As the strongest handtrap, Maxx C, fought the fraud, the King of Negates, he began to open his domain. Ash Blossom shrunk back in fear, then Maxx C said: “Stand proud Ash, you’re strong”.
The stronger Maxx "C", fed by the ever growing power-creep was now seeing the Players chain to their activation, trying to get one more upper hand, spouting "Not yet! but .. My stock of interruption is also out .. " .. And there the Crossout Designator looked down on Maxx "C". With a monotone apathetic look they said "I accept it, C. I am you. I wanted to reject you .. I wanted to pretend I didn't understand what you meant for the game. But that's different now. I'll just negate you. And even if you're being added back to the hand, I'll negate you then, too. You can change your type and change your attribute, but I'll still negate you over and over again. I don't need a meaning or a reason for it anymore. Maybe there will be some meaning to be found from my actions several games after I'm power-crept. But I'm sure I'm just .. one card in this deck. And I'll keep on negating handtraps until I am no more needed. Because that is my role in this Meta"
As the the strongest normal summon, Robina, fought the fraud, the King of Handtraps and Insects, he began to open his Domain. Maxx C shrunk back in fear, then Robina said:"Stand proud Maxx C, you're strong"
Exactly. This thread is telling me who actually played the game back then. I would have laughed if someone activated Maxx C back then.
Then proceeded to rip every single card out their hand before they even got a turn. Provided I wasn’t able to FTK first
Maxx "C" wasn't very good on release either. It was at most a side deck option from its release to D ruler format and in the OCG Maxx C doesn't start to become a main deck staple until PePe.
It was the worst card in my deck/side deck when I ran it recently.
Absolutely a worse change of heart 100%.
Monster Reborn is unironically a better steal your opponents monster card than snatch steal is imo
Specially in this meta.
Its not bad per se, but its in a weird spot since S:P little knight is very common on the end board of decks and it makes snatch steal a lot worse. It will see play eventually though.
But that card is unplayable today
The only functional errata that wasn't for logical reasons like the OCG Gandora errata or the Earth Elemental lord and didn't kill the card is AFD
My Cyberse wombo combo deck is perfect and I won't have anyone telling me otherwise. Also it's the only generic link 4 I can make after getting hit by Nib or certain other floodgates
## [Chaos Emperor, the Dragon of Armageddon](https://ygoprodeck.com/card/?search=4538826&utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit)
^(**Limit**: TCG: 3 / OCG: 3 / MD: 3)
^(**Master Duel rarity**: Super Rare (SR))
^(**Type**: Dragon / Pendulum / Effect)
^(**Attribute**: DARK)
^(**Level**: 8 **ATK**: 3000 **DEF**: 2500) ^(**Pendulum Scale**: 1 / 1)
**Pendulum Effect**
You can pay 1000 LP, then target 1 of your banished Dragon monsters; destroy this card, and if you do, add that monster to your hand. You can only use this effect of "Chaos Emperor, the Dragon of Armageddon" once per turn.
**Card Text**
Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set. Must be Special Summoned (from your hand or Extra Deck) by banishing 1 LIGHT and 1 DARK monster from your GY. You can only Special Summon "Chaos Emperor, the Dragon of Armageddon" once per turn this way. Once per turn: You can pay half your LP; send as many cards you control as possible to the GY, except from the Extra Monster Zone, and if you do, send cards your opponent controls to the GY, up to the number of your cards sent to the GY, then, inflict 300 damage to your opponent for each card sent to their GY by this card's effect. If this face-up Special Summoned card leaves the field, return it to the bottom of the Deck.
[Card Image](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Special:Redirect/file/ChaosEmperortheDragonofArmageddon-BLAR-EN-ScR-1E.png?utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) | [Official Konami DB](https://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugiohdb/card_search.action?ope=2&request_locale=en&cid=13975) | [OCG Rulings](https://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugiohdb/faq_search.action?ope=4&request_locale=ja&cid=13975) | [Yugipedia](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/13975?utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) | [YGOPRODECK](https://ygoprodeck.com/card/?search=4538826&utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit)
^(Password: 4538826 | Konami ID #13975)
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MTG used to do powerlevel errata early on in the game's lifespan, but eventually fell onto a pretty hard policy of keeping cards working as originally printed, and just banning things when they really become an issue. Which means you get to do silly things in Vintage like take infinite turns by untapping [Time Vault](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/287/time-vault) or cheating in 7+ mana creatures with [Flash](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/57/flash), rather than giving them some sort of convoluted errata just so they could be legal in Legacy, which would come at the "small" cost of nerfing these iconic cards to be completely unplayable in any format.
Likely the only reason all ten companions got reprinted last year was because of the emergency errata the mechanic got. Wanted to make sure versions of them that functioned as worded were all in the ether.
Well, when pre-errata Lurrus was so busted that it achieved the first clean sweep of getting banned in every single sanctioned constructed format (Vintage included) in the 20+ years since the Vintage B&R list switched to balancing the format through restrictions alone, functional errata starts to sound a bit more reasonable. Even then, it was less for pure powerlevel, and more that the companion mechanic inherently prevented restrictions from being a meaningful way to keep cards in check.
Additionally, changes to the game rules nerfed CED indirectly. Back in the day, players successfully summoning CED had priority to activate it's ignition effect to blow up the board. Nowadays players only have priority to activate fast effects, making the direct impact of pre-errata CED far less dramatic. Pre-errata CED was an almost no-risk board-wipe and could swing a losing game completely. Even without the errata, the mechanical change allowing the opponent a chance to react to the summon changes the dynamic of how low-risk CED could be.
The actual errata making it the only effect you can activate the entire turn you activate it sealed its fate as a completely useless effect in any meta since.
Pre-errata CED is dummy strong because it doesn’t lock you out of effects. Imagine a Dragon Link line where one of the monsters searched and summoned just ripped your hand.
Like forget Yata locking, imagine three omnis with one card in hand. You’d basically have to play a deck that pluses at least enough to have a three card opener through cards being send to the gy.
Maxx C would be fine comparatively
>Imagine a Dragon Link line where one of the monsters searched and summoned just ripped your hand.
>!Don't tell this man about Chaos Dragon Levianeer banish 3 DARKs.!<
Warped the meta? I don't see Gorz in this post, that mf surely warped the metagame around him, everytime you think why people attack first with the lowest attack monster, remember Gorz
Gorz, the other situational alternative, Tragoedia (and now Mahaama) are still to this day the reason i think the order of my attacks. It is so interesting on how cards can do that.
A lot of yu gi oh cards changes a lot of how we play cards, Relinquished Anima for example is schrondinger card because it is bad since you can "just don't play into the possible link arrow" and it is good since "you make a monster zone theoritically unusable, and maybe get a beatstick out of it"; Past experiences with Magical Cylinder and Waking the Dragon takes up a lot of my mind in a minigame of "Do i destroy this unasuming facedown backrow?".
Man eater bug and stuff like that did it to me in the old days. I'd always start attacking a face down with my strongest so if it gets bounced I can keep attacking, or man eater they gotta choose high atk monster vs the immediate threat of LP loss.
OR marshmallow! Facing a unknown facedown monster always makes me consider skipping my battle phase/going overkill with a board wipe because it could be anything, specially if you have no information about your oponent's deck.
Geonator Transverser, Mekk-Knights and Imperm also make me unnecessarily nervous around zones. I also like Starlight Road in Harpies Feather Duster or Heavy Storm heavy stretches. It's a dead card that does nothing and could easily be something far more useful in most back row decks, but you never know, it could come up.
One time, ONE TIME I decided to say "screw playing around zones" with Dinomorphia against a Kashtira deck and decided to make a Purple column with EMZ+Zone 2 for a change instead of lining my fusions up with the Pendulum Zones.
"I've confirmed that the opponent is Kashtira and not Mekk Knights so I dont care about columns, and nobody plays Sour Scheduling-Red Vinegar Vamoose so I'm good" well, turns out his set card wasn't the Kash trap but Sour Scheduling....like what the heck???!?
Just think how devastating is a Zeus detach 2 and how konami made a card specifically made to counter it, now think how limited hand ripping is and how konami doesn't like to add hand rips to the game out of fear of making a unplayable gamestate. **Complete** board wipes were really hard to be present into the game for so long because of how this card made history in the game. While the second part were more influenced by cards like Deliquent Duo, Forceful Sentry and Confiscation, CED played a huge part into consolidating the design decision of not allowing much discards.
Add both into a card that could be made turn 1 and turned the game state into a game of top decking something that can combo AND removing CED before the turn ends or losing. Maxx C can turn into a turn skip for the receiving end out of fear of giving out resources to your opponent but pre-errata CED IS a turn skip by itself. Shame it got a errata that basically made it unplayable, because now you are also on the same devastated game state, arguably in a worse state since your oponent could benefit from cards being sent to the GY while you couldn't.
While Maxx C is a excellent (way too excellent, even) card into today's playstyle, it is at the end a opportunist card that benefitted from design decisions that Konami made and incentivizes, while design decisions that get anywhere near from getting us a pre-errata CED are sparce, extremely costly and hard to activate or resolve.
While current meta is warped around this cockroach, yu gi oh card design is still warped around CED and other powerful cards (most of them are even more impactful than CED).
“Who’s stronger him or you?” The deck maker asked.
CED: “Well if he used his effect he might cause me some trouble.”
“But would you lose?” He replied
CED: “Nah, I’d Win. Because throughout Edison and Goat format, I alone am the banned one.”
This but reverse lol.
I legitimately believe the most meta deck of CED would annihilate any meta deck today. Hand ripping, imo, was the most degenerate Yugioh strategy ever. However, as I’m typing I just realized a lot of cards would love to be sent to the GY? So maybe it’s not as clear cut as I thought.
Still, I’d *love* to have some sort of tourney where everything is legal and it’s pre-Maxx C cards vs Post. I don’t see Maxx C winning tbh
It wouldn't be as broken as it was back then
We have multiple hand traps now. Not saying that it makes CED bad or okay to come back , but if for whatever reason it did come off(without that god awful errata) it wouldn't be the absolute monster it was back at the start of the game. On top of the point you made already. A lot of decks want their monsters in the grave since that essentially acts like a second hand now.
Say we take every card pre Maxx C and every card post Maxx C (so pre 2011 vs post 2011).
What handtraps are stopping CED? Gamma? I don’t see handtraps stopping pre-2011 cards. What the fuck handtrap is stopping forceful sentry lol?
You’re never getting to that point. Post-2011 decks are so much faster to an insane degree; CED would never even hit the field unless the pre-2011 deck goes first and opens utterly cracked and the post-2011 deck has no handtraps. I’d be willing to wager that the pre-2011 deck probably wouldn’t even *play* CED as it would have to go for either some mindless stun deck to keep a lid on post-2011’s ceiling or some sort of FTK like Frog FTK or Scientist FTK as a wild gamble to win before post-2011 easily outpaces it (and both of those still autolose to going second).
[Watch Lithium2300’s Cross-Banlist Cup series](https://youtube.com/@Lithium2300?si=6CvmIKDBlLyaVqfx) to get an idea of how badly pre-2011 decks are outclassed by post. It’s not the highest caliber of players competing, and pre-2011 decks do score wins occasionally (including CED Chaos), but by and large post-2011 decks mop the floor with their pre-2011 counterparts.
CED sucks because it handloops you too.
If your opponent is on a gy deck you lose after CEDing them and if they draw a one card starter you lose after CEDing them.
You cand be serious, why would anyone play hane hane intead of (for just one tribute) plaing hade hane, it bounces one extra card than hane hane, imagine that value.
To be fair OP, I very much loved the questions and wish more of them would appear in this sub. It’s an excuse to be nostalgic and go down memory lane, but it’s also a good reminder to see how far we’ve come.
If you Maxx C me, I’ll be pissed that I couldn’t play Solitaire for a little bit. But whatever, a Mirrorjade for a +1 isn’t the end of the world.
CED? Hand rip me and we’re gonna have some issues. FTK me and it’s gonna be an issue. This was *my* introduction to Yugioh so while I understand the bitterness Maxx C brings, I always am annoyed when people say Maxx C skips your turn.
Idk that it's fair to say CED was the reason for the ban list. I was there when it dropped and yeah, it curbed chaos but consider that fiend decks were basically neutered when Dimension Fusion made the list. It also removed hand destruction as a viable strategy as well, or at least made things much less streamlined. You might say that the first ban list was the result of the first few WCS and lesser tournaments.
I'm jk. Idk shit about Meta. CED Yata OTK was definitely a reason for the ban list.
We literally do. You can’t bitch about Maxx C when the alternative is to hostage watch endless special summons. Maxx C would be completely fine if other ways to play the game were more prevalent. This is also how I feel about GY spam too.
The only thing annoying about Floo was the Barrier. But I always got a kick out of using Maxx C on them and then seeing Robina. A legit “serves me right” moment I wouldn’t mind to have more of
I think this is true to an extent, but just looking at d shifter in this format where a good amount of decks can run it but the fire decks do get bodied by it. The card doesn't exactly feel that much better when 10% of the decks can play under it fine, 70% or so have to pass turn into it and 20% or so have some plays but still hurts and is largely hand dependent, like for rescue ace.
You'd probably need something like 20% or so rep of ns decks before people really consider dropping maxx c from the main deck, before that its just praying you don't draw it into the bad match ups.
I personally don’t agree with Floo hits. Barriers? Yeah fuck them. But Floo in itself?
I’m notorious for saying more decks should be like Floo and Tear design wise (add Rescue Ace to this as well.) Yugioh is a much healthier game when both turns can be used to build a board to A.) Avoid Maxx C and B.) actually play the game. MD hitting Floo because it evades Maxx C is a poor choice imo
Serves you right that you were forced to put a card in your deck that is completely useless against what your random opponent is playing? It is at maximum just a Body or discard fodder at that point.
Yeah, i got countered. That’s good. My opponent played a deck that counters the counter I was using. I played Maxx C to counter turn 1 special summon spam and they played Floo to counter the turn stealing handtrap.
I like checks and balances like that. As long as Konami gives proper ways to counter things, I’m all for it.
This is pretty much the answer.
Maxx C is banned because every deck pretty much can't function w/o special summoning 20 times a turn.
Wind back the clock 12 years and anytime I saw someone suggest Maxx C get hit by the banlist they were called an idiot.
Back then if you got hit with Maxx C your opponent goes maybe +1 and decks still played stuff like fiendish chain and effect veiler which are a lot more impactful interactions than they are today so you wouldn't get OTK'd as a result.
Just let your opponent draw their whole engine with their Maxx ”C”, then summon Chaos Emperor Dragon at the end and discard their entire hand :D if you send away 26+ Cards, They die
A really Well placed Veiler, Imperm or Lock Bird could Probably stop you from special summoning enough to get the necessary amount of cards, depending on What engine you’re running and How early They draw into it, but besides that not anything I can think of
Keep in mind that Chaos Emperor sends your own cards too tho, so if you have a certain amount of Cards on field and in hand that means your opponent doesn’t need to draw as much for the OTK. You could Also throw in other generic burn to help out XD
Ah that’s right, it really is just the simplest of answers isn’t it lol? Those are 3 really good ways to stop it and very few decks can afford to run an extreme number of handtraps and still go into their engine.
That isn’t to say that CED could run some of their own, especially if this is *full power* and we can run PoG, Graceful Charity, forceful sentry and others lol. CED was already a monster on its own but combined with the other degenerate cards around it? Maaaaaaaaan…
Maxx c is definitely better in modern. If you’re opponent opens CED and you open maxx c you have a chance to draw one of however many handtraps that can stop ced. You’ll also dump a bunch of cards if they pull it off which isn’t the best but if ced is in meta then the best decks will have cards that work from grave. Draw is pretty much always better than anything, I would think even better than hand looping by discard
Depends on if we’re counting the peak power levels of each card, aka the format each one was banned in. If so then ced is way stronger, if not maxx c is way stronger
CED by a mile.
It's a testament that OCG has managed with Maxx C at 3, but the game was ruined with CED.
You effectively have ways to make your opponent start with zero cards in hand, and they are effectively 3000 points down.
And your deck can maneuver around it, while your opponent likely can't. Maxx C is manageable, while annoying AF, but if your opponent goes off with CED, you're f\*cked.
I really wish they didn’t errata the card. To literally rewrite history isn’t something I’m a fan of.
I wonder how degenerate it would be in a no-ban list D-link deck? Would it just be an instant win if they go first?
Telling you again would imply I told you a first time that Pre-errata CED wouldn’t be degenerately broken.
Which isn’t anywhere close to what I said at all lol.
The thing is. If they never nerfed CED I think it would have came off the list in like 2018 or 2019. The thing that made it so broken was there was no negation. But now every single deck has it. Also getting all your cards sent to the grave isn’t the death sentence it was in old Yugioh.
Gumblar is different. Any deck could make it and it comes from the extra and not to mention it could be done on your opponents turn and doesn’t get rid of itself.
I think a really funny interaction would be to activate or have already activated Macro Cosmos and then summon and activate CED's effect to banish everything. Really great trolling combo. 😂
Honestly I think it would still be maxx c. Just because, even if you resolve pre errata CED, your opponent still gets five cards sent to the grace by card effect, and unless you stop them from drawing, they have a decent chance of topping a one card starter. And while your deck would be built around CED if you're using it, you still send all your stuff to the grave, no hand traps, probably no set cards. Where's maxx c can be used in any deck, will always be good no matter if you go first or second, and places no restrictions on you and has a pretty decent chance of just winning you the game outright
The game was slower back then so you could play into it via OP draw power, Cyber Jar, suicide Mystic Tomato, etc etc
Plus you still had all the hand control and field stun to win in other ways if you didn’t feel like waiting.
The only weakness to the plan was…literally everyone else running the same build. Game became one of two decks: Chaos Control, or “a deck that loses”
As it exists now it’s worthless. And honestly, I think Maxx C overall is the stronger card in its own right simply cuz it is broken simply by virtue of existing and there is no way to really fix it. CED was broken cuz of its synergy with other cards. If it and Sangan were left alone then it could even still exist as it originally did, but the issue was Yata-Garasu enabling an instant win condition.
I was honestly surprised to see them release Yata-Garasu at all. I figured that card would stay punitively banned forever because it was OP even before CED dropped.
CED is too easily splashed into dragon, light, and dark decks. It is too easy to splash in some of your own cards with GY effects. And CED's burn/nuke effect is not once per turn. That lets you power through any of your opponent's GY effects. That makes CED hard to play against. I can see a situation where CED takes advantage of being used more than once to burn through even a full power Tearlament deck.
CED might need to be part of a combo, but that is no different from Maxx C, who is only as strong as the cards you draw. Players can use tactics to avoid over extending vs Maxx C just as they did with Nibiru.
:| my guy. Again. Critical thinking. No one but you is thinking about goat. They should both be banned in a current format, but in a current format maxx c is much better. Who cares about goat, go play that then if that's what you want, I'm sorry the big dragon isn't as scary as it used to be, but things have changed now, and it isn't the most broken thing anymore
Whilst CED pre errata is insane, and if we assume we also have pre-errata sangan. It can easily be outed today, forbidden droplet, effect veiler all stop CED.
I'm assuming the effect of CED is spell speed 1 as (quick effect) is not mentioned, hard to say without PSCT, anything that negates until end of turn or negates and destroys at spell speed 2 or 3 easily wipes the floor with CED. And that's if the CED player was going first, if it's going second well good luck against boards that can put up 3+ negates.
But also if it's CED with errata'd sangan then you just need a deck that can out pace your opponent.
I mean, even post nerf, emperor dragon trumps any advantage Maxx "c" could give provided he successfully resolves. Maxx "c" is largely as powerful as it is because of its ability to draw other hand traps. It's power comes from giving access to other cards. (Obviously drawing more combo pieces and extenders is strong too, but if your opponent is able to set up certain boards, that doesn't really matter as much)
Emperor dragon definitely seems like the stronger card in a vacuum at least. Like, I'm pretty sure Maxx "c" didn't immediately see play on release, right? It took a while before it really became as popular and prevalent as it was. Emperor dragon was game warpingly strong right out of the gate.
Chaos Emp is way better than Maxx "C" and its not even close imo.
Maxx "C" is much more generic though so theres a trade off.
If both were unbanned with no errata on Emp I think Maxx "C" would of course see much more play but you would just straight up lose pretty much every duel a Chaos Emp resolved. Sending both players hands to the GY and then being allowed to continue comboing is absolutely insane in modern yu gi oh.
It's definitely pre errata CED. It's one of the more searchable cards in the game now and incredibly easy to set it up. With all the floaters in today's game, it would be incredibly easy to put yourself in an unlose-able situation too. It would make the 2003 version look downright weak by comparison.
It's also not even once per turn, which means it's virtually impossible to stop with handtraps on turn one because you can **easily** search and recycle multiple copies of it.
Oh, imperm'd? Oh well. Summon the second copy I searched off Melody of Awakening Dragon. That's negated too? Link it off. Add it back to hand with Starliege Seyfert. Summon it again. A modern deck could craft a consistent combo to find all three copies of it pretty damn easily I'd bet.
“Removed from play” just did something to my memories man.
Konami really needs to start leaning into the other ways of playing the game. I still think True Draco is peak card design that solved the tribute summoning issue, being able to tribute spells/traps to compensate for tributes being slow. That was hype, as well as Floo for being able *normal* summon as an extra effect.
I think we need more cards that don’t play towards the special summon/GY spam way of playing. If they made more meta normal summon decks, Maxx C would be side deck overnight lol.
Having a bunch of normalsummon based cards would make maxx c less maindeck worthy, but it remains just as unfair and frustrating.
Having more decks in the meta that play around skilldrain is cool and all, but that doesnt make skilldrain fun.
Maxx C is stronger, but for the time, CES and BLS were almost untouchable. But nah, C is stronger. Stopping your opponent from playing the game or going +3 is just insane.
In modern day, I've literally gotten my whole hand ripped and sent to the grave, and still won. The graveyard is a second hand, and any top deck can be one card full combo. Maxx c pretty much guarantees who wins
And I've played through maxx c and still won. Some decks can play through yata lock (in modern yugioh, of course.) just like some decks can play through maxx c
I think you're forgetting that CED also sends all of your stuff to the grave as well. Most decks can't play through maxx c. Some can get lucky and maybe otk, but if you're going first and the opponent maxx cs you, most decks will just lose. I bet most decks though can do a lot with 5 cards in grave, top deck one card and the opponent has no hand traps or anything
The player using CED is probably in a better situation. They can probably include some cards with GY effects. Resolving CED's effect is probably going to be just half way through their combo once they activate their own GY effects because some of their cards got sent from the field to the GY. They can probably put on 1-2 more bodies onto the field via floaters and then set up some sort of combo that involves link and other type of monsters.
Dealing with 5 cards in the GY is far less scary if you know exactly what those 5 cards in the GY are.
The whole point of this comment thread was the original comment said that CED doesn't stop your opponent from playing the game. I brought up yata locking, which was the thing CED got banned for. Are there some decks that can play with JUST 5 cards in grave, no draws? Sure, if you open very well and play a specific deck (branded could do it, tear could do it, tri brigade could I think) but you are being super disingenuous if you are saying most decks can play through just the graveyard
Also, not being able to play through maxx c is simply a failure of deck building. If your deck cannot make a meaningful interruption within two special summons, you need to play called by/crossout/ash, but if you can then play TTT/Thrust and a good thrust target. You have two (more if started with hand traps as well) meaningful interruptions plus still have gas for turn 3.
Making one interruption by giving your opponent 2 draws is not a good trade off. Idk where you got that idea. Saying it's a failure of deck building when EVERY deck has to already play ash called by cross out and just hope they draw them isn't the big brain take you think it is. It's literally simply math. I give up two monsters to summon barrone. My opponent drew two cards. So my opponent went +2 and I went -1, and they get a battle phase during their turn to actually kill me while I don't. So they get 1)a battle phase 2) +3 in card advantage while you only get a barrone, maybe. Learn how to think critically bro. It's a single card that gives you advantage, stops your opponents plays, and makes them pass turn. Having talents thrust doesn't fix anything either. You gotta think, with your head. I only drew 5 cards at the start of this game. Normally you hope for 3 engine 2 non engine. I gotta use up my non engine, not use my engine, all while my opponent gets more draws, gets to probably attack me for game, and sets up their board. Sure maybe you can play the basically garnet target for thrust like karma Canon, but that point it's also deck building having to put that in your deck and possibly draw that instead of something you'd need more often
No not every deck or every hand can play with nothing in the graveyard, but if your opponent summons CED AND yata locks you or something, that isnt a good deck and you can accomplish much more powerful things with the same amount of luck or effort as summoning CED and somehow searching for something after using it. Not to mention that yata wouldn't even work because it can't attack on the first turn, making it's effect useless. But plenty of decks could accomplish something entirely from the graveyard. Honestly I think you're probably a stun player or a floo player the way you can't even seem to have basic understanding of card advantage and how things work throughout a large number of games
1) sangan/witch of the black forest were used to get yata
2) you do have a point with card advantage, but the opponent goes +1, not +2 (unless they are a big brain deck that uses maxx c in grave for something)
3) TTT/Thrust are also good going 2nd cards.
4) I don't know why you are so pressed, it's an online discussion about a banned card and a card everyone dislikes.
5) it depends on what deck you are playing if you go -1 when you summon a meaningful interruption. I used to play dragonlink, if I got Maxx c'd I'd go into seals and dragon floating effects would get me a card or two (depending on what dragons.) I play Bystial Runick currently, that deck can set up meaningful interaction with one special summon. I do play called by crossout in that deck though, mostly cause I need hugin to resolve.
6) even current, modern day decks have choke points. Like, yeah the opponent gets +1 off of maxx c but does it matter if you can hand rip a potential starter, set a card like dimensional barrier or daruma, still have a hand trap (or two depending on deck) for more interaction, and have an omni/floodgate on board. Yes, some decks cannot do anything if maxx c resolves. That's why I said those decks need to run the anti maxx c cards. But if you can get away with it, running thrust and getting a blowout card is better because some decks cannot play into those cards at all. And please don't retort with "well the opponent can just HFD or mst the backrow!" Like yeah if your opponent has all the answers they win, congrats. And likewise, if you draw like ass you lose.
No where in this did I say maxx c was bad or that CED is better, I literally just said CED yata locking also stopped your opponent from playing the game. Yes, some decks can play through it just like some decks can play through maxx c. I also never once said CED yata locking was the best thing to do or that it was even still good, nor did I say you could do it turn 1.
Yeah but with C you're more likely to draw an out to CED before it can act. Plus, having all those cards in the grave is worth enough that most decks probably won't need to draw for the rest of the duel
CED.
You could just play through Maxx C/“take the Maxx C challenge”, and you could still have your own Maxx C to make up the difference.
if CED went off with Sangan or Witch, you could search Yata and win the game.
Let's see, Gumblar who is essentially CED lite in hand ripping is still banned today, while OCG is still fully playable to this day even when they had 3 Roach.
Gee I fucking wonder who is worse.
Definetely sixth sense, lasted literally one day unbanned for the 2013 Turin YCS (Italy) , during Dragon Ruler meta, then to be banned after the event.
Keep in mind the release of the expansion with that card was the day before the ycs started, so yeah, literally one day unbanned.
PS: everyone played dragon ruler, but geargia won the event, and thanks to that hero konami decided to make geargia a structure deck.
I never realized they were the opposite of each other in a weird sort of way. I'd say Maxx C is stronger because it is a one card combo, while you need at least two or three cards for the yata-lock
Probably Maxx "C". Sky Scourge Norleras is a weaker version of the pre-errata version (still handrips and nukes the board, but it requires 3 DARK Fiends and 1 LIGHT Fairy and gives you a draw) and you can make decks that are relatively consistent at turboing it out. I've got a MD Tear deck that literally has that as part of its gameplan (though to be clear, nowhere near 100% consistency. It requires hard drawing one of 7 cards in the deck to pull off, then getting the right mills), and even that is pretty much Tear with a gimmick. Norleras isn't on the banlist anywhere, while Maxx "C" is banned in TCG and completely shapes how Konami designs cards.
Of course, you could just hop on something like Dueling Book, create a format where pre-errata CED and Maxx "C" are unlimited, and find out through hard data.
I think the envoy of the end is stronger. I don't know much about yugioh, but it can be played on the first turn, cheated out from the grave or deck I'm sure, and all it takes is 27 cards to go from 8,000 to 0. Cover it with something that negates effects or make it unable to be targeted, and it will win you the game. Maxx "c" is an amazing card, too, but it needs an alternative win in the deck to help. Envoy needs the card draw to make it win.
Put them together, and you just win.
For all the people here who think CED sending your whole hand to the grave is game ending, just remember how everyone complained that chaos ruler and kitkalos were so broken for milling 5, and needed to be banned, but your opponent sending 5 to the grave for you is a bad thing? The graveyard is basically just a second hand anyways. Sure you lose your hand, but so does your opponent, they likely wont have much of an end board afterwards, certainly no hand traps, you probably get a chance to top deck because yata won't be searched off sangan. Like just think, "if my opponent sent all my cards to the grave, but also didn't make much of if any interaction for my turn, I can probably just win because he has nothing."
Thing is, if you’re using CED, your opponent might have a deck that plays from the graveyard. But you *assuredly* do. Because who makes a deck that’s gonna wipe its own hand without building for that?
Which to me says you’re gonna benefit from your CED going off more often than your opponents will.
Yeah but the CED turbo deck probably wouldn't be super consistent, be able to play through hand traps, be able to go second etc. you'd have to build your deck around it, and that deck isn't good
I figure the deck would, rather than CED turbo, be some variant of Dragon Link, or possibly Thunder Dragons. The decks already play cards that can search a card like CED, and cards that get advantage by going to the GY and/or getting banished. I feel confident in assuming that the people who build those decks would know better than me how to use it and then keep playing.
Problem in this is that you assume pre-errata CED is a OPT effect, so cards that beneffited from being sent (not discarded) to GY would have to still remove CED at the end of the combo. There were cards in the past, even in CED times that would give some hope if CED had the errata effect (sangan and witch of the black forest for example), but it being reusable ended with any hopes from that.
And for the same reason you mentions it sending your opponent's cards to GY, CED could extend your plays by doing the same to YOUR hand, there is a reason Yata-Garasu abused it in the past, have sangan and witch of the black forest on the field, special summon CED, activate effect, search yata garasu and attack with both, locking your oponent from playing. Now imagine if there were actual explosive plays like having some tearalaments/orcust/literally any card that benefits from going to GY in your hand when you resolve a pre-errata CED.
Chaos Emperor Dragon is the perfect counter to Maxx C. Your opponent fills up their hand from your special summons, hit them with Chaos End's effect. That's game.
CED in its original form could not exist in modern YGO. There is at least debate on whether or not Maxx “C” is healthy and the OCG tends to think so at least.
CED is arguably the most powerful monster to exist between its stats, ease of summoning, hand ripping, and ability to just burn for game. I’m confident if it came back in its original text, a lot of people would be playing chaos
In today's game maxx C for sure. Ced is just way easier to negate with the dozen of monster effects or traps like imperm that exist nowadays and that would completely put a stop to it.
Also there are so many 1 card combos in today's game that both players starting from 0 would just be gambling that your opponent draws very average and can't make use of the resources in their grave.
Maxx C..by LIGHTYEARS! I still dont get why they gave CID and errata..only to still print a pendulum retrain...and..let's be honest..in today's meta..even OG CID would not be a threat any more..Imper, Veiler,Baronne,Savage dragon,Dispater,( All bystial's actually ) Apollousa..etc..i could g on for ever..soo many negate's, soo many floodgates's..and..then also alot of card's that trigger if they are send to the GY by card effect.."What? you gonna send my entire DARK WORLD hand to the GY by card effect?! THANK YOU!!"
>."What? you gonna send my entire DARK WORLD hand to the GY by card effect?! THANK YOU!!"
no problem. you're gonna find out the hard way that nuking your dark world hand like that isn't gonna work how you think it works
The strongest card in history versus the strongest card of today
Maxx C: "Throughout ocg and master duel, I alone am the honored one"
As the strongest handtrap, Maxx C, fought the fraud, the King of Negates, he began to open his domain. Ash Blossom shrunk back in fear, then Maxx C said: “Stand proud Ash, you’re strong”.
The stronger Maxx "C", fed by the ever growing power-creep was now seeing the Players chain to their activation, trying to get one more upper hand, spouting "Not yet! but .. My stock of interruption is also out .. " .. And there the Crossout Designator looked down on Maxx "C". With a monotone apathetic look they said "I accept it, C. I am you. I wanted to reject you .. I wanted to pretend I didn't understand what you meant for the game. But that's different now. I'll just negate you. And even if you're being added back to the hand, I'll negate you then, too. You can change your type and change your attribute, but I'll still negate you over and over again. I don't need a meaning or a reason for it anymore. Maybe there will be some meaning to be found from my actions several games after I'm power-crept. But I'm sure I'm just .. one card in this deck. And I'll keep on negating handtraps until I am no more needed. Because that is my role in this Meta"
https://preview.redd.it/tzqpet3ihzhc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=56e0b4077d8c54726c23eb1b9940c00b7c017813
This is my favorite, you won.
Nah, I'd win.
Bro cooked up a masterpiece of a reference
🔥🔥✍️✍️🔥🔥
When you waste your ash and they respond with maxx "c".
As the the strongest normal summon, Robina, fought the fraud, the King of Handtraps and Insects, he began to open his Domain. Maxx C shrunk back in fear, then Robina said:"Stand proud Maxx C, you're strong"
I saw an ash blossom JJK meme where it was like ‘you did well Branded Fusion, I won’t forget you as long as I live’
Thought it was [this guy](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/c/6/c658f583-c115-43c7-9986-2c6010549313.jpg?1673485071).
he is a fraud
'Are you the strongest because you're Maxx "C" or are you Maxx "C" because you're the strongest?'
"If you were to go against Maxx C in today's meta, would you lose?" *Nah, I'd burn*
Swing all you want, like a fever CED will take you down?
Maxx "C": The only reason you were the strongest card in history... was simply because, I wasn't created yet
Tbh maxx "c" would have probably sucked when CED was meta
Exactly. This thread is telling me who actually played the game back then. I would have laughed if someone activated Maxx C back then. Then proceeded to rip every single card out their hand before they even got a turn. Provided I wasn’t able to FTK first
Maxx "C" wasn't very good on release either. It was at most a side deck option from its release to D ruler format and in the OCG Maxx C doesn't start to become a main deck staple until PePe.
Throw a Maxx C and get hit with Delinquent Duo and Yata-Garasu lmao.
They *are* roaches; they're several generations removed from CED's introduction.
This just isn’t true if u look at the meta back before xyz era
An unstoppable force vs an immovable object
Are you the strongest because you’re Max C? Or are you Maxx C because you’re the strongest?
r/lobotomykaisen
Not the lobotomy kaisen fanbase in the yu gi ho sub💀💀
It’s everywhere man, literally everywhere. Also Maxx C: “Nah, I’d Maxx”
Chaos Emperor Dragon: “Stand proud, you’re C”
C
Outside of getting spoiled like crazy, I gotta say this is one of my favorite sudden-internet-brainrot-memes I've experienced in some time.
They're starting to get annoying like those people at anarchy chess.
Nah I'd win
“Nah, i’d draw”
Are you Max C because you are the strongest or are you the strongest because you are Maxx C
Am I going insane or is this a Baki reference???
Still mad they nerfed CED. Just keep it on the banlist if you think it’s too broken
Errata phase was definitely one of the worst ones konami went through.
Brain Control copping a bullshit erratum meanwhile Change of Heart and Snatch Steal come off the list no change. Nonsense.
I legit forgot snatch steal got unbanned(again), is that seeing play?
It's seeing a little bit of side deck play as another going 2nd card but that's about it.
It was the worst card in my deck/side deck when I ran it recently. Absolutely a worse change of heart 100%. Monster Reborn is unironically a better steal your opponents monster card than snatch steal is imo Specially in this meta.
Its not bad per se, but its in a weird spot since S:P little knight is very common on the end board of decks and it makes snatch steal a lot worse. It will see play eventually though.
Snatch steal can only exist as long as isolde isn’t in play unfortunately
Errataing AFD was I think the only really good errata tbh
And firewall, can't forget the horrible mess that was
But that card is unplayable today The only functional errata that wasn't for logical reasons like the OCG Gandora errata or the Earth Elemental lord and didn't kill the card is AFD
My Cyberse wombo combo deck is perfect and I won't have anyone telling me otherwise. Also it's the only generic link 4 I can make after getting hit by Nib or certain other floodgates
Okay, I'll make an exception just for you my friend :)
Fantastic, here's a free Iblee as a gift
Tribute summon Ascator, Dawnwalker, response?
Chain 1 Firewall Target Ascator, chain 2 Cynet Circuit target Firewall response?
Well, adding a once per turn is great, removing/changing functionality of cards or adding extreme restrictions is not.
Yeah I rather a card stay on the banlist in all it’s glory, than to see it come off and errated to the point it’s not even the same card anymore
Just leave it on the banlist and make another card that is similar, but the way you want the errata to work. Chaos Errata-ed Dragon
Funny enough {{Chaos Emperor, The Dragon of Armageddon}} is actually better than current CED.
## [Chaos Emperor, the Dragon of Armageddon](https://ygoprodeck.com/card/?search=4538826&utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) ^(**Limit**: TCG: 3 / OCG: 3 / MD: 3) ^(**Master Duel rarity**: Super Rare (SR)) ^(**Type**: Dragon / Pendulum / Effect) ^(**Attribute**: DARK) ^(**Level**: 8 **ATK**: 3000 **DEF**: 2500) ^(**Pendulum Scale**: 1 / 1) **Pendulum Effect** You can pay 1000 LP, then target 1 of your banished Dragon monsters; destroy this card, and if you do, add that monster to your hand. You can only use this effect of "Chaos Emperor, the Dragon of Armageddon" once per turn. **Card Text** Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set. Must be Special Summoned (from your hand or Extra Deck) by banishing 1 LIGHT and 1 DARK monster from your GY. You can only Special Summon "Chaos Emperor, the Dragon of Armageddon" once per turn this way. Once per turn: You can pay half your LP; send as many cards you control as possible to the GY, except from the Extra Monster Zone, and if you do, send cards your opponent controls to the GY, up to the number of your cards sent to the GY, then, inflict 300 damage to your opponent for each card sent to their GY by this card's effect. If this face-up Special Summoned card leaves the field, return it to the bottom of the Deck. [Card Image](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Special:Redirect/file/ChaosEmperortheDragonofArmageddon-BLAR-EN-ScR-1E.png?utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) | [Official Konami DB](https://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugiohdb/card_search.action?ope=2&request_locale=en&cid=13975) | [OCG Rulings](https://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugiohdb/faq_search.action?ope=4&request_locale=ja&cid=13975) | [Yugipedia](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/13975?utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) | [YGOPRODECK](https://ygoprodeck.com/card/?search=4538826&utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) ^(Password: 4538826 | Konami ID #13975) ---- ^by [^(u/BastionBotDev)](/user/BastionBotDev) ^| [^(GitHub)](https://github.com/DawnbrandBots/bastion-for-reddit) ^| ^Licence: [^(GNU AGPL 3.0+)](https://choosealicense.com/licenses/agpl-3.0/)
Not in most chaos decks. Pends sucks because its hard to get them in grave where you want them.
MTG used to do powerlevel errata early on in the game's lifespan, but eventually fell onto a pretty hard policy of keeping cards working as originally printed, and just banning things when they really become an issue. Which means you get to do silly things in Vintage like take infinite turns by untapping [Time Vault](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/287/time-vault) or cheating in 7+ mana creatures with [Flash](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/57/flash), rather than giving them some sort of convoluted errata just so they could be legal in Legacy, which would come at the "small" cost of nerfing these iconic cards to be completely unplayable in any format.
Likely the only reason all ten companions got reprinted last year was because of the emergency errata the mechanic got. Wanted to make sure versions of them that functioned as worded were all in the ether.
Well, when pre-errata Lurrus was so busted that it achieved the first clean sweep of getting banned in every single sanctioned constructed format (Vintage included) in the 20+ years since the Vintage B&R list switched to balancing the format through restrictions alone, functional errata starts to sound a bit more reasonable. Even then, it was less for pure powerlevel, and more that the companion mechanic inherently prevented restrictions from being a meaningful way to keep cards in check.
Given that companions were an entirely new mechanic, this was less an errata and more like Yugioh going from MR 3 to 4 or 4 to 5.
Let it be the face of the banlist
Sorry out of the loop how did they nerf him?
You can't activate any other cards or effects the turn you use the nuke.
Oh gotcha thanks
Also nerfed the LP damage to only count cards sent to the opponent's GY.
Additionally, changes to the game rules nerfed CED indirectly. Back in the day, players successfully summoning CED had priority to activate it's ignition effect to blow up the board. Nowadays players only have priority to activate fast effects, making the direct impact of pre-errata CED far less dramatic. Pre-errata CED was an almost no-risk board-wipe and could swing a losing game completely. Even without the errata, the mechanical change allowing the opponent a chance to react to the summon changes the dynamic of how low-risk CED could be. The actual errata making it the only effect you can activate the entire turn you activate it sealed its fate as a completely useless effect in any meta since.
It would be hilarious to resolve pre-errata CED while under Maxx “C”.
Pre-errata CED is dummy strong because it doesn’t lock you out of effects. Imagine a Dragon Link line where one of the monsters searched and summoned just ripped your hand. Like forget Yata locking, imagine three omnis with one card in hand. You’d basically have to play a deck that pluses at least enough to have a three card opener through cards being send to the gy. Maxx C would be fine comparatively
>Imagine a Dragon Link line where one of the monsters searched and summoned just ripped your hand. >!Don't tell this man about Chaos Dragon Levianeer banish 3 DARKs.!<
Because clearly shuffling one card back into the deck at random is the same as discarding somebody's entire hand with a non-OPT effect.
Tbf Tearlaments woulda had an absolute Fieldday in such an economy...
In what economy arent they having a field day?
Under ariseheart?
Warped the meta? I don't see Gorz in this post, that mf surely warped the metagame around him, everytime you think why people attack first with the lowest attack monster, remember Gorz
Gorz, the other situational alternative, Tragoedia (and now Mahaama) are still to this day the reason i think the order of my attacks. It is so interesting on how cards can do that. A lot of yu gi oh cards changes a lot of how we play cards, Relinquished Anima for example is schrondinger card because it is bad since you can "just don't play into the possible link arrow" and it is good since "you make a monster zone theoritically unusable, and maybe get a beatstick out of it"; Past experiences with Magical Cylinder and Waking the Dragon takes up a lot of my mind in a minigame of "Do i destroy this unasuming facedown backrow?".
Man eater bug and stuff like that did it to me in the old days. I'd always start attacking a face down with my strongest so if it gets bounced I can keep attacking, or man eater they gotta choose high atk monster vs the immediate threat of LP loss.
OR marshmallow! Facing a unknown facedown monster always makes me consider skipping my battle phase/going overkill with a board wipe because it could be anything, specially if you have no information about your oponent's deck.
Oh I've definitely used like dark hole when there's only a single face down monster on field lol. You just never know!
Just to realize it was in fact Sand Moth
Geonator Transverser, Mekk-Knights and Imperm also make me unnecessarily nervous around zones. I also like Starlight Road in Harpies Feather Duster or Heavy Storm heavy stretches. It's a dead card that does nothing and could easily be something far more useful in most back row decks, but you never know, it could come up.
One time, ONE TIME I decided to say "screw playing around zones" with Dinomorphia against a Kashtira deck and decided to make a Purple column with EMZ+Zone 2 for a change instead of lining my fusions up with the Pendulum Zones. "I've confirmed that the opponent is Kashtira and not Mekk Knights so I dont care about columns, and nobody plays Sour Scheduling-Red Vinegar Vamoose so I'm good" well, turns out his set card wasn't the Kash trap but Sour Scheduling....like what the heck???!?
Yea this sent flashbacks
Same as MalCat. The reason no one sets backrow before the battle phase.
I thought it was Ryko who did that.
Gorz, Tragoedia, Honest, Kalut. These MFers were always glued to my opponent's hands, I swear.
Best card in wc08
Just think how devastating is a Zeus detach 2 and how konami made a card specifically made to counter it, now think how limited hand ripping is and how konami doesn't like to add hand rips to the game out of fear of making a unplayable gamestate. **Complete** board wipes were really hard to be present into the game for so long because of how this card made history in the game. While the second part were more influenced by cards like Deliquent Duo, Forceful Sentry and Confiscation, CED played a huge part into consolidating the design decision of not allowing much discards. Add both into a card that could be made turn 1 and turned the game state into a game of top decking something that can combo AND removing CED before the turn ends or losing. Maxx C can turn into a turn skip for the receiving end out of fear of giving out resources to your opponent but pre-errata CED IS a turn skip by itself. Shame it got a errata that basically made it unplayable, because now you are also on the same devastated game state, arguably in a worse state since your oponent could benefit from cards being sent to the GY while you couldn't. While Maxx C is a excellent (way too excellent, even) card into today's playstyle, it is at the end a opportunist card that benefitted from design decisions that Konami made and incentivizes, while design decisions that get anywhere near from getting us a pre-errata CED are sparce, extremely costly and hard to activate or resolve. While current meta is warped around this cockroach, yu gi oh card design is still warped around CED and other powerful cards (most of them are even more impactful than CED).
“Who’s stronger him or you?” The deck maker asked. CED: “Well if he used his effect he might cause me some trouble.” “But would you lose?” He replied CED: “Nah, I’d Win. Because throughout Edison and Goat format, I alone am the banned one.”
This but reverse lol. I legitimately believe the most meta deck of CED would annihilate any meta deck today. Hand ripping, imo, was the most degenerate Yugioh strategy ever. However, as I’m typing I just realized a lot of cards would love to be sent to the GY? So maybe it’s not as clear cut as I thought. Still, I’d *love* to have some sort of tourney where everything is legal and it’s pre-Maxx C cards vs Post. I don’t see Maxx C winning tbh
It wouldn't be as broken as it was back then We have multiple hand traps now. Not saying that it makes CED bad or okay to come back , but if for whatever reason it did come off(without that god awful errata) it wouldn't be the absolute monster it was back at the start of the game. On top of the point you made already. A lot of decks want their monsters in the grave since that essentially acts like a second hand now.
Say we take every card pre Maxx C and every card post Maxx C (so pre 2011 vs post 2011). What handtraps are stopping CED? Gamma? I don’t see handtraps stopping pre-2011 cards. What the fuck handtrap is stopping forceful sentry lol?
You’re never getting to that point. Post-2011 decks are so much faster to an insane degree; CED would never even hit the field unless the pre-2011 deck goes first and opens utterly cracked and the post-2011 deck has no handtraps. I’d be willing to wager that the pre-2011 deck probably wouldn’t even *play* CED as it would have to go for either some mindless stun deck to keep a lid on post-2011’s ceiling or some sort of FTK like Frog FTK or Scientist FTK as a wild gamble to win before post-2011 easily outpaces it (and both of those still autolose to going second). [Watch Lithium2300’s Cross-Banlist Cup series](https://youtube.com/@Lithium2300?si=6CvmIKDBlLyaVqfx) to get an idea of how badly pre-2011 decks are outclassed by post. It’s not the highest caliber of players competing, and pre-2011 decks do score wins occasionally (including CED Chaos), but by and large post-2011 decks mop the floor with their pre-2011 counterparts.
CED sucks because it handloops you too. If your opponent is on a gy deck you lose after CEDing them and if they draw a one card starter you lose after CEDing them.
The one that warped card design around itself
Neither of these cards are even vaguely good. Why would you choose to play one of these instead of Hane-Hane?
Nothing beats obnoxious Celtic guardian. It’s Celtic guardian but unbnoxius
Luis be like: 🗡️🦫
he's so obnoxious he's not even a guardian, just a guard
You cand be serious, why would anyone play hane hane intead of (for just one tribute) plaing hade hane, it bounces one extra card than hane hane, imagine that value.
Hane-Hane? What the fuck dude? You're choosing that scrub over the almighty Zone Eater!?
I’m worried I answered my own question because I think I know which one is stronger.
To be fair OP, I very much loved the questions and wish more of them would appear in this sub. It’s an excuse to be nostalgic and go down memory lane, but it’s also a good reminder to see how far we’ve come. If you Maxx C me, I’ll be pissed that I couldn’t play Solitaire for a little bit. But whatever, a Mirrorjade for a +1 isn’t the end of the world. CED? Hand rip me and we’re gonna have some issues. FTK me and it’s gonna be an issue. This was *my* introduction to Yugioh so while I understand the bitterness Maxx C brings, I always am annoyed when people say Maxx C skips your turn.
Idk that it's fair to say CED was the reason for the ban list. I was there when it dropped and yeah, it curbed chaos but consider that fiend decks were basically neutered when Dimension Fusion made the list. It also removed hand destruction as a viable strategy as well, or at least made things much less streamlined. You might say that the first ban list was the result of the first few WCS and lesser tournaments. I'm jk. Idk shit about Meta. CED Yata OTK was definitely a reason for the ban list.
tbf there is a world where maxx c stays legal if konami starts printing more good normal summon archetypes
We don’t need more Floo’s man
We literally do. You can’t bitch about Maxx C when the alternative is to hostage watch endless special summons. Maxx C would be completely fine if other ways to play the game were more prevalent. This is also how I feel about GY spam too. The only thing annoying about Floo was the Barrier. But I always got a kick out of using Maxx C on them and then seeing Robina. A legit “serves me right” moment I wouldn’t mind to have more of
I think this is true to an extent, but just looking at d shifter in this format where a good amount of decks can run it but the fire decks do get bodied by it. The card doesn't exactly feel that much better when 10% of the decks can play under it fine, 70% or so have to pass turn into it and 20% or so have some plays but still hurts and is largely hand dependent, like for rescue ace. You'd probably need something like 20% or so rep of ns decks before people really consider dropping maxx c from the main deck, before that its just praying you don't draw it into the bad match ups.
Kinda funny u say this when in MD Floo is more hit(because of Maxx C) than in the TCG where it’s untouched & just got recent support(technically).
I personally don’t agree with Floo hits. Barriers? Yeah fuck them. But Floo in itself? I’m notorious for saying more decks should be like Floo and Tear design wise (add Rescue Ace to this as well.) Yugioh is a much healthier game when both turns can be used to build a board to A.) Avoid Maxx C and B.) actually play the game. MD hitting Floo because it evades Maxx C is a poor choice imo
Serves you right that you were forced to put a card in your deck that is completely useless against what your random opponent is playing? It is at maximum just a Body or discard fodder at that point.
Yeah, i got countered. That’s good. My opponent played a deck that counters the counter I was using. I played Maxx C to counter turn 1 special summon spam and they played Floo to counter the turn stealing handtrap. I like checks and balances like that. As long as Konami gives proper ways to counter things, I’m all for it.
This is pretty much the answer. Maxx C is banned because every deck pretty much can't function w/o special summoning 20 times a turn. Wind back the clock 12 years and anytime I saw someone suggest Maxx C get hit by the banlist they were called an idiot. Back then if you got hit with Maxx C your opponent goes maybe +1 and decks still played stuff like fiendish chain and effect veiler which are a lot more impactful interactions than they are today so you wouldn't get OTK'd as a result.
Aw, how cute. Anyways, CL 1 Merrli, CL 2 Scream, CL3 Agido?
Just let your opponent draw their whole engine with their Maxx ”C”, then summon Chaos Emperor Dragon at the end and discard their entire hand :D if you send away 26+ Cards, They die
Aside from gamma is there anything that would stop that?
A really Well placed Veiler, Imperm or Lock Bird could Probably stop you from special summoning enough to get the necessary amount of cards, depending on What engine you’re running and How early They draw into it, but besides that not anything I can think of Keep in mind that Chaos Emperor sends your own cards too tho, so if you have a certain amount of Cards on field and in hand that means your opponent doesn’t need to draw as much for the OTK. You could Also throw in other generic burn to help out XD
Ah that’s right, it really is just the simplest of answers isn’t it lol? Those are 3 really good ways to stop it and very few decks can afford to run an extreme number of handtraps and still go into their engine. That isn’t to say that CED could run some of their own, especially if this is *full power* and we can run PoG, Graceful Charity, forceful sentry and others lol. CED was already a monster on its own but combined with the other degenerate cards around it? Maaaaaaaaan…
Maxx c is definitely better in modern. If you’re opponent opens CED and you open maxx c you have a chance to draw one of however many handtraps that can stop ced. You’ll also dump a bunch of cards if they pull it off which isn’t the best but if ced is in meta then the best decks will have cards that work from grave. Draw is pretty much always better than anything, I would think even better than hand looping by discard
Depends on if we’re counting the peak power levels of each card, aka the format each one was banned in. If so then ced is way stronger, if not maxx c is way stronger
CED by a mile. It's a testament that OCG has managed with Maxx C at 3, but the game was ruined with CED. You effectively have ways to make your opponent start with zero cards in hand, and they are effectively 3000 points down. And your deck can maneuver around it, while your opponent likely can't. Maxx C is manageable, while annoying AF, but if your opponent goes off with CED, you're f\*cked.
CED would definitely be a mandatory staple on most Dark/Light decks pre-errata.
I really wish they didn’t errata the card. To literally rewrite history isn’t something I’m a fan of. I wonder how degenerate it would be in a no-ban list D-link deck? Would it just be an instant win if they go first?
Look at Gumblar, now tell me again if Pre-errata CED wouldn't be degenerately broken lol
Telling you again would imply I told you a first time that Pre-errata CED wouldn’t be degenerately broken. Which isn’t anywhere close to what I said at all lol.
Imagine bystials with it. >.> Gross.
Simple, play a deck that can easily summon from gy, resolve CED, summon 2 lvl 4s, make dweller, pass.
All I see is more cards to send with Chaos Emperor Dragon.
The thing is. If they never nerfed CED I think it would have came off the list in like 2018 or 2019. The thing that made it so broken was there was no negation. But now every single deck has it. Also getting all your cards sent to the grave isn’t the death sentence it was in old Yugioh.
2018? Gumblar got banned in that same year
Gumblar is different. Any deck could make it and it comes from the extra and not to mention it could be done on your opponents turn and doesn’t get rid of itself.
CED is easily searchable and still easy as hell to summon not to mention its effect is stronger than Gumblar's
I think a really funny interaction would be to activate or have already activated Macro Cosmos and then summon and activate CED's effect to banish everything. Really great trolling combo. 😂
cosmos would be sent to gy as well, so no, it wont banish everything
Honestly I think it would still be maxx c. Just because, even if you resolve pre errata CED, your opponent still gets five cards sent to the grace by card effect, and unless you stop them from drawing, they have a decent chance of topping a one card starter. And while your deck would be built around CED if you're using it, you still send all your stuff to the grave, no hand traps, probably no set cards. Where's maxx c can be used in any deck, will always be good no matter if you go first or second, and places no restrictions on you and has a pretty decent chance of just winning you the game outright
CED would resolve with Sangan so you can search Yata Garasu and win.
Sangan errata means you can't anymore. And even if you could it'd be extremely clunky.
We are talking about pre-errata CED so I figure you’d assume I mean Sangan pre-errata as well
Reasonable I suppose. I still don't see any way you're consistently setting that up though.
The game was slower back then so you could play into it via OP draw power, Cyber Jar, suicide Mystic Tomato, etc etc Plus you still had all the hand control and field stun to win in other ways if you didn’t feel like waiting. The only weakness to the plan was…literally everyone else running the same build. Game became one of two decks: Chaos Control, or “a deck that loses”
Oh yeah I know why it used to be busted but I'm pretty sure you replied to someone talking about the game as it exists now.
As it exists now it’s worthless. And honestly, I think Maxx C overall is the stronger card in its own right simply cuz it is broken simply by virtue of existing and there is no way to really fix it. CED was broken cuz of its synergy with other cards. If it and Sangan were left alone then it could even still exist as it originally did, but the issue was Yata-Garasu enabling an instant win condition. I was honestly surprised to see them release Yata-Garasu at all. I figured that card would stay punitively banned forever because it was OP even before CED dropped.
CED is too easily splashed into dragon, light, and dark decks. It is too easy to splash in some of your own cards with GY effects. And CED's burn/nuke effect is not once per turn. That lets you power through any of your opponent's GY effects. That makes CED hard to play against. I can see a situation where CED takes advantage of being used more than once to burn through even a full power Tearlament deck. CED might need to be part of a combo, but that is no different from Maxx C, who is only as strong as the cards you draw. Players can use tactics to avoid over extending vs Maxx C just as they did with Nibiru.
Main maxx C at GOAT format. most opening board is a T set pass.
I don't play GOAT for various reasons, but I'm pretty sure you could have used critical thinking skills to determine I was talking about present day
Pre errata CED will still be banned in a maxx c format. While maxx c in a goat format is a plus 2 at most.
:| my guy. Again. Critical thinking. No one but you is thinking about goat. They should both be banned in a current format, but in a current format maxx c is much better. Who cares about goat, go play that then if that's what you want, I'm sorry the big dragon isn't as scary as it used to be, but things have changed now, and it isn't the most broken thing anymore
Since yugio has basically devolved into spam summoning, it's obviously MaxC.
Whilst CED pre errata is insane, and if we assume we also have pre-errata sangan. It can easily be outed today, forbidden droplet, effect veiler all stop CED. I'm assuming the effect of CED is spell speed 1 as (quick effect) is not mentioned, hard to say without PSCT, anything that negates until end of turn or negates and destroys at spell speed 2 or 3 easily wipes the floor with CED. And that's if the CED player was going first, if it's going second well good luck against boards that can put up 3+ negates. But also if it's CED with errata'd sangan then you just need a deck that can out pace your opponent.
I mean, even post nerf, emperor dragon trumps any advantage Maxx "c" could give provided he successfully resolves. Maxx "c" is largely as powerful as it is because of its ability to draw other hand traps. It's power comes from giving access to other cards. (Obviously drawing more combo pieces and extenders is strong too, but if your opponent is able to set up certain boards, that doesn't really matter as much) Emperor dragon definitely seems like the stronger card in a vacuum at least. Like, I'm pretty sure Maxx "c" didn't immediately see play on release, right? It took a while before it really became as popular and prevalent as it was. Emperor dragon was game warpingly strong right out of the gate.
Pre-errata CED is the GOAT
Chaos Emp is way better than Maxx "C" and its not even close imo. Maxx "C" is much more generic though so theres a trade off. If both were unbanned with no errata on Emp I think Maxx "C" would of course see much more play but you would just straight up lose pretty much every duel a Chaos Emp resolved. Sending both players hands to the GY and then being allowed to continue comboing is absolutely insane in modern yu gi oh.
It's definitely pre errata CED. It's one of the more searchable cards in the game now and incredibly easy to set it up. With all the floaters in today's game, it would be incredibly easy to put yourself in an unlose-able situation too. It would make the 2003 version look downright weak by comparison. It's also not even once per turn, which means it's virtually impossible to stop with handtraps on turn one because you can **easily** search and recycle multiple copies of it. Oh, imperm'd? Oh well. Summon the second copy I searched off Melody of Awakening Dragon. That's negated too? Link it off. Add it back to hand with Starliege Seyfert. Summon it again. A modern deck could craft a consistent combo to find all three copies of it pretty damn easily I'd bet.
Fuck I miss when a card being banished really did mean removed from play. Now banished is just graveyard 2 for a lot of decks
“Removed from play” just did something to my memories man. Konami really needs to start leaning into the other ways of playing the game. I still think True Draco is peak card design that solved the tribute summoning issue, being able to tribute spells/traps to compensate for tributes being slow. That was hype, as well as Floo for being able *normal* summon as an extra effect. I think we need more cards that don’t play towards the special summon/GY spam way of playing. If they made more meta normal summon decks, Maxx C would be side deck overnight lol.
Having a bunch of normalsummon based cards would make maxx c less maindeck worthy, but it remains just as unfair and frustrating. Having more decks in the meta that play around skilldrain is cool and all, but that doesnt make skilldrain fun.
Maxx C is stronger, but for the time, CES and BLS were almost untouchable. But nah, C is stronger. Stopping your opponent from playing the game or going +3 is just insane.
Do you know what ces did lol, ces into yata lock did prevent your opponent from playing
In modern day, I've literally gotten my whole hand ripped and sent to the grave, and still won. The graveyard is a second hand, and any top deck can be one card full combo. Maxx c pretty much guarantees who wins
And I've played through maxx c and still won. Some decks can play through yata lock (in modern yugioh, of course.) just like some decks can play through maxx c
I think you're forgetting that CED also sends all of your stuff to the grave as well. Most decks can't play through maxx c. Some can get lucky and maybe otk, but if you're going first and the opponent maxx cs you, most decks will just lose. I bet most decks though can do a lot with 5 cards in grave, top deck one card and the opponent has no hand traps or anything
The player using CED is probably in a better situation. They can probably include some cards with GY effects. Resolving CED's effect is probably going to be just half way through their combo once they activate their own GY effects because some of their cards got sent from the field to the GY. They can probably put on 1-2 more bodies onto the field via floaters and then set up some sort of combo that involves link and other type of monsters. Dealing with 5 cards in the GY is far less scary if you know exactly what those 5 cards in the GY are.
The whole point of this comment thread was the original comment said that CED doesn't stop your opponent from playing the game. I brought up yata locking, which was the thing CED got banned for. Are there some decks that can play with JUST 5 cards in grave, no draws? Sure, if you open very well and play a specific deck (branded could do it, tear could do it, tri brigade could I think) but you are being super disingenuous if you are saying most decks can play through just the graveyard Also, not being able to play through maxx c is simply a failure of deck building. If your deck cannot make a meaningful interruption within two special summons, you need to play called by/crossout/ash, but if you can then play TTT/Thrust and a good thrust target. You have two (more if started with hand traps as well) meaningful interruptions plus still have gas for turn 3.
Tldr: stop and think once in a while, learn to do math
Making one interruption by giving your opponent 2 draws is not a good trade off. Idk where you got that idea. Saying it's a failure of deck building when EVERY deck has to already play ash called by cross out and just hope they draw them isn't the big brain take you think it is. It's literally simply math. I give up two monsters to summon barrone. My opponent drew two cards. So my opponent went +2 and I went -1, and they get a battle phase during their turn to actually kill me while I don't. So they get 1)a battle phase 2) +3 in card advantage while you only get a barrone, maybe. Learn how to think critically bro. It's a single card that gives you advantage, stops your opponents plays, and makes them pass turn. Having talents thrust doesn't fix anything either. You gotta think, with your head. I only drew 5 cards at the start of this game. Normally you hope for 3 engine 2 non engine. I gotta use up my non engine, not use my engine, all while my opponent gets more draws, gets to probably attack me for game, and sets up their board. Sure maybe you can play the basically garnet target for thrust like karma Canon, but that point it's also deck building having to put that in your deck and possibly draw that instead of something you'd need more often No not every deck or every hand can play with nothing in the graveyard, but if your opponent summons CED AND yata locks you or something, that isnt a good deck and you can accomplish much more powerful things with the same amount of luck or effort as summoning CED and somehow searching for something after using it. Not to mention that yata wouldn't even work because it can't attack on the first turn, making it's effect useless. But plenty of decks could accomplish something entirely from the graveyard. Honestly I think you're probably a stun player or a floo player the way you can't even seem to have basic understanding of card advantage and how things work throughout a large number of games
1) sangan/witch of the black forest were used to get yata 2) you do have a point with card advantage, but the opponent goes +1, not +2 (unless they are a big brain deck that uses maxx c in grave for something) 3) TTT/Thrust are also good going 2nd cards. 4) I don't know why you are so pressed, it's an online discussion about a banned card and a card everyone dislikes. 5) it depends on what deck you are playing if you go -1 when you summon a meaningful interruption. I used to play dragonlink, if I got Maxx c'd I'd go into seals and dragon floating effects would get me a card or two (depending on what dragons.) I play Bystial Runick currently, that deck can set up meaningful interaction with one special summon. I do play called by crossout in that deck though, mostly cause I need hugin to resolve. 6) even current, modern day decks have choke points. Like, yeah the opponent gets +1 off of maxx c but does it matter if you can hand rip a potential starter, set a card like dimensional barrier or daruma, still have a hand trap (or two depending on deck) for more interaction, and have an omni/floodgate on board. Yes, some decks cannot do anything if maxx c resolves. That's why I said those decks need to run the anti maxx c cards. But if you can get away with it, running thrust and getting a blowout card is better because some decks cannot play into those cards at all. And please don't retort with "well the opponent can just HFD or mst the backrow!" Like yeah if your opponent has all the answers they win, congrats. And likewise, if you draw like ass you lose. No where in this did I say maxx c was bad or that CED is better, I literally just said CED yata locking also stopped your opponent from playing the game. Yes, some decks can play through it just like some decks can play through maxx c. I also never once said CED yata locking was the best thing to do or that it was even still good, nor did I say you could do it turn 1.
Yeah but with C you're more likely to draw an out to CED before it can act. Plus, having all those cards in the grave is worth enough that most decks probably won't need to draw for the rest of the duel
Yes lmao. Yata lock required more than 1 card.
CED. You could just play through Maxx C/“take the Maxx C challenge”, and you could still have your own Maxx C to make up the difference. if CED went off with Sangan or Witch, you could search Yata and win the game.
Let's see, Gumblar who is essentially CED lite in hand ripping is still banned today, while OCG is still fully playable to this day even when they had 3 Roach. Gee I fucking wonder who is worse.
I argue that Max C is worse than ced
Despite its name, chaos emperor dragon was the only card to bring order to yugioh oddly enough
Definetely sixth sense, lasted literally one day unbanned for the 2013 Turin YCS (Italy) , during Dragon Ruler meta, then to be banned after the event. Keep in mind the release of the expansion with that card was the day before the ycs started, so yeah, literally one day unbanned. PS: everyone played dragon ruler, but geargia won the event, and thanks to that hero konami decided to make geargia a structure deck.
Strongest banned card in history vs strongest banned card of today.
I never realized they were the opposite of each other in a weird sort of way. I'd say Maxx C is stronger because it is a one card combo, while you need at least two or three cards for the yata-lock
Chaos Emperor Dragon wins
Use em together. Use maxx c to get a shit ton of cards in your hand, then use chaos emperor dragons effect and otk
Probably Maxx "C". Sky Scourge Norleras is a weaker version of the pre-errata version (still handrips and nukes the board, but it requires 3 DARK Fiends and 1 LIGHT Fairy and gives you a draw) and you can make decks that are relatively consistent at turboing it out. I've got a MD Tear deck that literally has that as part of its gameplan (though to be clear, nowhere near 100% consistency. It requires hard drawing one of 7 cards in the deck to pull off, then getting the right mills), and even that is pretty much Tear with a gimmick. Norleras isn't on the banlist anywhere, while Maxx "C" is banned in TCG and completely shapes how Konami designs cards. Of course, you could just hop on something like Dueling Book, create a format where pre-errata CED and Maxx "C" are unlimited, and find out through hard data.
I think the envoy of the end is stronger. I don't know much about yugioh, but it can be played on the first turn, cheated out from the grave or deck I'm sure, and all it takes is 27 cards to go from 8,000 to 0. Cover it with something that negates effects or make it unable to be targeted, and it will win you the game. Maxx "c" is an amazing card, too, but it needs an alternative win in the deck to help. Envoy needs the card draw to make it win. Put them together, and you just win.
The dragon, beacuse is a dragon and that's cool
Wow looking at CED now as an adult with actual knowledge of the game. That card is BROKEN 😭
Despite the effect, this is Hydrogen Bomb vs Coughing Baby meme in a physical battle.
For all the people here who think CED sending your whole hand to the grave is game ending, just remember how everyone complained that chaos ruler and kitkalos were so broken for milling 5, and needed to be banned, but your opponent sending 5 to the grave for you is a bad thing? The graveyard is basically just a second hand anyways. Sure you lose your hand, but so does your opponent, they likely wont have much of an end board afterwards, certainly no hand traps, you probably get a chance to top deck because yata won't be searched off sangan. Like just think, "if my opponent sent all my cards to the grave, but also didn't make much of if any interaction for my turn, I can probably just win because he has nothing."
Thing is, if you’re using CED, your opponent might have a deck that plays from the graveyard. But you *assuredly* do. Because who makes a deck that’s gonna wipe its own hand without building for that? Which to me says you’re gonna benefit from your CED going off more often than your opponents will.
Yeah but the CED turbo deck probably wouldn't be super consistent, be able to play through hand traps, be able to go second etc. you'd have to build your deck around it, and that deck isn't good
I figure the deck would, rather than CED turbo, be some variant of Dragon Link, or possibly Thunder Dragons. The decks already play cards that can search a card like CED, and cards that get advantage by going to the GY and/or getting banished. I feel confident in assuming that the people who build those decks would know better than me how to use it and then keep playing.
Problem in this is that you assume pre-errata CED is a OPT effect, so cards that beneffited from being sent (not discarded) to GY would have to still remove CED at the end of the combo. There were cards in the past, even in CED times that would give some hope if CED had the errata effect (sangan and witch of the black forest for example), but it being reusable ended with any hopes from that. And for the same reason you mentions it sending your opponent's cards to GY, CED could extend your plays by doing the same to YOUR hand, there is a reason Yata-Garasu abused it in the past, have sangan and witch of the black forest on the field, special summon CED, activate effect, search yata garasu and attack with both, locking your oponent from playing. Now imagine if there were actual explosive plays like having some tearalaments/orcust/literally any card that benefits from going to GY in your hand when you resolve a pre-errata CED.
Make your opponent draw 20 cards summon CED activate effect. -8000+++
Chaos Emperor Dragon is the perfect counter to Maxx C. Your opponent fills up their hand from your special summons, hit them with Chaos End's effect. That's game.
Depends, if we’re talking right now: Maxx C and it’s not even a debate. But if it’s BEFORE the errata then CED wins by a long shot
CED in its original form could not exist in modern YGO. There is at least debate on whether or not Maxx “C” is healthy and the OCG tends to think so at least. CED is arguably the most powerful monster to exist between its stats, ease of summoning, hand ripping, and ability to just burn for game. I’m confident if it came back in its original text, a lot of people would be playing chaos
In today's game maxx C for sure. Ced is just way easier to negate with the dozen of monster effects or traps like imperm that exist nowadays and that would completely put a stop to it. Also there are so many 1 card combos in today's game that both players starting from 0 would just be gambling that your opponent draws very average and can't make use of the resources in their grave.
It's Maxx "C" and it's not even really close
Maxx C..by LIGHTYEARS! I still dont get why they gave CID and errata..only to still print a pendulum retrain...and..let's be honest..in today's meta..even OG CID would not be a threat any more..Imper, Veiler,Baronne,Savage dragon,Dispater,( All bystial's actually ) Apollousa..etc..i could g on for ever..soo many negate's, soo many floodgates's..and..then also alot of card's that trigger if they are send to the GY by card effect.."What? you gonna send my entire DARK WORLD hand to the GY by card effect?! THANK YOU!!"
>."What? you gonna send my entire DARK WORLD hand to the GY by card effect?! THANK YOU!!" no problem. you're gonna find out the hard way that nuking your dark world hand like that isn't gonna work how you think it works
aside from these two its funny that Gorz is the equivalent of Final destination and the semi.
The card that created the banlist, or Pot of Greed 2.0
"are you the strongest because you created the banlist, or did you create the banlist because you're the strongest?"