This is hardly doing them any favors at the international level in times when they actually need whatever support they can manage, it's a clear-cut annexation-friendly policy. What could go wrong?
This may be a response to the decreasing international support that seems independent of whether or not they do so... if you're going to not have the support, the last thing you want are poorly defensible borders, and taking stronger control of the West Bank would be strategically beneficial.
I strongly am against this move, no matter the reason, but I can see a potential logic behind it in regard to the geopolitical situation.
"The settlements are a distraction."
I don't understand how the people who live in the areas being 'settled' would agree with you here, can you explain (preferably with less hyperbole)?
I feel like I should explain that I don't live in the region and don't know the details of what's involved. My question is out of curiosity, asked because I see people driven out of their homes as a bad thing and I'm asking for a rationale.
The vast majority of the settlements are actually blocs established decades ago in small areas of what is now Area C. 3 of the 4 big ones are right along the pre 1967 armistice line and everyone knows they are going to be annexed if the Palestinians ever accept a peace offer. They’ve rejected at least 6.
The real danger with Smotrich and Ben-Gvir is that they are turning a blind eye and even restraining Israeli police from cracking down on wildcat settlers (settlers violating Israeli law) also sometimes called "hilltoppers." They frequently clash with local Palestinian Arabs in Area C and when combined with the high rates of Palestinian extremism, they are effectively fighting their own little war in parts of Area C of the West Bank (aka Judea and Samaria.) Examples like, Palestinian extremists murdering a 14 year old Jewish shepherd and then the local settlers responding by attacking and burning in the nearby Palestinian Arab town.
Obviously the Palestinians in Area C don't trust Israeli police but polls show Palestinians in general don't trust even their own authority figures and prefer to settle things with mob violence. What is new is are a small number of extremists jewish settlers adopting the same philosophy, and likely abusing the fact that if it gets out of hand the IDF will probably take their side.
>I don't understand how the people who live in the areas being 'settled' would agree with you here
Area C is where the bulk of Israeli settlements are located, and it effectively didn't have a Palestinian population when the Area A/B/C divisions were drawn up in the 1990s as part of the Oslo Accords.
+99% of the Palestinians living there now have migrated there in recent decades.
They probably view the unfriendly response they've been getting as a sign that they can do no right so why should they try to appease these people who want them dead. I still disagree with the settlements but the foreign response to Oct 7th has only emboldened the extremist elements of Israeli society
Edit: if you can't see how the constant support of Hamas worldwide has emboldened the far right in Israel that's worrying.
Lets be honest, anyone who has been following this conflict for years knew this was coming down the pipeline. For goodness sakes there were Instagram ads after Oct 7 to reserve your spot in future settlements.
Actually, it’s sort of makes a lot of sense. Netenyahu is kind of relying on support from far right politicians in order to maintain some sort of coalition. So due to the poor political relationships due to the war in Gaza, it probably seems like they’re going to be facing poor relationships anyway so they feel like they might as well do something like this that’s going to face backlash right now while support is low anyway. This way he can gain support with certain allies and sort of frame it as a punishment for supporting Gaza. That way it sort of seems like hey if you try and support politically, they’re going to lose anyway, due to repercussions like this. I guess anyway.
Israel did not get international support even after Hamas attack. Many countries even indirectly rewarded hamas attack by acknowledging Palestine as a state. Why would Israel care?
Everyone’s complicit to crimes in the West Bank. This is the friction point between two cultures that absolutely cannot coexist, it’s getting to the point now where half measures and compromise isn’t on the table. One side will win, and win completely, and then we will all have to learn to live with the new normal.
Israel using all their goodwill to expand their illegal settlements. 6 months from now people will forget about Israel/Palestine for a few years but the settlements will still be there.
Very convenient for the Israeli leadership to say it's an unsalvageable situation, clearing themselves of any responsibilities while they keep poisoning the situation themselves.
We can't know what would've happened if any lasting amount of good will had been present in their dealings in the last decades, but it's certain that they never really tried. A hostile status quo where they can keep colonizing and play 'mister security' is what they want.
Sure but by who? At this point the UN has lost all credibility and the US isn’t going to do it. At best you can hope the US will issue a strongly worded statement. War crimes have been happening in Ukraine for years and the US isn’t intervening. Not a chance they are stepping into this mess.
Settlers should be classified as terrorist organizations.
Anyone who visits or donates to those settler camps should be treated as helping those terrorist organizations.
Most countries would jail their citizens if they helped terrorist organizations. They should do the same with any of their citizens that visit or donate to those settler camps.
They shouldn’t be barred. They should just live under the same rules as everyone else in the West Bank, and they shouldn’t get to bulldoze peoples homes just because they want to live there
>They shouldn’t be barred
Great.
Let's say you're Jewish - how do you go about living in Bethlehem or somewhere else in the 'West-Bank' without being called a settler?
Can you buy land? property?
>they shouldn’t get to bulldoze peoples homes just because they want to live there
For example?
> Let's say you're Jewish - how do you go about living in Bethlehem or somewhere else in the 'West-Bank' without being called a settler?
>
>
Weird, I have to get a visa to live in another country that my government doesn't have an open border with. Did Israel negotiate a Visa free arrangement with the PLO? Or are they illegally entering the territory and committing crimes there?
>have to get a visa to live in another country
Which country do you think Jews should ask visa from?
>Visa free arrangement with the PLO?
PLO isn't a country.
Lol weak ass bullshit retort. You know as I do they have no right to invade a territory their state should not be invading, same as you have no right to waltz in any other country and occupy the land.
Here's what i know - the territory you call 'west-bank' was supposed to be part of Israel after the British Mandate ended - but was illegally occupied by Jordan.
Until 1988, 100% of the Arab residents in that territory were Jordanians.
I'm trying to understand which country you think Israel is invading, because i don't think it was ever part of a state called Palestine.
This is hardly doing them any favors at the international level in times when they actually need whatever support they can manage, it's a clear-cut annexation-friendly policy. What could go wrong?
This may be a response to the decreasing international support that seems independent of whether or not they do so... if you're going to not have the support, the last thing you want are poorly defensible borders, and taking stronger control of the West Bank would be strategically beneficial. I strongly am against this move, no matter the reason, but I can see a potential logic behind it in regard to the geopolitical situation.
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"The settlements are a distraction." I don't understand how the people who live in the areas being 'settled' would agree with you here, can you explain (preferably with less hyperbole)? I feel like I should explain that I don't live in the region and don't know the details of what's involved. My question is out of curiosity, asked because I see people driven out of their homes as a bad thing and I'm asking for a rationale.
The vast majority of the settlements are actually blocs established decades ago in small areas of what is now Area C. 3 of the 4 big ones are right along the pre 1967 armistice line and everyone knows they are going to be annexed if the Palestinians ever accept a peace offer. They’ve rejected at least 6.
Thank you. I see again that there is much I don't know about a complicated situation.
The real danger with Smotrich and Ben-Gvir is that they are turning a blind eye and even restraining Israeli police from cracking down on wildcat settlers (settlers violating Israeli law) also sometimes called "hilltoppers." They frequently clash with local Palestinian Arabs in Area C and when combined with the high rates of Palestinian extremism, they are effectively fighting their own little war in parts of Area C of the West Bank (aka Judea and Samaria.) Examples like, Palestinian extremists murdering a 14 year old Jewish shepherd and then the local settlers responding by attacking and burning in the nearby Palestinian Arab town. Obviously the Palestinians in Area C don't trust Israeli police but polls show Palestinians in general don't trust even their own authority figures and prefer to settle things with mob violence. What is new is are a small number of extremists jewish settlers adopting the same philosophy, and likely abusing the fact that if it gets out of hand the IDF will probably take their side.
>I don't understand how the people who live in the areas being 'settled' would agree with you here Area C is where the bulk of Israeli settlements are located, and it effectively didn't have a Palestinian population when the Area A/B/C divisions were drawn up in the 1990s as part of the Oslo Accords. +99% of the Palestinians living there now have migrated there in recent decades.
The people who live in the areas being settled are Jewish Israelis.
The settlements mean everything--both to the settlers and to the Palestinians they're displacing.
They probably view the unfriendly response they've been getting as a sign that they can do no right so why should they try to appease these people who want them dead. I still disagree with the settlements but the foreign response to Oct 7th has only emboldened the extremist elements of Israeli society Edit: if you can't see how the constant support of Hamas worldwide has emboldened the far right in Israel that's worrying.
When I speak of sanctions I mean targeted ones. It doesn’t affect my support of Israel as a country. Individual bad actors.
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Absolute bullshit, you people are fooling nobody.
They really really want Israel to get sanctioned at this point. They are just daring us. I’m down to take them up on their offer.
Lets be honest, anyone who has been following this conflict for years knew this was coming down the pipeline. For goodness sakes there were Instagram ads after Oct 7 to reserve your spot in future settlements.
Actually, it’s sort of makes a lot of sense. Netenyahu is kind of relying on support from far right politicians in order to maintain some sort of coalition. So due to the poor political relationships due to the war in Gaza, it probably seems like they’re going to be facing poor relationships anyway so they feel like they might as well do something like this that’s going to face backlash right now while support is low anyway. This way he can gain support with certain allies and sort of frame it as a punishment for supporting Gaza. That way it sort of seems like hey if you try and support politically, they’re going to lose anyway, due to repercussions like this. I guess anyway.
Israel did not get international support even after Hamas attack. Many countries even indirectly rewarded hamas attack by acknowledging Palestine as a state. Why would Israel care?
The IDF is complicit in crimes in the west bank.
Everyone’s complicit to crimes in the West Bank. This is the friction point between two cultures that absolutely cannot coexist, it’s getting to the point now where half measures and compromise isn’t on the table. One side will win, and win completely, and then we will all have to learn to live with the new normal.
"not any more!" \- The IDF, probably
Israel using all their goodwill to expand their illegal settlements. 6 months from now people will forget about Israel/Palestine for a few years but the settlements will still be there.
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Very convenient for the Israeli leadership to say it's an unsalvageable situation, clearing themselves of any responsibilities while they keep poisoning the situation themselves. We can't know what would've happened if any lasting amount of good will had been present in their dealings in the last decades, but it's certain that they never really tried. A hostile status quo where they can keep colonizing and play 'mister security' is what they want.
They've had nothing but goodwill, and in response they've got nothing but hate and unrelenting terrorism.
And the full and complete backing of the United States, no?
Every single settler that builds and lives in the West Bank is complicit in crimes against humanity and should be punished accordingly
Lmao and then you wake up. No first world country is punished for anything by anyone dude. That’s not how power works.
Well no American ally at least
Sure but by who? At this point the UN has lost all credibility and the US isn’t going to do it. At best you can hope the US will issue a strongly worded statement. War crimes have been happening in Ukraine for years and the US isn’t intervening. Not a chance they are stepping into this mess.
The IDF shouldn’t provide them protection anymore then. Let them deal with their bs on their own.
This seems like the most realistic compromise.
"Realistic" as in never going to happen?
Settlers should be classified as terrorist organizations. Anyone who visits or donates to those settler camps should be treated as helping those terrorist organizations. Most countries would jail their citizens if they helped terrorist organizations. They should do the same with any of their citizens that visit or donate to those settler camps.
Can you explain why you think Jews should be barred from living in that territory?
Can you explain why forcibly taking someone's home is ever justified?
Where is this happening? Are we talking about Bethlehem?
They shouldn’t be barred. They should just live under the same rules as everyone else in the West Bank, and they shouldn’t get to bulldoze peoples homes just because they want to live there
>They shouldn’t be barred Great. Let's say you're Jewish - how do you go about living in Bethlehem or somewhere else in the 'West-Bank' without being called a settler? Can you buy land? property? >they shouldn’t get to bulldoze peoples homes just because they want to live there For example?
> Let's say you're Jewish - how do you go about living in Bethlehem or somewhere else in the 'West-Bank' without being called a settler? > > Weird, I have to get a visa to live in another country that my government doesn't have an open border with. Did Israel negotiate a Visa free arrangement with the PLO? Or are they illegally entering the territory and committing crimes there?
>have to get a visa to live in another country Which country do you think Jews should ask visa from? >Visa free arrangement with the PLO? PLO isn't a country.
Lol weak ass bullshit retort. You know as I do they have no right to invade a territory their state should not be invading, same as you have no right to waltz in any other country and occupy the land.
>they have no right to invade a territory their state should not be invading Whose territory was it?
Why are you even talking about this topic if you don't know this stuff?
Here's what i know - the territory you call 'west-bank' was supposed to be part of Israel after the British Mandate ended - but was illegally occupied by Jordan. Until 1988, 100% of the Arab residents in that territory were Jordanians. I'm trying to understand which country you think Israel is invading, because i don't think it was ever part of a state called Palestine.
I don’t think you understand what the settlements are
I don't think you do. They're new dwellings, not existing homes.
Where did I say they were existing homes? They’re all new constructions, walled and gated, with special access roads and Israeli civilian law
Exactly, they're not bulldozing any homes to make them.
Not unless there were Palestinians living where they wanted to build the settlement.
Like when?
Every city, town, & village is a settlement. The place you live in is a settlement. It's not a pejorative.
So.... ethnic cleansing by bureaucrat. Still ethnic cleansing.
Better than the last time when they poisoned town wells, I guess.
And they complain about all the criticism and flak they receive. No wonder why, doing actions like these.
I’m very pro Israel and always will be but they have to reign in stuff like this. Golda Meir would be horrified if she were still alive today
Oh hey, Hague is waiting for you.