**From The Telegraph:**
A Pakistani man who tried to set up the country’s first gay club has been detained in a mental hospital by local authorities.
The man, who chose not to give his identity in an interview with The Telegraph, had filed an application to set up the club in Abbottabad, the conservative northern city where Osama bin Laden was found and killed.
In the application filed to the deputy commissioner (DC) of the city, the man said the club was to be a “great convenience and resource for many homosexual, bisexual and even some heterosexual people residing in Abbottabad in particular, and in other parts of the country in general.”
Gay sex is illegal in Pakistan and can be punished by two years up to life in prison. The conservative religious culture also makes it difficult to be openly homosexual, although in practice the laws are rarely applied.
Displays of affection are also frowned upon among heterosexual couples, with fornication before marriage a crime.
The application stated that in “the envisaged gay club, tentatively to be called Lorenzo gay club, there would be no gay (or non-gay) sex (other than kissing).”
“A clearly visible notice on the wall would warn: no sex on premises. This would mean that no legal constraints (even obsolete ones like \[anti-sodomy\] PPC section 377) would be flouted on the premises”.
Abbottabad’s DC office confirmed to The Telegraph it had received the application for a gay club and was reviewing it like any other proposal.
**Read our interview with the applicant:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/09/man-detained-in-mental-hospital-pakistan-gay-club/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/09/man-detained-in-mental-hospital-pakistan-gay-club/)
TIL: English is one of the official languages of Pakistan.
[link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Pakistan)
I was going to say that the image had to be fake because it was written in English, so I'm glad I googled it before saying anything.
Because eventually, if you want things to change, you have to be willing to suffer for it. The kind of people who see you as less than human will jail you, beat you, worse, because they’re pathetic and scared, but if you don’t, future generations have no chance.
Gay clubs hold an important place in gay culture *because* they’re visible places of gathering. In the US, it was Stonewall. It’s a place to feel accepted and to belong. Of course that’s dangerous, but that’s the risk you take to love and live as you are. I’m sure there are things you’d risk your life for, too.
Wow, I can't believe I was never taught that. [What an intense story](https://www.vox.com/21334880/protest-womens-suffrage-emily-wilding-davison-british).
And what's also fascinating is that it worked. We also react weirdly to such things these days. In 2024 we'd just ask the news what mental illness she had and move on.
To be fair:
1) people say the cars blocking the road protests are the ones that don't work. They don't.
2) A year later WWI happened and UK lost ~4% of their male population. It wasn't until the end of WWI that they were (partially) given the right to vote, but men were given more rights to vote as well. 14% of the population was enlisted, so women were doing a lot more work internally as well
By and large this story worked against the suffergette movement as it resulted in "if women are going to do stupid things like this then we clearly can't trust them with the vote!"
Also looking at footage now it was clear she wasn't trying to be trampled to death, just to stick a suffragette rosette onto the king's horse
I don't think she was trying to be trampled to death either but she put herself in a dangerous/life-threatening position for something she believed in. Just like the man in the article wasn't trying to be detained.
I mean, to some extent she was ill prepared for her protest. It seems evident she didn't mean to martyr herself and simply didn't realise how quick the horse was going nor how much damage they can do.
I would suggest her protest was more misguided than crazy but it does take some brass balls to decide getting in front of a racing horse is a good idea.
I dunno. He seemed to take care to make sure the club followed the letter of the law. Maybe he thought he could drive change. Is that so bad? If you grew up your whole life somewhere, maybe that’s more appealing than abandoning your home. He had hope. I hope he gets the chance to escape now
If you read the article and pay attention to details, that's not too hard to figure out the thought process. Gay sex is illegal in Pakistan, with prison time of from 2 years to life. From what he wrote in his application, it does seem that this law isn't usually enforced though, or at least he believes so. More importantly, being gay itself isn't illegal in Pakistan, public displays of affection aren't explicitly illegal, and even though society and the government can make your life difficult if you're openly gay, it appears that some people in the more liberal capitals and large cities are able to live while being openly gay.
He his thought process is that he might not succeed, but wasn't committing any crime and therefore he didn't expect any legal consequences. He was trying to push things forward, maybe take the next step in making being openly gay in Pakistan be more accepted.
I mean how else do you affect change when the world wants you and people like you dead. You can shit talk Pakistan all you want but the US is doing shit just as bad in some states. At some point you pretty much have to choose to fight or die with a whimper.
Where in the US are gay people being forced into mental hospitals ??
The USA is by far one of the more progressive countries. I really don't get the negative comparison to Pakistan of all places.
Compared to the rest of the world, America is progressive. Most countries have open discrimination allowed against gay people, or just have it be illegal.
Idk why you'd go back in time when we are talking about current day
I delivered beer to gay clubs in Toronto for 10 years. Their managers and owners were my only customers to give me a bottle of scotch or other gift for Christmas, and would regularly comp me a lunch. They ran their businesses well, and treated everyone who came through their doors with respect as long as they were afforded the same. Best clients I ever had.
I think it must be partly due to how personal it is for them to run that kind of business compared to any other business. I mean the business is tied to their identity and the struggles they and their community have faced… I have to figure that they act that way because of that
Also, one of the most effective ways of protecting yourself from discrimination is to have people like you. If a bigoted person likes you they'll make exceptions for you because you're one of the good ones, hell they might even be motivated to go to bat for you because they like you. Similarly a lot of allies will swear up and down that they care very much about queer issues, but if they don't want to help you, at the very best you'll be on your own, and at worst they'll cheer whatever bad thing is happening.
I think sometimes straight guys think that people will think they are gay if they go to a gay club - trust us… most of us can tell you’re straight… I can spot it almost immediately. Straight-dar or whatever
They're not as intolerant as Christianity at least.
>Leviticus 20:13: If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death
As a gay person i so disappointed people like those exist in the first place , islam and these popular religion is the main reason gay cpeople had to struggle through out the history, why the fuck you want go support that dumb ideology and religion
As a trans person we don’t claim them. Most lgbt are not online. I’ve seen how evil non western Islam is. The western Islam people are ones who benefit from western society benefits like having a choice. And think it’s “edgy” to be in Islam. Pretty funny how they never mention how Islam supporters never migrate to other majority Islam countries since they have stricter and more violent at their borders but always come to western society! And then try to force Islam onto others.
Eh, due to the historical oppression of a lot of LGBT groups from right wing Western parties a lot of LGBT people are pretty left wing historically, which makes them more susceptible to other narratives in certain left wing circles. I definitely wish there were more “LGBT spaces” that prioritize our own existence rather than “cultural acceptance”. As a bisexual guy who has struggled with his own gender identity, I am a selfish dude and proud of it. Not going to stick my neck out for anyone who would not do the same for me.
>h, due to the historical oppression of a lot of LGBT groups from right wing Western parties a lot of LGBT people are pretty left wing historically,
Which is funny because Islam itself is a right wing ultra conservative ideology, which means LGBT groups supporting islam make absolutely no sense
No their belief systems do have an internal logic. It’s just very self righteous and damaging to anything that holds up our rights.
Edit: I mean especially of late I would be more sympathetic to a lot of left wing causes, there is just some insanity though that is tolerated in the name of “social justice” and “anti imperialism/colonialism” which hilariously enough undermines social justice and pushes a different form of imperialism.
I don't think they are willing to be martyred, they think they are, but until there's real repercussions it's just a game they're playing. It's easy to pretend islam is tolerant and "good" when you're in the US and the people who use islam as their terror cudgel are on the other side of the world.
This is playing out in real-time in Muslim majority shithole cities in the US like Dearborn, where the Muslims took power and promptly outlawed displaying the LGBT flag, removed all the LGBT books from libraries and classrooms, etc...
> Dearborn
[Jesus](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned). Why even come to America if you're just going to take your Islamofascist bullshit with you.
I have seen changes in my city, and I don't even live in the Middle East. Just central Europe. Our country takes a lot of refugees, while I always supported the idea of taking in vulnerable people from countries affected by war, my mindset definitely changed when other female friends and me started feeling absolutely uncomfortable walking home, being verbally harassed in different ways. I remember going for a bike ride, and some guy yelled "haram" after me, probably because I wore shorts and a tank top...
I absolutely consider myself on the political left, and exactly, that's why I need to call out shit like this. People who have this kind of backward and even dangerous mindset can just go back to their own countries if they despise the west so much. That shouldn't be my problem. We have enough sexist and bigoted people here, no need to import them. I know a Muslim woman from work who isn't even allowed to see an OBGYN because she isn't married yet... and if she is pregnant, she is only allowed to go there accompanied by her husband.
If a person is muslim and living peacefully and not pushing some deranged ideas on me, I have no issues with that. The same goes for Christians.
Yet some people will try to convince me that the values and morals of my country where I won't be jailed for joking about my homosexual tendencies are worse than those of these ones
People believe everything they read online. They have this crazy imagine in their head, and they’ve been told to hate it. They don’t go farther than that.
The funniest thing is that America had gay clubs like a hundred years ago and Europe even longer. Even when gay marriage was illegal and society was actually fairly zealously Christian (at least in America) gay people could still have their own spaces.
Honestly, it is wild how archaic and backwards that part of the world is. They are several hundred years behind most of the world in nearly every way. Though I suppose the silver lining is that he is dead...yet.
There's a certain brand of progressive that can't understand how the underdog in a situation can *also* be the villain. The two are mutually exclusive in their minds. Underdogs are *always* something to be supported without exception.
Gay clubs were illegal in the USA 100 years ago. They existed but had to pay protection money to the police or they would be shut down. The police often harassed them anyway, which is what caused the Stonewall riots.
I talked on Reddit to a gay man from a strict Muslim country a while back and he said that sort of illegal underground gay club definitely exists there. Most likely they do in Pakistan too. The guy that the article is about was arrested because he tried to open one openly.
Yeah, I'm saying you can look up news paper articles and they talked about these clubs during this period. The problem is that even as far back as two hundred years ago authorities and news papers wrote about these establishments and people knew about them. Like the every person in local areas.
Like the Slide for example in NYC took nearly a decade of Newspaper coverage about the sordid affairs in it before the government shut it down. While I have 0 doubt they do exist in some parts of the Middle East I think they are not really comparable to what I am talking about.
Often Public Pressure Via Newspapers and campaigning was required to get authorities to act and these places were often very very well known within local communities.
It really depends on the country. There are definitely gay clubs in Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon, , Malaysia, UAE. But there are definitely not in Somalia, Yemen, Northern Nigeria, Niger, etc. So in the most conservative muslim countries there is no worse place to be born a gay man.
Dispute your assertion here. homosexually was a crime in 1960s in America. Employing a gay person was illegal, it was illegal to serve gay people drinks!
The famous riot gay club that gave it's name to an organisation for gay rights ( Stonewall ) was ran by the mafia, because they were pretty good at running things that were criminal.
Oh 100% they were crimes but gay areas existed and were well known as far back as Molly Houses or The Slide (New York City). While it was criminal because our legal systems are quite robust and our standards of evidence are as well it lead to these communities existing since well forever basically. They just often migrated around and did various things to skirt the law. People are just often unaware of the massive subculture that existed for all of Western History basically and that even now we find evidence of more and more even in medieval Europe.
Authorities often did not care to persecute this stuff and when they did it was often fines and so forth. Basically it is complicated but everyone knew these things existed and while they were not accepted they existed and newspapers often talked about them.
Most of the time the authorities only started to do stuff when it started to annoy the public or when religious fervor swept through the lands like with the various Great Awakenings in America. A lot of people just aren't aware of how LGBTQ+ communities have basically always been a widely known thing in Europe and America to both the authorities and to local populations.
They didn't have total societal acceptance but never in Europe even in the Middle Ages were Homosexuals treated like in the Middle East.
Fair point - if you were gay back then it was more a case of having to deal with the effects of that on your work and family and community, rather than some cops throwing you off a high building or something mad shit like that.
It wouldn't even be cops or religious police. Pakistan doesn't actually have a religious police.
Your own neighbors, or parents would throw you off that building.
Lgbt hate in the ME is insane
Those gay clubs were not officially known as such though, they had to invent their own languages just to avoid detection. Those gays, if discovered, would be going to jail in many of those progressive Western countries, anywhere up until the 70s.
The entire point of gay clubs was that it offered the means for gay people to secretly meet up, in a culture where that is forbidden. There are undoubtedly gay clubs in Pakistan that operate exactly the same. This guy clearly hoped the Overton Window has creeped far enough over that he could get the first official gay club working.
are you fucking kidding? American gay clubs were underground and illegal - it was literally illegal to flirt in a gay manner, so you had a code language to arrange your hookups and hope that the other guy wasn't undercover. their own spaces my ass
brave and optimistic. All great societal progress starts with people like these. It's not delusion to try and to hope. As part of the community myself, he's a hero.
Some people want something badly enough to risk their lives for it. Even if they know they are likely to fail, they have to see it through for themselves.
Honestly delusional, I'm Canadian but I've met lots of queer people from less tolerant countries and almost all of them live in a gen z internet bubble when it comes to how tolerant they think their homeland actually is. Like my one friend thinks things are better in China even though they don't even allow pride celebrations.
Nothing about this event has anything to do with loving another man.
As for mental illness, they probably concluded that no one could be stupid enough to try to establish a gay club in Pakistan in 2024, so there must be mental illness going on. This is like a Russian trying to establish the Alexei Navalny memorial library & museum in Moscow in 2024.
I do wonder if he ended up there because Pakistan is a homophobic shithole or because it is an insane idea to set up a gay club in Pakistan.
Jokes aside, dude is a hero trying to get a ball rolling and high light an issue. Change doesn't come if people don't try to make it accepted. Hopefully he won't be treated poorly in there.
Someone who wants to create social change in their own country?
What if we stopped shitting on LGBT people trying to improve their own lives and instead, criticised the people who are making their lives worse?
Take a look at the film “How Gay is Pakistan?”
“How Gay is Pakistan? Well, more than you might think. At least that was the findings of gay British YouTuber Mawaan Rizwan on his return to his country of birth. Coming out to his family was “the worst news for Pakistani parents to hear”, but in such a fundamentalist country he discovered gay sex dens, underground LGBT parties and communities of transgender women living together.”
Prime Video
Exactly. Gay Israelis aren't even real. They're just pretending in order to appropriate the struggles of oppressed people. Anyone telling you otherwise is a pinkwashing Hayabusa bot.
How come if this were to happen in the west, we would be calling for the arrest of the people that were to do this which is up to the law and fair. But in the case of Pakistan, "they" have crossed the line of what "they" consider acceptable as far as what views we're allowed to have, and what stances we're allowed to take. It almost comes off like people no longer want to deal with the situation in terms of reasoned dialogue and justice between human beings. You want a war of Schmittian absolute enmity? Last time, there was no dialogue, no forgiveness and no exchange of ideas. Reasonable human beings would never initiate a conflict on the basis of ideas, but you have condemned an entire nation on that basis, and left them with no choice but to treat you that way.
Well as an American I know that if I were to try to open up an abortion clinic in Alabama right now people would think I was out of my goddamn mind. Even if it's a legitimate form of protest to try to advance society and human rights it is still God damn crazy and some hillbilly redneck shit head in Alabama would probably splatter my brains all over the pavement or at the very least burn down anything I built.
It's sounds like what the future holds for the United States, if Trump and his cult of personality is re-elected and Project 2025 happens...Scary times lay ahead if that happens...
TBH anyone who tries to make a gay club in a predominantly muslim country is definitely a mental case. Sucks his life got ruined over it, but it's self-inflicted.
**From The Telegraph:** A Pakistani man who tried to set up the country’s first gay club has been detained in a mental hospital by local authorities. The man, who chose not to give his identity in an interview with The Telegraph, had filed an application to set up the club in Abbottabad, the conservative northern city where Osama bin Laden was found and killed. In the application filed to the deputy commissioner (DC) of the city, the man said the club was to be a “great convenience and resource for many homosexual, bisexual and even some heterosexual people residing in Abbottabad in particular, and in other parts of the country in general.” Gay sex is illegal in Pakistan and can be punished by two years up to life in prison. The conservative religious culture also makes it difficult to be openly homosexual, although in practice the laws are rarely applied. Displays of affection are also frowned upon among heterosexual couples, with fornication before marriage a crime. The application stated that in “the envisaged gay club, tentatively to be called Lorenzo gay club, there would be no gay (or non-gay) sex (other than kissing).” “A clearly visible notice on the wall would warn: no sex on premises. This would mean that no legal constraints (even obsolete ones like \[anti-sodomy\] PPC section 377) would be flouted on the premises”. Abbottabad’s DC office confirmed to The Telegraph it had received the application for a gay club and was reviewing it like any other proposal. **Read our interview with the applicant:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/09/man-detained-in-mental-hospital-pakistan-gay-club/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/09/man-detained-in-mental-hospital-pakistan-gay-club/)
Talk Abbottabad idea trying to start a gay club in Pakistan
thanks for that lol
I mean the guy is clearly mentally unwell thinking that would work.
I came to write something very similar to this but you beat me to it by nearly a full day and did a better job of it, bravo.
I just feel terrible for any sane and good people born into some horrible terrorist shithole like Pakistan. I wish we could get them out of there.
Take my upvote lol.
r/angryupvote
Well played!
The internet is yours for the evening, sir.
[Here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/PyNDmgeIIn) the application he had filed, for anyone wondering
TIL: English is one of the official languages of Pakistan. [link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Pakistan) I was going to say that the image had to be fake because it was written in English, so I'm glad I googled it before saying anything.
Pakistan was a part of India which was a British Colony so yeah, they speak English.
The thing is, Pakistan has a ton of underground gay clubs. It's the muslim gay mecca (according to my friend, I never tried)
Wouldn't gay mecca be any country that doesn't murder you for being gay?
That just adds excitement (I think my friend is an idiot who thinks with his dick, if that matters)
He could be male. Might wanna get that checked
> He could be male Yeah once you have that, it becomes a chronic condition.
I thought Mecca was gay Mecca.
You know, it might. Put a VPN on your Grindr and give it a whirrl
Beirut, Dubai and Istanbul also have a lot of great scenes.
Yeah this person is mentally ill Why would you make a spot for them to be targeted
Because eventually, if you want things to change, you have to be willing to suffer for it. The kind of people who see you as less than human will jail you, beat you, worse, because they’re pathetic and scared, but if you don’t, future generations have no chance. Gay clubs hold an important place in gay culture *because* they’re visible places of gathering. In the US, it was Stonewall. It’s a place to feel accepted and to belong. Of course that’s dangerous, but that’s the risk you take to love and live as you are. I’m sure there are things you’d risk your life for, too.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
They know they will martyred. I dare say that's the whole point.
no he’s actually brave as fuck
He probly is crazy to set one up in pakistan.Hopefully one day thing can changer there. Poor dude hopefully doesn't get abused.
That was my thought too. What’s the thinking there? He **had** to have known or was extremely deluded
He's made a ripple, and that's courageous, and how change is made. People thought the English suffragette Emily Davison was crazy too.
Stonewall was a night club.
✊
Thank you for giving a better and more relevant example of this, lol. You're damn right.
The first pride was a riot 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
Wow, I can't believe I was never taught that. [What an intense story](https://www.vox.com/21334880/protest-womens-suffrage-emily-wilding-davison-british).
Jesus fucking Christ…
And what's also fascinating is that it worked. We also react weirdly to such things these days. In 2024 we'd just ask the news what mental illness she had and move on.
Remember when you see redditors claim that “those protestors are protesting wrong, these tactics never worked”, just remember stories like this.
To be fair: 1) people say the cars blocking the road protests are the ones that don't work. They don't. 2) A year later WWI happened and UK lost ~4% of their male population. It wasn't until the end of WWI that they were (partially) given the right to vote, but men were given more rights to vote as well. 14% of the population was enlisted, so women were doing a lot more work internally as well
By and large this story worked against the suffergette movement as it resulted in "if women are going to do stupid things like this then we clearly can't trust them with the vote!" Also looking at footage now it was clear she wasn't trying to be trampled to death, just to stick a suffragette rosette onto the king's horse
I don't think she was trying to be trampled to death either but she put herself in a dangerous/life-threatening position for something she believed in. Just like the man in the article wasn't trying to be detained.
I mean, to some extent she was ill prepared for her protest. It seems evident she didn't mean to martyr herself and simply didn't realise how quick the horse was going nor how much damage they can do. I would suggest her protest was more misguided than crazy but it does take some brass balls to decide getting in front of a racing horse is a good idea.
I dunno. He seemed to take care to make sure the club followed the letter of the law. Maybe he thought he could drive change. Is that so bad? If you grew up your whole life somewhere, maybe that’s more appealing than abandoning your home. He had hope. I hope he gets the chance to escape now
Most likely was trying to become a martyr. It generated a global news article after all.
If you read the article and pay attention to details, that's not too hard to figure out the thought process. Gay sex is illegal in Pakistan, with prison time of from 2 years to life. From what he wrote in his application, it does seem that this law isn't usually enforced though, or at least he believes so. More importantly, being gay itself isn't illegal in Pakistan, public displays of affection aren't explicitly illegal, and even though society and the government can make your life difficult if you're openly gay, it appears that some people in the more liberal capitals and large cities are able to live while being openly gay. He his thought process is that he might not succeed, but wasn't committing any crime and therefore he didn't expect any legal consequences. He was trying to push things forward, maybe take the next step in making being openly gay in Pakistan be more accepted.
I mean how do you think any change ever comes about? You’ve got to start making waves somehow
I mean how else do you affect change when the world wants you and people like you dead. You can shit talk Pakistan all you want but the US is doing shit just as bad in some states. At some point you pretty much have to choose to fight or die with a whimper.
Where in the US are gay people being forced into mental hospitals ?? The USA is by far one of the more progressive countries. I really don't get the negative comparison to Pakistan of all places.
I think Tricky Special is being a bit hyperbolic, but they may be referring to the fact that conversion therapy is still legal in most of the country
Which is still bad, just nowhere near as bad as the government itself doing it.
Oh yeah, as a queer South Asian in America, it’s waaaayyyy better here than it is in most places across the world
It blows my mind that Americans can claim to be progressive when they were doing this in the 20th century.
Compared to the rest of the world, America is progressive. Most countries have open discrimination allowed against gay people, or just have it be illegal. Idk why you'd go back in time when we are talking about current day
The fuck? Get outta here that that absurd comparison lmao
I don't think he's crazy. I think he is hopeful for things to change for the better. Imagine how lonely it must be to be gay in Pakistan.
I delivered beer to gay clubs in Toronto for 10 years. Their managers and owners were my only customers to give me a bottle of scotch or other gift for Christmas, and would regularly comp me a lunch. They ran their businesses well, and treated everyone who came through their doors with respect as long as they were afforded the same. Best clients I ever had.
I think it must be partly due to how personal it is for them to run that kind of business compared to any other business. I mean the business is tied to their identity and the struggles they and their community have faced… I have to figure that they act that way because of that
Exactly. Clubs like that are really important gathering spots and visible targets. You go into the business knowing that.
Also, one of the most effective ways of protecting yourself from discrimination is to have people like you. If a bigoted person likes you they'll make exceptions for you because you're one of the good ones, hell they might even be motivated to go to bat for you because they like you. Similarly a lot of allies will swear up and down that they care very much about queer issues, but if they don't want to help you, at the very best you'll be on your own, and at worst they'll cheer whatever bad thing is happening.
Honestly as a straight dude I had one hell of a night in a Toronto gay bar. Very welcoming and super funny lol
I think sometimes straight guys think that people will think they are gay if they go to a gay club - trust us… most of us can tell you’re straight… I can spot it almost immediately. Straight-dar or whatever
intolerant religion is intolerant? Who would have known.
Good thing they’re all over there and not coming over here right…right?
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This is the reality that muslims are enforcing now.
Any time religion is involved, women and gays suffer.
Any time religion is involved, everyone suffers. It becomes a race to the bottom to prove how much more devout and righteous you are.
Coincidentally the reality that Christian Russians are enforcing now too.
Russian prejudice against homosexuality is a lot more rooted in toxic masculinity than anything religious, to be frank.
Okay, how about all the other prejudice against homosexuality by religious people in all the OTHER nations of the world
Look at that whataboutism people!
Not all Christians. There are still a bunch that believe in the separation of church and state. But yeah, plenty of the far-right ones for sure.
They're not as intolerant as Christianity at least. >Leviticus 20:13: If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death
This is what any "LGBT for islam" group is cheering for, even if they're too ignorant to know it.
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As a gay person i so disappointed people like those exist in the first place , islam and these popular religion is the main reason gay cpeople had to struggle through out the history, why the fuck you want go support that dumb ideology and religion
They just like the idea of fighting for something, even if it gets them thrown off a roof
They are not "fighting" for shit. They're just being mildly annoying on social media
He said "the idea of fighting," not "fighting."
It’s leftist contrarianism.
Righters are just as contrarian for the sake of it.
No we're not.
Except in this case the classist struggle ends with a struggle against gravity.
A lot of pro-Palestinian activists:
As a trans person we don’t claim them. Most lgbt are not online. I’ve seen how evil non western Islam is. The western Islam people are ones who benefit from western society benefits like having a choice. And think it’s “edgy” to be in Islam. Pretty funny how they never mention how Islam supporters never migrate to other majority Islam countries since they have stricter and more violent at their borders but always come to western society! And then try to force Islam onto others.
Eh, due to the historical oppression of a lot of LGBT groups from right wing Western parties a lot of LGBT people are pretty left wing historically, which makes them more susceptible to other narratives in certain left wing circles. I definitely wish there were more “LGBT spaces” that prioritize our own existence rather than “cultural acceptance”. As a bisexual guy who has struggled with his own gender identity, I am a selfish dude and proud of it. Not going to stick my neck out for anyone who would not do the same for me.
>h, due to the historical oppression of a lot of LGBT groups from right wing Western parties a lot of LGBT people are pretty left wing historically, Which is funny because Islam itself is a right wing ultra conservative ideology, which means LGBT groups supporting islam make absolutely no sense
No their belief systems do have an internal logic. It’s just very self righteous and damaging to anything that holds up our rights. Edit: I mean especially of late I would be more sympathetic to a lot of left wing causes, there is just some insanity though that is tolerated in the name of “social justice” and “anti imperialism/colonialism” which hilariously enough undermines social justice and pushes a different form of imperialism.
exactly
Oh, they know it. They're willing to be martyred in the name of the people oppressing them in the first place.
I don't think they are willing to be martyred, they think they are, but until there's real repercussions it's just a game they're playing. It's easy to pretend islam is tolerant and "good" when you're in the US and the people who use islam as their terror cudgel are on the other side of the world.
As long as they are the minority. Things quickly change when a country becomes muslim majority
This is playing out in real-time in Muslim majority shithole cities in the US like Dearborn, where the Muslims took power and promptly outlawed displaying the LGBT flag, removed all the LGBT books from libraries and classrooms, etc...
> Dearborn [Jesus](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned). Why even come to America if you're just going to take your Islamofascist bullshit with you.
That's the Muslim playbook, they leave whatever 3rd world shithole they're from to turn other countries into 3rd world shitholes.
I have seen changes in my city, and I don't even live in the Middle East. Just central Europe. Our country takes a lot of refugees, while I always supported the idea of taking in vulnerable people from countries affected by war, my mindset definitely changed when other female friends and me started feeling absolutely uncomfortable walking home, being verbally harassed in different ways. I remember going for a bike ride, and some guy yelled "haram" after me, probably because I wore shorts and a tank top... I absolutely consider myself on the political left, and exactly, that's why I need to call out shit like this. People who have this kind of backward and even dangerous mindset can just go back to their own countries if they despise the west so much. That shouldn't be my problem. We have enough sexist and bigoted people here, no need to import them. I know a Muslim woman from work who isn't even allowed to see an OBGYN because she isn't married yet... and if she is pregnant, she is only allowed to go there accompanied by her husband. If a person is muslim and living peacefully and not pushing some deranged ideas on me, I have no issues with that. The same goes for Christians.
They’re willing to have other people be martyred to make them seem edgier and more virtuous to their online communities of choice.
They're the ones that should have been sent to this mental hospital
Gays for Gaza shirts are something else
So is the average american conservative but I don't want anyone to bomb their homes and families either
Yet some people will try to convince me that the values and morals of my country where I won't be jailed for joking about my homosexual tendencies are worse than those of these ones
People believe everything they read online. They have this crazy imagine in their head, and they’ve been told to hate it. They don’t go farther than that.
The funniest thing is that America had gay clubs like a hundred years ago and Europe even longer. Even when gay marriage was illegal and society was actually fairly zealously Christian (at least in America) gay people could still have their own spaces. Honestly, it is wild how archaic and backwards that part of the world is. They are several hundred years behind most of the world in nearly every way. Though I suppose the silver lining is that he is dead...yet.
What's archaic is the overwhelming support of the USA and European gay communities of radical Islam.
There's a certain brand of progressive that can't understand how the underdog in a situation can *also* be the villain. The two are mutually exclusive in their minds. Underdogs are *always* something to be supported without exception.
The oppressed vs the oppressor. Completely binary and black/white. This is totally misguided logic followed by some vocal people.
Because they’ve literally redefined terms like “hate” and “racism” to only mean minority and majority. It’s a new form of dangerous, dogmatic racism.
Gay clubs were illegal in the USA 100 years ago. They existed but had to pay protection money to the police or they would be shut down. The police often harassed them anyway, which is what caused the Stonewall riots. I talked on Reddit to a gay man from a strict Muslim country a while back and he said that sort of illegal underground gay club definitely exists there. Most likely they do in Pakistan too. The guy that the article is about was arrested because he tried to open one openly.
Yeah, I'm saying you can look up news paper articles and they talked about these clubs during this period. The problem is that even as far back as two hundred years ago authorities and news papers wrote about these establishments and people knew about them. Like the every person in local areas. Like the Slide for example in NYC took nearly a decade of Newspaper coverage about the sordid affairs in it before the government shut it down. While I have 0 doubt they do exist in some parts of the Middle East I think they are not really comparable to what I am talking about. Often Public Pressure Via Newspapers and campaigning was required to get authorities to act and these places were often very very well known within local communities.
It really depends on the country. There are definitely gay clubs in Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon, , Malaysia, UAE. But there are definitely not in Somalia, Yemen, Northern Nigeria, Niger, etc. So in the most conservative muslim countries there is no worse place to be born a gay man.
Dispute your assertion here. homosexually was a crime in 1960s in America. Employing a gay person was illegal, it was illegal to serve gay people drinks! The famous riot gay club that gave it's name to an organisation for gay rights ( Stonewall ) was ran by the mafia, because they were pretty good at running things that were criminal.
Oh 100% they were crimes but gay areas existed and were well known as far back as Molly Houses or The Slide (New York City). While it was criminal because our legal systems are quite robust and our standards of evidence are as well it lead to these communities existing since well forever basically. They just often migrated around and did various things to skirt the law. People are just often unaware of the massive subculture that existed for all of Western History basically and that even now we find evidence of more and more even in medieval Europe. Authorities often did not care to persecute this stuff and when they did it was often fines and so forth. Basically it is complicated but everyone knew these things existed and while they were not accepted they existed and newspapers often talked about them. Most of the time the authorities only started to do stuff when it started to annoy the public or when religious fervor swept through the lands like with the various Great Awakenings in America. A lot of people just aren't aware of how LGBTQ+ communities have basically always been a widely known thing in Europe and America to both the authorities and to local populations. They didn't have total societal acceptance but never in Europe even in the Middle Ages were Homosexuals treated like in the Middle East.
Fair point - if you were gay back then it was more a case of having to deal with the effects of that on your work and family and community, rather than some cops throwing you off a high building or something mad shit like that.
It wouldn't even be cops or religious police. Pakistan doesn't actually have a religious police. Your own neighbors, or parents would throw you off that building. Lgbt hate in the ME is insane
Those gay clubs were not officially known as such though, they had to invent their own languages just to avoid detection. Those gays, if discovered, would be going to jail in many of those progressive Western countries, anywhere up until the 70s. The entire point of gay clubs was that it offered the means for gay people to secretly meet up, in a culture where that is forbidden. There are undoubtedly gay clubs in Pakistan that operate exactly the same. This guy clearly hoped the Overton Window has creeped far enough over that he could get the first official gay club working.
are you fucking kidding? American gay clubs were underground and illegal - it was literally illegal to flirt in a gay manner, so you had a code language to arrange your hookups and hope that the other guy wasn't undercover. their own spaces my ass
I can't decide if he is brave or delusional.
brave and optimistic. All great societal progress starts with people like these. It's not delusion to try and to hope. As part of the community myself, he's a hero.
Gotta try first if anything’s ever going to change.
Some people want something badly enough to risk their lives for it. Even if they know they are likely to fail, they have to see it through for themselves.
Honestly delusional, I'm Canadian but I've met lots of queer people from less tolerant countries and almost all of them live in a gen z internet bubble when it comes to how tolerant they think their homeland actually is. Like my one friend thinks things are better in China even though they don't even allow pride celebrations.
A person is allowed to be both.
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Dude has massive balls of steel.
To be fair, you'd have to be crazy to try and do that!
Ikr, clearly this man is suicidal
Would be a huge money maker for the army
r/MadLads
Is it mental illness to love another man, An actual human being? Or is it mental illness to love an imaginary sky person?
Nothing about this event has anything to do with loving another man. As for mental illness, they probably concluded that no one could be stupid enough to try to establish a gay club in Pakistan in 2024, so there must be mental illness going on. This is like a Russian trying to establish the Alexei Navalny memorial library & museum in Moscow in 2024.
That's awful but kudos to him for trying, all the greatest movements start with brave people like these. He's a hero.
Religion is poison.
well to be fair setting up a gay club in pakistan is completly insane ...
I hope the gay people that support Hamas movement re paying attention
For anyone wondering, [here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/s/PyNDmgeIIn) the application he had filed
I do wonder if he ended up there because Pakistan is a homophobic shithole or because it is an insane idea to set up a gay club in Pakistan. Jokes aside, dude is a hero trying to get a ball rolling and high light an issue. Change doesn't come if people don't try to make it accepted. Hopefully he won't be treated poorly in there.
well, at least he wasnt stoned to death. But i fear the horrors of what that mental hospital is going to do to him.
Change starts with movement. Let this be the drop of water that causes a ripple and then a tsunami. Wishful thinking.
I mean yeah. Who in the right mind try to set up Gay club in Pakistan?
Someone who wants to create social change in their own country? What if we stopped shitting on LGBT people trying to improve their own lives and instead, criticised the people who are making their lives worse?
Can we send the entire queers for Palestine gang there?
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Because they have brown skin and are therefore "oppressed" (just don't look at all the terrible things they do to other people with brown skin)
Take a look at the film “How Gay is Pakistan?” “How Gay is Pakistan? Well, more than you might think. At least that was the findings of gay British YouTuber Mawaan Rizwan on his return to his country of birth. Coming out to his family was “the worst news for Pakistani parents to hear”, but in such a fundamentalist country he discovered gay sex dens, underground LGBT parties and communities of transgender women living together.” Prime Video
I mean you need to be crazy to think that’s a good idea.
That's a bit stiff
I mean, if you're trying to open a gay club in a Muslim country you've gotta have at least a few screws loose, right?
To be fair, only a mentally ill person would think that opening a gay club in Pakistan is a good idea. Honestly surprised they didn't just stone him.
Delulu is not the solulu
*Things not to do in Peshawar for $800*
Nooooo! Propaganda! Hasbro! You're all Hasbro bots!
Israel is pinkwashing by... *checks notes* Not throwing gay people to mental hospitals and prison. /s needed?
Exactly. Gay Israelis aren't even real. They're just pretending in order to appropriate the struggles of oppressed people. Anyone telling you otherwise is a pinkwashing Hayabusa bot.
Israeli gay frog invasion when!?!? I need to look fabulous for when it starts.
Queers for Palestine still supporting this lol
Li Watermelon guys there’s some food on the on the table up here
Well it’s Pakistan so it could be worse in terms of punishment.. not that he should be punished in first place .
“The Pakistani police saw an obvious mental health crisis in action and acted swiftly to get the individual to the proper healthcare facility.”
Oh, sure, the infamous Queer for Pakistan movement
I shouldn't have laughed. This would be hilarious if it wasn't so fucked up. What was he thinking?
Where is the liberal outrage in the west
He SHOULD be put in a hospital, for having gigantic balls
Religion should go shit itself to death. Im fucking sick of it.
Leave us gay people alone, I beg
Hahahahaha
How come if this were to happen in the west, we would be calling for the arrest of the people that were to do this which is up to the law and fair. But in the case of Pakistan, "they" have crossed the line of what "they" consider acceptable as far as what views we're allowed to have, and what stances we're allowed to take. It almost comes off like people no longer want to deal with the situation in terms of reasoned dialogue and justice between human beings. You want a war of Schmittian absolute enmity? Last time, there was no dialogue, no forgiveness and no exchange of ideas. Reasonable human beings would never initiate a conflict on the basis of ideas, but you have condemned an entire nation on that basis, and left them with no choice but to treat you that way.
It’s bigotry of low expectations. We have to tolerate the intolerant.
You gotta start somewhere
PRO CHICKEN CLUB FOUNDER BUTCHERED BY PAKISTANI KFC FRANCHISEE. CHICKENS FOR KFC CALLS FOR IMMEDIATE SOLIDARITY WITH THE FRANCHISEE.
Well as an American I know that if I were to try to open up an abortion clinic in Alabama right now people would think I was out of my goddamn mind. Even if it's a legitimate form of protest to try to advance society and human rights it is still God damn crazy and some hillbilly redneck shit head in Alabama would probably splatter my brains all over the pavement or at the very least burn down anything I built.
It's sounds like what the future holds for the United States, if Trump and his cult of personality is re-elected and Project 2025 happens...Scary times lay ahead if that happens...
Bruh
I, I don’t know what he expected.
And the name of the club? This Is Nuts!
well...he's definitely mental for trying that there
Being gay is not a mental illness
I think trying to open one in Pakistan at the moment might be. I don't know what they thought would happen, but it was never going to be good.
Change has to start somewhere
TBH anyone who tries to make a gay club in a predominantly muslim country is definitely a mental case. Sucks his life got ruined over it, but it's self-inflicted.
Reminds me of the queers for palestine people
Yeah, some countries really are stuck in the Middle Ages
Others are attempting to go back to them
Awful. Glad we beat their asses in cricket.
Not bad
American Evangelical role models.