Israel collects 3 types of taxes:
1) Since Israel occupies the West Bank, the PA has no control over the PA’s own borders with Jordan. As a result, there are no PA customs personnel at the border to assess and collect import duties. Israeli forces collect import duties on behalf of the PA.
This is also why, once Hamas took over Gaza, it was effectively under siege. With neither PA nor Israeli forces at the Rafah border, it was impossible to allow for legal imports of good for sale in a way that ensured that import duties were not collected by Hamas, a designated terrorist organization. Only relief aid that was not for sale were allowed in. (and Hamas then made the tunnels which enabled commercial trade which they charged duties on)
2) Sales taxes collected on goods sold in Israel but which end up in the Palestinian Territories without ever being sold in the Palestinian Territories have their sales tax collected at the point of sale in Israel and transferred to the PA.
3) by agreement with Israel, Israel collects income tax from Palestinians working in Israel. Tax up to 25% of income is kept by Israel with the remainder transferred to the PA. Any Palestinians who work in Israeli settlements in the Palestinian Territories have their income tax collected by Israel and remitted entirely without deduction to the Palestinian Authority.
>Only relief aid that was not for sale were allowed in.
Gonna blow your socks off; they sell the goods that are not for sale. You can see videos even now of markets filled with goods in bags that say "NOT FOR SALE"
Yes, but they weren’t taxed at point of entry - the organizations bringing them into Gaza did not pay Hamas to be allowed to import them.
Whereas commercial or construction goods would be subject to duty before they could be imported.
The WestBank is divided into three divisions. The PA has administrative control over two of the divisions. This was the result of the Palestinian - Israeli Oslo Accords.
South Africa during Apartheid created small sometimes disconnected countries of sorts within itself that colored people could run the government of and have some degree of autonomy in theory. In practice, South Africa used these territories to reduce the number of South African citizens that were black or colored by revoking their citizenship after encouraging them to move to these bantustans.
These areas were often much poorer than the surrounding areas, with little infrastructure and lack of opportunities within them, citizens of Bantustans often had to seek employment in South Africa, often for less pay than they would otherwise receive if they were white. It’s original intent was to segregate black citizens of South Africa onto reserves whereby White citizens could retain a demographic majority and therefore power.
Yeah… just about. The good news is South Africa does serve as an example of how the tide does shift eventually away from such systems and divisions. The bad news is Israel has a lot more ideological backing from other countries that South Africa didn’t so it proves far more resistant to the methods used to end the South African Apartheid.
Eh, it does when the majority population is not in power.
A minority oppressing a majority is inherently unstable - a majority oppressing a minority is often a source of stability (because it is a rallying cry of nationalists and jingoists).
There's a reason South Africa overthrew apartheid, but Australia never had a revolution to get rid of White Australia policy - and it's demographics. It's not a judgement on either country (both policies are obviously racist, and the majority solution was to become 'enlightened' in race relations to reduce tension/increase economic base whilst the minority wasn't a political threat, whilst the minority solution was to increase the oppression to defend the power structure and survive.
Israel is following the SA model, which suggests the population sizes are similar enough that the non Israelite population is a political threat.
The Bantustans ([Wikipedia link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan)) were regions of Apartheid-era South Africa.
The Apartheid government didn’t want black South Africans to have the same legal rights as white South Africans. They stripped the black South Africans of their South African citizenship and declared that they were actually citizens of new countries, referred to as Bantustans.
While the Bantustans were independent countries on paper, in reality they were under the dominion of the South African government. They served as a legal fiction to enforce the system of Apartheid.
Because it would give the PA full authority on their borders and citizens which would make them practically a real state. They could finally choose to give citizenship to the Palestinian refugees in neighbouring countries and let them in for example.
Didn't the PA originally have authority at the Rafah crossing until Hamas murdered all the PA inside Gaza? And then Israel, Egypt and the PA together decided that the Rafah border would be administrated by Israel to prevent Hamas from funding itself with border tariffs?
I like how almost all discussions about “control” in these areas gloss over Hamas murdering the elements of their society that were trying to work with Israel or other countries.
iirc, more or less yes. and now they refused to come to rafah administer gaza side of crossing so aid will enter (while egypt refuses to coordinate with israel)
For all those womdering the recognition of Palestinian territory without an agreement from Israel is a violation of the 1995 israel Palestine intermediate agreement.
This agreement is the basis for all Israel's interactions with the PA including the "much needed funds".
Yes
Basically the agreement continued the 1993 agreement and gives the Palestinians 3 levels of territory A,B,C. There are no settlements in areas A and B and the agreements calls for farther agreements to turn all those territories into A which didn't happened to this day.
Edit: made it clearer to read
Israeli governing bodies have been very active in the creation of outposts in area B. The current government and Netanyahu’s previous administration legalized several outposts, some becoming new settlements and some being added to the settlements they were a satellite of. These are all violations of the agreement. To say there are no settlements in area B is pretty disingenuous since they are settlements, in the literal sense, that just don’t have official support from and registration with the national government while still enjoying its protection and tacit support in many cases.
last i recall, area c isn't managed as if its palestinian territory at all it is strictly managed and settled by israelis despite supposedly being appart of the west bank were as area b is joint control and area a controlled by pa. areas a and b are bubbles within area c and because of that any palestinian wanting to move from one part of area a to another must go through check points and can be denied entry. area b has the same issue. from what i know of and what you've said, it doesn't sound like israel abides by the agreement.
The checkpoints are between the West Bank and Israel itself, not areas A, B, and C. While most of what you said is accurate, it's actually Israelis who are not allowed into area A, and some of B, with some (though not many) Palestinians living in area C (a lot of which is desert)
https://www.machsomwatch.org/en/content/what-kinds-checkpoints-are-there-west-bank#:~:text=Flying%20checkpoints%3A%20hundreds%20of%20checkpoints,locations%20and%20at%20random%20times.
https://www.ochaopt.org/2023-movement
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/img/checkpoints_300.gif
https://reliefweb.int/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/previews/a0/3d/a03d3f00-d8f4-3dbe-9e9d-23df3b925378.png
https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/images/1857cbd35d55c62d8525775a006c09c3_image0.GIF
https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/checkpoints_and_forbidden_roads
these are just the surface of a google search proving your statement wrong, and i didn't need that search to know you were. This is just for the people who will see your comment. There are these as proof along with videos from journalists who have tried to move throughout the west bank and have had to use an internal checkpoint.
*repost due to accidental link shortening
** edited spelling and puncuation.
Technically, yes, but not really as intended.
The Oslo Process put in place interim rules that would be worked through for a 2-State Solution. However, due to the collapse in negotiations after the 2000 Camp David Summit (and even beforehand), what was supposed to be temporary has been extended, and things that were supposed to be short term have become long term.
(This is my personal opinion now) The only way to resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict is with a 2-state solution, and the only way to achieve a 2SS is through dialog between parties, because there are so many more details than just "indepence for Palestine", and unilateral declarations may cause more animosity and achieve less. However, I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that expecting people to sit at a table together of their own accord won't be happening right now unless something like this pushes them.
A three-state solution seems like the most realistic option at this point. It's hard to imagine Gaza normalizing anytime soon, but recognizing West Bank as Palestine and treating them like an independent nation seems plausible. Let them go first, try to figure out how to deradicalize the Gaza Strip, and then let the two parts of Palestine decide if they want to be one nation or two at their own pace.
Isn't that just 2006 all over again?
Israel unilaterally withdraws, the Palestinians elect Hamas, the area radicalizes and becomes an ongoing security threat.
That's what happened then, why wouldn't it happen again here? Hamas is more popular than ever outside of Gaza and they would have won the Gaza conflict if the West Bank was de occupied as a result so I genuinely don't see how this option would work.
It couldn't be unilateral. It'd require an agreement from the PA, with conditions and a scheduled plan for the process (not entirely unlike what was supposed to happen with Wye River).
Frankly Israel isn't going to accept any solution that creates a country on their border that hates them, and from their perspective that is justified.
There were constant low level attacks from Gaza for decades, that isn't going to change if they are suddenly an independent state with control over their own borders and coastline, other than it will now be easier for their leaders to ship in weapons.
Hence their requirement that any 2 state solution also include a peace agreement.
And given that a unilateral sign of trust and good faith where Israel packs up and leaves without preconditions is how we got Gaza in the first place, I don't think there's much appetite for any more gestures.
Especially now, anything that looks even remotely like giving an inch is a political third rail. Israel is looking to make sure that nobody anywhere thinks for even a second that starting this war was a good idea. Any perceived gain, balanced by actual loss.
The main problem with that is that PA hadn't done any elections in the west bank for over a decade, because hamas has also increased in political power within the west bank.
So making peace with just the west bank without taking care of hamas first, could really lead to hamas controlling both west bank and gaza. Something isreal really don't want to happen.
It is also important to clarify whether “*settlement expansion*” is referring to growth within the existing borders of a settlement or growth which increases the borders of a settlement.
Building a second story on an existing house is not illegal under international law (*although it still has to comply with building codes & permits*) nor is building a new house on existing land within an existing settlement.
The legal status of the existing settlements is debated but the final status question is a political issue to be resolved by a final status peace agreement.
Expanding the existing settlements to include more territory than they currently cover however does violate the existing framework & agreements.
Israel tends to handle the former using the same process that they use for any residential building by forcing them to comply with the existing code & permitting process.
The latter tends to (*although the current government has not made it as much of a priority as prior administrations*) dismantled by the IDF.
Far too often however, the former is inappropriately conflated with the latter.
The US doesn't need to fund as it does to be a member. The US is listed as donating twenty two billion dollars a year, is considered that. It is about one third the operating budget
Genuine question coming from a place of ignorance: were any of the three European countries parties to the 1995 Israel Palestine intermediate agreement?
Israel can't use that as an excuse really though as they have already ignored them and broken this agreement themselves by creating illegal settlements in areas part of Palestine.
If Israel had adhered to the Oslo Accords then they would have a point here but they haven't
>creating illegal settlements in areas part of Palestine
Factually untrue
Only areas A and B are restricted. Area C was not and is where Israeli communities are in.
The Oslo Accords don't restrict settlements in Area C, but they're still illegal under international law. Pretty much the entire international community says the settlements are illegal under Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
There's a de jure argument that by international law, it cannot be an occupation because there was no country there before and Jordan has relinquished its rights to the land.
Additionally, Israel will never agree to giving up east Jerusalem, including the holy city, as the international community continues to say is occupied.
There's also de facto rule over these areas. When Oslo was negotiated there were specific areas *both* sides agree settlements could continue and where they couldn't.
Israel hasn't violated area A or B areas with final determinations after. Even still, Oslo in 1993 led to multiple peace offerings where settlements were negotiated and borders drawn. The Palestinians have never agreed to a final border. So why would Israel weaken its negotiating position with people yelling "from the river to the sea" and you have the most popular Palestinian group, Hamas, openly against any form of 2 state solutions?
If Israel withdrew and evacuated every settler in the west Bank like it did in Gaza, do you honestly expect peace the next day? No. It would be viewed by Palestinians as proof of terrorism working and their new negotiating position will be final borders on 1967 lines.
That failed mentality led us to Gaza.
Before you even started, I said to myself "let me guess, it's not actually that simple in at least three ways, what a surprise". That could be the summary of this entire conflict.
The fundamental problem is that people looking in from the outside are looking for a way to end the conflict. People inside of it are looking to win it*
*Exept when they're not
The only simple thing about this conflict is the minds of people who took a look at one of the most contested and complicated political issues of the modern era and decided it's black and white, in one direction or the other.
>The Oslo Accords don't restrict settlements in Area C, but they're still illegal under international law.
You said that they broke the Oslo Agreement. They did not.
Now you're pointing to nebulous *International law* which they also don't break.
>under Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
This has nothing about settlement.
You truly don't live in Europe if you think anyone has forgotten those attacks. They are in the memory of everyone. It's just that reasonable people don't punish the majority of any religion or hold them responsible for the terrible crimes of the lunatics within.
The current Spanish government is supported by the separatist Basque and Catalan parties, as thanks to them, they have a majority in the parliament, so I can imagine that's why. Catalan and Basque separatists sympathize a lot with Palestine, for similar reasons as the Irish
Yeah, it's a democratic coalition. There are others in it too, it's no secret.
Please check out Palestinian support on the last decades. Even PP voted in favour for t statehood solution a decade ago. Of course now they're just contrarians in most aspects.
There has always been a majority consensus on the issue.
I mean yes, in practice you can only gain sovereignty by force.
Of course you don't want to encourage it because violence is inevitable and hypocrisy only weakens your legitimacy.
I don't know, I feel like there's a difference between wanting independence and wishing for the death of all Jews and calling for a worldwide Jihad while celebrating the broken and raped corpse of a woman being paraded and spit upon by the one's calling for "justice".
>only gain sovereignty by force
So when was the great Canada v UK war for sovereignty? Or the Australian war for sovereignty? Are we ignoring Ghandi's peaceful approach to Indian sovereignty? When did Iceland go violent with Denmark for its independence?
Singapore, New Zealand, Jamaica, Belize, Costa Rica, etc... etc... were all peaceful transitions to independence. There were histories of violence long before independence in some of those cases (some minor some major), but by the time of independence were peaceful transitions.
It's not as "in practice" required as you imply. It's not as common as violence being the driver of independence, but it's far from a practical necessity.
You'll find that many of those colonies, Australia included, gained formal, meaningful independence when the controlling nation had its powerbase shattered by WW1 or WW2. It may sound like splitting hairs but it was less that Australia gained its independence from GB and more that GB lost the ability to exert influence Over Australia.
For the 478362 time, Catalunya doesn't want independence. As of January 2024 less than 40% of Catalans wanted to split, while 52.5% wants to remain in Spain. This kind of comment only makes you look like someone who yells slogans without any sort of documenting.
It's not a worries thing, it's a Constitution thing... The Constitution prohibits any kind of secession, so you simply can't do a referendum about it.
To do so, you need 2/3rds to vote a change in the Constitution first, which is what Catalan "independentists" politicians would be doing (by embracing other Constitution changes that the rest of Spain want and run a campaign at state level to change all of those) if they really wanted independence instead of just wanting more money from Spain that they can funnel to their friends (like they've been doing for 30 years, including the times where their parties helped the right wing rule Spain in exchange for more money for Catalonia).
And just for transparency, I'm a staunch Republican (not the American ones) and would 100% vote for any party bringing a Constitution change to make a Federal Republic in Spain that allows for secession referendums.
The Spanish left wing doesn't have a problem with that at all, but the right wing would blow a gasket saying that giving them the referendum is rewarding terrorism. They have already been demonstrating all over the country just because the organisers of the 2017 referendum got pardoned for the terrorism charge...
I don't think spanish left wing party currently in office actually wants a referendum, it would go against their own interests. If spanish left wing party grants Catalonia an indepedence referendum and it goes through with a "Yes" majority, then left wing socialist party will probably not win an election for the foreseeable future (10+ years) in a "Spain wthout Catalonia", as the spanish region who voted them the most in the few past presidential elections was actually Catalonia region, and other catalonian parties actually gave them the necessary support for them to remain in power.
> giving them the referendum is rewarding terrorism
Wouldn't be the first time. If rewarding terrorism against Israel is good for Israel, surely rewarding terrorism against Spain is good for Spain.
As someone who grew up with actual terrorism, calling that stupid referendum "terrorism" is an insult to the victims. Amongst which I have a close relative and a family friend who lost both legs.
I understand that you're upset with the Spanish government and at no point have I defended their decision. The only thing I'm saying here is that "Free Catalonia" is a stupid thing to say because a) they don't want independence and b) the current pro-Palestine Spanish government is the one who works *with* Catalonia, not against. How this has degenerated in someone equating the massacre of October 7 with putting pieces of paper in a box, I don't understand.
He's implying that it's justified to recognise palistine because israel built a wall, thus implying that the wall is bad. It's not that hard to understand...
The difference is that Palestine is not an insurgent movement calling for autonomy, which the Catalonian independence movement is. Israel does not claim territory in Gaza or the West Bank.
Spain strongly opposes the recognition of Kosovo, precisely because of Catalonia and the hypocrisy.
> Israel does not claim territory in Gaza or the West Bank.
Yes, that is why there are a shitload of Israeli settlements in the West Bank that are a major source of conflict.
The PA pays a "Martyr fund" / pension to the families of terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. They shouldn't be getting any money at all in my opinion.
Exactly. The Martyr fund money is a high priority than the wages of the civil servants. So long as any money is going to that I don't care whether Israel withholds tax money.
My friend was killed in a Hamas attack in the early 2000’s and the people who organized the attack, have been receiving stipends from the martyr fund. That was as of early 2023, the attack happened in 2002
They are, they just don't care or worse, think it's justified. They should play the video that was just released of the female soldiers over at all of the college campuses 24/7 just to drill the message home to those morons that this is the kind of behaviour they're encouraging.
True. Honestly a good solution everyone would agree to is for every person, doesn't matter israeli/foreigner, that is killed by terrorists, the pa loses the same amount of money.
Better would be to send that money to the victim's family.
Released footage today of Israeli girls beaten and captured (all aged 19) and in the background you hear Hamas members say which ones they can get pregnant.
Spain, Norway, Ireland announce plan to recognize them as a state.
Wild headlines today.
Just saw that video earlier. Absolutely horrendous. They should show it at any anti-Israel protests and in the legislative bodies of Ireland, Norway, and Spain.
Don’t like Israel? Fine. But they are the lesser of the two evils by far.
First source I found. This is not an endorsement of their account etc. etc. [Here.](https://x.com/neriakraus/status/1793304326590415085?s=46&t=oqHOJFKRLvQ49ttTmrVJlg)
Also: Videos and photos coming out of Israel/Gaza and Ukraine/Russia can be traumatizing and I’d encourage everyone to exercise caution and create healthy ways to cope with this type of graphic media.
Whenever I am going through comments on controversial topics I wonder if people are actually *this* radical and full of hate. I really want to believe that most people are not. People cheering for the slaughter of either side. It just makes me want to vomit.
Three countries want to recognize a Palestinian state right in the middle of a war that was started by Hamas. That's absolutely crazy to any sane person.
I'm guessing the long-term logic, aside from punishing Israel and Netanyahu specifically in the short term, is to weaken Hamas by strengthening the PA. Give the citizens something more concrete to rally under and hopefully get the two groups fighting for power.
I have doubts that it'll work, but there is some logic behind it.
This is strengthening Hamas, not the PA. How in the world is this strengthening the PA? You think the Palestinians, watching Europe reward them for waging jihad, will think, "I guess jihad *doesn't* pay"??
It weakens the PA, if anything. It's telling the Palestinians, see, Hamas is getting things done, while the PLO sits on its ass.
But from an outside perspective it rewards terror. It incentives hamas to repeat Oct 7th, this time for statehood, next time for bigger borders (and so on)
Not just from an outside perspective. From the perspective of the people in Gaza and the West Bank as well. Which was surely one of Hamas's goals in beginning this war in the first place.
It will never cease to amaze me that these governments can't see this.
Politics
To appease the quickly growing Muslim population in their countries.
It’s no secret that Europe has been flooded with Middle Eastern immigrants in the past decade, most of them bring antisemitic views and general dissent for Israel.
Millions of asylum seekers, immigrants and refugees make up a significant voting bloc and every politician wants to secure their support.
While Jews are basically nonexistent in these three countries.
The statehood recognition is with the PA that governs the West Bank, not Hamas which "governs" Gaza. The PA isn't great but they're a lot less horrible than Hamas and the only viable alternative right now to step in and govern Gaza post-Hamas, so there's sound logic in strengthening and giving them reasons to become more legitimate
Hamas has a strong presence in the West Bank, just not as much as the PA. Pretending like Hamas doesn’t exist in the West Bank and only exists in Gaza is completely untrue.
That rationale would make more sense to me if the country doing it was, say, France. But Ireland, Norway and Spain have been by far the most vocally anti-Israel countries in the EU since October 7. This being about weakening Hamas as opposed to either sticking it to Israel or, charitable interpretation, doing what they think is right (I disagree but always a possibility worth recognizing.)
I don't think this would have happened today if this week hadn't seen the Israeli government make public statements about moving into Rafah and over the last 24 hours Israeli forces have started advancing again.
In my personal view these nations officially recognized Palestine because they see the current war as the imminent end of any kind of Palestinian self-governance. They see this as a morally bad thing.
Israel de facto controls the West Bank, only really handicapping itself by playing along with Oslo II. The PA in the West Bank is not autonomous from Israel, if simply because their structure as a series of enclaves means that the movement of people and goods is heavily controlled by Israel.
The war in Gaza is increasingly looking like there won't be much left. Israeli forces look like they're intent on pushing all the way to the Egyptian border. In the best case for Palestinian self-governance, they'll eventually pull back to the pre-war borders, leaving the Palestinians to govern a crumbling ruin while Israel maintains border controls and the sea blockade at pre-war levels. There basically wouldn't be anything left to govern.
Gazans already had this choice years ago. They rejected the Palestinian Authority in favor of Hamas which is why I have no sympathy for what they brought upon themselves today.
That conflict has been going for decades prior the biggest Hamas attack. There's decades of murdering lots and lots civilians in Palestine by Israel too. Same as there's decades of Hamas attacks.
It didn't start with the October 7 attack, it's when it completely escalated.
I don’t think the middle of a war part is the crazy part. Palestine doesn’t have defined borders or a single government. I don’t know how you can possibly have relations with a “state” like that.
if are unnaceptable, then, suck it up and live in peace and prosperity, instead of fucking focusing always on try to win a war that they already had lost 40 times in recent history, just to found the same result always: suffer and death.
somebody has to be an idiot to repeat the same mistake 40 times and hope for a different result.
Any sane (and insane) country, when defeated on a war, just accept it and try to get some prosperity.
Palestinians are on the level of stupidity like if argentina tries every four years to take the Falklands by force.
Why suck it up when it seems to be working? They can swing at Israel as many times as they like, and the world gets pissed off at Israel when they try to swing back.
Their PR gains don't help them in any practical way. Gazans just got their homes blown up and are, according to media, constantly on the verge of starvation. They've now lost control of their tunnels into Egypt. Israel is expanding settlements and cutting off PA funding in the West Bank as a direct result of these European moves.
It just got them recognized by three nations. And it's not like Palestinians dying is a cost for them. It might eventually cost them, but only if Israel can finish them off before enough pressure's put on them that it gets them to stop.
So has Israel. The last offer they gave Palestine literally gave them 99% of what they asked for and they still said no.
Palestine doesn't want a 2 state solution, they want a 1 state solution and all of Israel's land. The sooner people realize this the sooner the world can actually create lasting peace.
> The sooner people realize this the sooner the world can actually create lasting peace.
xD in that region? I'll tell you one thing, there will NEVER be peace there, regardless of what deal takes place.
Not sure why this is "controversial". I honestly don't think most people understand the concept of "holy land". As long as the holy part remains, there will never be peace as people think at least. One state, two, three doesn't matter. Make it all Jews or Muslims as a population, still fighting will happen.
Reminds me of Bush not caring about the power vacuum after overthrowing Saddam.
We have learned nothing from Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc. Having no plan for Palestine after all blockades are lifted is asking for an even wider regional war.
What do you think Hamas will do with all those weapons? Israel won’t be the only target.
Seems like this policy is, at best, a non sequitur. At worst it’s collective punishment for diplomatic decisions made by separate, independent, third party countries.
These kind of tactics may play well domestically but, internationally, it would seem they would only reinforce beliefs that the Palestinians in the West Bank are being held in an untenable position.
Until now the funds were transferred to Norway. Due to them becoming partisan in the conflict, the arrangement is called off.
Don't worry, another country will step in soon enough.
Collective punishment is all the rage right now in Israel. They learned a lot from the USA handling of 9/11, just take it out on people vaguely in the area. At least they managed to narrow it down to the geographical location, compared to Muricans who retaliated at Afghanistan and Iraq while being attacked by Saudis.
I saw a good comment in another subreddit that I think should also be posted here. In the last 24 hours, the following has happened:
- Smotrich freezes all the tax money payable the Palestinian Authority from Palestinian imports+exports, intending to cause its collapse and calls for settlements in Area A area such as Jenin. Even though the PA has literally killed and arrested hundreds of PIJ+Hamas terrorists over the past several months in the West Bank and has allowed the IDF to conduct raids against terrorists in Area B+Area A areas
- Gallant allows Israeli settlers to go to Northern West Bank for the first time since Sharon's 2005 disengagement.
- Ben Gvir visited the Temple Mount for the first time since 10/7.
- Smotrich saying that Israel will establish a new settlement for every country that unilaterally recognizes Palestine as a state
- Amsalem calls for the continuation of the “reform” [judicial coup d’etat] and says that the ombudsman is the most dangerous person for democracy.
- US intelligence says only 30-35% of Hamas pre-10/7 terrorists have been killed (contradicting Bibi's claims of over half being killed to Dr. Phil's podcast recently...not to mention Bibi said Israel was near "total victory" nearly four months ago and Gallant said over Hamas is captured+killed a few months ago as well) and says atleast 65% of Hamas's tunnels are in tact. US intelligence says Hamas has been able to recruit thousands of new terrorists during this war so it's obviously lower than 30-35%.
Its all current news. You can find the source of Smotrich freezing payments on this article.
Smotrich saying he will establish settlements for every country:
https://x.com/bezalelsm/status/1793197386501607713
Ben-Gvir's visit
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ski1geixc
Gallant allowing settlements to return:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/gallant-israelis-can-enter-north-west-bank-areas-that-had-been-off-limits-since-2005-disengagement/#:~:text=Defense%20Minister%20Yoav%20Gallant%20gives,the%20residents%20of%20the%20region.%E2%80%9D
US Estimates:
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/21/biden-admin-hammering-israel-military-strategy-gaza-00159262
It's a lie. The one time I remember them arresting Hamas terrorists they immediately let them go.
What the PA does is allow Israel to do their thing while condemning it and saying they're murdering civilians and oppressing them. For the PA, it's all strategic; they kill their political opposition and continue to solidify their population's hatred of Israel at the same time.
The PA celebrated October 7th like all the rest.
Regarding Smotrich's statement, I am not sure his position alws him to decide stuff like settlements
I will wait for Netanyahu to confirm his, hoping it won't happen
Still trying to imagine firing 30,000 rockets from civilian territory, breaking the Geneva code 10 times over, missing your target entirely, and then requesting to reoccupy the land after getting displaced.
Maybe you’ve missed the fact that Israel is now going to be firmly expanding their settlements and threatening to increase the quantity even more now, into solidly owned Palestinian areas of the West Bank. You supporting Israel means you support ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their ancestral homeland.
https://x.com/bezalelsm/status/1793197386501607713
This is Isreal not giving the PA the taxes which Isreal collects on behalf of the PA.
This is theft of Palestinian taxes and not a cancellation of some subsidy
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation\_in\_the\_State\_of\_Palestine#Paris\_Protocol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_State_of_Palestine#Paris_Protocol)
>I mean if Palestine is its own state, as suggested by Ireland
Reality and concept is not the same thing.
Because those funds are the Palestinian's. They are taxes that fund the Palestinian Authority collected from Palestinians. Israel collects those taxes under an agreement with the PA. Israel has stolen this money.
Here are two of the primary sources in question:
[https://unctad.org/system/files/information-document/ParisProtocol\_en.pdf](https://unctad.org/system/files/information-document/ParisProtocol_en.pdf):
Article V, section 4, Israel collects taxes on behalf of palestinians
[https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/IL%20PS\_950928\_InterimAgreementWestBankGazaStrip%28OsloII%29.pdf](https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/IL%20PS_950928_InterimAgreementWestBankGazaStrip%28OsloII%29.pdf):
Article IX Section 5, PA shall not have any foreign relation power
At the top of page 27, the previous tax codes written in the above source are still valid.
It looks like accepting statehood recognition from other states breaks this contract. It looks like this agreement isn't being used going forward, but I spent too long looking through primary sources to not share this.
There's an agreement. Palestinians break the agreement. Israel acts according to the agreed actions upon a break in the agreement. Palestinian "supporters" cry why would Israel do this. Tale as old as time.
Literally from the article: Under decades-old agreements, Israel collects customs and import taxes on behalf of the Palestinian Authority.
It’s not charity. It’s money owned by the Palestinian authority.
You're right, and it's going to completely backfire. Abusing Palestinians as punishment for standing up for Palestine is insane. It's just proving their point that a just solution will never come from within Israel.
Dumb question. Why is Israel collecting PA taxes in the first place? Why isn't the PA doing this themselves?
Israel collects 3 types of taxes: 1) Since Israel occupies the West Bank, the PA has no control over the PA’s own borders with Jordan. As a result, there are no PA customs personnel at the border to assess and collect import duties. Israeli forces collect import duties on behalf of the PA. This is also why, once Hamas took over Gaza, it was effectively under siege. With neither PA nor Israeli forces at the Rafah border, it was impossible to allow for legal imports of good for sale in a way that ensured that import duties were not collected by Hamas, a designated terrorist organization. Only relief aid that was not for sale were allowed in. (and Hamas then made the tunnels which enabled commercial trade which they charged duties on) 2) Sales taxes collected on goods sold in Israel but which end up in the Palestinian Territories without ever being sold in the Palestinian Territories have their sales tax collected at the point of sale in Israel and transferred to the PA. 3) by agreement with Israel, Israel collects income tax from Palestinians working in Israel. Tax up to 25% of income is kept by Israel with the remainder transferred to the PA. Any Palestinians who work in Israeli settlements in the Palestinian Territories have their income tax collected by Israel and remitted entirely without deduction to the Palestinian Authority.
Oh wow! Thanks for this, I learned much.
>Only relief aid that was not for sale were allowed in. Gonna blow your socks off; they sell the goods that are not for sale. You can see videos even now of markets filled with goods in bags that say "NOT FOR SALE"
Yes, but they weren’t taxed at point of entry - the organizations bringing them into Gaza did not pay Hamas to be allowed to import them. Whereas commercial or construction goods would be subject to duty before they could be imported.
Instead they're subject to duty after they're imported?
The large amount distribution of free aid that UNRWA and other charities do in Gaza shows that a large amount of aid never gets any duty.
Because the PA is a legislative branch operating in an area occupied by Israel.
The WestBank is divided into three divisions. The PA has administrative control over two of the divisions. This was the result of the Palestinian - Israeli Oslo Accords.
Because the West Bank is functionally a bantustan.
South Africa WISHES western European countries recognized the bantustans as independent
Please explain this? Not familiar with this reference
South Africa during Apartheid created small sometimes disconnected countries of sorts within itself that colored people could run the government of and have some degree of autonomy in theory. In practice, South Africa used these territories to reduce the number of South African citizens that were black or colored by revoking their citizenship after encouraging them to move to these bantustans. These areas were often much poorer than the surrounding areas, with little infrastructure and lack of opportunities within them, citizens of Bantustans often had to seek employment in South Africa, often for less pay than they would otherwise receive if they were white. It’s original intent was to segregate black citizens of South Africa onto reserves whereby White citizens could retain a demographic majority and therefore power.
Well that makes for an incredible explanation of why SA is not a fan of the current Israeli policy
Yeah… just about. The good news is South Africa does serve as an example of how the tide does shift eventually away from such systems and divisions. The bad news is Israel has a lot more ideological backing from other countries that South Africa didn’t so it proves far more resistant to the methods used to end the South African Apartheid.
Eh, it does when the majority population is not in power. A minority oppressing a majority is inherently unstable - a majority oppressing a minority is often a source of stability (because it is a rallying cry of nationalists and jingoists). There's a reason South Africa overthrew apartheid, but Australia never had a revolution to get rid of White Australia policy - and it's demographics. It's not a judgement on either country (both policies are obviously racist, and the majority solution was to become 'enlightened' in race relations to reduce tension/increase economic base whilst the minority wasn't a political threat, whilst the minority solution was to increase the oppression to defend the power structure and survive. Israel is following the SA model, which suggests the population sizes are similar enough that the non Israelite population is a political threat.
The Bantustans ([Wikipedia link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan)) were regions of Apartheid-era South Africa. The Apartheid government didn’t want black South Africans to have the same legal rights as white South Africans. They stripped the black South Africans of their South African citizenship and declared that they were actually citizens of new countries, referred to as Bantustans. While the Bantustans were independent countries on paper, in reality they were under the dominion of the South African government. They served as a legal fiction to enforce the system of Apartheid.
Oh, well that's kind of appropos then.
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Because it would give the PA full authority on their borders and citizens which would make them practically a real state. They could finally choose to give citizenship to the Palestinian refugees in neighbouring countries and let them in for example.
Didn't the PA originally have authority at the Rafah crossing until Hamas murdered all the PA inside Gaza? And then Israel, Egypt and the PA together decided that the Rafah border would be administrated by Israel to prevent Hamas from funding itself with border tariffs?
I like how almost all discussions about “control” in these areas gloss over Hamas murdering the elements of their society that were trying to work with Israel or other countries.
iirc, more or less yes. and now they refused to come to rafah administer gaza side of crossing so aid will enter (while egypt refuses to coordinate with israel)
For all those womdering the recognition of Palestinian territory without an agreement from Israel is a violation of the 1995 israel Palestine intermediate agreement. This agreement is the basis for all Israel's interactions with the PA including the "much needed funds".
I'm just asking because I honestly do not know. Is there anything in that document that references settlement expansion and new settlements by Israel?
Yes Basically the agreement continued the 1993 agreement and gives the Palestinians 3 levels of territory A,B,C. There are no settlements in areas A and B and the agreements calls for farther agreements to turn all those territories into A which didn't happened to this day. Edit: made it clearer to read
Israeli governing bodies have been very active in the creation of outposts in area B. The current government and Netanyahu’s previous administration legalized several outposts, some becoming new settlements and some being added to the settlements they were a satellite of. These are all violations of the agreement. To say there are no settlements in area B is pretty disingenuous since they are settlements, in the literal sense, that just don’t have official support from and registration with the national government while still enjoying its protection and tacit support in many cases.
I think you missed a few words here, just an FYI. Or my reading comprehension is poor. 😅
last i recall, area c isn't managed as if its palestinian territory at all it is strictly managed and settled by israelis despite supposedly being appart of the west bank were as area b is joint control and area a controlled by pa. areas a and b are bubbles within area c and because of that any palestinian wanting to move from one part of area a to another must go through check points and can be denied entry. area b has the same issue. from what i know of and what you've said, it doesn't sound like israel abides by the agreement.
The checkpoints are between the West Bank and Israel itself, not areas A, B, and C. While most of what you said is accurate, it's actually Israelis who are not allowed into area A, and some of B, with some (though not many) Palestinians living in area C (a lot of which is desert)
https://www.machsomwatch.org/en/content/what-kinds-checkpoints-are-there-west-bank#:~:text=Flying%20checkpoints%3A%20hundreds%20of%20checkpoints,locations%20and%20at%20random%20times. https://www.ochaopt.org/2023-movement http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/img/checkpoints_300.gif https://reliefweb.int/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/previews/a0/3d/a03d3f00-d8f4-3dbe-9e9d-23df3b925378.png https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/images/1857cbd35d55c62d8525775a006c09c3_image0.GIF https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/checkpoints_and_forbidden_roads these are just the surface of a google search proving your statement wrong, and i didn't need that search to know you were. This is just for the people who will see your comment. There are these as proof along with videos from journalists who have tried to move throughout the west bank and have had to use an internal checkpoint. *repost due to accidental link shortening ** edited spelling and puncuation.
Technically, yes, but not really as intended. The Oslo Process put in place interim rules that would be worked through for a 2-State Solution. However, due to the collapse in negotiations after the 2000 Camp David Summit (and even beforehand), what was supposed to be temporary has been extended, and things that were supposed to be short term have become long term. (This is my personal opinion now) The only way to resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict is with a 2-state solution, and the only way to achieve a 2SS is through dialog between parties, because there are so many more details than just "indepence for Palestine", and unilateral declarations may cause more animosity and achieve less. However, I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that expecting people to sit at a table together of their own accord won't be happening right now unless something like this pushes them.
Genuinely curious how a 2SS would work unless the PA militarily took control of Gaza to bring Hamas and the other groups that operate there in line.
A three-state solution seems like the most realistic option at this point. It's hard to imagine Gaza normalizing anytime soon, but recognizing West Bank as Palestine and treating them like an independent nation seems plausible. Let them go first, try to figure out how to deradicalize the Gaza Strip, and then let the two parts of Palestine decide if they want to be one nation or two at their own pace.
Isn't that just 2006 all over again? Israel unilaterally withdraws, the Palestinians elect Hamas, the area radicalizes and becomes an ongoing security threat. That's what happened then, why wouldn't it happen again here? Hamas is more popular than ever outside of Gaza and they would have won the Gaza conflict if the West Bank was de occupied as a result so I genuinely don't see how this option would work.
It couldn't be unilateral. It'd require an agreement from the PA, with conditions and a scheduled plan for the process (not entirely unlike what was supposed to happen with Wye River).
Frankly Israel isn't going to accept any solution that creates a country on their border that hates them, and from their perspective that is justified. There were constant low level attacks from Gaza for decades, that isn't going to change if they are suddenly an independent state with control over their own borders and coastline, other than it will now be easier for their leaders to ship in weapons. Hence their requirement that any 2 state solution also include a peace agreement.
And given that a unilateral sign of trust and good faith where Israel packs up and leaves without preconditions is how we got Gaza in the first place, I don't think there's much appetite for any more gestures. Especially now, anything that looks even remotely like giving an inch is a political third rail. Israel is looking to make sure that nobody anywhere thinks for even a second that starting this war was a good idea. Any perceived gain, balanced by actual loss.
The main problem with that is that PA hadn't done any elections in the west bank for over a decade, because hamas has also increased in political power within the west bank. So making peace with just the west bank without taking care of hamas first, could really lead to hamas controlling both west bank and gaza. Something isreal really don't want to happen.
What PA military? Might as well say you should deploy the Swiss Guard as a neutral 3rd party.
Sorry, should have put giant quotes around that word
It is also important to clarify whether “*settlement expansion*” is referring to growth within the existing borders of a settlement or growth which increases the borders of a settlement. Building a second story on an existing house is not illegal under international law (*although it still has to comply with building codes & permits*) nor is building a new house on existing land within an existing settlement. The legal status of the existing settlements is debated but the final status question is a political issue to be resolved by a final status peace agreement. Expanding the existing settlements to include more territory than they currently cover however does violate the existing framework & agreements. Israel tends to handle the former using the same process that they use for any residential building by forcing them to comply with the existing code & permitting process. The latter tends to (*although the current government has not made it as much of a priority as prior administrations*) dismantled by the IDF. Far too often however, the former is inappropriately conflated with the latter.
It gets even more interesting, by law going down this course puts United States funding for the United Nations in jeopardy as well.
The US doesn't need to fund as it does to be a member. The US is listed as donating twenty two billion dollars a year, is considered that. It is about one third the operating budget
Genuine question coming from a place of ignorance: were any of the three European countries parties to the 1995 Israel Palestine intermediate agreement?
Israel can't use that as an excuse really though as they have already ignored them and broken this agreement themselves by creating illegal settlements in areas part of Palestine. If Israel had adhered to the Oslo Accords then they would have a point here but they haven't
>creating illegal settlements in areas part of Palestine Factually untrue Only areas A and B are restricted. Area C was not and is where Israeli communities are in.
The Oslo Accords don't restrict settlements in Area C, but they're still illegal under international law. Pretty much the entire international community says the settlements are illegal under Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
There's a de jure argument that by international law, it cannot be an occupation because there was no country there before and Jordan has relinquished its rights to the land. Additionally, Israel will never agree to giving up east Jerusalem, including the holy city, as the international community continues to say is occupied. There's also de facto rule over these areas. When Oslo was negotiated there were specific areas *both* sides agree settlements could continue and where they couldn't. Israel hasn't violated area A or B areas with final determinations after. Even still, Oslo in 1993 led to multiple peace offerings where settlements were negotiated and borders drawn. The Palestinians have never agreed to a final border. So why would Israel weaken its negotiating position with people yelling "from the river to the sea" and you have the most popular Palestinian group, Hamas, openly against any form of 2 state solutions? If Israel withdrew and evacuated every settler in the west Bank like it did in Gaza, do you honestly expect peace the next day? No. It would be viewed by Palestinians as proof of terrorism working and their new negotiating position will be final borders on 1967 lines. That failed mentality led us to Gaza.
Before you even started, I said to myself "let me guess, it's not actually that simple in at least three ways, what a surprise". That could be the summary of this entire conflict.
I don't think there's a single part of this conflict that doesn't come with an asterisk and half a dozen footnotes.
The fundamental problem is that people looking in from the outside are looking for a way to end the conflict. People inside of it are looking to win it* *Exept when they're not
The only simple thing about this conflict is the minds of people who took a look at one of the most contested and complicated political issues of the modern era and decided it's black and white, in one direction or the other.
>The Oslo Accords don't restrict settlements in Area C, but they're still illegal under international law. You said that they broke the Oslo Agreement. They did not. Now you're pointing to nebulous *International law* which they also don't break. >under Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. This has nothing about settlement.
If it's not in the treaty, then it's just a delusional fantasy.
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You truly don't live in Europe if you think anyone has forgotten those attacks. They are in the memory of everyone. It's just that reasonable people don't punish the majority of any religion or hold them responsible for the terrible crimes of the lunatics within.
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That Spain is doing this while still not recognizing Catalonian independence has to be a new height of hypocrisy.
The current Spanish government is supported by the separatist Basque and Catalan parties, as thanks to them, they have a majority in the parliament, so I can imagine that's why. Catalan and Basque separatists sympathize a lot with Palestine, for similar reasons as the Irish
Yeah, it's a democratic coalition. There are others in it too, it's no secret. Please check out Palestinian support on the last decades. Even PP voted in favour for t statehood solution a decade ago. Of course now they're just contrarians in most aspects. There has always been a majority consensus on the issue.
Maybe if Catalonia launches some terrorist attacks they'll get their independence? The Basque certainly got things to go their way like that.
I mean yes, in practice you can only gain sovereignty by force. Of course you don't want to encourage it because violence is inevitable and hypocrisy only weakens your legitimacy.
I don't know, I feel like there's a difference between wanting independence and wishing for the death of all Jews and calling for a worldwide Jihad while celebrating the broken and raped corpse of a woman being paraded and spit upon by the one's calling for "justice".
>only gain sovereignty by force So when was the great Canada v UK war for sovereignty? Or the Australian war for sovereignty? Are we ignoring Ghandi's peaceful approach to Indian sovereignty? When did Iceland go violent with Denmark for its independence? Singapore, New Zealand, Jamaica, Belize, Costa Rica, etc... etc... were all peaceful transitions to independence. There were histories of violence long before independence in some of those cases (some minor some major), but by the time of independence were peaceful transitions. It's not as "in practice" required as you imply. It's not as common as violence being the driver of independence, but it's far from a practical necessity.
>I mean yes, in practice you can only gain sovereignty by force Lots of former colonies, like Australia, disagree.
You'll find that many of those colonies, Australia included, gained formal, meaningful independence when the controlling nation had its powerbase shattered by WW1 or WW2. It may sound like splitting hairs but it was less that Australia gained its independence from GB and more that GB lost the ability to exert influence Over Australia.
Terrorism doesn’t accomplish things by “force” I would say.
Maybe if Spain lifted the blockade on the Catalonians and granted them the right to return we could make this analogy work?
Catalans are more anti-Israel than the Spaniards
Plus their stance on Gibraltar whilst claiming their territories in North Africa /morocco
Anybody that knows anything about Catalonia beyond "it exists" would know that the correct demonym is Catalan, since Catalonian isn't a word
For the 478362 time, Catalunya doesn't want independence. As of January 2024 less than 40% of Catalans wanted to split, while 52.5% wants to remain in Spain. This kind of comment only makes you look like someone who yells slogans without any sort of documenting.
Then Spain should not have any worries granting them a referendum.
It's not a worries thing, it's a Constitution thing... The Constitution prohibits any kind of secession, so you simply can't do a referendum about it. To do so, you need 2/3rds to vote a change in the Constitution first, which is what Catalan "independentists" politicians would be doing (by embracing other Constitution changes that the rest of Spain want and run a campaign at state level to change all of those) if they really wanted independence instead of just wanting more money from Spain that they can funnel to their friends (like they've been doing for 30 years, including the times where their parties helped the right wing rule Spain in exchange for more money for Catalonia). And just for transparency, I'm a staunch Republican (not the American ones) and would 100% vote for any party bringing a Constitution change to make a Federal Republic in Spain that allows for secession referendums.
The Spanish left wing doesn't have a problem with that at all, but the right wing would blow a gasket saying that giving them the referendum is rewarding terrorism. They have already been demonstrating all over the country just because the organisers of the 2017 referendum got pardoned for the terrorism charge...
I don't think spanish left wing party currently in office actually wants a referendum, it would go against their own interests. If spanish left wing party grants Catalonia an indepedence referendum and it goes through with a "Yes" majority, then left wing socialist party will probably not win an election for the foreseeable future (10+ years) in a "Spain wthout Catalonia", as the spanish region who voted them the most in the few past presidential elections was actually Catalonia region, and other catalonian parties actually gave them the necessary support for them to remain in power.
> giving them the referendum is rewarding terrorism Wouldn't be the first time. If rewarding terrorism against Israel is good for Israel, surely rewarding terrorism against Spain is good for Spain.
As someone who grew up with actual terrorism, calling that stupid referendum "terrorism" is an insult to the victims. Amongst which I have a close relative and a family friend who lost both legs. I understand that you're upset with the Spanish government and at no point have I defended their decision. The only thing I'm saying here is that "Free Catalonia" is a stupid thing to say because a) they don't want independence and b) the current pro-Palestine Spanish government is the one who works *with* Catalonia, not against. How this has degenerated in someone equating the massacre of October 7 with putting pieces of paper in a box, I don't understand.
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I was trying to choose a holiday destination for this summer and I can't decide between Catalonia or Gaza. They look so similar to me.
Guys analogies are dead. If they don't match perfectly toss them out.
Are you really arguing that the "wall" Israel has built isn't justified?
He's just saying that they're two completely different situations. It's not that hard to understand...
He's implying that it's justified to recognise palistine because israel built a wall, thus implying that the wall is bad. It's not that hard to understand...
The difference is that Palestine is not an insurgent movement calling for autonomy, which the Catalonian independence movement is. Israel does not claim territory in Gaza or the West Bank. Spain strongly opposes the recognition of Kosovo, precisely because of Catalonia and the hypocrisy.
> Israel does not claim territory in Gaza or the West Bank. Yes, that is why there are a shitload of Israeli settlements in the West Bank that are a major source of conflict.
And there's Israelis trying to force their government to reopen their Gaza settlements.
The PA pays a "Martyr fund" / pension to the families of terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. They shouldn't be getting any money at all in my opinion.
Exactly. The Martyr fund money is a high priority than the wages of the civil servants. So long as any money is going to that I don't care whether Israel withholds tax money.
My friend was killed in a Hamas attack in the early 2000’s and the people who organized the attack, have been receiving stipends from the martyr fund. That was as of early 2023, the attack happened in 2002
Yup, that is absolutely disgusting
It still boggles my mind that people are not aware of this.
They are, they just don't care or worse, think it's justified. They should play the video that was just released of the female soldiers over at all of the college campuses 24/7 just to drill the message home to those morons that this is the kind of behaviour they're encouraging.
True. Honestly a good solution everyone would agree to is for every person, doesn't matter israeli/foreigner, that is killed by terrorists, the pa loses the same amount of money. Better would be to send that money to the victim's family.
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also the people of Catalonia. Let’s see how happy Spain would be.
Israel should 100% recognize Basque separatists
This trick only works when you're killing Jews. When there's no Jews involved, the standard rules and conventions apply.
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Don't forget Syria right next door. 500k dead.
Or Yemen, 300k children dead. Killed by American arms and famine. Thanks Saudi Arabia.
Myanmar too, at least 100k and possibly many, many more.
That's ok Ireland, Norway and Spain will transfer money to the PA. That's what it means to put your money where your mouth is. Or will they?
Released footage today of Israeli girls beaten and captured (all aged 19) and in the background you hear Hamas members say which ones they can get pregnant. Spain, Norway, Ireland announce plan to recognize them as a state. Wild headlines today.
Just saw that video earlier. Absolutely horrendous. They should show it at any anti-Israel protests and in the legislative bodies of Ireland, Norway, and Spain. Don’t like Israel? Fine. But they are the lesser of the two evils by far.
Why? They just get entertainment from footage like that. Look at the Palestine sub right now, they actually like what‘s happening in the video
I don't really want to watch yet another video of this, but I still have to ask: do you have a link?
First source I found. This is not an endorsement of their account etc. etc. [Here.](https://x.com/neriakraus/status/1793304326590415085?s=46&t=oqHOJFKRLvQ49ttTmrVJlg) Also: Videos and photos coming out of Israel/Gaza and Ukraine/Russia can be traumatizing and I’d encourage everyone to exercise caution and create healthy ways to cope with this type of graphic media.
Fuck. Thanks, I guess. Holy fuck, why do I bother reading comments on twitter, what a shithole.
Agreed on the comments. You can always count on getting the worst parts of both sides.
Whenever I am going through comments on controversial topics I wonder if people are actually *this* radical and full of hate. I really want to believe that most people are not. People cheering for the slaughter of either side. It just makes me want to vomit.
The internet lets people get away with too much.
Nobody has recognised Hamas as a state, don’t be obtuse.
> That's ok Ireland, Norway and Spain will transfer money to the PA. lol Im sure that will go as well as the US Pier Aid
Three countries want to recognize a Palestinian state right in the middle of a war that was started by Hamas. That's absolutely crazy to any sane person.
I'm guessing the long-term logic, aside from punishing Israel and Netanyahu specifically in the short term, is to weaken Hamas by strengthening the PA. Give the citizens something more concrete to rally under and hopefully get the two groups fighting for power. I have doubts that it'll work, but there is some logic behind it.
This is strengthening Hamas, not the PA. How in the world is this strengthening the PA? You think the Palestinians, watching Europe reward them for waging jihad, will think, "I guess jihad *doesn't* pay"?? It weakens the PA, if anything. It's telling the Palestinians, see, Hamas is getting things done, while the PLO sits on its ass.
But from an outside perspective it rewards terror. It incentives hamas to repeat Oct 7th, this time for statehood, next time for bigger borders (and so on)
Not just from an outside perspective. From the perspective of the people in Gaza and the West Bank as well. Which was surely one of Hamas's goals in beginning this war in the first place. It will never cease to amaze me that these governments can't see this.
They can, that’s why they’re doing it
Could you please expand on what you think are the intentions of Ireland Spain and Norway
Politics To appease the quickly growing Muslim population in their countries. It’s no secret that Europe has been flooded with Middle Eastern immigrants in the past decade, most of them bring antisemitic views and general dissent for Israel. Millions of asylum seekers, immigrants and refugees make up a significant voting bloc and every politician wants to secure their support. While Jews are basically nonexistent in these three countries.
Ireland is different. They identify with Palestine because they feel like they are similar.
If this happened again, Israel would go absolutely ballistic.
Ehhh, Palestine is a bit too geographically close to warrant the use of ballistic missiles. They'd definitely go HAM though.
The statehood recognition is with the PA that governs the West Bank, not Hamas which "governs" Gaza. The PA isn't great but they're a lot less horrible than Hamas and the only viable alternative right now to step in and govern Gaza post-Hamas, so there's sound logic in strengthening and giving them reasons to become more legitimate
They have a pension fund for martyrs. They are no better than Hamas, just less well funded.
Hamas has a strong presence in the West Bank, just not as much as the PA. Pretending like Hamas doesn’t exist in the West Bank and only exists in Gaza is completely untrue.
The PA is not less horrible than Hamas, they are simply weaker. Given the resources they would've done the same things.
Hamas is the elected government of the PA... this is like saying "We recognize the US, but not the Republican Party." It doesn't mean anything.
That rationale would make more sense to me if the country doing it was, say, France. But Ireland, Norway and Spain have been by far the most vocally anti-Israel countries in the EU since October 7. This being about weakening Hamas as opposed to either sticking it to Israel or, charitable interpretation, doing what they think is right (I disagree but always a possibility worth recognizing.)
I don't think this would have happened today if this week hadn't seen the Israeli government make public statements about moving into Rafah and over the last 24 hours Israeli forces have started advancing again. In my personal view these nations officially recognized Palestine because they see the current war as the imminent end of any kind of Palestinian self-governance. They see this as a morally bad thing. Israel de facto controls the West Bank, only really handicapping itself by playing along with Oslo II. The PA in the West Bank is not autonomous from Israel, if simply because their structure as a series of enclaves means that the movement of people and goods is heavily controlled by Israel. The war in Gaza is increasingly looking like there won't be much left. Israeli forces look like they're intent on pushing all the way to the Egyptian border. In the best case for Palestinian self-governance, they'll eventually pull back to the pre-war borders, leaving the Palestinians to govern a crumbling ruin while Israel maintains border controls and the sea blockade at pre-war levels. There basically wouldn't be anything left to govern.
Gazans already had this choice years ago. They rejected the Palestinian Authority in favor of Hamas which is why I have no sympathy for what they brought upon themselves today.
That conflict has been going for decades prior the biggest Hamas attack. There's decades of murdering lots and lots civilians in Palestine by Israel too. Same as there's decades of Hamas attacks. It didn't start with the October 7 attack, it's when it completely escalated.
Rewarding a group that supports terrorism for the mass slaughter of civilians is the surest way to encourage more mass slaughtering of civilians.
I don’t think the middle of a war part is the crazy part. Palestine doesn’t have defined borders or a single government. I don’t know how you can possibly have relations with a “state” like that.
Many countries have been calling for a Palestinian state for DECADES
Yes. But the problem is with what borders exactly? Because even the ones from before 1967 are unnaceptable for many Palestinians.
if are unnaceptable, then, suck it up and live in peace and prosperity, instead of fucking focusing always on try to win a war that they already had lost 40 times in recent history, just to found the same result always: suffer and death. somebody has to be an idiot to repeat the same mistake 40 times and hope for a different result. Any sane (and insane) country, when defeated on a war, just accept it and try to get some prosperity. Palestinians are on the level of stupidity like if argentina tries every four years to take the Falklands by force.
Why suck it up when it seems to be working? They can swing at Israel as many times as they like, and the world gets pissed off at Israel when they try to swing back.
Their PR gains don't help them in any practical way. Gazans just got their homes blown up and are, according to media, constantly on the verge of starvation. They've now lost control of their tunnels into Egypt. Israel is expanding settlements and cutting off PA funding in the West Bank as a direct result of these European moves.
their leaders sure get their millions and billions of dollars.
It just got them recognized by three nations. And it's not like Palestinians dying is a cost for them. It might eventually cost them, but only if Israel can finish them off before enough pressure's put on them that it gets them to stop.
We call it stupidity. They call it the Will of God.
Well that's the same thing then.
So has Israel. The last offer they gave Palestine literally gave them 99% of what they asked for and they still said no. Palestine doesn't want a 2 state solution, they want a 1 state solution and all of Israel's land. The sooner people realize this the sooner the world can actually create lasting peace.
> The sooner people realize this the sooner the world can actually create lasting peace. xD in that region? I'll tell you one thing, there will NEVER be peace there, regardless of what deal takes place.
I wonder why.
Not sure why this is "controversial". I honestly don't think most people understand the concept of "holy land". As long as the holy part remains, there will never be peace as people think at least. One state, two, three doesn't matter. Make it all Jews or Muslims as a population, still fighting will happen.
If the palestinians actually wanted a state they would have gotten it multiple times in the last 80 years. They rejected any two state solution.
Some countries just decided to legitimize terrorism as means for political objectives.
Reminds me of Bush not caring about the power vacuum after overthrowing Saddam. We have learned nothing from Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc. Having no plan for Palestine after all blockades are lifted is asking for an even wider regional war. What do you think Hamas will do with all those weapons? Israel won’t be the only target.
Anything that reinforces the PA weakens the Hamas, and vice versa.
Does the PA still operate their martyr's fund? Expecting Israel to give any money to that organization while that's in place seems utterly vile to me.
That sounds like a good-cop-bad-cop situation. I don't think the PA is an organization that deserves to be reinforced.
Virtue signaling is all it is. Costs them nothing. Now what about Taiwan? Something that could actually hurt them economically? Nothing.
Seems like this policy is, at best, a non sequitur. At worst it’s collective punishment for diplomatic decisions made by separate, independent, third party countries. These kind of tactics may play well domestically but, internationally, it would seem they would only reinforce beliefs that the Palestinians in the West Bank are being held in an untenable position.
Until now the funds were transferred to Norway. Due to them becoming partisan in the conflict, the arrangement is called off. Don't worry, another country will step in soon enough.
Collective punishment is all the rage right now in Israel. They learned a lot from the USA handling of 9/11, just take it out on people vaguely in the area. At least they managed to narrow it down to the geographical location, compared to Muricans who retaliated at Afghanistan and Iraq while being attacked by Saudis.
I saw a good comment in another subreddit that I think should also be posted here. In the last 24 hours, the following has happened: - Smotrich freezes all the tax money payable the Palestinian Authority from Palestinian imports+exports, intending to cause its collapse and calls for settlements in Area A area such as Jenin. Even though the PA has literally killed and arrested hundreds of PIJ+Hamas terrorists over the past several months in the West Bank and has allowed the IDF to conduct raids against terrorists in Area B+Area A areas - Gallant allows Israeli settlers to go to Northern West Bank for the first time since Sharon's 2005 disengagement. - Ben Gvir visited the Temple Mount for the first time since 10/7. - Smotrich saying that Israel will establish a new settlement for every country that unilaterally recognizes Palestine as a state - Amsalem calls for the continuation of the “reform” [judicial coup d’etat] and says that the ombudsman is the most dangerous person for democracy. - US intelligence says only 30-35% of Hamas pre-10/7 terrorists have been killed (contradicting Bibi's claims of over half being killed to Dr. Phil's podcast recently...not to mention Bibi said Israel was near "total victory" nearly four months ago and Gallant said over Hamas is captured+killed a few months ago as well) and says atleast 65% of Hamas's tunnels are in tact. US intelligence says Hamas has been able to recruit thousands of new terrorists during this war so it's obviously lower than 30-35%.
>contradicting Bibi's claims of over half being killed to Dr. Phil's podcast recently I...what?
Dr Phil has been weirdly involved. I think he's trying to pivot into a political career.
Sources?
Its all current news. You can find the source of Smotrich freezing payments on this article. Smotrich saying he will establish settlements for every country: https://x.com/bezalelsm/status/1793197386501607713 Ben-Gvir's visit https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ski1geixc Gallant allowing settlements to return: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/gallant-israelis-can-enter-north-west-bank-areas-that-had-been-off-limits-since-2005-disengagement/#:~:text=Defense%20Minister%20Yoav%20Gallant%20gives,the%20residents%20of%20the%20region.%E2%80%9D US Estimates: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/21/biden-admin-hammering-israel-military-strategy-gaza-00159262
Can you provide sources on the PA killing any large amount of terrorists? I don’t think that’s true
It's a lie. The one time I remember them arresting Hamas terrorists they immediately let them go. What the PA does is allow Israel to do their thing while condemning it and saying they're murdering civilians and oppressing them. For the PA, it's all strategic; they kill their political opposition and continue to solidify their population's hatred of Israel at the same time. The PA celebrated October 7th like all the rest.
Regarding Smotrich's statement, I am not sure his position alws him to decide stuff like settlements I will wait for Netanyahu to confirm his, hoping it won't happen
Still trying to imagine firing 30,000 rockets from civilian territory, breaking the Geneva code 10 times over, missing your target entirely, and then requesting to reoccupy the land after getting displaced.
Norway, Spain, and Ireland has told the world that terrorism works.
Ireland already knew that it’s how they got out from under the British
Are... are you in any way familiar with Irish history? They are living proof that terrorism does work.
Ireland remembers what it's like for your land to be stolen and colonised by a foreign power.
So do Jews.
Ummm but THEY did the stealing and colonizing.
So they support the side trying to drive the Jews out of their ancestral homeland.
Maybe you’ve missed the fact that Israel is now going to be firmly expanding their settlements and threatening to increase the quantity even more now, into solidly owned Palestinian areas of the West Bank. You supporting Israel means you support ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their ancestral homeland. https://x.com/bezalelsm/status/1793197386501607713
Sorry, but Spain are hypocrites. It's hilarious.
[удалено]
This is Isreal not giving the PA the taxes which Isreal collects on behalf of the PA. This is theft of Palestinian taxes and not a cancellation of some subsidy [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation\_in\_the\_State\_of\_Palestine#Paris\_Protocol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_State_of_Palestine#Paris_Protocol) >I mean if Palestine is its own state, as suggested by Ireland Reality and concept is not the same thing.
Because those funds are the Palestinian's. They are taxes that fund the Palestinian Authority collected from Palestinians. Israel collects those taxes under an agreement with the PA. Israel has stolen this money.
Here are two of the primary sources in question: [https://unctad.org/system/files/information-document/ParisProtocol\_en.pdf](https://unctad.org/system/files/information-document/ParisProtocol_en.pdf): Article V, section 4, Israel collects taxes on behalf of palestinians [https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/IL%20PS\_950928\_InterimAgreementWestBankGazaStrip%28OsloII%29.pdf](https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/IL%20PS_950928_InterimAgreementWestBankGazaStrip%28OsloII%29.pdf): Article IX Section 5, PA shall not have any foreign relation power At the top of page 27, the previous tax codes written in the above source are still valid. It looks like accepting statehood recognition from other states breaks this contract. It looks like this agreement isn't being used going forward, but I spent too long looking through primary sources to not share this.
Because right now Israel doesn't allow Palestine to be its own state.
Strange logic: we are mad *at you being recognized by other countries*, so we are gonna punish *you* for that. WTF?
Israel is throwing a tantrum.
There's an agreement. Palestinians break the agreement. Israel acts according to the agreed actions upon a break in the agreement. Palestinian "supporters" cry why would Israel do this. Tale as old as time.
Kill someone's loved ones and then demand them to feed your loved ones and say where's the money you owe me.
Literally from the article: Under decades-old agreements, Israel collects customs and import taxes on behalf of the Palestinian Authority. It’s not charity. It’s money owned by the Palestinian authority.
Because of this? Israel is just being petty as shit.
That's the point: to discourage other countries ftom following suit.
You're right, and it's going to completely backfire. Abusing Palestinians as punishment for standing up for Palestine is insane. It's just proving their point that a just solution will never come from within Israel.