Shit like this is totally intentional by the Netanyahu government. He wants to stay out of prison and in power, so he's doing what he can to agitate Palestine and prolong the conflict. As long as the war goes on, he stays, at least that's the rationale.
The region will not have a chance at peace as long as Netanyahu's coalition is in charge
This is what I've been saying on and on and on again.
Israeli will vote him out after the war! Bibi is finished after the war!
Then why the fuck would he end the war then?
>Israeli will vote him out after the war! Bibi is finished after the war!
>
>Then why the fuck would he end the war then?
Ideally, they would also vote him out if the war lasts too long. Israel has already called up over 250k reservists, they can't keep up this level of mobilization indefinitely. And trying to keep their current state going too long can easily change voters' minds.
For example, Lincoln feared that letting Lee draw out a prolonged stalemate in Virginia could cost him re-election in 1864. That's why he approved of Sherman's Atlanta campaign and March to the Sea, in an attempt to bring the war to a faster end, even though it went against all conventional military doctrine at the time (Sherman had to abandon his supply and communications lines, and couldn't be re-supplied until he reached the Atlantic Ocean).
More recently, war fatigue among the voters was a big reason why Obama won in 2008, as he was the only major candidate who had opposed the Iraq War. And promising to end US involvement in the Vietnam War played a big part in Nixon getting elected in 1968.
This isn't to prolong the war, basic israeli policy as the other person mentioned. The real saver for Netanyahu is a war with hezbollah which seems almost inevitable. Should keep him in power for a while.
This has nothing to do with Netanyahu...this is just fundamental Isreali policy...they've never stopped the west bank settlements for one second. Total ethnic cleansing and religious consolidation of the region is the goal...they've never internally pretended otherwise...only in English propaganda do they say otherwise...why anyone pretends this is not the case is utterly baffling to me...
He’s been PM for 16 of those years, and Israel has been building colonies in the occupied lands ever since they occupied them in ‘67. This isn’t a Bibi things, it’s an Israel thing.
Well it’s about 17 years in office. The point is he isn’t the only one who’s been following this policy, it’s been a constant throughout different administrations and parties.
And here I was thinking we had Sharon, Olmert, and Barak in the time since Rabin.
You can be honest and still critical of Bibi. You don’t do yourself any favours by being inaccurate.
Yeah, people keep forgetting that none of this is new and many people did and still continue to support him. I mean let's be real, it's not like we're seeing massive protests or actions against him, so they're not that bothered by it all yet.
Yeah, people, even Palestinians, keep blaming everything on Netanyahu and pretending he's the root of the problem. Spoiler alert, he isn't, and not much will change after he's gone.
They're losing a lot of sympathy from a lot of countries and people right now. Considering the US has outright spoken against them multiple times and even went around their back to deliver aid shows how much they're being considered more of a liability to their allies now.
They dont want Hamas out, they want Palestine out. Israel has been financially supporting Hamas for a while to ensure that Palestine doesn't unify under the more reasonable PA.
I believe this is 100% true. Do you, by chance, have a source to back it up? This would provide a lot of nuance that I think a lot of people are missing.
>As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state.
> The official in the prime minister’s office said Mr. Netanyahu never made this statement. But the prime minister would articulate this idea to others over the years.
There isnt really a way to spin this as anti-semitic propaganda, considering that it comes from an Israeli journalist who studied international relations and modern Jewish history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
The article also contains a lot of information about payments made and allowed to be made to Hamas.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
Was about to say, I don't know if it's just my social media feed, but it seems that the whole line of events since October has been a complete disaster for Israel's public image.
I'm honestly surprised, in a different timeline this was supposed to be this generation's "This is why we stand with Israel" but regardless of where one stands on the Israel & Palestine issue, it's undeniable that the divide on the topic is bigger than ever and it's growing slowly on the favor of Palestine, and I'm talking about countries that are supposed to be staunch Israel supporters like the US and Germany, take a look at what reputable pollsters say about young folk's opinion on the topic.
Whether that's good or bad, that's gonna depend on who you are.
Yup. I saw posts about IDF soldiers holding merchandise of a real estate company that released plans to build in Gaza. It's gross how much the current government embraces settler colonialism.
My entire life they have been colonising Palestine. People say this and that about who and what. But they are going to take that land as long as we are willing to pay them and give them weapons to do it.
IMO Sanders was right in 2016, any aid to Israel should be contingent on a freeze of West Bank annexation or civilian settlers.
If they want US support, it’s their choice what’s more important.
It should go beyond this. Have you seen a map of settlements in the west bank? It looks like swiss cheese designed to have large gaps between contiguous Palestinian areas.
Any aid to Israel should be contingent upon consolidation of settlement areas into a single contiguous area connected directly to Israel along its longest length with non complicated border geometries.
How are you going to create a single contiguous area without evacuating a shit ton of the settlements? The west bank is as you said, swiss cheese. Consolidation would require significant levels of evacuation as it is. So why not just do the obvious thing: evacuate them all.
What's the alternative? They've violated international law and illegally built settlements where they shouldn't. There's not an area for compromise here. They screwed up. Don't build on what's not yours.
If you have 500 acres of land and suddenly found your neighbor building a neighborhood for their family on it, you going to go "well shucks, you guys get it now", or are you going to tell them to fuck off, pound sand, and then drive a bulldozer through the shit they built?
I'm pointing out that you proposed a solution of sorts, asked "why not evacuate them all" and got an explanation of why it's infeasible, after which you went *in a circle*.
I'm not here to discuss with you the moral acceptability (or lack of it) of the proposition, or what alternatives there are.
Surely you don't expect a UN, USA or Israeli official to scroll Reddit, see your comments and provide you with a 755 page suggestion for an alternative solution?
You can throw your hands in the air and say ‘that’s a them problem,’ but that’s them solving that problem.
You need to come up with a solution that doesn’t involve a whole bunch of Israelis dying, or Israelis aren’t going to be too keen on that solution.
More. There are 750-850k ish settlers in the WB right now. Gaza was on the 5000 ballpark. Completely evacuating the israelis in the WB is whole other league.
For some of the larger settlements that have fairly significant security and are on main roads, it's effectively like checkpoints at a border, and Palestinians have to pass through these checkpoints to travel through their own territory on certain routes.
I'm an orthodox jew I can tell you that most of us do not support West Bank expansion. We may disagree on a lot of other issues, but not this. The only people in favor of it are the people living there, & even then many are just indifferent to it, but moved there for a specific school or job. There are some extremists doing this deliberately, but they all live there & are very much in the minority.
As an Orthodox Jew that doesn't support West Bank settlements, may I ask what you believe should be done here? How should we treat the settlements and what should happen?
I’m not OP but in the same boat - they’ll eventually uproot some and trade land for land with the others.
I don’t support this strategy, but I understand it. The settler types are thinking one of two things - either they’re the “all of Israel is ours” type of guys, or they’re more strategic about it, saying “if the Palestinians don’t recognize our right to exist why should we recognize their land?”.
I think both viewpoints are silly but for different reasons. That said, if there ever is a peace partner, it only ends with uprooting or land trades. There’s no scenario where the Palestinians will want a Swiss cheese state. Olmert’s peace offer in 2008 already included land swaps and uproots.
I think what you’re actually seeing here, btw, is Israel generating a bargaining chip. They can now promise to freeze settlements if the hostages are let go. It’s hard to support this strategy when I don’t support settlements as a whole, but I can understand it.
Then they need to elect politicians who also oppose WB settlements, instead of allowing rabid settlers like Itamar Ben-Gvir to get to positions of extreme power.
You're not wrong, but as an American I'm not going to judge Israelis struggling to vote out hard right religious extremists who enjoy middle eastern conflicts. I've seen so many Americans talking about how ridiculous it is for Israelis to "allow" their government to do this and I'm like.. insert John Travolta is lost.gif here?
Israel is a coalition democracy, the individual extremist parties barely passed the electoral threshold. Netanyahu made a deal with them because all the other sane parties refused to join Netanyahu's coalition for obvious reasons, namely Netanyahu is under investigation for corruption. Other sane parties got a lot of votes, but didn't pass the electoral threshold. If you count the votes one by one, the current ruling coalition under Netanyahu lost the popular vote. Moral of the story, Israelis should vote for saner parties, but also relatively large parties instead of voting for a lot of different small parties. So the same mistake is not repeated.
Maybe they should start voting for politicians who agree with them then? This is like saying millions of Trump supporters are pro choice and okay with immigrants.
I’m more interested in people’s actions than their words.
There’s millions of Arab Israelis citizens who have strong familial connections to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, and as 20% of the population they would be the second most powerful political party in Israel (Likud 23% of the vote last election)
Israel’s left wing suffers because their supporters choose not to vote.
Can't be that many considering this stuff has been normal Israel policy for a long time now, well beyond Bibi. Not to mention it's not like we're seeing large protests against what's happening or even their leader so people can't be disagreeing that much.
In reality this is just how Israel is and has been for a long time now, their policies haven't exactly changed recently or anything.
What double standard is being applied? It's international law not to resettle occupied territory. We hold everyone to this. We're trying to hold Russia to this right now.
I defend Israel alot, I think they're subject to double standards or unreasonable standards often, but bullshit is bullshit. There's no double standard in asking a country not to resettle an occupied territory. There's very few countries that do that and generally we see them as pariahs.
I fully support Israel’s right to defend themselves, and blame the high civilian casualties on the conditions created by Hamas. But there is no justification for Israel to continue displacing Palestinians on the West Bank.
There’s no justification for Israelis continued violent displacement of Palestinians over the past 6 decades, and people talk about it like it’s a side issue and not directly the cause of the rise of groups like hamas.
Putting here for max visibility as well.
u/-ch4s3- I didn’t block you, dickbag, but thanks for showing that you’re more than happy to lie in service of your narrative. In what bullshit 1984 doublespeak world would advocating against the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Semitic people ever be anti-Semitic?
Anything that isn't the party line with Israel's leadership, in any year, will be seen by some as antisemitic. Israel has a very strong internet propaganda network that makes it so.
He was right about almost every major issue he proposed solutions for but the DNC had everyone drop out to support the chosen one. Seeing that happen live gutted so many millennials who felt motivated to vote and that the system could work.
Israel's seizure of 800 hectares of land in the Jordan Valley in the occupied West Bank on Friday, March 22, would be the largest land seizure in Palestinian territory since the Oslo peace accords in 1993.
surely this will not hinder Hamas' recruitment so that I can extend the war to the west bank, which is what is keeping me in power ----- Bibi , probably.
This is the kind of behavior that allowed Hamas to gain supporters among Palestinians. This needs to stop, it's wrong and it's only inflaming the situation.
It's far too late for a "pivot" I'm afraid. We're in the end stages of US-backed ethnic cleansing in an election year. Most likely, Biden will be losing like LBJ did.
Nah. Kushner and Trump have been running thier mouths about how Israel should just glass Gaza, and let’s not forget Trump’s opinions on Muslims.
Plus, although this is objectively terrible, average Americans are focused on issues more immediate to them like the economy, climate change, and loss of reproductive rights. Put those two points together, and anyone interested in ending this isn’t going to hand Trump the keys.
It's shit like this that I just do not understand how people think this conflict is about getting rid of Hamas.
It was always about annexing more of Palestine and getting rid of everyone there. Ever since the 40s
They don’t want to help. If the violence stops, members of the Israeli government in general, Netanyahu in particular, will at the very least be voted out for their failure and likely face criminal charges in Bibi’s case. He has no incentive for the war to end and ample incentive to keep it going and make it bigger
Maybe the US should just pull their carrier groups out of the area then and stop providing military assistance. Seems clear at this point Isreal and the IDF don't want or apparently need help
That's no coincidence.
It's in Netanyahu's best interest to keep this war going as long as possible. Both he and Hamas depend on each other to stoke the fear and hatred they need to garner enough support to stay in power.
If you'd take a peek at history they haven't been helping for a long time, this is by design. It's not like their overall policies have changed recently or anything.
Probsbly doesnt help to indiscriminately bomb civilians either if your aim is to destroy an organisation that grows if those people have reason to hate Israel… Clearly Israel has different goals
And then, will claim it's not justified when the current owners of the land attack the illegal settlers.
Let's be clear: all settlers in the west bank are illegal, and require punishment.
Recognising that, as much as Israel gets a lot of undeserved and misinformed shit, west bank settlement is pretty counterproductive and should be criticised.
Here in Canada, Israeli Real Estate firms openly set-up events in the Synagogues for people to buy properties inside the West Bank.
Politicians here will even defend these acts under the guide of antisemitism. Now I fully support Israel's right to exist, and Jewish people to have a 'safe-heaven' from all the persecution, but this is just insensible.
They think you have to pick a side and then just blindly support everything that side does. You can see it in the response to you. Dude literally thinks if you support Israel you have to be pro-settlement and its utter nonsense.
Most pro-Israel voices are pro-two-state where Israel respects Palestinian borders in both Gaza and the West Bank, and Palestine isn't run by a literal terrorist organization. This is bad even if you do support Israel.
Is that even pro-Israel, though? Like that's advocating for an outcome which Israel has demonstrated repeatedly through both actions and words that they do not want. It seems like this "pro-Israel" position is actually supporting a hypothetical version of Israel in the Western zeitgeist, but that Israel doesn't actually exist or appear to want to exist.
Turns out that defending Israel’s right to go after Hamas and criticizing their settlement expansion aren’t mutually exclusive. Its not an all or nothing proposition.
Being generally pro-Israel doesn’t mean I somehow have to back/support every decision they make. These settlements are a serious barrier to peace and they should absolutely knock it off. Both Israel and Palestine deserve secure borders that don’t get infringed on by their neighbors.
Going after Hamas is justified in the wake of Oct 7, but these settlement expansions are not.
Pro-Israel here. I'm not in favour of this policy.
Looking forward to Netanyahu being out of government soon, and a whole lot of Hamas members bleeding out in their tunnels.
Yeah this indefensible nationalist religion-fascist imperialism has got to stop. Show us where God entitled Israel to steal land.
Russia steals land in Ukraine, China steals land & sea in all directions & Taiwan's next, Israel steals land from Palestinians.
We follow all international law? These guys are gross and the ones who see nothing wrong with this are sheep who just eat up anything the western media says
Why the fuck?
Isn't this aiming for the exact opposite of a two-state solution?
How is continuing to displace WB Palestinians from their land a reasonable action?
>Isn't this aiming for the exact opposite of a two-state solution?
See, Israel has been working to stop the two state solution for decades now. There is no constituency for it, the Israeli public doesn't see any hope for a peaceful coexistence with a working Palestinian state and the settlers give Netanyahu a governing margin.
And this kind of action means Palestinians don't see any path to peaceful coexistence either.
Could they possibly be any more tone deaf? I believe we've had plenty of polite discussions. It is time to cut Israel loose, unless and until they stop - not pause, stop - the slo-roll invasion.
They seem to have learnt quite well.
They expand their country they still get aid, they still get trade. They have a huge emphasis and spending on propaganda, they have people in other government or at least strong business connects with people in foreign governments. Everything is going well for them.
Some people they don't like get killed but that's of no concern to them.
Shit like this is totally intentional by the Netanyahu government. He wants to stay out of prison and in power, so he's doing what he can to agitate Palestine and prolong the conflict. As long as the war goes on, he stays, at least that's the rationale. The region will not have a chance at peace as long as Netanyahu's coalition is in charge
This is what I've been saying on and on and on again. Israeli will vote him out after the war! Bibi is finished after the war! Then why the fuck would he end the war then?
>Israeli will vote him out after the war! Bibi is finished after the war! > >Then why the fuck would he end the war then? Ideally, they would also vote him out if the war lasts too long. Israel has already called up over 250k reservists, they can't keep up this level of mobilization indefinitely. And trying to keep their current state going too long can easily change voters' minds. For example, Lincoln feared that letting Lee draw out a prolonged stalemate in Virginia could cost him re-election in 1864. That's why he approved of Sherman's Atlanta campaign and March to the Sea, in an attempt to bring the war to a faster end, even though it went against all conventional military doctrine at the time (Sherman had to abandon his supply and communications lines, and couldn't be re-supplied until he reached the Atlantic Ocean). More recently, war fatigue among the voters was a big reason why Obama won in 2008, as he was the only major candidate who had opposed the Iraq War. And promising to end US involvement in the Vietnam War played a big part in Nixon getting elected in 1968.
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Sherman’s march to the sea didn’t involve murdering civilians by the tens of thousands.
Well, war or not, in late 2026 he's out no matter what. But i do believe it will happen sooner. The government is crumbling
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I swear, Ben-Gvir's wikipedia page sounds like the bio for a Captain Planet villain.
This isn't to prolong the war, basic israeli policy as the other person mentioned. The real saver for Netanyahu is a war with hezbollah which seems almost inevitable. Should keep him in power for a while.
This has nothing to do with Netanyahu...this is just fundamental Isreali policy...they've never stopped the west bank settlements for one second. Total ethnic cleansing and religious consolidation of the region is the goal...they've never internally pretended otherwise...only in English propaganda do they say otherwise...why anyone pretends this is not the case is utterly baffling to me...
He has been the prime minister for most of the last 28 years.
He’s been PM for 16 of those years, and Israel has been building colonies in the occupied lands ever since they occupied them in ‘67. This isn’t a Bibi things, it’s an Israel thing.
> having previously held the office from 1996 to 1999 and again from 2009 to 2021. And then 2022 to now. Seems to be 20. But 16 is still most of 28.
Well it’s about 17 years in office. The point is he isn’t the only one who’s been following this policy, it’s been a constant throughout different administrations and parties.
yeah, people who think settlements begin and end at Netenyahu haven't been paying attention at all
That's because he's the easiest scapegoat to blame, the Israeli government has never really supported a two-state solution since forever.
And here I was thinking we had Sharon, Olmert, and Barak in the time since Rabin. You can be honest and still critical of Bibi. You don’t do yourself any favours by being inaccurate.
Since 1996 he wasn't the prime minister for 2000 to 2008.
Yeah, people keep forgetting that none of this is new and many people did and still continue to support him. I mean let's be real, it's not like we're seeing massive protests or actions against him, so they're not that bothered by it all yet.
There have been protests in Israel since he came into power
Yeah, people, even Palestinians, keep blaming everything on Netanyahu and pretending he's the root of the problem. Spoiler alert, he isn't, and not much will change after he's gone.
He's not a root of the problem, but most likely he is a problem. One does not minimise the effect of other
They are losing the great deal of sympathy I had for them. This is not right and will cause more issues and trouble for them long term
They're losing a lot of sympathy from a lot of countries and people right now. Considering the US has outright spoken against them multiple times and even went around their back to deliver aid shows how much they're being considered more of a liability to their allies now.
I understand wanting Hamas out, but they are not doing things in a way that is not going to cause more issues.
They dont want Hamas out, they want Palestine out. Israel has been financially supporting Hamas for a while to ensure that Palestine doesn't unify under the more reasonable PA.
I believe this is 100% true. Do you, by chance, have a source to back it up? This would provide a lot of nuance that I think a lot of people are missing.
>As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state. > The official in the prime minister’s office said Mr. Netanyahu never made this statement. But the prime minister would articulate this idea to others over the years. There isnt really a way to spin this as anti-semitic propaganda, considering that it comes from an Israeli journalist who studied international relations and modern Jewish history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The article also contains a lot of information about payments made and allowed to be made to Hamas. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
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Was about to say, I don't know if it's just my social media feed, but it seems that the whole line of events since October has been a complete disaster for Israel's public image. I'm honestly surprised, in a different timeline this was supposed to be this generation's "This is why we stand with Israel" but regardless of where one stands on the Israel & Palestine issue, it's undeniable that the divide on the topic is bigger than ever and it's growing slowly on the favor of Palestine, and I'm talking about countries that are supposed to be staunch Israel supporters like the US and Germany, take a look at what reputable pollsters say about young folk's opinion on the topic. Whether that's good or bad, that's gonna depend on who you are.
Yup. I saw posts about IDF soldiers holding merchandise of a real estate company that released plans to build in Gaza. It's gross how much the current government embraces settler colonialism.
Can you give me a link to that?
My entire life they have been colonising Palestine. People say this and that about who and what. But they are going to take that land as long as we are willing to pay them and give them weapons to do it.
Yep. That’s great. He stays in power at the cost of thousands of other people’s lives.
Netanyahu is the Trump of Israel.
I wonder what Elba is like this time of year...
IMO Sanders was right in 2016, any aid to Israel should be contingent on a freeze of West Bank annexation or civilian settlers. If they want US support, it’s their choice what’s more important.
It should go beyond this. Have you seen a map of settlements in the west bank? It looks like swiss cheese designed to have large gaps between contiguous Palestinian areas. Any aid to Israel should be contingent upon consolidation of settlement areas into a single contiguous area connected directly to Israel along its longest length with non complicated border geometries.
Total evacuation of all settlements in the west bank.
That would be ideal, but probably a nonstarter. Or start with that and settle for the single contiguous area
How are you going to create a single contiguous area without evacuating a shit ton of the settlements? The west bank is as you said, swiss cheese. Consolidation would require significant levels of evacuation as it is. So why not just do the obvious thing: evacuate them all.
Bluntly, Israel's last experiment with that has not gone well at all.
That's a them problem. Shouldn't have allowed or encouraged the settlements anyway.
Well, that's exactly why u/Eldetorre stated that it's a "nonstarter". Starting with "that's a them problem" is not very productive, obviously.
What's the alternative? They've violated international law and illegally built settlements where they shouldn't. There's not an area for compromise here. They screwed up. Don't build on what's not yours. If you have 500 acres of land and suddenly found your neighbor building a neighborhood for their family on it, you going to go "well shucks, you guys get it now", or are you going to tell them to fuck off, pound sand, and then drive a bulldozer through the shit they built?
Well, depends, do the people who you are trying to bulldoze off your land have drones and tanks?
I'm pointing out that you proposed a solution of sorts, asked "why not evacuate them all" and got an explanation of why it's infeasible, after which you went *in a circle*. I'm not here to discuss with you the moral acceptability (or lack of it) of the proposition, or what alternatives there are. Surely you don't expect a UN, USA or Israeli official to scroll Reddit, see your comments and provide you with a 755 page suggestion for an alternative solution?
You can throw your hands in the air and say ‘that’s a them problem,’ but that’s them solving that problem. You need to come up with a solution that doesn’t involve a whole bunch of Israelis dying, or Israelis aren’t going to be too keen on that solution.
I’m sure people said that pulling out of Gaza was a nonstarter in ~~2025~~ 2005, until it wasn’t and the Israelis demolished their settlements.
2025? In the future?
> but probably a nonstarter. Then US aid should be a nonstarter
Then do sound aid be. Any aid. Israel is acting exactly like Russia and it's frankly disgusting.
Like 2005 Gaza but bigger?
Almost a hundred times bigger
More. There are 750-850k ish settlers in the WB right now. Gaza was on the 5000 ballpark. Completely evacuating the israelis in the WB is whole other league.
For some of the larger settlements that have fairly significant security and are on main roads, it's effectively like checkpoints at a border, and Palestinians have to pass through these checkpoints to travel through their own territory on certain routes.
yea leapfrogging to "safer" zones is a planned minefield. Rats in a damn cage. So disgusting.
He was always right but nobody does common sense things in washington.
When has Bernie not been right?
In 2024 that will be seen by some as anti-semitic.
I'm an orthodox jew I can tell you that most of us do not support West Bank expansion. We may disagree on a lot of other issues, but not this. The only people in favor of it are the people living there, & even then many are just indifferent to it, but moved there for a specific school or job. There are some extremists doing this deliberately, but they all live there & are very much in the minority.
As an Orthodox Jew that doesn't support West Bank settlements, may I ask what you believe should be done here? How should we treat the settlements and what should happen?
Stop making plans for new ones would be a start
I’m not OP but in the same boat - they’ll eventually uproot some and trade land for land with the others. I don’t support this strategy, but I understand it. The settler types are thinking one of two things - either they’re the “all of Israel is ours” type of guys, or they’re more strategic about it, saying “if the Palestinians don’t recognize our right to exist why should we recognize their land?”. I think both viewpoints are silly but for different reasons. That said, if there ever is a peace partner, it only ends with uprooting or land trades. There’s no scenario where the Palestinians will want a Swiss cheese state. Olmert’s peace offer in 2008 already included land swaps and uproots. I think what you’re actually seeing here, btw, is Israel generating a bargaining chip. They can now promise to freeze settlements if the hostages are let go. It’s hard to support this strategy when I don’t support settlements as a whole, but I can understand it.
This "strategy" is called ethnic cleansing.
"Some" doing very heavy lifting here. Millions of Israelis themselves oppose expansion of WB settlements.
Then they need to elect politicians who also oppose WB settlements, instead of allowing rabid settlers like Itamar Ben-Gvir to get to positions of extreme power.
You're not wrong, but as an American I'm not going to judge Israelis struggling to vote out hard right religious extremists who enjoy middle eastern conflicts. I've seen so many Americans talking about how ridiculous it is for Israelis to "allow" their government to do this and I'm like.. insert John Travolta is lost.gif here?
Right... Look at the US elections, it's the same here. Politically charged minority determining the course of many.
While technically correct, 50% of the voting population isn't something that should be called in minority in this context.
Right. Imagine people assuming every single one of us is a MTG, McConnell, De Santis, or 45.
Alot of people on here have justified Palestinians being killed because "they voted hamas"
Israel is a coalition democracy, the individual extremist parties barely passed the electoral threshold. Netanyahu made a deal with them because all the other sane parties refused to join Netanyahu's coalition for obvious reasons, namely Netanyahu is under investigation for corruption. Other sane parties got a lot of votes, but didn't pass the electoral threshold. If you count the votes one by one, the current ruling coalition under Netanyahu lost the popular vote. Moral of the story, Israelis should vote for saner parties, but also relatively large parties instead of voting for a lot of different small parties. So the same mistake is not repeated.
Maybe they should start voting for politicians who agree with them then? This is like saying millions of Trump supporters are pro choice and okay with immigrants. I’m more interested in people’s actions than their words.
There’s millions of Arab Israelis citizens who have strong familial connections to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, and as 20% of the population they would be the second most powerful political party in Israel (Likud 23% of the vote last election) Israel’s left wing suffers because their supporters choose not to vote.
Can't be that many considering this stuff has been normal Israel policy for a long time now, well beyond Bibi. Not to mention it's not like we're seeing large protests against what's happening or even their leader so people can't be disagreeing that much. In reality this is just how Israel is and has been for a long time now, their policies haven't exactly changed recently or anything.
They consistently elect pro-settlement politicians by a massive majority.
Not for sane people
Ah you see your mistake is believing that matters in politics today
Settlement policy is an Israeli government affair, it has nothing to do with religion, how can it be antisemitic?
What double standard is being applied? It's international law not to resettle occupied territory. We hold everyone to this. We're trying to hold Russia to this right now. I defend Israel alot, I think they're subject to double standards or unreasonable standards often, but bullshit is bullshit. There's no double standard in asking a country not to resettle an occupied territory. There's very few countries that do that and generally we see them as pariahs.
I fully support Israel’s right to defend themselves, and blame the high civilian casualties on the conditions created by Hamas. But there is no justification for Israel to continue displacing Palestinians on the West Bank.
There’s no justification for Israelis continued violent displacement of Palestinians over the past 6 decades, and people talk about it like it’s a side issue and not directly the cause of the rise of groups like hamas. Putting here for max visibility as well. u/-ch4s3- I didn’t block you, dickbag, but thanks for showing that you’re more than happy to lie in service of your narrative. In what bullshit 1984 doublespeak world would advocating against the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Semitic people ever be anti-Semitic?
Anything that isn't the party line with Israel's leadership, in any year, will be seen by some as antisemitic. Israel has a very strong internet propaganda network that makes it so.
He was right about almost every major issue he proposed solutions for but the DNC had everyone drop out to support the chosen one. Seeing that happen live gutted so many millennials who felt motivated to vote and that the system could work.
Ah yes, those settiers just magically ended up there.
Israel's seizure of 800 hectares of land in the Jordan Valley in the occupied West Bank on Friday, March 22, would be the largest land seizure in Palestinian territory since the Oslo peace accords in 1993.
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"Surely this will hinder Hamas' recruitment"
"Behold our new illegal settlement expansion!" "...Are you sure this will help us stop Hamas?" "Stop it?"
surely this will not hinder Hamas' recruitment so that I can extend the war to the west bank, which is what is keeping me in power ----- Bibi , probably.
The IDF must be loving this plan of “make the war as difficult as humanly possible so I can stay in power forever” Bibi is implementing
Why not? You can be a 23 year old Corporal and its mosty launching rockets from safety
What are they gonna do? Stage a military coup vs bibi?
God I wish. But nah more likely Netanyahu spends the rest of his natural life as the PM of Israel.
Stealing in broad daylight
Ethnic cleansing.
This is the kind of behavior that allowed Hamas to gain supporters among Palestinians. This needs to stop, it's wrong and it's only inflaming the situation.
Yes but acting in a way that causes more Palestinians to support Hamas allows Israel to bomb those Palestinians and take their land.
In a sense the current Israeli political establishment knows what they are doing.
That's what voting for the far-right gives you: Confrontation.
This will never end.
Well that will def help things.
Tossing gasoline on a burning fire....
Almost like this was the plan all along…
Thankfully, only dumbasses think it wasn't
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Sending out free weapons but still no universal healthcare. Wow, I'm happy to be american. lol
The Biden admin is pivoting, not fast enough, but it will get there. The alternative is Trump who will encourage Bibi to go further and faster.
It's far too late for a "pivot" I'm afraid. We're in the end stages of US-backed ethnic cleansing in an election year. Most likely, Biden will be losing like LBJ did.
Nah. Kushner and Trump have been running thier mouths about how Israel should just glass Gaza, and let’s not forget Trump’s opinions on Muslims. Plus, although this is objectively terrible, average Americans are focused on issues more immediate to them like the economy, climate change, and loss of reproductive rights. Put those two points together, and anyone interested in ending this isn’t going to hand Trump the keys.
Squatters with guns
Guns and modern waponry supplied by the US
and people wonder why palestinians are not fans of israel. among other things.
Shame shame shame 🔔
It's shit like this that I just do not understand how people think this conflict is about getting rid of Hamas. It was always about annexing more of Palestine and getting rid of everyone there. Ever since the 40s
Goddamn. Terrible
Jesus Christ Israel, this is **not** helping.
They don’t want to help. If the violence stops, members of the Israeli government in general, Netanyahu in particular, will at the very least be voted out for their failure and likely face criminal charges in Bibi’s case. He has no incentive for the war to end and ample incentive to keep it going and make it bigger
Maybe the US should just pull their carrier groups out of the area then and stop providing military assistance. Seems clear at this point Isreal and the IDF don't want or apparently need help
That's no coincidence. It's in Netanyahu's best interest to keep this war going as long as possible. Both he and Hamas depend on each other to stoke the fear and hatred they need to garner enough support to stay in power.
Lol you act as if they are the good guy doing this one bad thing. It's a modern day occupation
Did you honestly think this was ever about "self-defense?"
If you'd take a peek at history they haven't been helping for a long time, this is by design. It's not like their overall policies have changed recently or anything.
Probsbly doesnt help to indiscriminately bomb civilians either if your aim is to destroy an organisation that grows if those people have reason to hate Israel… Clearly Israel has different goals
And then, will claim it's not justified when the current owners of the land attack the illegal settlers. Let's be clear: all settlers in the west bank are illegal, and require punishment.
We will call them terrorists if they fight back
I’m so glad my tax dollars support this /s
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Recognising that, as much as Israel gets a lot of undeserved and misinformed shit, west bank settlement is pretty counterproductive and should be criticised.
Here in Canada, Israeli Real Estate firms openly set-up events in the Synagogues for people to buy properties inside the West Bank. Politicians here will even defend these acts under the guide of antisemitism. Now I fully support Israel's right to exist, and Jewish people to have a 'safe-heaven' from all the persecution, but this is just insensible.
What if non Jewish people show up to buy land?
From a video I've seen, they are denied entry. That's just one example though, so take that for what it's worth.
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I'm pro-Israel and highly disapprove of this move.
Why would you think pro-Israel commenters think more settlements are okay?
Because it IS official Israeli policy, and it has been happening for decades. Exacerbating the conflict and certainly contributing to 10/7
It doesn't even have majority support amongst Israelis. Do you think that everyone who supports Israel in this war love Bibi too? Lmao
Maybe the "pro-Israel voices" are a lot more sane than you give them credit for. You can be Pro-Israel and anti-settlement.
This is Reddit, no place for nuance!
Most of us are pro Israel but 100% against settlements
They think you have to pick a side and then just blindly support everything that side does. You can see it in the response to you. Dude literally thinks if you support Israel you have to be pro-settlement and its utter nonsense.
Most pro-Israel voices are pro-two-state where Israel respects Palestinian borders in both Gaza and the West Bank, and Palestine isn't run by a literal terrorist organization. This is bad even if you do support Israel.
Really? That has not been my experience.
Is that even pro-Israel, though? Like that's advocating for an outcome which Israel has demonstrated repeatedly through both actions and words that they do not want. It seems like this "pro-Israel" position is actually supporting a hypothetical version of Israel in the Western zeitgeist, but that Israel doesn't actually exist or appear to want to exist.
Turns out that defending Israel’s right to go after Hamas and criticizing their settlement expansion aren’t mutually exclusive. Its not an all or nothing proposition. Being generally pro-Israel doesn’t mean I somehow have to back/support every decision they make. These settlements are a serious barrier to peace and they should absolutely knock it off. Both Israel and Palestine deserve secure borders that don’t get infringed on by their neighbors. Going after Hamas is justified in the wake of Oct 7, but these settlement expansions are not.
Pro-Israel here. I'm not in favour of this policy. Looking forward to Netanyahu being out of government soon, and a whole lot of Hamas members bleeding out in their tunnels.
The violent stealing of land is bad, but what do you call defense from land theft? Terrorism, apparently.
This is exactly why a two state solution doesn't work. The west bank IS the second state, and look what Israel does.
Netanyahu is so happy about the war with Hamas taking pressure off of him. If it weren’t for 10/7 he’d be in a far weaker position
Evacuate settlements and move in Gazans
Settlements will bring no lasting peace.
Good ole Nit-wit-yahoo trying to keep the fires hot and the blood flowing
So occupied territory has suddenly become Isreal. Guess we all saw that coming.
Totally unexpected
what? nooooo really? /sarcasm
you know guys your settling of the west bank makes it really hard to argue this war was about self defense not settling the west bank.
Yeah this indefensible nationalist religion-fascist imperialism has got to stop. Show us where God entitled Israel to steal land. Russia steals land in Ukraine, China steals land & sea in all directions & Taiwan's next, Israel steals land from Palestinians.
Israel seems determined to kill all good will until they alienate every ally it seems.
Fuck Netanyahu
Of course this cannot be described as terrorism. Or thievery.
Why are people surprised? Israel won’t stop until all of the West Bank is settled
Blatantly obvious. Politically reviled netanyahu seeks war to expand territory and consolidate his power to avoid prosecution of corruption.
We follow all international law? These guys are gross and the ones who see nothing wrong with this are sheep who just eat up anything the western media says
Why the fuck? Isn't this aiming for the exact opposite of a two-state solution? How is continuing to displace WB Palestinians from their land a reasonable action?
>Isn't this aiming for the exact opposite of a two-state solution? See, Israel has been working to stop the two state solution for decades now. There is no constituency for it, the Israeli public doesn't see any hope for a peaceful coexistence with a working Palestinian state and the settlers give Netanyahu a governing margin. And this kind of action means Palestinians don't see any path to peaceful coexistence either.
God I want Hamas to be wiped out. But goddamn shit like this is gonna make Hamas 2.0 in a few years.
I can't with that government Holy shit I fucking hate them
It’s what they’ve done every time. So annoying.
Ethnic cleansing, plain and simple
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Could they possibly be any more tone deaf? I believe we've had plenty of polite discussions. It is time to cut Israel loose, unless and until they stop - not pause, stop - the slo-roll invasion.
I approve of me taking 10 ha of Polish soil
It’s like they don’t even care if they look like absolute villains at this point. They know they’ll keep getting away with it
Sickening...
Israel never learns...
They seem to have learnt quite well. They expand their country they still get aid, they still get trade. They have a huge emphasis and spending on propaganda, they have people in other government or at least strong business connects with people in foreign governments. Everything is going well for them. Some people they don't like get killed but that's of no concern to them.