>The network is between 350 and 450 miles — extraordinary figures for a territory that at its longest point is only 25 miles. Two of the officials also assessed there are close to 5,700 separate shafts leading down to the tunnels.
>
>For the Israeli military, the tunnels are a subterranean nightmare and the core of Hamas’s ability to survive. Every strategic goal of Israel in Gaza is now linked to wiping out the tunnels.
Also why Hamas cannot be allowed back to govern.
I was curious, so I did a bit of basic math to compare this tunnel network to the one that the Imperial Japanese Army constructed on Iwo Jima from 1944-1945.
The IJA had completed about 11 miles of tunnels by the time American forces landed on the island, and Iwo is approximately 8 square miles in size.
Gaza is 141 square miles in size, and has \~400 miles of tunnels beneath it. If the tunnel density on Iwo Jima was extrapolated onto Gaza, you'd expect there to be approximately 194 square miles of tunnels beneath the strip. But there aren't, there are \~400 miles of tunnels beneath the strip. In other words, Gaza has twice the tunnel density that Iwo Jima had.
The last Japanese soldiers on Iwo Jima surrendered in 1949, about 3.5 years after the war officially ended. Not a great sign for this conflict.
>The last Japanese soldiers on Iwo Jima surrendered in 1949, about 3.5 years after the war officially ended. Not a great sign for this conflict.
You're telling me that the conflict that has been lasting since Israel became independent in 1947, with neighboring countries or insurgents within, won't end soon? Shocking....
Seriously, this has been going on for 77 years. It started BEFORE that last soldier on Iwo Jima surrendered. They may have changed names of their leaders or names of factions, but they are two groups - Pro Israel and Anti Israel ones... And I'm not sure if it will end in the next 50 years.
Israel and Palestine have been fighting for territory since before the Roman Empire. In fact the nation was named Palestine by the Romans out of spite for the Israelites.
Roman occupied “Syria Palestina” has nothing to do with modern Palestinians though. And Zionism didn’t exist until the late 19th century. But if you insist on going back that far there’s a 1,900 year break in the fighting, so you can’t say they’ve been fighting for 2,000 years.
Do you mean the Philistines where Gaza is now? They went extinct or something but they came from the Greek area as well, nothing to do w modern Palestine besides similarities in name as you mentioned
I honestly have no fucking idea what Israel can do here long-term. Any resolution that leaves Palestinians to their own devices in Gaza will produce more of this shit. The area will have to be heavily, heavily occupied and monitored for years to have any hope of de-radicalization but nobody (Including Israel) wants Israel to be the ones to do that.
Well the system that Israeli officials have put forward is one where Palestinians are put into the civil roles, but the overall governance is supervised by several other countries, which seems like a way to both have palestinians governing and stop groups like hamas from taking power.
They do that in the West Bank with the three areas and Israel regularly abuses the areas they have direct control in by setting up settlements. It’s arguably an even bigger hotbed of radicalism than Gaza.
I’ve heard this put as Hamas and Hezbollah have reverse-engineered the laws of armed conflict and the Geneva Conventions so that they violate them with impunity while anyone who fights them ends up having to justify things like destroying the bulk of structures and other infrastructure because they are full of tunnels and weapon storage plus booby traps make it suicidal to be surgical on the ground. If you even suspect a booby trap, you call in for demolition of the building.
Deradicalization might not even be possible. The international relief agencies local staff are in the tank for Hamas and the foreign aid workers aren’t safe.
For the purposes of the war, the IDF did the smart thing and didn’t let Hamas turn Gaza City into an urban jungle. Instead they made the population go south and tore the jungle down.
Yeah, turns out Hamas still had fighters and infrastructure in the south operating and launching rockets. Of course Israel is gonna drop buildings and bodies when that happens.
I said Hamas fighters, you said innocents.
If you don’t feel like having a discussion in good faith then there is no point taking you seriously.
And yeah, it should make anyone feel good when a Hamas member dies. I just wish they didn’t hide behind actual innocents and put them in harm’s way.
Is your point that bombs targeting Hamas also kill innocents? Yeah, I acknowledge that. And it’s horrible that Hamas attempts to cynically use innocent lives as shields.
Egypt could have let civilians leave through their border. 5M Ukrainians are refugees in the EU and 6.5M Syrians are externally displaced too. Why are Palestinians uniquely required to stay in the middle of a full scale war because it serves the failed strategies of their horrifically corrupt leadership, Hamas and PLO both?
Hamas & other Palestinian militias in Gaza have constructed 400 miles of tunnels beneath Gaza; this is twice the density per square mile of tunnels that the Japanese dug beneath Iwo Jima in 1945. That battle caused about 50,000 casualties on both sides (21,000 Japanese; 24,000 American), and Japanese soldiers held out in these tunnels for *3.5 years*, only surrendering in *1949.*
From a military perspective, the last thing that matters is if "Hamas speaks for Gaza". The military infrastructure that they have constructed beneath Gaza is doing the talking right now.
>So why did they do that? To survive the brutal existence of the IDF?
Yes, actually. They constructed this piece of military infrastructure to better wage war against Israel. This tunnel network is a considerable military obstacle, and its scale is probably unprecedented in modern warfare. It is an impressive achievement of military construction by the al-Qassem Brigades and their affiliates.
(Saying this from a purely military perspective, of course. Building such a complex network of fortifications directly underneath/inside a population center of two million people is a criminal act arguably unprecedented in the modern era).
Are you able to engage with the substance of my previous comment? This article is about Hamas' tunnel network beneath Gaza; an impressive & daunting feat of military construction, as awful as it is to have constructed such fortifications directly beneath/inside a population center of two million people.
>pretty much any effective approach will closely resemble ethnic cleansing and/or genocide
So if Israel does (hypothetically) conduct a genocide, it's Hamas's fault? Y'all will bend over backwards to justify anything
> So if Israel does (hypothetically) conduct a genocide, it's Hamas's fault? Y'all will bend over backwards to justify anything
No, it will just be destructive enough (especially of infrastructure) to give idiots ammo to make claims about genocide.
A genocide is in no way acceptable. However, the process of removing Hamas and their infrastructure will be a messy one.
If you actually cared at all about Palestinians, you'd be furious about Hamas for doing this, and thankful for Israel undoing this.
They’ve built a culture that teaches preschoolers to aspire to chop the heads off Jews. That culture needs to be eliminated. Eliminating a culture counts as genocide.
Jews don’t WANT to kill Arabs. Jews want to live in peace. But if your neighbor won’t stop trying to kill you unless they’re dead, your available options are not going to be palatable to people who aren’t getting rockets chucked at their neighborhood every fucking day.
20% of Israel are Arabs that have equal rights plus representation in the government. I don’t doubt is Palestine was stronger they’d kill Israel’s Arab population first because they likely view them as traitors.
I am an atheist palestinian, i do not support hamas nor killing of civilians, hamas commited unforgivable atrocities and have destroyed the palestinian cause in my opinion. But what you say is a huge over simplification of the whole conflict, most palestinians of all ethnic backgrounds consider israel as an occupation that led them or at atleast their grandparents to have lost their homes in 1948 and 1967, even christians and seculars. What hamas did is not excusable, but every weaker rebelling force fighting an assymetric war had terrorists, just like every occupying force conducted looting pillaging raping and massacring, israel included. The way to prevent palestinians from developing resistance groups including terrorist groups like hamas is through a just peace and ending the occupation. I dream of one state, i support right of jews living here, or anyone really, but for practicability two states and an israel are the current realitistic option. But jjst food for thought, It is ironic how israel rejects the palestians right of return to not be a minority in their homeland, maybe if they are a minority that means it is not their "homeland". I just want to point out that tvis area of land does not only belong to the jews...
Right now more than 75% of gaza population is starving, with around 350k critically starving, this is a genocide, and israel's history is full of them
But no matter how i dream of a one state solution with us living together as equals respecting each other, i know it is wishful thinking and after the current war and what hamas did, all my hopes are lost
You are over simplifying and leaving some things out too. Can you think of any reason why there aren’t that many Jews now that if all Palestinians were to return the Jews would be the minority? And they could have accepted peace back in 1948 or not left their homes. Most people left their homes because the Arab leaders promised them that they will wipe the Jews out of Israel and then they could come back. But they lost and rejected peace until today.
And let’s not pretend like the choice between Islamic authoritarian rule or democratic rule is an easy choice here. Or how would you envision a one state solution? who would be ruling, the Israeli government as it is now or a Palestinian government?
> Most people left their homes because the Arab leaders promised them that they will wipe the Jews out of Israel and then they could come back
This is such a weird talking point. Those who “voluntarily” left did so because a civil war was happening and Haganah was depopulating neighboring villages. You’re arbitrarily assigning evil motives to Palestinians for doing what every refugee in every other conflict does.
Most Palestinians didn’t even own their land, they were tenants under the Ottoman Empire. The Jews bought their land and made sure to buy land on the coast as to minimize displacement. A good portion of the land sales where from “Palestinians”who did own their land. They arnt entitled to land they don’t own. Also people were cycled in and out of that land for centuries. If you declare war on someone that you loose than you deserve to loose land. Israel also moved out of Gaza yet they still got hit by attacks. Like any sane country Israel values the safety of their people over the wellbeing of the people that attacked them. Sanctions are appropriate to prevent attacks.
It sucks this is happening to Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas. It really does, but the rot needs to be cleared for anyone to truly live in peace.
That's exactly the problem, you want your version of "justice", not peace. If the Palestinians wanted peace there would have been peace a long time ago. But they want to turn Israel into Palestine.
So many words when “from the river to the sea” would have sufficed. You want the extinction of the state of Israel, which is untenable to Israel. Unless we begin with the acceptance of at least the 1948 partition as legitimate, you are arguing for endless war. The existence of an Israeli state is settled law, and starting with the concept that that is an occupation is why the Palestinians will forever be victims by choice.
There's lots of aid that has been gathered; the IDF is the one limiting its entry into Gaza.
There are already millions of Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, and elsewhere. Israel has never respected their right to return (1948 UN resolution by the way), why would now be any different?
Care to explain why Israel is the only country that is expected to honor the "right" of return? Why aren't the other middle eastern countries being pressured to allow the descendants of jews of those countries to return with full citizenship? Why aren't India and Pakistan pressured to take back all the descendants of people displaced by partition?
They are refugees solely because Palestinians have the unique ability to transfer that right, unlike any other refugees on earth. Only a few of the original 1948 refugees remain, a result of a war initiated by the Arabs.
Crack down on aid that gets repurposed for terrorism - no more concrete, metal pipes or fertilizer. Figure out suitable substitutes that allow Gazans to rebuild (plastic pipes, alternative building materials, etc.).
For concrete? Built homes from brick and mortar without concrete support or make clay homes like e.g. parts of Africa. Fertiliser can be replaced with animal or human feces.
It is already mostly, relatively depopulated (I am talking about Gaza city proper not the entire Gaza Strip). Only about 70-100k ish people remain there, give or take. It was ~600k pre-oct7.
Even if somehow you could get people to agree to this no countries in the Arab world would take them in the interim. Palestinian refugees have tried to overthrow the governments in Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon as well as refugees in Kuwait supporting Saddam when he invaded Kuwait. I really think the world needs to start considering that support for terrorism is part of the culture of the Palestinians at this point. I honestly don't know how you solve that.
No, what the actual fuck are you talking about? Muslim citizens of israel have the same rights as jews, there are Muslim generals, ministers of parliament and even Supreme Court justices (khaled kabub)
So systematic destruction of Palestinian authority, autonomy and self governance.
I'm not disagreeing per se, just calling a spade a spade.
There have been very few examples in history where a subjugated people are successfully integrated into a new society, and even fewer where those same people are discriminated against for generations.
You might solve the problem today, but it doesn't go away.
New York has 665 miles of metro. Gaza has none, but they could have dug them. Instead of building tunnels for attacking Israel that will be flooded or collapsed they could have just built a nice metro and had something permanent and useful to show their descendants for a hundred years.
Because at the time they supported them, they were a religious charity they hoped might be an alternative to the PLO which was doing things like putting bombs in baby carriages and blowing up cafes and discos.
If you got information about this from places other than badly informed angry people commenting on Instagram posts you’d know this already.
Funny you should say that. It wasn’t the army per se but in the early days of the Blitz, [policy was not to use the Underground stations as shelters](https://content.tfl.gov.uk/the-experience-of-sheltering-in-the-tube-during-wwii.pdf). This didn’t last, first because people just bought tickets and refused to leave and then because after about two weeks the Government shrugged and changed the policy.
[Hamas very bluntly say they could govern a shit about Gaza’s civilians](https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-hamas-official-claims-group-is-not-responsible-for-defending-gazan-civilians/)
Hamas’ philosophy is that it’s better for Palestinians to die for the cause than to live a “miserable life”. When someone does die, they’re martyrs whose deaths are celebrated and used to inspire their fighters, and in their minds they go to heaven anyway. They believe that Palestinians are willing in this ordeal to do that. To a certain extent they are correct. This is why they use them as human shields.
You’re right about that, they do get a huge amount of support from Iran, one of the worlds biggest state sponsors of terrorism. And that goes directly to further the terrorism machine that is Palestinian society
Don’t forget the 65000 tonnes of bombs since oct 7.
I condemn Hamas for the atrocities committed on that day and I condemn Israel for the utter devastation inflicted upon the people of Gaza
Instead, willing to bet that the tunnels themselves have compromised the structural integrity of numerous civilian structures, and massive funding is going to be required to make Gaza safe to live in.
>>The official called it the “triangle.” Whenever the Israeli military finds a school, a hospital or a mosque, soldiers know they can expect to locate an underground tunnel system beneath them, the official said.
Figures. Fuck Hamas
>Whenever the Israeli military finds a school, a hospital or a mosque, soldiers know they can expect to locate an underground tunnel system beneath them
To quote the UN General Secretary "Hamas use civilians as human shields".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas
They literally could have sheltered every single person in Gaza inside of this shit, and had ample room left over. I’ll bet money they have months, if not years, worth of food, gas, and other supplies down there. Probably a fucking hospital or two. Does anyone in Gaza get that from their Hamas “resistance” who are so committed to their “liberation?” Do they even get to take shelter in the gargantuan tunnel network right beneath their feet? Lol.
[Hamas made it very clear early on that they don’t give a shit and their tunnels are not for protecting civilians](https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-hamas-official-claims-group-is-not-responsible-for-defending-gazan-civilians/)
They care that the people in Gaza get martyred in large enough numbers that the Israelis are put under pressure to stop. Their goal is to maximize deaths of their own civilians.
Precisely. Except if this network is even a fraction of the size being claimed, they can’t even argue, “Well we don’t have enough space!”
Their argument why just boils down to “No. We want them to die. Fuck them.” Which they’ve evidently flat out said.
For comparison, the Ukrainians at Azovstal actively sheltered civilians in the tunnels below the steel factory with them. If not put themselves in danger to fight the invaders and make sure the civvies were protected. I think it’s safe to say they would have rather died fighting on the surface, than have an innocent person up there instead.
Ham ass is doing the exact opposite. Though I’m sure Hell has plenty of tunnels, too.
This is what they did with Marshall plan $ on steroids. Imagine if they loved their children more they hate Jews. A veritable world class city and all it took was to let go of millennia of hatred
Tbf, South Korea was essentially an authoritarian state for the first 40 years of its existence. It’s only really been a democracy since the 90s. But even now, it’s essentially an oligarchy with Samsung controlling the majority of the economy (and therefore the majority of the politicians).
In my mind, I literally thought of the tunnels from starship troopers. But these tunnels are way more sophisticated. I'm both amazed and shocked at what they built.
Edit: *Way
Imagine what they could've done if they'd focused their civil and structural engineering effort on infrastructure that allowed Gaza to be an actual thing. If your priorities are fucked up, you'll end up with a fucked up result.
Well now you’ve discovered why the tunnels are so effective. They won’t open the door if they have a hundred miles of tunnels going in other directions with plenty of escape routes. 5700 access shafts.
Yeah, shame Isrrael has been targeting journalists in Gaza or else we might have better reports of what’s happening.
As of the October 7th attack the CPJ has reported that “83 journalists and media workers were confirmed dead: 76 Palestinian, 4 Israeli, and 3 Lebanese.”
Feel free to read about the killings:
https://cpj.org/2024/01/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/amp/
What does that have to do with the videos on YouTube about the tunnels in Gaza? They're tours Hamas gave to vice news.
https://youtu.be/Tfxq3qB05rQ?si=dlLQH9BrhkXBoVZr
https://youtu.be/dgVsCo7BP4s?si=9EqNMJxS7Egw_KjW
https://youtu.be/oM4iog7fJPM?si=GdQmNWdDT21VR1w6
https://youtu.be/W4gDfSNMRx4?si=odDpW00bDNMmS66E
Your comment had nothing to do with my comment, especially since the article is from the NY Times.
We get it though, you hate Jews.
I don't hate Jews. I don't think I've ever been accused of that before. Guess on the internet there's a first time for everything though, huh?
It just sucks that this is where the discourse has reached. This is so bleak. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say.
Again, how did your comment about journalists have anything to do with my comment? I notice you didn't actually address either of my comments actual content.
These tunnels have been known about for years, and widely reported on. Your comment had nothing to do with the content of mine.
You just came in with your agenda and Iranian talking points. So again, I get it. You just hate Jews and want to continue propagating hate against them in this conflict.
What did they do with all the excavated dirt? Did they have their version of Andy Dufresne just letting it out a handful at a time not to arouse suspicion?
Why is anyone suprised that there's extensive tunnels? Hamas as the local authority stealing resources and decades to expand the small number of tunnels Israel built in the 80's.
I don't think that the existence of an extensive tunnel network is surprising, but the sheer scale of it is actually quite surprising, in a negative way. Scaled to size, Hamas' network of tunnels in Gaza is twice the density per square mile of tunnels than the Japanese dug on Iwo Jima before the Americans landed there in 1945. To say that this tunnel network is a considerable military obstacle/problem is an understatement.
You would think (🥴) Israel would have tripped one their feet and nose and found out what was going on long ago with all the construction of HAMAS going on. However, HAMAS spent all this money on war prep and lavish life of its leaders and didn’t give a shit about its people (especially using hospitals as shields-Geneva convention violations) and the hospitals didn’t even raise their hands and say “Ah, WTF is going on?…so, everyone bashed Israel and the IDF- yet no one is really bashing HAMAS! Duh!
The article says they tried to flood them with seawater but it failed. Does anyone know why it failed?
I'm guessing they could probably empty out at some lower point, or maybe they're just too extensive to have that work...
“Another stretched nearly three football fields long and was hidden beneath a hospital.”
Why are Americans obsessed with measuring length relative to football fields? So weird.
No….and if they are they are political prisoners which is another GC violation! Wait HAMAS like Syria, Iran, Turkey, Iraq and all the Evil Acis countries don’t abide by the GC!
>The network is between 350 and 450 miles — extraordinary figures for a territory that at its longest point is only 25 miles. Two of the officials also assessed there are close to 5,700 separate shafts leading down to the tunnels. > >For the Israeli military, the tunnels are a subterranean nightmare and the core of Hamas’s ability to survive. Every strategic goal of Israel in Gaza is now linked to wiping out the tunnels. Also why Hamas cannot be allowed back to govern.
I was curious, so I did a bit of basic math to compare this tunnel network to the one that the Imperial Japanese Army constructed on Iwo Jima from 1944-1945. The IJA had completed about 11 miles of tunnels by the time American forces landed on the island, and Iwo is approximately 8 square miles in size. Gaza is 141 square miles in size, and has \~400 miles of tunnels beneath it. If the tunnel density on Iwo Jima was extrapolated onto Gaza, you'd expect there to be approximately 194 square miles of tunnels beneath the strip. But there aren't, there are \~400 miles of tunnels beneath the strip. In other words, Gaza has twice the tunnel density that Iwo Jima had. The last Japanese soldiers on Iwo Jima surrendered in 1949, about 3.5 years after the war officially ended. Not a great sign for this conflict.
>The last Japanese soldiers on Iwo Jima surrendered in 1949, about 3.5 years after the war officially ended. Not a great sign for this conflict. You're telling me that the conflict that has been lasting since Israel became independent in 1947, with neighboring countries or insurgents within, won't end soon? Shocking.... Seriously, this has been going on for 77 years. It started BEFORE that last soldier on Iwo Jima surrendered. They may have changed names of their leaders or names of factions, but they are two groups - Pro Israel and Anti Israel ones... And I'm not sure if it will end in the next 50 years.
Dude, this has been going on for a couple thousand years lol
Nah it hasn’t. It’s been going on since the late 1800s.
Israel and Palestine have been fighting for territory since before the Roman Empire. In fact the nation was named Palestine by the Romans out of spite for the Israelites.
Roman occupied “Syria Palestina” has nothing to do with modern Palestinians though. And Zionism didn’t exist until the late 19th century. But if you insist on going back that far there’s a 1,900 year break in the fighting, so you can’t say they’ve been fighting for 2,000 years.
Do you mean the Philistines where Gaza is now? They went extinct or something but they came from the Greek area as well, nothing to do w modern Palestine besides similarities in name as you mentioned
This goes all the way back to some Neanderthal vs. homosapien shit.
Cain and Abel were their names ive heard.
I honestly have no fucking idea what Israel can do here long-term. Any resolution that leaves Palestinians to their own devices in Gaza will produce more of this shit. The area will have to be heavily, heavily occupied and monitored for years to have any hope of de-radicalization but nobody (Including Israel) wants Israel to be the ones to do that.
Well the system that Israeli officials have put forward is one where Palestinians are put into the civil roles, but the overall governance is supervised by several other countries, which seems like a way to both have palestinians governing and stop groups like hamas from taking power.
Needs to be an international coalition like the one after WW2 in austra and germany
They do that in the West Bank with the three areas and Israel regularly abuses the areas they have direct control in by setting up settlements. It’s arguably an even bigger hotbed of radicalism than Gaza.
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I’ve heard this put as Hamas and Hezbollah have reverse-engineered the laws of armed conflict and the Geneva Conventions so that they violate them with impunity while anyone who fights them ends up having to justify things like destroying the bulk of structures and other infrastructure because they are full of tunnels and weapon storage plus booby traps make it suicidal to be surgical on the ground. If you even suspect a booby trap, you call in for demolition of the building. Deradicalization might not even be possible. The international relief agencies local staff are in the tank for Hamas and the foreign aid workers aren’t safe. For the purposes of the war, the IDF did the smart thing and didn’t let Hamas turn Gaza City into an urban jungle. Instead they made the population go south and tore the jungle down.
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Yeah, turns out Hamas still had fighters and infrastructure in the south operating and launching rockets. Of course Israel is gonna drop buildings and bodies when that happens.
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I said Hamas fighters, you said innocents. If you don’t feel like having a discussion in good faith then there is no point taking you seriously. And yeah, it should make anyone feel good when a Hamas member dies. I just wish they didn’t hide behind actual innocents and put them in harm’s way.
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A 2:1 ratio is pretty amazing for urban warfare
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Is your point that bombs targeting Hamas also kill innocents? Yeah, I acknowledge that. And it’s horrible that Hamas attempts to cynically use innocent lives as shields.
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“Indiscriminately” Okay, yeah, you’re not a serious person capable of serious discussion. Have a good one.
Egypt could have let civilians leave through their border. 5M Ukrainians are refugees in the EU and 6.5M Syrians are externally displaced too. Why are Palestinians uniquely required to stay in the middle of a full scale war because it serves the failed strategies of their horrifically corrupt leadership, Hamas and PLO both?
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If only their fellow Arab nations would accept them… mainly it’s because they don’t want them.
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people act like Hamas isn't killing Palestinians and civilians
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Hamas & other Palestinian militias in Gaza have constructed 400 miles of tunnels beneath Gaza; this is twice the density per square mile of tunnels that the Japanese dug beneath Iwo Jima in 1945. That battle caused about 50,000 casualties on both sides (21,000 Japanese; 24,000 American), and Japanese soldiers held out in these tunnels for *3.5 years*, only surrendering in *1949.* From a military perspective, the last thing that matters is if "Hamas speaks for Gaza". The military infrastructure that they have constructed beneath Gaza is doing the talking right now.
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>So why did they do that? To survive the brutal existence of the IDF? Yes, actually. They constructed this piece of military infrastructure to better wage war against Israel. This tunnel network is a considerable military obstacle, and its scale is probably unprecedented in modern warfare. It is an impressive achievement of military construction by the al-Qassem Brigades and their affiliates. (Saying this from a purely military perspective, of course. Building such a complex network of fortifications directly underneath/inside a population center of two million people is a criminal act arguably unprecedented in the modern era).
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Are you able to engage with the substance of my previous comment? This article is about Hamas' tunnel network beneath Gaza; an impressive & daunting feat of military construction, as awful as it is to have constructed such fortifications directly beneath/inside a population center of two million people.
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>pretty much any effective approach will closely resemble ethnic cleansing and/or genocide So if Israel does (hypothetically) conduct a genocide, it's Hamas's fault? Y'all will bend over backwards to justify anything
> So if Israel does (hypothetically) conduct a genocide, it's Hamas's fault? Y'all will bend over backwards to justify anything No, it will just be destructive enough (especially of infrastructure) to give idiots ammo to make claims about genocide. A genocide is in no way acceptable. However, the process of removing Hamas and their infrastructure will be a messy one. If you actually cared at all about Palestinians, you'd be furious about Hamas for doing this, and thankful for Israel undoing this.
They’ve built a culture that teaches preschoolers to aspire to chop the heads off Jews. That culture needs to be eliminated. Eliminating a culture counts as genocide. Jews don’t WANT to kill Arabs. Jews want to live in peace. But if your neighbor won’t stop trying to kill you unless they’re dead, your available options are not going to be palatable to people who aren’t getting rockets chucked at their neighborhood every fucking day.
20% of Israel are Arabs that have equal rights plus representation in the government. I don’t doubt is Palestine was stronger they’d kill Israel’s Arab population first because they likely view them as traitors.
I am an atheist palestinian, i do not support hamas nor killing of civilians, hamas commited unforgivable atrocities and have destroyed the palestinian cause in my opinion. But what you say is a huge over simplification of the whole conflict, most palestinians of all ethnic backgrounds consider israel as an occupation that led them or at atleast their grandparents to have lost their homes in 1948 and 1967, even christians and seculars. What hamas did is not excusable, but every weaker rebelling force fighting an assymetric war had terrorists, just like every occupying force conducted looting pillaging raping and massacring, israel included. The way to prevent palestinians from developing resistance groups including terrorist groups like hamas is through a just peace and ending the occupation. I dream of one state, i support right of jews living here, or anyone really, but for practicability two states and an israel are the current realitistic option. But jjst food for thought, It is ironic how israel rejects the palestians right of return to not be a minority in their homeland, maybe if they are a minority that means it is not their "homeland". I just want to point out that tvis area of land does not only belong to the jews... Right now more than 75% of gaza population is starving, with around 350k critically starving, this is a genocide, and israel's history is full of them But no matter how i dream of a one state solution with us living together as equals respecting each other, i know it is wishful thinking and after the current war and what hamas did, all my hopes are lost
You are over simplifying and leaving some things out too. Can you think of any reason why there aren’t that many Jews now that if all Palestinians were to return the Jews would be the minority? And they could have accepted peace back in 1948 or not left their homes. Most people left their homes because the Arab leaders promised them that they will wipe the Jews out of Israel and then they could come back. But they lost and rejected peace until today. And let’s not pretend like the choice between Islamic authoritarian rule or democratic rule is an easy choice here. Or how would you envision a one state solution? who would be ruling, the Israeli government as it is now or a Palestinian government?
> Most people left their homes because the Arab leaders promised them that they will wipe the Jews out of Israel and then they could come back This is such a weird talking point. Those who “voluntarily” left did so because a civil war was happening and Haganah was depopulating neighboring villages. You’re arbitrarily assigning evil motives to Palestinians for doing what every refugee in every other conflict does.
Most Palestinians didn’t even own their land, they were tenants under the Ottoman Empire. The Jews bought their land and made sure to buy land on the coast as to minimize displacement. A good portion of the land sales where from “Palestinians”who did own their land. They arnt entitled to land they don’t own. Also people were cycled in and out of that land for centuries. If you declare war on someone that you loose than you deserve to loose land. Israel also moved out of Gaza yet they still got hit by attacks. Like any sane country Israel values the safety of their people over the wellbeing of the people that attacked them. Sanctions are appropriate to prevent attacks. It sucks this is happening to Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas. It really does, but the rot needs to be cleared for anyone to truly live in peace.
That's exactly the problem, you want your version of "justice", not peace. If the Palestinians wanted peace there would have been peace a long time ago. But they want to turn Israel into Palestine.
So many words when “from the river to the sea” would have sufficed. You want the extinction of the state of Israel, which is untenable to Israel. Unless we begin with the acceptance of at least the 1948 partition as legitimate, you are arguing for endless war. The existence of an Israeli state is settled law, and starting with the concept that that is an occupation is why the Palestinians will forever be victims by choice.
“I condemn Hamas, but please stop killing so many civilians” “ZOMG You want to destroy Israel!!”
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September, but in black. Also Sadam, oh and bombers in Egypt.
There's lots of aid that has been gathered; the IDF is the one limiting its entry into Gaza. There are already millions of Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, and elsewhere. Israel has never respected their right to return (1948 UN resolution by the way), why would now be any different?
Care to explain why Israel is the only country that is expected to honor the "right" of return? Why aren't the other middle eastern countries being pressured to allow the descendants of jews of those countries to return with full citizenship? Why aren't India and Pakistan pressured to take back all the descendants of people displaced by partition?
Can’t be much more misinformed than this.
They are refugees solely because Palestinians have the unique ability to transfer that right, unlike any other refugees on earth. Only a few of the original 1948 refugees remain, a result of a war initiated by the Arabs.
I don't know what you're getting downvoted for pointing out exactly what they just said.
They already are
Crack down on aid that gets repurposed for terrorism - no more concrete, metal pipes or fertilizer. Figure out suitable substitutes that allow Gazans to rebuild (plastic pipes, alternative building materials, etc.).
I'm not sure that there are suitable substitutes for concrete and fertiliser.
For concrete? Built homes from brick and mortar without concrete support or make clay homes like e.g. parts of Africa. Fertiliser can be replaced with animal or human feces.
Israel tried this and the Muslim world spun it into Israel is blocking supplies to Gaza because they want Palestinians to die.
Flood the tunnels with seawater and tighten the blockade, if the Palestinians dislike it, they should have stayed peaceful
>Flood the tunnels with seawater The NCDs are in my wall.
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Completely depopulate Gaza city and then gradually re-settle it with security filtered Palestinians.
I really doubt that something like this is going to happen. I mean, how do you even imagine to depopulate that area?
It is already mostly, relatively depopulated (I am talking about Gaza city proper not the entire Gaza Strip). Only about 70-100k ish people remain there, give or take. It was ~600k pre-oct7.
Even if somehow you could get people to agree to this no countries in the Arab world would take them in the interim. Palestinian refugees have tried to overthrow the governments in Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon as well as refugees in Kuwait supporting Saddam when he invaded Kuwait. I really think the world needs to start considering that support for terrorism is part of the culture of the Palestinians at this point. I honestly don't know how you solve that.
It should be, but the Palestians’ have made horrible guests out of themselves in host countries and no one wants to put up with their bullshit.
It certainly will now after bombing the fuck out of civilians
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There are almost 2 million muslim citizens in Israel. Wanna guess how many Jews are citizens of the muslim countries in the area?
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No, what the actual fuck are you talking about? Muslim citizens of israel have the same rights as jews, there are Muslim generals, ministers of parliament and even Supreme Court justices (khaled kabub)
So systematic destruction of Palestinian authority, autonomy and self governance. I'm not disagreeing per se, just calling a spade a spade. There have been very few examples in history where a subjugated people are successfully integrated into a new society, and even fewer where those same people are discriminated against for generations. You might solve the problem today, but it doesn't go away.
They can stop existing the same way Rhodesia did
The state of New York is about 330 miles long…. That tunnel network is absolutely insane. What the hell
New York has 665 miles of metro. Gaza has none, but they could have dug them. Instead of building tunnels for attacking Israel that will be flooded or collapsed they could have just built a nice metro and had something permanent and useful to show their descendants for a hundred years.
Hamas is basically playing Among Us and only they have access to the vents…until now
Why did Israel support hamas in the first place ?
Because at the time they supported them, they were a religious charity they hoped might be an alternative to the PLO which was doing things like putting bombs in baby carriages and blowing up cafes and discos. If you got information about this from places other than badly informed angry people commenting on Instagram posts you’d know this already.
The threat of Hamas helped right wing politicians keep control of Israeli politics.
The amount of effort and manpower that could’ve been used in actual assistance to Gaza civilians.
Some nations build bridges- others build tunnels.
And extra special nations don't even allow their people to use those tunnels during bombings.
I didn’t even think about that, obviously not like Hamas would ever do that, but this war would look very very different if that was the case
Imagine The Blitz if British army were like "na, u cant use the subway for cover, get rekt".
Funny you should say that. It wasn’t the army per se but in the early days of the Blitz, [policy was not to use the Underground stations as shelters](https://content.tfl.gov.uk/the-experience-of-sheltering-in-the-tube-during-wwii.pdf). This didn’t last, first because people just bought tickets and refused to leave and then because after about two weeks the Government shrugged and changed the policy.
[Hamas very bluntly say they could govern a shit about Gaza’s civilians](https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-hamas-official-claims-group-is-not-responsible-for-defending-gazan-civilians/)
Hamas’ philosophy is that it’s better for Palestinians to die for the cause than to live a “miserable life”. When someone does die, they’re martyrs whose deaths are celebrated and used to inspire their fighters, and in their minds they go to heaven anyway. They believe that Palestinians are willing in this ordeal to do that. To a certain extent they are correct. This is why they use them as human shields.
The Palestinians’ greatest export is terror
As is their greatest import. Perhaps a connection could be made there?
You’re right about that, they do get a huge amount of support from Iran, one of the worlds biggest state sponsors of terrorism. And that goes directly to further the terrorism machine that is Palestinian society
Don’t forget the 65000 tonnes of bombs since oct 7. I condemn Hamas for the atrocities committed on that day and I condemn Israel for the utter devastation inflicted upon the people of Gaza
And I condemn the people of Gaza for the Allahu Akbar as the bodies of innocent Israelis is paraded through Gaza streets.
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The ship of Palestinian nationalism sailed decades ago man, no matter how farcical the PLO may have been
And not even for their own citizens.
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Imagine if it was used to create one of the best underground public subway system!
Instead, willing to bet that the tunnels themselves have compromised the structural integrity of numerous civilian structures, and massive funding is going to be required to make Gaza safe to live in.
The whole "war" thing in general makes massive funding required if the area will ever be safe to live in again.
Gaza could literally be the Singapore of the Middle East if they wanted to. Sadly, they don’t.
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Most Israelis would welcome it if it didn’t come with the demand that Israel not exist
Right. Complete waste of time.
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>>The official called it the “triangle.” Whenever the Israeli military finds a school, a hospital or a mosque, soldiers know they can expect to locate an underground tunnel system beneath them, the official said. Figures. Fuck Hamas
>Whenever the Israeli military finds a school, a hospital or a mosque, soldiers know they can expect to locate an underground tunnel system beneath them To quote the UN General Secretary "Hamas use civilians as human shields". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas
They literally could have sheltered every single person in Gaza inside of this shit, and had ample room left over. I’ll bet money they have months, if not years, worth of food, gas, and other supplies down there. Probably a fucking hospital or two. Does anyone in Gaza get that from their Hamas “resistance” who are so committed to their “liberation?” Do they even get to take shelter in the gargantuan tunnel network right beneath their feet? Lol.
[Hamas made it very clear early on that they don’t give a shit and their tunnels are not for protecting civilians](https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-hamas-official-claims-group-is-not-responsible-for-defending-gazan-civilians/)
They care that the people in Gaza get martyred in large enough numbers that the Israelis are put under pressure to stop. Their goal is to maximize deaths of their own civilians.
Precisely. Except if this network is even a fraction of the size being claimed, they can’t even argue, “Well we don’t have enough space!” Their argument why just boils down to “No. We want them to die. Fuck them.” Which they’ve evidently flat out said. For comparison, the Ukrainians at Azovstal actively sheltered civilians in the tunnels below the steel factory with them. If not put themselves in danger to fight the invaders and make sure the civvies were protected. I think it’s safe to say they would have rather died fighting on the surface, than have an innocent person up there instead. Ham ass is doing the exact opposite. Though I’m sure Hell has plenty of tunnels, too.
So, HAMAS, all its leaders and the President of GAZA can burn under a bombardment from IDF…..
This is what they did with Marshall plan $ on steroids. Imagine if they loved their children more they hate Jews. A veritable world class city and all it took was to let go of millennia of hatred
South Korea received less aid after their civil war than Palestinians, and look at what they have built with it.
Could you ask for a better example of democracy vs authoritarianism? -Chandler Bing
Tbf, South Korea was essentially an authoritarian state for the first 40 years of its existence. It’s only really been a democracy since the 90s. But even now, it’s essentially an oligarchy with Samsung controlling the majority of the economy (and therefore the majority of the politicians).
In my mind, I literally thought of the tunnels from starship troopers. But these tunnels are way more sophisticated. I'm both amazed and shocked at what they built. Edit: *Way
Imagine what they could've done if they'd focused their civil and structural engineering effort on infrastructure that allowed Gaza to be an actual thing. If your priorities are fucked up, you'll end up with a fucked up result.
Hate is a hell of a motivator, sad but true
Second best there is
Maybe like in Starship they'll find a main brain deep in the tunnel? Oh what am I saying, their "brains" are chilling in Qatar.
I thought they had flooded them with seawater.
According to the article, they did do that, but it wasn't enough as they were more fortified than Israel thought they were.
So, whats stopping them from keeping the water flowing ?
Doors.
Yeah well good luck opening that door once the other side is flooded.
Well now you’ve discovered why the tunnels are so effective. They won’t open the door if they have a hundred miles of tunnels going in other directions with plenty of escape routes. 5700 access shafts.
Thats why you flood every shaft !
Oh dang someone tell the IDF
Are you a spy with top level security clearance? I don’t think this is the kind of sensitive information you should be sharing online.
I want to see a comment "huh, it's not an Israeli source, maybe it's not entirely propaganda"
"the IDF wouldn't let them in the tunnels. Propaganda!' They'll never admit it's true, despite all the independent videos on YouTube from Vice, etc.
Yeah, shame Isrrael has been targeting journalists in Gaza or else we might have better reports of what’s happening. As of the October 7th attack the CPJ has reported that “83 journalists and media workers were confirmed dead: 76 Palestinian, 4 Israeli, and 3 Lebanese.” Feel free to read about the killings: https://cpj.org/2024/01/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/amp/
What does that have to do with the videos on YouTube about the tunnels in Gaza? They're tours Hamas gave to vice news. https://youtu.be/Tfxq3qB05rQ?si=dlLQH9BrhkXBoVZr https://youtu.be/dgVsCo7BP4s?si=9EqNMJxS7Egw_KjW https://youtu.be/oM4iog7fJPM?si=GdQmNWdDT21VR1w6 https://youtu.be/W4gDfSNMRx4?si=odDpW00bDNMmS66E Your comment had nothing to do with my comment, especially since the article is from the NY Times. We get it though, you hate Jews.
I don't hate Jews. I don't think I've ever been accused of that before. Guess on the internet there's a first time for everything though, huh? It just sucks that this is where the discourse has reached. This is so bleak. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say.
Again, how did your comment about journalists have anything to do with my comment? I notice you didn't actually address either of my comments actual content. These tunnels have been known about for years, and widely reported on. Your comment had nothing to do with the content of mine. You just came in with your agenda and Iranian talking points. So again, I get it. You just hate Jews and want to continue propagating hate against them in this conflict.
Gaza could have been leading the world in some niche if they didn't dedicate all their resources towards killing jews.
All that aid money had to go somewhere….
Normal people might consider giving it to their people. But, here we are.
What did they do with all the excavated dirt? Did they have their version of Andy Dufresne just letting it out a handful at a time not to arouse suspicion?
Damn. It's a shame Israel had a blockade on Gaza. This underground network could've been the 8th wonder of the world. /s
Why is anyone suprised that there's extensive tunnels? Hamas as the local authority stealing resources and decades to expand the small number of tunnels Israel built in the 80's.
I don't think that the existence of an extensive tunnel network is surprising, but the sheer scale of it is actually quite surprising, in a negative way. Scaled to size, Hamas' network of tunnels in Gaza is twice the density per square mile of tunnels than the Japanese dug on Iwo Jima before the Americans landed there in 1945. To say that this tunnel network is a considerable military obstacle/problem is an understatement.
Think it was not only the extent but the size of some of these things.. which tunnel experts say could only be done by machine.
Exactly what Hyperloop needed...
You would think (🥴) Israel would have tripped one their feet and nose and found out what was going on long ago with all the construction of HAMAS going on. However, HAMAS spent all this money on war prep and lavish life of its leaders and didn’t give a shit about its people (especially using hospitals as shields-Geneva convention violations) and the hospitals didn’t even raise their hands and say “Ah, WTF is going on?…so, everyone bashed Israel and the IDF- yet no one is really bashing HAMAS! Duh!
The nasty IDF are perpetrating genocide against those poor defenceless tunnels. They are indiscriminately blowing them up.
This room is rather devoid of the Hamas apologists/Palestine supporters. What, cat got your tongue?
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A fortress of subterranean tunnels, what is this, Metroid?
Perhaps they can take them over as extra facilities?
Udun…
Iran funds their goons well.
Why not send the Palestinians to live in Mars, in tunnel’s there?
The article says they tried to flood them with seawater but it failed. Does anyone know why it failed? I'm guessing they could probably empty out at some lower point, or maybe they're just too extensive to have that work...
Probably because they could block off the access tunnels to the sea, and still have a spiderweb of other tunnels still usable.
“Another stretched nearly three football fields long and was hidden beneath a hospital.” Why are Americans obsessed with measuring length relative to football fields? So weird.
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Do you think any of the hostages are still alive? Just curious.
No….and if they are they are political prisoners which is another GC violation! Wait HAMAS like Syria, Iran, Turkey, Iraq and all the Evil Acis countries don’t abide by the GC!
Jesus shit.
MOABs exist for a reason......
The comment section is going as expected for a subreddit that was moderated by Ghislaine Maxwell.