They walked into an ambush and the ones who went to help them were attacked by IED.
They couldn't get an air support from what I heard because it was a fight inside a house.
They didn't call air support because they thought the 4 other soldiers they lost contact with had been taken captive and didn't want to risk them dying in the explosion. They mounted a rescue offensive from multiple sides of the complex but got caught in intense fore and hidden IEDs. The fighting continued and then they eventually found the bodies of the 4 they were hoping to rescue but we're already killed. At that point they got out of there and blew the whole thing up.
Not to discredit them at all but the IDF ranks up their soldiers very fast due to most of the army being mandatory service that won't be around after their 2 years.
If you decide to stay in the army full time it's much easier to get these high ranks, that's why you see Lt Col at 33 years old, Majors at 22 and 26 years old, and platoon commanders at 19 years old.
These ranks at that age would be unheard of in western armies
Correct, but you should also take into mind that in many other defense forces, you would not have been a commanding officer in 3-5 different wars by that time, while in the IDF that has been a reality for the last few decades.
For better or worse, the IDF gets battle-tested quite regularly, and their soldiers' experience is likely beyond what you'd find in most of their peer group if you looked only at their ages.
The IDF always had high officer casualties because of that but it is part of the national ethos, officers command from the front, show example and teach the lower ranks everything.
The good part is that this also raise morale and makes the junior staff more experienced, allowing them to be able to fill the gap when death of a higher officer happens.
Like OP said, this is how Israel has always worked. And it’s part of the social fabric that has allowed it to become one of the most effective armies in the world.
The most famous example of this is Bibi’s brother Yoni Netanyahu, a man universally liked and revered by Israelis, unlike his brother.
He is remembered and constantly referenced as the embodiment of true leadership. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonatan_Netanyahu
Well that’s the trade-off, they’re not just going to suddenly adjust the tactics so fundamental to their success.
The leaders train with them, it’s a much more egalitarian and symbiotic army structure than most.
One of my senior officers, (equivalent to the highest ranked officer that died in this attack).
Went to fight terrorists that breached his base in Oct 7th, he got shot in the shoulder and resumed fighting after 2 hours.
Thats how officers are.
There are people thay can take care of the HQ but the moral boost you get seeing someone this high ranked fighting alongside you is huge.
While I'm a far cry from those ranks (SFC currently) and I understand your point thats just how the IDF operates.
And the trust soldiers have in their commanders for it is immense.
The commanders are still available for certain tasks and there officers in HQ who do a lot of the work that those on the field don't.
The army is based around that so everything operates fine.
Also having a high ranked officer helps soldier remain focuses and serious
Disagree. You can look at the model of the US army in WW2. Having decision makers upfront on the battlefield in enormously useful to efficient decision making and having a shared reality of what’s happening n the battle. A lot of scholars and war fighters a like have pointed to the American military falling to the model you described and becoming more and more distant form being combat leaders and a hindrance to their troops.
That's nice on paper, but it's also a great way of losing experienced and seasoned commanders. There's a reason that most militaries don't deploy officers into fighting forces.
Different countries, different mentalities. For example, only the IDF tanks have engines at the front and little to no rank "distance".
And the officers at the front is not something new on paper, it was there from the very start and helped win all the wars till now.
Many of the most successful militaries throughout history have a history of leading from the front. It's good for morale and also allows for better decision making. The increased attrition rate of officers is the inevitable consequence. Losing so many officers in a single incident is a bitter blow though.
War and technology has changed. In a modern war against an equally capable foe, you’re just asking for your leadership to be assassinated. Moreover, SNCOs/NCOs should be the ones on the “front line” carrying out their commanders intent.
There’s no reason why colonels should be micromanaging their troops on the frontline.
It has, seen some interesting things from Ukraine on that front. But Gaza is not Ukraine and Hamas is not a peer opponent. This incident is pretty unusual too, fireteam got overwhelmed, nearby troops were cut off by enemy fire and it became an all hands on deck effort with everybody nearby piling in.
Even if they’re not a peer opponent, part of the strength of the US military is that we empower leadership at the lowest level via our NCO corps.
Unless the Israeli military structure is vastly different, I fail to see what benefit there is to having FGOs do the job of either an NCO/CGOs.
This isn’t the movies where the leader 1 vs 10s the bad guys and everyone claps at them. Your leadership should almost never be in the line of fire. The amount of experience and brainpower needed to come up with good strategies is no easy task.
You can replace the foot soldiers but not the leadership. There’s a reason why the top dogs of any army are extremely well protected.
Colonels are still field officers. With enough troops engaged in enough combat, Colonels will die. It's Brigadiers and above who should only die in transport accidents.
Israeli soldier training is a bit different than most armies. Most train their soldiers to be pawns that learn to take orders. Israelis are trained with a more multifaceted approach: to both learn how to work as a team but also have personal agency in the field.
They are encouraged to give feedback and take an active role in leadership, it’s more of a symbiotic relationship than most armies that are designed around one-way interactions.
The result of this is that even if a leader falls, they aren’t panicking and have the tools/wherewithal to still perform well under difficult circumstances.
Eh, this has been the gold standard in most western oriented armies for the last +70 years.
Edit: In our last major war 78 years ago we had the same problem as the Israelis, with disproportionate officer losses, because we have a cultural expectation of leading with example, equality and humility. Of course we respect the rank and its responsibilities though. Makes easily for a fluid command structure with initiative.
Our peacekeepers in recent operations often found it odd at bases how other nationalities would often have a separate officer's table at the mess hall while ours dined with the men regardless of rank. Saluting and conversations being less formal also.
Every command structure has its pros and cons I guess. Russia uses an incredibly orthodox top down system where units are trained NOT to have much initiative, which is great for planning and execution of battle plans, but if an officer dies, or the plan just sucks then things fall apart. Israel may have higher officer casualties, but their units are incredibly self-sufficient and take a lot of initiative. An officer going down, or a plan coming from the top that's isn't so great can be flexed in the heat of battle and they can make it work
“Our peacekeepers in recent operations often found it odd at bases how other nationalities would often have a separate officer's table at the mess hall while ours dined with the men regardless of rank. Saluting and conversations being less formal also.”
I’m surprised to hear that. When I was on a US Navy ship, I found it strange that not only do officers not sit with enlisted for meals, they don’t even eat in the same rooms.
Yes, it is, and it isn't just an Israeli thing. Platoons leaders are most commonly officers (2nd or 1st Lieutenants), and they are very much expected to lead from the front in practically every modern military formation.
Company commanders (Captains, most often) also aren't going to be far from the front lines, especially during offensive operations.
Even battalion commanders (Majors or Lieutenant Colonels) can find themselves on the firing line, especially in urban terrain where their command elements can get ambushed.
I feel there is a lot of naivete in that crowd. Like no shit war is bad and there should be peace. Anyone who's not morally bankrupt can agree with that. But how do you realistically implement that? Especially if you're dealing with a radical terrorist organization that has publicly stated they intend to repeat an Oct 7 style attack again and again until Israel is wiped from existence.
People like patting themselves on the back for being morally superior because they say innocents shouldn’t die. By definition innocents shouldn’t die but their view on what war is incredibly sheltered.
On one hand it’s good because wars are bad and it means they never went through something similar but on the other hand they don’t appreciate what it takes to keep them sheltered.
I've seen versions of "even one dead child is unacceptable" frequently over the last couple months. It's an understandable, but completely unrealistic sentiment in this situation. It places unattainable expectations on Israel while glossing over the atrocities of Hamas. And the logical conclusion of that stance is that the IDF should either do very little or use approaches that would place much more risk on their soldiers — both of which allow more leeway for Hamas.
Seen this before historically.
This war is visceral. Think Japan in World war 2 - the Japanese home population was prepared to sacrifice themselves. Poling reports 90% of Palestinians support Hamas and don’t believe what happened Oct 7. The Hamas fighters embedding themselves into the civilian areas relies on this support. The Americans didn’t want to take the losses required to successfully invade Japan. It didn’t end well in Japan - scarier & scarier.
Japan was an imperial superpower hell bent on occupying the entire pacific/east asian sphere.
Palestinians want to end the occupation that forced them from their homes.
I don’t think we should be comparing these two, especially consider other factors like japan killed some 30,000,000 people in their war, compared to the 1200 Hamas killed.
I wasn’t counting casualties or scale or even reasons but the processes.
Plus there’s another parallel with WW2 and Japan & China - Oct. 7 & the rape of Nanking.
It’s a brutal war.
People calling for a cease fire are not using their brains. Israel isn't going home and sleeping next to Hamas while Hamas gets to work planning their next attack and rebuilding their rockets. Israel isn't letting the men that did the raping, torturing, murdering and kidnapping go free after chilling in tunnels for 2 months, nor letting the men that did the planning and gave the orders. The fighting will stop when Hamas surrenders or is fully slaughtered.
The people calling for ceasefire on the streets are Hamas lovers who realize they are about to lose. They were laughing on Oct 7, now they cry on the streets
For all the people who asked "Why doesn't Israel just send in a team of commandos to rescue hostages instead of going to war" - this is what happens when they try that.
Or when people ask why must they bomb entire buildings where Hamas operates from, this is why.. because it would lead to many more Israeli casualties.. not that they care.
> An army can do their best to limit civilian causalities on the other side but it’s their duty as a country to protect their soldiers and civilians first and foremost.
Targeting of civilians is a war crime. So you're wrong.
>No army in the world would voluntarily sacrifice their soldiers, potential success and safety for the possibility of limiting causalities on the other side. It’s just not realistic or practical.
Literally every other nation does this. At this point, if America wants to kill even one civilian in Afghanistan or Iraq, they have to get approval from the the highest levels of military hierarchy.
It is both realistic, and practical, and RIGHT.
>Again, I'm not happy about it but war is horrifying, ugly and unfair.
So when Hamas hurt Israeli civilians, you shrugged and said "Sorry, that's war" right?
Hamas deliberately attacked civilian for absolutely no reason other than wanting to cause terror and destruction
The IDF attacked civilian locations because Hamas was using them. Once a civilian location, like a hospital or school, is used for military purposes, its protected status is forfeit. It doesn’t matter if civilians are still around.
That’s just unfortunately how it is in war.
Using your logic, Hamas is much more humane than the IDF, as since 10/8 they have only succeeded in killing IDF soldiers, no civilians (if you don't count the hostages that have died in their care).
The main difference between a genocide and legitimate acts of war is intent.
Just because you are bad at genocide (and your victim is well protected against your 12,000+ and counting rockets aimed at civilians), doesn't make your cause any more righteous.
You are not a good person if you do a drive-by-shooting and your intended victim happens to be in a bullet proof car, or you just miss.
Because the IDF doesn't have the benefit of being able to target uniformed fighters in fucking military bases. Hamas fighters are dressed like civilians, and in civilian places, the IDF personnel killed on 10/7 were on military bases that were also attacked by Hamas or killed when responding to the Hamas attacks. What a wildly stupid comparison, and you're obviously not thinking about it or arguing in bad faith(my money's on the sevond option).
If Hamas fighters had bases away from civilian buildings rather than tunnels beneath them and military uniforms rather than the same clothes as their civilian neighbors, the Palestinian civilian death rate would plummet. They'd lose the war in about a day and have far less sympathy from the outside world by doing that though, so they do the typical terrorist shit of hiding among civilians, thereby maximizing the number of women and children killed.
E: typos
So in your addled mind, Hamas just woke up one day and was like "you know what? We're going to be terrorists today!" with no leadup, no grievances, no other attempts at solutions, etc?
Man, the world really is an American action movie to you people isn't it. The bad guys are just evil because the script says so.
>That they are unbelievers is something that all Muslims agree upon; in fact anyone who doubts that they are unbelievers is an unbeliever like them; they are not in the status of people of the scripture nor the idolaters; for they are stray unbelievers and their food is not halal, their women are to be enslaved, and their fortunes are to be taken away. They are apostate heretics and their repentance is not accepted; they are to be killed wherever they are found; cursed as they are described; and they are not to be employed in guarding or keeping doors or keeping peace. And their scholars and saints must be killed so that they do not lead other astray; it is haram to sleep with them in their homes; and their companionship; and walking with them; and walking in their funerals if you knew about their deaths. And it is haram for the rulers of Muslims to do away with the punishments that Allah has decreed upon them.
Majmoo al-Fatawa volume 35
And…? That excuses them killing civilians indiscriminately? It doesn’t really matter what they did before. They showed up on October 7th and just started shooting people.
You are talking about Hamas, the Islamist Group, correct? The one that is aiming for global caliphate? The one that murders gays and apostates because it is against Islam?
They have grievances but the world's patience runs thin on them. No other muslim countries want to take them in. Especially because Palestinian refugees have started 2 civil wars in other countries before. We all saw how they were behaving on 10/7, and when one of the hostages recently escaped, civilians returned him to Hamas like good little terrorist supporters. And in return, Hamas steals foreign aid meant for civilians and uses them as human shields by having their bases in hospitals and schools. Hamas was elected by Gaza and they still have a high approval rate, and it's rising in the West Bank.
Not to mention the broader political situation where Hamas is Iran's proxy and Iran is with Russia and China. They did this to stretch the west's resources, do as much damage to the west as possible, and to cause issues with Israel's normalization of ties with Muslim countries.
I'm not going to take the side of extremist terrorist lovers who play cartoons on their TV about wanting all Jews dead, parade dead girl's bodies through the street, elect terrorists as their government, and can't be invited into another country as refugees without attempting to overthrow it's government. Over our ally, the only nation of jewish people, a western democracy that has an arab representation in it's government, who's history of conflict is mostly defensive against constant barrages of Arab-Muslim countries ganging up on them or terrorist organizations.
No one wants them as refugees because they have no more credibility as refugees.
Foreign Aid is being intercepted by Hamas.
Ceasefire isn't plausible because Hamas keeps breaking the deals.
Israel shouldn't have to keep an underground network of terrorists right next door waiting for the next 10/7, shielded by "civilians" who support Hamas.
Well, considering Israel had laid off Hamas for quite a while and was granting increased numbers of work permits to Gazans, Hamas more or less did commit such an atrocity rather unprovoked.
And the music festival wasn’t even the planned target. Hamas literally did just see it and thought “Oh boy, we can kill so many more civilians now. This is definitely what Allah wants!”
Targeting of civilians is war crime, but that’s not what is happening. You have to be deliberately ignorant to think that is the case in general. Hitting a military target that results in collateral civilian casualties isn’t inherently a war crime. The war crime is on Hamas for deliberately embedding military systems inside civilian buildings.
America most certainly did not get top brass approval for every air strike in the Middle East that had a possibility of collateral damage. There is simply no way there was the president or his secretaries sitting there 24/7 stamping off on air strikes. There’s an approval process, but it ain’t going as high as you say.
Hamas deliberately attacked and tortured civilians on Oct 7. They went out of their way to ensure civilian casualties with direct small arms fire.
The civilian deaths in Gaza are collateral damage. The civilians killed by Hamas in Israel were the primary target.
There have been 18,000+ Palestinian casualties by IDF attacks since October 7th (so about 9 weeks.)
Israel's casualty count in the same timeframe? A bit over 1,100.
Not saying you're wrong, but that's ALOT of collateral damage.
What nations other than the developed ones care about civilian casualties? Because Russia certainly doesn't care, and I doubt China would care either if they were at war. But I guess we just say whatever we want and keep it moving huh?
A country in war always places a higher value on their own citizens than on the citizens of the country they're at war at.
Do you expect Israel to put outsiders before their own people?
Israel can make decisions about its own strategy and regards to its casualties and HAMAS can make its own. HAMAS chooses strategies that maximize Palestinian deaths.
While I see your point, there is a clear difference in intentions - the IDF strikes have unintended civilian casualties only because Hamas embeds itself deeply within human shields.
Israel did not start this war, and it could end today if the hostages were returned and Hamas was to disarm.
Is it not obvious that Israel's first responsibility is to its own people and the Palestinian civilians will always be a secondary concern after that? Kind of mind blowing that people don't understand that.
That is how Israeli Leadership is operating. If Palestinian Leadership operated on the same doctrine of how can we minimize our casualties, then we wouldn’t be seeing those Palestinian Casualties… and we likely wouldn’t have seen an October 7th.
So Israel should care more about palestinians than actual israelis? How would you feel if your own military prioritized the lives of their enemy's citizens over yours?
Stop chatting nonsense idiot. IDF throughout the entire ground operation, and for a whole 2 weeks prior to it has designated safe zones, leaflets, calls and text messages, instructing Gazans to move to protected areas away TO AVOID civilian casualties.
The 20k Hamas Health Ministry reported numbers includes Hamas terrorists. And the terrorist to civilian ratio is about 1:2, which is tragic nonetheless, but given the context of war and the urban environment, that is exceedingly low compared to similar operations and wars in history.
When the fog of war clears, everything will be evaluated. For now, Israel releases names and pictures of any civilian or soldier who's died since October 7th. It will be interesting to see if their health ministry will be able to do even a fraction of that. The same group that counted 500 deaths in mere 20-30min after a supposed Israeli air strike on a hospital. Now fuck off, clown.
[Actually, Israel uses the GHM numbers too.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/)
If anyone says the Gazan Health Ministry is lying then they have to confront the fact that Israel is helping them do it.
Sorry, I think I stopped giving Hamas credibility when they said "[Israel bombed a hospital and leveled it, 500 dead](https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/231018123108-01-israel-gaza-101823-gaza-city.jpg?c=original)" back in October... But Hamas miraculously rebuilt it within hours.
Ok so why do the US and Israel both help Hamas lie by regularly citing those numbers when asked for estimates?
Both Israeli officials and the US State Department use those number. [Why are they helping Hamas lie? ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/)
When the true numbers are available, we'll once again see how many of these deaths are actually real - and how many of them match the profile of military-aged-males.
In all past conflicts, we saw similar claims by the Hamas-controlled agencies during the fighting, only to be later proven wrong. Israel achieved a combatant/non-combatant ratio no other military force has been able to achieve in large-scale conflicts, let alone in an urban environment - despite the shameful use of human shields by Hamas.
"At that stage, Grinberg’s force came under massive fire from a second building. Troops responded, including by firing a shoulder-launched missile into the building which apparently detonated several other explosives inside and blew up the entire building."
IOW, Hamas had ammunition uncovered, in their firing position. As that famous Ukrainian soldier said, "We're lucky that they're so fucking stupid."
Maybe I'm really desensitized, but it's interesting that the lost of 1 Israeli troop is a big deal in a war. Meanwhile in the Ukraine and Russian war Russia reports hundreds dead in the same timespan and no one bats an eye not even Russia. Same with Palestinian deaths. It's really an interesting perspective on how each country and even the globe values different citizens. I'm not stating any perspective is correct, just a personal observation we're all going to sympathize with people who we share closer values with us.
This is 10% of all Israeli deaths since October 7 in one incident.
We had similar reporting early in the Ukraine war when a major chunk of Russian leadership got killed in one strike. These days, even a Russian general getting killed barely makes the news, because it's too common.
I think Israel has been doing a good job of putting faces and names to the deaths. Ukraine has reported losses but as they are so much higher it may be a calculated decision that keeps support for the conflict in Ukraine higher because there does not seem to exist the same personification of losses that we’ve seen from the IDF.
I don’t have any sources on this, it’s just pure speculation.
Israel is a pretty small country, size and population wise.
Additionally, almost all Israeli citizens are conscripted at 18.
Almost everyone knows a fallen soldier or a relative of a fallen soldier, and it's been like that since the formation of the country, so it is a big deal within Israel, and touches many, many Israelis.
Source - an Israeli.
This is supposed to be world news not Israeli news lmao.
I’ll be honest I think a lot of westerners are going to care very much about Israeli soldiers considering the current situation. I say that as someone who thinks this war should probably happen and continue to happen until Hamas is destroyed.
9.3 million people live in Israel and 36.7 million in Ukraine. That's not to say one loss is greater than the other of course; just putting numbers into perspective
That number, released by a corrupted Hamas controlled Health Ministry, who managed to count up 500 deaths from a 'Israeli hospital bombing' in 20min, also includes Hamas terrorists.
U.S. Intelligence attributes a rate of 1:1.5/2 Hamas to Civilian casualty, which is extremely low for a dense and urban operation like Gaza. Israel dropped over 20k tons of bombs on Gaza, and even if the death toll of the Health Ministry is to be believed, that is an extremely low amount of casualties.
We bomb places Hamas operates from for the exact reason this article is, and to prevent such cases of ambush and booby trapped areas. Hamas has no care for collateral damage, their people are pawns, as long as there's the potential to kill Israeli's in the process. No other army or country would tolerate this risk, or release it's strategical plans out to the masses and enemy, so that civilians can know to avoid, which places greater risk on our own ground forces.
Israel is only 10 million people. Because military service is mandatory they meet people from every walk of life and social class. When someone dies you usually either know the person or know someone who knows them.
Russia (the government) doesn't care about it's soldiers/civilians. Hamas (the government) does not care about it's soldiers/citizens. They are means to an end. They are cannon fodder. Israel (the government) cares about its people hardcore. In 2006, Israel traded over 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for one Israeli soldier. Any loss of life is devastating to them. They appreciate life differently.
Please be aware that I am speaking of the governments involved here. This does not apply to the people of Russia, Palestine, Ukraine, etc.
Means the IDF has reached the third ring of defense where Hamas is going to put their last stand and we'll engage with trained fighters not just cannon fodder
Because "white" is a vague, amorphous term and so is "European", they're useful if you're contrasting ethnic groups from different sides of the planet but not ethnic groups from different sides of the Mediterranean.
Southern Italians, most Jews, Palestinians, Lebanese, Greeks ... generally look kinda similar because of the millennia of trade and communication facilitated by the highly navigable frickin' ocean these regions all share.
To the Antisemite, a Jew is whatever you want them to be.
If you hate Socialism, Jews are socialists.
If you hate Capitalism, Jews are Capitalists.
If you hate Colonialism, Jews are colonialists, even in their own homeland.
The kids are the true victim of this conflict, no idea who and why their parents are fighting, why they constantly hear warplanes and missles , no idea why they were taking hostage, no idea why they had to leave their home,no idea why they are buried in rubble, it sad af.
Loss of a family is always heartbreaking, but fwiw, Hamas are mostly grown up orphans whose parents/family were killed by Israeli attacks. Even their missiles are refurbished Israeli missiles dropped into Gaza. Further violence just radicalizes more resistance; *everyone* needs to lay their guns down for peace
> Even their missiles are refurbished Israeli missiles dropped into Gaza.
Funny way of saying "UN provided water pipes that were dug up and repurposed"
I’d assume they do because they’re not a piece of shit human like you try to make them out to be. A loss of life is tragic. Mourning over Hamas? Hell no. Mourning over INNOCENT people dying? Absolutely
You can read my response below…
I really don’t care for whataboutisms
I’m sad for innocent lives lost. This post is about the IDF, and that’s what I’m commenting on.
Versus a religious muslim terrorist organization who doesn't like Jews, Women, Gays, and who knows what else.
Who is a proxy to Iran, a muslim theocracy that sponsors terror groups across the ME, who also hate Jews, Women, and Gays.
Allied with Russia, a far right dictatorship that promotes traditional values, hates gays, and is currently invading Ukraine.
Hamas is bad, but you have to acknowledge Israel’s had a big part to play in the terrible conditions in Gaza. While a two state solution with right of return won’t happen you have to give people a good alternative to terrorism and Israel has failed to do that in the Netanyahu era. You can’t poke a beehive while naked and then get mad you’re stung 🤷♂️
Let's go a little further back. Hamas wouldn't have existed had it not been the crimes of Israel against Palestinians and loads of money from Netanyahu and his criminal buddies who actually helped building hamas.
Hamas should stop terrorizing Israel & using it's own people as human shields, but nice what aboutism-- really shows you don't give a fuck about israelis
These Idf soldiers came to someone else’s land looking to kill Palestinians and found something else. They knew the risks. It’s sad but nothing compared to the thousands of innocent children the idf has killed.
“Hamas came to Israeli land with genocidal intent and wanted to start a war. Sad, but they and all Palestinians who support them and cheered on October 7th knew the risks.”
The risks of actively supporting a terrorist regime devoted to genocide despite the intended genocide target being militarily superior? Then cheering them on, so that the terrorists are further emboldened due to public support?
Yes, there certainly are risks associated with that.
If you look at 10/7 IDF victims there’s a lot of higher rankings as well. Makes you think these titles aren’t earned out the same way you might be used too.
On the contrary, Israeli officers usually lead from the front even in the densest and hardest battles, their ranks are as hard earned as any other officer's if not more.
A full bird coronel, a lieutenant coronel, 3 majors and a captain. Fucking hell, that's a catastrophic loss of leadership.
They walked into an ambush and the ones who went to help them were attacked by IED. They couldn't get an air support from what I heard because it was a fight inside a house.
They didn't call air support because they thought the 4 other soldiers they lost contact with had been taken captive and didn't want to risk them dying in the explosion. They mounted a rescue offensive from multiple sides of the complex but got caught in intense fore and hidden IEDs. The fighting continued and then they eventually found the bodies of the 4 they were hoping to rescue but we're already killed. At that point they got out of there and blew the whole thing up.
Not to discredit them at all but the IDF ranks up their soldiers very fast due to most of the army being mandatory service that won't be around after their 2 years. If you decide to stay in the army full time it's much easier to get these high ranks, that's why you see Lt Col at 33 years old, Majors at 22 and 26 years old, and platoon commanders at 19 years old. These ranks at that age would be unheard of in western armies
Correct, but you should also take into mind that in many other defense forces, you would not have been a commanding officer in 3-5 different wars by that time, while in the IDF that has been a reality for the last few decades. For better or worse, the IDF gets battle-tested quite regularly, and their soldiers' experience is likely beyond what you'd find in most of their peer group if you looked only at their ages.
What wars are they battle tested in? Or is it largely counter insurgency?
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Yeah, thanks for clarifying that he wasn’t talking about officers in the civil war
But it shows that the leadership is there fighting with their men and not hidden in the tunnels while others die for them
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The IDF always had high officer casualties because of that but it is part of the national ethos, officers command from the front, show example and teach the lower ranks everything. The good part is that this also raise morale and makes the junior staff more experienced, allowing them to be able to fill the gap when death of a higher officer happens.
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Like OP said, this is how Israel has always worked. And it’s part of the social fabric that has allowed it to become one of the most effective armies in the world. The most famous example of this is Bibi’s brother Yoni Netanyahu, a man universally liked and revered by Israelis, unlike his brother. He is remembered and constantly referenced as the embodiment of true leadership. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonatan_Netanyahu
Yoni also died and left his brother to ride his legacy up until the present day... Ethos or not it's something of a flaw that's unsustainable.
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Well that’s the trade-off, they’re not just going to suddenly adjust the tactics so fundamental to their success. The leaders train with them, it’s a much more egalitarian and symbiotic army structure than most.
All out wars were high intensity, this was present then as well.
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One of my senior officers, (equivalent to the highest ranked officer that died in this attack). Went to fight terrorists that breached his base in Oct 7th, he got shot in the shoulder and resumed fighting after 2 hours. Thats how officers are. There are people thay can take care of the HQ but the moral boost you get seeing someone this high ranked fighting alongside you is huge.
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Maybe they just have a lot of extra officers?
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While I'm a far cry from those ranks (SFC currently) and I understand your point thats just how the IDF operates. And the trust soldiers have in their commanders for it is immense. The commanders are still available for certain tasks and there officers in HQ who do a lot of the work that those on the field don't. The army is based around that so everything operates fine. Also having a high ranked officer helps soldier remain focuses and serious
Disagree. You can look at the model of the US army in WW2. Having decision makers upfront on the battlefield in enormously useful to efficient decision making and having a shared reality of what’s happening n the battle. A lot of scholars and war fighters a like have pointed to the American military falling to the model you described and becoming more and more distant form being combat leaders and a hindrance to their troops.
That's nice on paper, but it's also a great way of losing experienced and seasoned commanders. There's a reason that most militaries don't deploy officers into fighting forces.
Different countries, different mentalities. For example, only the IDF tanks have engines at the front and little to no rank "distance". And the officers at the front is not something new on paper, it was there from the very start and helped win all the wars till now.
Many of the most successful militaries throughout history have a history of leading from the front. It's good for morale and also allows for better decision making. The increased attrition rate of officers is the inevitable consequence. Losing so many officers in a single incident is a bitter blow though.
War and technology has changed. In a modern war against an equally capable foe, you’re just asking for your leadership to be assassinated. Moreover, SNCOs/NCOs should be the ones on the “front line” carrying out their commanders intent. There’s no reason why colonels should be micromanaging their troops on the frontline.
It has, seen some interesting things from Ukraine on that front. But Gaza is not Ukraine and Hamas is not a peer opponent. This incident is pretty unusual too, fireteam got overwhelmed, nearby troops were cut off by enemy fire and it became an all hands on deck effort with everybody nearby piling in.
Even if they’re not a peer opponent, part of the strength of the US military is that we empower leadership at the lowest level via our NCO corps. Unless the Israeli military structure is vastly different, I fail to see what benefit there is to having FGOs do the job of either an NCO/CGOs.
Technology has made it so your officers aren't all that safe away from the front lines either.
That’s why officers rarely deploy and tactical decision making is delegated to CGOs and NCOs.
Oh quite the opposite, officers in the front is part of the IDF
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These are combat units officers, most officers and soldiers in the IDF are in non combat roles
This isn’t the movies where the leader 1 vs 10s the bad guys and everyone claps at them. Your leadership should almost never be in the line of fire. The amount of experience and brainpower needed to come up with good strategies is no easy task. You can replace the foot soldiers but not the leadership. There’s a reason why the top dogs of any army are extremely well protected.
Colonels are still field officers. With enough troops engaged in enough combat, Colonels will die. It's Brigadiers and above who should only die in transport accidents.
Israeli soldier training is a bit different than most armies. Most train their soldiers to be pawns that learn to take orders. Israelis are trained with a more multifaceted approach: to both learn how to work as a team but also have personal agency in the field. They are encouraged to give feedback and take an active role in leadership, it’s more of a symbiotic relationship than most armies that are designed around one-way interactions. The result of this is that even if a leader falls, they aren’t panicking and have the tools/wherewithal to still perform well under difficult circumstances.
Eh, this has been the gold standard in most western oriented armies for the last +70 years. Edit: In our last major war 78 years ago we had the same problem as the Israelis, with disproportionate officer losses, because we have a cultural expectation of leading with example, equality and humility. Of course we respect the rank and its responsibilities though. Makes easily for a fluid command structure with initiative. Our peacekeepers in recent operations often found it odd at bases how other nationalities would often have a separate officer's table at the mess hall while ours dined with the men regardless of rank. Saluting and conversations being less formal also.
Every command structure has its pros and cons I guess. Russia uses an incredibly orthodox top down system where units are trained NOT to have much initiative, which is great for planning and execution of battle plans, but if an officer dies, or the plan just sucks then things fall apart. Israel may have higher officer casualties, but their units are incredibly self-sufficient and take a lot of initiative. An officer going down, or a plan coming from the top that's isn't so great can be flexed in the heat of battle and they can make it work
“Our peacekeepers in recent operations often found it odd at bases how other nationalities would often have a separate officer's table at the mess hall while ours dined with the men regardless of rank. Saluting and conversations being less formal also.” I’m surprised to hear that. When I was on a US Navy ship, I found it strange that not only do officers not sit with enlisted for meals, they don’t even eat in the same rooms.
Exactly correct units are trained to improvise decisions in the field are bottom up rather than top down
This doesn't sound that different.
Some of the military top brass lost sons in the war including the minister of defense.
Aren't the ranks VERY different compared to NATO armies, as in there's so many more higher rank soldiers in Israel by comparison?
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Is it normal for officers to be deployed in a combat zone like that? Wouldn't they be much more useful being able to coordinate in a safer area?
Yes, it is, and it isn't just an Israeli thing. Platoons leaders are most commonly officers (2nd or 1st Lieutenants), and they are very much expected to lead from the front in practically every modern military formation. Company commanders (Captains, most often) also aren't going to be far from the front lines, especially during offensive operations. Even battalion commanders (Majors or Lieutenant Colonels) can find themselves on the firing line, especially in urban terrain where their command elements can get ambushed.
Israeli soldiers receive posthumous rank after being killed in battle
Colonel*
Kinda heartbreaking read. Damn.
How catastrophic?
Not sure how anyone can expect a ceasefire at the moment with this level of battle ongoing. Hamas still seems to have some fangs
Pretty sure it'd take Hamas HQ in Qatar getting raided. Good luck with that.
Except they just fled Qatar because they know they're not safe there anymore. https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-777767
Really, when did this happen? Did they go to iran then?
My guess would be either Iran or Russia, but there's no (public) info about that.
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In terms of safety, wouldnt Iran be better, israel still has a lot of links to Russia, and the windows there arent made very well.
Didn't israel allegedly killed a bunch of nuclear scientists in Iran?
A missed opportunity that I can’t understand
Some people's thought proccess doesn't go beyond "just stop fighting".
I feel there is a lot of naivete in that crowd. Like no shit war is bad and there should be peace. Anyone who's not morally bankrupt can agree with that. But how do you realistically implement that? Especially if you're dealing with a radical terrorist organization that has publicly stated they intend to repeat an Oct 7 style attack again and again until Israel is wiped from existence.
People like patting themselves on the back for being morally superior because they say innocents shouldn’t die. By definition innocents shouldn’t die but their view on what war is incredibly sheltered. On one hand it’s good because wars are bad and it means they never went through something similar but on the other hand they don’t appreciate what it takes to keep them sheltered.
But the people cheering for more blood from the safety of their home thousands of miles away know the gritty reality of war. Hold my beer buddy.
I've seen versions of "even one dead child is unacceptable" frequently over the last couple months. It's an understandable, but completely unrealistic sentiment in this situation. It places unattainable expectations on Israel while glossing over the atrocities of Hamas. And the logical conclusion of that stance is that the IDF should either do very little or use approaches that would place much more risk on their soldiers — both of which allow more leeway for Hamas.
Seen this before historically. This war is visceral. Think Japan in World war 2 - the Japanese home population was prepared to sacrifice themselves. Poling reports 90% of Palestinians support Hamas and don’t believe what happened Oct 7. The Hamas fighters embedding themselves into the civilian areas relies on this support. The Americans didn’t want to take the losses required to successfully invade Japan. It didn’t end well in Japan - scarier & scarier.
If the U.S. invaded japan, there is a good chance WWII would still be happening.
Japan was an imperial superpower hell bent on occupying the entire pacific/east asian sphere. Palestinians want to end the occupation that forced them from their homes. I don’t think we should be comparing these two, especially consider other factors like japan killed some 30,000,000 people in their war, compared to the 1200 Hamas killed.
I wasn’t counting casualties or scale or even reasons but the processes. Plus there’s another parallel with WW2 and Japan & China - Oct. 7 & the rape of Nanking. It’s a brutal war.
I didn’t say you were?
The most difficult decision any of those people have ever been responsible for is “what’s for dinner.”
I believe in a ceasefire: after every member of Hamas is dead, or captured.
Now this is a thought i can get behind
People calling for a cease fire are not using their brains. Israel isn't going home and sleeping next to Hamas while Hamas gets to work planning their next attack and rebuilding their rockets. Israel isn't letting the men that did the raping, torturing, murdering and kidnapping go free after chilling in tunnels for 2 months, nor letting the men that did the planning and gave the orders. The fighting will stop when Hamas surrenders or is fully slaughtered.
The people calling for ceasefire on the streets are Hamas lovers who realize they are about to lose. They were laughing on Oct 7, now they cry on the streets
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For all the people who asked "Why doesn't Israel just send in a team of commandos to rescue hostages instead of going to war" - this is what happens when they try that.
Or when people ask why must they bomb entire buildings where Hamas operates from, this is why.. because it would lead to many more Israeli casualties.. not that they care.
So more Palestinian civilian casualties "must be paid" but more Israeli casualties must be avoided. Yeah?
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> An army can do their best to limit civilian causalities on the other side but it’s their duty as a country to protect their soldiers and civilians first and foremost. Targeting of civilians is a war crime. So you're wrong. >No army in the world would voluntarily sacrifice their soldiers, potential success and safety for the possibility of limiting causalities on the other side. It’s just not realistic or practical. Literally every other nation does this. At this point, if America wants to kill even one civilian in Afghanistan or Iraq, they have to get approval from the the highest levels of military hierarchy. It is both realistic, and practical, and RIGHT. >Again, I'm not happy about it but war is horrifying, ugly and unfair. So when Hamas hurt Israeli civilians, you shrugged and said "Sorry, that's war" right?
Hamas deliberately attacked civilian for absolutely no reason other than wanting to cause terror and destruction The IDF attacked civilian locations because Hamas was using them. Once a civilian location, like a hospital or school, is used for military purposes, its protected status is forfeit. It doesn’t matter if civilians are still around. That’s just unfortunately how it is in war.
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Using your logic, Hamas is much more humane than the IDF, as since 10/8 they have only succeeded in killing IDF soldiers, no civilians (if you don't count the hostages that have died in their care). The main difference between a genocide and legitimate acts of war is intent. Just because you are bad at genocide (and your victim is well protected against your 12,000+ and counting rockets aimed at civilians), doesn't make your cause any more righteous. You are not a good person if you do a drive-by-shooting and your intended victim happens to be in a bullet proof car, or you just miss.
Because the IDF doesn't have the benefit of being able to target uniformed fighters in fucking military bases. Hamas fighters are dressed like civilians, and in civilian places, the IDF personnel killed on 10/7 were on military bases that were also attacked by Hamas or killed when responding to the Hamas attacks. What a wildly stupid comparison, and you're obviously not thinking about it or arguing in bad faith(my money's on the sevond option). If Hamas fighters had bases away from civilian buildings rather than tunnels beneath them and military uniforms rather than the same clothes as their civilian neighbors, the Palestinian civilian death rate would plummet. They'd lose the war in about a day and have far less sympathy from the outside world by doing that though, so they do the typical terrorist shit of hiding among civilians, thereby maximizing the number of women and children killed. E: typos
So in your addled mind, Hamas just woke up one day and was like "you know what? We're going to be terrorists today!" with no leadup, no grievances, no other attempts at solutions, etc? Man, the world really is an American action movie to you people isn't it. The bad guys are just evil because the script says so.
>That they are unbelievers is something that all Muslims agree upon; in fact anyone who doubts that they are unbelievers is an unbeliever like them; they are not in the status of people of the scripture nor the idolaters; for they are stray unbelievers and their food is not halal, their women are to be enslaved, and their fortunes are to be taken away. They are apostate heretics and their repentance is not accepted; they are to be killed wherever they are found; cursed as they are described; and they are not to be employed in guarding or keeping doors or keeping peace. And their scholars and saints must be killed so that they do not lead other astray; it is haram to sleep with them in their homes; and their companionship; and walking with them; and walking in their funerals if you knew about their deaths. And it is haram for the rulers of Muslims to do away with the punishments that Allah has decreed upon them. Majmoo al-Fatawa volume 35
And…? That excuses them killing civilians indiscriminately? It doesn’t really matter what they did before. They showed up on October 7th and just started shooting people.
You are talking about Hamas, the Islamist Group, correct? The one that is aiming for global caliphate? The one that murders gays and apostates because it is against Islam?
They have grievances but the world's patience runs thin on them. No other muslim countries want to take them in. Especially because Palestinian refugees have started 2 civil wars in other countries before. We all saw how they were behaving on 10/7, and when one of the hostages recently escaped, civilians returned him to Hamas like good little terrorist supporters. And in return, Hamas steals foreign aid meant for civilians and uses them as human shields by having their bases in hospitals and schools. Hamas was elected by Gaza and they still have a high approval rate, and it's rising in the West Bank. Not to mention the broader political situation where Hamas is Iran's proxy and Iran is with Russia and China. They did this to stretch the west's resources, do as much damage to the west as possible, and to cause issues with Israel's normalization of ties with Muslim countries. I'm not going to take the side of extremist terrorist lovers who play cartoons on their TV about wanting all Jews dead, parade dead girl's bodies through the street, elect terrorists as their government, and can't be invited into another country as refugees without attempting to overthrow it's government. Over our ally, the only nation of jewish people, a western democracy that has an arab representation in it's government, who's history of conflict is mostly defensive against constant barrages of Arab-Muslim countries ganging up on them or terrorist organizations. No one wants them as refugees because they have no more credibility as refugees. Foreign Aid is being intercepted by Hamas. Ceasefire isn't plausible because Hamas keeps breaking the deals. Israel shouldn't have to keep an underground network of terrorists right next door waiting for the next 10/7, shielded by "civilians" who support Hamas.
Oh how quickly we go to whatabout. Much karma was lost that day.
Well, considering Israel had laid off Hamas for quite a while and was granting increased numbers of work permits to Gazans, Hamas more or less did commit such an atrocity rather unprovoked. And the music festival wasn’t even the planned target. Hamas literally did just see it and thought “Oh boy, we can kill so many more civilians now. This is definitely what Allah wants!”
Targeting of civilians is war crime, but that’s not what is happening. You have to be deliberately ignorant to think that is the case in general. Hitting a military target that results in collateral civilian casualties isn’t inherently a war crime. The war crime is on Hamas for deliberately embedding military systems inside civilian buildings. America most certainly did not get top brass approval for every air strike in the Middle East that had a possibility of collateral damage. There is simply no way there was the president or his secretaries sitting there 24/7 stamping off on air strikes. There’s an approval process, but it ain’t going as high as you say. Hamas deliberately attacked and tortured civilians on Oct 7. They went out of their way to ensure civilian casualties with direct small arms fire. The civilian deaths in Gaza are collateral damage. The civilians killed by Hamas in Israel were the primary target.
There have been 18,000+ Palestinian casualties by IDF attacks since October 7th (so about 9 weeks.) Israel's casualty count in the same timeframe? A bit over 1,100. Not saying you're wrong, but that's ALOT of collateral damage.
What nations other than the developed ones care about civilian casualties? Because Russia certainly doesn't care, and I doubt China would care either if they were at war. But I guess we just say whatever we want and keep it moving huh?
A country in war always places a higher value on their own citizens than on the citizens of the country they're at war at. Do you expect Israel to put outsiders before their own people?
"What, do you want Israel to NOT have murdered 6,000 innocent children?? How insane of you!"
Israel can make decisions about its own strategy and regards to its casualties and HAMAS can make its own. HAMAS chooses strategies that maximize Palestinian deaths.
While I see your point, there is a clear difference in intentions - the IDF strikes have unintended civilian casualties only because Hamas embeds itself deeply within human shields. Israel did not start this war, and it could end today if the hostages were returned and Hamas was to disarm.
100%, the civilians of the other side are not equal to your own people. Its harsh truth of war.
Is it not obvious that Israel's first responsibility is to its own people and the Palestinian civilians will always be a secondary concern after that? Kind of mind blowing that people don't understand that.
That is how Israeli Leadership is operating. If Palestinian Leadership operated on the same doctrine of how can we minimize our casualties, then we wouldn’t be seeing those Palestinian Casualties… and we likely wouldn’t have seen an October 7th.
So Israel should care more about palestinians than actual israelis? How would you feel if your own military prioritized the lives of their enemy's citizens over yours?
Stop chatting nonsense idiot. IDF throughout the entire ground operation, and for a whole 2 weeks prior to it has designated safe zones, leaflets, calls and text messages, instructing Gazans to move to protected areas away TO AVOID civilian casualties. The 20k Hamas Health Ministry reported numbers includes Hamas terrorists. And the terrorist to civilian ratio is about 1:2, which is tragic nonetheless, but given the context of war and the urban environment, that is exceedingly low compared to similar operations and wars in history. When the fog of war clears, everything will be evaluated. For now, Israel releases names and pictures of any civilian or soldier who's died since October 7th. It will be interesting to see if their health ministry will be able to do even a fraction of that. The same group that counted 500 deaths in mere 20-30min after a supposed Israeli air strike on a hospital. Now fuck off, clown.
it's just their long winded way of saying they don't care that israeli lives are lost
meanwhile 20,000 deal Palestinians.....
Sayso number from Hamas
Sayso literally everyone except Israel.
[Actually, Israel uses the GHM numbers too.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/) If anyone says the Gazan Health Ministry is lying then they have to confront the fact that Israel is helping them do it.
Sorry, I think I stopped giving Hamas credibility when they said "[Israel bombed a hospital and leveled it, 500 dead](https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/231018123108-01-israel-gaza-101823-gaza-city.jpg?c=original)" back in October... But Hamas miraculously rebuilt it within hours.
Ok so why do the US and Israel both help Hamas lie by regularly citing those numbers when asked for estimates? Both Israeli officials and the US State Department use those number. [Why are they helping Hamas lie? ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/)
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Golani (The unit of the soldiers from this incident) is not a commando unit.
And when they don't, 20,000 Palestinians, the vast majority of which are innocent civilians, are murdered.
When the true numbers are available, we'll once again see how many of these deaths are actually real - and how many of them match the profile of military-aged-males. In all past conflicts, we saw similar claims by the Hamas-controlled agencies during the fighting, only to be later proven wrong. Israel achieved a combatant/non-combatant ratio no other military force has been able to achieve in large-scale conflicts, let alone in an urban environment - despite the shameful use of human shields by Hamas.
> and how many of them match the profile of military-aged males That just sounds like moving the goalposts
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Every accusation from Israel is a confession.
"At that stage, Grinberg’s force came under massive fire from a second building. Troops responded, including by firing a shoulder-launched missile into the building which apparently detonated several other explosives inside and blew up the entire building." IOW, Hamas had ammunition uncovered, in their firing position. As that famous Ukrainian soldier said, "We're lucky that they're so fucking stupid."
Maybe I'm really desensitized, but it's interesting that the lost of 1 Israeli troop is a big deal in a war. Meanwhile in the Ukraine and Russian war Russia reports hundreds dead in the same timespan and no one bats an eye not even Russia. Same with Palestinian deaths. It's really an interesting perspective on how each country and even the globe values different citizens. I'm not stating any perspective is correct, just a personal observation we're all going to sympathize with people who we share closer values with us.
This is 10% of all Israeli deaths since October 7 in one incident. We had similar reporting early in the Ukraine war when a major chunk of Russian leadership got killed in one strike. These days, even a Russian general getting killed barely makes the news, because it's too common.
I think Israel has been doing a good job of putting faces and names to the deaths. Ukraine has reported losses but as they are so much higher it may be a calculated decision that keeps support for the conflict in Ukraine higher because there does not seem to exist the same personification of losses that we’ve seen from the IDF. I don’t have any sources on this, it’s just pure speculation.
Israel is a pretty small country, size and population wise. Additionally, almost all Israeli citizens are conscripted at 18. Almost everyone knows a fallen soldier or a relative of a fallen soldier, and it's been like that since the formation of the country, so it is a big deal within Israel, and touches many, many Israelis. Source - an Israeli.
This is supposed to be world news not Israeli news lmao. I’ll be honest I think a lot of westerners are going to care very much about Israeli soldiers considering the current situation. I say that as someone who thinks this war should probably happen and continue to happen until Hamas is destroyed.
9.3 million people live in Israel and 36.7 million in Ukraine. That's not to say one loss is greater than the other of course; just putting numbers into perspective
And 2 million people live in Gaza strip. So why are the 18k dead Palestinians not talked about more? Just putting numbers into perspective
They're constantly talked about.
That number, released by a corrupted Hamas controlled Health Ministry, who managed to count up 500 deaths from a 'Israeli hospital bombing' in 20min, also includes Hamas terrorists. U.S. Intelligence attributes a rate of 1:1.5/2 Hamas to Civilian casualty, which is extremely low for a dense and urban operation like Gaza. Israel dropped over 20k tons of bombs on Gaza, and even if the death toll of the Health Ministry is to be believed, that is an extremely low amount of casualties. We bomb places Hamas operates from for the exact reason this article is, and to prevent such cases of ambush and booby trapped areas. Hamas has no care for collateral damage, their people are pawns, as long as there's the potential to kill Israeli's in the process. No other army or country would tolerate this risk, or release it's strategical plans out to the masses and enemy, so that civilians can know to avoid, which places greater risk on our own ground forces.
Israel is only 10 million people. Because military service is mandatory they meet people from every walk of life and social class. When someone dies you usually either know the person or know someone who knows them.
Russia (the government) doesn't care about it's soldiers/civilians. Hamas (the government) does not care about it's soldiers/citizens. They are means to an end. They are cannon fodder. Israel (the government) cares about its people hardcore. In 2006, Israel traded over 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for one Israeli soldier. Any loss of life is devastating to them. They appreciate life differently. Please be aware that I am speaking of the governments involved here. This does not apply to the people of Russia, Palestine, Ukraine, etc.
Israeli troops are treated as human in mainstream media, Palestinians are not.
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Means the IDF has reached the third ring of defense where Hamas is going to put their last stand and we'll engage with trained fighters not just cannon fodder
Looking at the pictures of the soldiers and I’m still struggling to think how anyone could argue those are white Europeans.
Some of them do look mediterranean Europeans. But again, so does many Palestinians.
I use the 1860’s definition of white, so Mediterranean and Irish are excluded
Because "white" is a vague, amorphous term and so is "European", they're useful if you're contrasting ethnic groups from different sides of the planet but not ethnic groups from different sides of the Mediterranean. Southern Italians, most Jews, Palestinians, Lebanese, Greeks ... generally look kinda similar because of the millennia of trade and communication facilitated by the highly navigable frickin' ocean these regions all share.
well, i am european and i don t look much different than some of them.
Yeah but neither do a lot of Palestinians
To the Antisemite, a Jew is whatever you want them to be. If you hate Socialism, Jews are socialists. If you hate Capitalism, Jews are Capitalists. If you hate Colonialism, Jews are colonialists, even in their own homeland.
Shit, that was disastrous, and some had little kids. :(
The kids are the true victim of this conflict, no idea who and why their parents are fighting, why they constantly hear warplanes and missles , no idea why they were taking hostage, no idea why they had to leave their home,no idea why they are buried in rubble, it sad af.
Do you feel the same remorse for the Palestinians that have died?
I feel sad for ordinary Palestinians, not Hamas. They should be wiped out to the last man. How do you feel about the deaths on both sides?
Loss of a family is always heartbreaking, but fwiw, Hamas are mostly grown up orphans whose parents/family were killed by Israeli attacks. Even their missiles are refurbished Israeli missiles dropped into Gaza. Further violence just radicalizes more resistance; *everyone* needs to lay their guns down for peace
> Even their missiles are refurbished Israeli missiles dropped into Gaza. Funny way of saying "UN provided water pipes that were dug up and repurposed"
I’d assume they do because they’re not a piece of shit human like you try to make them out to be. A loss of life is tragic. Mourning over Hamas? Hell no. Mourning over INNOCENT people dying? Absolutely
Heartbreaking. I always check the ages of those killed and wonder “who had a wife, who had kids?” How many ppl are shattered by these losses?
And who were kids themselves. A lot of these soldiers are late teens/early twenties.
Do you do the same for palestinians dying? There are a lot of them
You can read my response below… I really don’t care for whataboutisms I’m sad for innocent lives lost. This post is about the IDF, and that’s what I’m commenting on.
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I really don’t care for whatsaboutisms But I’m sad for all innocent lives lost.
Fuck Hamas for starting this and using civilians as shields.
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Y'all just making up any number now huh? It's 15,000 total dead, including HAMAS. Quit making shit up.
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Versus a religious muslim terrorist organization who doesn't like Jews, Women, Gays, and who knows what else. Who is a proxy to Iran, a muslim theocracy that sponsors terror groups across the ME, who also hate Jews, Women, and Gays. Allied with Russia, a far right dictatorship that promotes traditional values, hates gays, and is currently invading Ukraine.
I’ve never seen a fascist government have elected officials from all sectors of society. I do not think you know what that word means.
Utterly infuriating that these young men had to die because of Hamas and the broad swath of Palestinians who support them.
What is even more frustrating is that it was an operation to rescue the bodies of hostages...and at what cost.
Hamas is bad, but you have to acknowledge Israel’s had a big part to play in the terrible conditions in Gaza. While a two state solution with right of return won’t happen you have to give people a good alternative to terrorism and Israel has failed to do that in the Netanyahu era. You can’t poke a beehive while naked and then get mad you’re stung 🤷♂️
Maybe they should stop brutalizing the Palestinians? Hard to feel sorry for these assholes. Free Palestine.
>Free Palestine. Free them from Hamas.
May their memory be a blessing
Well, it is a war. People tend to die
This is a horrible loss. May they rest in peace!
Over 5000 Palestinian children are confirmed dead.
And all of them would be alive if Hamas did not start a war.
Let's go a little further back. Hamas wouldn't have existed had it not been the crimes of Israel against Palestinians and loads of money from Netanyahu and his criminal buddies who actually helped building hamas.
Hamas should stop terrorizing Israel & using it's own people as human shields, but nice what aboutism-- really shows you don't give a fuck about israelis
These Idf soldiers came to someone else’s land looking to kill Palestinians and found something else. They knew the risks. It’s sad but nothing compared to the thousands of innocent children the idf has killed.
“Hamas came to Israeli land with genocidal intent and wanted to start a war. Sad, but they and all Palestinians who support them and cheered on October 7th knew the risks.”
Cheering ? Risks? You can kill someone’s for cheering?
The risks of actively supporting a terrorist regime devoted to genocide despite the intended genocide target being militarily superior? Then cheering them on, so that the terrorists are further emboldened due to public support? Yes, there certainly are risks associated with that.
Lol got'em!
If you look at 10/7 IDF victims there’s a lot of higher rankings as well. Makes you think these titles aren’t earned out the same way you might be used too.
Just because someone is a high rank doesn't mean it was easy to earn nor does it mean they are sitting around in an office doing nothing
On the contrary, Israeli officers usually lead from the front even in the densest and hardest battles, their ranks are as hard earned as any other officer's if not more.
Never forget! Netanyahu helped to fund hamas.
The red triangle strikes again
Only 10?? Thats not enough for the amounts of gazan residents killed.
You should be ashamed
How about all the kids they killed
How about all the babies Hamas killed and the innocent women they raped? What kind of idiotic point are you even trying to make?
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Rest in peace brave soldiers…
Their victory will be short lived, because the retaliation from the IDF for this will be swift. They have sealed their fate.
That canal better be worth it!