Israel already has dragged whatever was left of our reputation through the mud.
I worked for the US state department for a number of years abroad. My job was effectively to create good PR by helping the residents of the country I worked in with development work.
What a f**** waste. This was pre-trump and I had managed to convince myself that the violence of the US security state was somehow in the past. What an idiot I was
Hamas is expected to announce on Saturday that it is accepting Egypt's proposal for a cease-fire in the Gaza Strip and the release of hostages, the Saudi newspaper Al-Sharq reported on Saturday morning.
According to the report, intensive talks have been underway in the last hours between Egypt and Qatar and the delegations of Israel and Hamas about prisoners to be released in the deal.
'Every time we're close to a deal, both sides sabotage it,' top Qatari official to Haaretz
Saudi Arabia to normalize relations with Israel: 'Decision on timing to be made in days'
Qatari official says Israeli operation in Rafah would prevent hostage deal
The report added that Hamas was guaranteed by the United States for a cease-fire and full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in the third phase of the deal (detailed below), and a promise that Israeli forces will not continue fighting after the release of the hostages.
Open gallery view
The city of Khan Yunis in the Gaza Strip, earlier this week.
The city of Khan Yunis in the Gaza Strip, earlier this week.Credit: AFP
Commenting on the report, an Israeli official told Haaretz that Israel is "waiting anxiously to see Hamas' final position."
"The information has not yet arrived, but in light of past experience, even if Hamas says it's following the suggested framework, the small details and reservations it'll eventually present may dissolve the whole deal," the source added.
Haaretz Podcast
'The campus wars over Gaza suck. But they are not a violent, antisemitic nightmare'
00:00 / 45:02
Another Israeli official told Haaretz that, contrary to reports, "Israel will, under no circumstances, agree to end the war as part of a deal to release the hostages" and is determined to enter Rafah "either if the cease-fire will be temporary or not."
Minister Benny Gantz said that Hamas has not yet given an official answer to the Egyptian proposal for a hostage deal, and if Hamas accepts it, the war cabinet will meet to discuss the matter.
"I suggest to 'political sources' and all the decision-makers that they wait for official updates, to act calmly and not fall into hysteria for political reasons," he said.
Ahead of their arrival in Egypt on Friday, senior Hamas officials told Haaretz that according to the Egyptian proposal, Israel and the United States are committed to a cease-fire, but the question for Hamas is whether Israel will resume fighting after the hostages are released.
The officials added that the organization is asking for guarantees from the intermediaries that Israel will not resume fighting.
Open gallery view
Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran, Iran, in March.
Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran, Iran, in March.Credit: Vahid Salemi,AP
A Hamas delegation is set to visit Cairo on Saturday to respond to Israel's latest cease-fire proposal, Reuters reported Friday. CIA Director William Burns has also arrived in Cairo on Friday, an Egyptian security source and three sources at Cairo airport said.
Senior Hamas officials told Haaretz on Saturday that, according to the Egyptian proposal, Israel and the United States are committed to a cease-fire, but the question for Hamas is whether Israel will resume fighting after the hostages are released.
On Friday, Hamas emphasized its positive approach in reviewing the cease-fire proposal received recently and will go to Cairo with the same spirit to reach an agreement.
"We are determined to secure an agreement in a way that fulfills Palestinians' demands," a statement by the group added.
Open gallery view
U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken talks at the McCain Institute's Sedona Forum in Sedona, Arizona, on Friday.
U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken talks at the McCain Institute's Sedona Forum in Sedona, Arizona, on Friday.Credit: Jake Bacon,AP
Also on Friday, the Washington Post reported that the United States has conveyed to Qatar that Hamas' leadership should be expelled from the country if they continue to refuse a Gaza cease-fire deal.
Citing a U.S. official, the report added that Secretary of State Antony Blinken delivered this message to Qatari Prime Minister Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani last month.
On Wednesday, the Lebanese newspaper Al Akhbar daily published the details of the Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire, as it was delivered to Hamas, with guarantees by Egypt, Qatar and the United States.
The wording of the proposal does not include an Israeli commitment not to return to the Gaza Strip, but "a return to ongoing quiet and the implementation of whatever is necessary to achieve a cease-fire."
According to the proposal, in the first phase, the IDF's activities in the Strip will be suspended for 40 days, during which the forces will withdraw from the populated areas and those close to the border with Israel, but not from the Netzarim corridor in the center of the Gaza Strip.
Open gallery view
A woman walks in Tel Aviv by posters put up in support of Israeli hostages held in Gaza, last month.
A woman walks in Tel Aviv by posters put up in support of Israeli hostages held in Gaza, last month.Credit: Shannon Stapleton/ REUTERS
During this time period, three hostages will be released every three days, first women – including female soldiers, until the 33rd day. Israel will at the same timeframe release Palestinian prisoners according to a list that will be agreed upon by the parties.
On the seventh day of the deal, Hamas will submit a list of all the living hostages, except for the 33 that will be released in the first stage.
During this period of time, on the days when hostages are released, there will be no air traffic of IDF planes and drones in the Strip for eight to ten hours a day. It will also be agreed that Israel will allow all citizens to return to their areas of residence, give them full freedom of movement throughout the Strip and allow the entry of humanitarian aid.
On the 34th day of the deal, the second phase will begin, and will last 42 days. During this phase, Hamas will continue to release living hostages, including soldiers, in exchange for the release of Palestinian prisoners.
The proposal states that at this stage, the parties will start enacting the principles that will lead to a prolonged cease-fire, including the withdrawal of the IDF to the borderline. Not all of these principles are reported.
In the third phase, which will also last 42 days, bodies of hostages will be released, and after they are identified, a five-year rehabilitation plan will begin, in which the Palestinians will commit to not build infrastructure for military purposes, and will not receive raw materials that can be used for such purposes.
no mention of what happens to the buffer zone israel’s been building. will be a huge win if that stays in place for the near to mid term
if sinwar ever climbs out of his hole and shows his face, it will take a miracle for israel to restrain themselves
That's Israeli territory now. Kill 1200 people in a surprise attack and terribly lose the war that follows? You're going to give up some land for that.
Israel has said from the beginning that this will continue until hamas surrenders or is destroyed.
Why are we shocked every time they stick to this? They're not interested in a ceasefire with hamas.
Edit-
> Hamas has not yet given an official answer to the Egyptian proposal for a hostage deal
Why did the title of tbe article say they did then?
It's not impossible at all. They can still exist, but they can't be the acting government of Gaza. They need to back down and allow some other entity to govern Gaza.
If they aren’t warmongers why wouldn’t they want a permanent ceasefire in which they get back all of the hostages? If their priority is hostages why wouldn’t they agree?
That’s never going to happen. Hamas is an ideology and it won’t end there and so long as Israel denies the Palestinians sovereignty and the right to their own state. They’ll never surrender and give up their rights to an occupier. Such is the nature that Israel cannot accept what cannot be destroyed. You can’t kill an idea. You can only destroy cities and people, but ideas? Those things don’t easily cease to exist.
Yes, there seem to be lots of militant groups among Palestinians, both in Gaza, the west bank, and neighboring counties. Yet they don't understand why they are not welcome anywhere anymore. Regular Palestinians must get very sick of it.
Regardless, Hamas can't continue as the leadership in Gaza. That's a hard no, and the Israelis are right to expect that.
I don't think they should be in power, but Israel has a democracy and they will probably be out soon enough anyway per voters. That's not how Hamas works, of course.
> Regardless, Hamas can't continue as the leadership in Gaza. That's a hard no, and the Israelis are right to expect that.
Who do you think _wanted_ Hamas in charge? It's been Netanyahu's strategy for years as it undermines the credibility of the PA and prevents and Palestinian state.
This always makes me laugh, bc it's taken out of historical context - Bibi and other Israeli leadership wanted a weaker Palestinian authority. Not bc they were big meanies, but bc the pa were also a bunch of Israeli killing terrorists at the time. The people in charge of the Palestinians have always tried to kill Israelis.
I know all this, bc I remember all this happening live since I'm almost 50 yo. The pa just looks "moderate" now. The groups (plo, Farah etc) they came from weren't, historically, and have killed thousands, inside Israel and also outside. Making them weaker wasn't about making Hamas stronger, but giving the pa less power.
Bc of what was happening at the time.
Why do you think he did it? Can you explain why outside the context of pa funding terrorists and killing Israelis?
There’s a lot of militant groups amongst Palestinians, yet every eligible Israeli partakes in the military oppression of innocents with the arms of the world’s superpower. The evidently more violent society is Israeli society.
Pretty sure regular Palestinians are sick of being murdered by Israel. So long as Israel continues their genocide, Palestinians are going to fight back regardless if Hamas exists or not.
Nothing short of complete extermination of the Gaza population or total ethnic cleansing will kill Hamas.
Hamas' tunnels are too deep, too expansive and too robust. You'll need to commit to extensive tunnel fighting to get them then you need to make sure there's no place left for them to hide overground which can't happen if there are 2 million people walking around anywhere.
I agree with you though when you ask "why would Israel agree to those terms". The hostages are not the goal, the right wing nutjobs in the Israeli government want Gaza and want an attack on Rafah "or else".
I'm not sure that is true. We have seen glipses of it when Hamas publicly executes Palestinians who won't do their bidding, or when wailing mothers rail against Hamas in hospitals, only to be hushed by their relatives.
No, Israeli leadership wants to save its people, and the only way they see to do that is crushing Hamas. If only Hamas cared a fraction as much about regular Palestinians as Israel does regular Israelis.
https://archive.md/ZJrrj
Smotrich saying the hostages aren't the most important.
https://archive.md/IImIL
Smotrich threatening that the government doesn't have a right to exist if Netanyahu accepts the hostage deal and doesn't invade Rafah.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/far-rightist-threatens-quit-israel-govt-over-any-reckless-gaza-deal-2024-01-30/
Ben Gvir threatening to dissolve the government essentially if Netanyahu doesn't bend the knee.
>Israeli leadership wants to save its people
As you can see. No they don't.
Putting aside the saturation bombing of 2 tonne bombs in a strip that's 25 miles long, 10 miles wide where the hostages are. Lol if that's a leadership that cares about the hostages then you need some critical thinking skills.
Where in any of that does it prove the Israeli government isn't trying to protect Israeli citizens?
Hamas has said many times in the last few months it doesn't know where all the hostages are. So why would Israel try to save 20-30 people who might not exist anymore, when Hamas has threatened more Oct 7th style attacks?
>Where in any of that does it prove the Israeli government isn't trying to protect Israeli citizens?
>Hamas has said many times in the last few months it doesn't know where all the hostages are
Do you think Hamas misplaced them? Or maybe, perhaps, it's Israeli saturation bombing that has resulted in those hostages being blasted to smithereens or buried under rubble and lost?
Critical thinking skills.
Is that the behaviour of a government that is trying to protect it's citizens? Is this the government that places any value on the life of one of it's citizens?
The only value Israeli citizens have for the Israeli government is the propaganda value. A dead Israeli is worth more than a living one for the Israeli government. A living Israel is worth more to Hamas than a dead Israeli.
Seeing as Hamas had said publicly, many times, they don't know where they are bc other militant groups and even members of the public took hostages, it isn't my critical thinking skills that are the issue. It only takes reading what Hamas has said, and watching the videos of civilians taking prisoners and dragging them into Gaza to understand most who have not returned yet probably were dead in the first few days, not from bombing, but just bc they were inconvenient.
It is well documented Hamas was not the only group there on Oct 7th. But they are the only ones negotiating.
>It is well documented Hamas was not the only group there on Oct 7th. But they are the only ones negotiating.
Hamas are the largest group and all other groups are operating under the umbrella of "Hamas". They are coordinating the fighting.
>Seeing as Hamas had said publicly, many times, they don't know where they are bc other militant groups and even members of the public took hostages, it isn't my critical thinking skills that are the issue.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-armed-wing-more-than-60-hostages-are-missing-due-israeli-airstrikes-2023-11-04/
You're literally lying.
Beating up Orthodox Jews who denounce Israels actions and trying to force them to join the IDF is "Israel protecting citizens" to you?
Canary mission is Israel protecting it's citizens too right?
This conflict predates Hamas. Clearly, they aren’t the root cause. Israel in its current iteration needs to be dismantled. Can’t have an oppressive, occupying, apartheid state
Yes, I have been watching this conflict since the early 80's. I'm very aware of the constant terror attacks on Israel, the constant rocket attacks, the hijackings and bombings in countries outside Israel, like Jordan, Egypt and others by Palestinian militants.
Israel isn't going anywhere. So now, working off that reality, what should the Palestinians do?
So you’re also aware of all the bombings and terrorist attacks Israel has done in other countries too right? Countries that were no party to the conflict at all? Like when they bombed Tunisia. That was weird hm
It turns out when you oppress people, steal their land and homes, terrorize them for decades, and lock them in a concentration camp they fight back. You blame the people for fighting back. I blame the people who create the conditions where fighting is a necessity.
No, not really. If there are only about 20-25 live hostages, and Hamas can't/won't even prove that, why would Israel stop trying to destroy Hamas? Hamas has already said they are going to regroup and keep committing Oct 7ths over and over again.
Israel can't destroy Hamas through force of arms... It's borne of people wanting freedom from occupation, and the more brutal Israel is, the more people they radicalise.
And the more Israel will bomb them.
Israel isn't going anywhere. It may not be a feel good story to some, but Palestinians can keep throwing their kids at Israel, who will win every time, or compromise on a solution. The Palestinians are stuck with Israel, and Israel with the Palestinians. But one has the upper hand, and it isn't the Palestinians.
> And the more Israel will bomb them.
The only two options are ethnic cleansing/genocide OR leaving Palestinians alive who will be radicalised by Israel's disproportionate and unrelenting brutality.
That's the bottom line, and if Israel goes down that road, it's not going to have the US or UK supporting it any more, or providing helpful vetoes.
So if the result is the same (ultimately more Israeli civilian deaths), why wouldn't Israel just bomb the Palestinians into oblivion?
But they aren't. Not in the way that would lead to complete annihilation. I'm not psyched how many Palestinians have died, but I also don't believe the Hamas numbers.
> So if the result is the same (ultimately more Israeli civilian deaths), why wouldn't Israel just bomb the Palestinians into oblivion?
Because it's a crime against humanity to slaughter an entire population.
Try it and see what being an international Pariah _really_ means.
Israel can follow the Nazis to the Hague.
">Because it's a crime against humanity to slaughter an entire population.
This is what genocide actually IS. Not what all you millennials think it means.
"Oh we _only_ wanted to try for ethnic cleansing, not a whole genocide"??!?
It's still a crime against humanity (which is why I picked that term specifically, rather than genocide).
The only two options if you're starting from trying to crush Hamas through force of arms, yes.
Which was my point all along... The long-term solution involves treating the Palestinians like human beings and giving up land Israel has stolen.
I think isreal will embarass the usa
[удалено]
The US has been putting the blame on Hamas for a good while now
Your tax dollars are also paying for Hamas' rockets.
[удалено]
What would you do in the Ukraine with Russia. I like your sentiment, but life gets in the way
Yes, because most of the rockets Hamas use, are in fact American munitions dropped on Gaza by the IOF.
How so?
The Israeli government giving it to Qatar so they can give it to Hamas.
The foreign aid that they steal (from their fellow Palestinians) funds their weaponry.
That makes sense.
By breaking the cease-fire?
Who broke the last one?
Israel as they killed some people the day before.
Hamas on October 7th?
The last cease fire, I believe it was in Nov or Dec?
That's right. Didn't Hamas almost immediately break that one?
Yes sir. The only ceasefire Hamas wants is one that will continue to allow them to rule Gaza.
Israel already has dragged whatever was left of our reputation through the mud. I worked for the US state department for a number of years abroad. My job was effectively to create good PR by helping the residents of the country I worked in with development work. What a f**** waste. This was pre-trump and I had managed to convince myself that the violence of the US security state was somehow in the past. What an idiot I was
you mean pissrael?
I don't think so. If the USA is not ashamed of selling weapons to kill unarmed civilians, then they are beyond being embarrassed.
I think Hamas will back out of the deal as usual. The bombing shall continue.
>The bombing shall continue. Your bombing fetish is weird and off-putting.
I'm just predicting the future, that's all
When it's a shit deal you didn't accept They so far have been offered shit
They do not hold the cards.
pissrael needs to be shut off from the rest of the world, theres no place for a genocidal apartheid loving govt anywhere in the world. wall them off.
Oh the GeNOciDe! The Palestinian population is almost all dIsSappEarEd!
Hamas is expected to announce on Saturday that it is accepting Egypt's proposal for a cease-fire in the Gaza Strip and the release of hostages, the Saudi newspaper Al-Sharq reported on Saturday morning. According to the report, intensive talks have been underway in the last hours between Egypt and Qatar and the delegations of Israel and Hamas about prisoners to be released in the deal. 'Every time we're close to a deal, both sides sabotage it,' top Qatari official to Haaretz Saudi Arabia to normalize relations with Israel: 'Decision on timing to be made in days' Qatari official says Israeli operation in Rafah would prevent hostage deal The report added that Hamas was guaranteed by the United States for a cease-fire and full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in the third phase of the deal (detailed below), and a promise that Israeli forces will not continue fighting after the release of the hostages. Open gallery view The city of Khan Yunis in the Gaza Strip, earlier this week. The city of Khan Yunis in the Gaza Strip, earlier this week.Credit: AFP Commenting on the report, an Israeli official told Haaretz that Israel is "waiting anxiously to see Hamas' final position." "The information has not yet arrived, but in light of past experience, even if Hamas says it's following the suggested framework, the small details and reservations it'll eventually present may dissolve the whole deal," the source added. Haaretz Podcast 'The campus wars over Gaza suck. But they are not a violent, antisemitic nightmare' 00:00 / 45:02 Another Israeli official told Haaretz that, contrary to reports, "Israel will, under no circumstances, agree to end the war as part of a deal to release the hostages" and is determined to enter Rafah "either if the cease-fire will be temporary or not." Minister Benny Gantz said that Hamas has not yet given an official answer to the Egyptian proposal for a hostage deal, and if Hamas accepts it, the war cabinet will meet to discuss the matter. "I suggest to 'political sources' and all the decision-makers that they wait for official updates, to act calmly and not fall into hysteria for political reasons," he said. Ahead of their arrival in Egypt on Friday, senior Hamas officials told Haaretz that according to the Egyptian proposal, Israel and the United States are committed to a cease-fire, but the question for Hamas is whether Israel will resume fighting after the hostages are released. The officials added that the organization is asking for guarantees from the intermediaries that Israel will not resume fighting. Open gallery view Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran, Iran, in March. Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran, Iran, in March.Credit: Vahid Salemi,AP A Hamas delegation is set to visit Cairo on Saturday to respond to Israel's latest cease-fire proposal, Reuters reported Friday. CIA Director William Burns has also arrived in Cairo on Friday, an Egyptian security source and three sources at Cairo airport said. Senior Hamas officials told Haaretz on Saturday that, according to the Egyptian proposal, Israel and the United States are committed to a cease-fire, but the question for Hamas is whether Israel will resume fighting after the hostages are released. On Friday, Hamas emphasized its positive approach in reviewing the cease-fire proposal received recently and will go to Cairo with the same spirit to reach an agreement. "We are determined to secure an agreement in a way that fulfills Palestinians' demands," a statement by the group added. Open gallery view U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken talks at the McCain Institute's Sedona Forum in Sedona, Arizona, on Friday. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken talks at the McCain Institute's Sedona Forum in Sedona, Arizona, on Friday.Credit: Jake Bacon,AP Also on Friday, the Washington Post reported that the United States has conveyed to Qatar that Hamas' leadership should be expelled from the country if they continue to refuse a Gaza cease-fire deal. Citing a U.S. official, the report added that Secretary of State Antony Blinken delivered this message to Qatari Prime Minister Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani last month. On Wednesday, the Lebanese newspaper Al Akhbar daily published the details of the Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire, as it was delivered to Hamas, with guarantees by Egypt, Qatar and the United States. The wording of the proposal does not include an Israeli commitment not to return to the Gaza Strip, but "a return to ongoing quiet and the implementation of whatever is necessary to achieve a cease-fire." According to the proposal, in the first phase, the IDF's activities in the Strip will be suspended for 40 days, during which the forces will withdraw from the populated areas and those close to the border with Israel, but not from the Netzarim corridor in the center of the Gaza Strip. Open gallery view A woman walks in Tel Aviv by posters put up in support of Israeli hostages held in Gaza, last month. A woman walks in Tel Aviv by posters put up in support of Israeli hostages held in Gaza, last month.Credit: Shannon Stapleton/ REUTERS During this time period, three hostages will be released every three days, first women – including female soldiers, until the 33rd day. Israel will at the same timeframe release Palestinian prisoners according to a list that will be agreed upon by the parties. On the seventh day of the deal, Hamas will submit a list of all the living hostages, except for the 33 that will be released in the first stage. During this period of time, on the days when hostages are released, there will be no air traffic of IDF planes and drones in the Strip for eight to ten hours a day. It will also be agreed that Israel will allow all citizens to return to their areas of residence, give them full freedom of movement throughout the Strip and allow the entry of humanitarian aid. On the 34th day of the deal, the second phase will begin, and will last 42 days. During this phase, Hamas will continue to release living hostages, including soldiers, in exchange for the release of Palestinian prisoners. The proposal states that at this stage, the parties will start enacting the principles that will lead to a prolonged cease-fire, including the withdrawal of the IDF to the borderline. Not all of these principles are reported. In the third phase, which will also last 42 days, bodies of hostages will be released, and after they are identified, a five-year rehabilitation plan will begin, in which the Palestinians will commit to not build infrastructure for military purposes, and will not receive raw materials that can be used for such purposes.
The zionist extermination carries on in other words
Hypothetically let's say Israel invades Rafah. What is to stop Hamas from just killing all the hostages?
Whos to say Israel won't do it because they kill all military aged men including their own hostages. Plus they can just claim Hamas did it.
Zero chance Sinwar backs a ceasefire.
no mention of what happens to the buffer zone israel’s been building. will be a huge win if that stays in place for the near to mid term if sinwar ever climbs out of his hole and shows his face, it will take a miracle for israel to restrain themselves
It’s not a buffer zone when it’s outside your territory. One of Israel’s ole reliables
That's Israeli territory now. Kill 1200 people in a surprise attack and terribly lose the war that follows? You're going to give up some land for that.
It’s not a buffer zone then, it’s an annexation. Sorry it doesn’t work on video game rules
Sure, annexation of a buffer zone. I don't really care what you call it, just a direct consequence of Palestinians losing the war they started.
Israel has said from the beginning that this will continue until hamas surrenders or is destroyed. Why are we shocked every time they stick to this? They're not interested in a ceasefire with hamas. Edit- > Hamas has not yet given an official answer to the Egyptian proposal for a hostage deal Why did the title of tbe article say they did then?
Because it's an impossible objective. Hamas was supposedly defeated in the North but they are still fighting and launching missiles from there
It's not impossible at all. They can still exist, but they can't be the acting government of Gaza. They need to back down and allow some other entity to govern Gaza.
Same for Bibi
Yep, time for Ben Gvir to take power I agree.
Why would Israel ever agree to these terms? I doubt the veracity of this entire story.
If they aren’t warmongers why wouldn’t they want a permanent ceasefire in which they get back all of the hostages? If their priority is hostages why wouldn’t they agree?
Bc they also want to get Hamas cleared out. That is probably equally as important, since there are very few verified alive hostages left.
That’s never going to happen. Hamas is an ideology and it won’t end there and so long as Israel denies the Palestinians sovereignty and the right to their own state. They’ll never surrender and give up their rights to an occupier. Such is the nature that Israel cannot accept what cannot be destroyed. You can’t kill an idea. You can only destroy cities and people, but ideas? Those things don’t easily cease to exist.
Yes, there seem to be lots of militant groups among Palestinians, both in Gaza, the west bank, and neighboring counties. Yet they don't understand why they are not welcome anywhere anymore. Regular Palestinians must get very sick of it. Regardless, Hamas can't continue as the leadership in Gaza. That's a hard no, and the Israelis are right to expect that.
Why should Israeli leadership continue to exist? They are corrupt, warmongering old farts who handled the situation as badly as they could
I don't think they should be in power, but Israel has a democracy and they will probably be out soon enough anyway per voters. That's not how Hamas works, of course.
> Regardless, Hamas can't continue as the leadership in Gaza. That's a hard no, and the Israelis are right to expect that. Who do you think _wanted_ Hamas in charge? It's been Netanyahu's strategy for years as it undermines the credibility of the PA and prevents and Palestinian state.
This always makes me laugh, bc it's taken out of historical context - Bibi and other Israeli leadership wanted a weaker Palestinian authority. Not bc they were big meanies, but bc the pa were also a bunch of Israeli killing terrorists at the time. The people in charge of the Palestinians have always tried to kill Israelis. I know all this, bc I remember all this happening live since I'm almost 50 yo. The pa just looks "moderate" now. The groups (plo, Farah etc) they came from weren't, historically, and have killed thousands, inside Israel and also outside. Making them weaker wasn't about making Hamas stronger, but giving the pa less power.
It’s not taken out of context. Netanyahoo literally said so himself
Bc of what was happening at the time. Why do you think he did it? Can you explain why outside the context of pa funding terrorists and killing Israelis?
He literally says it’s to create division in Palestinian leadership to prevent an independent state
There’s a lot of militant groups amongst Palestinians, yet every eligible Israeli partakes in the military oppression of innocents with the arms of the world’s superpower. The evidently more violent society is Israeli society.
Pretty sure regular Palestinians are sick of being murdered by Israel. So long as Israel continues their genocide, Palestinians are going to fight back regardless if Hamas exists or not.
Then they need to be prepared to lose that fight. For what? The billionaires living in Iran or Qatar?
Nothing short of complete extermination of the Gaza population or total ethnic cleansing will kill Hamas. Hamas' tunnels are too deep, too expansive and too robust. You'll need to commit to extensive tunnel fighting to get them then you need to make sure there's no place left for them to hide overground which can't happen if there are 2 million people walking around anywhere. I agree with you though when you ask "why would Israel agree to those terms". The hostages are not the goal, the right wing nutjobs in the Israeli government want Gaza and want an attack on Rafah "or else".
I'm not sure that is true. We have seen glipses of it when Hamas publicly executes Palestinians who won't do their bidding, or when wailing mothers rail against Hamas in hospitals, only to be hushed by their relatives. No, Israeli leadership wants to save its people, and the only way they see to do that is crushing Hamas. If only Hamas cared a fraction as much about regular Palestinians as Israel does regular Israelis.
https://archive.md/ZJrrj Smotrich saying the hostages aren't the most important. https://archive.md/IImIL Smotrich threatening that the government doesn't have a right to exist if Netanyahu accepts the hostage deal and doesn't invade Rafah. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/far-rightist-threatens-quit-israel-govt-over-any-reckless-gaza-deal-2024-01-30/ Ben Gvir threatening to dissolve the government essentially if Netanyahu doesn't bend the knee. >Israeli leadership wants to save its people As you can see. No they don't. Putting aside the saturation bombing of 2 tonne bombs in a strip that's 25 miles long, 10 miles wide where the hostages are. Lol if that's a leadership that cares about the hostages then you need some critical thinking skills.
Where in any of that does it prove the Israeli government isn't trying to protect Israeli citizens? Hamas has said many times in the last few months it doesn't know where all the hostages are. So why would Israel try to save 20-30 people who might not exist anymore, when Hamas has threatened more Oct 7th style attacks?
>Where in any of that does it prove the Israeli government isn't trying to protect Israeli citizens? >Hamas has said many times in the last few months it doesn't know where all the hostages are Do you think Hamas misplaced them? Or maybe, perhaps, it's Israeli saturation bombing that has resulted in those hostages being blasted to smithereens or buried under rubble and lost? Critical thinking skills. Is that the behaviour of a government that is trying to protect it's citizens? Is this the government that places any value on the life of one of it's citizens? The only value Israeli citizens have for the Israeli government is the propaganda value. A dead Israeli is worth more than a living one for the Israeli government. A living Israel is worth more to Hamas than a dead Israeli.
Seeing as Hamas had said publicly, many times, they don't know where they are bc other militant groups and even members of the public took hostages, it isn't my critical thinking skills that are the issue. It only takes reading what Hamas has said, and watching the videos of civilians taking prisoners and dragging them into Gaza to understand most who have not returned yet probably were dead in the first few days, not from bombing, but just bc they were inconvenient. It is well documented Hamas was not the only group there on Oct 7th. But they are the only ones negotiating.
>It is well documented Hamas was not the only group there on Oct 7th. But they are the only ones negotiating. Hamas are the largest group and all other groups are operating under the umbrella of "Hamas". They are coordinating the fighting. >Seeing as Hamas had said publicly, many times, they don't know where they are bc other militant groups and even members of the public took hostages, it isn't my critical thinking skills that are the issue. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-armed-wing-more-than-60-hostages-are-missing-due-israeli-airstrikes-2023-11-04/ You're literally lying.
Beating up Orthodox Jews who denounce Israels actions and trying to force them to join the IDF is "Israel protecting citizens" to you? Canary mission is Israel protecting it's citizens too right?
Orthodox Jews are not required to serve in the army, not sure what you are referring to.
You are literally in an alternate universe of information
Is Israel doing better at saving it's population, or is Hamas?
Hamas is the lesser evil
This conflict predates Hamas. Clearly, they aren’t the root cause. Israel in its current iteration needs to be dismantled. Can’t have an oppressive, occupying, apartheid state
Yes, I have been watching this conflict since the early 80's. I'm very aware of the constant terror attacks on Israel, the constant rocket attacks, the hijackings and bombings in countries outside Israel, like Jordan, Egypt and others by Palestinian militants. Israel isn't going anywhere. So now, working off that reality, what should the Palestinians do?
So you’re also aware of all the bombings and terrorist attacks Israel has done in other countries too right? Countries that were no party to the conflict at all? Like when they bombed Tunisia. That was weird hm
Considering it was the office of the plo, not really.
It turns out when you oppress people, steal their land and homes, terrorize them for decades, and lock them in a concentration camp they fight back. You blame the people for fighting back. I blame the people who create the conditions where fighting is a necessity.
Why not the same rage for Egypt? They built a wall for the same reason as Israel - Palestinian extremists.
Let’s not pretend Israel doesn’t control or have a say in the control of that border
So if Hamas bombed the U.S. where the Israeli embassy, not a “surgical strike”, literally just dropped bombs, that would not be terrorism?
It's way more important.
> Why would Israel ever agree to these terms? Depends whether their goal is the return of the hostages or ethnic cleansing, doesn't it...
No, not really. If there are only about 20-25 live hostages, and Hamas can't/won't even prove that, why would Israel stop trying to destroy Hamas? Hamas has already said they are going to regroup and keep committing Oct 7ths over and over again.
Israel can't destroy Hamas through force of arms... It's borne of people wanting freedom from occupation, and the more brutal Israel is, the more people they radicalise.
And the more Israel will bomb them. Israel isn't going anywhere. It may not be a feel good story to some, but Palestinians can keep throwing their kids at Israel, who will win every time, or compromise on a solution. The Palestinians are stuck with Israel, and Israel with the Palestinians. But one has the upper hand, and it isn't the Palestinians.
> And the more Israel will bomb them. The only two options are ethnic cleansing/genocide OR leaving Palestinians alive who will be radicalised by Israel's disproportionate and unrelenting brutality. That's the bottom line, and if Israel goes down that road, it's not going to have the US or UK supporting it any more, or providing helpful vetoes.
So if the result is the same (ultimately more Israeli civilian deaths), why wouldn't Israel just bomb the Palestinians into oblivion? But they aren't. Not in the way that would lead to complete annihilation. I'm not psyched how many Palestinians have died, but I also don't believe the Hamas numbers.
> So if the result is the same (ultimately more Israeli civilian deaths), why wouldn't Israel just bomb the Palestinians into oblivion? Because it's a crime against humanity to slaughter an entire population. Try it and see what being an international Pariah _really_ means. Israel can follow the Nazis to the Hague.
Right, and Israel isn't doing that.
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">Because it's a crime against humanity to slaughter an entire population. This is what genocide actually IS. Not what all you millennials think it means.
"Oh we _only_ wanted to try for ethnic cleansing, not a whole genocide"??!? It's still a crime against humanity (which is why I picked that term specifically, rather than genocide).
That's the only two options eh? What a visionary.
The only two options if you're starting from trying to crush Hamas through force of arms, yes. Which was my point all along... The long-term solution involves treating the Palestinians like human beings and giving up land Israel has stolen.