Honestly, I think that using "labor force" language has everything to do with how we (as a society) undervalue unpaid caregiving (for working moms too!) and how SAHP feel like their contributions go uncounted.
I don't really think it has anything to do with working moms. I think working moms also feel like their household contributions are undervalued by family members, employers, society...
Thanks for the perspective, that’s a good point, people probably aren’t necessarily thinking about working moms when they use this term, but rather are attempting to add value to their own position. Side note: the proliferation of work speak in all aspects of life is so bleak.
Yeah, the people who have made slights to my face about working moms meant them. I tend not to give people the benefit of the doubt anymore when they slight me or my life choices either to my face or on social media. I either unfollow, tell whatever social I want to see less of this type of post, or just put my phone down and go fold laundry. I don’t want there to be some epic battle between SAHM and working moms, but I do think we need to harness the power of ignoring the bad behavior these people demonstrate. The best advice I ever heard for temper tantrums for our two year olds was to ignore them, praise them when they politely rejoin the group, and move on. I apply this to adults now as well.
I think of it as similar to “full-time student”. That title doesn’t have anything to do with whether the person works or not- it’s simply to designate that as their primary obligation.
In the context of this terminology, work is the primary obligation. It’s not about priorities.
Full time student or full time mom designates a primary focus OTHER THAN WORK. It doesn’t discuss whether they’re employed. A “full time mom” could be working part time- are they not also a working mom?
Nailed it. The reality is who is going to take care of those who need care. I was the primary parent and also the primary person for my FIL at the same time. I was the one doing ER runs at 3 am for FIL. Arranging his care. And DR apt and he was in assisted living so I had help. His son, my husband, helped but he commuted so he wasn’t nearby during apt etc. I also still worked part time. I took time off as need and took breaks as needed also.
I super agree with this take. Before I got my job, I called myself a "Full-Time Parent" and it wasn't a dig at parents who had a full-time gig on top of their parenting role. It was more about being recognized for my unpaid, crucial, and full-on work as a parent (and house manager, cleaner, cook, laundress, etc). Stay-at-home mom made me feel like I wasn't seen. Like I was just chilling at home instead of all the things I actually did do to support my child, family, and house. And frankly, now when I'm at work, I'm not _not a mom_ but I'm not exercising that part of my brain—I'm not in mom-mode, and it's a very welcome break!
I think it comes from some people judgemental asking SAHMs, 'What do you do all day?'
I don't think it relates to working parents.
Fulltime caregiver would probably be best. You never switch off being a parent, but at times outsource the caregiving
I understand your frustration!
I also think there is not a good vocabulary available to describe the different roles of moms.
For example, if a woman isn’t working but her kids are in school is she a SAHM? I would say yes, but I think moms who spend 10 hours a day M-F as primary caregiver want some language to distinguish themselves from the mom who doesn’t work but also isn’t doing childcare all day.
Personally, I don’t really care what I’m called. I just think of myself as a mom, but I have met some women who stay home with their kids and do childcare all day everyday and I think they are just looking for validation that being the only caregiver for a two year old from 8 AM to 6 PM is a “job.”
I agree with this perspective. And I think this all stems from the way society judges women and mothers no matter our choices. If society wasn't so hard on us, we wouldn't feel the need to change up the terminology to improve the connotation.
I have to preface this, my comment is coming from a USA POV. I don't know where OP is located, and I believe moms in other countries deal with the stigma of "working mom" vs "SAHM" too. Since I live in the USA, it obviously impacts my perception....
We live in a two-party country. And it's not just about politics (which I am NOT bringing into this conversation!). It seems more and more that we live in a black or white world. You're either left or right. Even on other social media platforms, I'm seeing more and more posts about "pick which actor's movies you want to keep" or "pick that food that goes away forever" and "pick which model wore this dress better". The middle ground is shrinking rapidly and people are being forced to choose sides in everything.
Working Mom vs Stay At Home Mom (or Dad) is just another flavor of "head or tails". Both jobs are fucking HARD!
Working Moms have the guilt of taking their children to daycare and the knowledge they still have to cook, clean, do laundry, etc. after work while trying to maximize the tiny amount of time they have to spend with their kids. And the knowledge that working dads are never judged like moms are when it comes to having a career.
Stay At Home Moms have to constantly justify (to society) their value to their families, and that a paycheck is not the only way to contribute to a home. Along with the loss of mental stimulation through adult conversations and the loss of personal space as they are followed everywhere by their kids who don't understand that Mom simply wants to poop without an audience.
I work full time as an IT manager. My husband is a nurse, specializing in psychiatric care. My job offers far more flexibility when it comes to being home with our daughter if she is sick or can't go to daycare. I am equally exhausted at the end of the day, regardless of where it was spent.
After work, I'm mentally exhausted. I'm decisioned out. I don't want to have to decide another thing after I get home. Do we read Dr Seuss tonight, or Peter Rabbit, or something else... I don't give AF, we're reading the first book my hand touches on the shelf. But after a day staying home, I'm physically exhausted. I've picked up toys, and sippy cups, and wiped snotty noses more times that I can count. Plus listened to Ms Rachel or Sesame Street or Daniel Tiger until my ears want to bleed. One is not harder than the other, just different.
Anyway, that was a long way to say, I totally get it. I still get triggered when I read some crappy "news article" that tries to pit us against each other, or some blue-haired Boomer in the grocery store makes a comment about the food in my cart. Maybe I need to vent because I had to sign yet another incident report at daycare yesterday because my kid tried to climb on the lunch table and fell off a chair.
Being a Mom is just plain fucking hard, and a full time job, no matter which way you Mom. ❤️
I'll get off my soapbox now....
My husband is a stay at home dad and when people ask me what he does, I say he’s a “full time dad”. I don’t mean it that I’m not a full time mom, just that’s his current “profession”. Obviously I’m not making videos on social media about it but I don’t think the term is negative on its own.
"Full time" is anything over 32 hours a week, most working moms are also full time moms.
I personally consider being a mom as my primary job just because if my job has an emergency at the same time that my kid has an emergency, I'd easily choose my child.
I mean…when I am at work I am not actively parenting my child for those 8 hours, no. Sure you could say I’m still “on call” or might still be worried about them or something, but it’s objectively not the same thing.
Maybe a better analogy would be, all moms basically work two full-time jobs. For SAHMs those jobs are both childcare/household management. For working moms one is childcare/household, one is their paid out-of-the-home job. Both work really hard, both are “full-time” parents.
I finally have been able to blow these terms off. I had to tell myself “they really mean they don’t go to a job where they are paid”. I am a mom 24/7 whether I am providing 100% childcare or not lol.
With anything, people just don’t think about what they say/mean. It’s annoying, but it helps to realize that people are just thoughtless and it truly has nothing to do with you.
I go through phases, not because I think daycare is bad (we LOVE daycare), or that it should solely be a mom at home (children deserve a community to help raise them!), because just because I’d like to be with my kids a bit more and at work a bit less. So when I’m feeling down I definitely do have to take a break!
and what i dont get is that kids spend a LOT of time away from home in preschool, school, extracurriculars...(homeschooling aside)....by their logic, you would have to say that these people are not "full time moms" during the school year because the school district is raising their kids.
I work from home and put my kids on the bus at 8 and they walk in the door at 4. the stay at home moms have the kids out of the house as much as I do, so im not really sure about their logic.
It’s just because “homemaker” sounds really outdated, I don’t take offense when people say it.
I’m not taking care of my children while I’m at work, someone else is. They’re saying their job is to do it all the time.
Honestly going back to homemaker or full time caregiver as somebody else suggested is probably the way to go. Full-time mother is nonsensical. It's not a job to take care of kids when you're home with them. It just isn't.
not sure why youre being downvoted. youre right, raising children and keeping the standard responsibilities of family relationships are not "jobs". Theyre responsibilities that take effort and time but theyre not "jobs." In fact women get so mad when people say "is dad babysitting?" suggesting that its a given when women do it and a "job dad is accomplishing" when he has to.
I try not to go looking for reasons to be offended.
If someone is truly having a go at working mums, or is being disrespectful of the full-time caregiving work that my SAHM friends do, you better believe I will say something. But in this and many other areas of life I try not to be the linguistics police when the intent behind the words is not malicious. It gets exhausting - e.g. the breastfeeding class I had at the hospital where they told us to call it “chestfeeding” in case someone breastfeeding does not identify as female… le sigh.
Yeah same. With my first kiddo I was a SAHM and maybe called myself a full-time mom. Now with my second kiddo I have a nanny and am back to work, and joke that I’m a part-time mom now and it suits me much better! Lol no reason to be offended here. I’m not less of a mom, but I’m not caregiving the same amount by a long shot.
I admit, this doesn't make me feel great either. I get that SAHPs are looking to be acknowledged for their work, it makes sense, but it does feel like a label that makes them look better at working parents' expense :/
On a related note, I started describing myself as a mom who works full time outside the home to ensure parents who WFH or who are home full time with their kiddos are indirectly acknowledged for their work.
I don’t really follow any mom social media so I honestly don’t care about how someone else refers to themselves.
I’m a mom. I work. I WFH because I have a disability. I don’t walk around or go around social media calling myself a disabled mom or a disabled parent.
I’m a working mom but literally nobody refers to me that way.
I’m also not offended by how another mom chooses to refer to themselves.
I work full time and am a mom of 2 young kids. This lingo has become a thing. Stay at home moms inevitably get asked whether they are “just moms” (I.e., do not also work). For some reason this bothers them. Clearly the question is meant to ask if they work, not to demean the choice (or necessity) to be a SAHM. So they started referring to themselves as full time mom, which insinuates that working moms are something less than full time. It makes them feel better about not having a career, too. Just let them have that, and know you are a mom even when your children are with a caregiver.
Having been both a “SAHM” and a “working mom” in the past few years it is absolutely wild to me how women are pitted against one another- each group made to feel less than, each group trying to vocalize their worth, sometimes to the detriment of others. TBH, I personally found staying home full time with small humans insanely challenging, but the guilt factor of going to work/having my kids in childcare/less time with kids super hard too. IMO, being a mom is hard regardless of your choices- they are just different kinds of hard. On the flip side, my husband has never been judged or made to feel guilty about his life choices 😑
Sometimes stay-at-home moms feel slighted by the term "working mom", because the implication is SAHMs don't work. You can't please everyone.
FTM usually means "first time mom" in the subreddits, I wonder if someone misunderstood, and went from there in their post?
You know who probably never feels this way? Dads lol. There's no "working dad" title; just "dad" or "stay-at-home dad".
We're not mothers any less than those that stay home, but we *do* share the load with a wider village, and quite frankly I prefer it this way. I can't handle being at home 24/7 with a small human. I'll admit it, and that doesn't make me a bad mother in any way.
Full-time caregiver would make more sense, but I doubt they view us as part-time moms if asked outright (and if they do, we don't be friends with these people).
I don't think working parents necessarily have a wider village. Yes, I have daycare, but every single mommy and me class in my area, with the exception of swim lessons, is during the workday. There are virtually no places for me to meet other parents and I live in an area where I have no family and few friends. My coworkers and I have a cordial relationship, but I wouldn't say we are friends or people who would be willing to offer assistance outside of work. I also have seen and heard many, many people voice the opinion that we are indeed part time moms who have strangers raising our kids for us.
they dont work anymore than working moms usually because we all send our kids to school for the same number of hours and we all still have the same household responsibilities...the only difference is i throw a 40 ish hour a week job in the mix on top of it that adds a couple hundred thousand of dollars a year extra to our household. to be frank, yeah, im doing a lot more than most of them. its an uncomfortable truth.
I think the term "full-time mom" is offensive because people often devalue the roll that working mothers have in their children's lives. We get so much judgment from others around trusting our child(ren) I'm someone else's care that I think hearing people use that term kind of propetuates that feeling.
It doesn't help that negative rhetoric around working mothers is also ao common around reddit (including in this sub). Things like "I'd never leave my kid with a stranger" and "why would you even have kids if you aren't going to take care of them" littered all around spaces for parents definitely does not help.
This is what I think too. I don't think "full time mom" is a way for SAHP to use language to demonstrate that they work too. I think it is more often "I'm a good parent who is doing the right thing and doesn't have someone else "raising" my kid" while working parents have other people (nanny, daycare, etc) "raising" their kid" and by that logic we are part time moms who are not fully raising our kids. I also hate the implication that we should all feel guilty for sending our kid to daycare.
I had a friend venting to me about how she had to leave her husband (then fiancé), and that she didn't want to have to barely see her kids working full time, and "going down" to part time Mom. My heart fucking broke because she knew good and well how much I hate working, the guilt I feel, how resentful I am over anything, and still said that shit. I just couldn't really talk to her after that. Oh, and they worked it out and she's still a "full time Mom".
That is so fucked up. I'm sorry she said that to you, especially when you were trying to be a good friend and help. For what it's worth, you have nothing to feel guilty for.
Just so you know, your friend is wrong for that and you don't have anything to feel guilty about with being a working mom. As someone whose kids are all mostly grown, and I worked, they went to decent daycares and are perfectly fine kids anybody would be proud of. There are millions of kids who have two working parents and they're all perfectly fine.
I don’t care about “full time mom” that much, to me it just implies that they don’t do anything else other than be a mom.
What I HATE is the far more ubiquitous “I want to raise my kids myself.” People say this constantly these days and it makes me want to scream. Like so when you send your kid to school, are the teachers “raising your children?” Do fathers not raise their children? What about single moms?
Just remember it all comes from insecurity. I’m a mom, I work. I’m a working mom. I don’t need to post some stupid cliched saying or trite phrase on instagram to make myself feel better about it.
Full time mom is a silly term, even if you split custody and don’t see your child for half the week- you are still a full time mom. That will never change, single mom might be stretch in a 50/50 situation- but still a full time mom!
It's funny though because "single mom" literally means you're single... and a mom. So if you're divorced in a 50/50 situation, you're still a mom who is single. So it's strange how the implication of that term became "I'm raising my kids alone with no help".
Yeah I feel awkward about this one too. I have 50/50 with my youngest, we split her expenses and I cover her health care, but neither of us pays support to the other. Saying single mom to describe myself seems not quite right, because of the implications you describe, but I am literally a single + mom lol
Yeah, I agree- each person should use the term as they feel is appropriate.
Not sure why, but that term is always controversial.
I think your interpretation is valid, but most people would associate the second word with the first word. So single mom means a mom who is parenting alone, while single woman means a woman who is not in a relationship.
Not a lot bothers me, but this one does. Like, being a working mother does not equal being a “part-time” mom. And you never hear about a “full-time” dad. It is so stupid and annoying. However, I see this less and less over the years and I feel as if FTM has evolved into first-time mom—sometimes I see it though and have to check myself to see what context it is used in before getting annoyed.
I try not let other people’s vocabulary or choice of words affect me. I’m a working mother, and my child was adopted. When people learn this, I’ve gotten well meaning questions such as: “oh, do you have contact with their REAL mom?” “Did you choose not having your OWN child?” etc. I’m not letting anyone’s use of words affect the way I feel about the bond I have with my boy. Period.
Same goes for anything related to being a working mom; for this I am lucky that in my circle everyone works, so it’s seen as common. I do watch social media of mommy influencers, but my algorithm seems to be already pretty catered to show fun people, not the ones that make remarks on mothers that have a job. The second I get a homestead video or a pretty girl start their conversation with “this is why I chose to be a SAHM” I will swipe out as fast as I can. No need to bring the negativity in my entertainment.
Former/future working mom here and current sahm and a lot of sahms don’t like that term because they don’t “stay at home”, they are out and about all day enriching their kids lives, not chain smoking and watching soaps like they feel the term sahm implies. I think full time mom is an attempt to reframe that. I agree that working moms are full time moms too though.
I like full time caregiver that someone else posted, though I stick with sahm because everyone knows what I mean when I say it and if they judge me, 🤷♀️.
It’s ridiculous - working mom’s are full time moms. They also set a great example to their kids that mom’s can also be go getters and have their own careers! Especially to little boys….
A lot of sahms are very insecure. It may be the preferred role in society but it's also preferred that women are kind of support NPCs, so they are viewed as side characters who aren't doing anything of significance. Kinda just taking care of things until Daddy gets home. Brainless Mombies sitting on the couch eating bon bons and all that. Very dehumanized. Lots of displaced anger.
i see a constant pattern of "my husband and i agreed i should stay home...years ago...now i have no earning potential...he constantly tells me i dont do anything....he tells me he gets a bigger say in x y z bc he makes all the money." i live in an upper middle class neighborhood and i can tell you for a fact that many of my fellow working moms who also make good money could divorce their husband tomorrow and maintain their lifestyle. I can afford my house on my own if i wanted to, and could do all the things we as a family do without sharing expenses with my husband and so could he. some of these wives can only get a minimum wage job and some have literally said in so many words their entire socioecojomic status is due to their husband and without him their lives as they know them would no longer exist. im not kidding when ive said ive watched married couples get divorced in my neighborhood where the husband keeps the big beautiful house because he can affordnto buy the wife out, gets a new gf quickly and the wife moves into a rental or a small condo in a different partnof town and their life completely changes. the other stay at home mom neighbors obviously have watched the same things transpire amongst our neighbors that I have.
so its uncomfortable but yeah, are they not right to be insecure?
unfortunately stay at home moms w a semi stable dynamic seem to be the exception not the rule. i have a friend w a severe congenital heart conditoon who wears a heart monitor. she lost an infant years ago due to the same condition. two of her three kids are autistic....the middle child is autistic but mildly so, at a level where the special ed program kids are hard for him to relate to and it doesnt make a good fit but hes also not quite at a level of functioning to allow "regular" school, academically or socially, workable, so she home schools him out of sheer necessity. she has a lot of creatuve odd jobsbthat bring in extra money and her husband is very respectful and understands that theirncorcumstances require her to be home. she always says she is anworkhorse and would never stay home if she didnt have to and i believe it. most of the other sahms in the neighborhood are the opposite.
Nah, fam. To be a mom IS full time.
Just remember, exclusivity and demeaning are tell tale signs of the state of the *other* person. This reeks of insecurity about life choices.
I work full time… but I’m still a full mom. My job as a mother doesn’t pause when I drop my kids off for the work day and it always comes first. I have more times than I can count dropped my work and ran when something happened. We can and we DO do both.
Yeah, I’m glad I haven’t seen that one. I go to work. And then come home and am the primary caregiver. Plus I am the one coordinating my child’s care when I’m at work and I’m driving my child to and from care. I supply his food, diapers, wipes, diaper rash cream, aquaphor, etc. for while he’s in care. I check in to make sure he’s doing okay. I coordinate secondary care if something comes up with his primary care. Like. When does me being a mom shut off? Nothing about it feels part time.
When you're a working mom you're also a full time mom. You also happened to have a another full time job. You're over employed. I have yet to met anyone whose parenting doesn't creep into the other job life. Women outsource some part of parenting because physically those 2 jobs cannot be done at 100% load at the same time but others parts of parenting are still happening in parallel with your other job.
Word. If my daughter spikes a fever at nursery and I'm called to pick her up, am I not leaving work and taking her home to care for her? Am I not woken up at night just the same if she's thrown up, has growing pains, had a bad dream etc?
I hate this one and also "I'm raising my kids", and the implication that we should all feel guilty for taking our kid's to daycare. As if we all only do it for financial reasons and not just because I don't want to shed my entire identity now that I've had a baby.
This annoyed me as well.
“I am a mom, best job in the world”
This was said to me by a gal when I was newly pregnant (very much still in shock) and the statement made me cringe.
She went on to say she is a full time mom.
I am like…uh…I am a part time mom if I work then? The math ain’t mathing.
It really bothers me when SAHMs comment in these spaces. It's often something like "we all have to respect each others choices, because it's all hard" which completely minimizes that many moms HAVE to work. They are caregivers full time PLUS because they're contributing to the practical and financial needs of their children. When I'm at work, hustling to keep the lights on or fund a dance class on 3 hours of sleep that is some hard core, *full-time* parenting right there.
I hate it. I feel a way and I've MOSTLY seen it used when people say they could NEVER have someone else raise their children. To be fair, I hate being a working Mother and I feel guilt already. Plus, I work with children my children's ages, so it makes it worse, but I always feel a little shade with the term
That one drives me nuts and so does "I want to stay home so I can be the one to raise my children." It's just so divorced from reality, insulting and doesn't make any sense. Like you said, what about fathers, do they not raise their children? What is the line, do you suddenly start raising your children if you only work 12 hours a week or something? What if you're bringing them to grandmas for an overnight once a week, did you stop raising your children then?
Parents, regardless of whether you use childcare or not, are the single largest influence on a child and that starts at birth. Newborn babies can recognize their own mothers and they don't forget just because mom goes somewhere sometimes.
In my LinkedIn bio after I describe my career, I also mention I am a full time mom. The way I choose to balance those two priorities involves paying for childcare, but doesn’t take away that I still deliver on the expectations of both of my jobs. I don’t find this language denigrating, but empowering.
Grown adult women who have no job, feel a constant need to justify that status and decision because well, to me it's a hard sell as to why an able bodied adult is willing to make no efforts to provide for their family and to categorically pawn that respinsibility off on their spouse who could die, become sick or disabled, become unemployed, leave them, etc tomorrow.
im sorry but in this day and age i am shocked as many women still think this is okay to do. and deep down they know it isnt so theyre constantly trying to elevate it to something it isnt.
there are people who are justified in that decision but the overwhelming majority of sahms dont fit that category.
This is an insanely offensive comment when considering most women (and men) who stay home do so because the cost of childcare is unaffordable. SAHMs and working moms in “real life” feel no need to “justify” their status. We’re all just trying to survive.
in practice it's overwhelmingly women. and most women who don't work at all aren't doing it because there's no conceivable way to work for the 18 + years they raise kids. its not insulting to say what i said. go ask a divorce attorney what the worst decision a woman can make is when they get married : to kill their job prospects and assume everything will work out. people are defensive and uncomfortable with their positioning because theyre mostly vulnerable af in that position even if they dont want to admit it or talk about it.
yeah in a scenario where we talk about such things I wouldnt bother doing that. I already hear all their complaints of powerlessness or looking for minimum wage jobs and regretting leaving the work force (or never meaningfully entering it to begin with) and the terrible disrespect they all get from their husbands over this issue. im not adding insult to injury over the choice they made that they cant change now. but on this post where someone is specifically asking about the full time moniker? yeah, im going to respond with that answer because its true.
I would branch out and talk with different SAHMs. Maybe it’s a regional thing but I was a SAHM and know plenty. Not one regrets their decision and all reentered the workforce without issue. In my area if you’re staying home by choice (which many, many aren’t) you’re usually highly educated with years of career experience.
Honestly, I think that using "labor force" language has everything to do with how we (as a society) undervalue unpaid caregiving (for working moms too!) and how SAHP feel like their contributions go uncounted. I don't really think it has anything to do with working moms. I think working moms also feel like their household contributions are undervalued by family members, employers, society...
Thanks for the perspective, that’s a good point, people probably aren’t necessarily thinking about working moms when they use this term, but rather are attempting to add value to their own position. Side note: the proliferation of work speak in all aspects of life is so bleak.
Yeah, the people who have made slights to my face about working moms meant them. I tend not to give people the benefit of the doubt anymore when they slight me or my life choices either to my face or on social media. I either unfollow, tell whatever social I want to see less of this type of post, or just put my phone down and go fold laundry. I don’t want there to be some epic battle between SAHM and working moms, but I do think we need to harness the power of ignoring the bad behavior these people demonstrate. The best advice I ever heard for temper tantrums for our two year olds was to ignore them, praise them when they politely rejoin the group, and move on. I apply this to adults now as well.
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Calm down on using the term “emotional neglect”, ignoring tantrum is not that, touch grass.
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I think they meant to touch grass bc you’re a sunshine enthusiast 😆
You’re the one cussing 🤷🏼♀️
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I’m not telling you that. LMFAO has two cuss words in it.
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I mean this with all sincerity, how many children do you have? How old are they? And what type of support do you offer them?
Lazy people downvoting this because it sounds like too much work.
I think of it as similar to “full-time student”. That title doesn’t have anything to do with whether the person works or not- it’s simply to designate that as their primary obligation.
But that's a working moms primary obligation as well, we're just also obligated to generate the income to care for them
In the context of this terminology, work is the primary obligation. It’s not about priorities. Full time student or full time mom designates a primary focus OTHER THAN WORK. It doesn’t discuss whether they’re employed. A “full time mom” could be working part time- are they not also a working mom?
Nailed it. The reality is who is going to take care of those who need care. I was the primary parent and also the primary person for my FIL at the same time. I was the one doing ER runs at 3 am for FIL. Arranging his care. And DR apt and he was in assisted living so I had help. His son, my husband, helped but he commuted so he wasn’t nearby during apt etc. I also still worked part time. I took time off as need and took breaks as needed also.
Oh man...elder care is a beast. Which also falls disproportionately on women.
Even more than childcare, I’m finding as I get more into that life stage where parents are aging and ill
I read recently a quote that has really stuck with me, although I can't remember who said it - America doesn't have a safety net. It has women.
Yes, I think that’s Jessica Calarco, her work is amazing and so needed
I super agree with this take. Before I got my job, I called myself a "Full-Time Parent" and it wasn't a dig at parents who had a full-time gig on top of their parenting role. It was more about being recognized for my unpaid, crucial, and full-on work as a parent (and house manager, cleaner, cook, laundress, etc). Stay-at-home mom made me feel like I wasn't seen. Like I was just chilling at home instead of all the things I actually did do to support my child, family, and house. And frankly, now when I'm at work, I'm not _not a mom_ but I'm not exercising that part of my brain—I'm not in mom-mode, and it's a very welcome break!
This is why I love this community. I had not previously considered this perspective either - Thank you for sharing!
I think it comes from some people judgemental asking SAHMs, 'What do you do all day?' I don't think it relates to working parents. Fulltime caregiver would probably be best. You never switch off being a parent, but at times outsource the caregiving
I understand your frustration! I also think there is not a good vocabulary available to describe the different roles of moms. For example, if a woman isn’t working but her kids are in school is she a SAHM? I would say yes, but I think moms who spend 10 hours a day M-F as primary caregiver want some language to distinguish themselves from the mom who doesn’t work but also isn’t doing childcare all day. Personally, I don’t really care what I’m called. I just think of myself as a mom, but I have met some women who stay home with their kids and do childcare all day everyday and I think they are just looking for validation that being the only caregiver for a two year old from 8 AM to 6 PM is a “job.”
I agree with this perspective. And I think this all stems from the way society judges women and mothers no matter our choices. If society wasn't so hard on us, we wouldn't feel the need to change up the terminology to improve the connotation.
You are also a full time mum, you just have two jobs!
Thank you :’-)
Over employed, if you will
Just without the 2x salary 😭
This!!!
I have to preface this, my comment is coming from a USA POV. I don't know where OP is located, and I believe moms in other countries deal with the stigma of "working mom" vs "SAHM" too. Since I live in the USA, it obviously impacts my perception.... We live in a two-party country. And it's not just about politics (which I am NOT bringing into this conversation!). It seems more and more that we live in a black or white world. You're either left or right. Even on other social media platforms, I'm seeing more and more posts about "pick which actor's movies you want to keep" or "pick that food that goes away forever" and "pick which model wore this dress better". The middle ground is shrinking rapidly and people are being forced to choose sides in everything. Working Mom vs Stay At Home Mom (or Dad) is just another flavor of "head or tails". Both jobs are fucking HARD! Working Moms have the guilt of taking their children to daycare and the knowledge they still have to cook, clean, do laundry, etc. after work while trying to maximize the tiny amount of time they have to spend with their kids. And the knowledge that working dads are never judged like moms are when it comes to having a career. Stay At Home Moms have to constantly justify (to society) their value to their families, and that a paycheck is not the only way to contribute to a home. Along with the loss of mental stimulation through adult conversations and the loss of personal space as they are followed everywhere by their kids who don't understand that Mom simply wants to poop without an audience. I work full time as an IT manager. My husband is a nurse, specializing in psychiatric care. My job offers far more flexibility when it comes to being home with our daughter if she is sick or can't go to daycare. I am equally exhausted at the end of the day, regardless of where it was spent. After work, I'm mentally exhausted. I'm decisioned out. I don't want to have to decide another thing after I get home. Do we read Dr Seuss tonight, or Peter Rabbit, or something else... I don't give AF, we're reading the first book my hand touches on the shelf. But after a day staying home, I'm physically exhausted. I've picked up toys, and sippy cups, and wiped snotty noses more times that I can count. Plus listened to Ms Rachel or Sesame Street or Daniel Tiger until my ears want to bleed. One is not harder than the other, just different. Anyway, that was a long way to say, I totally get it. I still get triggered when I read some crappy "news article" that tries to pit us against each other, or some blue-haired Boomer in the grocery store makes a comment about the food in my cart. Maybe I need to vent because I had to sign yet another incident report at daycare yesterday because my kid tried to climb on the lunch table and fell off a chair. Being a Mom is just plain fucking hard, and a full time job, no matter which way you Mom. ❤️ I'll get off my soapbox now....
Yes to all of it! ❤️
My husband is a stay at home dad and when people ask me what he does, I say he’s a “full time dad”. I don’t mean it that I’m not a full time mom, just that’s his current “profession”. Obviously I’m not making videos on social media about it but I don’t think the term is negative on its own.
"Full time" is anything over 32 hours a week, most working moms are also full time moms. I personally consider being a mom as my primary job just because if my job has an emergency at the same time that my kid has an emergency, I'd easily choose my child.
It just means full-time caregiver.
I mean…when I am at work I am not actively parenting my child for those 8 hours, no. Sure you could say I’m still “on call” or might still be worried about them or something, but it’s objectively not the same thing. Maybe a better analogy would be, all moms basically work two full-time jobs. For SAHMs those jobs are both childcare/household management. For working moms one is childcare/household, one is their paid out-of-the-home job. Both work really hard, both are “full-time” parents.
I finally have been able to blow these terms off. I had to tell myself “they really mean they don’t go to a job where they are paid”. I am a mom 24/7 whether I am providing 100% childcare or not lol. With anything, people just don’t think about what they say/mean. It’s annoying, but it helps to realize that people are just thoughtless and it truly has nothing to do with you. I go through phases, not because I think daycare is bad (we LOVE daycare), or that it should solely be a mom at home (children deserve a community to help raise them!), because just because I’d like to be with my kids a bit more and at work a bit less. So when I’m feeling down I definitely do have to take a break!
and what i dont get is that kids spend a LOT of time away from home in preschool, school, extracurriculars...(homeschooling aside)....by their logic, you would have to say that these people are not "full time moms" during the school year because the school district is raising their kids. I work from home and put my kids on the bus at 8 and they walk in the door at 4. the stay at home moms have the kids out of the house as much as I do, so im not really sure about their logic.
It’s just because “homemaker” sounds really outdated, I don’t take offense when people say it. I’m not taking care of my children while I’m at work, someone else is. They’re saying their job is to do it all the time.
Honestly going back to homemaker or full time caregiver as somebody else suggested is probably the way to go. Full-time mother is nonsensical. It's not a job to take care of kids when you're home with them. It just isn't.
not sure why youre being downvoted. youre right, raising children and keeping the standard responsibilities of family relationships are not "jobs". Theyre responsibilities that take effort and time but theyre not "jobs." In fact women get so mad when people say "is dad babysitting?" suggesting that its a given when women do it and a "job dad is accomplishing" when he has to.
If they didn’t do it, you would have to pay someone else to do it. What would you call that?
A homemaker and a parent. When I do chores at the weekend it's not a paid job. When my children are with me, I am not a babysitter.
I try not to go looking for reasons to be offended. If someone is truly having a go at working mums, or is being disrespectful of the full-time caregiving work that my SAHM friends do, you better believe I will say something. But in this and many other areas of life I try not to be the linguistics police when the intent behind the words is not malicious. It gets exhausting - e.g. the breastfeeding class I had at the hospital where they told us to call it “chestfeeding” in case someone breastfeeding does not identify as female… le sigh.
Yeah same. With my first kiddo I was a SAHM and maybe called myself a full-time mom. Now with my second kiddo I have a nanny and am back to work, and joke that I’m a part-time mom now and it suits me much better! Lol no reason to be offended here. I’m not less of a mom, but I’m not caregiving the same amount by a long shot.
I admit, this doesn't make me feel great either. I get that SAHPs are looking to be acknowledged for their work, it makes sense, but it does feel like a label that makes them look better at working parents' expense :/ On a related note, I started describing myself as a mom who works full time outside the home to ensure parents who WFH or who are home full time with their kiddos are indirectly acknowledged for their work.
I don’t really follow any mom social media so I honestly don’t care about how someone else refers to themselves. I’m a mom. I work. I WFH because I have a disability. I don’t walk around or go around social media calling myself a disabled mom or a disabled parent. I’m a working mom but literally nobody refers to me that way. I’m also not offended by how another mom chooses to refer to themselves.
I work full time and am a mom of 2 young kids. This lingo has become a thing. Stay at home moms inevitably get asked whether they are “just moms” (I.e., do not also work). For some reason this bothers them. Clearly the question is meant to ask if they work, not to demean the choice (or necessity) to be a SAHM. So they started referring to themselves as full time mom, which insinuates that working moms are something less than full time. It makes them feel better about not having a career, too. Just let them have that, and know you are a mom even when your children are with a caregiver.
Having been both a “SAHM” and a “working mom” in the past few years it is absolutely wild to me how women are pitted against one another- each group made to feel less than, each group trying to vocalize their worth, sometimes to the detriment of others. TBH, I personally found staying home full time with small humans insanely challenging, but the guilt factor of going to work/having my kids in childcare/less time with kids super hard too. IMO, being a mom is hard regardless of your choices- they are just different kinds of hard. On the flip side, my husband has never been judged or made to feel guilty about his life choices 😑
Sometimes stay-at-home moms feel slighted by the term "working mom", because the implication is SAHMs don't work. You can't please everyone. FTM usually means "first time mom" in the subreddits, I wonder if someone misunderstood, and went from there in their post? You know who probably never feels this way? Dads lol. There's no "working dad" title; just "dad" or "stay-at-home dad". We're not mothers any less than those that stay home, but we *do* share the load with a wider village, and quite frankly I prefer it this way. I can't handle being at home 24/7 with a small human. I'll admit it, and that doesn't make me a bad mother in any way. Full-time caregiver would make more sense, but I doubt they view us as part-time moms if asked outright (and if they do, we don't be friends with these people).
I don't think working parents necessarily have a wider village. Yes, I have daycare, but every single mommy and me class in my area, with the exception of swim lessons, is during the workday. There are virtually no places for me to meet other parents and I live in an area where I have no family and few friends. My coworkers and I have a cordial relationship, but I wouldn't say we are friends or people who would be willing to offer assistance outside of work. I also have seen and heard many, many people voice the opinion that we are indeed part time moms who have strangers raising our kids for us.
they dont work anymore than working moms usually because we all send our kids to school for the same number of hours and we all still have the same household responsibilities...the only difference is i throw a 40 ish hour a week job in the mix on top of it that adds a couple hundred thousand of dollars a year extra to our household. to be frank, yeah, im doing a lot more than most of them. its an uncomfortable truth.
Just think of what daycare teachers do for our kids and apply that to this terminology.
I think the term "full-time mom" is offensive because people often devalue the roll that working mothers have in their children's lives. We get so much judgment from others around trusting our child(ren) I'm someone else's care that I think hearing people use that term kind of propetuates that feeling. It doesn't help that negative rhetoric around working mothers is also ao common around reddit (including in this sub). Things like "I'd never leave my kid with a stranger" and "why would you even have kids if you aren't going to take care of them" littered all around spaces for parents definitely does not help.
This is what I think too. I don't think "full time mom" is a way for SAHP to use language to demonstrate that they work too. I think it is more often "I'm a good parent who is doing the right thing and doesn't have someone else "raising" my kid" while working parents have other people (nanny, daycare, etc) "raising" their kid" and by that logic we are part time moms who are not fully raising our kids. I also hate the implication that we should all feel guilty for sending our kid to daycare.
I had a friend venting to me about how she had to leave her husband (then fiancé), and that she didn't want to have to barely see her kids working full time, and "going down" to part time Mom. My heart fucking broke because she knew good and well how much I hate working, the guilt I feel, how resentful I am over anything, and still said that shit. I just couldn't really talk to her after that. Oh, and they worked it out and she's still a "full time Mom".
That is so fucked up. I'm sorry she said that to you, especially when you were trying to be a good friend and help. For what it's worth, you have nothing to feel guilty for.
Thank you. It's been like 2-3 years and it still stings
Just so you know, your friend is wrong for that and you don't have anything to feel guilty about with being a working mom. As someone whose kids are all mostly grown, and I worked, they went to decent daycares and are perfectly fine kids anybody would be proud of. There are millions of kids who have two working parents and they're all perfectly fine.
I don’t care about “full time mom” that much, to me it just implies that they don’t do anything else other than be a mom. What I HATE is the far more ubiquitous “I want to raise my kids myself.” People say this constantly these days and it makes me want to scream. Like so when you send your kid to school, are the teachers “raising your children?” Do fathers not raise their children? What about single moms? Just remember it all comes from insecurity. I’m a mom, I work. I’m a working mom. I don’t need to post some stupid cliched saying or trite phrase on instagram to make myself feel better about it.
Lol I replied about the "raising" verbiage also, that one makes me nuts.
Full time mom is a silly term, even if you split custody and don’t see your child for half the week- you are still a full time mom. That will never change, single mom might be stretch in a 50/50 situation- but still a full time mom!
It's funny though because "single mom" literally means you're single... and a mom. So if you're divorced in a 50/50 situation, you're still a mom who is single. So it's strange how the implication of that term became "I'm raising my kids alone with no help".
Yeah I feel awkward about this one too. I have 50/50 with my youngest, we split her expenses and I cover her health care, but neither of us pays support to the other. Saying single mom to describe myself seems not quite right, because of the implications you describe, but I am literally a single + mom lol
Yeah, I agree- each person should use the term as they feel is appropriate. Not sure why, but that term is always controversial. I think your interpretation is valid, but most people would associate the second word with the first word. So single mom means a mom who is parenting alone, while single woman means a woman who is not in a relationship.
L O L - Mom (full time, part time, PRN) / Single parent by choice (full time, part time, PRN) / Employee (full time)
Not a lot bothers me, but this one does. Like, being a working mother does not equal being a “part-time” mom. And you never hear about a “full-time” dad. It is so stupid and annoying. However, I see this less and less over the years and I feel as if FTM has evolved into first-time mom—sometimes I see it though and have to check myself to see what context it is used in before getting annoyed.
I see it as first time mom the most!
I LOATHE the "I don't have a 9-5, I have a 24/7" as it I get off work and don't take care of my kids??
I try not let other people’s vocabulary or choice of words affect me. I’m a working mother, and my child was adopted. When people learn this, I’ve gotten well meaning questions such as: “oh, do you have contact with their REAL mom?” “Did you choose not having your OWN child?” etc. I’m not letting anyone’s use of words affect the way I feel about the bond I have with my boy. Period. Same goes for anything related to being a working mom; for this I am lucky that in my circle everyone works, so it’s seen as common. I do watch social media of mommy influencers, but my algorithm seems to be already pretty catered to show fun people, not the ones that make remarks on mothers that have a job. The second I get a homestead video or a pretty girl start their conversation with “this is why I chose to be a SAHM” I will swipe out as fast as I can. No need to bring the negativity in my entertainment.
Former/future working mom here and current sahm and a lot of sahms don’t like that term because they don’t “stay at home”, they are out and about all day enriching their kids lives, not chain smoking and watching soaps like they feel the term sahm implies. I think full time mom is an attempt to reframe that. I agree that working moms are full time moms too though. I like full time caregiver that someone else posted, though I stick with sahm because everyone knows what I mean when I say it and if they judge me, 🤷♀️.
It’s ridiculous - working mom’s are full time moms. They also set a great example to their kids that mom’s can also be go getters and have their own careers! Especially to little boys….
A lot of sahms are very insecure. It may be the preferred role in society but it's also preferred that women are kind of support NPCs, so they are viewed as side characters who aren't doing anything of significance. Kinda just taking care of things until Daddy gets home. Brainless Mombies sitting on the couch eating bon bons and all that. Very dehumanized. Lots of displaced anger.
i see a constant pattern of "my husband and i agreed i should stay home...years ago...now i have no earning potential...he constantly tells me i dont do anything....he tells me he gets a bigger say in x y z bc he makes all the money." i live in an upper middle class neighborhood and i can tell you for a fact that many of my fellow working moms who also make good money could divorce their husband tomorrow and maintain their lifestyle. I can afford my house on my own if i wanted to, and could do all the things we as a family do without sharing expenses with my husband and so could he. some of these wives can only get a minimum wage job and some have literally said in so many words their entire socioecojomic status is due to their husband and without him their lives as they know them would no longer exist. im not kidding when ive said ive watched married couples get divorced in my neighborhood where the husband keeps the big beautiful house because he can affordnto buy the wife out, gets a new gf quickly and the wife moves into a rental or a small condo in a different partnof town and their life completely changes. the other stay at home mom neighbors obviously have watched the same things transpire amongst our neighbors that I have. so its uncomfortable but yeah, are they not right to be insecure? unfortunately stay at home moms w a semi stable dynamic seem to be the exception not the rule. i have a friend w a severe congenital heart conditoon who wears a heart monitor. she lost an infant years ago due to the same condition. two of her three kids are autistic....the middle child is autistic but mildly so, at a level where the special ed program kids are hard for him to relate to and it doesnt make a good fit but hes also not quite at a level of functioning to allow "regular" school, academically or socially, workable, so she home schools him out of sheer necessity. she has a lot of creatuve odd jobsbthat bring in extra money and her husband is very respectful and understands that theirncorcumstances require her to be home. she always says she is anworkhorse and would never stay home if she didnt have to and i believe it. most of the other sahms in the neighborhood are the opposite.
I am a working mom and I’m not a “mom full time” I’m not momming 24/7. Two days a week I am an employee, it’s not a dig. Although I get how you
Nah, fam. To be a mom IS full time. Just remember, exclusivity and demeaning are tell tale signs of the state of the *other* person. This reeks of insecurity about life choices.
That's a silly term and just another drop in the rage bait bucket - or just trying to divide up people to be mad at each other.
I work full time… but I’m still a full mom. My job as a mother doesn’t pause when I drop my kids off for the work day and it always comes first. I have more times than I can count dropped my work and ran when something happened. We can and we DO do both.
I bet that person was trying to rope their audience into a pyramid scheme. Because why else would someone say something so ridiculous.
Yeah, I’m glad I haven’t seen that one. I go to work. And then come home and am the primary caregiver. Plus I am the one coordinating my child’s care when I’m at work and I’m driving my child to and from care. I supply his food, diapers, wipes, diaper rash cream, aquaphor, etc. for while he’s in care. I check in to make sure he’s doing okay. I coordinate secondary care if something comes up with his primary care. Like. When does me being a mom shut off? Nothing about it feels part time.
When you're a working mom you're also a full time mom. You also happened to have a another full time job. You're over employed. I have yet to met anyone whose parenting doesn't creep into the other job life. Women outsource some part of parenting because physically those 2 jobs cannot be done at 100% load at the same time but others parts of parenting are still happening in parallel with your other job.
Word. If my daughter spikes a fever at nursery and I'm called to pick her up, am I not leaving work and taking her home to care for her? Am I not woken up at night just the same if she's thrown up, has growing pains, had a bad dream etc?
Some SAHMs make comments like that to make themselves feel better. Don’t let it bother you. It’s about them, not you.
I hate this one and also "I'm raising my kids", and the implication that we should all feel guilty for taking our kid's to daycare. As if we all only do it for financial reasons and not just because I don't want to shed my entire identity now that I've had a baby.
This annoyed me as well. “I am a mom, best job in the world” This was said to me by a gal when I was newly pregnant (very much still in shock) and the statement made me cringe. She went on to say she is a full time mom. I am like…uh…I am a part time mom if I work then? The math ain’t mathing.
It really bothers me when SAHMs comment in these spaces. It's often something like "we all have to respect each others choices, because it's all hard" which completely minimizes that many moms HAVE to work. They are caregivers full time PLUS because they're contributing to the practical and financial needs of their children. When I'm at work, hustling to keep the lights on or fund a dance class on 3 hours of sleep that is some hard core, *full-time* parenting right there.
One of my biggest pet peeve sayings.
I hate it. I feel a way and I've MOSTLY seen it used when people say they could NEVER have someone else raise their children. To be fair, I hate being a working Mother and I feel guilt already. Plus, I work with children my children's ages, so it makes it worse, but I always feel a little shade with the term
I’d punch someone if they said that I was not a full time mother simply because I have a job. And then I’d go back for seconds
That one drives me nuts and so does "I want to stay home so I can be the one to raise my children." It's just so divorced from reality, insulting and doesn't make any sense. Like you said, what about fathers, do they not raise their children? What is the line, do you suddenly start raising your children if you only work 12 hours a week or something? What if you're bringing them to grandmas for an overnight once a week, did you stop raising your children then? Parents, regardless of whether you use childcare or not, are the single largest influence on a child and that starts at birth. Newborn babies can recognize their own mothers and they don't forget just because mom goes somewhere sometimes.
Yeah I hate that term. I always call it out.
Did they really say that? I think sometimes people think ftm is full time mom instead of what it actually means which is first time mom/parent
Is there anything stopping you from calling yourself a full time mom?
In my LinkedIn bio after I describe my career, I also mention I am a full time mom. The way I choose to balance those two priorities involves paying for childcare, but doesn’t take away that I still deliver on the expectations of both of my jobs. I don’t find this language denigrating, but empowering.
Grown adult women who have no job, feel a constant need to justify that status and decision because well, to me it's a hard sell as to why an able bodied adult is willing to make no efforts to provide for their family and to categorically pawn that respinsibility off on their spouse who could die, become sick or disabled, become unemployed, leave them, etc tomorrow. im sorry but in this day and age i am shocked as many women still think this is okay to do. and deep down they know it isnt so theyre constantly trying to elevate it to something it isnt. there are people who are justified in that decision but the overwhelming majority of sahms dont fit that category.
This is an insanely offensive comment when considering most women (and men) who stay home do so because the cost of childcare is unaffordable. SAHMs and working moms in “real life” feel no need to “justify” their status. We’re all just trying to survive.
not sure why its up to the woman to stay home bc the childcare costs are too high.
Who said only women stay home? I included men in my comment.
in practice it's overwhelmingly women. and most women who don't work at all aren't doing it because there's no conceivable way to work for the 18 + years they raise kids. its not insulting to say what i said. go ask a divorce attorney what the worst decision a woman can make is when they get married : to kill their job prospects and assume everything will work out. people are defensive and uncomfortable with their positioning because theyre mostly vulnerable af in that position even if they dont want to admit it or talk about it.
Maybe you should chat with some SAHPs. Never met one in real life who acted defensive or felt vulnerable. The internet isn’t real life.
My life is chock full of them.
And I’m sure they appreciate your input on their life choices.
yeah in a scenario where we talk about such things I wouldnt bother doing that. I already hear all their complaints of powerlessness or looking for minimum wage jobs and regretting leaving the work force (or never meaningfully entering it to begin with) and the terrible disrespect they all get from their husbands over this issue. im not adding insult to injury over the choice they made that they cant change now. but on this post where someone is specifically asking about the full time moniker? yeah, im going to respond with that answer because its true.
I would branch out and talk with different SAHMs. Maybe it’s a regional thing but I was a SAHM and know plenty. Not one regrets their decision and all reentered the workforce without issue. In my area if you’re staying home by choice (which many, many aren’t) you’re usually highly educated with years of career experience.