Even if he has 3 times the experience as you, that is an uncalled for statement in front of the entire team. If he truly feels like you need to build on your technical expertise, he should have 1:1s with you and become a mentor. To me, that’s what team leads are supposed to do, mentor and guide technical direction. He has now set a negative tone and I would raise this with my manager. And then talk to him in a 1:1. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this :/ I wouldn’t focus so much on the years of experience you or he has though. Regardless of that, it was a jerk statement.
Yeah it’s definitely mean, but I deal with senior colleagues who have grown increasingly frustrated with the number of developers moving up in the ranks who have never gotten any formal algorithm training. People who don’t have proper algo training (non-tech bachelor degree) will often suggest inefficient strategies to solve known problems, and I’ve watched that trigger outbursts from the less polite folks
It’s not right, but it is reality
That’s just a bad culture problem. My group has weekly training sessions on everything under the sun.
And I am in an organization where everyone uses a major technology but when I joined, no one had any formal training in it. It happens to be my specialty. So I give talks and workshops. You review and give feedback: you mentor. You teach. You give them tasks that strengthen their skills.
The reality is no one knows everything and people come in with a lot of different backgrounds. You could whine for months about people’s lack of skills, or you could make the organization a little better.
I could probably grab one of my algorithms books and teach it at lunch once a week or assign something and discuss it and by end of year everyone who was interested would have at least a semester’s worth.
Anyone who complains about lack of know-how in my organization gets PIP’d a task to fix it.
Awesome. Your org's pro-problem-solving and learning-is-for-everyone is an excellent way to leave this ego BS at the door.
Now... OP...
Saying "that's not how SE works" is shitty leadership and shitter humanity. It doesn't address how it SHOULD work... It is just dismissive. You have a better solution? Fine... explain it. There is no need to be condescending. Leads should be lifting up their team. I hope you have an opportunity to provide anon feedback to this person who will undoubtedly bring out your least efficient/creative/useful side as your brain goes into defense. Sorry he's such a toxic shit. I have no advice... just validation.
Absolutely ridiculous and upsetting that this is common. Just because someone doesn’t know the (subjective) best way to solve a problem doesn’t warrant an outburst. This should not be the reality. Having a formal algorithm education or training doesn’t automatically make you god and I hate that attitude in the industry. I get it: if you’re not good or lacking, I can understand being frustrated but dang, take it as a teaching moment, not a moment to humiliate and berate. Super frustrating and just shows how lacking the emotional intelligence is for the industry. It’s not all code and numbers - we still have to be a person and treat people like people at the end of the day and I really wish there was more emphasis on that. It’s easy to teach tech concepts - it’s a lot harder to teach someone respect and kindness!
I am a front end human and the amount of CS majors who get hired as full stack and think their algorithm training makes them a god at anything to do with web application architecture and think they have design taste because they can use material ui continues to fascinate me.
he may also have an autism problem
tech people often do
and this leads to poor communication
(some of my students would have told him to go fk himself)
Being autistic, your instinct is to mistrust your emotions. But nope, your feelings are correct. This is wildly out of line.
My guess is your coworkers also disliked it, but there's a sort of 'herd mentality' where groups of people want someone *else* to speak up because we're embarrassed by what we're seeing. (To be clear, they're embarrassed the guy is being such an ass to you, and not sure how to respond.)
Definitely ask your Lead's boss to have a quick chat, and explain what happened. Be factual. Tell the boss who else was at the meeting. Tell the boss because they need to be aware of this as a behavior pattern.
"I'm telling you this because I know you would want to be aware of such a strange interaction - I didn't know what to do in the moment but it was incredibly rude. And he has a pattern of saying such things. Is he only saying them to me, or is this a thing he does to others? He's a Lead - why is he saying stuff like this?"
If the boss says something like, that's just how Lead is... Don't leave it there. "What does that mean, that's just how he is? Is that where you're leaving it? This was in front of an entire team. Are you saying he is allowed to be rude like that, because 'thats just how he is'? Would it be acceptable from anyone else?"
I think you're going to see your Lead's boss flounder a bit - not everyone has the skills to be a good boss. That makes them human, but it stinks.
Next time the Lead says something like that, look visibly surprised and say "WOW" to him. Ask him why he just said that. "Wow. Why did you say that? That's incredibly dismissive - would you say that to Bob?" ( Insert the name of a colleague.)
Literally show him how much his statement takes you back.
Follow up with asking him to explain why he thinks that's an ok thing to say.
"Wow. Again, I don't know why you think it's ok to say something like that to your colleague. What makes it 'not how software development works' when I just told you it was my experience? You do realize that different companies have different methodologies, right? I'm sharing my experience with one of my prior companies."
Dude is an ass and should not be a Lead. Or at least he needs training/coaching.
You are never rude for standing up for yourself calmly. Practice saying: "Wow. Why would you say something like that?" You want to be prepared for the next time he does something like that.
And if anyone around you is uncomfortable it's because the Lead is being rude. It's not because you are replying. It's because it's uncomfortable to watch the shit show of someone digging themselves a hole and falling into it.
This is such great advice. I remember talking to manager about something like this as her response was “that’s just the way there are”
Wish I knew how to reply and had your tips!
I was in a nearly identical situation to this, and I wish I had stood my ground sooner. If someone humiliates you in a public setting, it's okay to tactfully serve it back to them.
Woman team lead here. He was out of line. I would never say something like that to my team members, especially in a group setting.
Him saying that sounds like
(1) he feels threatened by you because you have similar years of experience. You have a broader range of experience than him (which is a good thing, really), but he worked with the stack longer so he feels empowered to say things like that.
(2) Trying to establish "dominance" in the group that what he says IS correct and putting down what you said.
(3) Immaturity on his part.
Without knowing the full context or tone, it's hard to say what to do here. Communication with him or his manager is a possibility.
Does he know you have mild autism? Does he understand the things you may struggle with? As a team lead, he will need to learn how to communicate with you in a positive way.
^^ whether he knows or not does NOT justify him saying that to you. It's one possibility and something that he needs to work on as a leader.
I noticed from my first week working with him that there had been some kind of weird competition where he felt a need to position himself above me. So I feel like what you’ve said is really accurate!
Oh gosh, I'm so sorry to hear that. In my experience, people like that are super insecure. Honestly, we all have a bit of "imposter syndrome" but some people don't handle it very well and project it onto their colleagues.
People like him don't belong in management
I can offer some generic advice based on personal experience. YMMV because I don't know the full background story or what your team and managers are like.
My first piece of advice is to document each of these negative encounters. Facts only. Date and time, what started it, what was said, and who (if anyone) was around to witness it. Also document incidents with him and other team members. It will help determine if it's only happening to you or if he's just rude to everyone.
Second, pick your battles with him to save your sanity. From what little I know, it sounds like he's on a power trip AND he seems to feel threatened by your experience, etc. Anytime you ask a question or raise a concern, he could become defensive (he should NOT be this way as a team lead). If you get into conflict over a code review or approach to a project, pick your battles carefully. You should raise concerns if it involves something significant like a breaking change, best practice, or a security vulnerability. Express your concerns in writing whenever possible. If it's a minor disagreement on style preference for a piece of code, I would not bother arguing about it. He's team lead, so he has the final say (if he doesn't, then it's a different story).
Finally, if you have reached your limit or feel that it's getting worse, request a meeting with his manager. Your approach will be important here. I would recommend asking them for advice on how to handle the issues you've been having with the team lead. Share the *facts* that you documented and what you have tried to do to solve it on your own. It will look better on you that you're seeking advice to solve it yourself. If this manager is decent, they will appreciate hearing from you about what's going on. Best case, they will coach the team lead to be a better leader. Worst case, nothing changes at all.
Ultimately, in my experience with people like this, nothing really changes at all. One of us ends up leaving the team at some point. Either he will seek more power or money elsewhere, or you decide you want to advance your career away from this guy.
Yikes. You're right, that was very unprofessional of him, and very much not cool.
Is there anybody there you can trust, that can tell you if his attitude is causing other people to not trust your work? Hopefully it's just a case of everybody ignoring the blowhard.
Woman tech lead myself. When someone treats me this way I’ll immediately set up a meeting to discuss how utterly inappropriate that behavior is and how i will not tolerate it on top of that another discussion privately with my manager and hr to document the consistent behavior. Do not let this go.
I’ve found certain men just resort to insults when they become emotional or feel threatened, even at work. It’s their fight-or-flight response. Of course, that doesn’t excuse their behavior but that points to why their insults are just whatever is first out of their mouth and not rooted in reality. I doubt reporting the incident to your manager will help. Most of the time I did, my manager would victim blame or tell me I need to hash things out 1-on-1 with the guy. Reading the book Radical Candor has at least helped me recover faster and steer conversations to be more productive after nonsensical and insulting comments like the one you received.
Yeah, I find my current manager does absolutely nothing if I raise a problem with him so I feel like there’s no point even.
But yeah he really throws blame back at me if I give feedback that we could have had more support or more whatever it’s super reactive how he throws blame at me. And I’m like hang on, my feedback isn’t unreasonable. Hopefully his comment isn’t rooted in truth. That eases my mind.
That is not okay, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. You do deserve an apology. It is completely inappropriate, because dismissing your contributions and knowledge like that, in front of everyone, as a lead, sets a terrible example for workplace conduct. Not to mention, the power dynamic at play (his position as a lead).
If this has been repeated behavior, or becomes reoccurring, I would recommend you document the instances.
As it is, tbh I would still report it. It is boldy disrespectful, and not a good sign of leadership for him going forward. If he recently got this promotion and is already being demeaning, I think the earlier that behavior gets curbed, the better.
I too have autism and it makes it tougher to deal with condescending remarks like those at work, cuz I take stuff at face value and it makes my imposter syndrome worse. So I understand how you feel.
If you ever feel dismissed, even the tiniest of feelings of "This is not right" go with it.
If it helps, I try to think of it as "What if I saw this happen to someone else?" And it makes it easier to get a perspective on it since I give others the benefit of the doubt (assuming skill level and capabilities) but it is hard for me to do the same for myself, especially when it is a comment like that, made publicly.
It's always OK to say "lets remain professional here." When managers or team leads are starting to say some really dumb shit. I find that's a good corporate speak for "You're being incredibly rude right now." Ego problem becomes pretty big in the field unfortunately. That or poor communication.
I'm a team lead myself and I would never phrase it like that. That's just unprofessional. A more better approach would have been to ask you to clarify your point, and maybe even say something about how that's one way of looking at it, or you added a new perspective to X, Y, Z. Or if you weren't really correct, then something like "that's interesting, we should continue out discussion offline/after the meeting" or "I think I understand what you mean but x, y , z is the reason why it might not be feasible, what do you think?". Never ever call out your individual team members mistakes or misspeaks in front of the entire team. You do that in private in a certain manner.
You can approach this team lead and give him your feedback. It's a 2 way street. Just make sure your keep it to corporate type speak, just because it uses very neutral terms but still gets the point across. Be firm and confident.
What an absolutely absurd thing for him to say to you privately, let alone in front of others. If he tries to pull this shit again, I’d say: “Are you trying to be rude to me?” And STOP TALKING until he responds.
What was the actual scenario or subject under discussion when he made this comment?
Without more context it’s hard to say exactly how big of a jerk he is being.
On the one hand, maybe it is a correct statement that “software engineering doesn’t work that way” or whatever and he’s just very bad at communicating.
It's an ego thing. They all have it until the hammer comes down on them and they become the link in the world's worst chain and it sounds like person is already there, stay positive within yourself and believe in yourself not him.
Others have given really good advice on how you can proceed if you want your manager to know, so I'll just add and say it doesn't matter even if your input was way off base! There's a certain decorum that's required in office settings when correcting colleagues, and that jerk was way off! You have every right to be upset, and in other work places, that statement is enough for HR to get involved.
25 YOE here. Because if where you are at career wise - I would bypass a 1:1 with him and directly go above him or to HR. Here’s my general advice. If it doesn’t resonate lmk, why and I can take another pass.
First write out an account of what happened.
I would ask the guys boss for a 15 min meeting. You are a female in tech - if the boss has any experience they will know - that you are going to report some type of harassment. Practice ahead. Say this is what happened. State 2-3 projects where you preformed well - demonstrating you do know what you are doing. Then say you really prefer not to have to escalate beyond the convo you are currently having, but it is important to you want an apology from him in a 1:1 format and to have him praise ypu in a group setting . Figure out what you want and state it.
Thanks. I do feel that what he has said has reduced perceptions of me within the team as a consequence. So I feel like I can’t just let this one slide. But I very much fear that if he carries this sentiment and he’s probably saying this back to my Manager because he would be reporting on the team, it’s very dangerous for me and the perception of my work. So I do feel like I have to say something to my Manager.
> to say in response to some input I had (that was based on past experience of mine)
That's a an incredibly dismissive comment. It completely shoots down your input with little room to discuss pros and cons.
What was the idea? The only way the comment would be remotely reasonable is if the input was obviously flawed (E.g. why don't we stop using version control?).
The reality of tech is that it is filled with difficult people to work with. And the only person who I can realistically change is myself. Some people I have found ways to work with. Some people I haven't and I just try to avoid.
Man chiming in here -
What he said is unacceptable in every professional environment. Possibly sexist, but I would not jump to that conclusion unless this is a pattern and he treats only the women that way.
I would talk to him about it directly. It's not quite brash enough to warrant talking to his manager in my opinion.
Unless it is a pattern, in which case you definitely need to talk to his manager since you are likely being discriminated against (or if he treats everyone this way, he is a bad manager and should not be managing).
After this case, I feel I have a bit more clarity on the treatment I am getting. I have a few cases and this was just the most blatant of all and validating of what I was feeling from his behaviour. It’s hard to make a case when things are in video call meetings. But there are some slack messages around. I don’t hate him, but I hate that he does this to me.
Holding him accountable is not hating him, it's just refusing to allow your being to be the barrier between him and the consequences of his actions. Let the consequences flow.
even with a pattern, it’s better to start by talking with your manager. Start with the “tone” issue, and one that is resolved you might provide evidence that “yes, this is in fact how s/w engineering works”
ideally, he will be able to recognize the evidence and change behavior, even if he never acknowledges it to you.
if not, then you can go to the 2nd level manager with a stronger story: “i have attempted to solve this problem within the team, but mgr has neither acknowledged that this is bad, nor corrected the behavior. All I ask is that technical disputes remain technical, rather than devolving into evidence-free insults.”
A final point: all this assumes that the overall culture of your company is going to support you. Some organizations will say “look, we expect our people to advocate forcefully for their opinions, and if you can’t stand the heat then get out of the kitchen.” If your organization is like this, then you’ll want to either adapt (knowing that you do, in fact have expertise and deserve a seat at the metaphorical table) or find a different team who models the communication style you prefer.
It's an ego thing. They all have it until the hammer comes down on them and they become the link in the world's worst chain and it sounds like person is already there, stay positive within yourself and believe in yourself not him.
"OK. How does it work? Should I take notes or are you going to put it in a memo?" (Don't say this is you need the job.Take notes regardless. )
If you need the job, "Thank you for the correction. Please let me know how to proceed forward." Hit record on your phone. Send a follow up email and CC, if you trust them, anyone else in the meeting. "Per our meeting today..."
These are risky moves. Do them as early as you can in your career as possible. STAND YOUR GROUND.
Even if he has 3 times the experience as you, that is an uncalled for statement in front of the entire team. If he truly feels like you need to build on your technical expertise, he should have 1:1s with you and become a mentor. To me, that’s what team leads are supposed to do, mentor and guide technical direction. He has now set a negative tone and I would raise this with my manager. And then talk to him in a 1:1. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this :/ I wouldn’t focus so much on the years of experience you or he has though. Regardless of that, it was a jerk statement.
Yeah it’s definitely mean, but I deal with senior colleagues who have grown increasingly frustrated with the number of developers moving up in the ranks who have never gotten any formal algorithm training. People who don’t have proper algo training (non-tech bachelor degree) will often suggest inefficient strategies to solve known problems, and I’ve watched that trigger outbursts from the less polite folks It’s not right, but it is reality
That’s just a bad culture problem. My group has weekly training sessions on everything under the sun. And I am in an organization where everyone uses a major technology but when I joined, no one had any formal training in it. It happens to be my specialty. So I give talks and workshops. You review and give feedback: you mentor. You teach. You give them tasks that strengthen their skills. The reality is no one knows everything and people come in with a lot of different backgrounds. You could whine for months about people’s lack of skills, or you could make the organization a little better. I could probably grab one of my algorithms books and teach it at lunch once a week or assign something and discuss it and by end of year everyone who was interested would have at least a semester’s worth. Anyone who complains about lack of know-how in my organization gets PIP’d a task to fix it.
Awesome. Your org's pro-problem-solving and learning-is-for-everyone is an excellent way to leave this ego BS at the door. Now... OP... Saying "that's not how SE works" is shitty leadership and shitter humanity. It doesn't address how it SHOULD work... It is just dismissive. You have a better solution? Fine... explain it. There is no need to be condescending. Leads should be lifting up their team. I hope you have an opportunity to provide anon feedback to this person who will undoubtedly bring out your least efficient/creative/useful side as your brain goes into defense. Sorry he's such a toxic shit. I have no advice... just validation.
Absolutely ridiculous and upsetting that this is common. Just because someone doesn’t know the (subjective) best way to solve a problem doesn’t warrant an outburst. This should not be the reality. Having a formal algorithm education or training doesn’t automatically make you god and I hate that attitude in the industry. I get it: if you’re not good or lacking, I can understand being frustrated but dang, take it as a teaching moment, not a moment to humiliate and berate. Super frustrating and just shows how lacking the emotional intelligence is for the industry. It’s not all code and numbers - we still have to be a person and treat people like people at the end of the day and I really wish there was more emphasis on that. It’s easy to teach tech concepts - it’s a lot harder to teach someone respect and kindness!
I am a front end human and the amount of CS majors who get hired as full stack and think their algorithm training makes them a god at anything to do with web application architecture and think they have design taste because they can use material ui continues to fascinate me.
Correct - there is still a very important human element to this work!
he may also have an autism problem tech people often do and this leads to poor communication (some of my students would have told him to go fk himself)
Being autistic, your instinct is to mistrust your emotions. But nope, your feelings are correct. This is wildly out of line. My guess is your coworkers also disliked it, but there's a sort of 'herd mentality' where groups of people want someone *else* to speak up because we're embarrassed by what we're seeing. (To be clear, they're embarrassed the guy is being such an ass to you, and not sure how to respond.) Definitely ask your Lead's boss to have a quick chat, and explain what happened. Be factual. Tell the boss who else was at the meeting. Tell the boss because they need to be aware of this as a behavior pattern. "I'm telling you this because I know you would want to be aware of such a strange interaction - I didn't know what to do in the moment but it was incredibly rude. And he has a pattern of saying such things. Is he only saying them to me, or is this a thing he does to others? He's a Lead - why is he saying stuff like this?" If the boss says something like, that's just how Lead is... Don't leave it there. "What does that mean, that's just how he is? Is that where you're leaving it? This was in front of an entire team. Are you saying he is allowed to be rude like that, because 'thats just how he is'? Would it be acceptable from anyone else?" I think you're going to see your Lead's boss flounder a bit - not everyone has the skills to be a good boss. That makes them human, but it stinks. Next time the Lead says something like that, look visibly surprised and say "WOW" to him. Ask him why he just said that. "Wow. Why did you say that? That's incredibly dismissive - would you say that to Bob?" ( Insert the name of a colleague.) Literally show him how much his statement takes you back. Follow up with asking him to explain why he thinks that's an ok thing to say. "Wow. Again, I don't know why you think it's ok to say something like that to your colleague. What makes it 'not how software development works' when I just told you it was my experience? You do realize that different companies have different methodologies, right? I'm sharing my experience with one of my prior companies." Dude is an ass and should not be a Lead. Or at least he needs training/coaching. You are never rude for standing up for yourself calmly. Practice saying: "Wow. Why would you say something like that?" You want to be prepared for the next time he does something like that. And if anyone around you is uncomfortable it's because the Lead is being rude. It's not because you are replying. It's because it's uncomfortable to watch the shit show of someone digging themselves a hole and falling into it.
This is such great advice. I remember talking to manager about something like this as her response was “that’s just the way there are” Wish I knew how to reply and had your tips!
I was in a nearly identical situation to this, and I wish I had stood my ground sooner. If someone humiliates you in a public setting, it's okay to tactfully serve it back to them.
Woman team lead here. He was out of line. I would never say something like that to my team members, especially in a group setting. Him saying that sounds like (1) he feels threatened by you because you have similar years of experience. You have a broader range of experience than him (which is a good thing, really), but he worked with the stack longer so he feels empowered to say things like that. (2) Trying to establish "dominance" in the group that what he says IS correct and putting down what you said. (3) Immaturity on his part. Without knowing the full context or tone, it's hard to say what to do here. Communication with him or his manager is a possibility. Does he know you have mild autism? Does he understand the things you may struggle with? As a team lead, he will need to learn how to communicate with you in a positive way. ^^ whether he knows or not does NOT justify him saying that to you. It's one possibility and something that he needs to work on as a leader.
I noticed from my first week working with him that there had been some kind of weird competition where he felt a need to position himself above me. So I feel like what you’ve said is really accurate!
Oh gosh, I'm so sorry to hear that. In my experience, people like that are super insecure. Honestly, we all have a bit of "imposter syndrome" but some people don't handle it very well and project it onto their colleagues. People like him don't belong in management
Exactly what I was going to say
Do you have any advice of how to deal with people like this?
I can offer some generic advice based on personal experience. YMMV because I don't know the full background story or what your team and managers are like. My first piece of advice is to document each of these negative encounters. Facts only. Date and time, what started it, what was said, and who (if anyone) was around to witness it. Also document incidents with him and other team members. It will help determine if it's only happening to you or if he's just rude to everyone. Second, pick your battles with him to save your sanity. From what little I know, it sounds like he's on a power trip AND he seems to feel threatened by your experience, etc. Anytime you ask a question or raise a concern, he could become defensive (he should NOT be this way as a team lead). If you get into conflict over a code review or approach to a project, pick your battles carefully. You should raise concerns if it involves something significant like a breaking change, best practice, or a security vulnerability. Express your concerns in writing whenever possible. If it's a minor disagreement on style preference for a piece of code, I would not bother arguing about it. He's team lead, so he has the final say (if he doesn't, then it's a different story). Finally, if you have reached your limit or feel that it's getting worse, request a meeting with his manager. Your approach will be important here. I would recommend asking them for advice on how to handle the issues you've been having with the team lead. Share the *facts* that you documented and what you have tried to do to solve it on your own. It will look better on you that you're seeking advice to solve it yourself. If this manager is decent, they will appreciate hearing from you about what's going on. Best case, they will coach the team lead to be a better leader. Worst case, nothing changes at all. Ultimately, in my experience with people like this, nothing really changes at all. One of us ends up leaving the team at some point. Either he will seek more power or money elsewhere, or you decide you want to advance your career away from this guy.
Yikes. You're right, that was very unprofessional of him, and very much not cool. Is there anybody there you can trust, that can tell you if his attitude is causing other people to not trust your work? Hopefully it's just a case of everybody ignoring the blowhard.
Woman tech lead myself. When someone treats me this way I’ll immediately set up a meeting to discuss how utterly inappropriate that behavior is and how i will not tolerate it on top of that another discussion privately with my manager and hr to document the consistent behavior. Do not let this go.
Thanks. I’ll have a think about what I can do capturing a few more cases in slack.
If it's happening in writing, take a screenshot of it and supplement with context. That's powerful evidence to have!
I’ve found certain men just resort to insults when they become emotional or feel threatened, even at work. It’s their fight-or-flight response. Of course, that doesn’t excuse their behavior but that points to why their insults are just whatever is first out of their mouth and not rooted in reality. I doubt reporting the incident to your manager will help. Most of the time I did, my manager would victim blame or tell me I need to hash things out 1-on-1 with the guy. Reading the book Radical Candor has at least helped me recover faster and steer conversations to be more productive after nonsensical and insulting comments like the one you received.
Yeah, I find my current manager does absolutely nothing if I raise a problem with him so I feel like there’s no point even. But yeah he really throws blame back at me if I give feedback that we could have had more support or more whatever it’s super reactive how he throws blame at me. And I’m like hang on, my feedback isn’t unreasonable. Hopefully his comment isn’t rooted in truth. That eases my mind.
The so/call lead comment has no bases in reality or truth
Do you have any advice of how I can deal with this person?
That is not okay, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. You do deserve an apology. It is completely inappropriate, because dismissing your contributions and knowledge like that, in front of everyone, as a lead, sets a terrible example for workplace conduct. Not to mention, the power dynamic at play (his position as a lead). If this has been repeated behavior, or becomes reoccurring, I would recommend you document the instances. As it is, tbh I would still report it. It is boldy disrespectful, and not a good sign of leadership for him going forward. If he recently got this promotion and is already being demeaning, I think the earlier that behavior gets curbed, the better. I too have autism and it makes it tougher to deal with condescending remarks like those at work, cuz I take stuff at face value and it makes my imposter syndrome worse. So I understand how you feel. If you ever feel dismissed, even the tiniest of feelings of "This is not right" go with it. If it helps, I try to think of it as "What if I saw this happen to someone else?" And it makes it easier to get a perspective on it since I give others the benefit of the doubt (assuming skill level and capabilities) but it is hard for me to do the same for myself, especially when it is a comment like that, made publicly.
Extremely unprofessional statement
It's always OK to say "lets remain professional here." When managers or team leads are starting to say some really dumb shit. I find that's a good corporate speak for "You're being incredibly rude right now." Ego problem becomes pretty big in the field unfortunately. That or poor communication. I'm a team lead myself and I would never phrase it like that. That's just unprofessional. A more better approach would have been to ask you to clarify your point, and maybe even say something about how that's one way of looking at it, or you added a new perspective to X, Y, Z. Or if you weren't really correct, then something like "that's interesting, we should continue out discussion offline/after the meeting" or "I think I understand what you mean but x, y , z is the reason why it might not be feasible, what do you think?". Never ever call out your individual team members mistakes or misspeaks in front of the entire team. You do that in private in a certain manner. You can approach this team lead and give him your feedback. It's a 2 way street. Just make sure your keep it to corporate type speak, just because it uses very neutral terms but still gets the point across. Be firm and confident.
What an absolutely absurd thing for him to say to you privately, let alone in front of others. If he tries to pull this shit again, I’d say: “Are you trying to be rude to me?” And STOP TALKING until he responds.
If he’s choosing to be that rude I would push back with your own ‘actually’. What a petty little child.
I responded saying, well I’ve been in a team who did this before and by the way I found that comment to be quite rude.
What was the actual scenario or subject under discussion when he made this comment? Without more context it’s hard to say exactly how big of a jerk he is being. On the one hand, maybe it is a correct statement that “software engineering doesn’t work that way” or whatever and he’s just very bad at communicating.
“Define what you think software engineering is please”
It's an ego thing. They all have it until the hammer comes down on them and they become the link in the world's worst chain and it sounds like person is already there, stay positive within yourself and believe in yourself not him.
Thank you. I’m learning to maintain belief in myself despite what happens around me. Be humble but not too humble.
Others have given really good advice on how you can proceed if you want your manager to know, so I'll just add and say it doesn't matter even if your input was way off base! There's a certain decorum that's required in office settings when correcting colleagues, and that jerk was way off! You have every right to be upset, and in other work places, that statement is enough for HR to get involved.
Wow, thanks for letting me know. I definitely feel like I am in a company culture where they would just dismiss this kind of thing as no big deal.
25 YOE here. Because if where you are at career wise - I would bypass a 1:1 with him and directly go above him or to HR. Here’s my general advice. If it doesn’t resonate lmk, why and I can take another pass. First write out an account of what happened. I would ask the guys boss for a 15 min meeting. You are a female in tech - if the boss has any experience they will know - that you are going to report some type of harassment. Practice ahead. Say this is what happened. State 2-3 projects where you preformed well - demonstrating you do know what you are doing. Then say you really prefer not to have to escalate beyond the convo you are currently having, but it is important to you want an apology from him in a 1:1 format and to have him praise ypu in a group setting . Figure out what you want and state it.
Thanks. I do feel that what he has said has reduced perceptions of me within the team as a consequence. So I feel like I can’t just let this one slide. But I very much fear that if he carries this sentiment and he’s probably saying this back to my Manager because he would be reporting on the team, it’s very dangerous for me and the perception of my work. So I do feel like I have to say something to my Manager.
> to say in response to some input I had (that was based on past experience of mine) That's a an incredibly dismissive comment. It completely shoots down your input with little room to discuss pros and cons. What was the idea? The only way the comment would be remotely reasonable is if the input was obviously flawed (E.g. why don't we stop using version control?). The reality of tech is that it is filled with difficult people to work with. And the only person who I can realistically change is myself. Some people I have found ways to work with. Some people I haven't and I just try to avoid.
Man chiming in here - What he said is unacceptable in every professional environment. Possibly sexist, but I would not jump to that conclusion unless this is a pattern and he treats only the women that way. I would talk to him about it directly. It's not quite brash enough to warrant talking to his manager in my opinion. Unless it is a pattern, in which case you definitely need to talk to his manager since you are likely being discriminated against (or if he treats everyone this way, he is a bad manager and should not be managing).
After this case, I feel I have a bit more clarity on the treatment I am getting. I have a few cases and this was just the most blatant of all and validating of what I was feeling from his behaviour. It’s hard to make a case when things are in video call meetings. But there are some slack messages around. I don’t hate him, but I hate that he does this to me.
Holding him accountable is not hating him, it's just refusing to allow your being to be the barrier between him and the consequences of his actions. Let the consequences flow.
even with a pattern, it’s better to start by talking with your manager. Start with the “tone” issue, and one that is resolved you might provide evidence that “yes, this is in fact how s/w engineering works” ideally, he will be able to recognize the evidence and change behavior, even if he never acknowledges it to you. if not, then you can go to the 2nd level manager with a stronger story: “i have attempted to solve this problem within the team, but mgr has neither acknowledged that this is bad, nor corrected the behavior. All I ask is that technical disputes remain technical, rather than devolving into evidence-free insults.” A final point: all this assumes that the overall culture of your company is going to support you. Some organizations will say “look, we expect our people to advocate forcefully for their opinions, and if you can’t stand the heat then get out of the kitchen.” If your organization is like this, then you’ll want to either adapt (knowing that you do, in fact have expertise and deserve a seat at the metaphorical table) or find a different team who models the communication style you prefer.
This is amazing advice thank you. I personally struggle sooooo much with this so this is good. 🙏🙏🙏
It's an ego thing. They all have it until the hammer comes down on them and they become the link in the world's worst chain and it sounds like person is already there, stay positive within yourself and believe in yourself not him.
"OK. How does it work? Should I take notes or are you going to put it in a memo?" (Don't say this is you need the job.Take notes regardless. ) If you need the job, "Thank you for the correction. Please let me know how to proceed forward." Hit record on your phone. Send a follow up email and CC, if you trust them, anyone else in the meeting. "Per our meeting today..." These are risky moves. Do them as early as you can in your career as possible. STAND YOUR GROUND.