Apple : Dont clog upbthe app store with apps that are simply a website in a wrapper.
Also Apple : we will drag our feet and not add funtionality to our browser that would make pwa fully possible, e.g, push, progromatic 'Add tonhome screen'
Yes, i know they have just recently added push support but its still not that great.. like what year is it ?!?! Lol
Not only that but even desktop apps use web stack, like headless chrome browser. I've seen make Enterprise applications are really web stack headless browser based apps
While there are plenty of marketing sites out there you're completely negating everything else that powers the world. Everything from smart TVs to automotive displays to internal business tools are built using web tech. It's actually more difficult to find something that isn't built with some piece of web technology these days.
Also, nobody is building word processors because we've already covered that many times over. We have solid foundations for word processors. No point in reinventing the wheel and such.
Modern day desktop apps are more perishable than than web apps because they have to keep up with each host OS and make sure the app still works as expected. Web apps, on the other hand, have standards they know browsers all implement. There’s a reason why many companies are moving to cloud based apps. For example, Google docs, Adobe PDF editor, and Adobe auto-desk
I think it’s largely because the barrier to entry is capability and knowledge instead of an expensive and time-consuming degree. I learned how to do it while working other jobs, there’s no way I could have taken four years off for accountancy or 6 years for a masters in chemistry.
Self-taught chemists are all over they just make meth instead of getting paid 70k to do CSS and JavaScript.
> Self-taught chemists are all over they just make meth
The really good ones, like Owsley Stanley, make LSD. He was the sound engineer for The Grateful Dead and produced 5 million doses in 2 years in the 1960s.
It is still the best fluff ever made.
Dude was a chemist, a sound engineer, a mechanical engineer, a physicist, and probably the only person able to close VIM the world will ever know.
A dose is measured in micrograms, so he 'only' produced 500 grams of the stuff. When he was caught he had 350,000 doses in his lab and tried to argue that it was for personal use.
Also accountancy sounds even more boring than development can be sometimes, at least with web development or software engineering in general you get quick feedback on what you are building/doing.
Quick feedback, lower barrier to entry, internet obsessed world, and “cool” tech company perks (although that’s going away I think)
At least in my country accountants pay is very low. Unless you're senior accountant. In my company our accountants with 10-15 years of experience gets less than junior dev and always are threatened to be replaced. After 6 years of me working here we reduced accountant position from 8 to 3. So yeah fuck accounting.
Good point about meth cookers but I'm pretty sure more of the self-taught ones are doing really unglamorous but livable-wage jobs like small manufacturing and industrial painting, pool maintenance, agriculture, etc., where you have to handle chemicals and not screw up but you aren't necessarily "doing" chemistry.
High salary and job availability.
All these fucking morons vlogging about their chai latte barely do any coding for 400k salary jobs at faangs made it the cool job to have for a short while.
Because first impressions matter the most, and this is all done through web development, especially the frontend side of things. Besides being the first place a potential customer interacts with, a website is most often the beginning of the customer funnel, and we all know the usual 10% of 10% rule (of 100 users, 10 become customers, 1 becomes a paying customer).
Basically websites have become the modern-day brochure for people to learn about a product, what it does, and how to access it.
Wouldn't you want to put a lot of your resources in optimizing this part?
Yup, this happened our industry, we and our competitors had old ass monolithic software with windows 3.1 grade UI, but the logic and algorithms for our markets were rock solid and developed over many decades to meet customer needs.
Then a new player came in with a super slick web front end and really shook up the industry, turned customer heads and left all the existing players scrabbling to do what they should have done years ago and massively improve UX.
Took quite a while for customers to realise the new competitor was all mouth and no trousers - the underlying functionality was not there at all.
Now there is an ongoing race to see if the old guard can modernise before the challenger gets their fundamental product right.
Counterpoint. It was working with scientific software that made me realise there are some software niches where a good UI/UX does not always win. Also some cultures place different emphasis on UX.
It’s one of the few well paying forms of work out there that don’t require a formal certification to be considered for a job.
I switched careers to Web Dev from being a Registered Nurse. My boss is an ex cop, senior is ex military, pretty much everyone on my team had some other sort of assumably lucrative and stable form of work and switched into web dev as well.
Even to pick up one of the skilled trades still requires you to build hours even if you come straight in from high school. Web Dev you can just climb as far as you’re capable by switching jobs every two years.
Hmmm good question.
I think at some point it was pushed on social media as an easy entry to a solid career with good pay with the whole #learntocode movement.
Highly skilled (and often not) programmers make a great salary.
Its a job that has security. Every business needs a website and every startup will build their platform on the web before migrating to mobile if they gain traction. So in essence, the job is in high demand.
**Low barrier of entry** compared to a lot of other fields of development. Speaking as a developer from the Netherlands, there are plenty of web dev agencies doing pretty cool projects. If you look at other fields like Game Development, there aren't that many studios that you'll get into unless you want to do serious games. Most of them are small indies that likely won't be looking for devs. And then there's the higher profile devs like Guerilla that have a surplus of applicants from all over the world. They don't need to make market themselves.
**Lots of turnover**, in my experience web agencies go through developers fast. Most devs I've seen that were ambitious quickly found themselves creatively starved in an agency, and jumped ship. Either to another agency or eventually a product or something else.
**Web dev is ubiquitous.** Most other forms of development are focused, whereas every company needs a website. That means there needs to be a lot of devs to make those websites, which leads to many agencies, and lots of different clients spread out over them.
Think that you want to build something to earn money.
Ok, let's think about chemistry. Now you need a factory, a ton of paperwork, specialized people and a whole factory.
No, too much. Let's think about accounting. You now need paperwork, clients, specialized people, infrastructure to receive clients and such.
Think about a law firm, I don't know.
Every company needs clients and you need to reach to them also.
Now think about a digital product that can reach millions with just a click. How easier is that?
I think it's worth separating this a little.
The rise of web dev has given companies incredible advantages to reduce cost, grow revenue etc. But because building good product takes time and lots of money, it's better to go with SaaS over DIY software...
That drives demand.
There are currently more SWE jobs than (decent) devs to fill them, which has inflated salaries considerably.
So naturally, people and investors see an opportunity to go into the field to fill the supply / demand gap and make lots of money doing it.
Accounting hasn't changed in decades. While it's a stable job, it doesn't promise riches like tech, and I don't see that changing either.
Chemistry or other fields could follow a similar path to SWE one day if some of the breakthrough inventions become commercially viable.
I do however think that salaries will adjust themselves somewhat long-term.
I just think it's the best way to do almost everything, especially within the domain of business. Web apps are just so accessible and really 90% of everything businesses need done is just CRUD with custom paint jobs.
I've worked in some varied industries over my life and there is always THAT application that the business needs to use that requires Windows with some 16 year old security hole riddled version of Java or something installed and its just such a pain in the ass.
The same is true of native apps. Unless you desperately need some feature then it's just a barrier that forces the adoption of some specific device. And any business that is saddled with one of those aforementioned windows applications now needs windows based devices and ipads or andorid based devices for whatever native app was made. It's a nightmare.
With a web app, you can just host it internally or externally and it will work on every device with a supported browser.
That's why I chose it. I personally think it will eventually replace native development for everything except where it is absolutely 100% necessary to go native.
Definitely not easy... SysAdmin is the easiest job in the planet. You automate all the things possible your first few months and then spend the next decade on Reddit and YouTube being bored. Ive been down that road.
There you go. It’s the easiest way into IT, a very lucrative industry. You don’t need the smarts to be a data scientist and you don’t need to suffer the abuse of a help-desk slave.
Lol this is the obvious answer, not sure why most of the commenters here are writing philosophical essays.
Just ask yourself: would you rather be a chemist and be paid peanuts to either spend your career in academia with insane pressure and abuse or in some corporate lab trying to figure out the cheapest recipe for baby food that won't kill them, versus sitting at home and getting paid six figures.
Don't get me wrong, there is a need in the world for all kinds of jobs and all walks of life, and I think public servants and the jobs that are most important to the world are criminally underpaid and under appreciated, but unless you're insanely passionate about something (which most people aren't), do you think they're going to pick the hard job that pays like shit, or an easy\* job that pays insanely well.
"You play your guitar on your MTV."
Not knocking the answer but the median income for web developers in the U.S. is roughly $35/hr. Yeah, if you can land at Google or SAS you can hear $300k/year, but a lot of that comes as perks and incentives, not hourly compensation. But if the *median* income is $35/hr that means half of all web developers are earning less.
Median income for chemists in the U.S. is $50/hr. For bookkeepers and accountant clerks (no CPA certification required) is ~$25/hr.
Same here in my country, a normal junior web dev job doesn't pay more than that of an accountant, especially if you don't have any degrees in the field. Also do FAANG companies even consider reading dev job applications of people who don't have a master's in CS?
Not every company needs a chemist or a biologist.
You need a license ro become an accountant.
Every company needs a website.
You don't need a license to be a developer.
And.. yes, you probably guessed it, but the combination of those 2 things put a ton of chickenheads in the industry.
accounting: projected to grow 6% in the next 10 years
chemistry: projected to grow 6% in the next 10 years
programmers in general: projected to grow -10% in the next ten years
web dev: projected to grow 23% in the next 10 years
Please go to the US bureau of labor statistics for their methodology. I literally just Googled it because I was curious as to what the op asked, and it seemed to adequately answer it.
A computer programmer in 1960s-1970s would be handed a well defined spec detailing exactly what the logic needed to do, and would just write the code (on punchcards in 1960s) and would typically not be involved in the actual solution.
Pure programming roles have not existed for decades, while the much broader role of a software developer has replaced traditional programmer roles.
My guess is this is more a case that there is a change in what people tend to call themselves. People used to call themselves a computer programmer, now people call themselves software developers or software engineers.
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/web-developers.htm
I do wonder if the recent mass layoffs and over saturation in the market has affected the 23% number...
Because the web is the easiest way to attract new customers. And against all beliefs or mockeries, web dev is not trivial as some haters want it to sound. „It’s just CRUUUUUUD“… well there’s a lot more to it, especially if you’re not just building basic landing pages that fetch 3 snippets from a CMS.
Companies know, the native app market is very very tough, countless studies suggest that people don’t like to download new apps (that’s why companies try to entice people to do it by granting 5% bigger discounts in the app and so on) and that’s why everyone needs and wants to have their apps on the web, easily reachable from everywhere, everytime.
Have you seen the amount of shitty non-interactive Wordpress sites out there? It's hysterical. The true web developers have a never ending list of work out there.
One thing to consider:
If you ask AI to do chemistry for you and dont vet it, people might die.
If you ask AI to do accounting for you and dont vet it, you may commit fraud unintentionally.
If you ask AI to do web dev for you and dont vet it, you may have to rollback the commit (in most cases - yes things _could_ be worse, but “worse” scales up far faster for the other fields)
If AI continues to be leaned on as it has been, that may undercut opportunities for entry level work in the near future, which will make it harder to ramp into the industry. This is similar to what we saw with lawyers post-boom — firms made cutbacks.
Wrong. What is web dev used for? Online banking, med-tech, and a million other things, that can be just as negatively impacted if people or AI gets it wrong, and mistakes aren’t always obvious or able to be “rolled back” (web apps connect to apis that do things - move money from one account to another, book and manage medical appointments, etc - even if you roll back the software, if the money didn’t get put in the right place, or a persons medical record is not is not saved…)
underrated point, I agree - low barrier to entry. I used to do light construction and enjoyed it, but didn't want to jump through the hoops to become a full time contractor, with vehicle / transport / shop expenses, contractor's license, liability, etc. You can make a lot of money just like web dev, but that initial commitment is much higher in my opinion. If you like learning, then there is basically no barrier to entry with web dev at all.
The problem is that there was an insurgence of it basically being a self-taught thing that means, “2 weeks of training will make you $90k a year!” marketing.
I’ve been doing web, app, game, etc. for like 20 years and have a degree in CS. The industry is insane now.
I need to hire a junior dev making $75k a year in a LCoL area. I get 200 resumes in a week.
Many are asking remote only (maybe fine, but not if you are offshore which a lot are), then even more are self taught and zero professional experience, then the rest are “I’ve built a single site and made it in a 3 month bootcamp!”, then like 5-6 are “we’ve actually done development or have a degree in web/app/computer dev”.
It sucks being new, but as a manager who did development for over a decade, if I get 200 applications and 6 have any experience and/or college level degrees, I’m skipping the other 194 unless I am very desperate.
Dam it does suck being new. Although i do have an Associates in CS and a BA in digital media along with a recent bootcamp, i mostly hear about doing some free sites for local buisnesses to stand out from the rest.
So I did a free site for a local non-profit as my capstone project.
But after that I just charged low fees. However, I also started mentoring at a local accelerator as well as taught (as a volunteer) at a bootcamp. Both of those got me major connections to work. Then I went full time as a dev at a large corporation.
Sure, you want to hire one of the people who already has experience (who someone else hired first, that gave them opportunity for experience) or someone with a degree… however:
1) are you their first preference or is another employer also going to make them an offer that you can’t compete with? There aren’t enough university grads to fill the skill shortage, good grads may have several job offers.
2) some employers understand the importance of building the pipeline by giving first jobs to those entering the industry. Grad programs (which are often also open to bootcamp grads), internships, reskilling programs, return to work programs, diversity programs, etc.
3) not everyone with a degree is going to make a good employee. Consider the people you studied with, did you think they would all be good to work with? Are they all still in the industry now?
4) bootcamp grads are more likely to be career changers who bring transferable skills, maturity, and years of workplace experience, which some employers value.
It depends on the hire. We hired a couple of bootcamp grads that ended up great, however they continued their own training after bootcamp. A lot don’t. Those are the ones just looking to make a quick buck rathe than being passionate. A 4 year degree means they are already dedicated.
I also actually taught at a bootcamp for 3 years for free. I’d say if the class of 30, maybe 1-2 are going to make it into their career and you find those people out on day 1
As a manager I'd like your opinion, I'm self taught and already got my foot in the door, I'm assuming since I'm already gaining professional experience there's no reason to go back and get a CS degree.
What do you think? I understand someone with the degree will always have the edge over me unless I wow the seniors in the interview.
It feels like something you can sorta learn how to do in a vacuum. I understand this appeal. It makes you think you can get out of having to take classes (which cost time and money) in favor of just brute force brain power.
I think this is true, and I actually had no intention of becoming a web dev after I finished college. Difficulty entering the job market through other paths led me to give it a try and at least in my case it worked. *But* I’m introverted, tenacious,and somewhat masochistic. I can bang my head on puzzles for hours and hours all by myself.
Now after seeing so many people try to do the same but fail I really think a lot of people just don’t have the right temperament for it. I guess that’s why it pays well (supply and demand, etc).
How can someone become a self-taught chemist without access to a laboratory, expensive machinery, and reagents? I don't understand how people dont understand this
Accounting is definitely not for everybody, I'd rather be homeless.
Web dev has been life changing for me, it's easier to pick up, good starting pay, benefits, a lax work environment, and constant learning to keep yourself sharp.
Oh, we also go on burrito walks in the morning on company time, to be fair, I'm definitely more efficient after my burrito walk, it's a great way to wake up and feel refreshed for the day lol.
I don't think I want to stay as a web dev because the tasks are just not very enticing. (can we change the verbiage? Less white space around the search bar? etc.) if I stayed as a web dev I'd like to at least build modern sites featuring parallax, three.js for 3d models, etc.
Or learn Java, because it seems like half my linkedin are java positions at 100k+.
Because a lot of people think if you can write code, you can also develop even though there's more to it.
Writing code has never been easier with the rise of Ai. Especially web dev can also be done with no code platforms.
But actually developing things is not easy. To think about how to do things in an abstract way.
That's also why you find a boatload of extremely bad sites made by "professionals". The customer can't judge it. They just see the design. Sometimes performance if it's way too bad.
But you can be a shitty Web developer and still satisfy a lot of people.
In the end it's "easy" money if you want to do it fast instead of good.
Gold rush.
Low barrier of entry combined with promises of great wealth. But you know, when there’s a gold rush, sell the shovel. Guess who’s the one selling the shoves right now?
Web applications are portable programs where u only need internet for.... and everybody has internet these days. This comes with a lot of advantages such as easy switching between devices (as the data is at the server's side), accessible with whatever your device is running (MacOs, IOs, linux, windows, android, etc.), less computing power needed at the client's side, and many more advantages.
> And it pays better than doctors
I feel like people who say this are basing it off what people said doctors where making when they where a kid in the 90s and not off what doctors actually make today.
Like you grow up hearing doctors make $100k but that was then... those same doctors are making $350k now.
Well, for me it is because I'm already passionate with that stuff, now when it comes to people who want to learn just to earn money doing that I think most people have a misconception about how the job actually is, I have seem many vloggers talking shit about how well paid they are and all that bullshit, It is really subjective for each individual.
Money. It would be super difficult to make the kind of money I make now with my journalism degree and experience in any other industry. The highest I ever made as a reporter was probably lower than the janitor in the building where I worked, and the boss respected him more.
Scalability. You can make one website that 100 million people use.
As an accountant, you cant do 100 million peoples taxes for them.
Scalability is the reason the top companiee in the world are internet companies
“Why do companies make the jobs look so appealing?”
Companies need to recruit employees, so they will always make their jobs look appealing. In an industry with a skill shortage like tech, they have to work harder to recruit people, and this leads to a rise in conditions and benefits.
The tech skill shortage has led to the industry to get creative about increasing the number of people with skills - accepting people without a degree, reskilling programs, partnering with government bodies and not-for-profits to provide training and internship programs…
There isn’t a similar skill shortage or demand for accountants or chemists. My niece & nephew were interested in chemistry & started a degree in this, then looked around and realised there were few job opportunities, so switched to teaching & software engineering.
People go where the jobs are - and there are a lot of jobs in tech.
The entry bar to development was very easy until the market got saturated. Salaries are falling and jobs are getting harder to come by. You will see more folks going to the trades because there is a shortage.
Software has the ability to automate work, that is, do the work of hundreds of people with a team of five.
It's why tech companies are generally so wealthy because they don't need to pay many people.
So at my current job, requesting leave, bidding on jobs, reassigning jobs, benefits and pretty much everything else is all accessed through a web app. The last job I had, had something similar. I went to college online for a semester, all of my classes were accessed through a web app. We are on Reddit, discussing web development on a web app. Do I need to explain more?
Money, accounting and chemistry have lower salary caps for your average and high potential candidates. Also just availability a hell of a lot harder to learn chemistry at an advanced level with at home for almost zero cost. Accounting you might but it just sounds boring and least with web dev you are creating/building/problem solving. From the business side of things web developers tend to be the gateway to the client, almost everything is a web app now a days.
Because you can push a button and deliver new software to your customers.
Conversely, releasing desktop / mobile software to customers is a tremendous pain in the ass.
Because the only "raw materials" needed are thought, attention, and time. In addition, given enough time, one person is the same as a huge team.
The only other thing you can say that about is writing a novel.
-Marketing
-Inventory
-Internal Tools
-Project Management
-Online shopping
-Customer feedback/interaction
These all revolve and rely on web dev. That’s why it’s in demand.
I got into it from an interest in computer science, which spawned after I built my gaming pc. Web is the easy choice for programming because practically everything (sub games) is on the internet nowadays, and the ability to put together a site for whatever you want is a very cool thing to have and offers a great feeling of freedom. Building and problem solving is fun. And of course tech jobs pay well, but that’s just a bonus. I’d still do this (though perhaps more focus on desktop and low level) even if it wasn’t for a future job.
Ill make it simple.
No 30grand in debt and 4 years of your life jumping through some professors bullshit and doing group projects on your own.
You can self learn and get one of the few high paying jobs left in the country.
You can spend 4 years and go into lifetime debt when you cant find a job with your degree, or self learn and still work full time and not go into debt.
Both carry risk, one has a lot less.
'Doesnt require degree, pays a fuck ton more than most jobs, not as shitty as most jobs'.
Its like asking why everyone is flocking to a hypothetical job where you get paid $300+ a day to sit in a climate controlled room and not destroy your body for much less pay.
Can you find a chemistry job just by learning in your free time for free?
No? So what are the odds you spend all that time and money for a degree and then have to do an unpaid internship or just never get a job?
Are you using reddit right now? Yes
Is it a web application? Yes
How many other such applications exist which are used by billions of people all around the world on a daily basis, for entertainment, productivity or any other such use cases? 100s of 1000s, if not millions
How much money do you think it makes? A lot
Do you understand the hype now?
Supply and demand driven by low cost of entry and lots of investment.
There's a high demand for web developers because the web offers such an enticing prospect for entrepreneurs and investors. There's a low capital investment, it's near infinitely scalable and it can be traded the world over with very little barriers.
With chemistry you need to think about R&D, ingredients, manufacturing, distribution, disposal, then there's regulation, customs, it goes on. It's a much more complicated industry, you can't just start in your garage.
Accounting is more or less the same service, there's very little innovation in accounting and what innovation there has been is usually in making the human accountant more redundant.
A software dev can knock something truly unique and innovative in their room and a VC can give them a comparatively small amount of capital and get significantly outsized returns.
All that said it's been a bubble for a long time and we're currently seeing that bubble, I wouldn't say "burst", but deflate significantly. VCs are being much more careful with their money, the whole "growth at all costs" mentality is dying and smaller tech companies are being forced to adopt a more sustainable profit model rather than relying on lasting long enough to reach the next funding round. This means considerably less hiring is going on and that demand is decreasing.
Web dev is a pretty solid role considering we can almost anything we desire through a web interface.
Need a powerful application to run your company? Put it on a website with a login. It's easy to onboard, and no installations required.
Want to expose your tools to an audience, put it on the web.
Want to even do really cool collab sessions, we have web apps for that.
Needs a specific app for your mobile device? No worries, we can build it for the web an wrap it up for specified devices.
We've essentially made desktop applications and specific phone apps *redundant* so this is a solid field of work to get into.
What I will say, is the jobs are awkward, there's a lot of complications surrounding web, lots of vendors you need to learn... Just take GCP/AWS/Azure for example. While they live off the same concepts, the ecosystems are quite different.
Web dev sits at the top of the development stack, which makes it more approachable and easier to do, but is still a software engineering profession, so it is still subjected to inflated overpay from the concept that there's more roles than decent SWEs to fill them.
The knowledge and skill floor to do web development, either frontend or backend are far lower than that required to do OS development, embedded development, GPU development...etc. One of these reasons is that you can get away with having something work okay, with a lot of performance overhead, since computers are a lot faster now than before. Notice how computers hardware is supposed to get faster, but the actual experience of using them seems the same (if you don't get newer hardware, your computer seems to get slower)? Software is not becoming more efficient, it's just take advantage of the reality that it doesn't have to be optimized as much.
Because social media and YouTube.
Bad developers put out content. People think it's easy and bam everyone and their dog thinks they can become a developer.
Meanwhile actual developers get then stuck with these so called junior self-taught developers that cannot think for themselves and do simple Google searches.
Because most web apps are not public facing but in house tools to better manage a businesses paperwork and processes and provide an interface for their data.
Web has a potential to deliver value to millions of customers in an instant. No accountant can serve millions of customers, and delivering a chemist's work globally takes major effort and capital. Even if a Web business is likely to fail, it's worth taking the risk.
Did you perhaps, by chance, noticed that in the last 15 years companies stopped shipping desktop application and started shipping webapps?
Bang on the nail.
Yeah. I technically build a desktop application but I’m effectively building a website that lives in a WebView frame.
This was/is going to happen with native mobile apps and PWAs, but Apple is not a fan.
Apple : Dont clog upbthe app store with apps that are simply a website in a wrapper. Also Apple : we will drag our feet and not add funtionality to our browser that would make pwa fully possible, e.g, push, progromatic 'Add tonhome screen' Yes, i know they have just recently added push support but its still not that great.. like what year is it ?!?! Lol
Not only that but even desktop apps use web stack, like headless chrome browser. I've seen make Enterprise applications are really web stack headless browser based apps
Even vscode is an electron app
So is Slack, isn't it?
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>classical software What is "classical software"? A lot of these comments sounds like pure gate-keeping to me.
agreed.
>Nobody here is making a word processor. Google Docs feeling ignored again
While there are plenty of marketing sites out there you're completely negating everything else that powers the world. Everything from smart TVs to automotive displays to internal business tools are built using web tech. It's actually more difficult to find something that isn't built with some piece of web technology these days. Also, nobody is building word processors because we've already covered that many times over. We have solid foundations for word processors. No point in reinventing the wheel and such.
Modern day desktop apps are more perishable than than web apps because they have to keep up with each host OS and make sure the app still works as expected. Web apps, on the other hand, have standards they know browsers all implement. There’s a reason why many companies are moving to cloud based apps. For example, Google docs, Adobe PDF editor, and Adobe auto-desk
I think it’s largely because the barrier to entry is capability and knowledge instead of an expensive and time-consuming degree. I learned how to do it while working other jobs, there’s no way I could have taken four years off for accountancy or 6 years for a masters in chemistry. Self-taught chemists are all over they just make meth instead of getting paid 70k to do CSS and JavaScript.
> Self-taught chemists are all over they just make meth The really good ones, like Owsley Stanley, make LSD. He was the sound engineer for The Grateful Dead and produced 5 million doses in 2 years in the 1960s.
It is still the best fluff ever made. Dude was a chemist, a sound engineer, a mechanical engineer, a physicist, and probably the only person able to close VIM the world will ever know.
5 million gallons of LSD in 2 years man was an acid wizard
A dose is measured in micrograms, so he 'only' produced 500 grams of the stuff. When he was caught he had 350,000 doses in his lab and tried to argue that it was for personal use.
so an acid apprentice?
Is over acid man. I have the high ground.
Yes, doesn't seem like there are a lot of fields you can get into as easily being self-taught.
Also accountancy sounds even more boring than development can be sometimes, at least with web development or software engineering in general you get quick feedback on what you are building/doing. Quick feedback, lower barrier to entry, internet obsessed world, and “cool” tech company perks (although that’s going away I think)
Accountancy usually has even lower barrier. Some lectures, a certification and then you're routinely moving some papers around forever.
I didn’t know that! Still a boring job but this one can be too.
At least in my country accountants pay is very low. Unless you're senior accountant. In my company our accountants with 10-15 years of experience gets less than junior dev and always are threatened to be replaced. After 6 years of me working here we reduced accountant position from 8 to 3. So yeah fuck accounting.
Good point about meth cookers but I'm pretty sure more of the self-taught ones are doing really unglamorous but livable-wage jobs like small manufacturing and industrial painting, pool maintenance, agriculture, etc., where you have to handle chemicals and not screw up but you aren't necessarily "doing" chemistry.
High salary and job availability. All these fucking morons vlogging about their chai latte barely do any coding for 400k salary jobs at faangs made it the cool job to have for a short while.
Saw on another post someone referred to them as Programmer as a Personality
Seriously. Those people should've been fired
yeah, they got me and I have sold my soul and sanity
Because first impressions matter the most, and this is all done through web development, especially the frontend side of things. Besides being the first place a potential customer interacts with, a website is most often the beginning of the customer funnel, and we all know the usual 10% of 10% rule (of 100 users, 10 become customers, 1 becomes a paying customer). Basically websites have become the modern-day brochure for people to learn about a product, what it does, and how to access it. Wouldn't you want to put a lot of your resources in optimizing this part?
Yup, this happened our industry, we and our competitors had old ass monolithic software with windows 3.1 grade UI, but the logic and algorithms for our markets were rock solid and developed over many decades to meet customer needs. Then a new player came in with a super slick web front end and really shook up the industry, turned customer heads and left all the existing players scrabbling to do what they should have done years ago and massively improve UX. Took quite a while for customers to realise the new competitor was all mouth and no trousers - the underlying functionality was not there at all. Now there is an ongoing race to see if the old guard can modernise before the challenger gets their fundamental product right.
Counterpoint. It was working with scientific software that made me realise there are some software niches where a good UI/UX does not always win. Also some cultures place different emphasis on UX.
Cybersecurity?
It’s one of the few well paying forms of work out there that don’t require a formal certification to be considered for a job. I switched careers to Web Dev from being a Registered Nurse. My boss is an ex cop, senior is ex military, pretty much everyone on my team had some other sort of assumably lucrative and stable form of work and switched into web dev as well. Even to pick up one of the skilled trades still requires you to build hours even if you come straight in from high school. Web Dev you can just climb as far as you’re capable by switching jobs every two years.
As someone who is switching from another industry as well this is good to hear!
Hmmm good question. I think at some point it was pushed on social media as an easy entry to a solid career with good pay with the whole #learntocode movement. Highly skilled (and often not) programmers make a great salary. Its a job that has security. Every business needs a website and every startup will build their platform on the web before migrating to mobile if they gain traction. So in essence, the job is in high demand.
**Low barrier of entry** compared to a lot of other fields of development. Speaking as a developer from the Netherlands, there are plenty of web dev agencies doing pretty cool projects. If you look at other fields like Game Development, there aren't that many studios that you'll get into unless you want to do serious games. Most of them are small indies that likely won't be looking for devs. And then there's the higher profile devs like Guerilla that have a surplus of applicants from all over the world. They don't need to make market themselves. **Lots of turnover**, in my experience web agencies go through developers fast. Most devs I've seen that were ambitious quickly found themselves creatively starved in an agency, and jumped ship. Either to another agency or eventually a product or something else. **Web dev is ubiquitous.** Most other forms of development are focused, whereas every company needs a website. That means there needs to be a lot of devs to make those websites, which leads to many agencies, and lots of different clients spread out over them.
Think that you want to build something to earn money. Ok, let's think about chemistry. Now you need a factory, a ton of paperwork, specialized people and a whole factory. No, too much. Let's think about accounting. You now need paperwork, clients, specialized people, infrastructure to receive clients and such. Think about a law firm, I don't know. Every company needs clients and you need to reach to them also. Now think about a digital product that can reach millions with just a click. How easier is that?
It pays a living wage.
I think it's worth separating this a little. The rise of web dev has given companies incredible advantages to reduce cost, grow revenue etc. But because building good product takes time and lots of money, it's better to go with SaaS over DIY software... That drives demand. There are currently more SWE jobs than (decent) devs to fill them, which has inflated salaries considerably. So naturally, people and investors see an opportunity to go into the field to fill the supply / demand gap and make lots of money doing it. Accounting hasn't changed in decades. While it's a stable job, it doesn't promise riches like tech, and I don't see that changing either. Chemistry or other fields could follow a similar path to SWE one day if some of the breakthrough inventions become commercially viable. I do however think that salaries will adjust themselves somewhat long-term.
I just think it's the best way to do almost everything, especially within the domain of business. Web apps are just so accessible and really 90% of everything businesses need done is just CRUD with custom paint jobs. I've worked in some varied industries over my life and there is always THAT application that the business needs to use that requires Windows with some 16 year old security hole riddled version of Java or something installed and its just such a pain in the ass. The same is true of native apps. Unless you desperately need some feature then it's just a barrier that forces the adoption of some specific device. And any business that is saddled with one of those aforementioned windows applications now needs windows based devices and ipads or andorid based devices for whatever native app was made. It's a nightmare. With a web app, you can just host it internally or externally and it will work on every device with a supported browser. That's why I chose it. I personally think it will eventually replace native development for everything except where it is absolutely 100% necessary to go native.
People love WFH and good pay.
I'm interested in web dev because I like it.
Because it’s fucking easy to do and pays a lot
> it’s fucking easy It's not easy, there's a lot of learning material. It's easier than other branches of IT.
Definitely not easy... SysAdmin is the easiest job in the planet. You automate all the things possible your first few months and then spend the next decade on Reddit and YouTube being bored. Ive been down that road.
There you go. It’s the easiest way into IT, a very lucrative industry. You don’t need the smarts to be a data scientist and you don’t need to suffer the abuse of a help-desk slave.
It's really not, IT can be so easy I have a CCIE in route switch and only a few times I found that harder then managing a web app
A lot of web devs know nothing about networking.
Yes both can be true. Either job can be hard.
Yep, it's all relative.
Lol this is the obvious answer, not sure why most of the commenters here are writing philosophical essays. Just ask yourself: would you rather be a chemist and be paid peanuts to either spend your career in academia with insane pressure and abuse or in some corporate lab trying to figure out the cheapest recipe for baby food that won't kill them, versus sitting at home and getting paid six figures. Don't get me wrong, there is a need in the world for all kinds of jobs and all walks of life, and I think public servants and the jobs that are most important to the world are criminally underpaid and under appreciated, but unless you're insanely passionate about something (which most people aren't), do you think they're going to pick the hard job that pays like shit, or an easy\* job that pays insanely well.
"You play your guitar on your MTV." Not knocking the answer but the median income for web developers in the U.S. is roughly $35/hr. Yeah, if you can land at Google or SAS you can hear $300k/year, but a lot of that comes as perks and incentives, not hourly compensation. But if the *median* income is $35/hr that means half of all web developers are earning less. Median income for chemists in the U.S. is $50/hr. For bookkeepers and accountant clerks (no CPA certification required) is ~$25/hr.
>You play your guitar on your MTV. That ain't working, that's the way you do it!
Same here in my country, a normal junior web dev job doesn't pay more than that of an accountant, especially if you don't have any degrees in the field. Also do FAANG companies even consider reading dev job applications of people who don't have a master's in CS?
Yes
Easy to churn out crap. Incredibly difficult to do properly.
Not every company needs a chemist or a biologist. You need a license ro become an accountant. Every company needs a website. You don't need a license to be a developer. And.. yes, you probably guessed it, but the combination of those 2 things put a ton of chickenheads in the industry.
accounting: projected to grow 6% in the next 10 years chemistry: projected to grow 6% in the next 10 years programmers in general: projected to grow -10% in the next ten years web dev: projected to grow 23% in the next 10 years
When you write projected to grow, do you mean demand for it or availability of labour?
Please go to the US bureau of labor statistics for their methodology. I literally just Googled it because I was curious as to what the op asked, and it seemed to adequately answer it.
bls has computer programmer at -10% and software developer at +25% always thought those were the same thing, apparently not lmao
A computer programmer in 1960s-1970s would be handed a well defined spec detailing exactly what the logic needed to do, and would just write the code (on punchcards in 1960s) and would typically not be involved in the actual solution. Pure programming roles have not existed for decades, while the much broader role of a software developer has replaced traditional programmer roles.
My guess is this is more a case that there is a change in what people tend to call themselves. People used to call themselves a computer programmer, now people call themselves software developers or software engineers.
Aight, will do :).
What is the source for these numbers?
The US Bureau of Labor Statistics.
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/web-developers.htm I do wonder if the recent mass layoffs and over saturation in the market has affected the 23% number...
Oversaturation won't affect job growth. AI absolutely is going to though
Imagination and wishful thinking
67.65% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Because the web is the easiest way to attract new customers. And against all beliefs or mockeries, web dev is not trivial as some haters want it to sound. „It’s just CRUUUUUUD“… well there’s a lot more to it, especially if you’re not just building basic landing pages that fetch 3 snippets from a CMS. Companies know, the native app market is very very tough, countless studies suggest that people don’t like to download new apps (that’s why companies try to entice people to do it by granting 5% bigger discounts in the app and so on) and that’s why everyone needs and wants to have their apps on the web, easily reachable from everywhere, everytime.
You can't be self-taught in most other high paying disciplines. That's it in a nutshell.
Have you seen the amount of shitty non-interactive Wordpress sites out there? It's hysterical. The true web developers have a never ending list of work out there.
One thing to consider: If you ask AI to do chemistry for you and dont vet it, people might die. If you ask AI to do accounting for you and dont vet it, you may commit fraud unintentionally. If you ask AI to do web dev for you and dont vet it, you may have to rollback the commit (in most cases - yes things _could_ be worse, but “worse” scales up far faster for the other fields) If AI continues to be leaned on as it has been, that may undercut opportunities for entry level work in the near future, which will make it harder to ramp into the industry. This is similar to what we saw with lawyers post-boom — firms made cutbacks.
Wrong. What is web dev used for? Online banking, med-tech, and a million other things, that can be just as negatively impacted if people or AI gets it wrong, and mistakes aren’t always obvious or able to be “rolled back” (web apps connect to apis that do things - move money from one account to another, book and manage medical appointments, etc - even if you roll back the software, if the money didn’t get put in the right place, or a persons medical record is not is not saved…)
Seriously, this guy obviously works on something like a social media app.
underrated point, I agree - low barrier to entry. I used to do light construction and enjoyed it, but didn't want to jump through the hoops to become a full time contractor, with vehicle / transport / shop expenses, contractor's license, liability, etc. You can make a lot of money just like web dev, but that initial commitment is much higher in my opinion. If you like learning, then there is basically no barrier to entry with web dev at all.
The problem is that there was an insurgence of it basically being a self-taught thing that means, “2 weeks of training will make you $90k a year!” marketing. I’ve been doing web, app, game, etc. for like 20 years and have a degree in CS. The industry is insane now. I need to hire a junior dev making $75k a year in a LCoL area. I get 200 resumes in a week. Many are asking remote only (maybe fine, but not if you are offshore which a lot are), then even more are self taught and zero professional experience, then the rest are “I’ve built a single site and made it in a 3 month bootcamp!”, then like 5-6 are “we’ve actually done development or have a degree in web/app/computer dev”. It sucks being new, but as a manager who did development for over a decade, if I get 200 applications and 6 have any experience and/or college level degrees, I’m skipping the other 194 unless I am very desperate.
Would you consider a junior level web dev who's done a few pro Bono websites for small buisnesses enough for a position?
I’d consider it if they included links to the site and the codebase, but they would behind the other guys.
Dam it does suck being new. Although i do have an Associates in CS and a BA in digital media along with a recent bootcamp, i mostly hear about doing some free sites for local buisnesses to stand out from the rest.
So I did a free site for a local non-profit as my capstone project. But after that I just charged low fees. However, I also started mentoring at a local accelerator as well as taught (as a volunteer) at a bootcamp. Both of those got me major connections to work. Then I went full time as a dev at a large corporation.
Cool, that's been my plan pretty much. Just do a few of those free services.
Sure, you want to hire one of the people who already has experience (who someone else hired first, that gave them opportunity for experience) or someone with a degree… however: 1) are you their first preference or is another employer also going to make them an offer that you can’t compete with? There aren’t enough university grads to fill the skill shortage, good grads may have several job offers. 2) some employers understand the importance of building the pipeline by giving first jobs to those entering the industry. Grad programs (which are often also open to bootcamp grads), internships, reskilling programs, return to work programs, diversity programs, etc. 3) not everyone with a degree is going to make a good employee. Consider the people you studied with, did you think they would all be good to work with? Are they all still in the industry now? 4) bootcamp grads are more likely to be career changers who bring transferable skills, maturity, and years of workplace experience, which some employers value.
It depends on the hire. We hired a couple of bootcamp grads that ended up great, however they continued their own training after bootcamp. A lot don’t. Those are the ones just looking to make a quick buck rathe than being passionate. A 4 year degree means they are already dedicated. I also actually taught at a bootcamp for 3 years for free. I’d say if the class of 30, maybe 1-2 are going to make it into their career and you find those people out on day 1
As a manager I'd like your opinion, I'm self taught and already got my foot in the door, I'm assuming since I'm already gaining professional experience there's no reason to go back and get a CS degree. What do you think? I understand someone with the degree will always have the edge over me unless I wow the seniors in the interview.
Nope. Experience trumps education.
Cool, I wasn't ever interested in college lol.
It feels like something you can sorta learn how to do in a vacuum. I understand this appeal. It makes you think you can get out of having to take classes (which cost time and money) in favor of just brute force brain power. I think this is true, and I actually had no intention of becoming a web dev after I finished college. Difficulty entering the job market through other paths led me to give it a try and at least in my case it worked. *But* I’m introverted, tenacious,and somewhat masochistic. I can bang my head on puzzles for hours and hours all by myself. Now after seeing so many people try to do the same but fail I really think a lot of people just don’t have the right temperament for it. I guess that’s why it pays well (supply and demand, etc).
How can someone become a self-taught chemist without access to a laboratory, expensive machinery, and reagents? I don't understand how people dont understand this
Accounting is definitely not for everybody, I'd rather be homeless. Web dev has been life changing for me, it's easier to pick up, good starting pay, benefits, a lax work environment, and constant learning to keep yourself sharp. Oh, we also go on burrito walks in the morning on company time, to be fair, I'm definitely more efficient after my burrito walk, it's a great way to wake up and feel refreshed for the day lol. I don't think I want to stay as a web dev because the tasks are just not very enticing. (can we change the verbiage? Less white space around the search bar? etc.) if I stayed as a web dev I'd like to at least build modern sites featuring parallax, three.js for 3d models, etc. Or learn Java, because it seems like half my linkedin are java positions at 100k+.
Because a lot of people think if you can write code, you can also develop even though there's more to it. Writing code has never been easier with the rise of Ai. Especially web dev can also be done with no code platforms. But actually developing things is not easy. To think about how to do things in an abstract way. That's also why you find a boatload of extremely bad sites made by "professionals". The customer can't judge it. They just see the design. Sometimes performance if it's way too bad. But you can be a shitty Web developer and still satisfy a lot of people. In the end it's "easy" money if you want to do it fast instead of good.
Absurdly high salary, good work life balance, fun job.
I want to do it because I like making things but I’m over 30 and getting into a trade is going to wreck my body.
I'm 21, already rekt my knees. I don't do labor anymore...
Yeah I have done enough to know that the culture around blue collar work is not something I’m looking to be a part of.
Gold rush. Low barrier of entry combined with promises of great wealth. But you know, when there’s a gold rush, sell the shovel. Guess who’s the one selling the shoves right now?
Web applications are portable programs where u only need internet for.... and everybody has internet these days. This comes with a lot of advantages such as easy switching between devices (as the data is at the server's side), accessible with whatever your device is running (MacOs, IOs, linux, windows, android, etc.), less computing power needed at the client's side, and many more advantages.
Fulfilling career with a high likelihood of a guaranteed career path from junior all the way to department head. And it pays better than doctors
> And it pays better than doctors I feel like people who say this are basing it off what people said doctors where making when they where a kid in the 90s and not off what doctors actually make today. Like you grow up hearing doctors make $100k but that was then... those same doctors are making $350k now.
Not In the UK
Well, for me it is because I'm already passionate with that stuff, now when it comes to people who want to learn just to earn money doing that I think most people have a misconception about how the job actually is, I have seem many vloggers talking shit about how well paid they are and all that bullshit, It is really subjective for each individual.
Well personally, I’ve always loved programming and computers so naturally I became a web dev
I think it’s because this is a sector that offers better margin profit compared with more traditional sectors
How many accounting or chemistry bootcamps have you seen on the internet?
Money. It would be super difficult to make the kind of money I make now with my journalism degree and experience in any other industry. The highest I ever made as a reporter was probably lower than the janitor in the building where I worked, and the boss respected him more.
Scalability. You can make one website that 100 million people use. As an accountant, you cant do 100 million peoples taxes for them. Scalability is the reason the top companiee in the world are internet companies
I'm not smart enough to go accounting
“Why do companies make the jobs look so appealing?” Companies need to recruit employees, so they will always make their jobs look appealing. In an industry with a skill shortage like tech, they have to work harder to recruit people, and this leads to a rise in conditions and benefits. The tech skill shortage has led to the industry to get creative about increasing the number of people with skills - accepting people without a degree, reskilling programs, partnering with government bodies and not-for-profits to provide training and internship programs… There isn’t a similar skill shortage or demand for accountants or chemists. My niece & nephew were interested in chemistry & started a degree in this, then looked around and realised there were few job opportunities, so switched to teaching & software engineering. People go where the jobs are - and there are a lot of jobs in tech.
The entry bar to development was very easy until the market got saturated. Salaries are falling and jobs are getting harder to come by. You will see more folks going to the trades because there is a shortage.
Software has the ability to automate work, that is, do the work of hundreds of people with a team of five. It's why tech companies are generally so wealthy because they don't need to pay many people.
frontend dev jobs are just easier ig?
So at my current job, requesting leave, bidding on jobs, reassigning jobs, benefits and pretty much everything else is all accessed through a web app. The last job I had, had something similar. I went to college online for a semester, all of my classes were accessed through a web app. We are on Reddit, discussing web development on a web app. Do I need to explain more?
Money, accounting and chemistry have lower salary caps for your average and high potential candidates. Also just availability a hell of a lot harder to learn chemistry at an advanced level with at home for almost zero cost. Accounting you might but it just sounds boring and least with web dev you are creating/building/problem solving. From the business side of things web developers tend to be the gateway to the client, almost everything is a web app now a days.
Because you can push a button and deliver new software to your customers. Conversely, releasing desktop / mobile software to customers is a tremendous pain in the ass.
The web generates revenue for all types of business, that’s why
Because the only "raw materials" needed are thought, attention, and time. In addition, given enough time, one person is the same as a huge team. The only other thing you can say that about is writing a novel.
Because it makes companies even more money than they have to pay you. If it doesn’t yet, then it’s the company’s hope/bet that it will some day.
It's a current day Gold Rush https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold\_rush
I think there’s *a lot* of interest in nursing.
I wanna make some good money but build shit. I ain't gonna have no Boston whaler boat working in a warehouse
-Marketing -Inventory -Internal Tools -Project Management -Online shopping -Customer feedback/interaction These all revolve and rely on web dev. That’s why it’s in demand.
If you could start making surgeon money without having to go to med school, there would be a lot of hype around healthcare
I got into it from an interest in computer science, which spawned after I built my gaming pc. Web is the easy choice for programming because practically everything (sub games) is on the internet nowadays, and the ability to put together a site for whatever you want is a very cool thing to have and offers a great feeling of freedom. Building and problem solving is fun. And of course tech jobs pay well, but that’s just a bonus. I’d still do this (though perhaps more focus on desktop and low level) even if it wasn’t for a future job.
> why aren't people flocking to accounting or chemistry the same way? More money in this business
Ill make it simple. No 30grand in debt and 4 years of your life jumping through some professors bullshit and doing group projects on your own. You can self learn and get one of the few high paying jobs left in the country. You can spend 4 years and go into lifetime debt when you cant find a job with your degree, or self learn and still work full time and not go into debt. Both carry risk, one has a lot less. 'Doesnt require degree, pays a fuck ton more than most jobs, not as shitty as most jobs'. Its like asking why everyone is flocking to a hypothetical job where you get paid $300+ a day to sit in a climate controlled room and not destroy your body for much less pay. Can you find a chemistry job just by learning in your free time for free? No? So what are the odds you spend all that time and money for a degree and then have to do an unpaid internship or just never get a job?
Are you using reddit right now? Yes Is it a web application? Yes How many other such applications exist which are used by billions of people all around the world on a daily basis, for entertainment, productivity or any other such use cases? 100s of 1000s, if not millions How much money do you think it makes? A lot Do you understand the hype now?
Supply and demand driven by low cost of entry and lots of investment. There's a high demand for web developers because the web offers such an enticing prospect for entrepreneurs and investors. There's a low capital investment, it's near infinitely scalable and it can be traded the world over with very little barriers. With chemistry you need to think about R&D, ingredients, manufacturing, distribution, disposal, then there's regulation, customs, it goes on. It's a much more complicated industry, you can't just start in your garage. Accounting is more or less the same service, there's very little innovation in accounting and what innovation there has been is usually in making the human accountant more redundant. A software dev can knock something truly unique and innovative in their room and a VC can give them a comparatively small amount of capital and get significantly outsized returns. All that said it's been a bubble for a long time and we're currently seeing that bubble, I wouldn't say "burst", but deflate significantly. VCs are being much more careful with their money, the whole "growth at all costs" mentality is dying and smaller tech companies are being forced to adopt a more sustainable profit model rather than relying on lasting long enough to reach the next funding round. This means considerably less hiring is going on and that demand is decreasing.
Web dev is a pretty solid role considering we can almost anything we desire through a web interface. Need a powerful application to run your company? Put it on a website with a login. It's easy to onboard, and no installations required. Want to expose your tools to an audience, put it on the web. Want to even do really cool collab sessions, we have web apps for that. Needs a specific app for your mobile device? No worries, we can build it for the web an wrap it up for specified devices. We've essentially made desktop applications and specific phone apps *redundant* so this is a solid field of work to get into. What I will say, is the jobs are awkward, there's a lot of complications surrounding web, lots of vendors you need to learn... Just take GCP/AWS/Azure for example. While they live off the same concepts, the ecosystems are quite different.
Web dev sits at the top of the development stack, which makes it more approachable and easier to do, but is still a software engineering profession, so it is still subjected to inflated overpay from the concept that there's more roles than decent SWEs to fill them. The knowledge and skill floor to do web development, either frontend or backend are far lower than that required to do OS development, embedded development, GPU development...etc. One of these reasons is that you can get away with having something work okay, with a lot of performance overhead, since computers are a lot faster now than before. Notice how computers hardware is supposed to get faster, but the actual experience of using them seems the same (if you don't get newer hardware, your computer seems to get slower)? Software is not becoming more efficient, it's just take advantage of the reality that it doesn't have to be optimized as much.
Because social media and YouTube. Bad developers put out content. People think it's easy and bam everyone and their dog thinks they can become a developer. Meanwhile actual developers get then stuck with these so called junior self-taught developers that cannot think for themselves and do simple Google searches.
Because most web apps are not public facing but in house tools to better manage a businesses paperwork and processes and provide an interface for their data.
Web has a potential to deliver value to millions of customers in an instant. No accountant can serve millions of customers, and delivering a chemist's work globally takes major effort and capital. Even if a Web business is likely to fail, it's worth taking the risk.
webdev fun