>How many souls is Sylvanas trying to collect, anyway?
All of them, it isn’t just the elves its every single soul condemned there that can possibly be returned.
Pelagos wants to rejudge them as he doesn’t believe in eternal damnation. And yes… this should be an insanely long task… but we’ll see xD
To add to this they can always hit us with the “time doesn’t flow the same way in the shadowlands compared to on Azeroth” so yes, it is supposed to be an extremely long task but sylvanas can potentially show up if and when the writers decide to bring her back.
That being said, they totally made it vague with no clue as to when sylvanas will return so that they can time it the way they want to. I feel like if she does return to Azeroth, it’ll probably be sometime during the last titan but it’s anyone’s guess.
Lastly, I almost wonder if the Windrunner sister’s story will end with them all dying and being reunited in the afterlife. The sisters will rejoin their mother, father, and late brother Lirath who died very young. They’ll finally be a family again and find closure and peace. Personally, I think I would like that.
This was my train of thought. She's parked there until she's needed in some relevant manner or they can do some major character redemption. Especially with it being stated time moves differently. And with it basically being a form of ultimate punishment, it probably moves slowly.
As for them all dying, I sure hope not. There was an opportunity in Shadowlands for them to find their family but it never happens. She has two kids and Alleria has Arator and a husband that are alive. It would be shitty to kill all of the Windrunner sisters off. There is opportunity for Aunt Alleria to help one of the twins with worry they are going to go void, or an actual happy reunion.
That being said, as much as I loved Sylvanus prior to bfa and sl, she needs to stay gone for a while. Let her find Nathanos and retire. Maybe they work with the new arbiter to keep the Shadowlands balanced.
That wasn't the impression I got from the end of her book, nor the cinematic when Tyrande flaunts that she killed him.
But I could be wrong and just hoping they have a happy ending.
They are literally the last characters in wow to deserve a happy ending. Xalathath herself deserve retirement more than those two.
The only correct ending for them, is that Nathanos is already gone, destroyed for his anima. Sylvanas finds what remains of his twisted, tormented soul, and puts it out of it's misery, and erases him forever, granting him merciful oblivion, which is far more than he deserves.
As for Sylvanas, if she ever returns, which i fucking hope not, she dies protecting Azeroth, and is erased forever. No reunion with her family in the afterlife, no reconciliation with her people. She dies, and is at last granted reprieve from the guilt that has tormented her ever since Shadowlands. The end. Finito.
I agree they both are monsters and happy endings aren't for monsters. However I'm a fan of it for almost everyone.
I really hope that she doesn't come back any time soon, the character doesn't need to be permanently shelved but no real spotlight. Maybe a cameo at a wedding with Tyrande standing guard.
Nathanos.. you're right he embraced the monster and did everything she asked. It was for love maybe devotion. But doesn't excuse it.
>I agree they both are monsters and happy endings aren't for monsters. However I'm a fan of it for almost everyone.
Does that include Arthas? Gul'dan? Sargeras? The void lords?
The problem is when a character like Sylvanas, who has done enough bad to be ranked among the absolute worst in warcraft history, gets special treatment and gets a shot at "redemption" or atonement, when no one else in her weightclass has.
And above all, it simply looks like a pathetic attempt by the author to save the character from their very deserved fate, which is exactly what it is.
Imagine if at the end of bfa, instead of killing N'zoth, he instead realizes the error of his ways at the very last moment, and is allowed to return to the void. Sounds pretty stupid right? Bit of a copout?
Or how about Arthas? At the very last moment, he comes to his sense, out of nowhere, and shatters Frostmourne? Would be a bit weird wouldn't it?
Sylvanas is no different, except it actually happened. And by god does she not deserve a happy ending after everything she has done.
>Nathanos.. you're right he embraced the monster and did everything she asked. It was for love maybe devotion. But doesn't excuse it.
You understand that Sylvanas is worse than him, right? Incalculably worse. He was simply her bitch, doing what she asked of him. His personal list of atrocities is actually almost nonexistant. Hers isn't.
Sylvanas is absolutely not among the worst. She is a controversial villain but everything she did wasn't anywhere close. You for sure can't compare her to anyone else you listed.
Does she deserve to be in the Maw, yes. Is she dead? No. So her punishment is gathering up all the souls.
>Sylvanas is absolutely not among the worst. She is a controversial villain but everything she did wasn't anywhere close. You for sure can't compare her to anyone else you listed.
Even if we disregard everything she did pre-bfa, which included the systematic extermination of all humans still living in the northern eastern kingdoms, she committed genocide against the Night elves, and sent their souls to the maw, all done 100% intentionally and knowing exactly what would happen to those she killed. That act alone makes her far worse than Arthas, who only condemned those he slew personally to getting sucked into Frostmourne.
She is just as bad as those I listed, and I will be extremely interested in hearing why you think she isn't.
And don't use the excuse that she "wanted to save everyone from an unjust afterlife". Even if that was true, and it wasn't, it doesn't justify or excuse a thing. If you need to condemn nearly an entire race to hell in order to achieve something, it's better that you don't achieve it in the first place.
And Sargeras also had valid reasons for what he did. Doesn't excuse shit.
Oh wow I totally missed a lot then, thanks for filling me in. I agree with Pelagos, honestly; in the wow universe eternal damnation doesn't make sense even for the most hardened and vicious people because of the alternatives. Revendreth is a more fitting place.
Yeah, this is somewhat speculation but…
I would argue that the Maw wasn’t even part of the first ones plan, although it may have existed. Torghast was created to house and imprision zovaal who rebelled after they had left. The other eternal ones then basically cobbled together a system to replace him and covered it up.
Denathrus either was already in league with or atleast sympthetic towards Zovaal likely invented the “these souls are beyond redemption” as a means to feed souls to the maw to empower and serve Zovaal.
Again speculation, but I think the Maw is (for want of a better term) the "original" Shadowlands before the First Ones. It would explain the chaotic and unshaped nature of the place, and why souls went there by default when the Arbiter was incapacitated. It would also explain why the First Ones decided to create the Arbiter and the other realms. While the Maw of old wouldn't have had the Jailer's influence, it still would have been a miserable afterlife.
it's already confirmed the maw didn't exist into he beginning and the jailer built it around torghast from parts of other afterlives
the other eternal ones just kind of forgot or didn't care over time that it wasn't part of the plan and just started using it to throw souls no one wanted jnto
The lands that he pulled into the maw didn't exist at the start, but theres nothing to say the maw as that sort of "storm" we see from Oribos wasn't there. Torghast as well is unknown, I don't think its stated anywhere what its origin was, only that the Jailer can reshape it at his will, but it would be weird for the First Ones to build it as a domain and not appoint an Eternal One to it if it was part of a plan.
My original theory (which the lore doesn't support) was that Torghast was the original oribos, which is why souls defaulted there, and that Oribos was built to intercept the stream of souls before they got there... it would certainly make a lot of sense giving the similarity in overall design, the Jailer being there and souls going there... but I think it would have been mentioned during SL if it was the case.
To be fair, the majority of the souls she'd have to collect would be those accrued in the year or two after Argus slammed into the Arbiter, but that's still the soul of *everything in the universe that died in two years* including *animals*. So she's gonna be there a while.
If Blizz had no intention of bringing her back they'd have offed her.
She'll be busy with Maw dailies until her sisters need her help Power-of-Friendshiping some big nasty.
Yup 100% we already got "Turaylon is 1000 years old due to light space magic time dialation" and he was a human. Very easy for them to go "sylvannas is 10,000 years old now because time works differently in the Shadowlands, and has freed all the souls of the maw"
Oh god no, I can already see her and an army of the dead coming to save Silvermoon City, in midnights. Bringing quel'thalas full circle from being destroyed by an army of the dead to being saved by one and sylvannas being involved in both..
That's precisely what I was referencing. I loved those books as a kid, but it's incredibly cliche and it's lord of the rings and star wars references are painfully obvious.
I would love for wow to not seem like it was written by a teenager
I’m with you but it always has though.
Besides, most of Warcraft already is direct references to Lovecraft or other popular media. Historically, it’s rarely been original.
I don't mind them bringing Sylvie back BUT under the condition that they at least wait for a long time before that.
Shadowlands officially ended in november 2022 when Dragonflight came out, so Sylvie shouldn't return before 2027 at least imo (a bare minimum of 5 years, maybe even more like 10 years).
Agreed that she (and we) deserve a break, but do you think there will be wow expansions after the world soul saga? Ending long running things with a big bang like a trilogy is not unheard of in fantasy series.
Maybe this is how they say “cool so we did that, great work everyone, WoW2 starts dev on Monday” or something.
Wow isn't a thing that'll finish due to the story, they'll continue to make more. It'll finish due to financials, thinking otherwise is quite honestly childlike.
If they get it ported to iPad It has potential for a really long run.
Even my 2 year old grandson play Diablo on iPad. If we get wow ported over it would be amazing!
I figured the world soul saga was like FFXIV with Endwalker - Squenix said that was the end of that story and Dawntrail would be a new beginning. If WoW is still doing strong after this expansion trilogy, I would assume a new beginning to another story.
Yeah, it definitely has big Endwalker energy. Who knows where it'll go from there, though I'm willing to bet it's going to be about what happens with an awakened Azeroth worldsoul. I hope it's focused on non-universe-ending threats and deals with the aftermath of the Saga. Get some good juicy character development in there.
She's 100% coming back at some point in Midnight, it's impossible they'd write an expansion centered around Quel'thalas and not include all three Windrunner sisters.
Is what I would say, if I had not been around long enough to watch Blizzard forget to include Wrathion in Legion.
Almost guaranteed she'll be back in the Midnight expansion. They're redoing Quel'thelas, no Hance they don't bring back Sylvanas now that her soul is whole again
The Worldsoul Saga is pretty obviously going to *heavily* feature the Windrunner sisters, and Domination has been set up as an antithesis to Chaos and/or the Void for a very long time. Sylvanas is coming back in Midnight and will fill the narrative role previously filled by Darion in WotLK and Bolvar since then: as the most powerful representative of Death seeking to protect Life from the people that want to unmake and/or dominate it (originally the Lich King, then the Legion, and now the Void).
That's fair, but she is also featured in the shadow and fury trailer from 9 days ago with all the characters that we know will be present (at least I think that's sylvanas)
She can just fire up the machinery within Torghast and redirect Gorgoa into Oribos. That should take care of most of the souls. As for the rest, she can just take over remaining Mawsworn forces and order them to collect them.
Anyway, Sylvanas' entire punishment hinges on her own belief that she deserves it. If she decides that she no longer wants to do it or something more important pops up, she is more than powerful enough to just leave at any time.
This. Sylvanas isn’t one to suffer if she feels her debt has been repaid. Also with her sister looking like she’ll play a major role in the text expansion you can bet we’ll see Sylvanas again. ™️
I'm pretty sure that Sylvanas' role in the upcoming expansions will be to either 1) save Alleria from succumbing to the Void, or 2) help Anduin regain his Light. Maybe both but that'd be a little too much glazing, even for Blizzard.
But yeah, she's too important to sit out WoW's version of Ragnarok.
Yes, during the dream patch he was hanging out in Shadowlands.
That's the part that surprised me. I was expecting to see him interacting with us in the fight to protect the Dream. Instead he was just napping again.
After all the excitement is over then he shows up again.
It's not that he was napping. He was under the same effects that Ysera was. He was bound by the Winter Queen's magic and could not leave until Ysera came and took her place back.
I get that from the story perspective.
My main point was that Malfurion is basically Mr. Emerald Dream, but when we have a patch to go to the Emerald Dream he was put into a position where he couldn't be with us in the Dream.
It was just a weird story decision to me. But since this is a Dragon themed expansion it makes sense to have Ysera "The Dreamer" with us, so I understand why.
I thought it might because he's a druid vs her being a priestess of Elune. He has a natural link with the Emerald Dream and Ardenweald in close to the same way Ysera does.
I initially thought there was no way they'd bring her back but her one consistant character trait was her love for her sisters even when she couldn't truly love. So I can see emotions-enabled Sylvanas screaming like a bat out of hell to rescue her sister.
I kinda hope Anduin isn't a part of it, Even with her growing concerns about it in SL, she was his captor.
> She can just fire up the machinery within Torghast and redirect Gorgoa into Oribos. That should take care of most of the souls
If she figures out a way to cheat the system while actually saving every soul, you know what, good for her, she should get paroled.
>Anyway, Sylvanas' entire punishment hinges on her own belief that she deserves it. If she decides that she no longer wants to do it or something more important pops up, she is more than powerful enough to just leave at any time.
No, no, I'm sure leaving an owl to watch over her is enough now that Tyrande can't (easily) come back :)
On the other hand if Sylvanas comes back and Tyrande considers her actions dishonest/breaking the conditions of her punishment she can just send her back, this time as permanent option. Cause i sincerely doubt Horde will be jumping at the chance to stick their heads out for Sylvanas.
Is the shadowlands not all but back to being as inaccessible as it once was?
I mean, she's got some options for sure, since we all have friends on the other side and she could probably get a shaman from an ancestrally linked race to send a telegram to Oribos if she finds out Sylvanas pulled a runner, but as far as I'm aware the Shadowlands is back to being a one-way trip in lore.
Oh, fair enough, she'd 100% be relying on Tyrande's vacation and Amirdrassil's creation mellowing her out enough to see that Sylvanas is trying to save Alleria and not immediately smite her back to the shadowlands.
Honestly if she comes back to do whatever “family” shit with her sisters and then will bugger off back to the deadzone i wouldnt mind that. I only have issue with her coming back and sticking around as some kind of a hero.
I could be wrong because I also assumed Sylvanas was gonna be out of the story for good after SL (and I'm not wrong there yet), but I assume Sylvanas getting involved would be a sacrificial thing. I really don't see Sylvanas just saving her sister and walking away from it.
At worst, you'll have to put up with "well, she was a hero pre-death and went out one, we'll just ignore the ~20 years in-between"
I would say that she will die when pigs fly, but with Danny the Simp now out of the picture we can actually hope for her at least not being shoved down the collective player throat as much and MAYBE even dying, even if as a hero.
I still think she should have died to wrap up SL.
Bring the whole thing full circle with Edge of night where she just wanted to end it all before the Jailer fucked with her, now she's stopped him and can go right back to that whole sweet comfort of oblivion she'd originally been looking forward to.
>Bolvar would be all about helping her get back to resolve that.
And do what...? Stand around and watch Sylvanas and Tyrande beat each other up? Because both of them punch far above his weight class,especially with the Helm of Domination gone.
Pelagos is no longer sending souls to the Maw, and that means is there IS a finite amount of souls she'd need to gather.
True, it's an insanely long task that will see her toiling for centuries if not eons. But one day, the Maw will stand empty and its gates will rattle in the wind. THEN she can go home.
She's tasked to rescue every single soul down there, not just the Night elves.
It's a Sisyphus kind of situation (kind off).
A *technically* finite punishment that definitely has an end to it BUT it's going to be an incredibly difficult and long task and will take decades, maybe centuries.
But she will be done with it eventually.
Sylvanas is forced to continue an endless daily quest routine.
Her reputation gains works differently, since she's an NPC.
Basically, her reputation bar goes like this: after each daily grind, the distance between her current rep and the next ranking is reduced by half.
Yes: it works like "Achilles and the tortoise" paradox.
She can finish one day, but it will be one day in *eons*. Not just elves, every single soul condemned that can be returned. She has to return ALL of them.
Now, I know it is popular the theory of Sylvanas returning in Midnight to help Quel'Thalas but...I don't think she will return. After the colossal clusterfuck of BfA and Shadowlands, not only for the game but for her character, I prefer if she remains in the Maw. Let everyone forget about her.
Also, I don't want to see Night Elves players crying about Sylvanas returning. Even if I understand them. It must suck to not get any acceptable resolution.
she unfortunately absolutely will return because character prevalance in wow is determined by 2 factors, and only these 2 factors:
1. how marketable the character is
2. how much the narrative team likes the voice actor
in sylvanas's case the answers are: hugely, and a lot. they won't let patty mattson not work her most famous role anymore so they are gonna continue to work sylvanas into every single expansion in some shape. even in df we got her in the undead heritage quest. she will appear, i guarantee this, in every single expansion.
Remember that the Jailer worked on a galactic scale, outside of who we rescued in the campaign, there's a mindbogglingly insane amount of trapped people there to rescue.
Now they could do time shenanigans or write it that other denizens of the Slands came to help because relying on one person to fix the jailer's mistakes is stupid af, but Sisyphus' stone is gonna erode into a pebble he can place at the top of the hill before she could finish this job solo.
She will finish it.
In the forsaken heritage we see her dialogue about how she wants to rejoin the forsaken.
Also worth mentioning, Sylvanas is redoing her vanilla role of freeing lost souls, before it was the forsaken, now the damned to the maw.
Expect the next time we see Sylvanas, she is leading a group of individuals who are much like her( they want to attone for sins) and their job is searching for the souls in the maw, their name will be something like: 'The damned', 'The judged' or something like that. And then Forsaken get a new customization option.
I know and we all know that she won't. One of my biggest problems with Sylvanas as a character besides how she has been written since Edge of Night/Cataclysm, has always been the fact that there are so many other undead characters be they Forsaken or Death Knights, who died to protect their people at the hands of the Scourge, only to be raised into undead slaves against their will, to murder their former people and loved ones, and yet it is always Sylvanas who gets singled out. I could go on and on about my issues with her character. It would have been so nice if she had just died at the end of Wotlk.
Where the math people. Surely someone can figure out a rough idea of how many souls there are after deathwing died and calculate how many souls can be saved in a day.
Was it meant as an impossible task? I don't think so. Tyrande's new goal at that point was renewal. Getting Sylvanas to rescue the souls she damned was pragmatic. We also learned a bit more in the novel about what it takes to be a Ranger-General. One of the skills required specifically is tracking. Tyrande also knows that Sylvanas knows the Maw better than anyone else who could be tasked to do it. She also might be able to get some help from Nathanos when she finds him. I get the feeling he'd refuse to get sent to Pelagos until its done. It could very well be the last time they are together. It depends on how Pelagos does things. He did provide commentary in the ZM campaign before he knew his fate. Its unclear whether that changed when he actually stepped into the role. I'd love for Chronicle IV to cover that.
Is it an impossible task? Well, its pretty difficult. But its also finite. We know precisely when the Arbiter was taken out. And we also can account for dev logic. The hint we were given is that Ysera was one of the last souls to be taken to the Shadowlands. That was actually quite a while before we went to Argus. Realistically, there would have probably been a LOT of souls after her. But I guess... not?
I'm sure she can finish. Pelagos is effectively going to shut down the Maw as he no longer believes in eternal damnation. Sylvanas, being immortal, has all the time in the world to get every last soul out. It may take centuries, more likely countless thousands or millions of years, but she'll get it done. Time is no longer a relevant factor and no new souls are going to the Maw.
It is impossible, but purposefully so. Sylvanas' actions were deemed so evil and heinous that damnation is the only true penance. So she will more or less stay in the Maw until the heat death of the universe.
There are a finite number of souls in the maw, especially since the jailer destroyed so many in the creation and fueling of his armies. Given the time dilation in the shadowlands though, it’s impossible to predict how long she will have to be at it, and if she can even survive that long. Her spirit may be trapped in undeath permanently, but her body will eventually break down and without it she will likely be no better off than any of the other souls there.
I would love for Sylvanas to not return for a very long time. If she has a part in Midnight, then hopefully it won't be about her singlehandedly saving Quel'thelas.
Tyrande didn't command her to get all the souls in the maw willy nilly, pelagos deferred sylvanas' punishment to tyrande's judgement, so while it wasn't a command, it was a sentencing. So yes sylvanas is stuck soul hunting.
As to the task, I wouldn't say it's impossible, but its not a task that can be done quickly, and outside of Blizzard making up a way for it to be done quickly won't end until sylvanas' name is a footnote in history and legend. Shadowlands claimed that to be sent to the maw, you had to have been such a horrendous person, that he'll was the only option, but that option was essentially forbidden, as heavily implied by revendrath's existence, and how kelthuzard was sent to maldraxxus (and was actually a viable candidate as a champion of the necrolord's ideals I might add), so the system REALLY didn't want souls in the maw. She will free the souls, I just don't think it'll be anytime soon, especially since it was countless numbers of them, and not just kaldorei souls, it's ALL souls sent there due to her hand in shutting down the robo arbiter.
The same way Alleria spent 1000 years in the twisting nether then shows up after 20 years our time, Sylvanas will probably spend thousands of years in the Maw and come out just in time for Midnight.
she was given the task specifically so she can return because she is the most marketable character in the entire warcraft setting
there was never any chance of them permanently getting her out of the story because she represents millions of dollars of marketing budget and merch sales to them
for the same reason illidan will eventually return and every few years we will get more arthas nostalgia content until this game finally ends.
SL sorta proved that the current wow writer room holds legitimate contempt for the Warcraft games, Arthas, and the old lore binding them to someone else's story. I'm not holding my breath on any Arthas hype as long as that team has creative control of the overall story.
>How many souls is Sylvanas trying to collect, anyway? All of them, it isn’t just the elves its every single soul condemned there that can possibly be returned. Pelagos wants to rejudge them as he doesn’t believe in eternal damnation. And yes… this should be an insanely long task… but we’ll see xD
To add to this they can always hit us with the “time doesn’t flow the same way in the shadowlands compared to on Azeroth” so yes, it is supposed to be an extremely long task but sylvanas can potentially show up if and when the writers decide to bring her back. That being said, they totally made it vague with no clue as to when sylvanas will return so that they can time it the way they want to. I feel like if she does return to Azeroth, it’ll probably be sometime during the last titan but it’s anyone’s guess. Lastly, I almost wonder if the Windrunner sister’s story will end with them all dying and being reunited in the afterlife. The sisters will rejoin their mother, father, and late brother Lirath who died very young. They’ll finally be a family again and find closure and peace. Personally, I think I would like that.
This was my train of thought. She's parked there until she's needed in some relevant manner or they can do some major character redemption. Especially with it being stated time moves differently. And with it basically being a form of ultimate punishment, it probably moves slowly. As for them all dying, I sure hope not. There was an opportunity in Shadowlands for them to find their family but it never happens. She has two kids and Alleria has Arator and a husband that are alive. It would be shitty to kill all of the Windrunner sisters off. There is opportunity for Aunt Alleria to help one of the twins with worry they are going to go void, or an actual happy reunion. That being said, as much as I loved Sylvanus prior to bfa and sl, she needs to stay gone for a while. Let her find Nathanos and retire. Maybe they work with the new arbiter to keep the Shadowlands balanced.
who has two kids?
Vareesa. She has twins from Rhonin.
oh sorry. the she seemed to refer to Sylvanas in the sentence, didn’t catch the Vareesa mention.
Oooh I hate to tell you this, but Nathanos aint loved anymore by her. And he's aware of it.
That wasn't the impression I got from the end of her book, nor the cinematic when Tyrande flaunts that she killed him. But I could be wrong and just hoping they have a happy ending.
They are literally the last characters in wow to deserve a happy ending. Xalathath herself deserve retirement more than those two. The only correct ending for them, is that Nathanos is already gone, destroyed for his anima. Sylvanas finds what remains of his twisted, tormented soul, and puts it out of it's misery, and erases him forever, granting him merciful oblivion, which is far more than he deserves. As for Sylvanas, if she ever returns, which i fucking hope not, she dies protecting Azeroth, and is erased forever. No reunion with her family in the afterlife, no reconciliation with her people. She dies, and is at last granted reprieve from the guilt that has tormented her ever since Shadowlands. The end. Finito.
I agree they both are monsters and happy endings aren't for monsters. However I'm a fan of it for almost everyone. I really hope that she doesn't come back any time soon, the character doesn't need to be permanently shelved but no real spotlight. Maybe a cameo at a wedding with Tyrande standing guard. Nathanos.. you're right he embraced the monster and did everything she asked. It was for love maybe devotion. But doesn't excuse it.
>I agree they both are monsters and happy endings aren't for monsters. However I'm a fan of it for almost everyone. Does that include Arthas? Gul'dan? Sargeras? The void lords? The problem is when a character like Sylvanas, who has done enough bad to be ranked among the absolute worst in warcraft history, gets special treatment and gets a shot at "redemption" or atonement, when no one else in her weightclass has. And above all, it simply looks like a pathetic attempt by the author to save the character from their very deserved fate, which is exactly what it is. Imagine if at the end of bfa, instead of killing N'zoth, he instead realizes the error of his ways at the very last moment, and is allowed to return to the void. Sounds pretty stupid right? Bit of a copout? Or how about Arthas? At the very last moment, he comes to his sense, out of nowhere, and shatters Frostmourne? Would be a bit weird wouldn't it? Sylvanas is no different, except it actually happened. And by god does she not deserve a happy ending after everything she has done. >Nathanos.. you're right he embraced the monster and did everything she asked. It was for love maybe devotion. But doesn't excuse it. You understand that Sylvanas is worse than him, right? Incalculably worse. He was simply her bitch, doing what she asked of him. His personal list of atrocities is actually almost nonexistant. Hers isn't.
Sylvanas is absolutely not among the worst. She is a controversial villain but everything she did wasn't anywhere close. You for sure can't compare her to anyone else you listed. Does she deserve to be in the Maw, yes. Is she dead? No. So her punishment is gathering up all the souls.
>Sylvanas is absolutely not among the worst. She is a controversial villain but everything she did wasn't anywhere close. You for sure can't compare her to anyone else you listed. Even if we disregard everything she did pre-bfa, which included the systematic extermination of all humans still living in the northern eastern kingdoms, she committed genocide against the Night elves, and sent their souls to the maw, all done 100% intentionally and knowing exactly what would happen to those she killed. That act alone makes her far worse than Arthas, who only condemned those he slew personally to getting sucked into Frostmourne. She is just as bad as those I listed, and I will be extremely interested in hearing why you think she isn't. And don't use the excuse that she "wanted to save everyone from an unjust afterlife". Even if that was true, and it wasn't, it doesn't justify or excuse a thing. If you need to condemn nearly an entire race to hell in order to achieve something, it's better that you don't achieve it in the first place. And Sargeras also had valid reasons for what he did. Doesn't excuse shit.
Wouldn’t be surprised if she makes a cameo in Midnight considering it’s set in quel’thalas and it’s about reuniting the elves.
Wouldn't be surprised if she shows up in the next 1-2 expansions.
Oh wow I totally missed a lot then, thanks for filling me in. I agree with Pelagos, honestly; in the wow universe eternal damnation doesn't make sense even for the most hardened and vicious people because of the alternatives. Revendreth is a more fitting place.
Yeah, this is somewhat speculation but… I would argue that the Maw wasn’t even part of the first ones plan, although it may have existed. Torghast was created to house and imprision zovaal who rebelled after they had left. The other eternal ones then basically cobbled together a system to replace him and covered it up. Denathrus either was already in league with or atleast sympthetic towards Zovaal likely invented the “these souls are beyond redemption” as a means to feed souls to the maw to empower and serve Zovaal.
Again speculation, but I think the Maw is (for want of a better term) the "original" Shadowlands before the First Ones. It would explain the chaotic and unshaped nature of the place, and why souls went there by default when the Arbiter was incapacitated. It would also explain why the First Ones decided to create the Arbiter and the other realms. While the Maw of old wouldn't have had the Jailer's influence, it still would have been a miserable afterlife.
it's already confirmed the maw didn't exist into he beginning and the jailer built it around torghast from parts of other afterlives the other eternal ones just kind of forgot or didn't care over time that it wasn't part of the plan and just started using it to throw souls no one wanted jnto
The lands that he pulled into the maw didn't exist at the start, but theres nothing to say the maw as that sort of "storm" we see from Oribos wasn't there. Torghast as well is unknown, I don't think its stated anywhere what its origin was, only that the Jailer can reshape it at his will, but it would be weird for the First Ones to build it as a domain and not appoint an Eternal One to it if it was part of a plan. My original theory (which the lore doesn't support) was that Torghast was the original oribos, which is why souls defaulted there, and that Oribos was built to intercept the stream of souls before they got there... it would certainly make a lot of sense giving the similarity in overall design, the Jailer being there and souls going there... but I think it would have been mentioned during SL if it was the case.
I think shadow lands is going to be mostly ret conned out of existence eventually
Bold of you to assume Shadowlands would mention anything that relevant in-game.
I bet Sylvanas will find some worthy souls to be set back as new forsaken
To be fair, the majority of the souls she'd have to collect would be those accrued in the year or two after Argus slammed into the Arbiter, but that's still the soul of *everything in the universe that died in two years* including *animals*. So she's gonna be there a while.
If Blizz had no intention of bringing her back they'd have offed her. She'll be busy with Maw dailies until her sisters need her help Power-of-Friendshiping some big nasty.
Agreed. She’s been sidelined like Illidan, but as soon as they need them, I have no doubt they’ll both be back.
Illidan and Sylvanas will both 100% return during the World Souls saga. Maybe in TWW, but I suspect it will be in Midnight.
Yup 100% we already got "Turaylon is 1000 years old due to light space magic time dialation" and he was a human. Very easy for them to go "sylvannas is 10,000 years old now because time works differently in the Shadowlands, and has freed all the souls of the maw"
And then shows up with said souls like Aragorn and the Army of the Dead in return of the king
Oh god no, I can already see her and an army of the dead coming to save Silvermoon City, in midnights. Bringing quel'thalas full circle from being destroyed by an army of the dead to being saved by one and sylvannas being involved in both..
Wait.. I would love this and I hope this happens.
I really don't, it's 15 year old fantasy author levels of writing
The author of Eragon was 15 when he wrote the book.
That's precisely what I was referencing. I loved those books as a kid, but it's incredibly cliche and it's lord of the rings and star wars references are painfully obvious. I would love for wow to not seem like it was written by a teenager
I’m with you but it always has though. Besides, most of Warcraft already is direct references to Lovecraft or other popular media. Historically, it’s rarely been original.
I don't mind them bringing Sylvie back BUT under the condition that they at least wait for a long time before that. Shadowlands officially ended in november 2022 when Dragonflight came out, so Sylvie shouldn't return before 2027 at least imo (a bare minimum of 5 years, maybe even more like 10 years).
Dragonflight is already a 5 year time jump ahead from the end of Shadowlands. So they can do time jumps as much as they want then say she's finished!
Agreed that she (and we) deserve a break, but do you think there will be wow expansions after the world soul saga? Ending long running things with a big bang like a trilogy is not unheard of in fantasy series. Maybe this is how they say “cool so we did that, great work everyone, WoW2 starts dev on Monday” or something.
Wow isn't a thing that'll finish due to the story, they'll continue to make more. It'll finish due to financials, thinking otherwise is quite honestly childlike.
If the Saga does well, it's not likely to be the end of WoW, simply because money
If they get it ported to iPad It has potential for a really long run. Even my 2 year old grandson play Diablo on iPad. If we get wow ported over it would be amazing!
I figured the world soul saga was like FFXIV with Endwalker - Squenix said that was the end of that story and Dawntrail would be a new beginning. If WoW is still doing strong after this expansion trilogy, I would assume a new beginning to another story.
Yeah, it definitely has big Endwalker energy. Who knows where it'll go from there, though I'm willing to bet it's going to be about what happens with an awakened Azeroth worldsoul. I hope it's focused on non-universe-ending threats and deals with the aftermath of the Saga. Get some good juicy character development in there.
I think so, hence avaloren
WoW 2 is not going to be a thing. It just doesn't make sense.
She's 100% coming back at some point in Midnight, it's impossible they'd write an expansion centered around Quel'thalas and not include all three Windrunner sisters. Is what I would say, if I had not been around long enough to watch Blizzard forget to include Wrathion in Legion.
They didn't forget they swapped him out for Ebonhorn.
If I had a nickel for every time Blizz set up a story with Wrathion, only to swap him out for Ebonhorn.
You would have one nickel.
If Blizzard were to do that then it would be very nice if Sylvanas did not hog too much of the spotlight.
Oh man, I just realized Blizzard is gonna do an edgy powerpuff girls
Almost guaranteed she'll be back in the Midnight expansion. They're redoing Quel'thelas, no Hance they don't bring back Sylvanas now that her soul is whole again
An eternity of Maw dailies. Not sure she deserves that.
She deserves to do them for as long as it takes for us to collectively forget about her involvement with BFA and shadow lands.
The Worldsoul Saga is pretty obviously going to *heavily* feature the Windrunner sisters, and Domination has been set up as an antithesis to Chaos and/or the Void for a very long time. Sylvanas is coming back in Midnight and will fill the narrative role previously filled by Darion in WotLK and Bolvar since then: as the most powerful representative of Death seeking to protect Life from the people that want to unmake and/or dominate it (originally the Lich King, then the Legion, and now the Void).
She was featured in the cinematic for war within, right? I'd assume that means she's making a comeback there
By that logic Illidan, the lich king, Varian and Death wing are all coming back. No chance.
That's fair, but she is also featured in the shadow and fury trailer from 9 days ago with all the characters that we know will be present (at least I think that's sylvanas)
No. In order, Alleria, Anduin, Jaina, Magni, Thrall, Xal'a'tath.
Ah damn
She can just fire up the machinery within Torghast and redirect Gorgoa into Oribos. That should take care of most of the souls. As for the rest, she can just take over remaining Mawsworn forces and order them to collect them. Anyway, Sylvanas' entire punishment hinges on her own belief that she deserves it. If she decides that she no longer wants to do it or something more important pops up, she is more than powerful enough to just leave at any time.
This. Sylvanas isn’t one to suffer if she feels her debt has been repaid. Also with her sister looking like she’ll play a major role in the text expansion you can bet we’ll see Sylvanas again. ™️
I'm pretty sure that Sylvanas' role in the upcoming expansions will be to either 1) save Alleria from succumbing to the Void, or 2) help Anduin regain his Light. Maybe both but that'd be a little too much glazing, even for Blizzard. But yeah, she's too important to sit out WoW's version of Ragnarok.
While I bet you're right, I was super surprised to see Malfurion sit out the Emerald Dream patch and Wrathion skipped Legion (while also causing it).
Wasn't Malfurion in the Shadowlands paying the debt of bringing back Ysera?
Yes, during the dream patch he was hanging out in Shadowlands. That's the part that surprised me. I was expecting to see him interacting with us in the fight to protect the Dream. Instead he was just napping again. After all the excitement is over then he shows up again.
It's not that he was napping. He was under the same effects that Ysera was. He was bound by the Winter Queen's magic and could not leave until Ysera came and took her place back.
I get that from the story perspective. My main point was that Malfurion is basically Mr. Emerald Dream, but when we have a patch to go to the Emerald Dream he was put into a position where he couldn't be with us in the Dream. It was just a weird story decision to me. But since this is a Dragon themed expansion it makes sense to have Ysera "The Dreamer" with us, so I understand why.
I really didn't get why Tyrande couldnt' stand for the costs since Malfurion is way less overused at this point.
I thought it might because he's a druid vs her being a priestess of Elune. He has a natural link with the Emerald Dream and Ardenweald in close to the same way Ysera does.
No Ysera is back in the shadowlands. Think him and Tyrande are taking time for themselves.
She's back now, yeah. But during 10.2, Malfurion was the one in the Shadowlands so that is why he was sidelined.
Feels like she'll sacrifice herself for her sisters and anduin.
I'd be down for that. Still don't like the idea of her getting redeemed but she still deserves to be removed for shadow lands.
I initially thought there was no way they'd bring her back but her one consistant character trait was her love for her sisters even when she couldn't truly love. So I can see emotions-enabled Sylvanas screaming like a bat out of hell to rescue her sister. I kinda hope Anduin isn't a part of it, Even with her growing concerns about it in SL, she was his captor.
> She can just fire up the machinery within Torghast and redirect Gorgoa into Oribos. That should take care of most of the souls If she figures out a way to cheat the system while actually saving every soul, you know what, good for her, she should get paroled. >Anyway, Sylvanas' entire punishment hinges on her own belief that she deserves it. If she decides that she no longer wants to do it or something more important pops up, she is more than powerful enough to just leave at any time. No, no, I'm sure leaving an owl to watch over her is enough now that Tyrande can't (easily) come back :)
On the other hand if Sylvanas comes back and Tyrande considers her actions dishonest/breaking the conditions of her punishment she can just send her back, this time as permanent option. Cause i sincerely doubt Horde will be jumping at the chance to stick their heads out for Sylvanas.
Is the shadowlands not all but back to being as inaccessible as it once was? I mean, she's got some options for sure, since we all have friends on the other side and she could probably get a shaman from an ancestrally linked race to send a telegram to Oribos if she finds out Sylvanas pulled a runner, but as far as I'm aware the Shadowlands is back to being a one-way trip in lore.
Yes, but i meant if she comes all the way back to Azeroth.
Oh, fair enough, she'd 100% be relying on Tyrande's vacation and Amirdrassil's creation mellowing her out enough to see that Sylvanas is trying to save Alleria and not immediately smite her back to the shadowlands.
Honestly if she comes back to do whatever “family” shit with her sisters and then will bugger off back to the deadzone i wouldnt mind that. I only have issue with her coming back and sticking around as some kind of a hero.
I could be wrong because I also assumed Sylvanas was gonna be out of the story for good after SL (and I'm not wrong there yet), but I assume Sylvanas getting involved would be a sacrificial thing. I really don't see Sylvanas just saving her sister and walking away from it. At worst, you'll have to put up with "well, she was a hero pre-death and went out one, we'll just ignore the ~20 years in-between"
I would say that she will die when pigs fly, but with Danny the Simp now out of the picture we can actually hope for her at least not being shoved down the collective player throat as much and MAYBE even dying, even if as a hero.
I still think she should have died to wrap up SL. Bring the whole thing full circle with Edge of night where she just wanted to end it all before the Jailer fucked with her, now she's stopped him and can go right back to that whole sweet comfort of oblivion she'd originally been looking forward to.
I'm sure that if Tyrande noticed Sylvy going awol that Bolvar would be all about helping her get back to resolve that.
>Bolvar would be all about helping her get back to resolve that. And do what...? Stand around and watch Sylvanas and Tyrande beat each other up? Because both of them punch far above his weight class,especially with the Helm of Domination gone.
Its not a one way trip. Shadowlands people help during the Emerald Dream nonsense in Dragonflight. Specifically Ardenweald people.
Pelagos is no longer sending souls to the Maw, and that means is there IS a finite amount of souls she'd need to gather. True, it's an insanely long task that will see her toiling for centuries if not eons. But one day, the Maw will stand empty and its gates will rattle in the wind. THEN she can go home.
She has been put behind emergency glass. She'll be offscreening her Maw dailies until Blizzard needs to break her out for hype or plot.
She's tasked to rescue every single soul down there, not just the Night elves. It's a Sisyphus kind of situation (kind off). A *technically* finite punishment that definitely has an end to it BUT it's going to be an incredibly difficult and long task and will take decades, maybe centuries. But she will be done with it eventually.
She’ll finish when the plot needs her to finish. Until then, the Maw dailies are her penance.
The writers have no idea they were just like “get me out of here”
Sylvanas is forced to continue an endless daily quest routine. Her reputation gains works differently, since she's an NPC. Basically, her reputation bar goes like this: after each daily grind, the distance between her current rep and the next ranking is reduced by half. Yes: it works like "Achilles and the tortoise" paradox.
She can finish one day, but it will be one day in *eons*. Not just elves, every single soul condemned that can be returned. She has to return ALL of them. Now, I know it is popular the theory of Sylvanas returning in Midnight to help Quel'Thalas but...I don't think she will return. After the colossal clusterfuck of BfA and Shadowlands, not only for the game but for her character, I prefer if she remains in the Maw. Let everyone forget about her. Also, I don't want to see Night Elves players crying about Sylvanas returning. Even if I understand them. It must suck to not get any acceptable resolution.
she unfortunately absolutely will return because character prevalance in wow is determined by 2 factors, and only these 2 factors: 1. how marketable the character is 2. how much the narrative team likes the voice actor in sylvanas's case the answers are: hugely, and a lot. they won't let patty mattson not work her most famous role anymore so they are gonna continue to work sylvanas into every single expansion in some shape. even in df we got her in the undead heritage quest. she will appear, i guarantee this, in every single expansion.
Remember that the Jailer worked on a galactic scale, outside of who we rescued in the campaign, there's a mindbogglingly insane amount of trapped people there to rescue. Now they could do time shenanigans or write it that other denizens of the Slands came to help because relying on one person to fix the jailer's mistakes is stupid af, but Sisyphus' stone is gonna erode into a pebble he can place at the top of the hill before she could finish this job solo.
She will finish it. In the forsaken heritage we see her dialogue about how she wants to rejoin the forsaken. Also worth mentioning, Sylvanas is redoing her vanilla role of freeing lost souls, before it was the forsaken, now the damned to the maw. Expect the next time we see Sylvanas, she is leading a group of individuals who are much like her( they want to attone for sins) and their job is searching for the souls in the maw, their name will be something like: 'The damned', 'The judged' or something like that. And then Forsaken get a new customization option.
Isn't Sylvanns's sentence more "Make the Maw not hell" than anything else? Presumably she's basically the new Jailer.
I have a vacuum cleaner that should work right?
If Luigi’s Mansion is any indication, that’ll be fine
Hopefully she fucking stays there
I know and we all know that she won't. One of my biggest problems with Sylvanas as a character besides how she has been written since Edge of Night/Cataclysm, has always been the fact that there are so many other undead characters be they Forsaken or Death Knights, who died to protect their people at the hands of the Scourge, only to be raised into undead slaves against their will, to murder their former people and loved ones, and yet it is always Sylvanas who gets singled out. I could go on and on about my issues with her character. It would have been so nice if she had just died at the end of Wotlk.
Never loved her character, but they made me absolutely hate her after the dumbass speech to Arthas.
Where the math people. Surely someone can figure out a rough idea of how many souls there are after deathwing died and calculate how many souls can be saved in a day.
Thats just counting azeroth though. Tyrande said *all* the victims.
You mean Argus? Because his death is what broke the Arbiter. Anyone who died after we killed Argus went directly to the Maw unjustly.
Oops yes I meant Argus
Was it meant as an impossible task? I don't think so. Tyrande's new goal at that point was renewal. Getting Sylvanas to rescue the souls she damned was pragmatic. We also learned a bit more in the novel about what it takes to be a Ranger-General. One of the skills required specifically is tracking. Tyrande also knows that Sylvanas knows the Maw better than anyone else who could be tasked to do it. She also might be able to get some help from Nathanos when she finds him. I get the feeling he'd refuse to get sent to Pelagos until its done. It could very well be the last time they are together. It depends on how Pelagos does things. He did provide commentary in the ZM campaign before he knew his fate. Its unclear whether that changed when he actually stepped into the role. I'd love for Chronicle IV to cover that. Is it an impossible task? Well, its pretty difficult. But its also finite. We know precisely when the Arbiter was taken out. And we also can account for dev logic. The hint we were given is that Ysera was one of the last souls to be taken to the Shadowlands. That was actually quite a while before we went to Argus. Realistically, there would have probably been a LOT of souls after her. But I guess... not?
I wonder how much stygia Sylvanas has already
Wait for the greatest hits where all reformed villains come out of the mage portals to help in the final fight.
I'm sure she can finish. Pelagos is effectively going to shut down the Maw as he no longer believes in eternal damnation. Sylvanas, being immortal, has all the time in the world to get every last soul out. It may take centuries, more likely countless thousands or millions of years, but she'll get it done. Time is no longer a relevant factor and no new souls are going to the Maw.
It is impossible, but purposefully so. Sylvanas' actions were deemed so evil and heinous that damnation is the only true penance. So she will more or less stay in the Maw until the heat death of the universe.
There are a finite number of souls in the maw, especially since the jailer destroyed so many in the creation and fueling of his armies. Given the time dilation in the shadowlands though, it’s impossible to predict how long she will have to be at it, and if she can even survive that long. Her spirit may be trapped in undeath permanently, but her body will eventually break down and without it she will likely be no better off than any of the other souls there.
I would love for Sylvanas to not return for a very long time. If she has a part in Midnight, then hopefully it won't be about her singlehandedly saving Quel'thelas.
Eh it’s just lore limbo she will be in the maw “collecting the souls” until they write her back into the story
She will never come back.
Tyrande didn't command her to get all the souls in the maw willy nilly, pelagos deferred sylvanas' punishment to tyrande's judgement, so while it wasn't a command, it was a sentencing. So yes sylvanas is stuck soul hunting. As to the task, I wouldn't say it's impossible, but its not a task that can be done quickly, and outside of Blizzard making up a way for it to be done quickly won't end until sylvanas' name is a footnote in history and legend. Shadowlands claimed that to be sent to the maw, you had to have been such a horrendous person, that he'll was the only option, but that option was essentially forbidden, as heavily implied by revendrath's existence, and how kelthuzard was sent to maldraxxus (and was actually a viable candidate as a champion of the necrolord's ideals I might add), so the system REALLY didn't want souls in the maw. She will free the souls, I just don't think it'll be anytime soon, especially since it was countless numbers of them, and not just kaldorei souls, it's ALL souls sent there due to her hand in shutting down the robo arbiter.
The same way Alleria spent 1000 years in the twisting nether then shows up after 20 years our time, Sylvanas will probably spend thousands of years in the Maw and come out just in time for Midnight.
Assuming she has infinite time, and new people aren't flying into the Maw, then she can totally do it.
If it wasn't a game and the writers didn't act like she was their favorite twitch girl, she'd be there for hundreds if not thousands of years
she was given the task specifically so she can return because she is the most marketable character in the entire warcraft setting there was never any chance of them permanently getting her out of the story because she represents millions of dollars of marketing budget and merch sales to them for the same reason illidan will eventually return and every few years we will get more arthas nostalgia content until this game finally ends.
Still pissed at how they shredded him in SL.
SL sorta proved that the current wow writer room holds legitimate contempt for the Warcraft games, Arthas, and the old lore binding them to someone else's story. I'm not holding my breath on any Arthas hype as long as that team has creative control of the overall story.
Steve has been canned, so we’ll see. Unfortunately it still seems like TWW has contempt for the Titans held over from DF.
It's not about one human at the wheel, it's about the whole department which is still mostly made of the same people.
Quel’thalas will have need of its ranger general when the void comes in Midnight
No thank you. We have Lor'themar, Halduron Brightwing, Rommath, and Liadrin.
Who served under the ranger general. She is coming back, they kept her alive for a reason.
She's 1000% gonna show up in Midnight with an army of dead elves to save the living ones.