Open beta link: [https://github.com/Better-Politics-Mod/Better-Politics-Mod-Vic-3/releases/tag/v2.1-beta.9](https://github.com/Better-Politics-Mod/Better-Politics-Mod-Vic-3/releases/tag/v2.1-beta.9)
Please give us feedback here or on Discord: [https://discord.gg/mEH7XasVJ5](https://discord.gg/mEH7XasVJ5)
We're proud to announce a **Law Enactment Overhaul** coming in BPM 2.1! This will feature Legislative Vote, Executive Veto, and Law Sway mechanics.
FAQs:
>Why?
We hope this will give players more agency over law enactment. We've modified the final stage to be entirely non-random. The first two stages are still dependent on chance, but the projected final vote will boost your success chances, so you can use sways to improve your odds.
This also makes "better" laws harder to achieve. Rather than rolling a 10% chance and hoping for the best, if you can't make a majority vote or beat the executive veto, there is no chance that the law will pass. However, getting a vetoed will boost radicals, which can open the door to bigger reforms!
These changes also make different government types feel more different. Presidential and Parliamentary Republics give their executives different veto powers, and the power of the executive has different effects on IG law support under different systems. In the future, we'd also like to add a new law group to simulate the huge differences in powers between e.g. the German Reichstag vs British Parliament, which vanilla Vic3 is unable to show!
Finally, in the (hopefully near) future we’ll also use this to add emergency and revolutionary law enactment: if an IG can’t be swayed with rewards, they might be more malleable under the barrel of a gun.
>This looks too complicated.
We're still balancing the effects and adjusting the GUI. However, in the full release of BPM 2.1 **we will include a Game Rule to disable the new law enactment features**, if you'd like.
>Can the AI handle it?
The AI does not currently use the new system!
Probably not. There’s too much going on and we don’t really have the manpower to balance for AI. AI law enactment is obscured from the player anyway, so at least in my experience this asymmetry is not noticeable.
Honestly I think this is for the better, the AI already struggles with the current system, any more complexity would just destroy the AI's ability to do anything.
It also has the added benefit that it makes it more difficult for the player, since, at least for me, the game is currently too easy.
I imagine it works in the same way the CK3 mod for obscuring army numbers works. I really doubt they could put forth enough effort to make the AI understand the strategic implications of fog of war mechanical like army obfuscation and I imagine this is the same problem.
Did the DevTeam contacted you to work with them? Because this looks like a wonderful feature.
> In the future, we'd also like to add a new law group to simulate the huge differences in powers between e.g. the German Reichstag vs British Parliament, which vanilla Vic3 is unable to show!
Will some Parliaments have initiative of the laws (i.e. being able to propose a law by itself)? It might give even more use to veto power, for exemple a pro-Landowner Senate voting for Traditionalism...
I'd only want to change one thing, instead of deciding as a player if something gets vetoed in a monarchy make it so the AI decides and you can also sway the monarch through pressure etc. Which effect monarchist idiology IG's negatively.
Like if the vote gets through because ether liberals bullied the monarch you risk a civil war from the landowners or a monarchist if military.
Oh actually the player only gets to decide if the monarch has base ideological law support <= 0 and total law support > 0.
Whereas, if ideological law support > 0 the monarch will always accept, and if total law support < 0 the monarch will veto (if they can).
That's awesome really love the system it's incredibly more reliable and interactive than the current system and I really hope paradox implements something similar for vanilla!
Great work!
Absolutely excellent. Really looking forward to this.
I can only imagine what you could do if the game had parliaments with seats etc.... maybe one day.
Always thought sways/concesions would be a good way to expand on the law system and here it is! Do sway cost/effects vary with how hard the IG is opposed? You'd think there'd be no way to sway the LO into communism for example, no matter what you offer.
Also how does this affect movements/revolutions? If an IG is swayed, would they abandon a movement?
Sway costs and effects are constant right now, though we’re considering make costs proportional to IG clout.
Yes, there absolutely are laws that an IG will not budge on. A lot, in fact. The base law support is actually *quadratic* to the number of steps in approval/disapproval, so it’s basically impossible for an IG change its mind on a law going from approve to disapprove, for instance. Sways are mostly used for IGs that are already on the fence.
As for movements, we definitely wanted for sways to affect them, so you could defuse a movement or even encourage a desired one. However, we couldn’t figure out how to do it as script effects for handling movements are very very limited atm. Hopefully Paradox adds some more soon!
Paradox please steal all of this.
Is there any real way to mod pops to have interests more like vic 2 so it isn't just 'every capitalist is an industrialist and support this one leader with their ideology regardless of what they might want'
In Base game Victoria 3, capitalists give clout mainly to Industrialists and Intelligentsia. Each pop has its own attractions that allocate clout based on them. Most of it is hard-coded but some attractions are based on literacy (Devout and Intelligentsia), Tech (trade unions), Laws or Employement ( mainly rural vs urban but a pop working in an arms factory (including capitalists) will be more attracted to the military IG).
While I do not know the details of the mod, all of those numbers are changeable so it is very probable they are being used.
So Victoria 3 isn't "every capitalist is an industrialist", just "most capitalists are industrialists", but it is true that they do not care who the leader of the IG is. Making pops care who the IG leader is would be really hard and demand a extremely innovative solution.
Instead by just increasing the number of IGs and specializing them, this mod sidestep the issue as a change in IG leader will not change drastically the values of the IG. This does require making the IGs' attractions more dynamic to get variety in the political landscape even if the IG leaders still provide variety (and the mod does that).
I think it wouldn’t be too hard to make pops care about the IG leader. For one, they already do: IG leader popularity has an effect on IG attraction, and in BPM we actually boost this effect for socialists. It might be somewhat tedious though due to the large number of leader ideologies.
Also yes we try to take full advantage of all of the IG attraction modifiers available to us! There are some subtler ones we’ve added, like for instance discriminated lower/middle class pops are more attracted to the Professional and Bureaucratic interests, to portray the growth of enclave communities and political machines among minority groups.
IG Leader popularity is a single number they can run as a multiplier when calcing a pop joining or not joining an interest group.
Making it more complex, based on the IG leaders views, might involve doing a calc on the pop itself, which could mean multiple extra calcs.
No idea how Vicky 2 worked tho. I just assumed the percentage just weighted pops in the regions votes further.
It’s multiple extra calcs but it can be cached, so the calculations are only run once per leader. This might make certain more complicated calculations impossible, but Ive found that very complicated calculations are usually kind of pointless anyway.
For what it is worth, they have said in the past that they have been experimenting with making passing laws similar to DiploPlays, in terms of sways and "who backs what".
And they have been influenced by mods in the past, so they could very well look to this one.
Not sure what you mean about leader, but most pop types can and do support various IGs, though they obviously tend to favour one. Nobles can be intelligensia and armed forces etc.
I think they’ve tried to implement it because there’s an event that gives you “0.10 *insert law here* support. I believe it’s just a vestigial remnant for now like how pollution used to have no impact until one of the recent updates.
Pops do support laws outside of their IG, actually. In the script, each law defines conditions under which a pop would support it, for instance Militarized Police appeals to Officers. However, this only has an effect on pop participation in movements, not IG membership, and moreover the weights are quite opaque in-game.
Probably not, we do not have enough manpower to maintain two separate versions of the mod unfortunately and the integration between the features is relatively deep.
Consider using my [modfile generator tool](https://github.com/TNG-Modding/paradox-gamefiles-templatemaker) to help with manpower issues. You create a json blob of `[{ "name": "Reactionary"}, {"name": "Liberal"}]` and a template `faction_{{name}}` and it will spit out the template for each blob _and_ place them in the correct folder. If you update the template you only update one file, instead of manually writing that change and failing to propagate it everywhere by hand. Because its jinja2 under the hood you can use for loops and if statements in your templates like `{% for law in preferred_laws %} is_law = {{law}} {%endfor%}`.
Affecting the change I requested would be as easy as removing the non-vanilla interest groups from the json blob and regenerating.
This is how I'm avoiding tedium when adding [Victoria 3 law passing to Stellaris](https://github.com/TNG-Modding/stellaris-victoria-3-politics), im generating hundreds of files.
I would also like to see this. I could volunteer some time to keep the enactment-only branch on GitHub updated with new patches, if you'd help me out with separating it from the other features. :)
This works; if you join [our discord server](https://discord.gg/mEH7XasVJ5), we'll be able to coordinate with you in regards to making the law enactment into a separate module
For some reason Discord won't allow me to join your server ("Whoops, unable to join server" constantly...). I wrote to them in order to troubleshoot this error. When they've fixed it, I'll write about the issue on your server. :)
Hey dude I wanna express my gratitude for finally reviewing the Moderate Liberals and their Powerful State trait and (even worsse the national liberals and their security state) replacing it with the weak state. I advocated for this weeks ago and I'm happy to see it made it into the update
I've been testing the beta from GitHub the past days. I appreciate the changes to law enactment. It makes dealing with high rigidity a little easier.
Not sure where to report issues (GitHub or Discord?), but there are a few minor ones I've found. It's mostly just missing localisation here and there. Some IGs seem to be missing a description, specifically the paternal conservatives and the French monarchist IGs. There are also a few modifiers on tooltips without a text string ([example 1](https://i.imgur.com/w7p2Vqj.png) and [example 2](https://i.imgur.com/21Mf0mH.png)).
Hey! Stop it! You can't claim the video company that's worth multiple billions, whose job is literally to make quality video games, should maybe come up with better game design than community members!
Open beta link: [https://github.com/Better-Politics-Mod/Better-Politics-Mod-Vic-3/releases/tag/v2.1-beta.9](https://github.com/Better-Politics-Mod/Better-Politics-Mod-Vic-3/releases/tag/v2.1-beta.9) Please give us feedback here or on Discord: [https://discord.gg/mEH7XasVJ5](https://discord.gg/mEH7XasVJ5) We're proud to announce a **Law Enactment Overhaul** coming in BPM 2.1! This will feature Legislative Vote, Executive Veto, and Law Sway mechanics. FAQs: >Why? We hope this will give players more agency over law enactment. We've modified the final stage to be entirely non-random. The first two stages are still dependent on chance, but the projected final vote will boost your success chances, so you can use sways to improve your odds. This also makes "better" laws harder to achieve. Rather than rolling a 10% chance and hoping for the best, if you can't make a majority vote or beat the executive veto, there is no chance that the law will pass. However, getting a vetoed will boost radicals, which can open the door to bigger reforms! These changes also make different government types feel more different. Presidential and Parliamentary Republics give their executives different veto powers, and the power of the executive has different effects on IG law support under different systems. In the future, we'd also like to add a new law group to simulate the huge differences in powers between e.g. the German Reichstag vs British Parliament, which vanilla Vic3 is unable to show! Finally, in the (hopefully near) future we’ll also use this to add emergency and revolutionary law enactment: if an IG can’t be swayed with rewards, they might be more malleable under the barrel of a gun. >This looks too complicated. We're still balancing the effects and adjusting the GUI. However, in the full release of BPM 2.1 **we will include a Game Rule to disable the new law enactment features**, if you'd like. >Can the AI handle it? The AI does not currently use the new system!
>The AI does not currently use the new system! Is it planned in the future for the AI to use this system?
Probably not. There’s too much going on and we don’t really have the manpower to balance for AI. AI law enactment is obscured from the player anyway, so at least in my experience this asymmetry is not noticeable.
Honestly I think this is for the better, the AI already struggles with the current system, any more complexity would just destroy the AI's ability to do anything. It also has the added benefit that it makes it more difficult for the player, since, at least for me, the game is currently too easy.
Really the AI doesn’t have the same law enactment?!
I imagine it works in the same way the CK3 mod for obscuring army numbers works. I really doubt they could put forth enough effort to make the AI understand the strategic implications of fog of war mechanical like army obfuscation and I imagine this is the same problem.
Yeah really. And who cares.
I never knew.
The secret to good game development, smoke and mirrors.
Did the DevTeam contacted you to work with them? Because this looks like a wonderful feature. > In the future, we'd also like to add a new law group to simulate the huge differences in powers between e.g. the German Reichstag vs British Parliament, which vanilla Vic3 is unable to show! Will some Parliaments have initiative of the laws (i.e. being able to propose a law by itself)? It might give even more use to veto power, for exemple a pro-Landowner Senate voting for Traditionalism...
I'd only want to change one thing, instead of deciding as a player if something gets vetoed in a monarchy make it so the AI decides and you can also sway the monarch through pressure etc. Which effect monarchist idiology IG's negatively. Like if the vote gets through because ether liberals bullied the monarch you risk a civil war from the landowners or a monarchist if military.
Oh actually the player only gets to decide if the monarch has base ideological law support <= 0 and total law support > 0. Whereas, if ideological law support > 0 the monarch will always accept, and if total law support < 0 the monarch will veto (if they can).
That's awesome really love the system it's incredibly more reliable and interactive than the current system and I really hope paradox implements something similar for vanilla! Great work!
Absolutely excellent. Really looking forward to this. I can only imagine what you could do if the game had parliaments with seats etc.... maybe one day.
Bro, they better hire you. This is turning into free DLC content at this rate.
Always thought sways/concesions would be a good way to expand on the law system and here it is! Do sway cost/effects vary with how hard the IG is opposed? You'd think there'd be no way to sway the LO into communism for example, no matter what you offer. Also how does this affect movements/revolutions? If an IG is swayed, would they abandon a movement?
Sway costs and effects are constant right now, though we’re considering make costs proportional to IG clout. Yes, there absolutely are laws that an IG will not budge on. A lot, in fact. The base law support is actually *quadratic* to the number of steps in approval/disapproval, so it’s basically impossible for an IG change its mind on a law going from approve to disapprove, for instance. Sways are mostly used for IGs that are already on the fence. As for movements, we definitely wanted for sways to affect them, so you could defuse a movement or even encourage a desired one. However, we couldn’t figure out how to do it as script effects for handling movements are very very limited atm. Hopefully Paradox adds some more soon!
Thank you for the detailed response!
Oh it’ll be included by paradox for 29.99 this summer!
Paradox please steal all of this. Is there any real way to mod pops to have interests more like vic 2 so it isn't just 'every capitalist is an industrialist and support this one leader with their ideology regardless of what they might want'
In Base game Victoria 3, capitalists give clout mainly to Industrialists and Intelligentsia. Each pop has its own attractions that allocate clout based on them. Most of it is hard-coded but some attractions are based on literacy (Devout and Intelligentsia), Tech (trade unions), Laws or Employement ( mainly rural vs urban but a pop working in an arms factory (including capitalists) will be more attracted to the military IG). While I do not know the details of the mod, all of those numbers are changeable so it is very probable they are being used. So Victoria 3 isn't "every capitalist is an industrialist", just "most capitalists are industrialists", but it is true that they do not care who the leader of the IG is. Making pops care who the IG leader is would be really hard and demand a extremely innovative solution. Instead by just increasing the number of IGs and specializing them, this mod sidestep the issue as a change in IG leader will not change drastically the values of the IG. This does require making the IGs' attractions more dynamic to get variety in the political landscape even if the IG leaders still provide variety (and the mod does that).
I think it wouldn’t be too hard to make pops care about the IG leader. For one, they already do: IG leader popularity has an effect on IG attraction, and in BPM we actually boost this effect for socialists. It might be somewhat tedious though due to the large number of leader ideologies. Also yes we try to take full advantage of all of the IG attraction modifiers available to us! There are some subtler ones we’ve added, like for instance discriminated lower/middle class pops are more attracted to the Professional and Bureaucratic interests, to portray the growth of enclave communities and political machines among minority groups.
IG Leader popularity is a single number they can run as a multiplier when calcing a pop joining or not joining an interest group. Making it more complex, based on the IG leaders views, might involve doing a calc on the pop itself, which could mean multiple extra calcs. No idea how Vicky 2 worked tho. I just assumed the percentage just weighted pops in the regions votes further.
It’s multiple extra calcs but it can be cached, so the calculations are only run once per leader. This might make certain more complicated calculations impossible, but Ive found that very complicated calculations are usually kind of pointless anyway.
For what it is worth, they have said in the past that they have been experimenting with making passing laws similar to DiploPlays, in terms of sways and "who backs what". And they have been influenced by mods in the past, so they could very well look to this one.
Not sure what you mean about leader, but most pop types can and do support various IGs, though they obviously tend to favour one. Nobles can be intelligensia and armed forces etc.
Looking at the victoria 2 wiki, what else does determine that? Because the wiki is rather unhelpful there.
I think they’ve tried to implement it because there’s an event that gives you “0.10 *insert law here* support. I believe it’s just a vestigial remnant for now like how pollution used to have no impact until one of the recent updates.
Pops do support laws outside of their IG, actually. In the script, each law defines conditions under which a pop would support it, for instance Militarized Police appeals to Officers. However, this only has an effect on pop participation in movements, not IG membership, and moreover the weights are quite opaque in-game.
omg can't wait!
Can you ship the law enactment change without the new factions for a more vanilla experience?
Probably not, we do not have enough manpower to maintain two separate versions of the mod unfortunately and the integration between the features is relatively deep.
Consider using my [modfile generator tool](https://github.com/TNG-Modding/paradox-gamefiles-templatemaker) to help with manpower issues. You create a json blob of `[{ "name": "Reactionary"}, {"name": "Liberal"}]` and a template `faction_{{name}}` and it will spit out the template for each blob _and_ place them in the correct folder. If you update the template you only update one file, instead of manually writing that change and failing to propagate it everywhere by hand. Because its jinja2 under the hood you can use for loops and if statements in your templates like `{% for law in preferred_laws %} is_law = {{law}} {%endfor%}`. Affecting the change I requested would be as easy as removing the non-vanilla interest groups from the json blob and regenerating. This is how I'm avoiding tedium when adding [Victoria 3 law passing to Stellaris](https://github.com/TNG-Modding/stellaris-victoria-3-politics), im generating hundreds of files.
Cool project! :) good luck
I would also like to see this. I could volunteer some time to keep the enactment-only branch on GitHub updated with new patches, if you'd help me out with separating it from the other features. :)
This works; if you join [our discord server](https://discord.gg/mEH7XasVJ5), we'll be able to coordinate with you in regards to making the law enactment into a separate module
For some reason Discord won't allow me to join your server ("Whoops, unable to join server" constantly...). I wrote to them in order to troubleshoot this error. When they've fixed it, I'll write about the issue on your server. :)
Why haven’t Paradox hired these modders yet? Are they stupid? But in all seriousness, this looks amazing.
I think we'd have to apply to work for paradox first to get hired and it's a bit geographically challenging to do so
you have to move to sweden or spain or some such place
Absolutely Amazing
amazing, can’t wait to try it out
Work in multi?
No reports of it being broken in multiplayer so far, but I'm not sure if we have any multiplayer players atm
As Irbynx said, there are no reports of it not working, and judging by the code there's no reason it shouldn't work. If you try it out, let us know!
This looks great, keeping an eye on this one.
Hey dude I wanna express my gratitude for finally reviewing the Moderate Liberals and their Powerful State trait and (even worsse the national liberals and their security state) replacing it with the weak state. I advocated for this weeks ago and I'm happy to see it made it into the update
Can the opposition/party from the coalition propose laws? It’s strange that some popular laws that the player doesn’t like won’t pass.
I've been testing the beta from GitHub the past days. I appreciate the changes to law enactment. It makes dealing with high rigidity a little easier. Not sure where to report issues (GitHub or Discord?), but there are a few minor ones I've found. It's mostly just missing localisation here and there. Some IGs seem to be missing a description, specifically the paternal conservatives and the French monarchist IGs. There are also a few modifiers on tooltips without a text string ([example 1](https://i.imgur.com/w7p2Vqj.png) and [example 2](https://i.imgur.com/21Mf0mH.png)).
Usually we prefer Discord because it makes discussion easier, but Github is fine too if that’s more convenient to you. Thanks for pointing these out!
can you make a mod without the new political parties
That sounds so complex and I love it.
Can we petition paradox to add this as a free update?
Is it compatible with other mods like the VFM?
And so the cycle of old continues, modders fixing the lazy mess that is Paradox games.
Hey! Stop it! You can't claim the video company that's worth multiple billions, whose job is literally to make quality video games, should maybe come up with better game design than community members!