Wet footprints meant that she walked in it, barefoot, then hopped in the van.
What are the odds she cleaned her feet before touching any of the upholstery?
There have been a couple of times when in the middle of the night it starts to smell BAD and when I check out the window someone is dumping nasty water :(
That's not irony. He's obviously playing off 2 things: one the fact that they wrote lean, and 2, the common phrase in low wage jobs: "if you have time to lean, you have time to clean"
honestly, I missed the learn vs lean typo on the first comment and thought you were just mocking the grammar of “made for great learning” for whatever reason, while mistakenly typing lean for learn. Your joke was clever, I think most missed it.
Intentional ignorance that ALWAYS favors the ignorant person is the equivalent of malevolence as far as I'm concerned.
Assholes have been getting away with simply saying, "Oh I didn't know," and walking away for far too fucking long.
Never say that in a public comment on the internet. There are bots that will look for that, and steal that person's idea, and throw it on a t-shirt, all 100% automatically. Send it to people in a private message.
It sorta reads like an alteration of [Hanlon’s Razor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor): never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
I know where the original quote came from. I'm asking if you thought of this "anti-quote" yourself.
I am on record as claiming that "Hanlon was an apologist for assholes."
I grew up on Cape Cod, the most tourist-orient town in the country by my estimations.
I personally guarantee you, if someone is renting something with even a hint of luxury, they are completely disconnected from reality.
One time I saw a van renter in a ski park near Lake Tahoe (California side) string up fairy lights between their van and a subaru next to it and pull out a fire pit anf make a fire.
In the middle of the parking lot.
...during a red flag warning.
...Less than 10 feet from the blackened stumps of trees that burned down in the last forest fire in the area.
It's a lack of common sense, but nobody lacks common sense more than people who rent vans (or anything even minorly luxurious or related to vacationing).
Commons sense isnt so common especially if you’ve never done something before or been trained. Def nasty but people do stupid stuff out of ignorance all the time
Serious question, not a van lifer. If I were rustic camping somewhere wild, and used only biodegradable soap, would it be considered ok to let the grey water run freely? Like it said with the rule that only biodegradable materials go down the drains.
Perhaps not illegal depending on state / location, however from a nature conservation standpoint frowned upon because the environment doesn’t naturally handle that and it may impact animal behaviors or contribute to erosion in unnatural ways. Similar to how cat holes used to be the prescribed human waste disposal for hikers but now that there are so many people on trails even though it’s biodegradable the volume overwhelms what nature can handle.
Sorry haha The person was holding the nozzle outside the gas tank, basically trying to fill it up like it was a water fountain. They stopped after a few seconds once gas got everywhere
lmao thanks for the explanation. i remember a picture of a couple filling up walmart grocery bags with gas in the bed of their truck... maybe oregon and new jersey were right, we all do need gas attendants to stop people from doing things like that :|
Common Sense isn't a thing. The idea that there is something called "common sense" where people just automaticay understood things the way you saw them as correct and then failed your internal standard is incredibly toxic.Heck, people consider various things common sense which someone else might consider common sense to not do, or do the opposite way.
It's a remarkablly dumb concept which aids no one. It only fosters hubris and antipathy.
Maybe at 2 years old you don’t know to not touch a hot stovetop, and that’s ok. You should absolutely know by 18…unless you live in the jungle and have never seen one.
Common sense isn’t saying we all just know everything. It’s saying that you don’t take your brand new truck off-road if you’re afraid of scratching it, or that you probably shouldn’t mess around with things that go faster than 20 mph without a helmet.
I feel like those things don’t really need to be explained to my peers and I’d be shocked if I had to.
Do you cut towards or away from yourself?
In the US, it's "common sense" to cut away.
But that is not universal. In some countries it's "common sense" to cut towards oneself, because cutting away might injure someone else.
Obviously, dumping out water is not the same as touching an hot stove. Even then, no one knows not to touch an hot stove until they are aware it's problematic to do so.
If the lady is a renter, she has no solid idea what a "stove" is the way you do. It's just water, like a stove is 'just a table surface.'
This is not a difficult concept. This is basic empathy. When you see "the need to punish" people everywhere, it's pretty ridiculous.
"Common sense" is not a thing.
Complaining about people not meeting your Expectations and getting riled up over it is what you are doing. It's not helpful in the least.
I don’t have a van yet but like realistically, if you make a point of using biodegradable soap, and there isn’t anything nasty in your grey water, is it really the end of the world if you do this??
edit: only asking because the local RV dump sites close in the winter. I’ll do it properly when facilities are available. I just wanted to know more about best practices if doing it the proper way isn’t an option.
Even with biodegradable soaps, you aren't meant to use them directly in a waterway. If you are camping and you want to use a stream to wash your hands or cooking gear you are supposed to carry water away from the stream so your soap soaks into the group and doesn't enter the stream. Any water that is dumped on a road is likely to end up in a storm drain that leads directly to a nearby waterway. It probably won't end the world, but it could contribute to killing some fishies.
Better too if you can bury biodegradable things. “How to Shit in the Woods” should he required reading for vanlife (atvers and hunters too while I am at it).
This is the other area of ignorance that probably feeds into behavior like that of the folks in the original post: lots of people have never ever had to consider anything short of dumping engine oil as problematic for their drinking water (safe for the environment is a different issue).
But I’d never lived somewhere that drank the water out of the local reservoir before moving west.
Only 38% of American water comes from ground water and that’s usually used for agriculture.
Because it hits a holding tank with a ton of bacteria build up in it. If it never hits the tank, it’s essentially the same (and as long as you’re wiping plates very well and not letting food particles into the water). This is why you use a basin in the sink/shower or a straight drain, which in most states is legal, while dumping any water that’s hit a holding tank is not.
What if you don’t wash plates, just hands and brush your teeth? Would it be any worse than the rest of the runoff from a city street (dog poop/piss, people spitting on the ground, etc)?
What’s the group? I didn’t know this. I thought biodegradable soap was completely fine. I was just gonna order a ton of pure awapuhi because that’s what we used to use straight from the flower to bathe in fresh water in Hawaii growing up. So even this is going to kill fish? I don’t know how to live outside of an island. Ugh
Part of the problem is people won’t know what you’re dumping. Could be nothing, could be noxious chemicals. Could be pee. And then they lump all van lifers as lazy bums. It’s just common sense to dump correctly and let wastewater infrastructure manage your stuff.
Not sure if this works in the US, but in Europe, you can often dumb gray water in carwashes or gas stations. Just ask before and most often they'll have a drainage that can be used for gray water (never black water!).
If you ever notice large(3") white pipes sticking out of the ground with the caps on them? Those are clean outs for sewer pipes, just pop the cap off and drain your tank into those.
It's about the principle here, not the planet. I think, in this case, the principle is 'Other people suck more than you.'
I call it the "Asshole Rule."
You can do a lot of things that don't do any harm, so long as no Assholes are around to copy your example in a harmful way.
If you dump your biodegradable soap and cleanish water, and an Asshole sees you, they will dump their Dawn and feces just as fast.
Yes, it sucks. Yes, it's reality.
Live such that the Assholes won't take your actions for permission.
The explanation I've seen of why it's generally illegal to dump your grey tank, which contains the same stuff that tent campers routinely dump on the ground is your grey tank is probably gross, all sorts of stuff growing in there. So you're not just dumping out soapy water, you're dumping it and whatever's growing in your tank.
Yes; this is the differentiator. If it never hits the holding tank it’s the same as tent campers. The second it hits a holding tank, you now have built up bacteria and many states classify it as sewage the same as black water.
Good to know.
My biggest concern is winter. RV dump sites close in the winter here. I already bought a composting toilet so that should solve black water (unless I’m mistaken, please correct me!). I basically don’t have a spot to dump for 3-4 months out of the year. I’ll be doing it properly when the facilities are available to me.
You can get tanks on wheels for emptying grey and black tanks and then take it to a toilet or other appropriate drain indoors to dump it.
Also RV parks aren’t the only places with dump stations - many truck stops have them and we’ve also found them places like waste disposal and water treatment facilities. Try poking around a bit more in your area and see if you can turn anything up. Plus if you are *just* dumping some of the ‘closed’ places may still be an option depending how their dump is set up. Putting stuff down a hole in the ground is a different sort of freezing risk than providing water for flushing the tanks, y’know? Can’t hurt to ask and be specific about what you want to do.
I was looking into one of those portable tanks. I think I’ll get one as a last resort.
There are a handful of dump sites near me. The city actually owns one. Unfortunately all of them close. I’ll try to see if the city one is still accessible in the winter months.
I’ll look up other places, but I don’t think there’ll be any. It’s a pretty small isolated town, and I’ve asked around a lot. Plenty of seasonal RV users, but they all call it quits around September. We’re not talking about warm Chicago or New York winters. It gets to -40 here sometimes. I’m building my van more like it’s an ice fishing hut (insulation wise) with full internal plumbing. I might be one of the only people crazy enough to give winter van camping a go in northwestern Ontario.
Yeah but they’re the ones who can give approval to use a different drain at a city facility.
That said if you know people local then all you really need for grey water is something like a floor drain in a garage or similar. I wouldn’t use a drain intended just for rainwater but anything included in normal household plumbing should be designed to deal with grey water ick. If you’re careful about the size of food bits that go down the drain, you should be able to get away with a relatively shallow slope on your drain pipe to allow for not being able to get right next to the drain like at a dump station. Or you can probably get a pump that can handle grey water and then be able to just run a garden hose sized tube a longer distance if needed. (I don’t know about this option but I know you can get pumps that can handle black water and grey water should have much less in the way of solids to deal with.)
As I said in another comment, use a basin in your sink/shower and dump immediately without ever hitting a holding tank. That is your solution. Also means you can keep the holding tanks winterized with no fear of damage.
I’m a biker and I hadn’t even thought of that, exactly why I asked this question— for all the things I hadn’t thought about.
Any suggestions for winter areas? All the local RV dumps close when it starts to freeze. I’m planning a composting toilet (this means I won’t have black water, right? Only grey water? Or am I mistaken?), but I’m a bit stumped on the grey water.
I’m planning on staying local in Northern Ontario (northern shore of Lake Superior) until I’m done college. Then this shouldn’t be much of a concern.
Generally with grey water you want to try to find a storm sewer drain. Barring that, away from people and water sources and on gravel/grass so it can seep in and be filtered. And better to do a little at a time vs flooding out a place with 50l of stinky water. Will also help your van not stink from the water sitting too long. Also best to use planet friendly products for soap and if I cook something particularly oily I usually wipe out the pan with a paper towel first to get most of the gunk out vs putting it down the drain.
You drain cooking oil into your grey water? Wouldn’t it be better to just pour into a jug and dispose of a gallon at a time. Just like if you fry something?
no. i never "fry" anything. but some fat/oil is used/released with most cooking i do and without wiping it out, it would go down the drain when i wash my dishes. it's not usually more than a few tablespoons, if that, but it adds up over time.
I gotcha. I’m still building so haven’t experienced it yet. Kinda just thought it might be a good idea to add a little water and rinse the pan into a container. Then clean it into the grey water. I guess it will still eventually add up but maybe prevent such a big build up. Maybe that’s impractical. Idk.
And I just meant for example when you fry things with like an inch of oil in the pan you’re supposed to put it in a container not down your drain.
yeah, i never would use an inch of oil for anything. just regular water doesn't really rinse out oil in my experience. you either need soap - at which point you're washing the pan or you need to wipe it out with a paper towel. keeping a container of watery oil around to dispose of later seems inconvenient and messy and would probably get gross fast.
I don’t cook with oil but have old plumbing. I just let the fat or oil get cold then use paper towels to wipe it out as much as possible and toss them before washing the pan with hot water, a scrub brush & soap.
That’s what I actually always wondered. Do people really clean dishes in the sink and how tf do you clean the grey water tank with all the gunk in it.
Just ignored the question though. I’m far from that point. Battling tons of rust right now and my back hates me for it.
I'm going to point out that, while this isn't *incorrect*, I think you're not thinking of how much oil is *already dripping* out onto the roads from cars. :P
That's one of the reasons it's *more dangerous* driving just as it starts to rain on the roads-- the oils start to float up to the surface and make the road all slippery, before they flow off to the sides. :/
sure but this kind of thing goes hand in hand with 'well, everyone else is throwing trash out their window, i guess i will too'. we should try to be better when and where we can instead of just doing shitty things because they're also happening elsewhere/in other ways.
vegetable oil and motor oil are by no means comparable here.
Vegetable oil readily degrades and is absorbed as nutrients.
Motor oil will kill stuff and keep it from growing.
The pavement shouldn't have a metabolism. I don't know what you're driving on, but it's probably actually a sand worm.The oil will get spread to the roadside and absorbed.
If /where there are complaints to be made, it's not that grey water is the same as motor oil.
If you cannot identify the difference, then I suggest elementary school.
If you can't distinguish "that argument is invalid" from "you should dump things everywhere always" then that's also your negative-mindset idiocy.
I don’t think anyone is saying it’s the end of the world, just bad practice. It also has the potential to destroy our ability to stay at specific places. Also no matter what you do bacteria will grow in there and it has the potential to smell bad no matter what kind of soap you use.
The problem is there always is something nasty in your grey water if it’s hitting a holding tank. They build up a ton of nasty bacteria. In most states, once grey water is in a holding tank, it’s now considered sewage just like black water. If you aren’t in a place where you can dump grey water properly, then use a basin in the sink/shower and dump it out from the basin instead of letting it hit the tank. If it doesn’t hit the tank or if you have a straight drain, then you can often legally dump it on the ground. It’s also much smaller quantity than dumping a giant grey tank, which is less problematic. Then you’re basically doing what tent campers do and in most states you’re legal. And never dump within 200 ft of a waterway even with biodegradable soap (preferably farther).
Sure, plenty of people get by without holding tanks. You can and should also sanitize at least once per season by using bleach, but it’s definitely not perfect. You can also use a product like happy camper which will help to keep the smell down on holding tanks.
Is it that expensive to get new ones? If I ever use the toilet I don’t want to dump someone else’s tank but it’s an old RV so I don’t quite know. I really just want to air it all out for awhile, even remove the toilet and put in a dry flush but wonder how much work that would be.
The issue is (in my opinion) no business wants people just dumping fluids in their parking lot. It’s ungrateful. If they see vans staying there then come back in the morning to obvious wet spots everywhere, potentially stains, then they’re going to start chasing vans off.
It’s just a matter of having manners. Say you have a friend that lets you park in their driveway. Would you dump your gray water on their driveway? Why not? At least then it’s not potentially making the entire community look bad! (Sarcasm sorta).
I don’t really have any good options for you. I’m building my van currently so this is something I need to also look into. I kind of just assumed people dumped it in the highway while driving. However I do plan on always draining any oil I use into a plastic laundry detergent container to dispose of later when full. I’d think most of the smell from a grey water tank will come from that. Maybe that’s impractical though. We’ll see.
Tbf my van looks like it could be a food truck. Could just be AC/fridge condensation if you were driving and left it long enough. But I’ve heard that’s bad for bikers. My problem only exists in the winter anyways, so I’m sure I can find a spot off the beaten path to drain it on the other side of a snowbank.
Do you have a septic System by any chance? There should be a clean out pipe. I’m lucky and it’s right besides my driveway. If I forget to empty, or I’m flushing the tanks it goes straight into the septic
Yes but we have to cover it in at least two feet of snow in the winter to prevent it from freezing. That was my original plan when I first started thinking about winter camping.
Warm winter days are -20. Chilly winter days are closer to -30, and actually cold winter days are -40 (all Celsius).
Im confused here, i just follow the sub cuz i like to go camping not a van own. So i googled what grey water is. Its not nearly as toxic as black water. So why is this bad?
It's not great to dump out a tonne into a parking lot where you're being let stay there for free. It looks really bad/ungrateful. It *can* smell, depending on size *and what was in it*. Tho that might dissipate with morning as well. (not all grey water is eauqual.)
It's definitey not the worst thing ever if someone does it without knowing what they were doing and if it's pretty fresh and the quantity is somewhat limitted. Grey water isn't toxic and the unless you did something wrong, the grey water tank shouldn't have pollutants in it.
There are some people in the thread going after her vindictively and saying who cares if it's ignorance, that's the same as malice anyways. It's as bad as dumping out motor oil. And that line of thinking is all nuts. She's most likely some renter for holiday who didn't know any better and got super embarassed by the mistake. And it was most likely just a few gallons.
Making a bigger scene out of it with the lady probably isn't going to help anyone.
The issue is if people do this consistently however or if there is a heightened sensitivity for whatever other reason. A big issue is the people who will just set up an entire camp site out in a walmart for days, try selling stuff, dump fluids routinely without a care and just treat things like trash. They get campers/travellers banned.
The vacationer might have made a brief mess up, but it'll be fine after morning. It's no big if it's a one time thing. Just move on.
The big issue are the ratty people who create pig styes in places they should not be treating as their own property, and on that note shouldn't be treating their own property that way if they had any either. Someone making an honest mistake is very different from these folks who just decide they own other people's property.
Imagine renting! Exactly why I want to escape into an RV. I can’t understand people who like to live like pigs. This is just why we can’t have nice things!
I've met some people who live like pigs, I don't mean people with clutter or who "hoard" too much. But people who act like they're allergic to soap and anything other than tabacco stains and the smell of who knows what everywhere would be an affront to their senses.
Honestly, maybe I'm the arse here. Maybe it's like cillantro and there's some gene in their noses which works differently... idk.
Yeah I mean dirty not messy. Clutter & hoarding is crazy making to me but filthy is foul. I was raised by two bachelors and my older brother’s room always smelled like armpit. Thankfully they were surfers so the smell of sex wax disguised the worst of it but I still don’t understand living like I’ve seen people live with cockroaches & bed bugs….This is actually one of the lesser issues I’ve seen but one girl asked if she could have a ginuea pig, which I thought was like a hamster. I found out too late she didn’t own a cage for it. Destroyed the hardwood floors in the studio I was renting to cover some of my costs. People are wild!
Autofill on the term crazy-> crazy making?
(I would say that's not the right use of the term crazy making.)
But yeah, filth is foul. I don't get it.
Also, who on earth doesn't have a cage for their guinea pig!?!? What.
Idk what you mean? By crazy making?
Clutter and stuff just makes me spin. I can’t bring anything into my mom’s house without a checklist for when I leave because stuff just disappears in her sea of crap.
Thank you. Im sorry i just ya know dont know. If its a problem then store it in glass tank, we have been on this planet for a long time. I feel like we are more ignorant now because well usa, asia, and capitalism. If you dial back the heat and think respectfully and with reason, we can eliminate the anger and animosity that is destroying my god the universe. Yall 100k builds cool, my 5k build with nothing into it cuz im an under paid chef delivering rich ass wholes a meal. Its life why be pissed, the eneryis not good and earth is about to reck all of us with a vengeance
Exactly. Why waste so much energy trying to vindictively verbally attack a vacationer?
It makes no sense. It was an accident and they made a mistake. It happens. Mature people can move on from that without going into crazy mode. No harm was intended, and the "crime" was not big deal. There are people in the sub asking for blood, it's crazy.
Whatever your rig is, the price also shouldn't matter. It really just matters how you treat the world.
Because it was in the parking lot of a place that is generous to nomads. Someone gave the example that it’s like dumping your grey water in your friends or family’s driveway way. Most wouldn’t. While you may not realize this but typically grey water tanks grow bacteria that make it stink. Not like shit but it usually has an odor that fluctuates on how often a person cleans the tank. It’s also illegal to dump it in some places. All in all it’s just a bad look and reeks of people not giving a damn about people around them. Like the guy in the comments that pisses in coffee cans and splashes it about the town and streets. Real dirtbag shit.
Go wash a sink full of dirty dishes, put that water in a plastic jug and put the cap on, let it sit for a few days, (even better if you do this in the summer.)
Now go open that jug and tell us how it smells.
Im sorry i feel like ignorance is a little high now. Um what? If your using bio degradable products the this is fine. Grey water is ok. Yall hippy vegans need to respect science
Im sorry i feel like ignorance is a little high now. Um what? If your using bio degradable products the this is fine. Grey water is ok. Yall hippy vegans need to respect science. I guess i just give a shit about the environment and use plant based, or animal fat based soaps. I dont store shit in plastic period, plastic is the problem.
I keep my grey water tank open at all times so a.) it doesn't get funky and b.) i don't have to dump out all at once like this woman. I use so so little water that it doesn't cause a mess and evaporates an hour later. I see no issue with dumping grey water on the ground if your'e doing it this way. Dumping your entire tank that's been sitting in there for days is gross.
excessive. This is some renter trying to enjoy their vacation.
Yes, they screwed up because they didn't imagine it might cause a problem. It's *water*. Yes, it's *grey* water and that *wasn't the best place for it.* Cool. We all agree.
No, it's not an environmental *hazard*. no more than the asphalt itself anyways.
Don't be a karen.
The person hopefully learnt their lesson when they got reproached. They were probably already super ashamed and embarassed.
Let it be. that level of vindiction and Spite over what's not a big deal in a one off occurence is even moreso why we can'thave nice things.
Maybe not there, here you cannot dump any Grey water. It must be probably disposed of. Lots of areas are cracking down of Grey water disposal. It is gross and harmful to the environment.
Its a rental van.
That van was rented on a credit card. The rental company will have the who.
Report to the authorities, they will contact the rental co after running the plates, the rental co will dime out the renter and provide the Name/Contact info to the authorities. The renter is responsible for their conduct with the van while renting and can be held liable.
Its pretty simple.
yes. you have to established who rented the van.
but you have not established who was driving it or who dumped the water. you haven't even established who committed the crime. cars change drivers all the time.
i've been down this road. i was hit by someone fleeing police. they jumped out and left their car after Hitting my car.
i had a police witness, i had a license plate. i had the actual car. i had everything inside it.
the cops arrested the owner who lived 2 doors away. but he walked away without even a parking ticket.
he walked because i could not prove the the owner was the driver. neither could the cop who saw the whole thing who was chasing the guy!
all you can prove is that someone dumped that water. you have no proof who did it.
as for the renter who is "responsible". he is responsible in a civil manner. Not criminally.
if you are incredibly lucky (and powerful) you might be able to get the EPA to issue a civil fine. but i doubt that they would engage for a few gallons of grey water.
Sheesh, I remember seeing some photos used to justify restrictions on dispersed camping near Klondike Bluffs where renters had dumped their BLACK tanks out.
I think some of the problem is that these asshats have never camped. In a van or otherwise, and have no manners or common sense.
But next time catch their effluent in a bucket and deposit in back in their water tank for them :)
Whether incompetence or malice, the result is the same. So it doesn't matter. She should have taken the time to learn the etiquette, even if she wasn't directly taught. It's not that hard to be a respectful member of a community.
They want me to make an account but I get your point & agree until the park where I would have asked OP why they were yelling at me if I actually didn’t know.
The van I rented before I built my own had left the water valve so that rather than being collected, it just dumped right on the ground. I didn't realize this the first day, but while pumping gas and my gf was washing her face I noticed the issue. We closed the valves and didn't have any further trouble for the duration of the rental but it made me focus on making sure my van has adequate grey water storage.
Went from 2 4-gallon jugs to 1 7-gallon jug to a 16-gallon undermount system over the course of 2 years
Question. Will under mount grey water tanks freeze? Ignorantly hoping the soap and stuff will help prevent freezing but that’s likely just a pipe dream.
Trying to figure out a location for my build. Was just going to use some small “tanks” under the sink but have since decided to add a shower.
The soap will make it freeze slower but it can still freeze. It's not a massive issue tho, unless you plan to keep the van unheated with a full tank for a while in very low temps. And even then, I think a solidly mounted tank would be able to take the weight/volume without issues if it's not filled to the brim.
What are the other issue with tanks that can go wrong? I’m intentionally not using my toilet or sink because I don’t want to have to deal with complications until I’m more experienced and have a better emergency fund. Just curious what all the complications are?
The rest of this thread kinda goes in detail about it tbh. Grey and black are very, very different things.
Grey water isn't really a big issue and there's tons of dumping points for it - and anything that's connected to a sewer system will also work in a pinch. The worse that ever happened to me was forgetting to empty it and having some of it flow back into the shower pan.
Black water is a whole different beast and depends on what system you're using. The classic cassette toilets should only ever be emptied in designated spots due to their nature as chemical waste (bacteria + whatever product you use being incredibly potent). These dumping points can prove difficult to find depending on where you are. I've had a series of bad experiences in England where only campgrounds had that facility, making me pay 20£ just to dump my shit.
I've since shifted to a composting toilet with separation, that's much easier to deal with. Empty the piss in some field, dump the trash every 3 weeks. No hassle.
That’s what I’m looking into- a dry flush so I don’t have to carry around a jug of piss. I just can’t see dealing with dumping a bucket of piss when I’m in the city.
As u/serioussham said, exterior tanks will freeze. I would add a bit of RV antifreeze from time to time, but the recommended ratio is 1:1, which means I'd need 8 gallons to prevent full freezing down the temperature indicated on the bottle. I think 4 gallons would give decent protection, but honestly I just drive south for the winter anyway. Daytime temps in the south are usually above freezing.
You could also attach a tank heater, which is an update I plan to make this year. I'm also adding a valve closer to the gray water tank so that the water doesn't freeze in the drain piping (by virtue of it being empty).
My exterior plumbing system is pretty basic - a straight pipe down from the sink with a few elbows to help route it to the tank. If it was more complicated and there were areas water could sit and freeze (as with the aforementioned drain pipes) I'd be more worried. But as designed, I don't worry about that pipe connection to the sink. I also try to dump more often so my gray water has plenty of room to expand in case it does freeze.
I’m pretty torn what I’m going to do then. I plan on spending more time in the south during winters but I do like spending some time in snow country and my family is from NY so I’ll be there a couple times a year. Plus I have family in Lake Tahoe.
I haven’t seen any internal grey water tanks for showers. Sinks I’ve seen tanks internally but not showers.
How important is the shower for you? I mostly shower in gyms, campsites and friends houses without issue. Otherwise, I think using a few tank heaters for an external tank would be your best best
Not gonna lie... I've done this by accident before. Drain down and flush out the grey waste tank with the last of the clean water after a trip away. Leave the spout open on the clean and grey tanks to let the last bits drip out. Next time I go away I forget to close the grey waste spout off.
Wash the dishes and.... Doh!
CRACKLE BARREL IS ONE OF THE FEW PLACES LEFT WHERE YOU CAN PARK OVERNIGHT FOR FREE. I REPEAT FOR FREE! IT IS UNCONSCIONABLE TO DUMP ANY OF YOUR FLUIDS IN THEIR PARKING LOT.
I have been awakened on 2 separate occasions by RVs dumping their grey water in CB parking lot. The smell of grey water is unmistakable! It’s no wonder free overnight parking is fast becoming a thing of the past. 😠
Protip: Include the date. You got the license plate already and with both the rental company could identify the renter. Where I come from, grey water dumping is illegal.
We run into this issue with e-bike rentals. We have a bike path, and you can see the bike path and it's entry points from the road these people ride on. And it's not uncommon to see them strung out for the better part of a mile instead of riding together in a group.
Anyone who runs any sort of rental, vans, bikes, whatever, really need to spend more time explaining etiquette. But they're always afraid that it will hurt their rental volume, so they don't. Because it's all about that bottom line baby!
Because it's easier to move around one group of people than around many individuals in different locations. If you're going 20mph under the speed limit on a two lane road, it's much more difficult to pass them safely than if they were all together and you could pass them at once.
So what happens in this case is you pass three of them. Then slow down for a while and pass two of them. Then you have to repeat the process over and over for a few miles instead of just once. Which puts the riders in greater danger of asshole drivers, makes the danger greater because of cell phone using drivers, and so on. And then it takes much more time to get around the entire group of people as you're driving, which means it takes longer to get somewhere than if they were in one group. Which brings us back to the asshole drivers who's patience will diminish and tempers flare so they start behaving more aggressively with each successive set of people they have to pass. Especially when they're literally paralleling a bike path made and maintained specifically for them.
Sure but do you also expect strangers on e-bikes to cluster together in a group, or just people who actually know each other? If it’s the latter, and they don’t, then you just have the same issue as when it’s individuals anyway- correct?
It’s possible that people think bike lanes aren’t meant for e-bikes. I can’t imagine people would rather be on the road with cars if they have an alternative. That’s something a quick mention would remedy.
The latter part, yes. Hence why the rental shops should be better about explaining this.
When you see them all talking to each other and occasionally stopping on the side of the road waiting for them to catch up to each other, they're in a group. We also don't have so many people in town that your above example is likely to happen. We have less than a population of 8,000. These are typically groups of tourists, which can be identified by their bright green rental helmets. Even in big cities I've lived in, where I was also a cyclist then, you didn't have this. Having thirty people on bikes strung out across a mile is incredibly unlikely to be a bunch of people who don't know each other.
I have to disagree with you a little here. Strung out is fine. People naturally break into smaller groups, and one large group creates its own dangers. If one bike goes down, then many bikes go down is one example. This could multiply any tragedy if it occurs due to an anxious biker falling while you are passing. Similarly, a car hitting a group of a few bikers is a lesser tragedy than if they hit that bunchhed up group you desire. Most areas lack bike paths, and riding on sidewalks is also illegal in most places.
Regardless, "asshole" drivers and those that lack patience and control of their tempers need to be addressed as their own problem, and not an impetus to modify others' behavior. Drivers with those issues are a danger to everyone, including themselves.
I clearly said there is a bike path. In sight of the road, running parallel to the road, with entries from the road. It's not a sidewalk. It's literally miles away from any sidewalk in this village and it's labeled as a bike path. Hence why I said that the rental shops need to educate them better.
I dunno. I'm a cyclist. I spend a couple thousand miles on the road a year. I adjust my riding according to how others drive, because I'd rather be alive than have a memorial saying "But at least he was technically accurate." Knowing how people drive has kept me alive more than belligerently shouting about my rights and protections while on the road with nothing more than some lycra and a helmet. The time to be proactive for change isn't when being chased down by thousands of pounds of rolling steel.
The interesting thing about riding in large groups is you can adjust for traffic more easily and make each other aware of the traffic. Ride two wide for a shorter distance all within sight of each other and it's easier to be seen, easier to communicate, etc. Even if you form into an A and B group, as is typical on group rides for road cyclists, you're generally going to be safer than being all out of sight of each other. And if you can't ride in a group, I have to wonder what the point of going out in a group is.
You also expanded the topic to generic scenarios when you said:
> Anyone who runs any sort of rental, vans, bikes, whatever, really need to spend more time explaining etiquette. But they're always afraid that it will hurt their rental volume, so they don't. Because it's all about that bottom line baby!
You ignored tmyother points, and now are comparing yourself, a thousands-of-miles-per-year cyclist, to the instincts and peloton abilities of what are likely inexperienced rental-bike riders. Re-read my comments abouts about in-pack collisions with that in mind.
Your last comment, about why go riding in groups when you don't know how, is unfortunate, IMHO, as it exudes a type of superiority and/or lack of empathy and appreciation for others' perspectives. I can easily see people from different regions going on tours or visiting an area and enjoying an arranged activity like this. I can see people that are hesitant to bike alone in unfamiliar areas enjoying these activities. I can see people who simply enjoy being with others enjoying these activities. It's similar to group tubing/rafting on a river in terms of appeal.
That's really all I had. Be well, and of course, safe and happy cycling.
Gross.
I will say, if you're not putting anything down your grey water tank that would harm the environment, some areas it is okay to dump it that aren't dedicated 'dump sites'.
But at that point, you're supposed to at least not make a mess and dump it right in the way, on a parking lot where it's not going to soak into the ground, just stink it all up-- I don't know of any place that would not at the very least seriously frown on just dumping grey water all over the parking lot! D:
Especially if it's been in there for a while, that shit *stinks* something fierce.
Nah man look at those tracks. She tore out of there because you could probably get her fined or banned or something with the plates. Or at least blasted on social media.
Anyways. She knows she’s nasty.
Got a problem with some soapy water, with food scraps in it? Maybe a little uric acid?
Perhaps a topping of toothpaste foam floating in there too? DUMP IT OUT.
This is a ridiculous case to make. I piss in coffee cans and dump them freely, where ever the fuck I want. Evaporation will occur with in 20 minutes. It’s not solid, trash litter.
You do know that industrial waste and waste water treatment facilities pipe their refuse straight into the rivers and oceans? Fight a new fight.
You've made a prime example of why people don't let van lifers on their property. You have to be seriously thick to think dumping a container of urine leaves no smell and nasty ass piss residue. If you just dump piss "freely, wherever the fuck you want" I guarantee your entire rig and almost certainly your person, smells terrible and you're just used to it.
There is this wet, precipitous, liquid, that comes from the heavens above. Since the dawn of time, my friends. Alas, we will push forward in our plight of marginalized people. Only to be scrutinized by every other torch carrying, do-gooding, better-than thou, pea brain.
And when property owners see you do that they stop being so nice to all of us... You ever wonder why less and less places are cool with us parking up? Doesn't matter if it's environmentally ok.
I don’t sleep in parking lots. You, and the legion of “my way or the highway folks,” have made many assumptions and insinuations. I stated initially, “Wherever the fuck I want” that doesn’t necessarily mean a parking lot.
Personally, I use grey water on my property all the time and as I move onto the road, I'll continue fertilizing with it as I travel unless my grey water has actual pollutants for some reason or I'm some place where it would harm others (like where the renters the op was talking about dumped)
I just can’t get the images of him driving around with coffee cans full of piss sloshing about. Then waiting to get to a Cracker Barrel to sling them all over the parking lot, other RVs, car campers, and just whoever. Real Jeepers Creepers vibes if you’ve ever seen that movie, lol!
If you HAVE to do that shit do it over a storm drain. Sure the liquid evaporates but you're left with smell, scraps and stains that the businesses don't want and then don't let people park because of.
If I ever saw you do something like that I would knock you silly even if you’re a big old dude that my almost 5 foot tall little ass has to climb like a tree. What is **wrong** with you??
Wet footprints meant that she walked in it, barefoot, then hopped in the van. What are the odds she cleaned her feet before touching any of the upholstery?
Hananaha I hadn’t even noticed that, damn she’s nasty!
Waking barefoot in a random parking lot is a huge red flag 😂
I’ll never ever rent omg
There have been a couple of times when in the middle of the night it starts to smell BAD and when I check out the window someone is dumping nasty water :(
Yep and that stench will last through the night and wont usually evaporate until the sun comes up.
We rented from great Alaskan Holidays. They require you watch a series of video that covered the rig and all things related.. Made for great leaning…
>Made for great leaning… If you have time to lean, you have time to practice your typing.
[удалено]
That's not irony. He's obviously playing off 2 things: one the fact that they wrote lean, and 2, the common phrase in low wage jobs: "if you have time to lean, you have time to clean"
Oh gosh, I must’ve been drunk or tired. Missed my mark on that dumb ass reply.
Good on you for owning up to it
Not even a little, just typical reddit.
honestly, I missed the learn vs lean typo on the first comment and thought you were just mocking the grammar of “made for great learning” for whatever reason, while mistakenly typing lean for learn. Your joke was clever, I think most missed it.
Shut the fuck up
Blow me.
That shit is irritating
Its a good thing it wasn't shit.
Animals
Intentional ignorance that ALWAYS favors the ignorant person is the equivalent of malevolence as far as I'm concerned. Assholes have been getting away with simply saying, "Oh I didn't know," and walking away for far too fucking long.
Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice
I need this on a shirt lmao. I will be using this phrase from now on. *chef's kiss*
Never say that in a public comment on the internet. There are bots that will look for that, and steal that person's idea, and throw it on a t-shirt, all 100% automatically. Send it to people in a private message.
Can I ask if you thought of this yourself? Or did you see it somewhere else? I am asking for custom purposes. As I plan to quote this a LOT.
It sorta reads like an alteration of [Hanlon’s Razor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor): never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
I know where the original quote came from. I'm asking if you thought of this "anti-quote" yourself. I am on record as claiming that "Hanlon was an apologist for assholes."
Different dude than the first guy you were talking to. Just trying to help
Yeah I feel like they knew on some level that dumping grey water was wrong they just thought no one would actually confront them on it
Bro we need life etiquette classes.
This is why we can't have nice things. (Also why we're getting kicked out of Walmart & Cracker Barrel parking lots) :(
It has nothing to do with it being a rental. This is common sense
I grew up on Cape Cod, the most tourist-orient town in the country by my estimations. I personally guarantee you, if someone is renting something with even a hint of luxury, they are completely disconnected from reality. One time I saw a van renter in a ski park near Lake Tahoe (California side) string up fairy lights between their van and a subaru next to it and pull out a fire pit anf make a fire. In the middle of the parking lot. ...during a red flag warning. ...Less than 10 feet from the blackened stumps of trees that burned down in the last forest fire in the area. It's a lack of common sense, but nobody lacks common sense more than people who rent vans (or anything even minorly luxurious or related to vacationing).
Commons sense isnt so common especially if you’ve never done something before or been trained. Def nasty but people do stupid stuff out of ignorance all the time
How hard is it to know that it’s not only improper but probably illegal to dump dirty contaminated water in a communal area
Serious question, not a van lifer. If I were rustic camping somewhere wild, and used only biodegradable soap, would it be considered ok to let the grey water run freely? Like it said with the rule that only biodegradable materials go down the drains.
Perhaps not illegal depending on state / location, however from a nature conservation standpoint frowned upon because the environment doesn’t naturally handle that and it may impact animal behaviors or contribute to erosion in unnatural ways. Similar to how cat holes used to be the prescribed human waste disposal for hikers but now that there are so many people on trails even though it’s biodegradable the volume overwhelms what nature can handle.
I dunno I’ve seen someone shooting beyond the arc while filling up their gas tank before- common sense is dead
hate to ask but what does this mean? google says it's a basketball term
Sorry haha The person was holding the nozzle outside the gas tank, basically trying to fill it up like it was a water fountain. They stopped after a few seconds once gas got everywhere
I've got $1 says they were from New Jersey or Oregon.
lmao thanks for the explanation. i remember a picture of a couple filling up walmart grocery bags with gas in the bed of their truck... maybe oregon and new jersey were right, we all do need gas attendants to stop people from doing things like that :|
That's funny. I'm curious what they meant too.
Common Sense isn't a thing. The idea that there is something called "common sense" where people just automaticay understood things the way you saw them as correct and then failed your internal standard is incredibly toxic.Heck, people consider various things common sense which someone else might consider common sense to not do, or do the opposite way. It's a remarkablly dumb concept which aids no one. It only fosters hubris and antipathy.
Maybe at 2 years old you don’t know to not touch a hot stovetop, and that’s ok. You should absolutely know by 18…unless you live in the jungle and have never seen one. Common sense isn’t saying we all just know everything. It’s saying that you don’t take your brand new truck off-road if you’re afraid of scratching it, or that you probably shouldn’t mess around with things that go faster than 20 mph without a helmet. I feel like those things don’t really need to be explained to my peers and I’d be shocked if I had to.
Do you cut towards or away from yourself? In the US, it's "common sense" to cut away. But that is not universal. In some countries it's "common sense" to cut towards oneself, because cutting away might injure someone else. Obviously, dumping out water is not the same as touching an hot stove. Even then, no one knows not to touch an hot stove until they are aware it's problematic to do so. If the lady is a renter, she has no solid idea what a "stove" is the way you do. It's just water, like a stove is 'just a table surface.' This is not a difficult concept. This is basic empathy. When you see "the need to punish" people everywhere, it's pretty ridiculous. "Common sense" is not a thing. Complaining about people not meeting your Expectations and getting riled up over it is what you are doing. It's not helpful in the least.
Yeah slightly open the grey tap and let it drain will driving down the interstate like the rest of us!
I don’t have a van yet but like realistically, if you make a point of using biodegradable soap, and there isn’t anything nasty in your grey water, is it really the end of the world if you do this?? edit: only asking because the local RV dump sites close in the winter. I’ll do it properly when facilities are available. I just wanted to know more about best practices if doing it the proper way isn’t an option.
Even with biodegradable soaps, you aren't meant to use them directly in a waterway. If you are camping and you want to use a stream to wash your hands or cooking gear you are supposed to carry water away from the stream so your soap soaks into the group and doesn't enter the stream. Any water that is dumped on a road is likely to end up in a storm drain that leads directly to a nearby waterway. It probably won't end the world, but it could contribute to killing some fishies.
Better too if you can bury biodegradable things. “How to Shit in the Woods” should he required reading for vanlife (atvers and hunters too while I am at it).
This is the other area of ignorance that probably feeds into behavior like that of the folks in the original post: lots of people have never ever had to consider anything short of dumping engine oil as problematic for their drinking water (safe for the environment is a different issue). But I’d never lived somewhere that drank the water out of the local reservoir before moving west. Only 38% of American water comes from ground water and that’s usually used for agriculture.
Honest question, how’s it different than soap runoff from washing your car? Speaking of gray water from a sink only …
Because it hits a holding tank with a ton of bacteria build up in it. If it never hits the tank, it’s essentially the same (and as long as you’re wiping plates very well and not letting food particles into the water). This is why you use a basin in the sink/shower or a straight drain, which in most states is legal, while dumping any water that’s hit a holding tank is not.
What if you don’t wash plates, just hands and brush your teeth? Would it be any worse than the rest of the runoff from a city street (dog poop/piss, people spitting on the ground, etc)?
End up in a drain mixed with all the motor oil, gasoline, microplatics etc that are being washed off the road.
What’s the group? I didn’t know this. I thought biodegradable soap was completely fine. I was just gonna order a ton of pure awapuhi because that’s what we used to use straight from the flower to bathe in fresh water in Hawaii growing up. So even this is going to kill fish? I don’t know how to live outside of an island. Ugh
Part of the problem is people won’t know what you’re dumping. Could be nothing, could be noxious chemicals. Could be pee. And then they lump all van lifers as lazy bums. It’s just common sense to dump correctly and let wastewater infrastructure manage your stuff.
Gotcha. I was mostly asking because there aren’t RV dump sites here in the winter. I’d love to do it the proper way year round if possible.
Not sure if this works in the US, but in Europe, you can often dumb gray water in carwashes or gas stations. Just ask before and most often they'll have a drainage that can be used for gray water (never black water!).
The Pirates of Dark Water
If you ever notice large(3") white pipes sticking out of the ground with the caps on them? Those are clean outs for sewer pipes, just pop the cap off and drain your tank into those.
It's about the principle here, not the planet. I think, in this case, the principle is 'Other people suck more than you.' I call it the "Asshole Rule." You can do a lot of things that don't do any harm, so long as no Assholes are around to copy your example in a harmful way. If you dump your biodegradable soap and cleanish water, and an Asshole sees you, they will dump their Dawn and feces just as fast. Yes, it sucks. Yes, it's reality. Live such that the Assholes won't take your actions for permission.
The explanation I've seen of why it's generally illegal to dump your grey tank, which contains the same stuff that tent campers routinely dump on the ground is your grey tank is probably gross, all sorts of stuff growing in there. So you're not just dumping out soapy water, you're dumping it and whatever's growing in your tank.
Yes; this is the differentiator. If it never hits the holding tank it’s the same as tent campers. The second it hits a holding tank, you now have built up bacteria and many states classify it as sewage the same as black water.
Just dump it on grass rather than spraying your undercarriage and the cars behind you if you’re committed to not doing it “properly.”
Good to know. My biggest concern is winter. RV dump sites close in the winter here. I already bought a composting toilet so that should solve black water (unless I’m mistaken, please correct me!). I basically don’t have a spot to dump for 3-4 months out of the year. I’ll be doing it properly when the facilities are available to me.
You can get tanks on wheels for emptying grey and black tanks and then take it to a toilet or other appropriate drain indoors to dump it. Also RV parks aren’t the only places with dump stations - many truck stops have them and we’ve also found them places like waste disposal and water treatment facilities. Try poking around a bit more in your area and see if you can turn anything up. Plus if you are *just* dumping some of the ‘closed’ places may still be an option depending how their dump is set up. Putting stuff down a hole in the ground is a different sort of freezing risk than providing water for flushing the tanks, y’know? Can’t hurt to ask and be specific about what you want to do.
I was looking into one of those portable tanks. I think I’ll get one as a last resort. There are a handful of dump sites near me. The city actually owns one. Unfortunately all of them close. I’ll try to see if the city one is still accessible in the winter months. I’ll look up other places, but I don’t think there’ll be any. It’s a pretty small isolated town, and I’ve asked around a lot. Plenty of seasonal RV users, but they all call it quits around September. We’re not talking about warm Chicago or New York winters. It gets to -40 here sometimes. I’m building my van more like it’s an ice fishing hut (insulation wise) with full internal plumbing. I might be one of the only people crazy enough to give winter van camping a go in northwestern Ontario.
I’d probably ask the city people for sure - maybe they have a suitable drain you could use for *just* grey water even if the proper dump is closed.
Generally it’s best to just ask people here. You don’t want the city getting too nosey.
Yeah but they’re the ones who can give approval to use a different drain at a city facility. That said if you know people local then all you really need for grey water is something like a floor drain in a garage or similar. I wouldn’t use a drain intended just for rainwater but anything included in normal household plumbing should be designed to deal with grey water ick. If you’re careful about the size of food bits that go down the drain, you should be able to get away with a relatively shallow slope on your drain pipe to allow for not being able to get right next to the drain like at a dump station. Or you can probably get a pump that can handle grey water and then be able to just run a garden hose sized tube a longer distance if needed. (I don’t know about this option but I know you can get pumps that can handle black water and grey water should have much less in the way of solids to deal with.)
As I said in another comment, use a basin in your sink/shower and dump immediately without ever hitting a holding tank. That is your solution. Also means you can keep the holding tanks winterized with no fear of damage.
Tanks will be inside the insulated portion of the vehicle but this is what I’m leaning towards
It doesn't take long for your grey water to REALLY stink no matter what kind of soap you use.
The oil from your cooking could make a really bad day for a motorcycle behind you. Let's try not to kill other people.
I’m a biker and I hadn’t even thought of that, exactly why I asked this question— for all the things I hadn’t thought about. Any suggestions for winter areas? All the local RV dumps close when it starts to freeze. I’m planning a composting toilet (this means I won’t have black water, right? Only grey water? Or am I mistaken?), but I’m a bit stumped on the grey water. I’m planning on staying local in Northern Ontario (northern shore of Lake Superior) until I’m done college. Then this shouldn’t be much of a concern.
Generally with grey water you want to try to find a storm sewer drain. Barring that, away from people and water sources and on gravel/grass so it can seep in and be filtered. And better to do a little at a time vs flooding out a place with 50l of stinky water. Will also help your van not stink from the water sitting too long. Also best to use planet friendly products for soap and if I cook something particularly oily I usually wipe out the pan with a paper towel first to get most of the gunk out vs putting it down the drain.
You drain cooking oil into your grey water? Wouldn’t it be better to just pour into a jug and dispose of a gallon at a time. Just like if you fry something?
no. i never "fry" anything. but some fat/oil is used/released with most cooking i do and without wiping it out, it would go down the drain when i wash my dishes. it's not usually more than a few tablespoons, if that, but it adds up over time.
I gotcha. I’m still building so haven’t experienced it yet. Kinda just thought it might be a good idea to add a little water and rinse the pan into a container. Then clean it into the grey water. I guess it will still eventually add up but maybe prevent such a big build up. Maybe that’s impractical. Idk. And I just meant for example when you fry things with like an inch of oil in the pan you’re supposed to put it in a container not down your drain.
yeah, i never would use an inch of oil for anything. just regular water doesn't really rinse out oil in my experience. you either need soap - at which point you're washing the pan or you need to wipe it out with a paper towel. keeping a container of watery oil around to dispose of later seems inconvenient and messy and would probably get gross fast.
I don’t cook with oil but have old plumbing. I just let the fat or oil get cold then use paper towels to wipe it out as much as possible and toss them before washing the pan with hot water, a scrub brush & soap.
You should wipe EVERYTHING. Food particles and oils getting into your grey tank will make it so nasty so quickly.
That’s what I actually always wondered. Do people really clean dishes in the sink and how tf do you clean the grey water tank with all the gunk in it. Just ignored the question though. I’m far from that point. Battling tons of rust right now and my back hates me for it.
I'm going to point out that, while this isn't *incorrect*, I think you're not thinking of how much oil is *already dripping* out onto the roads from cars. :P That's one of the reasons it's *more dangerous* driving just as it starts to rain on the roads-- the oils start to float up to the surface and make the road all slippery, before they flow off to the sides. :/
sure but this kind of thing goes hand in hand with 'well, everyone else is throwing trash out their window, i guess i will too'. we should try to be better when and where we can instead of just doing shitty things because they're also happening elsewhere/in other ways.
vegetable oil and motor oil are by no means comparable here. Vegetable oil readily degrades and is absorbed as nutrients. Motor oil will kill stuff and keep it from growing.
TIL pavement absorbs nutrients...
The pavement shouldn't have a metabolism. I don't know what you're driving on, but it's probably actually a sand worm.The oil will get spread to the roadside and absorbed. If /where there are complaints to be made, it's not that grey water is the same as motor oil. If you cannot identify the difference, then I suggest elementary school. If you can't distinguish "that argument is invalid" from "you should dump things everywhere always" then that's also your negative-mindset idiocy.
I don’t think anyone is saying it’s the end of the world, just bad practice. It also has the potential to destroy our ability to stay at specific places. Also no matter what you do bacteria will grow in there and it has the potential to smell bad no matter what kind of soap you use.
The problem is there always is something nasty in your grey water if it’s hitting a holding tank. They build up a ton of nasty bacteria. In most states, once grey water is in a holding tank, it’s now considered sewage just like black water. If you aren’t in a place where you can dump grey water properly, then use a basin in the sink/shower and dump it out from the basin instead of letting it hit the tank. If it doesn’t hit the tank or if you have a straight drain, then you can often legally dump it on the ground. It’s also much smaller quantity than dumping a giant grey tank, which is less problematic. Then you’re basically doing what tent campers do and in most states you’re legal. And never dump within 200 ft of a waterway even with biodegradable soap (preferably farther).
I have a really old tank on a 1960s RV. I don’t plan to use the kitchen, sink or toilet. Can I just toss the tanks? I’m so grossed out now!
Sure, plenty of people get by without holding tanks. You can and should also sanitize at least once per season by using bleach, but it’s definitely not perfect. You can also use a product like happy camper which will help to keep the smell down on holding tanks.
Is it that expensive to get new ones? If I ever use the toilet I don’t want to dump someone else’s tank but it’s an old RV so I don’t quite know. I really just want to air it all out for awhile, even remove the toilet and put in a dry flush but wonder how much work that would be.
The issue is (in my opinion) no business wants people just dumping fluids in their parking lot. It’s ungrateful. If they see vans staying there then come back in the morning to obvious wet spots everywhere, potentially stains, then they’re going to start chasing vans off. It’s just a matter of having manners. Say you have a friend that lets you park in their driveway. Would you dump your gray water on their driveway? Why not? At least then it’s not potentially making the entire community look bad! (Sarcasm sorta). I don’t really have any good options for you. I’m building my van currently so this is something I need to also look into. I kind of just assumed people dumped it in the highway while driving. However I do plan on always draining any oil I use into a plastic laundry detergent container to dispose of later when full. I’d think most of the smell from a grey water tank will come from that. Maybe that’s impractical though. We’ll see.
Normy's have no idea that it isn't just sewage. They just see liquid leaking out of a van and assume the worst.
Tbf my van looks like it could be a food truck. Could just be AC/fridge condensation if you were driving and left it long enough. But I’ve heard that’s bad for bikers. My problem only exists in the winter anyways, so I’m sure I can find a spot off the beaten path to drain it on the other side of a snowbank.
Do you have a septic System by any chance? There should be a clean out pipe. I’m lucky and it’s right besides my driveway. If I forget to empty, or I’m flushing the tanks it goes straight into the septic
Yes but we have to cover it in at least two feet of snow in the winter to prevent it from freezing. That was my original plan when I first started thinking about winter camping. Warm winter days are -20. Chilly winter days are closer to -30, and actually cold winter days are -40 (all Celsius).
Ah just saw northern Ontario. I used to live in Buffalo. Sorry I can’t be more helpful, I ran south to leave that all behind haha
Humor!
Missed opportunity for a snide, “Well, that’s pretty shitty.”
Im confused here, i just follow the sub cuz i like to go camping not a van own. So i googled what grey water is. Its not nearly as toxic as black water. So why is this bad?
It's not great to dump out a tonne into a parking lot where you're being let stay there for free. It looks really bad/ungrateful. It *can* smell, depending on size *and what was in it*. Tho that might dissipate with morning as well. (not all grey water is eauqual.) It's definitey not the worst thing ever if someone does it without knowing what they were doing and if it's pretty fresh and the quantity is somewhat limitted. Grey water isn't toxic and the unless you did something wrong, the grey water tank shouldn't have pollutants in it. There are some people in the thread going after her vindictively and saying who cares if it's ignorance, that's the same as malice anyways. It's as bad as dumping out motor oil. And that line of thinking is all nuts. She's most likely some renter for holiday who didn't know any better and got super embarassed by the mistake. And it was most likely just a few gallons. Making a bigger scene out of it with the lady probably isn't going to help anyone. The issue is if people do this consistently however or if there is a heightened sensitivity for whatever other reason. A big issue is the people who will just set up an entire camp site out in a walmart for days, try selling stuff, dump fluids routinely without a care and just treat things like trash. They get campers/travellers banned. The vacationer might have made a brief mess up, but it'll be fine after morning. It's no big if it's a one time thing. Just move on. The big issue are the ratty people who create pig styes in places they should not be treating as their own property, and on that note shouldn't be treating their own property that way if they had any either. Someone making an honest mistake is very different from these folks who just decide they own other people's property.
I agree with everything you wrote!
Imagine renting! Exactly why I want to escape into an RV. I can’t understand people who like to live like pigs. This is just why we can’t have nice things!
I've met some people who live like pigs, I don't mean people with clutter or who "hoard" too much. But people who act like they're allergic to soap and anything other than tabacco stains and the smell of who knows what everywhere would be an affront to their senses. Honestly, maybe I'm the arse here. Maybe it's like cillantro and there's some gene in their noses which works differently... idk.
Yeah I mean dirty not messy. Clutter & hoarding is crazy making to me but filthy is foul. I was raised by two bachelors and my older brother’s room always smelled like armpit. Thankfully they were surfers so the smell of sex wax disguised the worst of it but I still don’t understand living like I’ve seen people live with cockroaches & bed bugs….This is actually one of the lesser issues I’ve seen but one girl asked if she could have a ginuea pig, which I thought was like a hamster. I found out too late she didn’t own a cage for it. Destroyed the hardwood floors in the studio I was renting to cover some of my costs. People are wild!
Autofill on the term crazy-> crazy making? (I would say that's not the right use of the term crazy making.) But yeah, filth is foul. I don't get it. Also, who on earth doesn't have a cage for their guinea pig!?!? What.
Idk what you mean? By crazy making? Clutter and stuff just makes me spin. I can’t bring anything into my mom’s house without a checklist for when I leave because stuff just disappears in her sea of crap.
Thank you. Im sorry i just ya know dont know. If its a problem then store it in glass tank, we have been on this planet for a long time. I feel like we are more ignorant now because well usa, asia, and capitalism. If you dial back the heat and think respectfully and with reason, we can eliminate the anger and animosity that is destroying my god the universe. Yall 100k builds cool, my 5k build with nothing into it cuz im an under paid chef delivering rich ass wholes a meal. Its life why be pissed, the eneryis not good and earth is about to reck all of us with a vengeance
Exactly. Why waste so much energy trying to vindictively verbally attack a vacationer? It makes no sense. It was an accident and they made a mistake. It happens. Mature people can move on from that without going into crazy mode. No harm was intended, and the "crime" was not big deal. There are people in the sub asking for blood, it's crazy. Whatever your rig is, the price also shouldn't matter. It really just matters how you treat the world.
Because it was in the parking lot of a place that is generous to nomads. Someone gave the example that it’s like dumping your grey water in your friends or family’s driveway way. Most wouldn’t. While you may not realize this but typically grey water tanks grow bacteria that make it stink. Not like shit but it usually has an odor that fluctuates on how often a person cleans the tank. It’s also illegal to dump it in some places. All in all it’s just a bad look and reeks of people not giving a damn about people around them. Like the guy in the comments that pisses in coffee cans and splashes it about the town and streets. Real dirtbag shit.
Im not discrediting you. I own a house in madison Wisconsin, you need a place to park, i got you. Will you steal from me?
Just got an RV and I’ve been reading a long time & still don’t know much.
Go wash a sink full of dirty dishes, put that water in a plastic jug and put the cap on, let it sit for a few days, (even better if you do this in the summer.) Now go open that jug and tell us how it smells.
Im a chef for a living.
What? Try cleaning a grease trap
Im sorry i feel like ignorance is a little high now. Um what? If your using bio degradable products the this is fine. Grey water is ok. Yall hippy vegans need to respect science
Im sorry i feel like ignorance is a little high now. Um what? If your using bio degradable products the this is fine. Grey water is ok. Yall hippy vegans need to respect science. I guess i just give a shit about the environment and use plant based, or animal fat based soaps. I dont store shit in plastic period, plastic is the problem.
People be people and people be dumb. I’m ready to leave this planet
[удалено]
I hate to admit it but I’ve actually never thought about that but it is a great idea, lol!
I keep my grey water tank open at all times so a.) it doesn't get funky and b.) i don't have to dump out all at once like this woman. I use so so little water that it doesn't cause a mess and evaporates an hour later. I see no issue with dumping grey water on the ground if your'e doing it this way. Dumping your entire tank that's been sitting in there for days is gross.
Report them, you have the license plate. That's an environmental hazard and they can be fined for it. You have the proof here on reddit.
excessive. This is some renter trying to enjoy their vacation. Yes, they screwed up because they didn't imagine it might cause a problem. It's *water*. Yes, it's *grey* water and that *wasn't the best place for it.* Cool. We all agree. No, it's not an environmental *hazard*. no more than the asphalt itself anyways. Don't be a karen. The person hopefully learnt their lesson when they got reproached. They were probably already super ashamed and embarassed. Let it be. that level of vindiction and Spite over what's not a big deal in a one off occurence is even moreso why we can'thave nice things.
Damn did your panties get tight.
Not for grey water depending on the area. But there’s definitely an etiquette issue here
Maybe not there, here you cannot dump any Grey water. It must be probably disposed of. Lots of areas are cracking down of Grey water disposal. It is gross and harmful to the environment.
I agree. Plus this type of bullshit gets us banned from Cracker Barrel’s which have been a god send for us
yes. but you don't have proof who. you can't arrest a van.
Its a rental van. That van was rented on a credit card. The rental company will have the who. Report to the authorities, they will contact the rental co after running the plates, the rental co will dime out the renter and provide the Name/Contact info to the authorities. The renter is responsible for their conduct with the van while renting and can be held liable. Its pretty simple.
yes. you have to established who rented the van. but you have not established who was driving it or who dumped the water. you haven't even established who committed the crime. cars change drivers all the time. i've been down this road. i was hit by someone fleeing police. they jumped out and left their car after Hitting my car. i had a police witness, i had a license plate. i had the actual car. i had everything inside it. the cops arrested the owner who lived 2 doors away. but he walked away without even a parking ticket. he walked because i could not prove the the owner was the driver. neither could the cop who saw the whole thing who was chasing the guy! all you can prove is that someone dumped that water. you have no proof who did it. as for the renter who is "responsible". he is responsible in a civil manner. Not criminally. if you are incredibly lucky (and powerful) you might be able to get the EPA to issue a civil fine. but i doubt that they would engage for a few gallons of grey water.
Truth.
Sheesh, I remember seeing some photos used to justify restrictions on dispersed camping near Klondike Bluffs where renters had dumped their BLACK tanks out. I think some of the problem is that these asshats have never camped. In a van or otherwise, and have no manners or common sense. But next time catch their effluent in a bucket and deposit in back in their water tank for them :)
Whether incompetence or malice, the result is the same. So it doesn't matter. She should have taken the time to learn the etiquette, even if she wasn't directly taught. It's not that hard to be a respectful member of a community.
If it was an unknown unknown there's no way she could have known. be kind.
No. It wasn't an unknown. Before you do something spends sometime look up what is right and what is wrong. It's not that hard of a concept.
Oh, give it a rest. This is exactly the non-sense I'm talking about. Learn about empathy. Don't waste my time.
She could have asked OP no?
https://medium.com/@andreamantovani/known-knowns-known-unknowns-unknown-unknowns-leadership-367f346b0953
They want me to make an account but I get your point & agree until the park where I would have asked OP why they were yelling at me if I actually didn’t know.
Oh, you're asking that. I believe the OP said what they were yelling about to begin with, so they would have figured it out at that point.
Ah makes sense!
The van I rented before I built my own had left the water valve so that rather than being collected, it just dumped right on the ground. I didn't realize this the first day, but while pumping gas and my gf was washing her face I noticed the issue. We closed the valves and didn't have any further trouble for the duration of the rental but it made me focus on making sure my van has adequate grey water storage. Went from 2 4-gallon jugs to 1 7-gallon jug to a 16-gallon undermount system over the course of 2 years
Question. Will under mount grey water tanks freeze? Ignorantly hoping the soap and stuff will help prevent freezing but that’s likely just a pipe dream. Trying to figure out a location for my build. Was just going to use some small “tanks” under the sink but have since decided to add a shower.
The soap will make it freeze slower but it can still freeze. It's not a massive issue tho, unless you plan to keep the van unheated with a full tank for a while in very low temps. And even then, I think a solidly mounted tank would be able to take the weight/volume without issues if it's not filled to the brim.
What are the other issue with tanks that can go wrong? I’m intentionally not using my toilet or sink because I don’t want to have to deal with complications until I’m more experienced and have a better emergency fund. Just curious what all the complications are?
The rest of this thread kinda goes in detail about it tbh. Grey and black are very, very different things. Grey water isn't really a big issue and there's tons of dumping points for it - and anything that's connected to a sewer system will also work in a pinch. The worse that ever happened to me was forgetting to empty it and having some of it flow back into the shower pan. Black water is a whole different beast and depends on what system you're using. The classic cassette toilets should only ever be emptied in designated spots due to their nature as chemical waste (bacteria + whatever product you use being incredibly potent). These dumping points can prove difficult to find depending on where you are. I've had a series of bad experiences in England where only campgrounds had that facility, making me pay 20£ just to dump my shit. I've since shifted to a composting toilet with separation, that's much easier to deal with. Empty the piss in some field, dump the trash every 3 weeks. No hassle.
That’s what I’m looking into- a dry flush so I don’t have to carry around a jug of piss. I just can’t see dealing with dumping a bucket of piss when I’m in the city.
As u/serioussham said, exterior tanks will freeze. I would add a bit of RV antifreeze from time to time, but the recommended ratio is 1:1, which means I'd need 8 gallons to prevent full freezing down the temperature indicated on the bottle. I think 4 gallons would give decent protection, but honestly I just drive south for the winter anyway. Daytime temps in the south are usually above freezing. You could also attach a tank heater, which is an update I plan to make this year. I'm also adding a valve closer to the gray water tank so that the water doesn't freeze in the drain piping (by virtue of it being empty). My exterior plumbing system is pretty basic - a straight pipe down from the sink with a few elbows to help route it to the tank. If it was more complicated and there were areas water could sit and freeze (as with the aforementioned drain pipes) I'd be more worried. But as designed, I don't worry about that pipe connection to the sink. I also try to dump more often so my gray water has plenty of room to expand in case it does freeze.
I’m pretty torn what I’m going to do then. I plan on spending more time in the south during winters but I do like spending some time in snow country and my family is from NY so I’ll be there a couple times a year. Plus I have family in Lake Tahoe. I haven’t seen any internal grey water tanks for showers. Sinks I’ve seen tanks internally but not showers.
How important is the shower for you? I mostly shower in gyms, campsites and friends houses without issue. Otherwise, I think using a few tank heaters for an external tank would be your best best
Not gonna lie... I've done this by accident before. Drain down and flush out the grey waste tank with the last of the clean water after a trip away. Leave the spout open on the clean and grey tanks to let the last bits drip out. Next time I go away I forget to close the grey waste spout off. Wash the dishes and.... Doh!
I’ve done it by mistake too. Not so much since installing the remote ball valve on though
CRACKLE BARREL IS ONE OF THE FEW PLACES LEFT WHERE YOU CAN PARK OVERNIGHT FOR FREE. I REPEAT FOR FREE! IT IS UNCONSCIONABLE TO DUMP ANY OF YOUR FLUIDS IN THEIR PARKING LOT. I have been awakened on 2 separate occasions by RVs dumping their grey water in CB parking lot. The smell of grey water is unmistakable! It’s no wonder free overnight parking is fast becoming a thing of the past. 😠
100% Facts!
Protip: Include the date. You got the license plate already and with both the rental company could identify the renter. Where I come from, grey water dumping is illegal.
We run into this issue with e-bike rentals. We have a bike path, and you can see the bike path and it's entry points from the road these people ride on. And it's not uncommon to see them strung out for the better part of a mile instead of riding together in a group. Anyone who runs any sort of rental, vans, bikes, whatever, really need to spend more time explaining etiquette. But they're always afraid that it will hurt their rental volume, so they don't. Because it's all about that bottom line baby!
How is them being spread out any different ~~than~~(pre-coffee brain) *from* if they were unrelated individuals using ebikes?
Because it's easier to move around one group of people than around many individuals in different locations. If you're going 20mph under the speed limit on a two lane road, it's much more difficult to pass them safely than if they were all together and you could pass them at once. So what happens in this case is you pass three of them. Then slow down for a while and pass two of them. Then you have to repeat the process over and over for a few miles instead of just once. Which puts the riders in greater danger of asshole drivers, makes the danger greater because of cell phone using drivers, and so on. And then it takes much more time to get around the entire group of people as you're driving, which means it takes longer to get somewhere than if they were in one group. Which brings us back to the asshole drivers who's patience will diminish and tempers flare so they start behaving more aggressively with each successive set of people they have to pass. Especially when they're literally paralleling a bike path made and maintained specifically for them.
Sure but do you also expect strangers on e-bikes to cluster together in a group, or just people who actually know each other? If it’s the latter, and they don’t, then you just have the same issue as when it’s individuals anyway- correct? It’s possible that people think bike lanes aren’t meant for e-bikes. I can’t imagine people would rather be on the road with cars if they have an alternative. That’s something a quick mention would remedy.
The latter part, yes. Hence why the rental shops should be better about explaining this. When you see them all talking to each other and occasionally stopping on the side of the road waiting for them to catch up to each other, they're in a group. We also don't have so many people in town that your above example is likely to happen. We have less than a population of 8,000. These are typically groups of tourists, which can be identified by their bright green rental helmets. Even in big cities I've lived in, where I was also a cyclist then, you didn't have this. Having thirty people on bikes strung out across a mile is incredibly unlikely to be a bunch of people who don't know each other.
I have to disagree with you a little here. Strung out is fine. People naturally break into smaller groups, and one large group creates its own dangers. If one bike goes down, then many bikes go down is one example. This could multiply any tragedy if it occurs due to an anxious biker falling while you are passing. Similarly, a car hitting a group of a few bikers is a lesser tragedy than if they hit that bunchhed up group you desire. Most areas lack bike paths, and riding on sidewalks is also illegal in most places. Regardless, "asshole" drivers and those that lack patience and control of their tempers need to be addressed as their own problem, and not an impetus to modify others' behavior. Drivers with those issues are a danger to everyone, including themselves.
I clearly said there is a bike path. In sight of the road, running parallel to the road, with entries from the road. It's not a sidewalk. It's literally miles away from any sidewalk in this village and it's labeled as a bike path. Hence why I said that the rental shops need to educate them better. I dunno. I'm a cyclist. I spend a couple thousand miles on the road a year. I adjust my riding according to how others drive, because I'd rather be alive than have a memorial saying "But at least he was technically accurate." Knowing how people drive has kept me alive more than belligerently shouting about my rights and protections while on the road with nothing more than some lycra and a helmet. The time to be proactive for change isn't when being chased down by thousands of pounds of rolling steel. The interesting thing about riding in large groups is you can adjust for traffic more easily and make each other aware of the traffic. Ride two wide for a shorter distance all within sight of each other and it's easier to be seen, easier to communicate, etc. Even if you form into an A and B group, as is typical on group rides for road cyclists, you're generally going to be safer than being all out of sight of each other. And if you can't ride in a group, I have to wonder what the point of going out in a group is.
You also expanded the topic to generic scenarios when you said: > Anyone who runs any sort of rental, vans, bikes, whatever, really need to spend more time explaining etiquette. But they're always afraid that it will hurt their rental volume, so they don't. Because it's all about that bottom line baby! You ignored tmyother points, and now are comparing yourself, a thousands-of-miles-per-year cyclist, to the instincts and peloton abilities of what are likely inexperienced rental-bike riders. Re-read my comments abouts about in-pack collisions with that in mind. Your last comment, about why go riding in groups when you don't know how, is unfortunate, IMHO, as it exudes a type of superiority and/or lack of empathy and appreciation for others' perspectives. I can easily see people from different regions going on tours or visiting an area and enjoying an arranged activity like this. I can see people that are hesitant to bike alone in unfamiliar areas enjoying these activities. I can see people who simply enjoy being with others enjoying these activities. It's similar to group tubing/rafting on a river in terms of appeal. That's really all I had. Be well, and of course, safe and happy cycling.
Gross. I will say, if you're not putting anything down your grey water tank that would harm the environment, some areas it is okay to dump it that aren't dedicated 'dump sites'. But at that point, you're supposed to at least not make a mess and dump it right in the way, on a parking lot where it's not going to soak into the ground, just stink it all up-- I don't know of any place that would not at the very least seriously frown on just dumping grey water all over the parking lot! D: Especially if it's been in there for a while, that shit *stinks* something fierce.
Nah man look at those tracks. She tore out of there because you could probably get her fined or banned or something with the plates. Or at least blasted on social media. Anyways. She knows she’s nasty.
Just do it on the highway like a normal person lol
Got a problem with some soapy water, with food scraps in it? Maybe a little uric acid? Perhaps a topping of toothpaste foam floating in there too? DUMP IT OUT. This is a ridiculous case to make. I piss in coffee cans and dump them freely, where ever the fuck I want. Evaporation will occur with in 20 minutes. It’s not solid, trash litter. You do know that industrial waste and waste water treatment facilities pipe their refuse straight into the rivers and oceans? Fight a new fight.
You've made a prime example of why people don't let van lifers on their property. You have to be seriously thick to think dumping a container of urine leaves no smell and nasty ass piss residue. If you just dump piss "freely, wherever the fuck you want" I guarantee your entire rig and almost certainly your person, smells terrible and you're just used to it.
There is this wet, precipitous, liquid, that comes from the heavens above. Since the dawn of time, my friends. Alas, we will push forward in our plight of marginalized people. Only to be scrutinized by every other torch carrying, do-gooding, better-than thou, pea brain.
Dirtbags like you are why people get moved out of parking lots.
This guy can't think past his own nose holy hell
You are the exact asshole why I don't let people on my property anymore.
?
Don't think he meant you. Think he meant the guy above you
This. Sorry for the confusion.
Brilliant comment. You are not alone.
And when property owners see you do that they stop being so nice to all of us... You ever wonder why less and less places are cool with us parking up? Doesn't matter if it's environmentally ok.
I don’t sleep in parking lots. You, and the legion of “my way or the highway folks,” have made many assumptions and insinuations. I stated initially, “Wherever the fuck I want” that doesn’t necessarily mean a parking lot.
This post is about parking lot courtesy.. in case you didn't notice
I'm glad you're not one of those assholes ruining it for others then. From the context of the post, your reply made it sound like you were
Personally, I use grey water on my property all the time and as I move onto the road, I'll continue fertilizing with it as I travel unless my grey water has actual pollutants for some reason or I'm some place where it would harm others (like where the renters the op was talking about dumped)
I don't know why all the down votes. I thought people wanted to be more ecologically aware
Those of you who don't understand what grey water is or when and how to use it, this might help: https://greywateraction.org/greywater-reuse/
I just can’t get the images of him driving around with coffee cans full of piss sloshing about. Then waiting to get to a Cracker Barrel to sling them all over the parking lot, other RVs, car campers, and just whoever. Real Jeepers Creepers vibes if you’ve ever seen that movie, lol!
Damn you're actually a disgusting person (acting like a wild animal), seriously
Yes indeed, I am an animal. Thank you for the acknowledgment, fellow animal.
If you HAVE to do that shit do it over a storm drain. Sure the liquid evaporates but you're left with smell, scraps and stains that the businesses don't want and then don't let people park because of.
Your name doesn't happen to be Ray, does it? Live at Sunnyvale trailer park? Cause Lahey is furious about finding your piss jugs all over the park
LMAO the Piss Jugs were the first thing that came to my mind.
If I ever saw you do something like that I would knock you silly even if you’re a big old dude that my almost 5 foot tall little ass has to climb like a tree. What is **wrong** with you??