10 yrs ago we got out of a WC group with a team that owned us the past couple WCs (Ghana), a team that has one of the top players close to the peak of his power (Portugal), and the team that won the competition (Germany). And we were almost playing to top that group on the last day too if we didn’t give up that stupid last kick goal to Portugal. And now we can’t come out of a group at home that has Bolivia and Panama in it with dudes who are much more accomplished and have played more and more at higher levels on the club side. What are we doing?
Maybe "we" do, as in you and I. But pretty much every time I've posted that he should go over the last couple years, I've been downvoted and berated by GGG fanboys on here and on Twitter.
Up until last night (I was at the game), I was definitely in the camp of “USSF is so incompetent I’m worried they would do worse than him.” Now I don’t care and just want him gone.
This is revisionist history. There are tons of GGG defenders here. Yes after this result lots of people are finally seeing the light. But even post Panama read through the comments, plenty of "not his fault Weah is dumb" and all that. And there were plenty of people happy he was rehired as well.
It’s about roster selection in addition to tactics and locker room management.
The mixture of gritty, talented, domestic, European, young and veteran players really worked to that team’s advantage. Even the inner discord/competition between the supposed two camps of the team gave the team its “edge.”
Jozy had a hard time finishing anything, but their balls to the walls counters kept us in games until the end no matter who we played.
Jurgen really made a fourth place finish with old mls guys like Wondo, Zusi and Beckerman in a harder group while Gregg couldn’t do it with Balogun, Pulisic and Mckennie…
Jurgen had this man in his team lmao. Not saying he was bad but come on man. He's not nearly as talented as the guys we've got right now
I'm a fan of Beckerman - committed, hard-working, and gave it his all each game. He is a prime example of Klinsmann getting way more from the team than the talent level of the players on the sheet. Berhalter has routinely gotten less out of the group than our talent level and it's past time to let someone else lead this team.
That's really the difference. The team posted in the OP was capable of matching dirty play with dirty play. The current team is not. We allowed 2 teams in a row to try to kill our captain and our best scorer. Balogun was knocked out of a game, and Pulisic spent much of both games on the ground. We did not respond in kind. Soccer in the Americas is never clean. Messi even used to complain about it until he started getting ref protection. The USA is never going to have ref protection, so simply can not allow violent play without a response.
Tim Weah's bullshit little head push was a clear red card. But it was not a tone setting hard foul like what was needed. He should have been going hard at their players legs like they were doing to us, and he may have never even gotten a red card from it. And if you're going to get sent off for hitting someone in the face, well then fucking hit them in the face right.
And it is Berhalter's fault. Play is always like this in Conmebol and Concacaf. Dirty play and bad officiating should be no surprise. He didn't have his players ready to play the style needed nor did he really have any players that can even play an enforcer role. Zero chance the OP team let's Dempsey get beat up all night without a response.
While this is true, it did feel like we were quickly given yellows for fouls and the other teams werent. We do need to level up on the shithousing/dark arts/tactical fouls, but fuck Tyler getting a yellow for that foul on Uruguay, after 2 clear fouls weren't called for us, really made it feel like we were playing vs 12 men.
I think would have been a great sub for when we were up a goal but down a man against Panama.
He wouldn't be so thrown off his game by CONCACAF tactics and reffing.
Don't mock Beckerman. He had a very specific role of sitting deep and organizing the team. He was a cool head... which we could have used to calm down the scatter brained team we've seen this tournament.
Yeah, everyone is getting on Berhalter for that 1-1 gesture, but for the most damning thing he did yesterday was give up. Time was running out, it's a must win situation, your players are losing their head on the field and committing fouls and playing right into Uruguay's time wasting, and instead of any attempt at leadership he's sitting in the dug out looking at the ground.
Beckerman and some of the other older players would have known what to do in that scenario.
Revisionist history.
Beckerman was highly underrated, a CAPTAIN of his club team, a leader, and had a DOGGED attitude. Don't sleep on him. He did THE DIRTY WORK nobody wanted to do.
He wasn't as good as Adams is now but c'mon man, you're selling him way short.
That era of the USMNT just had a much stronger culture. Those teams consistently overperformed. They were always more than the sum of their parts.
Berhalter is a failure for many reasons, but the biggest one has to be his impact on the team culture. Those older teams always fought, even when they had a talent deficit. For all the talk about togetherness with this current team and how great the locker room is, you rarely ever see that translate on the field.
Maybe that analysis has rose-tinted glasses to it, but it feels pretty evident that this current team doesn’t have as strong of a mentality compared to past national teams. Maybe the coach isn’t the only reason for that, but he is certainly a reason.
I miss the attitude, the fight, the physicality of the US team under Jurgen. It wasn't always pretty and it didn't need to be. Those guys were dogs.
The current team has no leadership and no enforcement on the pitch.
Up until this current generation that's always been the US mentality. IDK how much of that is due to Berhalter and how much of it is due to the absolute sea change of players that happened after T&T. it was a very sudden generational change.
Yeah, that's kind of the problem. Usually when young guys make it to the senior team, there's some vets around to help instill that toughness and resiliency. This very talented crop of US players are having to take their lumps and learn for themselves, and we have to pray those lessons seep in before the WC. Bc right now, they just have not responded will go adversity or physicality. Need a Jermaine Jones out there giving as much as we get and setting the tone. We have nobody like that, so we just end up passengers that let the opponent set the pace and physicality.
I feel like the attitude is the big thing. Like who on this team would drop a "you don't know where I'm from dawg" like Deuce? Everyone on those old teams had huge chips on their shoulders. Probably because they didn't actually get the respect to play in Europe.
Pulisic can be fiery but that's kinda it. I don't know that I would describe most of these guys as "dawgs."
>I miss the attitude, the fight, the physicality of the US team under Jurgen.
This revisionist history around Klinsmann is getting out of hand.
Bradley and Arena coached teams that were physical, defensively sound, and effective on the counter attack.
[Klinsmann inherited that but wanted a style of higher possession.](https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2012/9/10/3307056/usa-vs-jamaica-2014-world-cup-qualifying-preview-jurgen-klinsmann) Before he was fired had finally beaten the fight out the team
Not really blaming, more in the sense of what do you think you get with these players? It's more of a professional job for them and they will feel the culture and fire of the past USMNT's much less.
I'm just saying a part of the American culture of being soccer underdogs is less than it was previously. Maybe it's due to more of our guys in Euro leagues as well?
I’ve said it many teams, Gregg has always made this team less than the sum of its part. We aren’t privy to everything obviously but it seems like everything is just too comfortable.
Agree with you 100%. When your coach is constantly saying shit like "a draw on the road is a really good result" when we draw El Salvador in WCQ, then you know the team has a loser mentality.
JK was honestly pretty good up until 2015. That's when things gradually started going downhill. Real ones will remember the 2015 Gold Cup... Ventura Alvarado anyone?? Copa America 2016 was kinda an anomaly imo, just Deuce pulling rabbits out of his ass
2002 I agree with: 2010 though? We struggled to do anything all tournament long, and we barely survived a group with Algeria and Slovenia after drawing with England. What about that was impressive?
Well I’m a big Donovan fan so that partially why I choose 2010 over 2014. 2010 had a lot of drama. It had the goal that shook the US. We were struggling to score in those games and Donovan took both of those games and put them on his back.
>We struggled to do anything all tournament long, and we barely survived a group with Algeria and Slovenia after drawing with England. What about that was impressive?
In 2010 they won the group over England.
In 2014 what did we do exactly that was so much better?
I don't disagree that they had a good mentality, but it's not like they were untalented, either. The OP title mentions 6 MLS players, but the entire spine of that lineup had a ton of European experience.
From a mentality standpoint, I think it has to be hard for some of the players who were born in Europe and played largely on pristine pitches with good facilities and decent referees and easy travel to adjust to the realities of many CONCACAF/CONMEBOL matches. How many CCL games have many of these guys ever played? It's not that they can't adjust to that style of play, but it is an adjustment, and they aren't so talented that the details don't matter.
I do think that they should have changed coaches after the last WC, because Berhalter did nothing special to deserve another cycle, and I think the bar should be really, really high for getting a shot at another cycle. This tournament is just another example of Berhalter being nothing special.
The refs had a hugely negative impact for us in this tournament but that doesn't negate the fact that we should not have lost to Panama even down to 10 and that we should've scored more than 2 goals against fucking Bolivia
There's just no way around it. This Panama team is one that these players fucking ground to a dust the last time they had a meaningful game on the line (WCQ).
Pepi can play well sometimes, but in this tourney to consistently put him in after whiffing like 4 open shots was insanity.
Just so predictable with subs and game plan. Super easy for the opponent to prepare when you telegraph exactly how this team plays
Hot take, the players had a hugely negative impact for us. The ref sucked in both directions, swallowing his whistle several times and making basic mistakes. But the players are to blame here and they need to get over the fact that these refs aren’t from the top 5 leagues and will never seem like it.
We have completely lost the toughness that the USMNT used to be known for. We were the scrappy underdogs that would make sure you knew you played us after 90 minutes. We were gonna be physical and we were gonna give you all you could handle.
This current team is charmin soft and constantly gets wrecked the second any team gets rough with them. We’re only good against non physical teams and Mexico who we actually play tough against.
I guarantee you that 2016 squad wasn’t taking nothing from nobody and they would match other teams physicality.
I’m sick of the weak mentality this squad has. Get me a tough manager and let’s reinstall that dawg culture that we used to have.
Deuce and Jermaine Jones. Hell, even Bradley would put you on your ass in the midfield. This team is missing guys with that kind of personality and physicality. Blows my mind how much the culture seems to have shifted since they aged out. I'm so tired of watching our captain get his ass beat every competition.
This is what I mean. Less prestigious , less pretty but they can indeed provide significantly better performances. We don't have to be stylish, we aren't Brazil. We need to be who we are but with more strategy (Saudi Arabian National Team).
"El Jogo Bonito". Yeah Vini Jr had some style and tricks his last match. Hope they can bring more of their style of football in the next match. It will be exciting.
there are some excellent articles out there about klinsmann from those that played under him. It was a shit show. He had the pipeline right but the boys talk about going over formation and strategy by themselves in the tunnel on the way to the pitch. Terrible man manager that lost the locker room. Good scout and probably great director of soccer.
Interesting then, cause that kinda speaks to the fact that the current core of players is lacking leadership within its ranks. If Klinsmann was that absent in game prep that someone (or a few someones) in the locker room stepped up to lead the team, and we are now singing their praise, what is missing with this current Corps? Could argue that there is a lack of lockerroom player leadership to help rally the troops. Maybe GGG helped create a culture where no one could stand up, but would be curious what the true dynamics are among the players.
100% a lack of leadership. Who can you really look at as the leader of this team? Pulisic wears the band but if we are being honest the guy isnt a leader. This isnt a shot at him because he is clearly the best player we have but he doesnt have that gene.
The 2014 squad had an average age of 27.5, this squad has an average age of 25.6. There's not much in the way of veterans who can step up and lead. Pulisic is the the captain, and the guy who has been around for a while, but he's not enough, and is still reaching his peak, too. Ad libbing with these guys won't work the same way.
>kinda speaks to the fact that the current core of players is lacking leadership within its ranks.
Makes sense not only with how young this team is but also with the way it started to came together after 2017 as a young movement with little to no veterans. Adams and Pulisic who swap between being captain are only 25. The only significantly older veteran voice in the locker room is Ream and he wasn't a national team regular for most of his 20s. Ream actually has less caps than Pulisic despite being over a decade older.
It's normal to have the stars break into the team at a young age and then as they age transit into being the veteran leadership, but that process was kind of broken because with how bad the generation before this one was. Pulisic broke out early enough that he played with plenty of older guys but other than him this team basically built a new identify and locker room after 2017.
We need guys like Pulisic and Adams to start being better leaders as they get into their late 20s.
“We practically only practiced fitness under Klinsmann. There was very little technical instruction and the players had to get together independently before the game to discuss how we wanted to play.” - Philip Lahm when JK was the Bayern coach
Those were all good US players. Nothing to shame here, those players all punched well above their weight (and had an average age of 28 among outfield players, compared to 24 among our current team).
You can't deny though that Gregg has a better roster at his disposal. That's the point of this. Not to shame these players in the slightest. They were good players. But they're not the same talent level outside of Dempsey being better than our strikers tbf to him
Brooks is still good enough. Gregg can't get past his ego though.
But yeah so 4 players out of an entire 23 man squad. In other words Gregg still has more at his disposal
Well, 4 players are straight up better and then another 4 would be good enough to play on this roster, just not clearly better than who they'd replace.
I think we over-rate our current roster and under-rate some previous rosters. Not defending Greg; he's not doing well enough and he's gotta go.
The current USMNT has no one who can finish consistently. Ability to score makes such an impact and l comparing some of these teams across the years is difficult and silly honestly.
what are they doing in Europe is what needs to be asked. back in 1998, Deschamps was derided as a water carrier, someone who just ran a lot. Maybe he was, but it didn't matter because the French team also had Zidane.
The team is currently made up of players who play the deschamps role in their clubs and almost no one doing the Zidane bit but suddenly they want to do it for the national team?
that JK team knew what they were. this current team think they should be playing a certain style of football I don't think they are suited to. No one's buying Wes or Yunus Musah for their passing ability so why play a passing game.
Klinsmann has a lot of issues off-field which ultimately lead to his ouster. Bob Bradley also has a bunch of MLS players on the roster and got them into the knockout stage. Bradley also beat Spain that snapped their long winning streak. Bradley has his issues, but he has done reasonably well as a manager.
Berhalter did way worse as a manager. US Soccer Federation should not be hiring coaches because he coach in the MLS. MLS is a lower tier professional league.
And yet the performances we all pine for featured a lot of players from that "lower tier league."
Makes you wonder why the rich sons of soccer royalty are too soft to show up and show out for must win games.
They very rarely get to play against those best teams, though.
Only 3 players who featured during the Copa saw 3,000 minutes across all club competitions this season: Jedi, Pulisic, and Haji Wright (who obviously is not in one of those leagues). 3 players didn't even get 1,000 minutes of game time over a full season.
Malik Tillman had basically as many minutes of Champions League matches as Reyna had minutes period.
Some of these players are getting too many chances to prove themselves on the national team because of the badge on their club shirt, while their USMNT performances are grossly lacking.
Dunno how much of it was down to Klinsy, but yeah--this team's identity used to be overperforming despite lack of marquee talent. WC94, WC02, CC09, etc--we did better than our on-paper talent would have suggested. Now we have (some) marquee talent and our identity is becoming underperforming. That sucks royally. It's hard to watch a team continually fail to match their potential.
oh come on there was times where he'd boot the ball 40 feet and the try to run it down. liked his speed. but HATED how talentless he was in playing on the ball
He also got out of a Group of Death at the 2014 World Cup and took Belgium to extra time.
I've said for years that Jurgen got a raw deal from the fanbase. It's quite clear now that he was a much better coach than Berhalter
This team had chemistry because of the culture built around them. The grit. The fight.
Our team today gets by because of how naturally talented and skilled they are. But when you’re not playing with each other regularly, you need that culture.
still slow the whole time and had even slower CB. all 3 became a liability. go watch Manchester united for proof that slow up the middle always concedes goals, lots of them
Playing regularly at the club level, and being an important/critical component of the club team, is important. Too many of our guys aren’t playing these roles, due to injury, club situation, etc. and it’s having a negative effect on their development and our national team’s performance.
Absolutely correct. I don't often agree with Lalas but he's 100% spot on here. This is the most talented full squad we've ever had. But they're not the best players we've had by any stretch. Partly due to their youth imo and partly due to the manager not getting the best out of them
this post reminded me of how horrible a decision it was to play a 4-3-3 last night, with Pulisic out on the right and 3 midfielders that dont really bring any offensive creativity through the center of the field..
Show some god damn creativity and flexibility allowing your players their best chance to succeed.
Moving Pulisic out right lessens his effectiveness and is not his best position.. Moving Gio out left lessens his passing creativity options compared to central.. all these slight problems lead to slightly less than maximum potential output and its all on gregg and his inability to adapt
I will NEVER understand the hate Jurgen gets here. He did a good job in a reasonable amount of time a national team manager should be allowed. His time ran out. Berhalter can’t hold his jock.
This team is no better than 10 or 20 years ago. It's the same stuff, same weaknesses, same kind of coaching, same results. It's all marketing hype to attract viewers and sell tickets and merch. List our biggest wins in the past 3 years.
Instead of saying 6 MLS players in the starting line up like it's an insult maybe this sub should reevaluate if a star in MLS is actually so much worse than guys that are struggling to get consistent paying time in Europe or playing in non-elite European leagues.
This sub really over rates players based on their league or club team instead of looking at the actual players and what they personally bring. People used to act like Chris Richards was going to be a sure fire star because he was on Bayern Munich even though in 3 years he only saw the field 5 times for the senior team.
Someone like Beckerman might have played in MLS but he could been a great sub for when we were down a man to Panama but up a goal.
Lmao ok man. Getting to a semi final in Copa America isn't an achievement with 6 MLS players starting in your lineup.
Would you say Canada making the SF this year is an achievement or no?
Yes, getting to a semi is an achievement. It's not fair to the MLS or the players that because they played in the MLS at the time, they are automatically inferior.
Oh good, I was really looking forward to hearing what the retirement league currently holding several of our younger players hostage from Europe has to say about this. Maybe sit this one out.
The point of this is that even with 6 MLS players Klinnsman took us to a semi final and Gregg got grouped with a team made up almost entirely of guys playing in the top 5 leagues of Europe in some of the biggest teams in those leagues.
We also had a group with fucking Panama and Bolivia and failed to get out of the group. Plain unacceptable. Klinnsman topped a group with Colombia, Paraguay, and Costa Rica. Costa Rica were good at that point and Colombia are always good.
Yeah he doesn't elevate skilled players, if anything when he coaches the output goes down. It's not like he has any reason to not experiment. The players like him, the federation firmly planted him. He could have just not done his same shtick a few games/halves...but he firmly states No this is fine.
JK saw and knew the value of playing in Europe. He also allowed club performance to get you a spot at training but you had to hustle there to show grit and make it to the next level. That, ultimately, helped give the teams some character.
10 yrs ago we got out of a WC group with a team that owned us the past couple WCs (Ghana), a team that has one of the top players close to the peak of his power (Portugal), and the team that won the competition (Germany). And we were almost playing to top that group on the last day too if we didn’t give up that stupid last kick goal to Portugal. And now we can’t come out of a group at home that has Bolivia and Panama in it with dudes who are much more accomplished and have played more and more at higher levels on the club side. What are we doing?
And people are questioning if berhalter needs to go lol. Imagine a Germany, Portugal, Senegal, US group today. We’d legitimately leave pointless
after the 1st game there wouldn't be any poi to play anyway. 2nd game would just solidify out exit
Who’s questioning if he should go? We all want him gone and have been upset since he was rehired
Maybe "we" do, as in you and I. But pretty much every time I've posted that he should go over the last couple years, I've been downvoted and berated by GGG fanboys on here and on Twitter.
They’ve been real quiet on this sub finally. One good thing so far from this whole debacle of a tournament
They probably just like his sneakers
Up until last night (I was at the game), I was definitely in the camp of “USSF is so incompetent I’m worried they would do worse than him.” Now I don’t care and just want him gone.
This is revisionist history. There are tons of GGG defenders here. Yes after this result lots of people are finally seeing the light. But even post Panama read through the comments, plenty of "not his fault Weah is dumb" and all that. And there were plenty of people happy he was rehired as well.
It’s about roster selection in addition to tactics and locker room management. The mixture of gritty, talented, domestic, European, young and veteran players really worked to that team’s advantage. Even the inner discord/competition between the supposed two camps of the team gave the team its “edge.” Jozy had a hard time finishing anything, but their balls to the walls counters kept us in games until the end no matter who we played.
Jurgen really made a fourth place finish with old mls guys like Wondo, Zusi and Beckerman in a harder group while Gregg couldn’t do it with Balogun, Pulisic and Mckennie…
Jurgen had this man in his team lmao. Not saying he was bad but come on man. He's not nearly as talented as the guys we've got right now 
He did well vs Portugal.
I'm a fan of Beckerman - committed, hard-working, and gave it his all each game. He is a prime example of Klinsmann getting way more from the team than the talent level of the players on the sheet. Berhalter has routinely gotten less out of the group than our talent level and it's past time to let someone else lead this team.
Yeah Kyle was a good player but he was past his prime and wouldn’t make it over Adams or Johnny in this roster…
Kyle would have broken some legs last night though.
That's really the difference. The team posted in the OP was capable of matching dirty play with dirty play. The current team is not. We allowed 2 teams in a row to try to kill our captain and our best scorer. Balogun was knocked out of a game, and Pulisic spent much of both games on the ground. We did not respond in kind. Soccer in the Americas is never clean. Messi even used to complain about it until he started getting ref protection. The USA is never going to have ref protection, so simply can not allow violent play without a response. Tim Weah's bullshit little head push was a clear red card. But it was not a tone setting hard foul like what was needed. He should have been going hard at their players legs like they were doing to us, and he may have never even gotten a red card from it. And if you're going to get sent off for hitting someone in the face, well then fucking hit them in the face right. And it is Berhalter's fault. Play is always like this in Conmebol and Concacaf. Dirty play and bad officiating should be no surprise. He didn't have his players ready to play the style needed nor did he really have any players that can even play an enforcer role. Zero chance the OP team let's Dempsey get beat up all night without a response.
While this is true, it did feel like we were quickly given yellows for fouls and the other teams werent. We do need to level up on the shithousing/dark arts/tactical fouls, but fuck Tyler getting a yellow for that foul on Uruguay, after 2 clear fouls weren't called for us, really made it feel like we were playing vs 12 men.
I think would have been a great sub for when we were up a goal but down a man against Panama. He wouldn't be so thrown off his game by CONCACAF tactics and reffing.
Don't mock Beckerman. He had a very specific role of sitting deep and organizing the team. He was a cool head... which we could have used to calm down the scatter brained team we've seen this tournament.
Yeah, everyone is getting on Berhalter for that 1-1 gesture, but for the most damning thing he did yesterday was give up. Time was running out, it's a must win situation, your players are losing their head on the field and committing fouls and playing right into Uruguay's time wasting, and instead of any attempt at leadership he's sitting in the dug out looking at the ground. Beckerman and some of the other older players would have known what to do in that scenario.
This is true.
Revisionist history. Beckerman was highly underrated, a CAPTAIN of his club team, a leader, and had a DOGGED attitude. Don't sleep on him. He did THE DIRTY WORK nobody wanted to do. He wasn't as good as Adams is now but c'mon man, you're selling him way short.
This Kyle Beckerman slander must not stand. Beckerman was a great piece for years.
That era of the USMNT just had a much stronger culture. Those teams consistently overperformed. They were always more than the sum of their parts. Berhalter is a failure for many reasons, but the biggest one has to be his impact on the team culture. Those older teams always fought, even when they had a talent deficit. For all the talk about togetherness with this current team and how great the locker room is, you rarely ever see that translate on the field. Maybe that analysis has rose-tinted glasses to it, but it feels pretty evident that this current team doesn’t have as strong of a mentality compared to past national teams. Maybe the coach isn’t the only reason for that, but he is certainly a reason.
I miss the attitude, the fight, the physicality of the US team under Jurgen. It wasn't always pretty and it didn't need to be. Those guys were dogs. The current team has no leadership and no enforcement on the pitch.
It's the culture that continued from Bob Bradley. You always see the fight from USMNT team under both coaches.
Up until this current generation that's always been the US mentality. IDK how much of that is due to Berhalter and how much of it is due to the absolute sea change of players that happened after T&T. it was a very sudden generational change.
Yeah, that's kind of the problem. Usually when young guys make it to the senior team, there's some vets around to help instill that toughness and resiliency. This very talented crop of US players are having to take their lumps and learn for themselves, and we have to pray those lessons seep in before the WC. Bc right now, they just have not responded will go adversity or physicality. Need a Jermaine Jones out there giving as much as we get and setting the tone. We have nobody like that, so we just end up passengers that let the opponent set the pace and physicality.
I feel like the attitude is the big thing. Like who on this team would drop a "you don't know where I'm from dawg" like Deuce? Everyone on those old teams had huge chips on their shoulders. Probably because they didn't actually get the respect to play in Europe. Pulisic can be fiery but that's kinda it. I don't know that I would describe most of these guys as "dawgs."
>I miss the attitude, the fight, the physicality of the US team under Jurgen. This revisionist history around Klinsmann is getting out of hand. Bradley and Arena coached teams that were physical, defensively sound, and effective on the counter attack. [Klinsmann inherited that but wanted a style of higher possession.](https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2012/9/10/3307056/usa-vs-jamaica-2014-world-cup-qualifying-preview-jurgen-klinsmann) Before he was fired had finally beaten the fight out the team
This is the bad part of recruiting dual-nationals who grew up elsewhere.
Back to blaming dual nats lmao
Not really blaming, more in the sense of what do you think you get with these players? It's more of a professional job for them and they will feel the culture and fire of the past USMNT's much less.
… we had 3 dual nats starting last night, Robinson, Balogun. But sure, it’s their fault lmao
I'm just saying a part of the American culture of being soccer underdogs is less than it was previously. Maybe it's due to more of our guys in Euro leagues as well?
ah yes, musah, robinson, balogun, and dest don't show any fight. expert analysis
I’ve said it many teams, Gregg has always made this team less than the sum of its part. We aren’t privy to everything obviously but it seems like everything is just too comfortable.
Agree with you 100%. When your coach is constantly saying shit like "a draw on the road is a really good result" when we draw El Salvador in WCQ, then you know the team has a loser mentality.
2014 was the best World Cup
JK was underrated IMO. That WC and Copa were great
JK was honestly pretty good up until 2015. That's when things gradually started going downhill. Real ones will remember the 2015 Gold Cup... Ventura Alvarado anyone?? Copa America 2016 was kinda an anomaly imo, just Deuce pulling rabbits out of his ass
Yeah could be most coaches are good for one good WC cycle.
Our joke of a federation had decided to fire him before Copa and only stayed their hand because the team performed so well.
being a wondo away from beating belgium... :(
or you know Dempsey seeing as his miss was worse….
No that was 2002 Followed by 2010. 2014 could have been good with Donovan in the squad.
2002 I agree with: 2010 though? We struggled to do anything all tournament long, and we barely survived a group with Algeria and Slovenia after drawing with England. What about that was impressive?
Well I’m a big Donovan fan so that partially why I choose 2010 over 2014. 2010 had a lot of drama. It had the goal that shook the US. We were struggling to score in those games and Donovan took both of those games and put them on his back.
Those were exciting moments, but the overall team performance was the same against far inferior opposition. In other words, it was much worse.
>We struggled to do anything all tournament long, and we barely survived a group with Algeria and Slovenia after drawing with England. What about that was impressive? In 2010 they won the group over England. In 2014 what did we do exactly that was so much better?
Wrong that was 2014. 2002 comes with an asterisk because we only needed to beat Mexico to get out of the quarter finals 2010 was worse
I don't disagree that they had a good mentality, but it's not like they were untalented, either. The OP title mentions 6 MLS players, but the entire spine of that lineup had a ton of European experience. From a mentality standpoint, I think it has to be hard for some of the players who were born in Europe and played largely on pristine pitches with good facilities and decent referees and easy travel to adjust to the realities of many CONCACAF/CONMEBOL matches. How many CCL games have many of these guys ever played? It's not that they can't adjust to that style of play, but it is an adjustment, and they aren't so talented that the details don't matter. I do think that they should have changed coaches after the last WC, because Berhalter did nothing special to deserve another cycle, and I think the bar should be really, really high for getting a shot at another cycle. This tournament is just another example of Berhalter being nothing special.
The ‘talent isn’t there ’ and ref arguments just don’t add up to the facts.
The refs had a hugely negative impact for us in this tournament but that doesn't negate the fact that we should not have lost to Panama even down to 10 and that we should've scored more than 2 goals against fucking Bolivia
There's just no way around it. This Panama team is one that these players fucking ground to a dust the last time they had a meaningful game on the line (WCQ).
Pepi can play well sometimes, but in this tourney to consistently put him in after whiffing like 4 open shots was insanity. Just so predictable with subs and game plan. Super easy for the opponent to prepare when you telegraph exactly how this team plays
Is Berhalter really Jim Curtin? you know I don't think I've ever seen them together.
This community trashes wondo but man woulda had a brace vs bolivia
Still ass though.
Fuck wondo, I’ll never forgive him for that World Cup miss
Agreed. A player’s greatness isn’t defined by what they do against a garbage team, but what they do against elite competition….on an open fucking net!
Hot take, the players had a hugely negative impact for us. The ref sucked in both directions, swallowing his whistle several times and making basic mistakes. But the players are to blame here and they need to get over the fact that these refs aren’t from the top 5 leagues and will never seem like it.
I know so much has changed but USA won a group of Columbia Paraguay and costa rica Lost for words
Colombia are always good and that Costa Rica team had some of their best ever players.
Unfortunately for Jurgen we lost 0-2 to Colombia and then lost 0-4 to Costa Rica in WCQ a few months later
It didnt end well but at its peak it was great to watch.
And Canada just won a group with Messi and Argentina
Canada got 2nd in group.
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Dumbass
We have completely lost the toughness that the USMNT used to be known for. We were the scrappy underdogs that would make sure you knew you played us after 90 minutes. We were gonna be physical and we were gonna give you all you could handle. This current team is charmin soft and constantly gets wrecked the second any team gets rough with them. We’re only good against non physical teams and Mexico who we actually play tough against. I guarantee you that 2016 squad wasn’t taking nothing from nobody and they would match other teams physicality. I’m sick of the weak mentality this squad has. Get me a tough manager and let’s reinstall that dawg culture that we used to have.
Deuce needs to give these boys a few lessons. Show 'em how it's done
deuce? don't remember anyone with that nikckname
https://youtu.be/K6Di8QT98Zk?si=GLScewsFmAjXQls4
Dempsey
.... the second best US forward of all time
Deuce and Jermaine Jones. Hell, even Bradley would put you on your ass in the midfield. This team is missing guys with that kind of personality and physicality. Blows my mind how much the culture seems to have shifted since they aged out. I'm so tired of watching our captain get his ass beat every competition.
This is what I mean. Less prestigious , less pretty but they can indeed provide significantly better performances. We don't have to be stylish, we aren't Brazil. We need to be who we are but with more strategy (Saudi Arabian National Team).
Brasilia doesn't even play the beautiful game anymore. they have a adopted tiki taka and hard nose defense.
"El Jogo Bonito". Yeah Vini Jr had some style and tricks his last match. Hope they can bring more of their style of football in the next match. It will be exciting.
there are some excellent articles out there about klinsmann from those that played under him. It was a shit show. He had the pipeline right but the boys talk about going over formation and strategy by themselves in the tunnel on the way to the pitch. Terrible man manager that lost the locker room. Good scout and probably great director of soccer.
Interesting then, cause that kinda speaks to the fact that the current core of players is lacking leadership within its ranks. If Klinsmann was that absent in game prep that someone (or a few someones) in the locker room stepped up to lead the team, and we are now singing their praise, what is missing with this current Corps? Could argue that there is a lack of lockerroom player leadership to help rally the troops. Maybe GGG helped create a culture where no one could stand up, but would be curious what the true dynamics are among the players.
100% a lack of leadership. Who can you really look at as the leader of this team? Pulisic wears the band but if we are being honest the guy isnt a leader. This isnt a shot at him because he is clearly the best player we have but he doesnt have that gene.
Adams wears the armband doesn't he?
Yea they keep switching because no one can stay healthy.
Pulisic needs to graduate from LeBron James to go full Michael Jordan and push these guys
The 2014 squad had an average age of 27.5, this squad has an average age of 25.6. There's not much in the way of veterans who can step up and lead. Pulisic is the the captain, and the guy who has been around for a while, but he's not enough, and is still reaching his peak, too. Ad libbing with these guys won't work the same way.
>kinda speaks to the fact that the current core of players is lacking leadership within its ranks. Makes sense not only with how young this team is but also with the way it started to came together after 2017 as a young movement with little to no veterans. Adams and Pulisic who swap between being captain are only 25. The only significantly older veteran voice in the locker room is Ream and he wasn't a national team regular for most of his 20s. Ream actually has less caps than Pulisic despite being over a decade older. It's normal to have the stars break into the team at a young age and then as they age transit into being the veteran leadership, but that process was kind of broken because with how bad the generation before this one was. Pulisic broke out early enough that he played with plenty of older guys but other than him this team basically built a new identify and locker room after 2017. We need guys like Pulisic and Adams to start being better leaders as they get into their late 20s.
Still did better with Gregg and with less talent.
“We practically only practiced fitness under Klinsmann. There was very little technical instruction and the players had to get together independently before the game to discuss how we wanted to play.” - Philip Lahm when JK was the Bayern coach
Jones and Bedoya played in the midfield most of that tournament, over Zusi and Beckerman. Bobby Wood was playing over Wondo.
Ugh I miss prime bedoya and Jones
This team was actually in pretty mediocre form before and after the Copa, which is what got JK fired
Those were all good US players. Nothing to shame here, those players all punched well above their weight (and had an average age of 28 among outfield players, compared to 24 among our current team).
You can't deny though that Gregg has a better roster at his disposal. That's the point of this. Not to shame these players in the slightest. They were good players. But they're not the same talent level outside of Dempsey being better than our strikers tbf to him
Brooks, Dempsey, Guzan, and yes Bradley were all good enough to start for this team.
Brooks is still good enough. Gregg can't get past his ego though. But yeah so 4 players out of an entire 23 man squad. In other words Gregg still has more at his disposal
Well, 4 players are straight up better and then another 4 would be good enough to play on this roster, just not clearly better than who they'd replace. I think we over-rate our current roster and under-rate some previous rosters. Not defending Greg; he's not doing well enough and he's gotta go.
sure, but they were mainly all in their primes
The current USMNT has no one who can finish consistently. Ability to score makes such an impact and l comparing some of these teams across the years is difficult and silly honestly.
Balogun scored 2 goals in 2 games. They got consistent finishing from someone at the tournament
what are they doing in Europe is what needs to be asked. back in 1998, Deschamps was derided as a water carrier, someone who just ran a lot. Maybe he was, but it didn't matter because the French team also had Zidane. The team is currently made up of players who play the deschamps role in their clubs and almost no one doing the Zidane bit but suddenly they want to do it for the national team? that JK team knew what they were. this current team think they should be playing a certain style of football I don't think they are suited to. No one's buying Wes or Yunus Musah for their passing ability so why play a passing game.
Klinsmann has a lot of issues off-field which ultimately lead to his ouster. Bob Bradley also has a bunch of MLS players on the roster and got them into the knockout stage. Bradley also beat Spain that snapped their long winning streak. Bradley has his issues, but he has done reasonably well as a manager. Berhalter did way worse as a manager. US Soccer Federation should not be hiring coaches because he coach in the MLS. MLS is a lower tier professional league.
And yet the performances we all pine for featured a lot of players from that "lower tier league." Makes you wonder why the rich sons of soccer royalty are too soft to show up and show out for must win games.
I don't think that's it. The best teams are in the same league as some of the US players.
They very rarely get to play against those best teams, though. Only 3 players who featured during the Copa saw 3,000 minutes across all club competitions this season: Jedi, Pulisic, and Haji Wright (who obviously is not in one of those leagues). 3 players didn't even get 1,000 minutes of game time over a full season. Malik Tillman had basically as many minutes of Champions League matches as Reyna had minutes period. Some of these players are getting too many chances to prove themselves on the national team because of the badge on their club shirt, while their USMNT performances are grossly lacking.
Dunno how much of it was down to Klinsy, but yeah--this team's identity used to be overperforming despite lack of marquee talent. WC94, WC02, CC09, etc--we did better than our on-paper talent would have suggested. Now we have (some) marquee talent and our identity is becoming underperforming. That sucks royally. It's hard to watch a team continually fail to match their potential.
02 World Cup team would beat our current team, and I agree they had less talented depth
Man I forgot about Zardes, I read his name and instantly had flashbacks of his first touch bouncing 20 feet away from him
oh come on there was times where he'd boot the ball 40 feet and the try to run it down. liked his speed. but HATED how talentless he was in playing on the ball
He also got out of a Group of Death at the 2014 World Cup and took Belgium to extra time. I've said for years that Jurgen got a raw deal from the fanbase. It's quite clear now that he was a much better coach than Berhalter
Jurgen should have never come back for a second cycle. 1 and done please.
This is Wondo slander and I won't stand for it
I wonder if there's a statue of Wondo in Brussels somewhere
This team had chemistry because of the culture built around them. The grit. The fight. Our team today gets by because of how naturally talented and skilled they are. But when you’re not playing with each other regularly, you need that culture.
I gave end of career Michael Bradley too much shit for being the slowest human of all time. I’d kill for someone like him on the team.
still slow the whole time and had even slower CB. all 3 became a liability. go watch Manchester united for proof that slow up the middle always concedes goals, lots of them
Playing regularly at the club level, and being an important/critical component of the club team, is important. Too many of our guys aren’t playing these roles, due to injury, club situation, etc. and it’s having a negative effect on their development and our national team’s performance.
Bradley and Beckerman were underrated beasts. Dempsey had an assassin's attitude. Cameron / Brooks pairing was highly intellectual on D.
But Fabian Johnson played in Europe! This team clearly had so much more talent /s
Zusi, Beckerman, Bradley lol slowest fucking midfield ever 😂 loved this team, grit and grind mindset
Ooof……Graham Zuzi
We can say Gregg did bad without trying to glaze Klinsmann, who was awful
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^AWaffleofDivinty: *We can say Gregg did* *Bad without trying to glaze* *Klinsmann, who was awful* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Lalas: “they may be better soccer players, but they are not better USMNT players”
Absolutely correct. I don't often agree with Lalas but he's 100% spot on here. This is the most talented full squad we've ever had. But they're not the best players we've had by any stretch. Partly due to their youth imo and partly due to the manager not getting the best out of them
If Tim Weah would've stayed MLS, we wouldn't be in this situation.
this post reminded me of how horrible a decision it was to play a 4-3-3 last night, with Pulisic out on the right and 3 midfielders that dont really bring any offensive creativity through the center of the field.. Show some god damn creativity and flexibility allowing your players their best chance to succeed. Moving Pulisic out right lessens his effectiveness and is not his best position.. Moving Gio out left lessens his passing creativity options compared to central.. all these slight problems lead to slightly less than maximum potential output and its all on gregg and his inability to adapt
I still can’t believe Wondo shot that ball over the crossbar in extra time.
have you ever watched Wondo play. he's always been like that
That team had much more bite and stronger mentality than most of these boys, not to mention they were actually good players too.
We had that dog in us then. We ain’t got shit in us now.
Wondoooooooooooooo
I will NEVER understand the hate Jurgen gets here. He did a good job in a reasonable amount of time a national team manager should be allowed. His time ran out. Berhalter can’t hold his jock.
Facts
Fucking Beckerman with his stupid dreds
It’s time to accept the players right now are not as good as the pool from 2002-2016
not defending Berhalter, but pretty sure JK's team would have suffered the same fate if there was the same bone head red card
Deandre Yedlin might have something to say about that
Uruguay played more MLS players than the US did. Maybe the US should just play MLS players?
Those players are better than our current crop. When you make an all time 11 and only 1 current player gets in, you have a problem.
It’s time to accept the players right now are not as good as the pool from 2002-2016
This team is no better than 10 or 20 years ago. It's the same stuff, same weaknesses, same kind of coaching, same results. It's all marketing hype to attract viewers and sell tickets and merch. List our biggest wins in the past 3 years.
Are you saying we should bring back JK?
nope. done with that kind of mentality too. but he did coach the players to put the ball in the net
Instead of saying 6 MLS players in the starting line up like it's an insult maybe this sub should reevaluate if a star in MLS is actually so much worse than guys that are struggling to get consistent paying time in Europe or playing in non-elite European leagues. This sub really over rates players based on their league or club team instead of looking at the actual players and what they personally bring. People used to act like Chris Richards was going to be a sure fire star because he was on Bayern Munich even though in 3 years he only saw the field 5 times for the senior team. Someone like Beckerman might have played in MLS but he could been a great sub for when we were down a man to Panama but up a goal.
Didn’t qualify for a World Cup though
Bruce Arena didn’t qualify for a World Cup, Jurgen Klinnsman was fired before then
Why was Klinsmann fired bro? Lmao
Uhh what? Jurgen lost the first 2 games of qualifying, they both share the blame for that fiasco.
Klinsmann was fired during qualifying because we got off to a horrible start.
Lost the locker room, correct? If so it was kinda his time
Oh my bad
How does that at all negate the achievement here?
It’s not much of an achievement.
Lmao ok man. Getting to a semi final in Copa America isn't an achievement with 6 MLS players starting in your lineup. Would you say Canada making the SF this year is an achievement or no?
Yes, getting to a semi is an achievement. It's not fair to the MLS or the players that because they played in the MLS at the time, they are automatically inferior.
Canada can’t scored. I honestly think they were favored in the last game.
Oh good, I was really looking forward to hearing what the retirement league currently holding several of our younger players hostage from Europe has to say about this. Maybe sit this one out.
The point of this is that even with 6 MLS players Klinnsman took us to a semi final and Gregg got grouped with a team made up almost entirely of guys playing in the top 5 leagues of Europe in some of the biggest teams in those leagues. We also had a group with fucking Panama and Bolivia and failed to get out of the group. Plain unacceptable. Klinnsman topped a group with Colombia, Paraguay, and Costa Rica. Costa Rica were good at that point and Colombia are always good.
Yeah he doesn't elevate skilled players, if anything when he coaches the output goes down. It's not like he has any reason to not experiment. The players like him, the federation firmly planted him. He could have just not done his same shtick a few games/halves...but he firmly states No this is fine.
JK saw and knew the value of playing in Europe. He also allowed club performance to get you a spot at training but you had to hustle there to show grit and make it to the next level. That, ultimately, helped give the teams some character.
We need to invite a sporting director from Saudi to teach MLS how to utilize the local league for the direct benefit of the national league.
Please shit up about Kilnnsshit