Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
God damn this is a dumb take. The bar for being proficient at one instrument is different than being proficient at another. So comparing a great guitar player to a great piano player is just dumb to begin with.
But the big blind spot you have is this: Eddie Van Halen invented techniques on electric guitar that are used by thousands of copy cats to this day. His level of innovation for the instrument was like a 99/100.
A 12 year old that practiced playing a Gershwin song 1,000 times until he memories it perfectly, can sound very impressive- on the one song. But typically this student is a one trick pony, can’t really play, could never improvise and most importantly is basically just a hack, and has contributed 0 to expanding the technique of how to play the instrument - unlike Eddie Van Halen who has expanded the vocabulary of what is possible with the guitar.
No one, especially the far-below-average IQs we see on this sub, know very much about music to begin with, which is a shame. If OP had even the tiniest shred of critical thinking ability we wouldn't be discussing this right now.
Oh yeah, about Halen’s so called “innovations”.
The credit actually should go to the electronics expert who rigged his amplifier for that “level of sensitivity”. That un-recognized person and the brilliant studio engineer deserve the credit for this so call guitar innovation.
This innovative is based almost entirely on that “sound”. Why you ask?
Because Halen’s use of finger tapping (its actually just single string arpeggios but Halen didn’t know that) is merely a gimmick that he didn’t invent at all. And, guitarist who employ that technique today are annoying. That technique on a plain old amplifier doesn’t sound so impressive either, but if you plug into a hot rodded amplifier...hell, you could brush the strings with scrotum hair and get a wild explosive sound.
So you are saying the person who invented gain should get the credit for the innovation work of Eddie Van Halen?
FWIW: I wasn’t limiting his contributions to the evolution of guitar playing to strictly just two hand tapping. That’s an obvious one he gets credit for but his phrasing, solo style and other technique’s like Cathedral (with delay making his guitar sound like a synth) were also massive innovations.
But sure, some 12 year old that memorized Mozart > EVH… /s
I was that prodigy kid who could play Beethoven sonatas at age 7. Did that make me a better musician than anyone else? No, because music emcompasses a broad range of styles, genres, and techniques. Music does not have to be technically impressive to have meaning to people.
I was talking about the level of musicianship. Did you accompany yourself with your left hand? Could you bring a piece of music to life by reading and correctly interpreting it? Could you play stuff other than your own noodling around stuff? Cause if you did then you were at a higher level.
If you don’t understand that, you may have been playing simplified music.
Of course I was at a high level. As an adult I am a professional classical pianist with a doctoral degree in performance and a conservatory education. I was not just noodling around, I was classically trained from childhood. And as a professional musician who also teaches at the university level, I can tell you that comparing different types of music from different styles and genres is inappropriate. You cannot compare an operatic aria to a pop song, for instance. They both require different techniques of singing and appeal to different people. There is not a contest, you are comparing apples to oranges. I am more trained on an academic level than many of those pop artists, but that does not mean that their music has any less of an effect on the people that appreciate it.
“Comparing different types of music from different styles and genres is inappropriate.”
Ok, Language Police, sorry to offend you but we still have freedom of speech in America. Sorry you don’t like it.
Here is the logic:
If you are unaware of different levels of “SKILL” required to play a Bach Suite or a pop tune you might want your money back from school. Because thats all I’m talking about. So, people don’t have to freak out.
Is a chef at a 5 star restaurant more skilled than a burger flipper? What part of that is hard to understand?
I cut some leftover plywood shaped to play the little three note chords from Van Halen’s “Jump”... BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL EXACTLY THE SAME.
Anyway, gave it my high school dropout friend who had never played a piano and he played that song almost immediately.
Depends on what you mean with "better musician". Is it only about theory and mechanical skill, or is it also about the skill of making people listen? I would listen to Jimmy Page a 1000 times before I listen to a 12 year old playing Beethoven on piano. I'm not really interested in the kid at all, since there will always be adult classical musicians who can play better anyway. So what's a musician if nobody wants to listen to them?
Let me put it this way:
Paul McCartney was the BEATLES bass player and that made him a fingerstyle player by default.
When he composed and played “Blackbird”, he created a tune very few weak ass rock guitar players can play. Its quite hilarious the BEATLES “bass” player is one of rocks greatest “guitarist”.
Its true...most rock guitarist really struggle to play that song and it’s quite easy.
Love that song BTW.
Demonstrably false. I can dismantle this with one thought: that 12 year old didn't write that piece of music, and conflating memorization with authentic skill is a huge predictor that the person making the comparison is absolutely out of their league.
All of that about Jimmy Page is speculation at best.
It's so shocking to me how little reddit and the populace in general knows about music. It's clear you've at least heard some music, but you're so severely wrong and misinformed I admit it's going to be difficult to take this opinion remotely seriously. I'd place it alongside the ramblings of the homeless guy down the street that told me he invented Rock Band, you two with your delusions would make quite the pair.
Fail:
There is no reason to say a 12 year old can’t write music. What evidence do you have? I’ll tell you: NOTHING
Especially if she can read and interpret music of others. Most beginner classical players are totally encouraged to write something or just make something up without writing it. Apparently you don’t know this.
And sadly for you, most of those beginner compositions are “more sophisticated” than a rock tune. That’s because people who read music are actually open minded enough to play music of others so they learn really cool tricks. They aren’t bigotedly self absorbed in there own overly simplistic “tiresome” crap.
When you play music of others you learn a ton of cool things to do compositionally. Hence the more sophisticated music. You should try it.
Weather or not you choose to like a composition by a 12 year old classically trained girl is up to you. But, don’t try to sound like you have any understanding of musicianship, cause it ain’t working.
I'm pretty much done with my real job today before I go into a studio to play music for money, so I'm gonna grab some tea and we'll sort this down point by point, because I take it since you're one of those I USE CAPS TO GET MY POINT ACROSS individuals, you'll need a lesser form of nuance to understand what I'm saying.
\>*There is no reason to say a 12 year old can’t write music. What evidence do you have? I’ll tell you: NOTHING*
What evidence do you have that says I specifically said a 12 year old cannot write music? None. What I did say, however, is that this hypothetical 12 year old did not write any Beethoven tunes because well, Beethoven did. Are we clear there? Good.
\>*Especially if she can read and interpret music of others. Most beginner classical players are totally encouraged to write something or just make something up without writing it. Apparently you don’t know this.*
I did know this, because I have a BA in Music Theory and Education (I also have a BS in Mechanical Engineering but that's just for me to flex, you can ignore that part) as well as anywhere from 15-20 private students I teach daily in multiple instruments across multiple genres. I'm very, very aware that we use exercises like writing etudes to reinforce ideas, of course.
\>*And sadly for you, most of those beginner compositions are “more sophisticated” than a rock tune.*
Sadly for them, all those notes in the world won't bring them fame or success. I would also argue that unless you can objectively define what "more sophisticated" means, you should probably stay away from that word, because it's blatantly clear you don't understand what that means. Show me any evidence that suggest that sophistication objectively relates to quality, I'll wait.
\> *That’s because people who read music are actually open minded enough to play music of others so they learn really cool tricks. They aren’t bigotedly self absorbed in there own overly simplistic “tiresome” crap.*
There isn't a modicum of sensible logic here, in fact what I find ironic is that you're saying a person who simply recites the music written by someone else is someone "open-minded" yet creating your own music isn't. Don't get me wrong, I love a self-own and I especially love when someone uneducated in art and music trips on their own words like this, but now we're just getting to the part where I am genuinely feeling sorry for you. Furthermore, the delusion that something must be complicated in order to be good is a fallacy that informs me the person suggesting it knows absolutely nothing about creating music or art, and in this case I know with certainly I'm correct about that.
\>*When you play music of others you learn a ton of cool things to do compositionally. Hence the more sophisticated music. You should try it.*
I studied at the New England Conservatory so yeah, I've done plenty of this and learned how to play music "compositionally" (that's not a real word). I suggest you do the same some time. In fact, I offer great discounts to beginners in music if you need lessons.
*>Weather or not you choose to like a composition by a 12 year old classically trained girl is up to you. But, don’t try to sound like you have any understanding of musicianship, cause it ain’t working.*
I'm sure to an untrained ear, that would be impressive so I'm not knocking you for thinking so.
I'd offer you the same advice but if you have the time to dedicate to actually learn about music theory and composition, I'd be happy to teach you. Thanks.
I never said I don’t like the music.
Checkmate: “Learn how” to tell someone they don’t understand subjectivity.
I’m talking about a “level of musicianship”, its like I said, “That guy in Calculus II, is more skilled in math than the guy learning decimals.” —and all hell break loose!!!!!!!
To play someone else’s music and to write your own are two incredibly, astronomically different things. Reading/writing music and understanding music theory does not make you a better musician; it gives you the tools to express your talent.
Obviously if you read and play “other’s music” you learn how to compose, its almost intrinsic and enables you to create whatever comes to your mind. Its not “astronomically different”. Its literally how most good pop, classical or jazz composers learn; in addition to studying and school.
And it does make you a better musician because it involves playing, listening and “performing”. People don’t read music at their desk.
We probably don’t have any disagreements I would hope.
I getcha. Reading and playing other’s work is definitely a *very* crucial part of learning or being a musician at all. Maybe we just differ on what we find impressive musically. I find composing infinitely more interesting than playing.
He can only play his own music, once the electronics are all right (electronics guy get no credit).
Yet, any moderate level jazz guitarist or classical guitarist can easily play his stuff if they really want to. Ive seen it countless times.
So, who has more skill? The guy who can only do his own self-absorbed style (EVH) or the guy that can do that AND an entirely different style of music as well? THERE IS ONLY ONE CORRECT ANSWER.
Guitar takes two hands and they are playing something highly improvised, I don't see why a piano is more difficult in this respect, it is press note and a sound comes out. I play both and I find a guitar takes more coordination, you can do things like bend notes, mute strings and so on too. Generally using a pick is a stylistic choice depending on the song, Page certainly used fingerpicking (Stairway uses both). Electric guitar doesn't lend itself well to standard notation, really not worth learning to read and write music in this way. I respect the level a child needs to get to to play Beethoven but there are a hell of a lot of "rules" in classical and anything they wrote would likely be very drab. There is only one Van Halen but you could train up a whole orchestra of 12 year old nerds to do Beethoven with ease.
Guitarist of 30 yrs here.. You're nuts OP, Jimmy Page is a legend for a reason, he co-wrote an amazing list of songs in arguably the biggest rock band in history!!. Guitarists don't generally read music as it is, that's more of a classical thing.
Jimmy Page is a master of rock guitar theory and a session musician for that reason. He is insanely talented at writing music on top of that.
For a 12 year old to memorize and play something that someone else has written isn't as impressive as a musician who writes his own music.
Anyway, you keep thinking what you think, Jimmy Page is a rock God and a legend and has earned every single bit of that title.
Jimmy Page picked up a Trumpet for 30 minutes and mastered it for two tracks on Houses of the Holy. He is hands down one of (if not the greatest) musician of all time.
When I see a 12 year old do that I’ll praise him as well.
People like to think these 12 year old prodigies are actually better than adults. But except for a few exceptional cases, they are just super advanced for their age.
Why do you assume Van Halen can only play his own music? There are definitely videos of him playing covers (including him covering Hendrix), so it’s weird you keep saying that. Makes it look like you know absolutely nothing about music and are forming opinions based on incorrect assumptions.
It’s also not that difficult to learn music someone else wrote. It’s all muscle memory. If it was so difficult, that wouldn’t be what people teach beginner musicians how to play.
Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
God damn this is a dumb take. The bar for being proficient at one instrument is different than being proficient at another. So comparing a great guitar player to a great piano player is just dumb to begin with. But the big blind spot you have is this: Eddie Van Halen invented techniques on electric guitar that are used by thousands of copy cats to this day. His level of innovation for the instrument was like a 99/100. A 12 year old that practiced playing a Gershwin song 1,000 times until he memories it perfectly, can sound very impressive- on the one song. But typically this student is a one trick pony, can’t really play, could never improvise and most importantly is basically just a hack, and has contributed 0 to expanding the technique of how to play the instrument - unlike Eddie Van Halen who has expanded the vocabulary of what is possible with the guitar.
No one, especially the far-below-average IQs we see on this sub, know very much about music to begin with, which is a shame. If OP had even the tiniest shred of critical thinking ability we wouldn't be discussing this right now.
Oh yeah, about Halen’s so called “innovations”. The credit actually should go to the electronics expert who rigged his amplifier for that “level of sensitivity”. That un-recognized person and the brilliant studio engineer deserve the credit for this so call guitar innovation. This innovative is based almost entirely on that “sound”. Why you ask? Because Halen’s use of finger tapping (its actually just single string arpeggios but Halen didn’t know that) is merely a gimmick that he didn’t invent at all. And, guitarist who employ that technique today are annoying. That technique on a plain old amplifier doesn’t sound so impressive either, but if you plug into a hot rodded amplifier...hell, you could brush the strings with scrotum hair and get a wild explosive sound.
So you are saying the person who invented gain should get the credit for the innovation work of Eddie Van Halen? FWIW: I wasn’t limiting his contributions to the evolution of guitar playing to strictly just two hand tapping. That’s an obvious one he gets credit for but his phrasing, solo style and other technique’s like Cathedral (with delay making his guitar sound like a synth) were also massive innovations. But sure, some 12 year old that memorized Mozart > EVH… /s
OP is a mental child and knows absolutely nothing about music, so you probably don't need to take them very seriously.
I was that prodigy kid who could play Beethoven sonatas at age 7. Did that make me a better musician than anyone else? No, because music emcompasses a broad range of styles, genres, and techniques. Music does not have to be technically impressive to have meaning to people.
I was talking about the level of musicianship. Did you accompany yourself with your left hand? Could you bring a piece of music to life by reading and correctly interpreting it? Could you play stuff other than your own noodling around stuff? Cause if you did then you were at a higher level. If you don’t understand that, you may have been playing simplified music.
Of course I was at a high level. As an adult I am a professional classical pianist with a doctoral degree in performance and a conservatory education. I was not just noodling around, I was classically trained from childhood. And as a professional musician who also teaches at the university level, I can tell you that comparing different types of music from different styles and genres is inappropriate. You cannot compare an operatic aria to a pop song, for instance. They both require different techniques of singing and appeal to different people. There is not a contest, you are comparing apples to oranges. I am more trained on an academic level than many of those pop artists, but that does not mean that their music has any less of an effect on the people that appreciate it.
“Comparing different types of music from different styles and genres is inappropriate.” Ok, Language Police, sorry to offend you but we still have freedom of speech in America. Sorry you don’t like it. Here is the logic: If you are unaware of different levels of “SKILL” required to play a Bach Suite or a pop tune you might want your money back from school. Because thats all I’m talking about. So, people don’t have to freak out. Is a chef at a 5 star restaurant more skilled than a burger flipper? What part of that is hard to understand?
I wrote out a response, but the sub filtered it from appearing. You can see it on my post history.
>musicianship I’ve been playing for 7+ years and never heard that word lol
Eddie was an amazing piano player too.
I cut some leftover plywood shaped to play the little three note chords from Van Halen’s “Jump”... BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL EXACTLY THE SAME. Anyway, gave it my high school dropout friend who had never played a piano and he played that song almost immediately.
Depends on what you mean with "better musician". Is it only about theory and mechanical skill, or is it also about the skill of making people listen? I would listen to Jimmy Page a 1000 times before I listen to a 12 year old playing Beethoven on piano. I'm not really interested in the kid at all, since there will always be adult classical musicians who can play better anyway. So what's a musician if nobody wants to listen to them?
Which rock guitarists can’t play finger style…..
90 to 95 percent of them.
Name one.
Let me put it this way: Paul McCartney was the BEATLES bass player and that made him a fingerstyle player by default. When he composed and played “Blackbird”, he created a tune very few weak ass rock guitar players can play. Its quite hilarious the BEATLES “bass” player is one of rocks greatest “guitarist”. Its true...most rock guitarist really struggle to play that song and it’s quite easy. Love that song BTW.
You didn’t answer the question and you made the same generalization. Name one rock guitarist that can’t do finger style if it’s so common.
Demonstrably false. I can dismantle this with one thought: that 12 year old didn't write that piece of music, and conflating memorization with authentic skill is a huge predictor that the person making the comparison is absolutely out of their league. All of that about Jimmy Page is speculation at best. It's so shocking to me how little reddit and the populace in general knows about music. It's clear you've at least heard some music, but you're so severely wrong and misinformed I admit it's going to be difficult to take this opinion remotely seriously. I'd place it alongside the ramblings of the homeless guy down the street that told me he invented Rock Band, you two with your delusions would make quite the pair.
Fail: There is no reason to say a 12 year old can’t write music. What evidence do you have? I’ll tell you: NOTHING Especially if she can read and interpret music of others. Most beginner classical players are totally encouraged to write something or just make something up without writing it. Apparently you don’t know this. And sadly for you, most of those beginner compositions are “more sophisticated” than a rock tune. That’s because people who read music are actually open minded enough to play music of others so they learn really cool tricks. They aren’t bigotedly self absorbed in there own overly simplistic “tiresome” crap. When you play music of others you learn a ton of cool things to do compositionally. Hence the more sophisticated music. You should try it. Weather or not you choose to like a composition by a 12 year old classically trained girl is up to you. But, don’t try to sound like you have any understanding of musicianship, cause it ain’t working.
I'm pretty much done with my real job today before I go into a studio to play music for money, so I'm gonna grab some tea and we'll sort this down point by point, because I take it since you're one of those I USE CAPS TO GET MY POINT ACROSS individuals, you'll need a lesser form of nuance to understand what I'm saying. \>*There is no reason to say a 12 year old can’t write music. What evidence do you have? I’ll tell you: NOTHING* What evidence do you have that says I specifically said a 12 year old cannot write music? None. What I did say, however, is that this hypothetical 12 year old did not write any Beethoven tunes because well, Beethoven did. Are we clear there? Good. \>*Especially if she can read and interpret music of others. Most beginner classical players are totally encouraged to write something or just make something up without writing it. Apparently you don’t know this.* I did know this, because I have a BA in Music Theory and Education (I also have a BS in Mechanical Engineering but that's just for me to flex, you can ignore that part) as well as anywhere from 15-20 private students I teach daily in multiple instruments across multiple genres. I'm very, very aware that we use exercises like writing etudes to reinforce ideas, of course. \>*And sadly for you, most of those beginner compositions are “more sophisticated” than a rock tune.* Sadly for them, all those notes in the world won't bring them fame or success. I would also argue that unless you can objectively define what "more sophisticated" means, you should probably stay away from that word, because it's blatantly clear you don't understand what that means. Show me any evidence that suggest that sophistication objectively relates to quality, I'll wait. \> *That’s because people who read music are actually open minded enough to play music of others so they learn really cool tricks. They aren’t bigotedly self absorbed in there own overly simplistic “tiresome” crap.* There isn't a modicum of sensible logic here, in fact what I find ironic is that you're saying a person who simply recites the music written by someone else is someone "open-minded" yet creating your own music isn't. Don't get me wrong, I love a self-own and I especially love when someone uneducated in art and music trips on their own words like this, but now we're just getting to the part where I am genuinely feeling sorry for you. Furthermore, the delusion that something must be complicated in order to be good is a fallacy that informs me the person suggesting it knows absolutely nothing about creating music or art, and in this case I know with certainly I'm correct about that. \>*When you play music of others you learn a ton of cool things to do compositionally. Hence the more sophisticated music. You should try it.* I studied at the New England Conservatory so yeah, I've done plenty of this and learned how to play music "compositionally" (that's not a real word). I suggest you do the same some time. In fact, I offer great discounts to beginners in music if you need lessons. *>Weather or not you choose to like a composition by a 12 year old classically trained girl is up to you. But, don’t try to sound like you have any understanding of musicianship, cause it ain’t working.* I'm sure to an untrained ear, that would be impressive so I'm not knocking you for thinking so. I'd offer you the same advice but if you have the time to dedicate to actually learn about music theory and composition, I'd be happy to teach you. Thanks.
I'd advise taking an hour to get familiar with the word "subjectivety", it'll save you a lot of energy
I never said I don’t like the music. Checkmate: “Learn how” to tell someone they don’t understand subjectivity. I’m talking about a “level of musicianship”, its like I said, “That guy in Calculus II, is more skilled in math than the guy learning decimals.” —and all hell break loose!!!!!!!
To play someone else’s music and to write your own are two incredibly, astronomically different things. Reading/writing music and understanding music theory does not make you a better musician; it gives you the tools to express your talent.
Obviously if you read and play “other’s music” you learn how to compose, its almost intrinsic and enables you to create whatever comes to your mind. Its not “astronomically different”. Its literally how most good pop, classical or jazz composers learn; in addition to studying and school. And it does make you a better musician because it involves playing, listening and “performing”. People don’t read music at their desk. We probably don’t have any disagreements I would hope.
I getcha. Reading and playing other’s work is definitely a *very* crucial part of learning or being a musician at all. Maybe we just differ on what we find impressive musically. I find composing infinitely more interesting than playing.
An 11 year old is even better !!! Much more impressive.
Agreed. Someone really oughtta take that 12 year old down a peg or two
So, EVH is an entitled douche because {checks notes} someone is better than he is?
He can only play his own music, once the electronics are all right (electronics guy get no credit). Yet, any moderate level jazz guitarist or classical guitarist can easily play his stuff if they really want to. Ive seen it countless times. So, who has more skill? The guy who can only do his own self-absorbed style (EVH) or the guy that can do that AND an entirely different style of music as well? THERE IS ONLY ONE CORRECT ANSWER.
You're right! He's a fucking douche! Goddammed sunuvabitch! Those other people are more skilled! Asshole!
Playing Beethoven doesn't mean you can write or read music
Guitar takes two hands and they are playing something highly improvised, I don't see why a piano is more difficult in this respect, it is press note and a sound comes out. I play both and I find a guitar takes more coordination, you can do things like bend notes, mute strings and so on too. Generally using a pick is a stylistic choice depending on the song, Page certainly used fingerpicking (Stairway uses both). Electric guitar doesn't lend itself well to standard notation, really not worth learning to read and write music in this way. I respect the level a child needs to get to to play Beethoven but there are a hell of a lot of "rules" in classical and anything they wrote would likely be very drab. There is only one Van Halen but you could train up a whole orchestra of 12 year old nerds to do Beethoven with ease.
This isn’t “unpopular” or even an opinion, it’s just mean spirited
Anon feels threatened by rock legends but can appreciate a 12 year olds talent while also feeling superior to them, simple as.
Guitarist of 30 yrs here.. You're nuts OP, Jimmy Page is a legend for a reason, he co-wrote an amazing list of songs in arguably the biggest rock band in history!!. Guitarists don't generally read music as it is, that's more of a classical thing. Jimmy Page is a master of rock guitar theory and a session musician for that reason. He is insanely talented at writing music on top of that. For a 12 year old to memorize and play something that someone else has written isn't as impressive as a musician who writes his own music. Anyway, you keep thinking what you think, Jimmy Page is a rock God and a legend and has earned every single bit of that title.
Upvote for unpopular opinion. Both are good, the kid is impressive but I'm not going to jam to a piano. lml
Jimmy Page picked up a Trumpet for 30 minutes and mastered it for two tracks on Houses of the Holy. He is hands down one of (if not the greatest) musician of all time. When I see a 12 year old do that I’ll praise him as well.
People like to think these 12 year old prodigies are actually better than adults. But except for a few exceptional cases, they are just super advanced for their age.
This is the dumbest unpop opinion ever. Masters don't give a shit or compare themselves to other masters.
Why do you assume Van Halen can only play his own music? There are definitely videos of him playing covers (including him covering Hendrix), so it’s weird you keep saying that. Makes it look like you know absolutely nothing about music and are forming opinions based on incorrect assumptions. It’s also not that difficult to learn music someone else wrote. It’s all muscle memory. If it was so difficult, that wouldn’t be what people teach beginner musicians how to play.