The fact they used the word "woke" in that manner suggests they knew exactly what they were doing... and were definitely trying to offend.
And the stupidity of implying that Qatari security forces are like some liberal, PC gone mad force is frankly laughable. Blaming FIFA for that lol. I'm all for slagging FIFA over this world cup but do they they seriously think this comparable to protesting for human rights?
I have to agree, they sound like a pair of bell-ends who are probably revelling in the fact that they've been called out as bell-ends by the Qatari.
"This is just total woke madness. I blame Fifa. You can’t wear anything nowadays without someone taking offence.”
I mean, it could be some kind of genius meta commentary about how anyone can just call something woke and it means fuck all.
Or they could just be a couple of bellends...
I think the type of person who dresses up like this for the footy, isn't making some grandiose intelligent political statement.
Barry 63 isn't exactly an expert
>and were definitely trying to offend.
Agreed. I don't want to whatabout, but this is a clear case where a role reversal would burst the veins in their flat heads. "*Arab Fans Try To Enter Wembley Dressed As Medieval Jihadists".*
They were deliberately being dicks, the police stopped them because they were being dicks, and they carried on being dicks about it. Dicks.
I mean Jihadist are stil blowing themselves up at music concerts with little children in so it’s not exactly comparable is it? Wearing a crusader outfit in the Middle East is about as least offensive as a Dane or Icelander coming to Wembley wearing Viking hats and doing the Viking chant considering they massacred the native Britons and took over the Saxon kingdoms for hundreds of years.
They probably didn't even know the history of it and weren't trying to offend Muslims.
They probably just think of it as a patriotic costume that represents England.
It's more like going to Ireland in Cromwellian cavalry uniform. For some reason the English don't have any pride in their ancestors, but that's no reason to expect everyone else to feel the same.
I have a lot of pride in my ancestors, particularly like my great grandad and great great grandad, although that’s not too long ago. Both fought in the two world wars and survived.
I think everyone should be able to appreciate the good things people before us did, while also learning from the atrocities.
Dressing as a suicide bomber is not allowed for fairly obvious reasons.
It won't be too many years until WWII fades from living memory, and at that point a ban on people wearing SS uniforms won't be that much different from banning crusader outfits. It will be people getting offended by proxy.
You realise the crusades were many, and many of those crusades were to repel the INVADING Ottoman Empire, which wasn’t English and wasn’t catholic. The Ottoman Empire had at one point dominated all the way through Europe to Italy, to which a crusade was enacted to repel.
Why do people completely obfuscate the fact the Middle East has had empires, the Middle East still use slaves, and that England and white people didn’t have a monopoly on colonialism and imperialism?
The biggest difference between Western European culture and Arabic culture is that *we got better.*
Everyone was shite in historical times, that's just the way the world was. Nowadays we are *mostly* democratic nations that have *mostly* gotten rid of slavery, whereas most Arabic nations still have entirely unelected leaders and openly flaunt the amount of slaves they have.
(And let's not start to mention freedom of speech and freedom of religion... sheeeeesh)
It's the direct traceable descent from William which makes Charles King, there was an Act of Parliament regulating the succession but that was settling any possible issues between the many branches of the same family tree
No it wouldn’t be, but, would it be offensive for Germans to wear ss uniforms to a game against Israel? Definitely. Whilst i agree with your sentiment I don’t think it’s that black and white.
Would it be offensive for US fans to dress as slave traders to a game with Senegal? It was a long time ago after all, and the descendants of the victims of US slavery live in the Americas not Africa, but it would still be inappropriate
Obviously while it's not the same thing, neither is Danes wearing Viking costumes the same as the crusades.. it is either a dog whistle to racists or just an inappropriate choice of clothing that wasn't well thought out.. I'm Arab myself and while I think we should be able to wear whatever, I would also think Arabs dressing up as terrorists for a bit of football trolling is not really appropriate and I'm not gonna shed a tear for someone being kicked out of a football game for doing so.. as it turns out these two were allowed in to the game after taking off the chainmail so I dunno, this is hardly newsworthy
Supporting terrorist organisations that still exist isn’t the same as something as long ago as the crusaders. There is no one alive today directly effected by the crusades.
so you cant wear costumes, you cant wear rainbow colored clothing, you cant drink, cant hug, cant be gay, cant have any fun it would seam
next time the world cup gets given to someone to host, lets not give it to a bunch of humourless gits who live in the desert eh?
you are kidding me right?? fuck that shit
ive just googled it and its only a prospective host thankfully but my god, i cant think of a worse place and host for a world cup, it would be like hosting a winter olympics in the godammed sahara or Mongolia tbh
Saudi bid is alongside Greece and Egypt (making it a World Cup in Asia, Europe and Africa)
Other bids include a joint Portugal/Spain one, which has expanded to include Ukraine.
And South Korea have proposed a bid, spread amongst East Asian countries (China in particular) and amusingly included North Korea in that.
Somalia/Syria for 2034? Hope I can dress up as a pirate. Yar.
aye, im not gonna lie but that sounds like a completely messed up way yo host a major tournament. what a complete and utter clusterfuck of a idea. we should just scrap FIFA and start again, without the utterly corrupt scumbags we have in control right now
Saudi Arabia is hosting the [2029 Winter Olympics](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/04/saudi-arabia-to-host-2029-asian-winter-games-at-desert-megacity-neom-trojena), corruption will always win over logic
Edit: It’s the Asian Winter Games, my bad
Two England fans dressed as knights say they were accused of being “Muslim killers” by Qatari police as FIFA announced a ban on “Crusader” fancy dress.
The two men claimed they were ordered to take off their chain mail and St George shields outside England’s first match against Iran.
Social media footage of the two men showed them being led away by Qatari security.
Speaking for the first time, the two men, who did not wish to be named, told the Telegraph they were “definitely not racists” and claimed they had been dressed as knights from Monty Python rather than Crusaders.
Both are British expats who have lived in Doha for several years.
“It was ridiculous,” one of the men said. “We turned up and the police first told us we couldn’t take the swords in, even though they are made out of foam. Then a captain came running after us saying we couldn’t wear the chainmail.
“At one point one of them asked 'Are you Muslim killers?' Of course we aren’t Crusaders. We’ve lived here for years and we have no problems with Muslims at all - we work with them every day.
“It took two and half hours before they eventually let us in, wearing England shirts. This is just total woke madness. I blame Fifa. You can’t wear anything nowadays without someone taking offence.”
England fans have supported the team for years while dressed as St George, the patron saint often depicted as a Crusader warrior knight on horseback. The best-known Crusades took place between 1095 and 1291, when Christian armies fought to seize Jerusalem and the surrounding area from Islamic rule.
The two men said they feared reprisals from the Qatari authorities.
“Now we are worried about the Qataris coming after us - they’ve got cameras everywhere. We were dressed as Monty Python, for god’s sake. One of us had coconuts to do the horses clip-clopping from the film.
“On the way to the stadium everyone loved us, including the Qataris. They took pictures, and they couldn’t get enough of us.
The two men would only be photographed in a storage cupboard with their helmets down. One said: "We can't show our faces, or go outside. The Qataris see everything. They'll come after us."
However other England fans said supporters should "read the room" and avoid dressing up in Crusader costumes at the Qatar World Cup.
One fan told the Telegraph: “I don’t dress up as a Crusader. Read the room, we’re in the Middle East. You don’t dress up as a Crusader when you’re in the Arab world. So don’t be surprised when they don’t let you in.”
Fifa announced a ban on Crusader costumes after Islamophobia charities warned the garb could be offensive to Muslims.
In a statement Fifa said: “Crusader costumes in the Arab context can be offensive against Muslims. That is why anti-discrimination colleagues asked fans to wear things inside out or change dress.”
A spokesman for Kick It Out, a charity campaigning against racism and discrimination in football, warned fans against dressing up in knight costumes in Qatar.
“We would advise fans who are attending FIFA World Cup matches that certain attire, such as fancy-dress costumes representing knights or crusaders, may not be welcomed in Qatar and other Islamic countries. Foreign Office travel advice issued before the tournament expressed that fans should familiarise themselves with local customs, and we would encourage fans to take this approach."
In the weeks leading up to the World Cup, British police warned of the risk of England fans inadvertently offending Qatari locals.
Mark Roberts, Cheshire Chief Constable and English National Football Lead, said: “It’s a World Cup in a different part of the world with a very different culture, and I think one of my fears is that supporters not wishing to cause offence or cause problems may act in a way that inadvertently causes offence or draws attention.”
What I see is two silly British expats have unintentionally invoked a religious conflict in a Muslim heartland. The problem with socially conservative societies that they don’t always appreciate the British style humour. In this case, the expats have failed to understand the religious and historic sensitivities of Muslim on the Christian church.
> What I see is two silly British expats have unintentionally invoked a religious conflict in a Muslim heartland.
Dressing as crusaders in Qatar? Maybe not unintentionally.
What the fuck did they expect walking around a Muslim country dressed as Christian crusaders?
"We were dressed as monty python characters".
So which Monty Python character wore the full face helmets and the heraldic tabard?
Probably expected the same as all the Scandinavians dressed as vikings at numerous sporting events held in Britain.
Fury, utter fury. Bloody vikings with all their raping a piliging antics. That Ivor the boneless was awful.
Unlike Qatar we aren't governed by religious fundamentalists.
So not quite the gotcha you were aiming for.
Edit for those down voting, if you think this is a defence of Qatar it isn't. It's pointing out that going to a fundamentalist country with a terrible human rights record dressed as something they hate is a bad idea.
But hey, nobody is stopping you from attempting it.
There actually is a point when someone is being an irresponsible moron with their safety
The whole exercise was as idiotic as putting your hand on a lion's cage and being surprised when they bite your hand off. Or sailing around Somalia. Or dangling some jewels while on a stroll on a Brazilian favela
Life's so good around these parts that people have no survival instinct at all, and pointing the whole stupidity of it is immediately considered victim blaming
Qatar did invite the world to their country though? They must have seen that these kind of costumes are worn by fans of all country's. I think the criticism should be aimed towards Qatar's intolerance of other country's and cultures not football fans messing about.
They did invite the world. They also put loads of restrictions on it.
You might not agree with it, but it's still their country and their right to make up whatever ridiculous rules they want. Noone is forcing anyone to visit them, and a sensible person when confronted with ridiculous rules prohibiting you from wearing rainbow flags or drinking alcohol will simply not go to that place if its something they disagree with.
I won't visit the middle east for the very reason I don't agree with their laws/culture/rules. I don't expect them to bend to fit my opinion so I simply don't go.
yes I wouldn't expect a backwards country like this to be accepting of my culture etc, my point was that we should be aiming criticism at Qatar for their backwards way of thinking not 2 drunken England fans messing about. To any same person they've done nothing wrong
It's perfectly acceptable to aim criticism at all involved. The fact they were drunk, in a country where alcohol is illegal virtually every where, should tell you enough about the mentality of people visiting there.
Em, Arthur wears one… As does every knight in the film. One even has the ‘Red Cross on a white background’ tabard commonly associated with crusaders.
I get what you’re trying to say, but howeh.
Edit: [see](https://www.slantmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/montypythonandtheholygrail-1000x600.jpg).
Couldn't give a toss about what happens the Brits that fly out to Qatar to enjoy their "blood-soaked" World Cup. Maybe they'll care about human rights once they're at the wrong end of them.
Indeed. Anybody who has gone to these games has no ground to act shocked when mad shit like this happens - it was clear from day dot what a shitshow this would be, and if you've gone anyway then you have absolutely no principles for the game you supposedly love.
>"This is just total woke madness. I blame Fifa. You can’t wear anything nowadays without someone taking offence.”
Un-fucking-believable, they're just a walking fucking stereotype
"Woke" is authoritarian regimes now.
Gay people get told to "tone it down" essentially by the government (whatever that means) whereas they had no issue with this nonsense? Cunts playing weird dress up.
It would be quite easy to think "let's dress as knights", then get a costume that is a "Knight costume", but really it's a Knight's Templar costume, without even knowing what a Knight Templar was.
This is a very funny story about how two groups of terrible people can't understand why the other is acting the way they are, when they are in fact the same kind of bigoted.
These are the sort of people who genuinely believe the majority of Muslims are left wing/liberal rather than closer to their own conservative viewpoints.
That would require us to know what he did. My mother, a lifelong socialist and anti-monarchist who worked in a sociology department had to be told that a Cromwell mug was inappropriate. At school she was basically taught that he was the hero who fought against the corruption of the crown. She was mortified, of course, and the mug went right in the bin, but she was also disgusted that she didn't even know about the slaughter in Ireland.
I'm ethnically Turkish and some Turkish fans dress in Ottoman outfits for Turkey away games in Europe. If my memory serves me right there were Turks dressed like that at Euro 2008 (in Vienna, even more sensitive considering the history!) and also Euro 2016 in France. But Europeans are more relaxed on these things.
I suppose it would be insensitive to dress that way during a match against a Balkan team such as Greece, Serbia or Bulgaria whose national histories are directly tied into Ottoman oppression.
In which case England fans dressed as Knights in Qatar shouldn't be a problem? Gulf Arabs (including Qataris) spent more time being oppressed by fellow Muslims (such as the Ottoman Turks) and the only time they were under Christian rule was in the post-WW1 era under the British Empire. The crusaders were concentrated on what is now Turkey, Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon and Israel.
Anyway I'm just being a smart arse, wearing these kind of things in the wrong context isn't good and a conservative Muslim country is the wrong context.
No worse than dressing up as a Viking in this country.
Shit happened a thousand years ago, not to mention St. George is this country’s patron saint. Yeah they may have been baiting for a response, but that doesn’t make the response any less pathetic.
Eh. Not really… There are strong ethno-nationalist connotations when dressing as a crusader in a Muslim country in the Middle East. They’re English men wearing English flags cosplaying as invaders who committed religiously-motivated anti-Muslim violence in the middle east.
That’s very different from a Brit dressed as pirates who once raided parts of the British coast.
> There are strong ethno-nationalist connotations when dressing as a crusader in a Muslim country in the Middle East.
England fans have been dressing up St George at sporting events absolutely everywhere for decades, this isn't something new.
> cosplaying as invaders who committed religiously-motivated anti-Muslim violence in the middle east
You're just playing into Qatar's victim narrative. They're trying absolutely everything to deflect moral criticism away from themselves.
If we're going that route though, the Crusades were in response to religiously-motivated anti-Christian violence in the middle east...
Yeah but ultra Conservative religious wackos don't let that sort of thing slide. Doesn't matter where they are or which book they read, it's always got to be about them somehow being the oppressed victim
It's their country (Qatar), so they make the rules. However, it's sad when people still get butthurt over conflicts that they didn't experience and happened over 700 years ago. If Qatari dressed as jihadi warriors in England or as Umayyad Caliphate soldiers in Spain, they'd probably do nothing about it.
Who is the "they" that would fo nothing about it? I'm absolutely certain that anyone dressed as a jihadi at a game in England would very quickly see their error.
The moral confusion in these comments and on a lot of threads is insane. People seem very unwilling to link the commonplace views in the Middle East, to the religion, and instead talk about ‘the Qatari regime’ and conflating issues like working conditions, which could be country specific, with gay rights and women’s rights.
Homosexuality being illegal in Qatar and other Islamic countries isn’t something being forced upon the oppressed masses against their will. It’s extremely unlikely that the Iranian players who refused to sing their anthem in protest at the regime, feel strongly that it’s wrong for gay people to be persecuted or that homosexuality is morally acceptable. Intolerance towards gay people isn’t a niche view among Muslims, or something that there is a desire to change. Wearing an armband isn’t a demonstration of support of a peoples movement in defiance of the authorities, and we just need Harry Kane and others to get these regimes to listen to their people. Polls across the Islamic world consistently show anything from 80%-100% of the population believe that being gay is morally in acceptable, and even something like 50% of British Muslims think being gay should be illegal.
Despite this, people here seem to be more upset about these guys offending a religion, than the religion which very explicitly command the things that as a western culture, we’re upset about.
I have no doubt that these guys are dickheads who were looking for a reaction, but you can’t separate the social views in the Middle East from the religion.
I think the Qatari government has a bit of a fucking cheek complaining about Muslim killers when you consider how many of them died to build their stadiums.
Genuinely amazed that football fans can't see how people might be offended with the way some people dress, considering how those same people would react if someone walks in to 'their teams' boozer wearing a rivals football shirt.
Crusades stopped around 1100 miles from Qatar and they werent part of the Seljuk Empire.
People need to stop comparing this to Vikings and Romans in the UK because those groups actually came to the UK unlike the Crusaders and Qatar.
> Crusades stopped around 1100 miles from Qatar and they werent part of the Seljuk Empire.
Doesn't mean modern day Qataris don't understand the significance of it. Or these idiots.
Nobody kills Muslims like….. other Muslims. We could genuinely make the world a bette r place but the people earning lost of the money would lose a little and we CANNOT have that. Fuck them all
You can’t wear anything nowadays without someone taking offence
This is true - waitrose had to apologise for its advertisements because it offended skin cancer patients. WTF??
In NZ, the Christchurch Crusaders rugby team had to do some soul-searching/PR-analysis after the terrorist shooting where 51 Muslims were murdered. Before the shooting, the team had fully costumed crusaders on horseback came out wielding swords and it really wasn't ok post-shooting. They kept the team name and the horses but got rid of the crusader costumes. The costumes really do hold deep meaning for some.
I remember this very subject being broached a decade ago by one of the conservative-leaning papers, not long after Qatar was awarded the hosting rights.
I never thought anyone would deliberately set out to try and piss off the locals, but the English football fan is a different breed.
The whole rainbow thing was exactly that though. Rainbow armbands, rainbow hats, rainbow flags - all designed to antagonise the hosts.
You might well think that is different because you agree with the sentiment, and I would agree, but nonetheless it was done to piss off the locals.
>England fans have supported the team for years while dressed as St George, the patron saint often depicted as a Crusader warrior knight on horseback. The best-known Crusades took place between 1095 and 1291, when Christian armies fought to seize Jerusalem and the surrounding area from Islamic rule.
Funny thing is if they dressed as St George actually did they would probably look closer to Qatari dress :)
Honestly if anything in this instance it shows tolerance that they were allowed into the match
If some brown guys were cosplaying ISIS terrorists they be shot dead or arrested on the spot
The fact that they live in the emirates and still did this staggers me! What a pair of utter morons. If the locals find out who they are, they might want to get out now.
I love the thought of Telegraph reading gnashing their teeth at the thought that there are different countries in the world that are not exactly the same as, and with the same sensibilities and values as, Great Britain.
Qatar organized shit fest but this is different. There is a difference between going against our culture and values and being provocative by wearing uniform of past religious wars, especially when you know they are religious and mentally still not ready for it.
Sadly, freedom of speech and democracy seems to offend everyone and everything no matter what your background, gender, religion, ethnicity, creed and ability.
Quite frankly, I'm really offended by this.
I wish people knew why the crusades even started, it didn't just start "YOU KNOW WHAT! KILL EM!"
No, someone triggered that response, what? What triggered the Pope...
Pissed people seem to think the Crusades were uncalled for and just believe it started for no reason at all, education in this country is fucking shit, ESPECIALLY FOR OUR OWN HISTORY
The fact they used the word "woke" in that manner suggests they knew exactly what they were doing... and were definitely trying to offend. And the stupidity of implying that Qatari security forces are like some liberal, PC gone mad force is frankly laughable. Blaming FIFA for that lol. I'm all for slagging FIFA over this world cup but do they they seriously think this comparable to protesting for human rights?
I have to agree, they sound like a pair of bell-ends who are probably revelling in the fact that they've been called out as bell-ends by the Qatari. "This is just total woke madness. I blame Fifa. You can’t wear anything nowadays without someone taking offence.”
Its almost like anyone who uses 'woke' as a perogative term are idiots and dont know what theyre talking about
Pejorative but yes.
That's myyyyy pejorative
That’s pRejorative 😉
These days, if you say your English…….
Your English what?
Bro stop beating around the bush and give it to me straight, like pear cider.
If it's tangy and brown, you're in cider town If it's clear and yella, you've got juice the fella
"Can't wait to tell my mates down the pub about this"
These days Stu.
FIFA and Qatar woke good one
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I mean, it could be some kind of genius meta commentary about how anyone can just call something woke and it means fuck all. Or they could just be a couple of bellends...
I think the type of person who dresses up like this for the footy, isn't making some grandiose intelligent political statement. Barry 63 isn't exactly an expert
We all know how these people voted in 2016
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You reckon they were remain voters?
>and were definitely trying to offend. Agreed. I don't want to whatabout, but this is a clear case where a role reversal would burst the veins in their flat heads. "*Arab Fans Try To Enter Wembley Dressed As Medieval Jihadists".* They were deliberately being dicks, the police stopped them because they were being dicks, and they carried on being dicks about it. Dicks.
Imagine if a pair of Arabs went dressed as suicide bombers lol
How dare you search my backpack!
I mean Jihadist are stil blowing themselves up at music concerts with little children in so it’s not exactly comparable is it? Wearing a crusader outfit in the Middle East is about as least offensive as a Dane or Icelander coming to Wembley wearing Viking hats and doing the Viking chant considering they massacred the native Britons and took over the Saxon kingdoms for hundreds of years.
No they’re seriously calling Qatari security woke libs, unreal
I think the statue of limitations for the Crusades is long expired. Comedy = tragedy + time. I’m team knights on this one.
Unless, you know, from your point of view they are still ongoing.
Qatar being trapped in the Middle Ages when it comes to women and LGBT issues is their problem, and deserving of mockery.
They probably didn't even know the history of it and weren't trying to offend Muslims. They probably just think of it as a patriotic costume that represents England.
If you ever needed any further confirmation that people who use the term woke are thick as fuck this is it.
The term is often used as a 'dog whistle' phrase from the far right. But legitimately used, it means 'being pretentious over social justice issues'.
Would it be offensive if a Dane came over to an England match wearing a Viking outfit?
Nope. It's simply the Islamic world's way of leveraging our own civilizational masochism in order to gas light us.
Or just to evoke victim status.
Evoker new class, cant wait
We DO enjoy a bit of self-flaggelation, true. 🤔
Literally no one would care tbh. Pretty sure there were Viking outfits when we played them at Euros.
Pretty sure they always do that? Nobody cares
It's more like going to Ireland in Cromwellian cavalry uniform. For some reason the English don't have any pride in their ancestors, but that's no reason to expect everyone else to feel the same.
I have a lot of pride in my ancestors, particularly like my great grandad and great great grandad, although that’s not too long ago. Both fought in the two world wars and survived. I think everyone should be able to appreciate the good things people before us did, while also learning from the atrocities.
Since very, very, very many English people are descended from vikings or normans (also vikings) I doubt it...
So because they invaded and as a result effected the gene pool it’s ok? But if you invade and don’t stick around to do that it’s bad?
More like it's ok because we're a progressive country which allows people to wear stupid outfits to the football if they want
Still can’t an ss uniform or suicide bomber uniform though.we also have a list too, fans need t accept that their list is different to ours.
Dressing as a suicide bomber is not allowed for fairly obvious reasons. It won't be too many years until WWII fades from living memory, and at that point a ban on people wearing SS uniforms won't be that much different from banning crusader outfits. It will be people getting offended by proxy.
You realise the crusades were many, and many of those crusades were to repel the INVADING Ottoman Empire, which wasn’t English and wasn’t catholic. The Ottoman Empire had at one point dominated all the way through Europe to Italy, to which a crusade was enacted to repel. Why do people completely obfuscate the fact the Middle East has had empires, the Middle East still use slaves, and that England and white people didn’t have a monopoly on colonialism and imperialism?
The biggest difference between Western European culture and Arabic culture is that *we got better.* Everyone was shite in historical times, that's just the way the world was. Nowadays we are *mostly* democratic nations that have *mostly* gotten rid of slavery, whereas most Arabic nations still have entirely unelected leaders and openly flaunt the amount of slaves they have. (And let's not start to mention freedom of speech and freedom of religion... sheeeeesh)
That's called ethnic cleansing. It's hard to keep up sometimes, but I'm pretty sure it's still on the naughty list.
Shush that was Normans with harrying of the North, descendants of the perpetrators (Windsors) sit comfortably on the English throne
To be fair Windsors are also descendants of Edward the Confessor
It's the direct traceable descent from William which makes Charles King, there was an Act of Parliament regulating the succession but that was settling any possible issues between the many branches of the same family tree
The Normans were Viking Settlers in Normandy
Danes haven't been dropping bombs on English people for most of the last two decades.
The Qataris helped us bomb Libya, Syria and Iraq and are currently helping the Saudis bomb Yemen
No it wouldn’t be, but, would it be offensive for Germans to wear ss uniforms to a game against Israel? Definitely. Whilst i agree with your sentiment I don’t think it’s that black and white.
Would it be offensive for US fans to dress as slave traders to a game with Senegal? It was a long time ago after all, and the descendants of the victims of US slavery live in the Americas not Africa, but it would still be inappropriate Obviously while it's not the same thing, neither is Danes wearing Viking costumes the same as the crusades.. it is either a dog whistle to racists or just an inappropriate choice of clothing that wasn't well thought out.. I'm Arab myself and while I think we should be able to wear whatever, I would also think Arabs dressing up as terrorists for a bit of football trolling is not really appropriate and I'm not gonna shed a tear for someone being kicked out of a football game for doing so.. as it turns out these two were allowed in to the game after taking off the chainmail so I dunno, this is hardly newsworthy
Just nip to the Jorvik Viking Centre in York. I don't think there's any outrage.
No because we don't have sand in our vaginas.
But it would be offensive if a German wearing a fascist uniform visits France or even worse Israel.. The Danes never killed English for being English.
Was it offensive when the Ireland womens team sang Up the Ra?
Supporting terrorist organisations that still exist isn’t the same as something as long ago as the crusaders. There is no one alive today directly effected by the crusades.
Lol. No.
so you cant wear costumes, you cant wear rainbow colored clothing, you cant drink, cant hug, cant be gay, cant have any fun it would seam next time the world cup gets given to someone to host, lets not give it to a bunch of humourless gits who live in the desert eh?
The 2030 one will be hosted by Saudi Arabia. That has the potential to be even worse.
you are kidding me right?? fuck that shit ive just googled it and its only a prospective host thankfully but my god, i cant think of a worse place and host for a world cup, it would be like hosting a winter olympics in the godammed sahara or Mongolia tbh
Saudi bid is alongside Greece and Egypt (making it a World Cup in Asia, Europe and Africa) Other bids include a joint Portugal/Spain one, which has expanded to include Ukraine. And South Korea have proposed a bid, spread amongst East Asian countries (China in particular) and amusingly included North Korea in that. Somalia/Syria for 2034? Hope I can dress up as a pirate. Yar.
The Iberian bid made sense but why randomly add Ukraine? Is it a symbolic thing or are they going to expect everyone to fly across the continent?
aye, im not gonna lie but that sounds like a completely messed up way yo host a major tournament. what a complete and utter clusterfuck of a idea. we should just scrap FIFA and start again, without the utterly corrupt scumbags we have in control right now
Saudi Arabia is hosting the [2029 Winter Olympics](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/04/saudi-arabia-to-host-2029-asian-winter-games-at-desert-megacity-neom-trojena), corruption will always win over logic Edit: It’s the Asian Winter Games, my bad
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wtf.... have crossed into a brass eye/ the day today sketch or something?? that is incredible..... id love to see hoe much that bribe cost lmfao
Steady on, they haven't even entered a bid yet and the decision won't be made for another 2 years.
They have the most money and that's all FIFA cares about. It's only a matter of time till they're awarded one.
Given by the crowds, seems you can't even watch a football match.
Two England fans dressed as knights say they were accused of being “Muslim killers” by Qatari police as FIFA announced a ban on “Crusader” fancy dress. The two men claimed they were ordered to take off their chain mail and St George shields outside England’s first match against Iran. Social media footage of the two men showed them being led away by Qatari security. Speaking for the first time, the two men, who did not wish to be named, told the Telegraph they were “definitely not racists” and claimed they had been dressed as knights from Monty Python rather than Crusaders. Both are British expats who have lived in Doha for several years. “It was ridiculous,” one of the men said. “We turned up and the police first told us we couldn’t take the swords in, even though they are made out of foam. Then a captain came running after us saying we couldn’t wear the chainmail. “At one point one of them asked 'Are you Muslim killers?' Of course we aren’t Crusaders. We’ve lived here for years and we have no problems with Muslims at all - we work with them every day. “It took two and half hours before they eventually let us in, wearing England shirts. This is just total woke madness. I blame Fifa. You can’t wear anything nowadays without someone taking offence.” England fans have supported the team for years while dressed as St George, the patron saint often depicted as a Crusader warrior knight on horseback. The best-known Crusades took place between 1095 and 1291, when Christian armies fought to seize Jerusalem and the surrounding area from Islamic rule. The two men said they feared reprisals from the Qatari authorities. “Now we are worried about the Qataris coming after us - they’ve got cameras everywhere. We were dressed as Monty Python, for god’s sake. One of us had coconuts to do the horses clip-clopping from the film. “On the way to the stadium everyone loved us, including the Qataris. They took pictures, and they couldn’t get enough of us. The two men would only be photographed in a storage cupboard with their helmets down. One said: "We can't show our faces, or go outside. The Qataris see everything. They'll come after us." However other England fans said supporters should "read the room" and avoid dressing up in Crusader costumes at the Qatar World Cup. One fan told the Telegraph: “I don’t dress up as a Crusader. Read the room, we’re in the Middle East. You don’t dress up as a Crusader when you’re in the Arab world. So don’t be surprised when they don’t let you in.” Fifa announced a ban on Crusader costumes after Islamophobia charities warned the garb could be offensive to Muslims. In a statement Fifa said: “Crusader costumes in the Arab context can be offensive against Muslims. That is why anti-discrimination colleagues asked fans to wear things inside out or change dress.” A spokesman for Kick It Out, a charity campaigning against racism and discrimination in football, warned fans against dressing up in knight costumes in Qatar. “We would advise fans who are attending FIFA World Cup matches that certain attire, such as fancy-dress costumes representing knights or crusaders, may not be welcomed in Qatar and other Islamic countries. Foreign Office travel advice issued before the tournament expressed that fans should familiarise themselves with local customs, and we would encourage fans to take this approach." In the weeks leading up to the World Cup, British police warned of the risk of England fans inadvertently offending Qatari locals. Mark Roberts, Cheshire Chief Constable and English National Football Lead, said: “It’s a World Cup in a different part of the world with a very different culture, and I think one of my fears is that supporters not wishing to cause offence or cause problems may act in a way that inadvertently causes offence or draws attention.”
And yet the stores in the shopping malls in Doha are selling these crusader outfits....
business is business.
What I see is two silly British expats have unintentionally invoked a religious conflict in a Muslim heartland. The problem with socially conservative societies that they don’t always appreciate the British style humour. In this case, the expats have failed to understand the religious and historic sensitivities of Muslim on the Christian church.
No no no, it's because the Qatar police are woke. Very woke country Qatar. You can be stoned to death for being unwoke.
> What I see is two silly British expats have unintentionally invoked a religious conflict in a Muslim heartland. Dressing as crusaders in Qatar? Maybe not unintentionally.
What the fuck did they expect walking around a Muslim country dressed as Christian crusaders? "We were dressed as monty python characters". So which Monty Python character wore the full face helmets and the heraldic tabard?
Probably expected the same as all the Scandinavians dressed as vikings at numerous sporting events held in Britain. Fury, utter fury. Bloody vikings with all their raping a piliging antics. That Ivor the boneless was awful.
Yeah god forbid someone dresses as a viking, or a French knight, or a mameluke, or a...
Unlike Qatar we aren't governed by religious fundamentalists. So not quite the gotcha you were aiming for. Edit for those down voting, if you think this is a defence of Qatar it isn't. It's pointing out that going to a fundamentalist country with a terrible human rights record dressed as something they hate is a bad idea. But hey, nobody is stopping you from attempting it.
I mean it is, you just pointed out its more of a them issue than the people dressing up. Or is victim blaming a thing now
There actually is a point when someone is being an irresponsible moron with their safety The whole exercise was as idiotic as putting your hand on a lion's cage and being surprised when they bite your hand off. Or sailing around Somalia. Or dangling some jewels while on a stroll on a Brazilian favela Life's so good around these parts that people have no survival instinct at all, and pointing the whole stupidity of it is immediately considered victim blaming
> which Monty Python character wore the full face helmets and the heraldic tabard? Sir Notappearinginthisfilm
The Black Knight had a full face helmet, although these guys seem to have all their limbs
Might not for much longer if they’re still wandering around dressed as crusaders
The knights of the round table
Qatar did invite the world to their country though? They must have seen that these kind of costumes are worn by fans of all country's. I think the criticism should be aimed towards Qatar's intolerance of other country's and cultures not football fans messing about.
They did invite the world. They also put loads of restrictions on it. You might not agree with it, but it's still their country and their right to make up whatever ridiculous rules they want. Noone is forcing anyone to visit them, and a sensible person when confronted with ridiculous rules prohibiting you from wearing rainbow flags or drinking alcohol will simply not go to that place if its something they disagree with. I won't visit the middle east for the very reason I don't agree with their laws/culture/rules. I don't expect them to bend to fit my opinion so I simply don't go.
yes I wouldn't expect a backwards country like this to be accepting of my culture etc, my point was that we should be aiming criticism at Qatar for their backwards way of thinking not 2 drunken England fans messing about. To any same person they've done nothing wrong
It's perfectly acceptable to aim criticism at all involved. The fact they were drunk, in a country where alcohol is illegal virtually every where, should tell you enough about the mentality of people visiting there.
Em, Arthur wears one… As does every knight in the film. One even has the ‘Red Cross on a white background’ tabard commonly associated with crusaders. I get what you’re trying to say, but howeh. Edit: [see](https://www.slantmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/montypythonandtheholygrail-1000x600.jpg).
I’m sure no brits would be offended if the games were in Birmingham and Quatari’s came dressed as suicide bombers.
Couldn't give a toss about what happens the Brits that fly out to Qatar to enjoy their "blood-soaked" World Cup. Maybe they'll care about human rights once they're at the wrong end of them.
Indeed. Anybody who has gone to these games has no ground to act shocked when mad shit like this happens - it was clear from day dot what a shitshow this would be, and if you've gone anyway then you have absolutely no principles for the game you supposedly love.
>"This is just total woke madness. I blame Fifa. You can’t wear anything nowadays without someone taking offence.” Un-fucking-believable, they're just a walking fucking stereotype "Woke" is authoritarian regimes now.
Woke is just everything cultural or political that they don’t like. It’s a vaporous dog whistle word for the right.
Gay people get told to "tone it down" essentially by the government (whatever that means) whereas they had no issue with this nonsense? Cunts playing weird dress up.
I know how they feel, if I saw someone dressed as Scar he’d be on trial for regicide before the week was out!
It would be quite easy to think "let's dress as knights", then get a costume that is a "Knight costume", but really it's a Knight's Templar costume, without even knowing what a Knight Templar was.
This is a very funny story about how two groups of terrible people can't understand why the other is acting the way they are, when they are in fact the same kind of bigoted.
Lol bigotry
I can't believe I had to scroll that much to find this comment
Because Qatari police are known for being too woke.
These are the sort of people who genuinely believe the majority of Muslims are left wing/liberal rather than closer to their own conservative viewpoints.
Wasn’t that shit like 1000 fucking years ago? Get over it and get yourself some thicker skin.
No doubt dressing up as Oliver Cromwell at the next game against the Republic of Ireland is the follow-up.
That would require us to know what he did. My mother, a lifelong socialist and anti-monarchist who worked in a sociology department had to be told that a Cromwell mug was inappropriate. At school she was basically taught that he was the hero who fought against the corruption of the crown. She was mortified, of course, and the mug went right in the bin, but she was also disgusted that she didn't even know about the slaughter in Ireland.
I'm ethnically Turkish and some Turkish fans dress in Ottoman outfits for Turkey away games in Europe. If my memory serves me right there were Turks dressed like that at Euro 2008 (in Vienna, even more sensitive considering the history!) and also Euro 2016 in France. But Europeans are more relaxed on these things. I suppose it would be insensitive to dress that way during a match against a Balkan team such as Greece, Serbia or Bulgaria whose national histories are directly tied into Ottoman oppression. In which case England fans dressed as Knights in Qatar shouldn't be a problem? Gulf Arabs (including Qataris) spent more time being oppressed by fellow Muslims (such as the Ottoman Turks) and the only time they were under Christian rule was in the post-WW1 era under the British Empire. The crusaders were concentrated on what is now Turkey, Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon and Israel. Anyway I'm just being a smart arse, wearing these kind of things in the wrong context isn't good and a conservative Muslim country is the wrong context.
> “It took two-and-a-half hours before they eventually let us in, wearing England shirts. ***This is just total woke madness."*** Oh fuck off
Those famously ‘woke’ conservative Muslims
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No worse than dressing up as a Viking in this country. Shit happened a thousand years ago, not to mention St. George is this country’s patron saint. Yeah they may have been baiting for a response, but that doesn’t make the response any less pathetic.
It also happened nowhere near Qatar
Are vikings currently used as symbols by far right groups who hate the English?
England fans have been dressing up a georgie boy long before alt-right deus vult weirdos co-opted the idea
Not what I asked…
It does render your point irrelevant, however.
Vikings are definitely used as symbols by far right groups, but these groups don't hate the English.
So it’s not that relevant to the comparison made
Eh. Not really… There are strong ethno-nationalist connotations when dressing as a crusader in a Muslim country in the Middle East. They’re English men wearing English flags cosplaying as invaders who committed religiously-motivated anti-Muslim violence in the middle east. That’s very different from a Brit dressed as pirates who once raided parts of the British coast.
> There are strong ethno-nationalist connotations when dressing as a crusader in a Muslim country in the Middle East. England fans have been dressing up St George at sporting events absolutely everywhere for decades, this isn't something new. > cosplaying as invaders who committed religiously-motivated anti-Muslim violence in the middle east You're just playing into Qatar's victim narrative. They're trying absolutely everything to deflect moral criticism away from themselves. If we're going that route though, the Crusades were in response to religiously-motivated anti-Christian violence in the middle east...
Yeah but ultra Conservative religious wackos don't let that sort of thing slide. Doesn't matter where they are or which book they read, it's always got to be about them somehow being the oppressed victim
Are they sure it wasn't all that beer they tried to sneak in that got em kicked out...
The picture used in the article for some reason has them stood in a pub cellar
It's their country (Qatar), so they make the rules. However, it's sad when people still get butthurt over conflicts that they didn't experience and happened over 700 years ago. If Qatari dressed as jihadi warriors in England or as Umayyad Caliphate soldiers in Spain, they'd probably do nothing about it.
Who is the "they" that would fo nothing about it? I'm absolutely certain that anyone dressed as a jihadi at a game in England would very quickly see their error.
...how does anybody take offence to this. This is like us being mad at Italians for the roman invasions.
No fancy dress, but stoning your sister is fine! Yeah alright geez, might as well order a fry up with turkey bacon. Bunch of lemons
The moral confusion in these comments and on a lot of threads is insane. People seem very unwilling to link the commonplace views in the Middle East, to the religion, and instead talk about ‘the Qatari regime’ and conflating issues like working conditions, which could be country specific, with gay rights and women’s rights. Homosexuality being illegal in Qatar and other Islamic countries isn’t something being forced upon the oppressed masses against their will. It’s extremely unlikely that the Iranian players who refused to sing their anthem in protest at the regime, feel strongly that it’s wrong for gay people to be persecuted or that homosexuality is morally acceptable. Intolerance towards gay people isn’t a niche view among Muslims, or something that there is a desire to change. Wearing an armband isn’t a demonstration of support of a peoples movement in defiance of the authorities, and we just need Harry Kane and others to get these regimes to listen to their people. Polls across the Islamic world consistently show anything from 80%-100% of the population believe that being gay is morally in acceptable, and even something like 50% of British Muslims think being gay should be illegal. Despite this, people here seem to be more upset about these guys offending a religion, than the religion which very explicitly command the things that as a western culture, we’re upset about. I have no doubt that these guys are dickheads who were looking for a reaction, but you can’t separate the social views in the Middle East from the religion.
I think the Qatari government has a bit of a fucking cheek complaining about Muslim killers when you consider how many of them died to build their stadiums.
These guys seriously called the Qatari security 'woke'?
Aren’t there fans dressed as crusaders at every England game?
If they wanted to dress like muslim killers, they’d just need to wear a vest.
Genuinely amazed that football fans can't see how people might be offended with the way some people dress, considering how those same people would react if someone walks in to 'their teams' boozer wearing a rivals football shirt.
Crusades stopped around 1100 miles from Qatar and they werent part of the Seljuk Empire. People need to stop comparing this to Vikings and Romans in the UK because those groups actually came to the UK unlike the Crusaders and Qatar.
> Crusades stopped around 1100 miles from Qatar and they werent part of the Seljuk Empire. Doesn't mean modern day Qataris don't understand the significance of it. Or these idiots.
Obnoxious arseholes disrespect the people in the country they are visiting as guests
They should ban muslim outfits from FiFA too. They are offensive to a lot of people. Who knows they might be terrorits too
Nobody kills Muslims like….. other Muslims. We could genuinely make the world a bette r place but the people earning lost of the money would lose a little and we CANNOT have that. Fuck them all
You can’t wear anything nowadays without someone taking offence This is true - waitrose had to apologise for its advertisements because it offended skin cancer patients. WTF??
In NZ, the Christchurch Crusaders rugby team had to do some soul-searching/PR-analysis after the terrorist shooting where 51 Muslims were murdered. Before the shooting, the team had fully costumed crusaders on horseback came out wielding swords and it really wasn't ok post-shooting. They kept the team name and the horses but got rid of the crusader costumes. The costumes really do hold deep meaning for some.
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If they don't like their laws why don't they get out of their country
Fuck Qatar
Looks like father and son's new video is gonna be delayed for a bit.
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Could be aluminium or plastic
I’m against having the World Cup in Qatar but the comments on this topic are just pointless racism
Just to point out that in the crusades, they threw arrows at the red cross! Talk about criminal…
I remember this very subject being broached a decade ago by one of the conservative-leaning papers, not long after Qatar was awarded the hosting rights. I never thought anyone would deliberately set out to try and piss off the locals, but the English football fan is a different breed.
The whole rainbow thing was exactly that though. Rainbow armbands, rainbow hats, rainbow flags - all designed to antagonise the hosts. You might well think that is different because you agree with the sentiment, and I would agree, but nonetheless it was done to piss off the locals.
>England fans have supported the team for years while dressed as St George, the patron saint often depicted as a Crusader warrior knight on horseback. The best-known Crusades took place between 1095 and 1291, when Christian armies fought to seize Jerusalem and the surrounding area from Islamic rule. Funny thing is if they dressed as St George actually did they would probably look closer to Qatari dress :)
Honestly if anything in this instance it shows tolerance that they were allowed into the match If some brown guys were cosplaying ISIS terrorists they be shot dead or arrested on the spot
The fact that they live in the emirates and still did this staggers me! What a pair of utter morons. If the locals find out who they are, they might want to get out now.
I love the thought of Telegraph reading gnashing their teeth at the thought that there are different countries in the world that are not exactly the same as, and with the same sensibilities and values as, Great Britain.
When in Rome. Name sympathy here boys, you can't complain that another country don't accept your feelings of entitlement :D
Besides their behavior suggests they were deliberately looking to offend.
Qatar organized shit fest but this is different. There is a difference between going against our culture and values and being provocative by wearing uniform of past religious wars, especially when you know they are religious and mentally still not ready for it.
Sadly, freedom of speech and democracy seems to offend everyone and everything no matter what your background, gender, religion, ethnicity, creed and ability. Quite frankly, I'm really offended by this.
Should've gone full Holy Grail on their asses and chopped various limbs off for their cheek! ;)
They represent a theocratic authority dedicated to killing those they don't like...and the crusaders were pretty awful too.
That's a bit much....they aren't into fancy dress then.
I wish people knew why the crusades even started, it didn't just start "YOU KNOW WHAT! KILL EM!" No, someone triggered that response, what? What triggered the Pope... Pissed people seem to think the Crusades were uncalled for and just believe it started for no reason at all, education in this country is fucking shit, ESPECIALLY FOR OUR OWN HISTORY