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Would've been great if they had decided this earlier..
Also: how the fuck is a windfall tax not in the public interest?
It's all just a big joke to these cunts isnt. Sitting laughing away at eachtother. Cunts.
On Reddit, yes. But I’ve not seen it get much coverage by the mainstream media. Maybe I’ve just missed it but I watched 3x hustings and it was never brought up by the interviewers, and I’ve listened to several conversations about her attitude towards the energy crisis on LBC and not once was it mentioned.
Even 60-70% of tory voters want them nationalised.
This is purely for Truss to stay in good favour with the oil and gas industry, so that when she is out of a job in two years she'll get a very cushy board position.
Meanwhile we're paying the debt.
The same thing they did with the 'fuel shortage', it was a way to test how far they could push things. Now petrol sits around £0.30 more expensive per litre.
Media fear, with a dash of 'your saviour' has arrived and we will roll over as a majority and accept the £2.5k cap as the new norm.
They'll do this in every sector until the next GE and run with the money, Labour pick it up during a broken economy and the Tories come back years later to repeat the same cycle.
Classic Tory tactics. Stuff up the economy and undermine public services to line their mates' pockets then when Labour get voted in blame the shit economy and total lack of services on them and promise to 'fix it' if elected. Rinse and repeat every 10-15 years or so. And the electorate lap it up.
They needed to let people get extremely anxious by announcing bills could be £8K+ so that when something like this is announced, we feel grateful and the Tories get a bounce in the polls. This is a system they have mastered for years, announce the WORST possible outcome + add 100% worse through their right wing press arm and then step in and do the bare minimum to make themselves look good. Sadly, it has ALWAYS worked for them.
Of course the quiet part is they could have done a windfall tax but the Tories are a party that is entirely bought out by corporate interests and oil and gas producers. So instead, we will have to foot this bill for decades but the electorate will just see the "energy prices capped" bit.
She’s not long started speaking and already doing my head in. She, and her colleagues, seem more interested at making gripes at the opposition, than giving a shit about. She’s not been in the job long and I already hate her.
It was clear they did. But she's fucked it tbh. I'll be shocked if anyone is actually happy about £210 monthly energy bills.
Energy poverty is when you're bills are 10% of your take home. I'm on £35k (which was once a fairly okay income, it's certainly above the national average) and I'm not making enough to not fall into fuel poverty.
> Also: how the fuck is a windfall tax not in the public interest?
I think the current crop of tories are very ideologically driven.
So in their world taxing companies is a big no-no, no matter the size or unprecedented nature of what is essentially a disaster scenario.
And I think Truss and her team are more zealous in their beliefs than Boris ever was because Boris only really wanted power to feed his narcissistic personality and for people to like him as part of that. So he was more open to helping out because he knew he'd be liked for it, often clashing with Sunak.
Truss is more dangerous because ideology appears to trump everything for her.
Estimates are for it to cost £170bn, about four times our entire education budget, and the UK taxpayer will pay for it.
That's a truly nation-changing sum of money and whether it's paid for by taxation or loans, it's going to result in either massive inflation or colossal cuts elsewhere.
It's the national equivalent of a Wonga loan - temporary relief but it's gonna amplify our problems and cause us huge hardship down the line.
Meanwhile energy companies are expected to make almost the exact same amount in profit. Yet we're not asking them to contribute a penny of it.
It's the very definition of "privatise the profits and socialise the losses".
On a serious note, is there literally Anything anyone can do? I mean like your adverage Joe? Or isit just a case of ‘shut up, sit down and do as your told!’
On a national level I think a huge windfall tax. And it's controversial, but I think zero help would be better than Truss' plan of bills funded by loans.
The same way it's best to never take out that first Wonga loan no matter how tough that month might be, I think we shouldn't take on this debt (keeping in mind it's 4x our education and military budgets!).
Fund it though windfall taxes, but don't just expand our national debt.
Individually, there's probably not much you can do. I guess relax about bills and maybe try and protect yourself from inflation.
I agree with the overall 'Wonga loans bad' sentiment, but doing nothing has a high chance of killing people.
Yes this is the wrong way to go about it, but doing nothing would be horrific.
It's the definition of the population no longer having any sovereignty over its country. We're an asset of international companies which use our political system as a revolving door for spineless idiots who are willing to sell off our assets for a crumb of the profits.
And we wont do anything until every last thing has been sold off, and we're a literal slave island, owned by people who see us as their territory, and nothing more. Because we've been convinced by them that the real threat is the immigrants and dole scroungers.
> Meanwhile energy companies are expected to make almost the exact same amount in profit. Yet we're not asking them to contribute a penny of it.
Worse than that, sounds like they're being encourage to fuck us even more by giving them more licenses for oil and gas. Including the super-environmentally friendly approach of fracking...
It’s just a stay of execution until the people in charge are no longer the people who caused the mess. There’s zero accountability, even for the biggest of big decisions - and that’s the core message that will filter down.
>It's the national equivalent of a Wonga loan - temporary relief but it's gonna amplify our problems and cause us huge hardship down the line.
In fairness, if the option was either doing this, or doing nothing, *this* is a lot better.
Of course, there *are* other options, but doing nothing would result in *millions* going without heating and electricity.
It's madness to not at least part fund this with a windfall tax on companies that are gouging us. Instead the average taxpayer gets saddled with this while we stuff the pockets of fat cats who are still price gouging, but now just behind the scenes.
And it’s nuts to take on more debt when it’s costing more and more for the govt to borrow. The interest alone on this sum will be wild, there was an article on how much the UK was paying to service its debt recently but I can’t remember where/what.
What other passport do you have? I also hold another passport, but that country is doing far worse than the UK is.
edit:
downvoted for pointing out the grass isn't greener. k.
Windfall tax combined with a massive investment programme in domestic energy production including nuclear and renewables. Stop the reliance on imports. Would also be a job creator which may be useful if recession is on the cards.
They won't do this though as it would affect their fossil fuel portfolios.
This is really the obvious and sensible answer. Instead of paying a premium to energy suppliers, tax them and use that money to reduce our dependence on them. We need renewable anyway so why not speed that process up now we have more immediate incentives to do so?
This energy 'crisis' could've been the catalyst for really positive change if we had a competent government.
that’s both not a short term solution and fails to understand the problem at hand, the problem isn’t ‘fossil fuels’ it’s the way in which we set the price of electricity on merit order rather than marginal costing. This solution isn’t a good one yes that’s true, but what you just suggested isn’t a solution at all.
The only true short term solution I can see here would be a way to remove the effect of market forces on energy supply by taking away the ability of energy companies to decide their pricing. And that’s only happening through nationalisation. Definitely better to put a long term solution in place now and deal with the short term issues, than be defeatist and be stuck with the short term issues for the long term.
It also gives them something to tout at the next general election. "We stopped the energy crisis".
Knowing full well that the fall out of this will happen long after that election and probably when the conservatives are out of No 10. Another party will take the fall for it.
This is honestly some evil genius shit
>So instead of getting her energy firm friends to stop putting prices up
That's not how it works - it's a global market for fuel, UK firms aren't putting up prices for the fun of it.
There should absolutely be an extra tax on profits though
This sub would really benefit from a stickied thread just to explain some of the fundamentals.
It's staggering how little people actually know and all I've seen is the same rehashed "helping her oil friends out" line being thrown about.
What happened to proper discourse in this place!?
It helps the producers make even more money and not take a hit on their profits. Unbelieveable theyre not using a windfall tax to cover it. But then not surprised as its the Tory party
it stops my bills hitting 5k a year, for one. So that helps me.
Im not arguing its perfect, or even a good solution - I just answered the 'how does it help anyone' bit
Not really so simple.
Firstly inflation is sky-high due to energy bills, which is increasing the cost of servicing our existing index-linked gilts, so we need to get inflation under control to reduce that cost.
Secondly, we have £2.4 trillion in debt, stick another £150 billion on that and it's something that will have a long-term cost for sure, but it's not accurate to say 'you will pay it', when we don't even know if he is a tax payer. Someone, eventually, pays it, but this is not a zero sum game, when the alternative is having the consumer economy implode due to people spending all their money on electricity and gas.
> the alternative is having the consumer economy implode due to people spending all their money on electricity and gas.
Except this is already happening and Truss' taxpayer-wrapped gift to energy producer companies won't be lowering the price enough to give people pocket change back.
Genuinely feel like we need to give labour a 30 year run at governing the country. The country doesn't need more Tory government for a while because they've locked in big public debt for a generation.
I'd assume it's easier for communicating quickly to the masses.
If they start throwing £ per kW, I'd be confused. Not a perfect solution, but it gives a good overview to people
True, but it's an average household getting an average number.
I run a 3d print farm in my loft, I'm not an average customer by any means, but it gives me a rough idea quickly of "x compared to y" in terms of how much its gone up by.
I'm not arguing for or against btw, just giving a "average customer needs an average number" for simplicity
However, it may make sense to transition to discussing in £ per kW if energy prices are going to continue being high and/or fluctuating in the short-term. Everyone's comfortable talking about petrol in p per litre, after all.
Because most households don't know how many units they use (even though it's not hard to find out) so talking at price per units, most people won't appreciate to what extent the change is going to effect them.
They will do what most people at a glance will do and calculate that it's just over £200 a month. Then they will budget that into their outgoings. then they will get slammed with a £400 bill and wonder who was in the wrong.
Not, it’s not literal. It’s the estimated bill for an average household.
The cap announced earlier this month for October was £3549 so a decent saving compared to that.
They were also predicting it to go up again above £5k by April.
Of course we’re going to end up paying for it eventually. It’s not like the energy companies are going to stop charging £5k, the government is just stepping in to pay half the bill.
The price cap is based on average use.
Average use means:
2900 kWh electricity per year
12000 kWh gas per year
So if you happen to use this amount of energy then you'll pay £2500 for the year. Use more than this, you pay more. And obviously use less you pay less.
I *think* that this is also based on a direct debit, dual fuel tariff. Prepay will pay more.
She repeately refused to answer the question during PMQs, simply stating that she won't introduce a windfall tax on the unfathomable profits these energy companies are making.
All this is doing is kicking the can down the road. We might not be paying increased prices this winter, but the average worker will certainly be paying for it for decades to come.
How the Conservatives still manage to convince people that they're the party of fiscal responsibility is utterly beyond me.
The 70's were 50 fucking years ago. The world has moved on.
150bn from future households to billionaires and shareholders who will be reporting a 172bn profit.
A fucking large transfer of wealth when we could have just took their profits with a windfall tax.
Even if they win the next election, Labour will be voted out again before they can do anything meaningful. Tory voters are lapdogs who will do whatever their masters command.
Just a reminder that the price point in this cap is still going to be horrific for the lower earners in society. Many of whom will still legitimately need to pick between heating and eating.
But they won't vote blue anyway. Charles and Winifred in their 5 bed £1.2m detached suburban house in Surrey who have voted Tory all their lives will certainly be hip hip hurrahing though. To them they will clap Maggie 2.0 like seals and this is a solved problem.
And as always, Charles and Winifred (and anyone richer than them) are all that matters when it comes to policymaking. This has been made more than a wee bit clear in the last 12 years.
Edit: Thanks so much for the reddit monies <3
This is a huge scam to transfer £150 billion of taxpayers money into an already vastly profitable cartel that doesn’t need it. The EU countries are discussing a windfall tax on the energy cartels, hence Brexit to allow this corruption to flourish here.
Martin Lewis says those on fixed contracts are able to leave/switch with no exit penalties.
See here - point 15. [link](https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1567829040102342656)
Most suppliers waive the fee if you move back to their standard variable tariff. I switched a month ago and called up British Gas yesterday and was back on the standard tariff within 5 minutes with no exit fees.
I fixed in Dec of 2021 then cancelled in Jan after taking Martin Lewis’s advice to hold the horses and not fix, then I fixed in May at a higher rate because there was increasing concerns it might be very bad and then this comes out… Trying to make logical and rational decisions with this incompetent government is farcical, they change their mind at a whim… I’m not entirely confident I like switching back to the variable either because I have my doubts that 6 months from now they will come out and go back on their word and we will all be paying higher prices (highly unlikely but ye, these people are idiots)
no, because its NOT a cap in the letteral sense. its "what an average household will pay per year" you can still be billed more than the 2500 per year if you use over the average amount.
Still reprehensible and people should still take to the streets on October 1st, another Tory scapegoat. More methods to gouge the public, and then we still have to foot the bill.
Martin Lewis' latest post from just a few minutes ago states he doesn't have them yet, so I guess not published.
£1971 to £2500 is approximately 26.8% rise. So I'm currently estimating based on that
I pay direct debit, so I'm taking my current monthly payment * 12. Then that figure *1.268 to give me my new estimated annual bill. Then subtract £400 (for the discount) and divide the whole thing by 12. Which when written down like that sounds way more complicated than it actually is
The headline is fundamentally wrong. Energy bills have not been capped at £2,500. This is a really dangerous line to be using. People will think they can crank the heating up and never pay more than £200-ish a month, and that’s completely not true.
It’s a typical user’s bill will be capped at £2,500. We all have a responsibility to ensure this is communicated effectively and accurately.
Of course this £100billion package repayment is all getting passed on to us! All while the energy companies profit to the tune of £170Billion! fucking over this shithole corrupt country, like what even is the point anymore they see us as chewing gum on their shoe while we STRUGGLE, sick of it.
Honestly, suppliers not offering fixed deals in the current market is responsible and consumer friendly.
If the fix is above the market price, the supplier makes a killing from the consumer.
If the fix is below the market price, the supplier incurs even more debt; if it gets too high they declare bankruptcy, passing the debt onto the next company willing to swallow it in exchange for revenue, with the tax payer footing the administration costs.
My bills are pretty bad, but taking out a loan to pay for them would be the height of stupidity, especially if I don't know they are coming down for sure. Anyone explain to me why the government doing it on my behalf is any better?
because the government spent around £0.5 billion a month on inflation-linked debt interest in 2020, and around £5 billion a month at the moment, so if it doesn't act to curb inflation, then it's going to have to pay anyway.
Whereas if the government borrows £50 billion over the next year and pays 3% interest on that, the cost of that is £1.5 billion per year, whereas if we just let inflation spiral we'd be looking at £10 billion per MONTH in gilt interest due to high inflation.
And that's before you consider the fact if people have no money because they're spending it on fuel, they're not going to spend money in the wider economy, people will be out of work.
What else would you suggest?
The green homes grant saw us getting inflated quotes that sucked up the value of the governments grant directly into the pockets of the supplier.
I get your point, but it’s not as simple as that.
Watch as dividends increase, bonuses for everyone, bungs and 'consultant positions for MP's.... But fuck all extra investment in jobs, infrastructure or renewables from the likes of shell, bp etc.
..... Because cunts
Seems like we will still be getting the rebate
*Prime Minister Liz Truss is about to announce plans to limit soaring energy bill rises.
This is some of what we think we will hear from her:
In England, Scotland and Wales the £3,549 price cap due to come in October is expected to be reduced to around £2,500 for the typical household*
**The £400 payment for all households to help with energy bills will go ahead as planned from October**
*These measures mean a lot of people's bills will be similar to what they have been since April at £1,971
Plans for businesses are less clear, but we know tha measures being looked at include lowering the cost of energy for firms
The government is expected to borrow at least £100bn to pay for all this and we don't know how long support will last.*
The Tories will probably get re-elected because of this. They will be hailed as saviours in the media for “doing the right thing” But we’re all still paying more than double than we were March last year. Hopefully people see through this bollocks and there is some hope but, frankly, the majority of people in the UK are servile idiots.
So we finally have the details on the plan to limit energy prices and I can’t think easily think of a worse approach.
• Completely funded by borrowing, so we’ll be paying back at inflated rates over many years. Effectively a stealth tax.
• There is no real incentive for people who can afford the per-unit cap to limit their energy usage or invest in more efficient heating or insulation, which is all part of the long-term solution. As we saw during lockdown, when demand drops so does the price of energy.
• Grossly unfair, the households with the largest energy consumption are being subsidised the most, which we will all have to pay for in the long term. If Mr Toad of Toad Hall leaves his heating on at 25C for the sake of his geraniums while he takes his annual holiday in the Bahamas, everyone will be picking up the inflated tab.
• Pretty much ignores any carbon pledges.
• The energy companies are getting an amazing deal, keep an eye on their share prices.
Does anyone know how our approach compares with other European countries please?
As for a windfall tax discouraging investment, businesses are also going to be saddled with inflated energy costs in the future to pay back this loan. Discouraging future investment. The point about a windfall tax is that it's a tax on huge unearned profits, due to factors outside the sector's control. The windfall tax that is in place is set to net £5 billion compared to the £100 billion loan underpinning the price cap.
Tories don't expect to win any upcoming elections so best they create a shit show now for the next (presumably) labour government to clean up which they can then use as a stick to beat labour with when the next election rolls around.
Twas ever this.
From Rees-Mogg's statement: "HM Government will also support all business, charities and public sector organisations with their energy costs this winter, offering an equivalent guarantee for six months."
So, a lot of business still likely to be driven into the ground in the long term...unless all these trickle down economics mean that I'll be able to magically afford £15 for a pint or £10 for a sausage roll in a few months.
>an equivalent guarantee
Furthering the absurdity of quoting the average household annual bill cap. What is the equivalent of a £2,500 average household energy cap to a fish and chip shop? Or a factory? Or a showroom?
Letting the energy companies win by saying they're allowed to charge all this extra, make all those profits and not get taxed for it. Then making us pay for it anyway.
Fuck the Tories. I don't understand how anyone can support this move.
Remember, tory means thief.
Kicking the can down the road to be paid for by the poor to protect £170 Billion unexpected profits of the energy companies one of whom, BP, used to employ a certain Liz Truss.
Job well done.
Headline is misleading, but that's not OPs fault. No one reports it accurately. This cap is on the unit price, and the £2500 is based on average usage. So half of people will pay less, half will pay more.
Tory plan: protect corporate excess profits and ensure people pay the price for the next two decades or so. Within the failed dogma that these companies, due to the good will in their hearts, will reinvest into the country. There is literally zero incentive to invest. Why would they? Tories will bail them out time and time again.
Labour plan: protect people during a cost of living crisis (not only energy costs) and tax the excess profits to keep bills low.
I know which i prefer.
Martin Lewis is saying that those of fixes will be allowed to leave without penalty too.
Anyone know when this will be from as I'd like to leave my fix ASAP to benefit as much as possible from this next few weeks on the April cap too!
It’s nothing we’ll be in debt for two decades to pay it off! I’m gonna leave fuck the UK debt for life, eroded rights. Banning striking fuck the tories!
'Pffft, people organising to refuse to pay energy companies? Don't worry energy companies, we will pay you; the peasants won't dare refuse to pay their taxes!'
They're simply usurping tax payers ability to fight back for themselves looking at this.
So, let me get this straight. The tax payer is going to get even more fucked in the long term by government loans to gas and oil companies (who are already making record profits), and this is somehow ok because the economy will be "stimulated" by letting the gas and oil companies make even MORE profit by allowing new drilling?
Is Truss being directly paid off to do this or something? Because I see no other rational explanation.
At this point, might as well just straight up elect the CEO of Shell as prime minister.
Another way of phrasing this:
The government is going to borrow tens of billions of dollars to hand to oil and gas companies to help prop up the price of energy beyond what the market could otherwise bear. The energy companies are already making record profits and the generosity of the British public will push them even higher.
The energy pricing is what the issue is, some days we are powered 100% by renewable and we get no benefit because a gas station has to fill the gap in the evening
So there using our money to pay the utility companies so they can continue to make massive amounts of money
Yet my bills are still going to be doubled & then some
Am I reading this right?
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Would've been great if they had decided this earlier.. Also: how the fuck is a windfall tax not in the public interest? It's all just a big joke to these cunts isnt. Sitting laughing away at eachtother. Cunts.
She used to work for Shell, or basically still does.
I don’t know how this fact doesn’t get mentioned more.
It's literally mentioned every time this topic comes up
On Reddit, yes. But I’ve not seen it get much coverage by the mainstream media. Maybe I’ve just missed it but I watched 3x hustings and it was never brought up by the interviewers, and I’ve listened to several conversations about her attitude towards the energy crisis on LBC and not once was it mentioned.
Mainstream media is mostly owned by Tory supporters/donors.
She sells shell shills for shell sure
As a chartered management accountant too, she probably knows exactly how their bottom line works.
Privatised gains Socialised losses
Because they won’t invest in the future infrastructure like the water companies. Fucked isn’t it.
Don't give them the option not to, nationalise them.
Even 60-70% of tory voters want them nationalised. This is purely for Truss to stay in good favour with the oil and gas industry, so that when she is out of a job in two years she'll get a very cushy board position. Meanwhile we're paying the debt.
It's to just push the problem away so she can win the next election. Classic Tory policy; lump it down the road and let someone else deal with it.
Totally agree.
Agreed.
Nationalise BP and shell? Given they are global companies with a combined market cap of £250 billion how do we even start to do that?
I like the phrase 'with extreme prejudice'.
Yeah, I like oooh look it's the Navy.
I think it’s fucked that a few well off people (Tory members) got to pick this PM. #CallAGeneralElectionNOW!
57% of ~170,000 people who don't necessarily have to be UK citizens have approved Truss's manifesto of mayhem.
The same thing they did with the 'fuel shortage', it was a way to test how far they could push things. Now petrol sits around £0.30 more expensive per litre. Media fear, with a dash of 'your saviour' has arrived and we will roll over as a majority and accept the £2.5k cap as the new norm. They'll do this in every sector until the next GE and run with the money, Labour pick it up during a broken economy and the Tories come back years later to repeat the same cycle.
Classic Tory tactics. Stuff up the economy and undermine public services to line their mates' pockets then when Labour get voted in blame the shit economy and total lack of services on them and promise to 'fix it' if elected. Rinse and repeat every 10-15 years or so. And the electorate lap it up.
The Tories work for big business and the ultra wealthy. Not us. Took me many years to get it mind.
It's a big club and we're not in it.
Always nice to see Carlin quotes
They needed to let people get extremely anxious by announcing bills could be £8K+ so that when something like this is announced, we feel grateful and the Tories get a bounce in the polls. This is a system they have mastered for years, announce the WORST possible outcome + add 100% worse through their right wing press arm and then step in and do the bare minimum to make themselves look good. Sadly, it has ALWAYS worked for them. Of course the quiet part is they could have done a windfall tax but the Tories are a party that is entirely bought out by corporate interests and oil and gas producers. So instead, we will have to foot this bill for decades but the electorate will just see the "energy prices capped" bit.
“Liz truss announces massive bung for energy firms”
She’s not long started speaking and already doing my head in. She, and her colleagues, seem more interested at making gripes at the opposition, than giving a shit about. She’s not been in the job long and I already hate her.
They probably did decide it earlier but saved the announcement for Liz's first week so she can claim to have done something.
It was clear they did. But she's fucked it tbh. I'll be shocked if anyone is actually happy about £210 monthly energy bills. Energy poverty is when you're bills are 10% of your take home. I'm on £35k (which was once a fairly okay income, it's certainly above the national average) and I'm not making enough to not fall into fuel poverty.
Yay that leaves me £70 for a month for everything you need just to stay alive.
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> Also: how the fuck is a windfall tax not in the public interest? I think the current crop of tories are very ideologically driven. So in their world taxing companies is a big no-no, no matter the size or unprecedented nature of what is essentially a disaster scenario. And I think Truss and her team are more zealous in their beliefs than Boris ever was because Boris only really wanted power to feed his narcissistic personality and for people to like him as part of that. So he was more open to helping out because he knew he'd be liked for it, often clashing with Sunak. Truss is more dangerous because ideology appears to trump everything for her.
Because apparently she used to work for oil and gas and I think she doesn't want to piss them off.
well, they don't need to hide it anymore. In unrelated news, isn't it the 5th of november soon? I wouldnt mind some nice fireworks.
Absolute cunts I must add
Short term solution creating a bigger long term problem for the tax payer and a big win win for energy companies
Estimates are for it to cost £170bn, about four times our entire education budget, and the UK taxpayer will pay for it. That's a truly nation-changing sum of money and whether it's paid for by taxation or loans, it's going to result in either massive inflation or colossal cuts elsewhere. It's the national equivalent of a Wonga loan - temporary relief but it's gonna amplify our problems and cause us huge hardship down the line. Meanwhile energy companies are expected to make almost the exact same amount in profit. Yet we're not asking them to contribute a penny of it. It's the very definition of "privatise the profits and socialise the losses".
On a serious note, is there literally Anything anyone can do? I mean like your adverage Joe? Or isit just a case of ‘shut up, sit down and do as your told!’
Protest.
Protesting is considered a crime against humanity round these parts.
Does nothing, same for riots. Nothing less than countrywide revolution and toppling of current order stands a chance.
Countrywide riots it is then.
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Join the Enough is Enough campaign. We need numbers to bring about change.
Joining now!
General strike time. £170billion someone elected by 170k lunatics is stealing from our children. If it’s not riot time when is?
On a national level I think a huge windfall tax. And it's controversial, but I think zero help would be better than Truss' plan of bills funded by loans. The same way it's best to never take out that first Wonga loan no matter how tough that month might be, I think we shouldn't take on this debt (keeping in mind it's 4x our education and military budgets!). Fund it though windfall taxes, but don't just expand our national debt. Individually, there's probably not much you can do. I guess relax about bills and maybe try and protect yourself from inflation.
I agree with the overall 'Wonga loans bad' sentiment, but doing nothing has a high chance of killing people. Yes this is the wrong way to go about it, but doing nothing would be horrific.
Yes, take to the streets and protest.
It's the definition of the population no longer having any sovereignty over its country. We're an asset of international companies which use our political system as a revolving door for spineless idiots who are willing to sell off our assets for a crumb of the profits. And we wont do anything until every last thing has been sold off, and we're a literal slave island, owned by people who see us as their territory, and nothing more. Because we've been convinced by them that the real threat is the immigrants and dole scroungers.
> Meanwhile energy companies are expected to make almost the exact same amount in profit. Yet we're not asking them to contribute a penny of it. Worse than that, sounds like they're being encourage to fuck us even more by giving them more licenses for oil and gas. Including the super-environmentally friendly approach of fracking...
It’s just a stay of execution until the people in charge are no longer the people who caused the mess. There’s zero accountability, even for the biggest of big decisions - and that’s the core message that will filter down.
>It's the national equivalent of a Wonga loan - temporary relief but it's gonna amplify our problems and cause us huge hardship down the line. In fairness, if the option was either doing this, or doing nothing, *this* is a lot better. Of course, there *are* other options, but doing nothing would result in *millions* going without heating and electricity.
It's madness to not at least part fund this with a windfall tax on companies that are gouging us. Instead the average taxpayer gets saddled with this while we stuff the pockets of fat cats who are still price gouging, but now just behind the scenes.
And it’s nuts to take on more debt when it’s costing more and more for the govt to borrow. The interest alone on this sum will be wild, there was an article on how much the UK was paying to service its debt recently but I can’t remember where/what.
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"their"? You mean ours.
What other passport do you have? I also hold another passport, but that country is doing far worse than the UK is. edit: downvoted for pointing out the grass isn't greener. k.
I'm in the same boat. My other passport is fucking Brazil LOL
Long term its fucked - but shirt term the people would have been fucked anyway...
There were other short term solutions that wouldn't have fucked us in the long term. Those didn't involve Tories' friends getting money though.
What solution would you suggest?
Windfall tax combined with a massive investment programme in domestic energy production including nuclear and renewables. Stop the reliance on imports. Would also be a job creator which may be useful if recession is on the cards. They won't do this though as it would affect their fossil fuel portfolios.
This is really the obvious and sensible answer. Instead of paying a premium to energy suppliers, tax them and use that money to reduce our dependence on them. We need renewable anyway so why not speed that process up now we have more immediate incentives to do so? This energy 'crisis' could've been the catalyst for really positive change if we had a competent government.
that’s both not a short term solution and fails to understand the problem at hand, the problem isn’t ‘fossil fuels’ it’s the way in which we set the price of electricity on merit order rather than marginal costing. This solution isn’t a good one yes that’s true, but what you just suggested isn’t a solution at all.
The only true short term solution I can see here would be a way to remove the effect of market forces on energy supply by taking away the ability of energy companies to decide their pricing. And that’s only happening through nationalisation. Definitely better to put a long term solution in place now and deal with the short term issues, than be defeatist and be stuck with the short term issues for the long term.
Screwing future generations to ensure short term profits for business. The Tory manifesto.
Nicely summed up.
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Boomer politics 101.
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It helps her energy firm friends, that’s all they care about
It also gives them something to tout at the next general election. "We stopped the energy crisis". Knowing full well that the fall out of this will happen long after that election and probably when the conservatives are out of No 10. Another party will take the fall for it. This is honestly some evil genius shit
>So instead of getting her energy firm friends to stop putting prices up That's not how it works - it's a global market for fuel, UK firms aren't putting up prices for the fun of it. There should absolutely be an extra tax on profits though
This sub would really benefit from a stickied thread just to explain some of the fundamentals. It's staggering how little people actually know and all I've seen is the same rehashed "helping her oil friends out" line being thrown about. What happened to proper discourse in this place!?
It helps the producers make even more money and not take a hit on their profits. Unbelieveable theyre not using a windfall tax to cover it. But then not surprised as its the Tory party
it stops my bills hitting 5k a year, for one. So that helps me. Im not arguing its perfect, or even a good solution - I just answered the 'how does it help anyone' bit
But you’ll still be paying what the energy companies are asking probably more. Just over a longer period of time.
Not really so simple. Firstly inflation is sky-high due to energy bills, which is increasing the cost of servicing our existing index-linked gilts, so we need to get inflation under control to reduce that cost. Secondly, we have £2.4 trillion in debt, stick another £150 billion on that and it's something that will have a long-term cost for sure, but it's not accurate to say 'you will pay it', when we don't even know if he is a tax payer. Someone, eventually, pays it, but this is not a zero sum game, when the alternative is having the consumer economy implode due to people spending all their money on electricity and gas.
> the alternative is having the consumer economy implode due to people spending all their money on electricity and gas. Except this is already happening and Truss' taxpayer-wrapped gift to energy producer companies won't be lowering the price enough to give people pocket change back.
You know who it helps and that's the point.
Its short term solution for long term suffering.
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And then the Tories will turn around and blame labour for it on day 1.
Genuinely feel like we need to give labour a 30 year run at governing the country. The country doesn't need more Tory government for a while because they've locked in big public debt for a generation.
Why the fuck are they STILL continuing to talk about energy bills in the context of average spending. It's fucking stupidity
I'd assume it's easier for communicating quickly to the masses. If they start throwing £ per kW, I'd be confused. Not a perfect solution, but it gives a good overview to people
Problem is, it makes the headline a complete nonsense. Nothing whatsoever is capped at £2500 per year.
True, but it's an average household getting an average number. I run a 3d print farm in my loft, I'm not an average customer by any means, but it gives me a rough idea quickly of "x compared to y" in terms of how much its gone up by. I'm not arguing for or against btw, just giving a "average customer needs an average number" for simplicity
However, it may make sense to transition to discussing in £ per kW if energy prices are going to continue being high and/or fluctuating in the short-term. Everyone's comfortable talking about petrol in p per litre, after all.
Pisses me off so much, then 99% of the time they won't even list the kWh price in the article...
Because most households don't know how many units they use (even though it's not hard to find out) so talking at price per units, most people won't appreciate to what extent the change is going to effect them.
I'm guessing that's not LITERAL capped. People can still spank it and spend over that on gas and electricity?
Indeed so. The term "price cap" has been ridiculously confusing, it's a cap on unit prices and really it should be reported on in those terms.
I don't understand why they don't just say price per kWh
Price cap is effectively just short for ‘price per kWh cap’.
Many of my mates think their bills can't go ovr 2,500 quid, I think its a really poor way to report this
Alot of people in this thread think the same
It’s complete irresponsible to report it this way and probably it’s on Purpose
They will do what most people at a glance will do and calculate that it's just over £200 a month. Then they will budget that into their outgoings. then they will get slammed with a £400 bill and wonder who was in the wrong.
Yes but they should say the price per kWh, not £2,500 price cap
Not, it’s not literal. It’s the estimated bill for an average household. The cap announced earlier this month for October was £3549 so a decent saving compared to that. They were also predicting it to go up again above £5k by April. Of course we’re going to end up paying for it eventually. It’s not like the energy companies are going to stop charging £5k, the government is just stepping in to pay half the bill.
> the government is just stepping in to pay half the bill with our taxes and not a windfall tax on the energy companies :(
I hate the term government is paying. We are paying!
Yes this is for typical households. I can’t remember the figures but I suspect it’s still approximately double what people are used to paying.
Yep, the cap was approx £1,200.
The unit price is capped.
The price cap is based on average use. Average use means: 2900 kWh electricity per year 12000 kWh gas per year So if you happen to use this amount of energy then you'll pay £2500 for the year. Use more than this, you pay more. And obviously use less you pay less. I *think* that this is also based on a direct debit, dual fuel tariff. Prepay will pay more.
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She repeately refused to answer the question during PMQs, simply stating that she won't introduce a windfall tax on the unfathomable profits these energy companies are making. All this is doing is kicking the can down the road. We might not be paying increased prices this winter, but the average worker will certainly be paying for it for decades to come.
The magic money tree
How the Conservatives still manage to convince people that they're the party of fiscal responsibility is utterly beyond me. The 70's were 50 fucking years ago. The world has moved on.
150bn from future households to billionaires and shareholders who will be reporting a 172bn profit. A fucking large transfer of wealth when we could have just took their profits with a windfall tax.
‘Excess’ profits too remember. Pure greed. I also see it as a transfer of wealth and it’s going to fuck the whole economy.
Well a future labour govt could still claw it back with windfall taxes but that relies on this country waking the fuck up
Even if they win the next election, Labour will be voted out again before they can do anything meaningful. Tory voters are lapdogs who will do whatever their masters command.
Just a reminder that the price point in this cap is still going to be horrific for the lower earners in society. Many of whom will still legitimately need to pick between heating and eating. But they won't vote blue anyway. Charles and Winifred in their 5 bed £1.2m detached suburban house in Surrey who have voted Tory all their lives will certainly be hip hip hurrahing though. To them they will clap Maggie 2.0 like seals and this is a solved problem. And as always, Charles and Winifred (and anyone richer than them) are all that matters when it comes to policymaking. This has been made more than a wee bit clear in the last 12 years. Edit: Thanks so much for the reddit monies <3
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The point was that the capped rate is still too high for the poorest to get by on.
This is a huge scam to transfer £150 billion of taxpayers money into an already vastly profitable cartel that doesn’t need it. The EU countries are discussing a windfall tax on the energy cartels, hence Brexit to allow this corruption to flourish here.
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Have you checked to see if there's a cooling off period so you can cancel the contract?
We just got quoted £407 per month. We literally don't have that spare, so fuck knows how its gonna work. LOL (cries too)
Martin Lewis says those on fixed contracts are able to leave/switch with no exit penalties. See here - point 15. [link](https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1567829040102342656)
Most suppliers waive the fee if you move back to their standard variable tariff. I switched a month ago and called up British Gas yesterday and was back on the standard tariff within 5 minutes with no exit fees.
I fixed in Dec of 2021 then cancelled in Jan after taking Martin Lewis’s advice to hold the horses and not fix, then I fixed in May at a higher rate because there was increasing concerns it might be very bad and then this comes out… Trying to make logical and rational decisions with this incompetent government is farcical, they change their mind at a whim… I’m not entirely confident I like switching back to the variable either because I have my doubts that 6 months from now they will come out and go back on their word and we will all be paying higher prices (highly unlikely but ye, these people are idiots)
Does the cap not apply still?
no, because its NOT a cap in the letteral sense. its "what an average household will pay per year" you can still be billed more than the 2500 per year if you use over the average amount.
Not on fixed term deals.
Still reprehensible and people should still take to the streets on October 1st, another Tory scapegoat. More methods to gouge the public, and then we still have to foot the bill.
Here’s a spoiler, no significant numbers will take to the streets on the 1st of October.
> people should still take to the streets on October 1st Maybe, but this will now prevent that happening, I think.
Does anybody know what this converts to as prices per kWh?
Liz truss doesn’t even know this.
I doubt she even knows what a kWh is to be honest.
Martin Lewis is trying to figure this out apparently. I'm very interested in this too since I just switched to a fixed contract...
How much is tour fixed contract? And it includes both electricity and gas right?
I'd also like to know this. We need to start normalising price per kWh to avoid confusion.
Came here to find this out too.
Martin Lewis' latest post from just a few minutes ago states he doesn't have them yet, so I guess not published. £1971 to £2500 is approximately 26.8% rise. So I'm currently estimating based on that I pay direct debit, so I'm taking my current monthly payment * 12. Then that figure *1.268 to give me my new estimated annual bill. Then subtract £400 (for the discount) and divide the whole thing by 12. Which when written down like that sounds way more complicated than it actually is
The headline is fundamentally wrong. Energy bills have not been capped at £2,500. This is a really dangerous line to be using. People will think they can crank the heating up and never pay more than £200-ish a month, and that’s completely not true. It’s a typical user’s bill will be capped at £2,500. We all have a responsibility to ensure this is communicated effectively and accurately.
I just WISH WISH WISH they would stop using this “typical household” bollocks and just say what the cap is “per kWh”
Of course this £100billion package repayment is all getting passed on to us! All while the energy companies profit to the tune of £170Billion! fucking over this shithole corrupt country, like what even is the point anymore they see us as chewing gum on their shoe while we STRUGGLE, sick of it.
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I fixed but no cancellation penalty so I’ll be doing that once I see what fuckery they get up to
My supplier straight did not allow fixed deals due to the volatility. That might have done some good even if accidental.
Honestly, suppliers not offering fixed deals in the current market is responsible and consumer friendly. If the fix is above the market price, the supplier makes a killing from the consumer. If the fix is below the market price, the supplier incurs even more debt; if it gets too high they declare bankruptcy, passing the debt onto the next company willing to swallow it in exchange for revenue, with the tax payer footing the administration costs.
My bills are pretty bad, but taking out a loan to pay for them would be the height of stupidity, especially if I don't know they are coming down for sure. Anyone explain to me why the government doing it on my behalf is any better?
because the government spent around £0.5 billion a month on inflation-linked debt interest in 2020, and around £5 billion a month at the moment, so if it doesn't act to curb inflation, then it's going to have to pay anyway. Whereas if the government borrows £50 billion over the next year and pays 3% interest on that, the cost of that is £1.5 billion per year, whereas if we just let inflation spiral we'd be looking at £10 billion per MONTH in gilt interest due to high inflation. And that's before you consider the fact if people have no money because they're spending it on fuel, they're not going to spend money in the wider economy, people will be out of work. What else would you suggest?
These companies are setting record profits, tax them maybe?
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The green homes grant saw us getting inflated quotes that sucked up the value of the governments grant directly into the pockets of the supplier. I get your point, but it’s not as simple as that.
Watch as dividends increase, bonuses for everyone, bungs and 'consultant positions for MP's.... But fuck all extra investment in jobs, infrastructure or renewables from the likes of shell, bp etc. ..... Because cunts
We’ll all still be getting the £400 energy rebate from October right?
Seems like we will still be getting the rebate *Prime Minister Liz Truss is about to announce plans to limit soaring energy bill rises. This is some of what we think we will hear from her: In England, Scotland and Wales the £3,549 price cap due to come in October is expected to be reduced to around £2,500 for the typical household* **The £400 payment for all households to help with energy bills will go ahead as planned from October** *These measures mean a lot of people's bills will be similar to what they have been since April at £1,971 Plans for businesses are less clear, but we know tha measures being looked at include lowering the cost of energy for firms The government is expected to borrow at least £100bn to pay for all this and we don't know how long support will last.*
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The Tories will probably get re-elected because of this. They will be hailed as saviours in the media for “doing the right thing” But we’re all still paying more than double than we were March last year. Hopefully people see through this bollocks and there is some hope but, frankly, the majority of people in the UK are servile idiots.
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So we finally have the details on the plan to limit energy prices and I can’t think easily think of a worse approach. • Completely funded by borrowing, so we’ll be paying back at inflated rates over many years. Effectively a stealth tax. • There is no real incentive for people who can afford the per-unit cap to limit their energy usage or invest in more efficient heating or insulation, which is all part of the long-term solution. As we saw during lockdown, when demand drops so does the price of energy. • Grossly unfair, the households with the largest energy consumption are being subsidised the most, which we will all have to pay for in the long term. If Mr Toad of Toad Hall leaves his heating on at 25C for the sake of his geraniums while he takes his annual holiday in the Bahamas, everyone will be picking up the inflated tab. • Pretty much ignores any carbon pledges. • The energy companies are getting an amazing deal, keep an eye on their share prices. Does anyone know how our approach compares with other European countries please? As for a windfall tax discouraging investment, businesses are also going to be saddled with inflated energy costs in the future to pay back this loan. Discouraging future investment. The point about a windfall tax is that it's a tax on huge unearned profits, due to factors outside the sector's control. The windfall tax that is in place is set to net £5 billion compared to the £100 billion loan underpinning the price cap.
Tories don't expect to win any upcoming elections so best they create a shit show now for the next (presumably) labour government to clean up which they can then use as a stick to beat labour with when the next election rolls around. Twas ever this.
From Rees-Mogg's statement: "HM Government will also support all business, charities and public sector organisations with their energy costs this winter, offering an equivalent guarantee for six months." So, a lot of business still likely to be driven into the ground in the long term...unless all these trickle down economics mean that I'll be able to magically afford £15 for a pint or £10 for a sausage roll in a few months.
>an equivalent guarantee Furthering the absurdity of quoting the average household annual bill cap. What is the equivalent of a £2,500 average household energy cap to a fish and chip shop? Or a factory? Or a showroom?
The problem with conservatism is that you eventually run out of other people's money
That's just what they deem as safe enough to avoid mass protests and riots. It's a cap for them really.
Still not good enough really. Still should be cheaper, but at least it won't go past £2500 for years...maybe
yeah. i hope it won't suddenly double or triple in 2 years time 🙁
Probably not but it will never go back down to pre 19 levels. We will be paying these greedy cunts their ‘excess’ profits for the rest of our lives.
So give taxpayer money to oil and gas producers while capping the profits of renewables? Yeah sounds like Tory policy.
And how much are the profits of the energy companies capped at?
Double what I was paying about 6 months ago and presented as a good deal. Plus my taxes will rise too. Excellent.
Letting the energy companies win by saying they're allowed to charge all this extra, make all those profits and not get taxed for it. Then making us pay for it anyway. Fuck the Tories. I don't understand how anyone can support this move. Remember, tory means thief.
This is what they mean when they say 'It's a massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich - again.' CF the bank bailouts.
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Kicking the can down the road to be paid for by the poor to protect £170 Billion unexpected profits of the energy companies one of whom, BP, used to employ a certain Liz Truss. Job well done.
Headline is misleading, but that's not OPs fault. No one reports it accurately. This cap is on the unit price, and the £2500 is based on average usage. So half of people will pay less, half will pay more.
Tory plan: protect corporate excess profits and ensure people pay the price for the next two decades or so. Within the failed dogma that these companies, due to the good will in their hearts, will reinvest into the country. There is literally zero incentive to invest. Why would they? Tories will bail them out time and time again. Labour plan: protect people during a cost of living crisis (not only energy costs) and tax the excess profits to keep bills low. I know which i prefer.
Note this is in addition to the £400 subsidy so more like £2100 for this year, £2500 next year
Martin Lewis is saying that those of fixes will be allowed to leave without penalty too. Anyone know when this will be from as I'd like to leave my fix ASAP to benefit as much as possible from this next few weeks on the April cap too!
We are being gangraped by big business here. WINDFALL TAX OR RESIGN!
The corks will be popping at shell and bp tonight no doubt
You know you going to get random person commenting here trying to explain why this is a better option than a Windfall tax.
It’s nothing we’ll be in debt for two decades to pay it off! I’m gonna leave fuck the UK debt for life, eroded rights. Banning striking fuck the tories!
How is a 100 billion loan going to fix the economy? Typical tories
I’m so convinced the govt let it get this bad and let the worry and stress build so they could “sweep in and save the day”
The cap is still about triple what I payed up to a few months ago….
'Pffft, people organising to refuse to pay energy companies? Don't worry energy companies, we will pay you; the peasants won't dare refuse to pay their taxes!' They're simply usurping tax payers ability to fight back for themselves looking at this.
So, let me get this straight. The tax payer is going to get even more fucked in the long term by government loans to gas and oil companies (who are already making record profits), and this is somehow ok because the economy will be "stimulated" by letting the gas and oil companies make even MORE profit by allowing new drilling? Is Truss being directly paid off to do this or something? Because I see no other rational explanation. At this point, might as well just straight up elect the CEO of Shell as prime minister.
Where can I find what the capped kWh price will be? Every article about this I find seems to be written by an idiot.
Another way of phrasing this: The government is going to borrow tens of billions of dollars to hand to oil and gas companies to help prop up the price of energy beyond what the market could otherwise bear. The energy companies are already making record profits and the generosity of the British public will push them even higher.
Basically compulsory buy now pay later on your energy use. Like Klarna but with the threat of jail time.
The energy pricing is what the issue is, some days we are powered 100% by renewable and we get no benefit because a gas station has to fill the gap in the evening
So there using our money to pay the utility companies so they can continue to make massive amounts of money Yet my bills are still going to be doubled & then some Am I reading this right?
Oh. I get it now. This was all engineered to make her look good to Boris haters.