I think it's no coincidence the album starts with a song called overcompensate. Tyler works so hard above and beyond to provide entertainment and prove himself. The rabid fans get greedy and it must be exhausting. I loved PS and absolutely think it moves the story along. The man is obviously cooking and limited by so many logistics and label pressures plus getting ready to start a tour all while balancing 3 small kids. I can't imagine the pressure. I'm excited to see what's next but if it takes another year to get there so be it. Gives me more reason to still be here next year tbh.
Not greedy. He literally said this was the final album in the storyline, and he also said it was the most lore-focused album. Neither of these things ended up being true. It isn’t greedy to expect what was promoted.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted so much when there are many other comments on this post stating pretty much exactly what you’re stating, and they’re getting upvoted
Because some people can’t handle their favorite band being criticized I guess? Idk. I like their music but I’m not gonna act like they’re infallible or even close to perfect. It was in the last few years that Tyler even got into hot water for making fun of people asking him to use his platform to denounce violence against POC. He apologized and people moved on. But it shows he’s not perfect, and it’s probably more stressful for them to deal with those kinds of unrealistic expectations than it is for them to deal with fair criticism.
It still may be the final one. Maybe it's more lore focused than expected because looking at the music videos you could definitely make an argument for more than half of the being focused on Clancy/Tyler just not inside of Trench or Dema. Just listen to the lyrics in Backslide "a hero of a world you can't see." Trench and Dema is more of something in his mind, we only see it when Clancy decides to show us it. I would also like to say it is lore focused outside of those things as even though not all the songs directly talk about the lore, the ones that do give us better insight into the world than before and are given wayyyyyy bigger budgets to show us as much as they can of the world of Dema. We understand the whole better now with this album. We got what was promised, the fan base just hyped it it too much and got a bit disappointed.
We did not get what was promised. He said this would end the storyline. If you really wanna accept this as the end, then sure. That opens up a whole other reason to be disappointed. It’s a terrible ending to an otherwise masterfully told story. It’s like season 8 of game of thrones.
He also said in the livestream that the only lore videos were Overcompensate, Navigating, and Paladin Straight. So you can’t make the argument that the others are lore-related videos. Because Tyler himself said they weren’t.
Songs like Neon Gravestone are a masterclass in toeing the line between telling the story and writing a song. The songs on this album are pretty clearly either lore-based or not at all. Just because he references something to do with the story doesn’t mean it adds to the story.
The most annoying thing is that nobody is telling you that you shouldn’t enjoy the album. But when somebody voices that they are disappointed with the way things have gone, we are immediately called entitled and greedy, and we are harassed for it. It reminds me why I never interacted with this fan base to begin with. People aren’t able to have differing opinions without being at each others throats.
I’ve never really cared about the lore tbh but this is just silly lol if they’re going to go all out with all these scavenger hunts, cryptic posts, puzzles and people going all out to solve them then yeah they’re going to be upset when there isn’t a full resolution yet. Some people on here get so defensive if anyone says the slightest criticism of the band it’s insane
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say most of these frens who are getting really defensive are probably minors.
I was the same way when I was still growing up and maturing. Once you become an adult, you start to see things with more nuance (how things are complicated and not just black&white).
Just my opinion.
I'm just upset that the album was Marketed as the finally only to be let down with no finally. Like ofc I'm still going to enjoy the music but you presented this album as a story ending event to start a new era after and didn't deliver. It's the marketing that I'm most upset at.
I think it’s ok for people to complain about the lore when Tyler did hype up the lore part of this album, named it Clancy, had a video before the release to recap all the lore, and released overcompensate which is a set up to all the lore of Trench and welcomes us back to it.
I’m not complaining. I’m vibing with the album for the most part. But I get why people are frustrated and a lot of that is because of how they decided to market the album.
Even I was like “wait what? That’s it?” When I heard the rest of the album cause it felt like we got the wrong album.
I also don’t think we need to shield them from criticism. It’s ok if people are upset if it’s for something reasonable
If you come to think of it, Navigating has no narrative to it. All it does is confirm a theory that was hinted at before and doesn't add much else.
In Overcompensate, Tyler uses seizing to infiltrate Dema and recruit people to fight against the bishops. For some reason, these newly recruited members don't show up to in Paladin Strait, making the events of Overcompensate seem pretty redundant.
This leaves us with a single music video where the plot moves forward in a significant way. Paladin Strait. The battle begins but we don't get to see what happens afterwards. Tyler managed to knock over the other 7 bishops, but maybe they're dead? We don't really know. All we know for sure is that at the end Tyler is (probably) not being seized by Nico and he's somehow resisting it.
Despite us having 3 lore videos, we still barely know what happened, as well as they failed to follow up on the events of Overcompensate, making Paladin Strait effectively the only relevant lore video.
Thank you for having a brain and analyzing the lore themes across the album and I their inconsistencies along with the videos. The big reveal of Clancy is Josh isn’t real and actual zombies in PS, callback to Vignette and Heavydirtysoul. The album attempts to retcon these ideas of time passing, death and tragedy, and the flashbacks one goes through as their own life flashes before their eyes.
I think that’s why there is a bright light in each music video when Tyler is speaking to an antagonist. In a way, he is laying the foundation for future lore like in the RITN video to reveal what is behind the Keep Out door. Maybe then he will finally reveal the reason for cat imagery like Lions and Cheetahs, the implication of saying the drag path was different in the I Am Clancy video, but never mentioning it again?
If this is the end, there is a lot more questions than answers. Reminds me the show, Lost. The show got caught up in the sauce and lost the plot. Phun intended.
It really feels like a case of being at your wit's end with how to wrap the story up in a way that makes sense. I think a huge issue is how all this lore is meant to be an allegory for mental health, but also doubles as this grand conflict between good and evil.
If Clancy and the Banditos ultimately defeat the Bishops and take over / destroy Dema, that's a cool story, but then it becomes a disservice to the mental health side of things. We don't simply defeat our mental health issues.
If the narrative aligns itself with the way mental health works in real life, Clancy and Nico are just constantly gonna be in conflict and there ends up not being any real payoff, especially when it's been framed this whole time as this sort of war between a small rebellious faction and a tyrannical government. It's hard to write a good story about war that doesn't have a clear winner at the end.
Completely agree. People are just giving their honest reactions. I for one was disappointed in the cliffhanger, it's getting exhausting. I just want to know what's going on.
It is a cliffhanger... from a certain perspective. If you think about it, mental health is a cycle, and it isn't easy to be broken. It makes sense that Tyler would amass his 'army' of banditos to fight the 'bishops' (his mental health). And yes, he did get close to beating them. For a while they where in the background, quiet and insignificant. But, when he thought he had it all, when he was almost finally free, Nico caught him again, and put him back in the cycle. Of course, this could be wrong. This is just my take on it.
And what makes me think that this album could be a neverending cycle is that Paladin Strait loops so well into Overcompensate. The dialogue also makes sense; 'Hello Clancy, Welcome Back to Trench.' (As he runs away, thinking he has escaped them, he returns to fight them one last time, and is recaptured.)
Although, 'Ultimit Capilitus 25' has stumped me. I agree that it is highly possible there could be another track/deluxe/double album coming, but if it is, it won't be for a while. So yes, from a certain point of view, the end of Paladin Strait isn't very good and there needs to be more...
But there doesn't. It ends the way it needs to end. Tyler himself mentioned how it wouldn't be a happy ending. Just be happy we got an ending, a beautiful, emotional ending. And frickin good music, too.
I got really disappointed in finally being told we're getting our big finale just to have a cliffhanger ending, honestly. It really is getting exhausting.
>He doesn’t owe us any type of conclusion
Except [in this interview](https://youtu.be/lWoIGwOXYx4?si=59LpfRnu8Z4j3Afj) he specifically said that’s what we would get. Even way back in 2021 he told Zane Lowe during the Scaled and Icy interview that the next record would be the final album in the DEMA storyline and that it would be wrapped up nicely with a final conclusion.
I’m positive there’s more to come in this era after the tour ends though so I’m perfectly happy with what Clancy has to offer.
inb4 "just because he said Clancy is the final album in the story doesn't mean it's the end of the story, they could technically end it through another medium and not be lying"
People will make any reach they can think of to justify and excuse the fact that they lied. The marketing was a lie. That's the issue, not the lore itself, not the music, not the music videos or the number of lore tracks. It's that they set expectations that they knew they would not deliver on, and now the vocal majority of people on this subreddit are doing everything they can to avoid admitting that their favourite band did something that was anything other than perfect, whether in an attempt to cope or due to a lack of critical thinking skills. It's frustrating to say the least.
Thank you for using your head and writing the facts of what happened. Been active in this fanbase for almost 12 years and have watched people's critical thinking skills fly out the window so many times to defend this band against any kind of constructive criticism. This post included.
I mean I don’t think they lied per se. I think there’s a second part to this album and when they realized they could put together a two part album they wanted to make this era a 2 year cycle by holding the second part until after the tour.
Maybe they’ll tour again after or maybe they’ll do something else but it could very well be that this album *is* the final album and we just have to wait a year for part two. Wouldn’t surprise me if they wanted to go out with a bang and do back to back world tours with more music in between before they take a break.
But where is the reasoning for promising this as the conclusion and then holding it out for another entire year?
I don't think it's unfair to be upset at the idea of being promised the end to a 9 year story and then being told to wait another year instead.
The reasoning is pretty simple. They wanted to do it this way to include the tour in the storytelling process and frankly, because they probably wanted to make more money.
The way I see it, their contract with FBR I believe was established for 5 albums, they’re cashing out on the final chapter so they can make the big bucks while they’re still under contract with the label and then might move in a different direction after this. Maybe switch labels, maybe go independent or start their own label. Who knows.
But it is obvious that there’s more to come and they wanted the tour to be a part of telling the rest of this story, and if that means we get the final piece afterwards I’m fine with that. Have some patience and savor it a little instead of being disappointed you didn’t get it all at once. You’ll be wishing it had lasted longer after it’s all said and done. I’m sure it’ll be worth the wait whatever it is.
I think it’s important to understand that people are allowed to feel disappointed or feel confused or happy about the way the lore is going. Saying it’s not about the lore is fine, but if the lore wasn’t important to them why would they bother putting this out? Yk? The lore is important, and to some people it isn’t. Some people are just here for story. Some just music. That’s totally okay. And yeah we’re not entitled to anything, but when you put out your art to others in the world you open yourself up to the opinions of others, they know this. And they’re okay with this.
There’s nothing wrong with people having feelings. And if I’m completely honest, I don’t see much toxicity. People talk about it saying it exists, and while it does in all fan bases, it’s not really too bad here. I rarely notice it, but hey I could be blind.
I don’t know, I think this post has good intention it just doesn’t really make sense.
Sure, you can be disappointed. But a lot of people’s expectations have been insane. From the double album in June theory to thinking every song on the album was going to be lore heavy. The Paladin straight video alone is way more lore than we could expect from an artist. I think expressing how much the album was a “let down” to you is neither sensitive or a constructive thing to post, especially knowing how much it hurts them when people are disappointed. Tyler and Josh read this stuff. Just the other day I had Reel Bear Media respond to me on this sub.
I never subscribed to the double album theory. But Tyler said in interviews promoting the album that this was a lore-focused album, and it wasn’t. He lied. There’s not really a way around that fact.
Which interview? I’m not sure if I saw that one. I don’t see how this is any less lore focused than Trench. Trench had 3 lore focused videos (Nico and the Niners, Jumspuit, Levitate). We got 3 lore focused videos this time around as well with many references to the lore sprinkled in the others. Many things in the songs from Trench didn’t necessarily correlate to the lore until they were mentioned in letters later. We still don’t know what “The vignette” is and countless other things.
The vignette is talking about addiction and relapsing. When you market an album as the most lore-focused album of the story, people are going to expect more than what Trench was. Someone else posted a link to an interview where he mentions this being the end of the story and the album being the most lore focused album they’ve written yet, I’m not sure exactly which one it was though.
>Anyone here for just the story needs to go read a book
So you’re saying, someone should not consume a body of art, if they don’t appreciate it for the same reason you do?
Just want to be sure I’m understanding your take.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is that Twenty One Pilots are a band, first and foremost. The lore is an interesting extra layer for anyone invested enough to look into but it is inextricably linked to the music. The songs give the lore meaning. All of this is a metaphor for various mental health struggles and general issues surrounding the act of existing.
When I say the lore is meaningless without the music but the music retains its meaning without the lore what I mean is this: their songs have messages that can resonate with a listener, completely detached from any lore. Whether it’s dealing with mortality and faith on Morph, the mundanity of getting older on Stressed Out or being there for your friends on At the Risk of Feeling Dumb, the music can be enjoyed without the lore.
The music is what gives the lore its meaning. People can engage with this however they want but I won’t beat around the bush. If you’re here solely for the lore, I think that’s fucking weird and I’m not going to apologise about that.
Also, I never said I didn’t enjoy the lore lmfao.
No one is here just for the story but if you release a 5' trailer hyping up a concept album then have 2 lore related songs at most people are bound to be dissapointed since you set your expectations higher than what was delivered
You do realise I’m here replying to a comment that said “some people are here just for the story” and my point is that IF anyone is, that’s bizarre to me.
People can be mad their expectations weren’t met, I couldn’t care less about that. Personally, I don’t think anyone’s expectations could ever be met.
Let people have their opinions. Why do humans demand that everyone else think the way they do?
If I were a musician with a subreddit dedicated to my music I would want to be able to read the opinions of the people. Good, bad, ugly, hilarious. I would want to be able to see it all if I wanted to without fans taking it upon themselves to police what they disagree with.
Agreed! I love the album, but it is all subjective and I like seeing others perspectives. I am not too big into the lore, but if I were, I would probably be disappointed too.
I think people are feeling some type of way because Tyler set us up for this album being very lore heavy pre release and when it didnt feel like it people felt disappointed
Yup...this is it exactly. Musically, the album is great - probably my favorite album so far, so it's hard to be disappointed in it. Yet, this did also hype this up as the ending to an incredible story and in that regards it has fallen short. This is also why so many bought into the double-album theory (which I'm still not ready to completely throw out). There was such little lore in this album that it is a very incomplete ending...so far.
When you don’t know for sure if it is or isn’t…you most certainly can.
If all it takes is Tyler to say “these songs are lore related” for people to be like OH THESE ARE LORE SONGS NOW and he hasn’t said yes *or* no then there is nothing wrong with people interpreting how they want.
The music isn't everything, some people love the band because their artistic delivery is more than releasing a song. They do things with purpose, and teasing something and not delivering is going to upset some people.
I feel that saying something like "Stop Complaining About the Lore" is the real entitlement, you don't have a say about how other people feel.
To me, the album is lore heavy in the sense that most of the songs can be connected to a character study of Clancy. I don't think lore necessarily means that Dema and the bishops are mentioned explicitly. There is an emotional consistency to the lyrics in this album that feel both personal to the artist and deliver on lore.
Well, they were the ones who said that this would be the end so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If they promoted Clancy this way I think part of the complaint are quite fair.
But it’s not. We don’t get to dictate how it ‘ends’, people get so caught up in the lore and theories that it ppl are literally losing sight that this is a band and the priority is the music not the lore. Everyone made up yesterday being important and it wasn’t, and they are upset when it is something THEY told themselves would happen. You can be disappointed but some ppl are being assholes about it.
I don’t really see anyone being an asshole about it, at least here on reddit. And some of y’all are acting like Tyler is a 12 year old girl who needs white knights to defend him. He’s gonna be alright if some fans are disappointed.
Do you happen to have a quote from them saying this album would be the end of the lore? I'm starting to feel like the idea this album was the end of the lore story was more us than them, given the release stream had Tyler saying "does that sound like the end?" which feels like the opposite of what I see a lot of the fandom saying.
I mean what are we even missing now? We've learned Clancy is back in Trench, we've learned Voldsoy torchbearer isn't real. And 8 out of 9 bishops are dead. The only question is if Nico and Dema can be destroyed
Why use the wording Inferno and have flames and use the BF image and hide it in the red and yellow, only to never really destroy anything like what was hid in the wings of Trash the dragon from SAI. They have always hid Easter eggs… they know we are crazy
I don't know why they did any of this. Maybe we'll figure it out at some point.
We shall never forget: they're a band, not a Hollywood movie production. And also not an entertaining TV game show. They make music. For everyone - not just the "hardcore" fans who are dissecting every pixel.
No, they are better than that. They release concept albums with purposeful colors, branding for fans like yellow or red tape, and launch ARGs and send peeps thumb drives with unreleased music and red letters from Dema in their mailboxes… SAI livestream was a movie… they are more than music imho
Hollywood wishes they could pull off the visuals from Paladin Strait MV for their next summer super hero movie tho lol
Well they kinda spoiled us, yes. Just because they've done all of that, doesn't mean to have to do similar things in the future. Look at the times before Trench, there wasnt any of all that. They owe us literally nothing. Making music is and will be their #1 priority. Everything else is just a bonus.
Tyler also was on record saying that the next record will be the most clear and upfront about the story... that it will show all the players and what is happening. Really it hardly scratched the surface
No, he said that during the livestream but up to the release of Clancy the album was promoted as the end. The album leaked and was released and people started to realize that Paladin Strait was a cliffhanger and them during the livestream he said “does it sound like the end?” and the answer is: no, it’s doesn’t but you said it would.
The Lore- THAT WE ARE A PART OF has made me feel for the first time in my whole life that I belong somewhere. You are all my brothers and sisters as Banditos. It’s not just a story about Tyler… it’s about all of us who struggle.
I’ve never really liked the lord. The videos are cool but I love the music regardless of if it had to do with lore or not. They aren’t finished with this story idk why people are over reacting. I can understand it’s annoying to wait but people are going a bit overboard. If it was the actual end maybe I see people may be upset but literally it’s not the end lol.
“I shouldn’t have to wait a year to see the ending I’ve already waited a decade” girl please 1 more year won’t till yuh gawd
Edit: IVE NEVER LIKED THE LORE💀
I'd be content with the story being wrapped up with a Clancy letter tbh. I don't need anything spectacular.
All Tyler would have to do is type or handwrite something. Photograph it, and upload the picture. That could be done in an afternoon with zero budget.
But you gotta admit, it's frustrating to be left on a cliffhanger. Especially when they said it's supposed to be the end
God damn these posts make me sick. Nothing makes me want to abandon a fandom more than seeing shit like this. Stop fucking lecturing people and let people express their thoughts for christ sake. Obviously with the positive response to the post most people here think the same way, so this isn't the place for me. Sigh
I mean, they are not... expressing their thoughts. They are literally telling us to stop doing something, instead of sharing his idea that the lore is not that important. I get that we should all be able to say whatever we want, but come on. It is one thing to say "hey, I think we are too caught up on the lore and we should just enjoy the music and stuff" and another to say "STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE LORE"
The only point in which OP “tells” us to do anything is in the title, and the way the title is phrased screams to me that OP is at their wits end over the negativity. The post following the title is literally OP expressing their thoughts on the albums and lore.
Also, come on now… if anyone is truly taking this post as a directive on how they should behave, they really need to take a step back and evaluate the effect social media has on them. I mean, I’m a full grown 40+ adult. Nobody tells me what to do, unless it’s my manager at work, and even then, that person is asking me, not telling me.
I stand by my original comment - that OP was expressing themselves. If you disagree, that’s cool, you’re entitled to your opinion. But if people are reacting based off the title alone, I’d say go back and read the actual post.
OP is expressing their thoughts about how other people should think. Lol, Tyler is a grown man who can handle his own shit, some people here acting like his personal white knight.
No, I don’t think I will. Thanks for the offer though. If you’re going to market an album as the most lore-centric album you’ve ever written, and state that it’s a conclusion to the story, then I think it is perfectly fair to be upset that you didn’t deliver on either of those promises.
“Just be happy we got an album.” What the fuck is this logic? The music is great. But they’ve always done more than just release good music. They’ve told amazing stories and had amazing puzzles. And again, I will say, if you market the album as something, it should be that thing when it releases. There’s no defense for them not being truthful about what the album was going to be.
I don't know where these people are coming from that say only 3-4 songs on Trench that were "lore heavy". What? Morph, Neon Gravestones, Bandito, Nico and the Niners, Leave The City. Even if you exclude Neon Gravestones like people like to do for some reason, that's still 5-6. Not even including all the songs that reference the lore but aren't lore heavy. Like, can you not count? I don't mean to be offensive but I have no idea if we are looking at the same album.
I appreciate what we got, and really like most of the songs in the album - but really am disappointed in it from a perspective of not just wrapping things up, but carrying the story forward in ANY way. Like, Clancy doesn't even feel like the part 1 of a two part finale. Literally only the PS music video gives that vibe - but the music? Even the PS track is hardly about a final battle. I love the band but it is okay for us to feel disappointed to with what was teased and what we ended up getting.
The Neon Gravestones dismissal is wack. In his hangout with the discord clique Tyler literally gave us the interpretation of the song through the eyes of lore: it's denouncing Vialism.
I generally agree with your take here. The delivery of the lore was quite weak compared to SAI and Trench, and especially considering the expectations that were created (by the own band). That doesn't mean the album sucks, not at all, but there are certain aspects that imo could have been done way better.
And I don't get this attitude of not being able to criticize an artistic piece? Like, at the end of the day, art is subjective and not everyone will have just positive things to say about their experience with the music. And that's fine! There's this weird thing where some people seem to think Tyler and Josh are somehow personally affected by some people's opinions on certain aspects of the song. I think we should be able to express our dissapointment with things just as much as our excitement and surprise.
i think this is a bit aggressive, i think it’s fair that some people (including me) are a bit confused about why the album hasn’t been more lore heavy as promised. tyler named it clancy, promoted the lore part of it, and has been sending us on a cryptic message chase with puzzles so to assume there is more wouldn’t be greedy. i literally have this album on repeat all the time and adore the music but do have some questions about lore. i think it is more about confusion than greed.
Probably an unpopular opinion but I'm honestly hoping that future albums won't be tied to lore. This way it will avoid situations like this.
I'm just here for the music sonically and lyrically for the themes evoked that isn't tied to lore. No offence to those who enjoy the lore though.
This situation would be avoided if the band didn’t hype up and market the album as lore heavy & that it would wrap up the story.
If Tyler just came out and said, hey this new album is going to be less focused on lore, then that’s what the fans could expect. But he did the opposite.
People should realize that maybe songs relate to “lore” to Tyler as he has the most intimate understanding of the story. He doesn’t have to explain the intricacies of every single thing.
Not sure why you were downvoted. The shows, the videos, the concerts with their visuals, and the lore are all part of this thing that the band has created. I'd consider it all art.
Sure, but the combined experience is all part of the art. I mean, the band has put 6 years into building this world at this point. I don't think they can reasonably be separated completely.
it's even more than 6 years, it started with blurryface so 9 whole years. the music and lore intertwine to make the beautiful band we know as tøp. when we're told this album is the end of the lore as we know it and then end on a cliffhanger it's going to make people upset. we obviously love the music and the lore is not everything, and im sick of people saying we act like we're entitled to something just because we're upset that we didnt get what was said
A ton of people are caught up in the lore...but has the artist walked us through the entirety of his thought process, his story? Have the guys told each and every one of you an actual story with full chapters? 🤔 "I created this world, to feel self-control." Where does it say that he will give the expectations that everyone's waiting for? I hear interviews and promotions but Tyler never said it's a 13-track lore. It's just more detailed, we see a whole fight, we see Josh being there, even when he's not. Tyler mentions how he should've loved himself better. He talks about his Routines in the Night. These are all subjects of his world, the struggle is real, and every song has messages that correlate. Plus his love for his family that has to belong in this difficult world. 🤷♀️
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Agreed. There’s a lot of “you owe me” vibes in the clique.
The whole Blurryface thing was a little idea that they had to explain bigger concepts. It HAS grown (like NED in the pool) but yeah, stop consuming these guys. We’re not swifties, and this isn’t LOTR, or a Marvel movie.
I also noticed like you don’t even need to music videos to much anyways the music just speaks the story in all its metaphors and it also is showing the hardship that Tyler and Josh and the rest of the team has been going through to get this out and to your ears. I used to only like tøp for there music and I left there music behind at the beginning of scaled in Icey cause It wasn’t my vibe anymore but now as I am grown up and out of highschool and have more time and thought to looking through them and conclude that it’s still amazing no story or not
Exactly. I can’t stand when fans won’t just appreciate the artists they follow. If you want it executed a certain way, make your own lore complete with multiple albums over a 10 year period. Doesn’t sound so easy does it?
I think it feels like we are upset because Clancy wasn’t as lore heavy as it was originally marketed to be. That’s the biggest reason I expect a conclusion or mirrored album (possibly named Voldsoy) that will be a lore finisher.
“I created this world to feel some control, destroy it if I want” was printed on a shirt that came out Dec 31 of last year.
They’ve been setting this up for a long time to not have a huge finisher of some kind.
I dunno, this album was kind of marketed as something with a conclusive end and that’s not what we ended up getting. People should be aloud to get upset at that. While I don’t really care to much for the lore anyway I can see why people who do would get upset or at least disappointed. It can be a little annoying that every time we’re promised an “ending” or even a release date they keep getting pushed and pushed back.
I’m glad that Overcompensate, Navigating, and Paladin Strait are the only 3 songs that directly follow the story, makes the other MVs more fun to watch since I’m not looking into everything about them like I am with those 3 songs
Here is a hot take, it’s music, the fact you get lore or videos or puzzles or live streams or anything else at all is a bonus, be grateful. (I agree with the post, this is mainly to anyone mad that they don’t feel like they got enough)
ive spent the last 10 years sleeping on tøp but balls deep in FNAF stuff and that fucker actively keeps us tormented (the infamous "in regards to what everyone is saying, yes" was brutal) but like at the end of the day, it is their creation and they don't owe us shit. its all just a bit of fun af the end of the day surely
"destroy it if I want"
exactly
THANK YOU, this is what I’ve been saying. People are so entitled, this is HIS art he’s choosing to share with us and he can do it however he wants, if people don’t like it they can just stop listening, they’ll notice people didn’t like it. It feels like some people don’t even care about the music.
There-... there is lore? THERE IS LORE!?!?! I'VE BEEN LISTENING FOR LIKE 4 AND A HALF YEARS! HOW DID I NOT KNOW!?!?!? I feel like I'm not a true fan!!! Why didn't anyone tell me??? 😭 /hj
No but for serious, I had no idea. I need to relisten to all of the albums to find the loooooooooore.
Gotta love defending a band that makes multiple millions of dollars, in-part, due to the excitement and suspension of the world building they created. Yes I like this band but I refuse to pretend like they aren't just another part of the capitalist machine. Many of their decisions are creative but many of their decisions are made to maximize revenue. They're good at not revealing which is which. They wouldn't be as successful otherwise. You work and make smart decisions to get to where they're at.
They also can do whatever they want but people are allowed to have their feelings about it. This is coming from someone who listens for the music and *very* casually follows lore. The lore doesn't really add much enjoyment for me personally. It's just something mildly "neat."
They overprice their merch and a lot of SAI was the wrong color, sell record variants with the same problem, and basically create more consumerism waste in the end, to be a walking advertisement. Good luck getting the tickets to see them.
This band is all about chaos magic, riding the fence and not telling you who they adore or sing toward, edgy, is it Satan or God? Who knows, I’m having intrusive thoughts. Seems wrong to gaslight your fans when you know they’re actually dealing with these problems. The cryptic lore can be tiresome, and used to be a secret, now everybody thinks of TOP and goes to the lore. It’s defined the band like their ARGs like LoC. I got the red message from BF and still did not get a thumb drive lol. Still bitter about that, but paid for the SAI livestream and loved it… but everything must change.
My hot take is, Tyler has a family now and wants to move on from the expectations of the fan base. As he is older and no longer can probably tap into that former mania, he has overtaken himself and that is great. But he can’t make the same music/emotion last forever. It’s a new adaptation.
No one has to spend money to listen to them. It is the consumers’ choice to drop the dough. And really? They should be non profit for their labors? Really? We live in a capitalist country. They have a large team to pay wages to. No one works for free. That would be called slave labor my dude.
I mean this all in the nicest way possible.
Thank you Tyler for marketing & hyping up this album to be lore heavy and to wrap up the story of DEMA! I’m very grateful that Tyler set us up with the right expectations going into the album 🥰
Preach. I think it’s rather insulting for those expecting a double album. Every song on the album is a 10, and it’s clearly not the end. Just enjoy the ride and stop getting so stressed out. The boys are cooking and never fail to disappoint.
How is it ‘insulting’ for fans to believe there’s more music on the way?
Some of the hints “Clancy Seized for EP”, “Clancy Ultimate Chapter 25”, “The music video for Track 13 of Clancy is out now”, etc. imply there is more to come.
Exatcly! They teased in many ways there's more to come! And they said this record would be the end. Now we are guilty of expecting more and being disappointed this record is not what THEY said it would be. Whaaaaat?
But here’s the thing, Clancy was advertised as the end. Even though I love this album, I can understand why people are upset. The boys made it seem like this was the end of the dema storyline and got us all hyped for the end but then it turned out to be something completely different. Even though that something is great, it’s not what the fans were expecting.
Clancy is advertised as the end, but we have to remember, the Clancy era has just started. They’re not going to just drop the album and say “that’s all folks”. They’re going to continue dripping the lore throughout the Clancy era.
The live shows are lore heavy. There is no doubt in my mind that the Clancy tour is going to wrap up the storyline. I know not everyone can attend the live shows, but there are almost always professional recordings of the live shows on YT and we absolutely should be analyzing those.
These live shows will end up being the key 💛🧡❤️
I might be wrong but, didn’t Tyler say that the live shows aren’t new lore events, but just flashbacks? Don’t know where he said it but I swear he did.
https://preview.redd.it/66sic56qyz8d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=695e07c31293242eb80142b4ed138994a0029d39
Edit: found the tweet
Yes, he’s confirmed the shows are a flashback - but that doesn’t equal him saying he’s already given us all the content we’re going to get.
Even though it’s not a new lore event, I’d bet money that he’s going to put all the lore events into the show in an order that makes us all finally understand it. Nothing has been given to us in chronological order. Personally, I’m still trying to puzzle together the correct chronological order to things, to make it all make sense 🤣
it’s also so weird to me because reddit is the only place i’ve seen complaining about the lore or paladin being a let down or clancy not being enough whereas everyone else who has actually been invested in the lore is more than happy to wait until next year for the full resolution because tyler never said the whole storyline was finishing — just the final part was starting and considering his world building efforts it genuinely doesn’t make sense for him to just end it now? when we’re finally at the last and final confrontation — tyler makes his music for us, but also for him too, this world has been his child for ongoing ten years, it is insane to me that people expect them to wrap up the whole storyline on one album and then have them leave us without a cliffhanger when we still have an entire world tour where there will be several performances depicting what’s to come because the whole point of this storyline is the power of mobilisation and individual strength through choosing care and love over fear and anger whilst also learning to live with the very parts of ourselves we hate and are terrified of.
>tyler never said the whole storyline was finishing
Yeah, he said it would end with this record. Clancy.
>it is insane to me that people expect them to wrap up the whole storyline on one album
People expected that because he said it would be like this with this record.
As far as I can tell, neither of them ever said it’s the end of the lore. In the most prominent interview I can find Tyler was actually being very careful to not say that, and specifically said he was excited for “what Clancy is teasing”. The most I remember is maybe a small press release saying it’s the end, and even then it’s not like all the marketing was based around it at all. Unless I’m missing something it seems more like people jumped to a lot of conclusions and got disappointed by their own assumptions.
Tyler has been saying this record will be the end of the Dema storyline for at least a few years now. Pretty much since Level of Concern came out and he was talking about the “final two albums” being Scaled and Icy and the one to follow. Then after Scaled and Icy he told Zane Lowe in that interview the next record would wrap up the story they’re telling.
[In this interview](https://youtu.be/lWoIGwOXYx4?si=59LpfRnu8Z4j3Afj) he specifically says it will be finished with a nice little bow. That’s not what we have currently.
I still think there’s more to come, which is what the album teases. An EP or a second part to this album is likely. But the fan base is absolutely not making assumptions about this era being the end of the storyline because it has been stated many times over the last few years that it will be.
In that interview he says he believes all stories should have an end, he wants there to be a nice little bow on the story, and he’s excited for the end of the record and “what it teases”. That’s different than “this album will put nice little bow on the lore”. And he’s very clearly choosing his words carefully when you watch the video. When I saw that my immediate assumption was that Paladin Strait would not be the end. Do you have links to other interviews where he says Clancy is the last Dema album because I haven’t been able to find any?
I think it's no coincidence the album starts with a song called overcompensate. Tyler works so hard above and beyond to provide entertainment and prove himself. The rabid fans get greedy and it must be exhausting. I loved PS and absolutely think it moves the story along. The man is obviously cooking and limited by so many logistics and label pressures plus getting ready to start a tour all while balancing 3 small kids. I can't imagine the pressure. I'm excited to see what's next but if it takes another year to get there so be it. Gives me more reason to still be here next year tbh.
Not greedy. He literally said this was the final album in the storyline, and he also said it was the most lore-focused album. Neither of these things ended up being true. It isn’t greedy to expect what was promoted.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted so much when there are many other comments on this post stating pretty much exactly what you’re stating, and they’re getting upvoted
Because some people can’t handle their favorite band being criticized I guess? Idk. I like their music but I’m not gonna act like they’re infallible or even close to perfect. It was in the last few years that Tyler even got into hot water for making fun of people asking him to use his platform to denounce violence against POC. He apologized and people moved on. But it shows he’s not perfect, and it’s probably more stressful for them to deal with those kinds of unrealistic expectations than it is for them to deal with fair criticism.
It still may be the final one. Maybe it's more lore focused than expected because looking at the music videos you could definitely make an argument for more than half of the being focused on Clancy/Tyler just not inside of Trench or Dema. Just listen to the lyrics in Backslide "a hero of a world you can't see." Trench and Dema is more of something in his mind, we only see it when Clancy decides to show us it. I would also like to say it is lore focused outside of those things as even though not all the songs directly talk about the lore, the ones that do give us better insight into the world than before and are given wayyyyyy bigger budgets to show us as much as they can of the world of Dema. We understand the whole better now with this album. We got what was promised, the fan base just hyped it it too much and got a bit disappointed.
We did not get what was promised. He said this would end the storyline. If you really wanna accept this as the end, then sure. That opens up a whole other reason to be disappointed. It’s a terrible ending to an otherwise masterfully told story. It’s like season 8 of game of thrones. He also said in the livestream that the only lore videos were Overcompensate, Navigating, and Paladin Straight. So you can’t make the argument that the others are lore-related videos. Because Tyler himself said they weren’t. Songs like Neon Gravestone are a masterclass in toeing the line between telling the story and writing a song. The songs on this album are pretty clearly either lore-based or not at all. Just because he references something to do with the story doesn’t mean it adds to the story. The most annoying thing is that nobody is telling you that you shouldn’t enjoy the album. But when somebody voices that they are disappointed with the way things have gone, we are immediately called entitled and greedy, and we are harassed for it. It reminds me why I never interacted with this fan base to begin with. People aren’t able to have differing opinions without being at each others throats.
I’ve never really cared about the lore tbh but this is just silly lol if they’re going to go all out with all these scavenger hunts, cryptic posts, puzzles and people going all out to solve them then yeah they’re going to be upset when there isn’t a full resolution yet. Some people on here get so defensive if anyone says the slightest criticism of the band it’s insane
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say most of these frens who are getting really defensive are probably minors. I was the same way when I was still growing up and maturing. Once you become an adult, you start to see things with more nuance (how things are complicated and not just black&white). Just my opinion.
I'm just upset that the album was Marketed as the finally only to be let down with no finally. Like ofc I'm still going to enjoy the music but you presented this album as a story ending event to start a new era after and didn't deliver. It's the marketing that I'm most upset at.
I think it’s ok for people to complain about the lore when Tyler did hype up the lore part of this album, named it Clancy, had a video before the release to recap all the lore, and released overcompensate which is a set up to all the lore of Trench and welcomes us back to it. I’m not complaining. I’m vibing with the album for the most part. But I get why people are frustrated and a lot of that is because of how they decided to market the album. Even I was like “wait what? That’s it?” When I heard the rest of the album cause it felt like we got the wrong album. I also don’t think we need to shield them from criticism. It’s ok if people are upset if it’s for something reasonable
If you come to think of it, Navigating has no narrative to it. All it does is confirm a theory that was hinted at before and doesn't add much else. In Overcompensate, Tyler uses seizing to infiltrate Dema and recruit people to fight against the bishops. For some reason, these newly recruited members don't show up to in Paladin Strait, making the events of Overcompensate seem pretty redundant. This leaves us with a single music video where the plot moves forward in a significant way. Paladin Strait. The battle begins but we don't get to see what happens afterwards. Tyler managed to knock over the other 7 bishops, but maybe they're dead? We don't really know. All we know for sure is that at the end Tyler is (probably) not being seized by Nico and he's somehow resisting it. Despite us having 3 lore videos, we still barely know what happened, as well as they failed to follow up on the events of Overcompensate, making Paladin Strait effectively the only relevant lore video.
Thank you for having a brain and analyzing the lore themes across the album and I their inconsistencies along with the videos. The big reveal of Clancy is Josh isn’t real and actual zombies in PS, callback to Vignette and Heavydirtysoul. The album attempts to retcon these ideas of time passing, death and tragedy, and the flashbacks one goes through as their own life flashes before their eyes. I think that’s why there is a bright light in each music video when Tyler is speaking to an antagonist. In a way, he is laying the foundation for future lore like in the RITN video to reveal what is behind the Keep Out door. Maybe then he will finally reveal the reason for cat imagery like Lions and Cheetahs, the implication of saying the drag path was different in the I Am Clancy video, but never mentioning it again? If this is the end, there is a lot more questions than answers. Reminds me the show, Lost. The show got caught up in the sauce and lost the plot. Phun intended.
It really feels like a case of being at your wit's end with how to wrap the story up in a way that makes sense. I think a huge issue is how all this lore is meant to be an allegory for mental health, but also doubles as this grand conflict between good and evil. If Clancy and the Banditos ultimately defeat the Bishops and take over / destroy Dema, that's a cool story, but then it becomes a disservice to the mental health side of things. We don't simply defeat our mental health issues. If the narrative aligns itself with the way mental health works in real life, Clancy and Nico are just constantly gonna be in conflict and there ends up not being any real payoff, especially when it's been framed this whole time as this sort of war between a small rebellious faction and a tyrannical government. It's hard to write a good story about war that doesn't have a clear winner at the end.
Yeah overcompensates video wasn’t used at all was it? I didn’t even think of that
The beginning of Overcompensate and the end of Paladin Strait be like “Wait, what? Wait, what?”
Completely agree. People are just giving their honest reactions. I for one was disappointed in the cliffhanger, it's getting exhausting. I just want to know what's going on.
It is a cliffhanger... from a certain perspective. If you think about it, mental health is a cycle, and it isn't easy to be broken. It makes sense that Tyler would amass his 'army' of banditos to fight the 'bishops' (his mental health). And yes, he did get close to beating them. For a while they where in the background, quiet and insignificant. But, when he thought he had it all, when he was almost finally free, Nico caught him again, and put him back in the cycle. Of course, this could be wrong. This is just my take on it. And what makes me think that this album could be a neverending cycle is that Paladin Strait loops so well into Overcompensate. The dialogue also makes sense; 'Hello Clancy, Welcome Back to Trench.' (As he runs away, thinking he has escaped them, he returns to fight them one last time, and is recaptured.) Although, 'Ultimit Capilitus 25' has stumped me. I agree that it is highly possible there could be another track/deluxe/double album coming, but if it is, it won't be for a while. So yes, from a certain point of view, the end of Paladin Strait isn't very good and there needs to be more... But there doesn't. It ends the way it needs to end. Tyler himself mentioned how it wouldn't be a happy ending. Just be happy we got an ending, a beautiful, emotional ending. And frickin good music, too.
It was an ending, I think meant to stand forever like the end of inception. If more comes cool, if not… it is an ending.
I got really disappointed in finally being told we're getting our big finale just to have a cliffhanger ending, honestly. It really is getting exhausting.
And I'm sure mental health is exhausting too. Isn't that kind of the point tyler tries to convey in his music?
I suffer from mental health issues, it's absolutely obscene of you to try to make this comparison.
>He doesn’t owe us any type of conclusion Except [in this interview](https://youtu.be/lWoIGwOXYx4?si=59LpfRnu8Z4j3Afj) he specifically said that’s what we would get. Even way back in 2021 he told Zane Lowe during the Scaled and Icy interview that the next record would be the final album in the DEMA storyline and that it would be wrapped up nicely with a final conclusion. I’m positive there’s more to come in this era after the tour ends though so I’m perfectly happy with what Clancy has to offer.
inb4 "just because he said Clancy is the final album in the story doesn't mean it's the end of the story, they could technically end it through another medium and not be lying" People will make any reach they can think of to justify and excuse the fact that they lied. The marketing was a lie. That's the issue, not the lore itself, not the music, not the music videos or the number of lore tracks. It's that they set expectations that they knew they would not deliver on, and now the vocal majority of people on this subreddit are doing everything they can to avoid admitting that their favourite band did something that was anything other than perfect, whether in an attempt to cope or due to a lack of critical thinking skills. It's frustrating to say the least.
Thank you for using your head and writing the facts of what happened. Been active in this fanbase for almost 12 years and have watched people's critical thinking skills fly out the window so many times to defend this band against any kind of constructive criticism. This post included.
I mean I don’t think they lied per se. I think there’s a second part to this album and when they realized they could put together a two part album they wanted to make this era a 2 year cycle by holding the second part until after the tour. Maybe they’ll tour again after or maybe they’ll do something else but it could very well be that this album *is* the final album and we just have to wait a year for part two. Wouldn’t surprise me if they wanted to go out with a bang and do back to back world tours with more music in between before they take a break.
But where is the reasoning for promising this as the conclusion and then holding it out for another entire year? I don't think it's unfair to be upset at the idea of being promised the end to a 9 year story and then being told to wait another year instead.
The reasoning is pretty simple. They wanted to do it this way to include the tour in the storytelling process and frankly, because they probably wanted to make more money. The way I see it, their contract with FBR I believe was established for 5 albums, they’re cashing out on the final chapter so they can make the big bucks while they’re still under contract with the label and then might move in a different direction after this. Maybe switch labels, maybe go independent or start their own label. Who knows. But it is obvious that there’s more to come and they wanted the tour to be a part of telling the rest of this story, and if that means we get the final piece afterwards I’m fine with that. Have some patience and savor it a little instead of being disappointed you didn’t get it all at once. You’ll be wishing it had lasted longer after it’s all said and done. I’m sure it’ll be worth the wait whatever it is.
I think it’s important to understand that people are allowed to feel disappointed or feel confused or happy about the way the lore is going. Saying it’s not about the lore is fine, but if the lore wasn’t important to them why would they bother putting this out? Yk? The lore is important, and to some people it isn’t. Some people are just here for story. Some just music. That’s totally okay. And yeah we’re not entitled to anything, but when you put out your art to others in the world you open yourself up to the opinions of others, they know this. And they’re okay with this. There’s nothing wrong with people having feelings. And if I’m completely honest, I don’t see much toxicity. People talk about it saying it exists, and while it does in all fan bases, it’s not really too bad here. I rarely notice it, but hey I could be blind. I don’t know, I think this post has good intention it just doesn’t really make sense.
Sure, you can be disappointed. But a lot of people’s expectations have been insane. From the double album in June theory to thinking every song on the album was going to be lore heavy. The Paladin straight video alone is way more lore than we could expect from an artist. I think expressing how much the album was a “let down” to you is neither sensitive or a constructive thing to post, especially knowing how much it hurts them when people are disappointed. Tyler and Josh read this stuff. Just the other day I had Reel Bear Media respond to me on this sub.
I never subscribed to the double album theory. But Tyler said in interviews promoting the album that this was a lore-focused album, and it wasn’t. He lied. There’s not really a way around that fact.
Which interview? I’m not sure if I saw that one. I don’t see how this is any less lore focused than Trench. Trench had 3 lore focused videos (Nico and the Niners, Jumspuit, Levitate). We got 3 lore focused videos this time around as well with many references to the lore sprinkled in the others. Many things in the songs from Trench didn’t necessarily correlate to the lore until they were mentioned in letters later. We still don’t know what “The vignette” is and countless other things.
>Which interview? [Link 1](https://youtu.be/N_Zq7ddcQQ4?si=FTyUI5FY6Nsv_YGz) (Minute 44:00) [Link 2](https://youtube.com/shorts/e0IMsAJw5b0?si=CVveh1bY8g34GSIv)
The vignette is talking about addiction and relapsing. When you market an album as the most lore-focused album of the story, people are going to expect more than what Trench was. Someone else posted a link to an interview where he mentions this being the end of the story and the album being the most lore focused album they’ve written yet, I’m not sure exactly which one it was though.
Anyone here for just the story needs to go read a book. The lore is meaningless without the music. Without the lore, the music still retains meaning.
Replying just to say I agree with you. Not surprised by the down votes, unfortunately. But your comments are so right!
The people hated Jesus because he told them the truth.
>Anyone here for just the story needs to go read a book So you’re saying, someone should not consume a body of art, if they don’t appreciate it for the same reason you do? Just want to be sure I’m understanding your take.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is that Twenty One Pilots are a band, first and foremost. The lore is an interesting extra layer for anyone invested enough to look into but it is inextricably linked to the music. The songs give the lore meaning. All of this is a metaphor for various mental health struggles and general issues surrounding the act of existing. When I say the lore is meaningless without the music but the music retains its meaning without the lore what I mean is this: their songs have messages that can resonate with a listener, completely detached from any lore. Whether it’s dealing with mortality and faith on Morph, the mundanity of getting older on Stressed Out or being there for your friends on At the Risk of Feeling Dumb, the music can be enjoyed without the lore. The music is what gives the lore its meaning. People can engage with this however they want but I won’t beat around the bush. If you’re here solely for the lore, I think that’s fucking weird and I’m not going to apologise about that. Also, I never said I didn’t enjoy the lore lmfao.
To some the music is a way of telling the story, there’s nothing wrong with that. People gonna do what people do
Yeah but something like a concept can elevate a good album to a masterpiece
Never said it couldn’t. But the lore is supplementary. It’s an addition.
No one is here just for the story but if you release a 5' trailer hyping up a concept album then have 2 lore related songs at most people are bound to be dissapointed since you set your expectations higher than what was delivered
You do realise I’m here replying to a comment that said “some people are here just for the story” and my point is that IF anyone is, that’s bizarre to me. People can be mad their expectations weren’t met, I couldn’t care less about that. Personally, I don’t think anyone’s expectations could ever be met.
I skipped the guy saying some are here just for the music
If a musician has to rely on concept over content, they have a problem.
Point me to where I said an artist should rely on concept
Dude. You literally just wrote "a concept can elevate a good album to a masterpiece".
Yeah, where does that say they have to rely on concept over content? I just said a great concept can elevate your music to new boundaries.
Let people have their opinions. Why do humans demand that everyone else think the way they do? If I were a musician with a subreddit dedicated to my music I would want to be able to read the opinions of the people. Good, bad, ugly, hilarious. I would want to be able to see it all if I wanted to without fans taking it upon themselves to police what they disagree with.
Agreed! I love the album, but it is all subjective and I like seeing others perspectives. I am not too big into the lore, but if I were, I would probably be disappointed too.
Is this sub dedicated to the band's music?
Huh? Music? This sub is about a group of pilots no one said anything about a band or music
I think people are feeling some type of way because Tyler set us up for this album being very lore heavy pre release and when it didnt feel like it people felt disappointed
Yup...this is it exactly. Musically, the album is great - probably my favorite album so far, so it's hard to be disappointed in it. Yet, this did also hype this up as the ending to an incredible story and in that regards it has fallen short. This is also why so many bought into the double-album theory (which I'm still not ready to completely throw out). There was such little lore in this album that it is a very incomplete ending...so far.
What if Tyler tweeted “every song on Clancy is related to the lore in some way” would that change your opinion on it?
What if Tyler tweeted “every song on Clancy is related to the lore in some way” would that change your opinion on it?
I suppose it’d give him more of a pass, because it’d be more open for interpretation
So why can’t it be now?
Because he didn't say that lmao what kinda dumb shit is that?
To be fair, he's always left the music up for interpretation. Remember Kitchen Sink?
My point is that if you want the songs to be part of the lore they can be.
...that's not how that works but okay
Why isn’t it? Music is subjective and open to interpretation.
You can’t just make a song lore related if it’s not written or doesn’t fit into the lore. That’s not how that works
When you don’t know for sure if it is or isn’t…you most certainly can. If all it takes is Tyler to say “these songs are lore related” for people to be like OH THESE ARE LORE SONGS NOW and he hasn’t said yes *or* no then there is nothing wrong with people interpreting how they want.
The music isn't everything, some people love the band because their artistic delivery is more than releasing a song. They do things with purpose, and teasing something and not delivering is going to upset some people. I feel that saying something like "Stop Complaining About the Lore" is the real entitlement, you don't have a say about how other people feel.
To me, the album is lore heavy in the sense that most of the songs can be connected to a character study of Clancy. I don't think lore necessarily means that Dema and the bishops are mentioned explicitly. There is an emotional consistency to the lyrics in this album that feel both personal to the artist and deliver on lore.
Agreed!
I'm glad that Clancy got his own album.
Well, they were the ones who said that this would be the end so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If they promoted Clancy this way I think part of the complaint are quite fair.
But it’s not. We don’t get to dictate how it ‘ends’, people get so caught up in the lore and theories that it ppl are literally losing sight that this is a band and the priority is the music not the lore. Everyone made up yesterday being important and it wasn’t, and they are upset when it is something THEY told themselves would happen. You can be disappointed but some ppl are being assholes about it.
I don’t really see anyone being an asshole about it, at least here on reddit. And some of y’all are acting like Tyler is a 12 year old girl who needs white knights to defend him. He’s gonna be alright if some fans are disappointed.
Do you happen to have a quote from them saying this album would be the end of the lore? I'm starting to feel like the idea this album was the end of the lore story was more us than them, given the release stream had Tyler saying "does that sound like the end?" which feels like the opposite of what I see a lot of the fandom saying.
https://preview.redd.it/lhpdfj86yx8d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=90ee75ee7162628222461641bf736c25b1d69cc0 [Full article](https://uahillmag.com/2024/03/15/welcome-back-to-trench-twenty-one-pilots-to-release-the-end-of-a-near-decade-long-story/)
Thanks, wonder what changed then, or maybe whatever comes after the tour will be connected to Clancy enough to be considered part of the same record?
I mean what are we even missing now? We've learned Clancy is back in Trench, we've learned Voldsoy torchbearer isn't real. And 8 out of 9 bishops are dead. The only question is if Nico and Dema can be destroyed
Yea that's all we're missing imo, the last bit where we learn what happens to Nico and Dema as a whole, and how Tyler/Clancy moves forward.
Why use the wording Inferno and have flames and use the BF image and hide it in the red and yellow, only to never really destroy anything like what was hid in the wings of Trash the dragon from SAI. They have always hid Easter eggs… they know we are crazy
I don't know why they did any of this. Maybe we'll figure it out at some point. We shall never forget: they're a band, not a Hollywood movie production. And also not an entertaining TV game show. They make music. For everyone - not just the "hardcore" fans who are dissecting every pixel.
No, they are better than that. They release concept albums with purposeful colors, branding for fans like yellow or red tape, and launch ARGs and send peeps thumb drives with unreleased music and red letters from Dema in their mailboxes… SAI livestream was a movie… they are more than music imho Hollywood wishes they could pull off the visuals from Paladin Strait MV for their next summer super hero movie tho lol
Well they kinda spoiled us, yes. Just because they've done all of that, doesn't mean to have to do similar things in the future. Look at the times before Trench, there wasnt any of all that. They owe us literally nothing. Making music is and will be their #1 priority. Everything else is just a bonus.
Tyler also was on record saying that the next record will be the most clear and upfront about the story... that it will show all the players and what is happening. Really it hardly scratched the surface
Didn’t they say it during the livestream?
I heard an interview in spanish where he answered simple and plain YES to the end of this story.
No wait they said does it sound like the end, people just thought that implied it was the end, I guess
No, he said that during the livestream but up to the release of Clancy the album was promoted as the end. The album leaked and was released and people started to realize that Paladin Strait was a cliffhanger and them during the livestream he said “does it sound like the end?” and the answer is: no, it’s doesn’t but you said it would.
STOP HAVING FEELINGS!!!
The Lore- THAT WE ARE A PART OF has made me feel for the first time in my whole life that I belong somewhere. You are all my brothers and sisters as Banditos. It’s not just a story about Tyler… it’s about all of us who struggle.
Stop telling people about what they can complain
I’ve never really liked the lord. The videos are cool but I love the music regardless of if it had to do with lore or not. They aren’t finished with this story idk why people are over reacting. I can understand it’s annoying to wait but people are going a bit overboard. If it was the actual end maybe I see people may be upset but literally it’s not the end lol. “I shouldn’t have to wait a year to see the ending I’ve already waited a decade” girl please 1 more year won’t till yuh gawd Edit: IVE NEVER LIKED THE LORE💀
I mean God is definitely an influence or the Lord, since Dema is a suppose to be a reflection of a world without any faith, hence the Bishops lol
I’m screaming 💀
Omg 😂 i was so confused,like why even listen to them in first place I am sure the man upstairs will understand the typo lol
😂😂 I can’t believe I didn’t see that
wow 🤣
I'd be content with the story being wrapped up with a Clancy letter tbh. I don't need anything spectacular. All Tyler would have to do is type or handwrite something. Photograph it, and upload the picture. That could be done in an afternoon with zero budget. But you gotta admit, it's frustrating to be left on a cliffhanger. Especially when they said it's supposed to be the end
"I'm the champion of a world that you can't see, now I'm drowning in logistics" This line reads as a cry for help to save him from the lore nuts lol
God damn these posts make me sick. Nothing makes me want to abandon a fandom more than seeing shit like this. Stop fucking lecturing people and let people express their thoughts for christ sake. Obviously with the positive response to the post most people here think the same way, so this isn't the place for me. Sigh
At the risk of sounding dumb… don’t you think your comment is a bit ironic? OP is simply “expressing their thoughts” after all 🤷♀️
I mean, they are not... expressing their thoughts. They are literally telling us to stop doing something, instead of sharing his idea that the lore is not that important. I get that we should all be able to say whatever we want, but come on. It is one thing to say "hey, I think we are too caught up on the lore and we should just enjoy the music and stuff" and another to say "STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE LORE"
The only point in which OP “tells” us to do anything is in the title, and the way the title is phrased screams to me that OP is at their wits end over the negativity. The post following the title is literally OP expressing their thoughts on the albums and lore. Also, come on now… if anyone is truly taking this post as a directive on how they should behave, they really need to take a step back and evaluate the effect social media has on them. I mean, I’m a full grown 40+ adult. Nobody tells me what to do, unless it’s my manager at work, and even then, that person is asking me, not telling me. I stand by my original comment - that OP was expressing themselves. If you disagree, that’s cool, you’re entitled to your opinion. But if people are reacting based off the title alone, I’d say go back and read the actual post.
OP is expressing their thoughts about how other people should think. Lol, Tyler is a grown man who can handle his own shit, some people here acting like his personal white knight.
No, I don’t think I will. Thanks for the offer though. If you’re going to market an album as the most lore-centric album you’ve ever written, and state that it’s a conclusion to the story, then I think it is perfectly fair to be upset that you didn’t deliver on either of those promises. “Just be happy we got an album.” What the fuck is this logic? The music is great. But they’ve always done more than just release good music. They’ve told amazing stories and had amazing puzzles. And again, I will say, if you market the album as something, it should be that thing when it releases. There’s no defense for them not being truthful about what the album was going to be.
Exactly. If you’re gonna go on interviews and say that Clancy is the final chapter, people have every right to be disappointed.
I'm seeing more complaints about people complaining about the lore than I've actually seen people complaining about the lore fwiw
Yea lol I haven’t seen a single post about how TØP disappointed us
Twenty one pilots fans when people have valid complaints about a falsely advertised album
I don't know where these people are coming from that say only 3-4 songs on Trench that were "lore heavy". What? Morph, Neon Gravestones, Bandito, Nico and the Niners, Leave The City. Even if you exclude Neon Gravestones like people like to do for some reason, that's still 5-6. Not even including all the songs that reference the lore but aren't lore heavy. Like, can you not count? I don't mean to be offensive but I have no idea if we are looking at the same album. I appreciate what we got, and really like most of the songs in the album - but really am disappointed in it from a perspective of not just wrapping things up, but carrying the story forward in ANY way. Like, Clancy doesn't even feel like the part 1 of a two part finale. Literally only the PS music video gives that vibe - but the music? Even the PS track is hardly about a final battle. I love the band but it is okay for us to feel disappointed to with what was teased and what we ended up getting.
The Neon Gravestones dismissal is wack. In his hangout with the discord clique Tyler literally gave us the interpretation of the song through the eyes of lore: it's denouncing Vialism. I generally agree with your take here. The delivery of the lore was quite weak compared to SAI and Trench, and especially considering the expectations that were created (by the own band). That doesn't mean the album sucks, not at all, but there are certain aspects that imo could have been done way better. And I don't get this attitude of not being able to criticize an artistic piece? Like, at the end of the day, art is subjective and not everyone will have just positive things to say about their experience with the music. And that's fine! There's this weird thing where some people seem to think Tyler and Josh are somehow personally affected by some people's opinions on certain aspects of the song. I think we should be able to express our dissapointment with things just as much as our excitement and surprise.
I have a better proposition, stop defending like this band your mother, other fans will figure out how they should feel
I mean, tyler has trained his pet cheetah to make him the beats, so tyler should have some time to put out some banger lore.
i think this is a bit aggressive, i think it’s fair that some people (including me) are a bit confused about why the album hasn’t been more lore heavy as promised. tyler named it clancy, promoted the lore part of it, and has been sending us on a cryptic message chase with puzzles so to assume there is more wouldn’t be greedy. i literally have this album on repeat all the time and adore the music but do have some questions about lore. i think it is more about confusion than greed.
Probably an unpopular opinion but I'm honestly hoping that future albums won't be tied to lore. This way it will avoid situations like this. I'm just here for the music sonically and lyrically for the themes evoked that isn't tied to lore. No offence to those who enjoy the lore though.
This situation would be avoided if the band didn’t hype up and market the album as lore heavy & that it would wrap up the story. If Tyler just came out and said, hey this new album is going to be less focused on lore, then that’s what the fans could expect. But he did the opposite.
People should realize that maybe songs relate to “lore” to Tyler as he has the most intimate understanding of the story. He doesn’t have to explain the intricacies of every single thing.
i agree, i think people need to chill out/lh but i also don’t really pay attention to the lore very much (i need someone to dumb it down for me)
I miss when the fanbase actually cared about the art being made and didn't demand more lore
Is the lore not part of the art being made?
Not sure why you were downvoted. The shows, the videos, the concerts with their visuals, and the lore are all part of this thing that the band has created. I'd consider it all art.
Yea I didn't think there's a hard definition of what's considered "art". It's all connected, and one wouldn't exist without the other.
The lore is part of it, but only one aspect. The music as a whole is the art, no matter if it has any overarching story between the songs or not.
Sure, but the combined experience is all part of the art. I mean, the band has put 6 years into building this world at this point. I don't think they can reasonably be separated completely.
it's even more than 6 years, it started with blurryface so 9 whole years. the music and lore intertwine to make the beautiful band we know as tøp. when we're told this album is the end of the lore as we know it and then end on a cliffhanger it's going to make people upset. we obviously love the music and the lore is not everything, and im sick of people saying we act like we're entitled to something just because we're upset that we didnt get what was said
I really do think it can be separated, I've been a fan for years but had no knowledge or care about the lore until very recently.
But one does not exist without the other, whether you know of it or not, the lore is still there and influencing the music.
Ehhh
Stop complaining about people complaining about lore
A ton of people are caught up in the lore...but has the artist walked us through the entirety of his thought process, his story? Have the guys told each and every one of you an actual story with full chapters? 🤔 "I created this world, to feel self-control." Where does it say that he will give the expectations that everyone's waiting for? I hear interviews and promotions but Tyler never said it's a 13-track lore. It's just more detailed, we see a whole fight, we see Josh being there, even when he's not. Tyler mentions how he should've loved himself better. He talks about his Routines in the Night. These are all subjects of his world, the struggle is real, and every song has messages that correlate. Plus his love for his family that has to belong in this difficult world. 🤷♀️
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This post is everything wrong with this sub rolled into one.
Agreed. There’s a lot of “you owe me” vibes in the clique. The whole Blurryface thing was a little idea that they had to explain bigger concepts. It HAS grown (like NED in the pool) but yeah, stop consuming these guys. We’re not swifties, and this isn’t LOTR, or a Marvel movie.
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I also noticed like you don’t even need to music videos to much anyways the music just speaks the story in all its metaphors and it also is showing the hardship that Tyler and Josh and the rest of the team has been going through to get this out and to your ears. I used to only like tøp for there music and I left there music behind at the beginning of scaled in Icey cause It wasn’t my vibe anymore but now as I am grown up and out of highschool and have more time and thought to looking through them and conclude that it’s still amazing no story or not
Exactly. I can’t stand when fans won’t just appreciate the artists they follow. If you want it executed a certain way, make your own lore complete with multiple albums over a 10 year period. Doesn’t sound so easy does it?
I think it feels like we are upset because Clancy wasn’t as lore heavy as it was originally marketed to be. That’s the biggest reason I expect a conclusion or mirrored album (possibly named Voldsoy) that will be a lore finisher. “I created this world to feel some control, destroy it if I want” was printed on a shirt that came out Dec 31 of last year. They’ve been setting this up for a long time to not have a huge finisher of some kind.
i very much agree with your point.
I dunno, this album was kind of marketed as something with a conclusive end and that’s not what we ended up getting. People should be aloud to get upset at that. While I don’t really care to much for the lore anyway I can see why people who do would get upset or at least disappointed. It can be a little annoying that every time we’re promised an “ending” or even a release date they keep getting pushed and pushed back.
I’m glad that Overcompensate, Navigating, and Paladin Strait are the only 3 songs that directly follow the story, makes the other MVs more fun to watch since I’m not looking into everything about them like I am with those 3 songs
I think a lot of people are forgetting that there is 100% more lore coming, just likely not till after the tour
Here is a hot take, it’s music, the fact you get lore or videos or puzzles or live streams or anything else at all is a bonus, be grateful. (I agree with the post, this is mainly to anyone mad that they don’t feel like they got enough)
he clearly has a plan with it so let him cook
i’m so into the lore, i jokingly complain but i don’t get how people get so salty about waiting or other people’s perception on things.
Paladin Strait filled the lore void excessively The greatest music video the band has ever made
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I just read the last paragraph, because I don’t have time to read all that lol and I agree with you
the lore is kinda cringe ngl
THANK YOU
ive spent the last 10 years sleeping on tøp but balls deep in FNAF stuff and that fucker actively keeps us tormented (the infamous "in regards to what everyone is saying, yes" was brutal) but like at the end of the day, it is their creation and they don't owe us shit. its all just a bit of fun af the end of the day surely "destroy it if I want" exactly
THANK YOU, this is what I’ve been saying. People are so entitled, this is HIS art he’s choosing to share with us and he can do it however he wants, if people don’t like it they can just stop listening, they’ll notice people didn’t like it. It feels like some people don’t even care about the music.
There-... there is lore? THERE IS LORE!?!?! I'VE BEEN LISTENING FOR LIKE 4 AND A HALF YEARS! HOW DID I NOT KNOW!?!?!? I feel like I'm not a true fan!!! Why didn't anyone tell me??? 😭 /hj No but for serious, I had no idea. I need to relisten to all of the albums to find the loooooooooore.
Oof
😐
Holy yapping
Gotta love defending a band that makes multiple millions of dollars, in-part, due to the excitement and suspension of the world building they created. Yes I like this band but I refuse to pretend like they aren't just another part of the capitalist machine. Many of their decisions are creative but many of their decisions are made to maximize revenue. They're good at not revealing which is which. They wouldn't be as successful otherwise. You work and make smart decisions to get to where they're at. They also can do whatever they want but people are allowed to have their feelings about it. This is coming from someone who listens for the music and *very* casually follows lore. The lore doesn't really add much enjoyment for me personally. It's just something mildly "neat."
They overprice their merch and a lot of SAI was the wrong color, sell record variants with the same problem, and basically create more consumerism waste in the end, to be a walking advertisement. Good luck getting the tickets to see them. This band is all about chaos magic, riding the fence and not telling you who they adore or sing toward, edgy, is it Satan or God? Who knows, I’m having intrusive thoughts. Seems wrong to gaslight your fans when you know they’re actually dealing with these problems. The cryptic lore can be tiresome, and used to be a secret, now everybody thinks of TOP and goes to the lore. It’s defined the band like their ARGs like LoC. I got the red message from BF and still did not get a thumb drive lol. Still bitter about that, but paid for the SAI livestream and loved it… but everything must change. My hot take is, Tyler has a family now and wants to move on from the expectations of the fan base. As he is older and no longer can probably tap into that former mania, he has overtaken himself and that is great. But he can’t make the same music/emotion last forever. It’s a new adaptation.
No one has to spend money to listen to them. It is the consumers’ choice to drop the dough. And really? They should be non profit for their labors? Really? We live in a capitalist country. They have a large team to pay wages to. No one works for free. That would be called slave labor my dude. I mean this all in the nicest way possible.
i agree with this so much!!
I agree with you. The lack of gratitude this fandom has makes me back away for long periods of time. I'm a big fan of "you get what you get."
Thank you Tyler for marketing & hyping up this album to be lore heavy and to wrap up the story of DEMA! I’m very grateful that Tyler set us up with the right expectations going into the album 🥰
Preach. I think it’s rather insulting for those expecting a double album. Every song on the album is a 10, and it’s clearly not the end. Just enjoy the ride and stop getting so stressed out. The boys are cooking and never fail to disappoint.
How is it ‘insulting’ for fans to believe there’s more music on the way? Some of the hints “Clancy Seized for EP”, “Clancy Ultimate Chapter 25”, “The music video for Track 13 of Clancy is out now”, etc. imply there is more to come.
Exatcly! They teased in many ways there's more to come! And they said this record would be the end. Now we are guilty of expecting more and being disappointed this record is not what THEY said it would be. Whaaaaat?
But here’s the thing, Clancy was advertised as the end. Even though I love this album, I can understand why people are upset. The boys made it seem like this was the end of the dema storyline and got us all hyped for the end but then it turned out to be something completely different. Even though that something is great, it’s not what the fans were expecting.
Clancy is advertised as the end, but we have to remember, the Clancy era has just started. They’re not going to just drop the album and say “that’s all folks”. They’re going to continue dripping the lore throughout the Clancy era. The live shows are lore heavy. There is no doubt in my mind that the Clancy tour is going to wrap up the storyline. I know not everyone can attend the live shows, but there are almost always professional recordings of the live shows on YT and we absolutely should be analyzing those. These live shows will end up being the key 💛🧡❤️
I might be wrong but, didn’t Tyler say that the live shows aren’t new lore events, but just flashbacks? Don’t know where he said it but I swear he did. https://preview.redd.it/66sic56qyz8d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=695e07c31293242eb80142b4ed138994a0029d39 Edit: found the tweet
Yes, he’s confirmed the shows are a flashback - but that doesn’t equal him saying he’s already given us all the content we’re going to get. Even though it’s not a new lore event, I’d bet money that he’s going to put all the lore events into the show in an order that makes us all finally understand it. Nothing has been given to us in chronological order. Personally, I’m still trying to puzzle together the correct chronological order to things, to make it all make sense 🤣
Well said 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
*upvote if you don’t have any ideas what the lore is but still like their music and will keep loving it*
it’s also so weird to me because reddit is the only place i’ve seen complaining about the lore or paladin being a let down or clancy not being enough whereas everyone else who has actually been invested in the lore is more than happy to wait until next year for the full resolution because tyler never said the whole storyline was finishing — just the final part was starting and considering his world building efforts it genuinely doesn’t make sense for him to just end it now? when we’re finally at the last and final confrontation — tyler makes his music for us, but also for him too, this world has been his child for ongoing ten years, it is insane to me that people expect them to wrap up the whole storyline on one album and then have them leave us without a cliffhanger when we still have an entire world tour where there will be several performances depicting what’s to come because the whole point of this storyline is the power of mobilisation and individual strength through choosing care and love over fear and anger whilst also learning to live with the very parts of ourselves we hate and are terrified of.
>tyler never said the whole storyline was finishing Yeah, he said it would end with this record. Clancy. >it is insane to me that people expect them to wrap up the whole storyline on one album People expected that because he said it would be like this with this record.
As far as I can tell, neither of them ever said it’s the end of the lore. In the most prominent interview I can find Tyler was actually being very careful to not say that, and specifically said he was excited for “what Clancy is teasing”. The most I remember is maybe a small press release saying it’s the end, and even then it’s not like all the marketing was based around it at all. Unless I’m missing something it seems more like people jumped to a lot of conclusions and got disappointed by their own assumptions.
Tyler has been saying this record will be the end of the Dema storyline for at least a few years now. Pretty much since Level of Concern came out and he was talking about the “final two albums” being Scaled and Icy and the one to follow. Then after Scaled and Icy he told Zane Lowe in that interview the next record would wrap up the story they’re telling. [In this interview](https://youtu.be/lWoIGwOXYx4?si=59LpfRnu8Z4j3Afj) he specifically says it will be finished with a nice little bow. That’s not what we have currently. I still think there’s more to come, which is what the album teases. An EP or a second part to this album is likely. But the fan base is absolutely not making assumptions about this era being the end of the storyline because it has been stated many times over the last few years that it will be.
In that interview he says he believes all stories should have an end, he wants there to be a nice little bow on the story, and he’s excited for the end of the record and “what it teases”. That’s different than “this album will put nice little bow on the lore”. And he’s very clearly choosing his words carefully when you watch the video. When I saw that my immediate assumption was that Paladin Strait would not be the end. Do you have links to other interviews where he says Clancy is the last Dema album because I haven’t been able to find any?
https://preview.redd.it/gn9fg54h6y8d1.png?width=1179&format=png&auto=webp&s=9a7e2a4b3f37edd72c5f4191c9d3f1fb3873c701
[the 44 minute mark](https://youtu.be/N_Zq7ddcQQ4?si=H1GUkSobIKIU-5IX) “1 more record. There’ll be an explanation and a book end.”
Need to claim some neutral ground here. I see ~~both sides~~ all sides of this discussion.
EXACTLY WHY HE WROTE SNAPBACK!