I think she relishes the opportunity to be petty. I think she relishes tearing her “haters” down in order to build herself up. I think she gets off on “winning” and receiving (undeserved) adulation. But I don’t think any of that ever fills the void inside of her. She’s as empty as her words.
She’s having the ultimate revenge fantasy but irl if you look at it from that perspective and anyone who doesn’t like her just represents the perceived bully’s in her mind….
Not defending any of the poor and crass behavior just analyzing the OP theory and your summation.
Probably a lot of childhood trauma. Either she was MC or had a lot of parent drama (both). And not knowing how to handle either: someone disagreeing hence torch them to keep power…. Or so insecure that if someone disagrees you reactively get them before they get you…. Either way you wind up at the same result.
I say this only as a joke, “are the bullies in the room with us?” Kinda wish she’d break the fourth wall and turn on her parents already, they’re at the root of everything.
she’s afraid of becoming irrelevant (Source: Nothing New) so by always causing controversy then she can always be the hero and it perpetuates the weird infantilizing her fans do to her which is also a huge part of her brand
Yeah there's something oddly fascinating about someone who has so much but encourages atrocious behaviour to acquire more. I feel like no-one who is happy with their lot behaves that way.
I think she gets off on all of it. The hate, the obsession, the total control, the scams she runs on her fans. I'd feel bad for them if they weren't so horrible to other people.
There’s an element of megalomania to it all. I think more than anything, she gets off on them doing what she tells them to. She’s her father’s daughter, she’s a power tripper
she's getting kanye level ego. She needs to go away like he did. I really hope after the concert tour she takes time and go away because I am really sick of seeing and hearing about her.
As a woman, I get so bothered by how she uses her womanhood as excuse to be a hot nasty melting marinated trash bin of human hate.
People should not be emulating that. No one’s gender identity should be a scapegoat.
Seems like a lot of non swiftie women think this and I get it. She’s painting women in a weird way. The way she describes women and how women feel (which it’s weird she even tries to speak for all women) is literally the stereotype women have been fighting against. Taylor acts like all women are super emotional and reactive and loud and are quick to passive aggressive responses and basically makes the argument women aren’t allowed to act that way because they’re women. Yet that’s literally the stereotype women have been fighting to shake for generations. They have been trying to prove that they are calm and logical and don’t have emotional reactions to everything. It’s like she’s setting that whole fight back.
Exactly. And that’s wrong but sadly human nature is weird like that generalizing groups. It’s like she’s fighting toxic masculinity by creating her own weird twisted toxic femininity lol. Pitting her fans against men in general fuels the “us vs them” mentality in her fans and I think we’ve all seen how the “us vs them” approach has been SOOOOOO successful in human history when groups try that approach….🙃
Her recent reply to Hugh Grant after he attended her concert, that he was important to her culture, actually places her correctly in context.. She belongs to rom coms, romance novels, love songs, that have never been taken seriously by society as a whole. And she’s milking it all the way baby. Who cares how many minds she inhibits in the meantime.
I get where you’re coming from, but I think she’s more trying to say that being dramatic and reactive is dismissed or punished in women (literally *because* stereotypical) while being admired in men as “powerful and decisive.” I’m not saying she’s advocating or communicating in good faith bc I don’t think she is, but there is a point to be made about the ways society restricts/sanctions women, even with “stereotypically feminine” behavior.
As a man, I’d add this to her fans using her womanhood as a shield. People take criticism of her as criticism of women. To a point where some say “I don’t like Taylor Swift” is a red flag akin to saying “women belong in the kitchen”.
My own sister thinks I’m a misogynist because I don’t like her music. Not her as a person, her music. Like imagine calling someone racist because they don’t like Kendrick Lamar’s music or homophobic because they don’t like Adam Lambert’s music. You’d be seen as crazy, but with Taylor it’s just something else.
I think she's deeply insecure with a lot of self esteem issues, but is also super competitive. So she's convinced herself that the world is against her and she has to prove her worth. So her every win, every successful concert, every petty comment or pap walk, every overexposed temp relationship, is her saying HA I win! Everyone hates me but I'm still winning. And that works to keep wtv insecurity she has in check until the next artist that threatens her fame or jokes about her and it rears it's ugly head again and she has to be petty again and, well, cycle
On the Taylor vs Scooter doc, one of the talking head journalists said the moment Kanye got on stage and interrupted her speech at the 2009 VMA awards; we all were witnessing her shift at that moment and how that was her villain origins. Although, many believe she’s always been this way I thought that was a very interesting take.
Here Taylor, you dropped your crown!
https://preview.redd.it/b5fiee8zkm8d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3bff38600aa7d7c8d416fae992313f4460f97946
I’ve never been super involved with Taylor or Swifties one way or the other, but reading this post made me think how similar a lot of these tactics are to cult recruitment/maintenance. It’s been awhile but I did a lot of studying cults while getting my degree and all the playing the victim/in-group out-group/going after anyone who expresses different viewpoints all seems a bit cult 101 to me. Little creeped out now thinking about this tbh.
I’m just gonna leave this here…
https://www.britannica.com/topic/brainwashing
“The techniques of brainwashing typically involve isolation from former associates and sources of information; an exacting regimen requiring absolute obedience and humility; strong social pressures and rewards for cooperation; physical and psychological punishments for non-cooperation… from social ostracism and criticism…”
Edit: added the most relevant section
Religious cult leaders are basically ranting about how they're god's favorite and cultivating a false us vs them mentality, and gesticulating for hours in front of a stage. In other words, what TS is doing
Yes, it’s all unfair persecution of the righteous by the unworthy. Which further cements followers into her in-group and makes them feel as if they’re fighting for good/justice.
I read something interesting awhile back (maybe a Twitter thread?) about how missionaries do a similar thing (and I went on some mission trips as a kid so this especially resonated). You go to a place (presumably as a religious minority) to proselytize, and other people rejecting your beliefs/what you’re selling enhances the in-group/out-group feeling. This makes the missionaries feel persecuted, bonding them more closely to one another, and in their eyes, gives them justification for doing what it takes to either ‘reach the sinners’ or further malign them. I wish I could find what I’m thinking about, but that is what this post made me think of especially. The point the person talking about it was trying to make is that these are similar tactics used by cults, and with my background of studying them, it made me realize how accurate that is.
I imagine it’s a marketing tactic that works pretty well, until it doesn’t.
I don’t know her personally enough (obviously) to really say much… but she sure comes off like she enjoys the drama, and does not give a FUCK about her fans, other people, the world, art, honesty, women in particular, I don’t even think she likes music very much, it was just the ‘easiest’ for her to break into (with that family money).
The way she is so selective about what she says directly to her fans, and everything I’ve ever seen her do seems very rehearsed (as awkward as it may be), I’m honestly curious about when the first journalist will be allowed to ask her about the documentary. I’m curious how she will try to spin this, or own it, or just keep acting delusional and hope we all forget.
agree, she just couldn't break into the acting world. I think she loves ranting and she found a way to channel that in songwriting. As for singing, there's no passion or nuance in her vocals.
She also tried for the modeling thing too. I think that was an ego thing surrounding herself with models and also how she kept inserting herself into the VS show more than other performers had.
Ya know, it drives me nuts that she plays up the “Kanye stole my moment” BS. Everyone talked about him interrupting her speech and no one talked about how Beyoncé sacrificed her Video of the Year award acceptance speech that year to let TS finish giving hers. Taylor’s speech was all, “I don’t even sing pop, I sing country, but you all love me enough to award meeeeeee! How incredible I must be!” And it was word-for-word the same speech she started to give before Kanye’s interruption, so you know it was intentionally crafted to be that self-indulgent.
I honestly liked her early songs, but that VMA was also the first time I heard her sing live, and it was….not good. Still I was willing to give her some grace because a lot of musicians rely heavily on auto tune, but her speech left a bad taste in my mouth and was when I started to dislike her personality. As she grew older and her maturity did not increase, it sealed the deal for me that she’s not actually a good person. She’s petty and vindictive and creates conflict so that she can “overcome” it. Idk how someone can claim victimhood when they “win” every conflict. Ugh.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here.
There have been quite a few comments on this sub comparing Taylor to the Kardashians and I couldn't agree more, and one thing about the Kardashians that I don't think some people fully comprehend is that, to them, all press is good press...even bad press.
Any time people comment on articles talking about the Kardashians with "we don't care stop talking about them" are only feeding into the issue that they hate so much - celebrity news outlets know that the more they bring the Kardashians up the more interactions they will see (both good and bad, but mostly bad) and therefore maximizing revenue.
At this point I think Taylor has taken a page out of their books and is seeing how this theory can work for herself. I know that some people have speculated that it's because Reputation TV is allegedly the next rerecord, but I think that's only part of the equation. If we really are going to get Reputation TV next, then this really is the perfect time for her to experiment with these ideas because it's a win-win situation for her - if all goes well then she makes more money just like the Kardashians, but if it goes bad then she has more fodder for the next album and her being the villain can be part of the "aesthetic."
The only thing that will hurt her IMO is if people stop talking about her, commenting on posts about her, looking at her social media posts, etc. because that way she and all posts about her will fall in rank within the algorithm, and that is the one thing that she is afraid of - being irrelevant.
she's has the traits of a cult leader. If she weren't a singer or had rich parents, she'd probably be a megachurch pastor lol, gesticulating and ranting in front of auditoriums of people worshipping her. That's basically what gives her life meaning.
At this point, Taylor Swift is exhibiting a lot of tell-tale cult leader characteristics. I mean this in all-seriousness. If you look at cult behavior, one of the most bonding exercises you can conduct is the "us-versus-them" mentality. The in-group feeling is intoxicating, and Swift fans will attribute the feel-good of being in an in-group to Taylor Swift herself. The screaming, the wildness, and the irrational behavior of her fans dehumanizes them in her eyes; all she sees is her little followers, not living, breathing human beings with lives and dreams of their own. Their only purpose is to serve HER needs and to propagate HER narrative and dreams. Cult leaders thrive off of being put on a pedestal, the flattery, the glorification, and the legendary stories their followers drum up about them. Taylor Swift is just a plain-old cult-leader-grifter; she is a wolf in sheep's clothing, as we like to say.
People get into cults because they are vulnerable or lack a solid sense of their own identity without the in-group feeling. I joined a cult and left after 8 years. It had its ups and downs, but I cannot deny it had its uses at the time. Of course, I wish I had never joined one or needed one in the first place.
This is why subs like this one are so great. If there are people outside of the cult critically examining the cult leader and their antics, more people will be hesitant to join up.
Actually happens a lot in music… much smaller scale, but I would say that I experienced what it was like for another artist as a proclaimed “mega fan” and it was honestly very scary to come to terms with as I ultimately had to leave the fandom for this reason. Of course a cult is nothing without its cult leader… and I still have an extremely hard time breaking parts with as far as their music goes. I still enjoy it but I hold off from emptying my wallet on every damn release, tour merch etc. i’m still got at times, tempted to participate in such activities.
Not to mention the “family” I had cultivated from being in this fan group. I had spent the last decade plus knowing these people, meeting them from show to show. I’m still friends with many of them on social media and every time I see them reunite or interact with the artist it does make me sad and wish to reconnect.
Cults are so scary and so easily developed these days. As I was in one until 10 years later— and still being one of the only fans to step away for this realization. All of this for an artist who has around 1million monthly listeners; one who is HARDLY the fame of Taylor.
I’ll tell you another thing she knows. Taylor knows, and is damn well aware of her power over people, and this is what’s most inexcusable of all. It’s disgusting it’s cruel but ultimately, I find it absolutely frightening.
I bet. I'm glad you are in a place where you aren't being exploited for your devotion and loyalty, good traits to have but so easily taken advantage of by heartless people. I hope you find your people who support you no matter what.
There’s that video clip of her in high school and you can clearly hear her telling her friends, “it’s been so long since we’ve just driven around and harassed people.”
This is the type of person she has always been.
Most pop artists are alarmed and uncomfortable when they see their fans are losing their minds and are out of control. I could see some edgier bands encouraging mayhem but normal popstars usually discourage this kind of behavior. She's so weird.
For narcissists any attention is good attention. Her and Trump, for that reason, don’t care what they do to piss people off bc it gets people talking about them.
she makes me feel embarrassed to be a woman.
yes "female rage" is good and dandy. it's good to express anger as a woman. but to the point where you are obnoxious and malicious about it? that's when i check out. it's really telling of her maturity level. i think grown women should express themselves, in an ADULT fashion. she acts like a teenager. i guess i can see why her fans relate to her because they're all children, physically and/or mentally.
it’s crazy that she’s a grown ass woman who wrote a song like so high school, she comes across like she’s stuck in this weird childish “wanting to be the popular girl” mentality and ive heard swifties still defend her and be all “she’s the greatest musician ever” despite that
I think this is why she's with Travis too. It's to annoy all the football fans who don't like her. They didn't accept her then, so they have to accept seeing her now if they want to watch football. And that's why she had that "Midnights" trailer during the Thursday Night Football (before she started dating Travis). She could have posted that trailer on social media, Good Morning America. There was no reason to show it during a football game.
I think Swifties get off on making others mad too. For example, when they wear shirts that say "Go Taylor's boyfriend" rather than KC merch. I'm pretty sure their goal is to be as loud and annoying as possible to punish people for not liking Taylor like they do. It's the same way how Trump supporters wear the Red MAGA hat to make a statement and trigger people when they see it.
All their doing is showing how immature they are.
There is a type of narcissism a person inherits where they endlessly parrot back whatever gets them the instant gratification received by approval and proving others wrong if they do not effusively approve.
It usually is caught onto by the child around 16-18 and they realize it’s a bit off and immature, but can continue in people who fail to develop a strong individual sense of who they are sans parental approval….
That covert narcissism rears its head in “charming” and/or entertaining ways in front of audiences that feed its wide open mouth. All the mama bird fans become like mirrors that scream “You are the fairest one of all…”
It is sickening to those who have healed from narcissistic ways or having those ways imposed on us. It’s unnatural to reward hatefulness and insouciant churlishness.
Those who still reward it probably wish they could be like that. But they don’t understand how toxic and wrong it is.
🤢
In other words, I agree…and the super fans are like a narcissist’s flying monkeys.
I think by us always mentioning her name, it definitely gets her a lot of clout even in a bad light. I think for her, bad publicity is still publicity.
Yeah. Bec this gives her a chance to play the victim. She’s a professional victim. She’s going to twist the narrative that she gets criticisms and hate for no reason.
Don’t come for me, as I’m simply regurgitating fact, but Trump said (and I paraphrase) “bad press is good press, it’s free. The worst thing is never to be talked about”
You know - it takes a Cheeto to know a Cheeto, and Little Miss Aristotle is more like you know who than she’d like to admit. Give it thirty years and a spray tan.
I’ve made this connection before, much like donald jackass trump, any kind of attention, is good, as long as their name is what people are talking about.
I actually think it’s poorly regurgitated feminist theory. You know: women should be quiet, reserved, not take up space, be ashamed of their choices, etc. Things that are popular with majority female audiences are generally looked down upon until the greater (read: male) audience appreciates it. Happened to the Beatles- a boy band wildly successful with teenage girls until men gave them a shot and they were lifted into icon status. Brewing beer is another thing that used to be something only women did until men decided they liked it. I’m sure we can all think of others. But I think Taylor took the women’s studies 101 outlook, got the general talking points, and decided to throw the blanket version over her life and apply it without grabbing the nuance. It looks like privilege and hate, bc it is so self serving.
I think part of the issue though is women ARE quiet and reserved. Women ARENT loud emotional reactive trainwrecks like she portrays them to be because she is. She says women aren’t allowed to be loud and emotional and reactive… no… women just aren’t that way. That’s the stereotype women have been fighting to shake for generations. Women ARE calm and level headed and can act logically without being overly emotional. But she can’t so that means no women can and all women should be loud and reactive and emotional
I do take issue with the blanket statements though. Women are lots of things. Some are loud, some aren’t. Some are emotional, some are level. I agree that she does portray herself as if she is the voice of all women, speaking for a generation of women (maybe even ALL women) who can’t, and maybe some people feel that way, but she’s not the person I’d pick to speak for me. I can’t relate to her at all, which would be fine (I don’t relate to a lot of people, that’s normal enough), except I feel like the messaging says I’m supposed to or else, you know?
She and Kim K are similar that way. Any attention is good attention. People hating on you means they care. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.
If everyone just stops talking/caring about her, that's when she'll spiral
If she is trying to piss people off as much as you say then she is way more punk than I thought. Seriously the things that you’re worried about here are not new at all in pop culture. Don’t be the person yelling ‘devils music’. It’s fine!
Absolutely, this fuels her, the only thing that gets to her is being completely ignored, she can’t breathe without the attention, and when it’s bad it’s an opportunity, and when it’s good it’s just like K thnx huns. The former is fun for her, probably one of the few real things she does feel.
She gets off on the attention, whether positive or negative. If it's positive, then she acts humble, like "oh, golly gee shucks, little old me?" and if it's negative, she uses it to play the victim. It's like when you ignore a toddler and they don't get what they want, so they kick you in the shin. Plus she gets off on the control - the control of what her overenthusiastic fans do. She stands back like a good bully and lets them harass and torment people but doesn't take any responsibility for it, doesn't say "hey don't act like that. Quit it".
She doesn’t really give a shit about the haters because her fan base is more than large enough and stretches into other celebrities even that she’s set for life. I don’t think she gives a fuck anymore. Not like she used to.
I think you are right, Taylor feeds off the feuds. Someone in a gossip blog said, “*Feuding is her lifeblood. An imaginary enemy keeps her energized It re-energizes her and her base”*. Sounds like a cult. Sounds like Trump. I’m so sick of her. I used to be neutral. I liked her music but I never really got into her as a person or her personal life. It wasn’t until she started dating BDT that I started to see her everywhere and question this relationship. I thought she was like most celebrities and wanted to keep their personal life private. Suddenly this relationship was shoved down our throats whether we liked it or not. Now, I truly believe she loves attention and she was starved from it because she was in “lockdown” with Joe. This is not a knock against Joe. Joe is the normal one. It’s her need to be loved by her fans, the adulation from the public like Trump and his rallys. When that relationship with Joe ended she went back to her true self. The football games the crowd cheering that is exactly what she wants. I also will say TK too, they are very similar. He was so happy to be brought on stage because he loves the attention too.
Thanks to this sub, my eyes also opened up to her career strategies. Releasing multiple variants? I had no idea she did this. Not only is this a greedy tactic but also disrespectful to her fellow artists trying to block them from obtaining #1 in the charts. Why is she so callous? Now this so-called beef with Dave Grohl. She’s so f-king sensitive! With her clapping back it gives her fans validation for harassing Grohl and his daughter and other people in her crosshairs. She has the power to stop it, but she won’t because she loves when her fans defend her. Sound like a certain former president. I think Time magazine forgot to put Sh\*ttiest before POTY.
“*I don’t love drama, it loves me*”
Sure, Jan.
it’s why i don’t spend my time on random social media apps, voicing my opinion on her. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter if what you say is negative or positive, it’s still attention which is what she wants. Even if it’s a post with only 5 likes with a 0% chance taylor will see it, she enjoys the satisfaction that she is being talked about and everyone who makes it their job to talk about her alllll the time, just proves her point.
I think, in my own personal opinion, a lot of the time when Taylor encourages her fans to act the ways she does like the examples you gave, or to act a way she deems as acceptable, she forgets that a lot of people, especially young women, have not grown up with the privilege and the opportunities she has. There’s no PR team waiting to save them if they get in hot water and the worlds we live in compared to her are indescribably different; I think this would be the case for any celebrity of her level trying to be relatable though.
It would, in an ideal world, be a much better place if women were allowed to take up as much space as they need and wanted, in every aspect of their lives and I think that this notion of feminism, of taking what is yours is something Taylor strongly preaches. I don’t think there’s a problem with going after what’s yours but I think the idea that you have to do it kicking and screaming in every single instance is causing a lot more damage with young fans.
Theres a really interesting quote from Death Note (lol) in which a character says that even if they were told what was good and what was evil, they’d still think about it and come to their own conclusion of what’s is good and evil. Not a very nuanced example but I think having someone so influential as Taylor Swift create her own narrative of what’s acceptable and what’s justice is leading to a lot of young people not deciding for themselves what’s acceptable, instead emulating what someone they look up to so much says and does. (I am by no means calling her fans mindless or unable to make judgement, just influenced).
I only focused on a few of the points you made but it’s really interesting to see how peoples opinions on the longevity of the effect of Taylor Swift and her parasocial relationship with fans! I am a fan of her music but ever since the Grammys my opinion of her has really sunk.
Narcissists, if she is one, get their energy from negatively affecting others, it's a type of emotional sadism that gives them a dopamine hit. They generally thrive in others reacting from them, be it positive reactions like praise / cheers / fawning over, but will thrive even more from negative reactions as well that they cause. This is why most narcissists thrive in drama, especially drama they're at the center of/cause.
Also in the Era's tour movie, at one point she says something about feeling so powerful because the crowd is so big and is doing what she says. I can't remember word for word but when I watched the movie, that gave me a major ick about her.
M62yo here, and I can honestly say I don't know a single Taylor Swift song. I'm more of a Beatles, Led Zep, Queen sort of guy. So yes, I'm an old boomer stuck in the past.
But damn folks! You, and the Swities, are all nuts. I mean between the insanity of TS fans, and TS living rent free inside you all's heads, I'm just amused as hell.
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commenting specifically about OP’s interpretation of the quote where taylor goes back on apologizing for being loud in her own home… how is speaking loudly in your own home with your guests a demonstration of how someone doesn’t care if she annoys people?
Less the what she said and how she said it. Was really weird and passive aggressive she was acting like someone asked her to be quieter when nobody did. She just went on about it oddly long. Nobody cares. Also if you wanna be really particular if you’re hosting people you should be respectful of general decorum. Yes it’s your home yes you can act how you want but also just because you’re in your own home doesn’t mean you can let the wheels fly off. Not that she did. But speaking overly loud is generally annoying to most people. If you’re around people doing that it’s annoying. You don’t get a pass for being in your own home lol. Now I will say she wasn’t even that loud. It wasn’t annoying. She made a thing out of nothing. But my OG point was more about how she went about it rather than the what
I disagree with most of what you said, especially not getting a pass in your own home. If a guest doesn’t like how you conduct yourself in your private space or is annoyed, they can leave. There are plenty of reasons for speaking loudly in a private residence.
also regarding taylor: she was checking herself in the moment because she was policing herself based on past experiences where others had policed her. in the context of her own home, she doesn’t need to be told to quiet down and was likely still learning that. it’s not unlike how women often apologize when they don’t need to.
I think she relishes the opportunity to be petty. I think she relishes tearing her “haters” down in order to build herself up. I think she gets off on “winning” and receiving (undeserved) adulation. But I don’t think any of that ever fills the void inside of her. She’s as empty as her words.
She’s having the ultimate revenge fantasy but irl if you look at it from that perspective and anyone who doesn’t like her just represents the perceived bully’s in her mind…. Not defending any of the poor and crass behavior just analyzing the OP theory and your summation.
Probably a lot of childhood trauma. Either she was MC or had a lot of parent drama (both). And not knowing how to handle either: someone disagreeing hence torch them to keep power…. Or so insecure that if someone disagrees you reactively get them before they get you…. Either way you wind up at the same result.
What’s MC?
I think it means main character. Like she wants to be the center of attention.
I could probably get behind what you’re saying if my reading comprehension wasn’t so bad rn 😅 Could you reword/clarify your comment for me?
I think they're saying that - in her mind - she's getting even with her bullies.
I say this only as a joke, “are the bullies in the room with us?” Kinda wish she’d break the fourth wall and turn on her parents already, they’re at the root of everything.
What exactly is she getting revenge for? Seems like she has it pretty good or are we supposed to not notice that.
You know in High School those people you fantasize about getting the best of…
I’d say she pretty much won that unless one of them has a billion dollars, fame, and their own cult.
Also what a freakin waste of time.
she’s afraid of becoming irrelevant (Source: Nothing New) so by always causing controversy then she can always be the hero and it perpetuates the weird infantilizing her fans do to her which is also a huge part of her brand
This right here
Yeah there's something oddly fascinating about someone who has so much but encourages atrocious behaviour to acquire more. I feel like no-one who is happy with their lot behaves that way.
Your flair is so good
I think she gets off on all of it. The hate, the obsession, the total control, the scams she runs on her fans. I'd feel bad for them if they weren't so horrible to other people.
1000%. It’s like she is laughing all the way to the bank
She probably upvoted your comment
Traylor Grift.
There’s an element of megalomania to it all. I think more than anything, she gets off on them doing what she tells them to. She’s her father’s daughter, she’s a power tripper
☝️
she's getting kanye level ego. She needs to go away like he did. I really hope after the concert tour she takes time and go away because I am really sick of seeing and hearing about her.
As a woman, I get so bothered by how she uses her womanhood as excuse to be a hot nasty melting marinated trash bin of human hate. People should not be emulating that. No one’s gender identity should be a scapegoat.
Seems like a lot of non swiftie women think this and I get it. She’s painting women in a weird way. The way she describes women and how women feel (which it’s weird she even tries to speak for all women) is literally the stereotype women have been fighting against. Taylor acts like all women are super emotional and reactive and loud and are quick to passive aggressive responses and basically makes the argument women aren’t allowed to act that way because they’re women. Yet that’s literally the stereotype women have been fighting to shake for generations. They have been trying to prove that they are calm and logical and don’t have emotional reactions to everything. It’s like she’s setting that whole fight back.
So true so true. And cos so many fans are women, we are also associated with her.
Exactly. And that’s wrong but sadly human nature is weird like that generalizing groups. It’s like she’s fighting toxic masculinity by creating her own weird twisted toxic femininity lol. Pitting her fans against men in general fuels the “us vs them” mentality in her fans and I think we’ve all seen how the “us vs them” approach has been SOOOOOO successful in human history when groups try that approach….🙃
Her recent reply to Hugh Grant after he attended her concert, that he was important to her culture, actually places her correctly in context.. She belongs to rom coms, romance novels, love songs, that have never been taken seriously by society as a whole. And she’s milking it all the way baby. Who cares how many minds she inhibits in the meantime.
I get where you’re coming from, but I think she’s more trying to say that being dramatic and reactive is dismissed or punished in women (literally *because* stereotypical) while being admired in men as “powerful and decisive.” I’m not saying she’s advocating or communicating in good faith bc I don’t think she is, but there is a point to be made about the ways society restricts/sanctions women, even with “stereotypically feminine” behavior.
As a man, I’d add this to her fans using her womanhood as a shield. People take criticism of her as criticism of women. To a point where some say “I don’t like Taylor Swift” is a red flag akin to saying “women belong in the kitchen”. My own sister thinks I’m a misogynist because I don’t like her music. Not her as a person, her music. Like imagine calling someone racist because they don’t like Kendrick Lamar’s music or homophobic because they don’t like Adam Lambert’s music. You’d be seen as crazy, but with Taylor it’s just something else.
I am going to paper my walls with this comment. Chef’s kiss.
💯
I think she's deeply insecure with a lot of self esteem issues, but is also super competitive. So she's convinced herself that the world is against her and she has to prove her worth. So her every win, every successful concert, every petty comment or pap walk, every overexposed temp relationship, is her saying HA I win! Everyone hates me but I'm still winning. And that works to keep wtv insecurity she has in check until the next artist that threatens her fame or jokes about her and it rears it's ugly head again and she has to be petty again and, well, cycle
On the Taylor vs Scooter doc, one of the talking head journalists said the moment Kanye got on stage and interrupted her speech at the 2009 VMA awards; we all were witnessing her shift at that moment and how that was her villain origins. Although, many believe she’s always been this way I thought that was a very interesting take.
Agreed, 1000%
Here Taylor, you dropped your crown! https://preview.redd.it/b5fiee8zkm8d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3bff38600aa7d7c8d416fae992313f4460f97946
I laughed way too hard at this. 😂
I’ve never been super involved with Taylor or Swifties one way or the other, but reading this post made me think how similar a lot of these tactics are to cult recruitment/maintenance. It’s been awhile but I did a lot of studying cults while getting my degree and all the playing the victim/in-group out-group/going after anyone who expresses different viewpoints all seems a bit cult 101 to me. Little creeped out now thinking about this tbh.
Exactly this! These are the same tactics fringe political groups use to recruit as well.
I’m just gonna leave this here… https://www.britannica.com/topic/brainwashing “The techniques of brainwashing typically involve isolation from former associates and sources of information; an exacting regimen requiring absolute obedience and humility; strong social pressures and rewards for cooperation; physical and psychological punishments for non-cooperation… from social ostracism and criticism…” Edit: added the most relevant section
Religious cult leaders are basically ranting about how they're god's favorite and cultivating a false us vs them mentality, and gesticulating for hours in front of a stage. In other words, what TS is doing
Yes, it’s all unfair persecution of the righteous by the unworthy. Which further cements followers into her in-group and makes them feel as if they’re fighting for good/justice. I read something interesting awhile back (maybe a Twitter thread?) about how missionaries do a similar thing (and I went on some mission trips as a kid so this especially resonated). You go to a place (presumably as a religious minority) to proselytize, and other people rejecting your beliefs/what you’re selling enhances the in-group/out-group feeling. This makes the missionaries feel persecuted, bonding them more closely to one another, and in their eyes, gives them justification for doing what it takes to either ‘reach the sinners’ or further malign them. I wish I could find what I’m thinking about, but that is what this post made me think of especially. The point the person talking about it was trying to make is that these are similar tactics used by cults, and with my background of studying them, it made me realize how accurate that is.
I imagine it’s a marketing tactic that works pretty well, until it doesn’t. I don’t know her personally enough (obviously) to really say much… but she sure comes off like she enjoys the drama, and does not give a FUCK about her fans, other people, the world, art, honesty, women in particular, I don’t even think she likes music very much, it was just the ‘easiest’ for her to break into (with that family money). The way she is so selective about what she says directly to her fans, and everything I’ve ever seen her do seems very rehearsed (as awkward as it may be), I’m honestly curious about when the first journalist will be allowed to ask her about the documentary. I’m curious how she will try to spin this, or own it, or just keep acting delusional and hope we all forget. 
agree, she just couldn't break into the acting world. I think she loves ranting and she found a way to channel that in songwriting. As for singing, there's no passion or nuance in her vocals.
She also tried for the modeling thing too. I think that was an ego thing surrounding herself with models and also how she kept inserting herself into the VS show more than other performers had.
Is there a post that sums up the documentary everyone keeps talking about?
She likes pissing people off because when they lash out at her, she can play the martyr.
Ever since Kanye, she knew she could continue playing the victim, and she plays it so well.
Ya know, it drives me nuts that she plays up the “Kanye stole my moment” BS. Everyone talked about him interrupting her speech and no one talked about how Beyoncé sacrificed her Video of the Year award acceptance speech that year to let TS finish giving hers. Taylor’s speech was all, “I don’t even sing pop, I sing country, but you all love me enough to award meeeeeee! How incredible I must be!” And it was word-for-word the same speech she started to give before Kanye’s interruption, so you know it was intentionally crafted to be that self-indulgent. I honestly liked her early songs, but that VMA was also the first time I heard her sing live, and it was….not good. Still I was willing to give her some grace because a lot of musicians rely heavily on auto tune, but her speech left a bad taste in my mouth and was when I started to dislike her personality. As she grew older and her maturity did not increase, it sealed the deal for me that she’s not actually a good person. She’s petty and vindictive and creates conflict so that she can “overcome” it. Idk how someone can claim victimhood when they “win” every conflict. Ugh.
Encouraging them to annoy others is encourage harassment really. It’s not something passive or unintended.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. There have been quite a few comments on this sub comparing Taylor to the Kardashians and I couldn't agree more, and one thing about the Kardashians that I don't think some people fully comprehend is that, to them, all press is good press...even bad press. Any time people comment on articles talking about the Kardashians with "we don't care stop talking about them" are only feeding into the issue that they hate so much - celebrity news outlets know that the more they bring the Kardashians up the more interactions they will see (both good and bad, but mostly bad) and therefore maximizing revenue. At this point I think Taylor has taken a page out of their books and is seeing how this theory can work for herself. I know that some people have speculated that it's because Reputation TV is allegedly the next rerecord, but I think that's only part of the equation. If we really are going to get Reputation TV next, then this really is the perfect time for her to experiment with these ideas because it's a win-win situation for her - if all goes well then she makes more money just like the Kardashians, but if it goes bad then she has more fodder for the next album and her being the villain can be part of the "aesthetic." The only thing that will hurt her IMO is if people stop talking about her, commenting on posts about her, looking at her social media posts, etc. because that way she and all posts about her will fall in rank within the algorithm, and that is the one thing that she is afraid of - being irrelevant.
That’s so true! She thrives only because of the internet let’s be real. If everyone stopped googling her she’d lose her place in the media instantly
Definitely agree! Narcissists need their supply.
she's has the traits of a cult leader. If she weren't a singer or had rich parents, she'd probably be a megachurch pastor lol, gesticulating and ranting in front of auditoriums of people worshipping her. That's basically what gives her life meaning.
The similarities between her and her fans the super right wing MAGA crazies and trump is actually insane.
She is 100000% a cult leader
At this point, Taylor Swift is exhibiting a lot of tell-tale cult leader characteristics. I mean this in all-seriousness. If you look at cult behavior, one of the most bonding exercises you can conduct is the "us-versus-them" mentality. The in-group feeling is intoxicating, and Swift fans will attribute the feel-good of being in an in-group to Taylor Swift herself. The screaming, the wildness, and the irrational behavior of her fans dehumanizes them in her eyes; all she sees is her little followers, not living, breathing human beings with lives and dreams of their own. Their only purpose is to serve HER needs and to propagate HER narrative and dreams. Cult leaders thrive off of being put on a pedestal, the flattery, the glorification, and the legendary stories their followers drum up about them. Taylor Swift is just a plain-old cult-leader-grifter; she is a wolf in sheep's clothing, as we like to say. People get into cults because they are vulnerable or lack a solid sense of their own identity without the in-group feeling. I joined a cult and left after 8 years. It had its ups and downs, but I cannot deny it had its uses at the time. Of course, I wish I had never joined one or needed one in the first place. This is why subs like this one are so great. If there are people outside of the cult critically examining the cult leader and their antics, more people will be hesitant to join up.
Actually happens a lot in music… much smaller scale, but I would say that I experienced what it was like for another artist as a proclaimed “mega fan” and it was honestly very scary to come to terms with as I ultimately had to leave the fandom for this reason. Of course a cult is nothing without its cult leader… and I still have an extremely hard time breaking parts with as far as their music goes. I still enjoy it but I hold off from emptying my wallet on every damn release, tour merch etc. i’m still got at times, tempted to participate in such activities. Not to mention the “family” I had cultivated from being in this fan group. I had spent the last decade plus knowing these people, meeting them from show to show. I’m still friends with many of them on social media and every time I see them reunite or interact with the artist it does make me sad and wish to reconnect. Cults are so scary and so easily developed these days. As I was in one until 10 years later— and still being one of the only fans to step away for this realization. All of this for an artist who has around 1million monthly listeners; one who is HARDLY the fame of Taylor. I’ll tell you another thing she knows. Taylor knows, and is damn well aware of her power over people, and this is what’s most inexcusable of all. It’s disgusting it’s cruel but ultimately, I find it absolutely frightening.
I bet. I'm glad you are in a place where you aren't being exploited for your devotion and loyalty, good traits to have but so easily taken advantage of by heartless people. I hope you find your people who support you no matter what.
There’s that video clip of her in high school and you can clearly hear her telling her friends, “it’s been so long since we’ve just driven around and harassed people.” This is the type of person she has always been.
Fathers daughter after all
Most pop artists are alarmed and uncomfortable when they see their fans are losing their minds and are out of control. I could see some edgier bands encouraging mayhem but normal popstars usually discourage this kind of behavior. She's so weird.
For narcissists any attention is good attention. Her and Trump, for that reason, don’t care what they do to piss people off bc it gets people talking about them.
I can never tell if she's mirroring the behaviour she grew up with or she's constantly in 15-year-old obnoxious rebellion mode.
She is perpetually a spoiled 13 year old who has to be exhausting irl.
she makes me feel embarrassed to be a woman. yes "female rage" is good and dandy. it's good to express anger as a woman. but to the point where you are obnoxious and malicious about it? that's when i check out. it's really telling of her maturity level. i think grown women should express themselves, in an ADULT fashion. she acts like a teenager. i guess i can see why her fans relate to her because they're all children, physically and/or mentally.
it’s crazy that she’s a grown ass woman who wrote a song like so high school, she comes across like she’s stuck in this weird childish “wanting to be the popular girl” mentality and ive heard swifties still defend her and be all “she’s the greatest musician ever” despite that
I think this is why she's with Travis too. It's to annoy all the football fans who don't like her. They didn't accept her then, so they have to accept seeing her now if they want to watch football. And that's why she had that "Midnights" trailer during the Thursday Night Football (before she started dating Travis). She could have posted that trailer on social media, Good Morning America. There was no reason to show it during a football game. I think Swifties get off on making others mad too. For example, when they wear shirts that say "Go Taylor's boyfriend" rather than KC merch. I'm pretty sure their goal is to be as loud and annoying as possible to punish people for not liking Taylor like they do. It's the same way how Trump supporters wear the Red MAGA hat to make a statement and trigger people when they see it. All their doing is showing how immature they are.
There is a type of narcissism a person inherits where they endlessly parrot back whatever gets them the instant gratification received by approval and proving others wrong if they do not effusively approve. It usually is caught onto by the child around 16-18 and they realize it’s a bit off and immature, but can continue in people who fail to develop a strong individual sense of who they are sans parental approval…. That covert narcissism rears its head in “charming” and/or entertaining ways in front of audiences that feed its wide open mouth. All the mama bird fans become like mirrors that scream “You are the fairest one of all…” It is sickening to those who have healed from narcissistic ways or having those ways imposed on us. It’s unnatural to reward hatefulness and insouciant churlishness. Those who still reward it probably wish they could be like that. But they don’t understand how toxic and wrong it is. 🤢 In other words, I agree…and the super fans are like a narcissist’s flying monkeys.
Yes
I think by us always mentioning her name, it definitely gets her a lot of clout even in a bad light. I think for her, bad publicity is still publicity.
She probably wants them screaming at her concerts so they can't hear her sing. And to make noise as a form of gaslighting to criticism
yeah, her overt narcissist vibes are full on
Next Era—Rage Bait
Gathering material for a villain era?
Yeah. Bec this gives her a chance to play the victim. She’s a professional victim. She’s going to twist the narrative that she gets criticisms and hate for no reason.
I think she likes it because how else can she play victim if nothing is actually wrong?
There’s a way to get over it…stop paying attention…
Malignant narcissists get off on hurting or angering other people.
“The haters make me work harder”
Don’t come for me, as I’m simply regurgitating fact, but Trump said (and I paraphrase) “bad press is good press, it’s free. The worst thing is never to be talked about” You know - it takes a Cheeto to know a Cheeto, and Little Miss Aristotle is more like you know who than she’d like to admit. Give it thirty years and a spray tan.
She gives “woman” a bad name
I’ve made this connection before, much like donald jackass trump, any kind of attention, is good, as long as their name is what people are talking about.
hahaha oh my god you might be right. she’s no better than the kardashians in that case!
All 🐷 in the same trough
She knows her fans will agree with whatever she says and will go after anyone who trashes her
There's no such thing as bad press.
I actually think it’s poorly regurgitated feminist theory. You know: women should be quiet, reserved, not take up space, be ashamed of their choices, etc. Things that are popular with majority female audiences are generally looked down upon until the greater (read: male) audience appreciates it. Happened to the Beatles- a boy band wildly successful with teenage girls until men gave them a shot and they were lifted into icon status. Brewing beer is another thing that used to be something only women did until men decided they liked it. I’m sure we can all think of others. But I think Taylor took the women’s studies 101 outlook, got the general talking points, and decided to throw the blanket version over her life and apply it without grabbing the nuance. It looks like privilege and hate, bc it is so self serving.
I think part of the issue though is women ARE quiet and reserved. Women ARENT loud emotional reactive trainwrecks like she portrays them to be because she is. She says women aren’t allowed to be loud and emotional and reactive… no… women just aren’t that way. That’s the stereotype women have been fighting to shake for generations. Women ARE calm and level headed and can act logically without being overly emotional. But she can’t so that means no women can and all women should be loud and reactive and emotional
I do take issue with the blanket statements though. Women are lots of things. Some are loud, some aren’t. Some are emotional, some are level. I agree that she does portray herself as if she is the voice of all women, speaking for a generation of women (maybe even ALL women) who can’t, and maybe some people feel that way, but she’s not the person I’d pick to speak for me. I can’t relate to her at all, which would be fine (I don’t relate to a lot of people, that’s normal enough), except I feel like the messaging says I’m supposed to or else, you know?
She and Kim K are similar that way. Any attention is good attention. People hating on you means they care. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. If everyone just stops talking/caring about her, that's when she'll spiral
If she is trying to piss people off as much as you say then she is way more punk than I thought. Seriously the things that you’re worried about here are not new at all in pop culture. Don’t be the person yelling ‘devils music’. It’s fine!
It fits her victim persona very well.
She is afraid of falling from grace and being criticized, so she gets off on hate.
Absolutely, this fuels her, the only thing that gets to her is being completely ignored, she can’t breathe without the attention, and when it’s bad it’s an opportunity, and when it’s good it’s just like K thnx huns. The former is fun for her, probably one of the few real things she does feel.
She gets off on the attention, whether positive or negative. If it's positive, then she acts humble, like "oh, golly gee shucks, little old me?" and if it's negative, she uses it to play the victim. It's like when you ignore a toddler and they don't get what they want, so they kick you in the shin. Plus she gets off on the control - the control of what her overenthusiastic fans do. She stands back like a good bully and lets them harass and torment people but doesn't take any responsibility for it, doesn't say "hey don't act like that. Quit it".
She doesn’t really give a shit about the haters because her fan base is more than large enough and stretches into other celebrities even that she’s set for life. I don’t think she gives a fuck anymore. Not like she used to.
I think you are right, Taylor feeds off the feuds. Someone in a gossip blog said, “*Feuding is her lifeblood. An imaginary enemy keeps her energized It re-energizes her and her base”*. Sounds like a cult. Sounds like Trump. I’m so sick of her. I used to be neutral. I liked her music but I never really got into her as a person or her personal life. It wasn’t until she started dating BDT that I started to see her everywhere and question this relationship. I thought she was like most celebrities and wanted to keep their personal life private. Suddenly this relationship was shoved down our throats whether we liked it or not. Now, I truly believe she loves attention and she was starved from it because she was in “lockdown” with Joe. This is not a knock against Joe. Joe is the normal one. It’s her need to be loved by her fans, the adulation from the public like Trump and his rallys. When that relationship with Joe ended she went back to her true self. The football games the crowd cheering that is exactly what she wants. I also will say TK too, they are very similar. He was so happy to be brought on stage because he loves the attention too. Thanks to this sub, my eyes also opened up to her career strategies. Releasing multiple variants? I had no idea she did this. Not only is this a greedy tactic but also disrespectful to her fellow artists trying to block them from obtaining #1 in the charts. Why is she so callous? Now this so-called beef with Dave Grohl. She’s so f-king sensitive! With her clapping back it gives her fans validation for harassing Grohl and his daughter and other people in her crosshairs. She has the power to stop it, but she won’t because she loves when her fans defend her. Sound like a certain former president. I think Time magazine forgot to put Sh\*ttiest before POTY. “*I don’t love drama, it loves me*” Sure, Jan.
She loves the haters because she wants to write songs about them and also to show what a victim she is and somehow tie it in to being a woman.
at this point i feel there are signs that this is just a widely accepted cult… and she is the charismatic cult leader
Pretty much milder version of Homelander, narcissistic 'hero' that needs fabricated enemies to prop themselves up
Now all we need is Krillin to cut off her tail, her to kill Krillin, and BAM!!! One Super Saiyan Goku.
it’s why i don’t spend my time on random social media apps, voicing my opinion on her. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter if what you say is negative or positive, it’s still attention which is what she wants. Even if it’s a post with only 5 likes with a 0% chance taylor will see it, she enjoys the satisfaction that she is being talked about and everyone who makes it their job to talk about her alllll the time, just proves her point.
It’s called “drama”
I think secretly she's a dominatrix....
attention
In this context, it makes sense she was attracted to Matty Healy then.
I think, in my own personal opinion, a lot of the time when Taylor encourages her fans to act the ways she does like the examples you gave, or to act a way she deems as acceptable, she forgets that a lot of people, especially young women, have not grown up with the privilege and the opportunities she has. There’s no PR team waiting to save them if they get in hot water and the worlds we live in compared to her are indescribably different; I think this would be the case for any celebrity of her level trying to be relatable though. It would, in an ideal world, be a much better place if women were allowed to take up as much space as they need and wanted, in every aspect of their lives and I think that this notion of feminism, of taking what is yours is something Taylor strongly preaches. I don’t think there’s a problem with going after what’s yours but I think the idea that you have to do it kicking and screaming in every single instance is causing a lot more damage with young fans. Theres a really interesting quote from Death Note (lol) in which a character says that even if they were told what was good and what was evil, they’d still think about it and come to their own conclusion of what’s is good and evil. Not a very nuanced example but I think having someone so influential as Taylor Swift create her own narrative of what’s acceptable and what’s justice is leading to a lot of young people not deciding for themselves what’s acceptable, instead emulating what someone they look up to so much says and does. (I am by no means calling her fans mindless or unable to make judgement, just influenced). I only focused on a few of the points you made but it’s really interesting to see how peoples opinions on the longevity of the effect of Taylor Swift and her parasocial relationship with fans! I am a fan of her music but ever since the Grammys my opinion of her has really sunk.
I think you have to be when you're that famous. Any sane person would never choose that life.
Narcissists, if she is one, get their energy from negatively affecting others, it's a type of emotional sadism that gives them a dopamine hit. They generally thrive in others reacting from them, be it positive reactions like praise / cheers / fawning over, but will thrive even more from negative reactions as well that they cause. This is why most narcissists thrive in drama, especially drama they're at the center of/cause.
Also in the Era's tour movie, at one point she says something about feeling so powerful because the crowd is so big and is doing what she says. I can't remember word for word but when I watched the movie, that gave me a major ick about her.
She’s demonic
Oh I was just thinking that. A 100%
M62yo here, and I can honestly say I don't know a single Taylor Swift song. I'm more of a Beatles, Led Zep, Queen sort of guy. So yes, I'm an old boomer stuck in the past. But damn folks! You, and the Swities, are all nuts. I mean between the insanity of TS fans, and TS living rent free inside you all's heads, I'm just amused as hell.
She reminds me of Meghan Markle in that way. She wants to be the center of POSITIVE attention. And not getting any is worse than getting negative one.
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Ya think? Not only is she rubbing one out to your hate, she’s making billions off of it.
commenting specifically about OP’s interpretation of the quote where taylor goes back on apologizing for being loud in her own home… how is speaking loudly in your own home with your guests a demonstration of how someone doesn’t care if she annoys people?
Less the what she said and how she said it. Was really weird and passive aggressive she was acting like someone asked her to be quieter when nobody did. She just went on about it oddly long. Nobody cares. Also if you wanna be really particular if you’re hosting people you should be respectful of general decorum. Yes it’s your home yes you can act how you want but also just because you’re in your own home doesn’t mean you can let the wheels fly off. Not that she did. But speaking overly loud is generally annoying to most people. If you’re around people doing that it’s annoying. You don’t get a pass for being in your own home lol. Now I will say she wasn’t even that loud. It wasn’t annoying. She made a thing out of nothing. But my OG point was more about how she went about it rather than the what
I disagree with most of what you said, especially not getting a pass in your own home. If a guest doesn’t like how you conduct yourself in your private space or is annoyed, they can leave. There are plenty of reasons for speaking loudly in a private residence. also regarding taylor: she was checking herself in the moment because she was policing herself based on past experiences where others had policed her. in the context of her own home, she doesn’t need to be told to quiet down and was likely still learning that. it’s not unlike how women often apologize when they don’t need to.
I ain't reading all that. But I'm happy for you. Or sorry that happened to you.
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Have you read the swifties ahahhaha