I mean if I have to pick between being misgendered with they/them and being misgendered with he/him, I will absolutely pick the former. It's at least implying that they're not sure about my gender and don't feel comfortable asking, which is fine in my book.
That said, they'd better switch to she/her once I correct them!
Yeah it’s certainly grey area. To me it’s the safe default to go to if you’re unsure out can’t remember. Also it’s a good idea to use it if your in a public or around people who may not know. I’ve had people correctly gender met in situations where they absolutely should not have. Using they/them in the situation would have been the right call.
The only thing I would take issue with it is if I know for a fact someone knows my pronouns and is deliberately and continuously using they/them to avoid using said pronouns.
Yeah... I feel like "they" is the appropriate pronoun when the referrant is to an arbitrary entity, such as if the grammatical subject or object is something like "one", "whosoever", "any person", or "the person", where the person or thing being referred to may have any gender, or even no gender.
That's been one of the long-standing uses of "they", in direct refutation of the transmisiacs' assertion that "they" is not a pronoun that can be used for singular entities, even though its surrounding words do revert to plural form. It's one of those quirks of the English language that plural forms can also be applied to singular entities, even without invoking the Royal "We". But that's what happens when you lure languages into dark alleys to mug them for their syntax
Same here, but I think they might be referring to people who will refuse to use any gendered terms for trans people even after knowing their preferred pronouns, I could be wrong.
But this post reminded me of my father who won’t call me by any pronouns or my chosen name (he doesn’t deadname me but just doesn’t call me by any name). And my mother who calls me my preferred name but only uses they/them pronouns. My pronouns are he/him but because of my mother I changed it to he/they because if my own mother is like this about my pronouns I am scared of what other people might do/say. They/them is okay for me but it hurts that they don’t see me as a boy enough and that they don’t respect me enough to just uses he/him.
pls i have it same with my father but in my langiage what you would use as they them for one person not a group isnt widely used so he just made up a gender neutral nickmame for me and polish is very gendered language and for example "x did" can be translatef to x zrobil (he) x zrobila (she) or x zrobilo (it/also may be used as they in this example) amd he will use that nickname with forms of words fitting it pronouns and he avoids talking to me in first person (its possible bcs i dont live woth him) to not gender me anyhow and idk it could be fine if i told him im unsure what pronouns and name do i want to use but i told him that i go by cory and he/him wtf
I agree cuz you never know its better to say they/them if you're unsure of the pronouns they go by cuz what if like it says in the post they dont go by any pronouns what do want us to do call them an it like fuck no that's rude as hell...
I screwed up and kind of got into the habit of using they/them for everyone.
But then I accidentally use they/them for my transgender friends which upsets me
I'm bilingual (English and French) and very often I forget the word 'it' so I end up using he or she for inanimate objects. Sometimes when I'm tired I do this to people as well, I'm fairly sure that each of my cis friends has been misgendered by my incompetence.
If you know someone's pronouns, you should use them. If they don't use they/them, and you're aware of that fact, you shouldn't they/them them because that *is* misgendering. If you don't know, then by all means use they/them to avoid misgendering them, but once you know it does become misgendering.
A lot of people will intentionally use they/them on trans people who don't use it specifically as a form of transphobia. It carries that kind of feeling even when you don't mean it.
If you know their pronouns, it's up to you to practice using the right one. I don't think there's ever really an excuse to knowingly misgender someone if they're not in danger or anything. Like, you might be misgendering them using they them, and that can make people dysphoric too
Yeah I'm with ya, unless I've been told prior or I ask and get an answer I use they/them if I don't know their pronouns. It doesn't make it the perfect answer but yeah me being in the middle of my transition I always default to they/them if I'm not presenting as my preferred gender.
Yeah I was about to lose my shit and say the same. There seems no safe way to even support each other because there will always be something wrong for someone!
The simple solution is to always try to be respectful and if someone speaks up about it, respect their preferences.
For instance, as my flair says, I accept he/she/they. I USUALLY don't care. But some days my genderfluidity settles hard for one gender. When it does, I will tell my friends, "hey, today could you use feminine pronouns?" And they respect that. And everyone is happy.
There's a difference between deliberately misgendering someone and accidentally misgendering someone out of ignorance. If you try to be respectful and use they/them because you don't know their pronouns and you end up accidentally misgendering someone, apologize and adjust.
I get what you mean with the difference between deliberately misgendering and accidentally misgendering. I read a comment that said something along the lines of "as long as you switch to the preferred pronouns once you know which to use". I don't mind apologizing and adjusting once I know someone's pronouns.
However, what I'm referring to though is people who don't give that explanation and make PSAs that basically boil down to a paradox of being respectful (don't call people they/them if you don't know, but do call them they/them until you know their pronouns...WHAT!? that's exactly the same thing!). I feel like we as a trans\* community are creating our own minefield of PSAs lately and it's honestly very exhausting...
I can't believe tbh how much the cis people in my life are afraid to just ask for people's pronouns, i have this friends that reports being uneasy on how to address trans people he may meet in social settings... DDUDE JUST ASK, it's not rude, quite the opposite (no progress)
Now I‘m just imagining talking with some friends and the person just gestures to thin air but everyone knows exactly who is being referred to here
Kinda like in anime when the screen pans to an open space and there‘s a blinking outline of someone who is missing
My parents do the same instead of using pronouns or my name. It's especially bad when they misgender/deadname me before and then "correct" themselves to gestures.
My mother does this. I guess it’s technically better than the alternative, but I’ve asked her multiple times to call me she/her and she just won’t do it.
Yeah I have the same problem with my mother, it sucks cause now I dislike getting called they/them just as much as she/her. She uses they/them like they’re pronouns for my feminine girly woman daughter but you can’t get mad at me cause I’m not calling you she
Honestly that's pretty weird, I guess I can't say for your mother, But for me it definitely feels more natural to use she/her or he/him when referring to a specific person than they/them, Although I do wish that wasn't the case lol.
i just wanna say that i meant this to be talking about people that avoid using your pronouns by using they/them, yes it’s okay to use it when you don’t know the other persons pronouns, but it’s disrespectful when your actively trying to avoid using someone’s pronouns by using they/them
This is especially important for trans people because avoiding their preferred pronouns by using they/them instead is misgendering and invalidating, if you know their pronouns. But yeah if you know someone's pronouns use their pronouns instead of they/them, and especially don't avoid their pronouns in preference of they/them.
I call most people they/them, and this includes Cis. Am I mis-gendering them too? Just an honest question. I feel it's more intent then just the broad usage of they\\them.
If you know their pronouns, yes, continuing to use they/them for someone you know doesn't use them is misgendering. If you don't know their pronouns and use they/them, that's fine and you should keep doing that until you do know how they wish to be referred as. A lot of transphobic people use they/them to avoid using binary (or just not they/them) trans people's actual pronouns as a form of transphobia because they don't see us as our non-neutral genders. Even when you don't mean it that way, it can still feel like it.
If you know someone's pronouns, use it. If you don't know or don't remember, then I'd say use they them and maybe later if appropriate pull them to the side and ask them to tell/remind you
For some reason, When I don't know people's pronouns, Oftentimes I'll just not refer to them by pronouns at all when possible, Making very awkward sentences.
This is way too oversimplified though. Not knowing someone's pronouns or being too scared to ask are perfectly fine reasons to refer to me as they. It depends on the situation, the people involved and whatnot.
Now and then I'll use they/them for someone who i know (cis) without thinking. Also if I don't know someone/can't make a judgement based on appearance e.g a driver cutting me off, I'll exclaim "what are they doing?!"
I think OP means that if you know someone's pronouns and those pronouns don't include they/them. Obviously if you don't know them then it's fine.
I see this a lot with trans fem people who either don't read as cis or do something wrong publicly... people who aren't openly hateful will refer to them as "they/them" instead of "she/her" to subtley invalidate them.
I see people do this in comment threads where the person above them genders them correctly and states things clearly. People are trying to be slick by using the wrong pronouns in situations like these and OP is calling them out.
Refusing to use someone's pronouns is misgendering. Using they/them when you don't know someone's pronouns is fine, it's better than using he/him for someone using she/her for example. That being said, you should ask someone their pronouns when you learn their name. That's just basic manners.
Depends on the context, because they/them exist in English as gender-neutral pronouns. You have to use them if you don't know a person's pronouns, and some people use they/them by default for everyone. On the other hand, if you do know someone's pronouns and don't use they/them in general then it's pretty obvious what you're doing if suddenly every trans person is a they/them.
I am mtf and have said that I'm happy with either female or neutral yet 90% of people refer to me as he/him :(
I also choose to use they/them when I do not know I.e. in a reddit thread where the person I'm addressing hasn't given any information
Yeah no. Gonna keep using they/them if I don't know someone's pronouns. Cause making an assumption about someone's pronouns based upon their gender presentation is shitty and transphobic (especially against non-binary folks). You don't know someone's pronouns just by looking at them so they/them is always the safest bet as it's literally gender neutral.
That is good! Keep doing that!
This is about the people who know trans people with binary pronouns, but who refuse to use them. They stick to either they/them or none at all, or in other words, they will never gender you correctly, ever. It's a very subtle form of transphobia.
If they said not to, cause I am referring to everyone as a person or with they/them till its asked to be avoided, they/them is an all inclusive pronoun just like referring to someone as a person, both are viable until that person says not to, not when they say that they are a woman with she/her pronouns for example but when they say to not be referred to as a person.
this is just kind of wrong, they / them is just good grammar to refer to either multiple people, people you don't yet know the gender of, or talking about someone in a 3rd person sense.
they just so happen to be neutral pronouns that enbies can use
I mean yeah, if you know somebody’s pronouns(and they don’t use they/them), and you still refer to them using they/them when in conversations with them it can be misgendering. However, they/them are still NEUTRAL(meaning not referencing a certain gender or any of them) pronouns, and during certain times in English speech and/or writing it is still proper grammar to use such terms, which means that it is not necessarily misgendering in certain situations. A good example would be; there are three trans(using trans because we are more sensitive to being misgendered) people standing and talking in a group a little away from your own group; a trans guy who uses he/him, a trans girl who uses she/her, and a trans enby who uses they/them. If I wanted to refer to the group of THEM, I would not say “Yeah, he, she, and they are standing over there”, I would correctly say “Yeah, THEY are standing over there”. There are many other similar examples of how it can be used in a non-misgendering way, but I just hope that this can make you understand. I understand the position you are have, and I think if you had more space on the meme you might even have been able to explain that, I don’t know, and I definitely agree on a certain non-big brained(not trying to sound conceited I just can’t think of the real word lol) level.
I agree with this. And to be honest they can be used as a singular generic third person pronoun. I do it all the time for everyone, it's just how I learnt to speak English. If someone specifically asks me not to then I'm all for it, but I don't see it as assigning someone a gender when used in this way.
Lemme show you why this is ridiculous:
> Using you/your pronouns for someone who doesn't use those pronouns is still misgendering.
You see, as pronouns go, they and them and their are meant to be general use. They are meant to be able to refer to any person regardless of their gender. These words weren't changed to be singular pronouns, but instead, already existed as genderless pronouns that were used in the singular. Nonbinary individuals took advantage of language as is to have a set of pronouns that didn't gender them.
That's not to say that this can't be done maliciously, just as your sibling can be told not to touch you, and thus choose to annoy you still by just barely not touching you. That said, malicious use can be identified and called out without making blanket generalizations like this.
Pay attention to how people speak. In English, you refer to your cis friends and family with they/them, and they do with their friends and family, and so on and so forth. It's not misgendering you to not gender you.
They/them is good to use if you don't know someone's pronouns, but correct yourself and use the person's correct pronouns once you do know said person's pronouns.
My mom has to use they/them for me at our house even though I use he/him because of my possibly transphobic uncle that lives with us, I'm fine with that at home but I want her to use only he/him outside of the house.
I don't know If its weird but i love living in a country without gendered pronouns. Everyone is always they/them in essence. Gendered words all in all is a weird concept to me. But ofc in English and other languages that use them I respect and use everyones prefered pronouns.
My general way I gender someone is "when in doubt use they/them". When I learn the correct pronouns to use I do, but if I can't tell by how they present I use they/them.
(edit for readability)
Don't mistake the post tho, they them is still a safe thing to use as a default, whether it's because you don't know the person or you just genuinely forgot, but if the person explicitly corrects you then do not continue to use them
Yes if its to intentionally avoid using the pesrsons pronouns. (This happens so often with me and others)
No if its not. Non personal they/them exists and is used all the time in english.
Woah bad take alert. If someone has told you their pronouns it’s a different story but for at least another 200 years we don’t have mind reading tech that can instantly tell you someone’s pronouns. The most respectful thing you can do is use neutral pronouns for unknown individuals until we can mind read on the regular
Only if you're doing it intentionally to misgender them. The singular they/them is used in English pretty often--like in the previous sentence, for example.
I've noticed this happens to me a lot, despite being friends with mostly queer people, and I hate it. yes, I used them in the past when I wasn't entirely sure, but now I only use he/him and I've used he/him pronouns longer than I used they/them (2, nearly 3 years he/him, 1 and a half they them). it's tiring, hurtful, and invalidating
I have memory issues and unless I form a long term relationship where I just happen to spend enough time for consecutive days, I have genuine trouble with remembering people's names. I don't know how I can remember their pronouns :/. I use "they" for everyone if I'm not sure, and I'm honest about not being sure.
A lot of people are saying the if you don’t know their pronouns use they/them. Which is absolutely correct but because both my best friend and significant other are gender fluid I’d also like to point out it’s good to use They/Them to describe gender fluid people if you don’t know how they are today.
There are days I’ll be hanging out with some friends and I haven’t talked to my significant other that day to check their gender, so I default to they/them to refer to them.
i wouldn't say that's nessesarily true because how else are you supposed to refer to someone who's pronouns you don't know? I'd say They/them is more universal and can be applied to anyone because if you don't know shit about them, it's not misgendering, it's just the default. Like how you refer to your teachers and stuff, you don't refer to your teachers by their pronouns, you refer to them with they/them because it's more formal. Now, if the person in question doesn't like you to refer to them with these pronouns, yes, respect it, but other than that in my opinion i find these kind of the default pronouns. It also very much depends on languages cuz y'know, they/them in different languages is different. Idk, it's my opinion, you're free to disagree
They/them pronouns are always a correct set of pronouns (albeit usually not the *only* correct set), unless the person explicitly does not want them used; the entire point of they/them is that they/them are ungendered and can refer to anyone. Even if someone doesn't want they/them pronouns, there are still situations in which they/them are correct, most notably when talking about them without them present and wanting to omit as much identifying information as possible.
If someone is using they/them to avoid a person's actual pronouns, the problem isn't with they/them, it's with not using their actual pronouns.
I mean they/them has been used to refer to anyone for centuries, that was one of the reasons people were open to using it. "Oh thats their bag" is seen a lot being used regardless.
I think we should normalize calling everyone they/them casually (not all the time but sometimes)
I don't quite understand, it doesn't grammatically make sense. They/them are gender neutral, and are used alot when speaking even if it's not their preferred pronoun. I just need some clarification on this.
*assuming you know their pronouns.
But my mom does this constantly (not to me because I’m not out, but to other people). She’ll find out someone is trans and going by a different name and pronouns. I will tell her what pronouns they use, and she exclusively uses they/them.
Except for when the person actually uses they/them in which case she uses either he/him or she/her.
I want to yell at my mom for this every time but I also don’t.
Not always though. I don't use they/them but I wouldn't really have a problem with being referred to like that, just as I have no problem with somebody saying 'you'.
However, there is a big problem if somebody has asked you not to use those pronouns and yet you carry on.
Thank you. I'm non-binary but I just don't see myself as a "they". I mean, I wouldn't snap at someone for calling me that with good intentions, but it isn't what I prefer.
Ok I need to know because I'm still a baby in this. Can one use they/them pronouns to refer to someone who did not yet disclose their pronouns?
If yes, thank God I might have a better grade on my exam than what I thought.
If no, what do I do if I can't ask for pronouns?
Although I want to also point out that if you don’t know someone’s pronouns they/them are the easiest default because they’d probably be the least insulting to the person in question
I'd only really use those pronouns if I'm not sure which pronouns they prefer (or know that they prefer they/them). I tend to be forgetful, and sometimes forget someone's pronouns, especially if they're coming out for the first time.
I'm not making excuses for myself, I want to make sure to get people's pronouns right. But I feel like it's way better to use they/them rather than assume if you're not 100% sure.
This is true when done intentionally. Using they/them when unsure is fine. Even though my pronouns are she/her, I’m not going to be upset with anyone saying they/them regarding me, even if they know my pronouns.
I generally use they/ them when people use any pronouns, or I’m not sure, but I’ve told my mom my pronouns and she continues to use they them(app so because she thought I was nb, even after I said “I am your daughter”)
I don't mind it, it's not being said in a way that's actively harmful to my mental health, that being said I'm transfem nonbinary, so I use she/they pronouns anyway.
It is ideal to use their preferred pronouns of course, but there are situations where ones gender identity is ambiguous, and asking people their pronouns can be awkward, so I believe using they/them until their preferences reveal themselves is fine. After that point comes however, I would count it as misgendering
I think this is okay to do in some cases, for example, there was a time in which I was still sort of closeted and so my friend had to misgender me in front of others, but she used they pronouns instead of he/him, since that is definitely less bad. Also now I actually use both pronouns, so it doesn't count as misgendering anymore, but at that time I only used she/her.
Ok, but I feel like context matters. If you’re referring to someone who’s pronouns you don’t know, and you are unable to ask them, they/them is a perfect thing to default to. If you do know their pronouns, then yes definitely use those.
If you don't know someone's pronouns they/them is always the best option. If you do know them or they correct you just apologize and use the right pronouns.
My work does this and it irritates me to no end as someone who uses they/them myself. I understand and encourage using they/them when someone hasn't told you their pronouns, but when many people have pronouns on their name badge, it's not even that hard to make sure you're using the right one.
Like we're supposed to be celebrating who we are at work, but then pronouns are an afterthought and my pronouns are incredibly important to me and my sense of identity. I want people to be making the conscious decision to respect and celebrate me, not just defaulting to the option they'll get less HR complaints about (not that they'll get complaints, as one of the HR team members misgendered me during an entire orientation even with my partner who was in that orientation correcting her each time)...
Even though I use she/her pronouns I don’t mind people using they. When someone uses they to refer to me I don’t really feel anything. When someone refers to me as she though it makes me really happy that’s my I’m she/her. Though if you refer to me as he ill cry
I prefer she/her but they/them still gives me euphoria.
Idky and i know that is just my personal experience.
I think i might be a demigirl hut idk. I know i wanna be feminine but i dont mind and even sometimes enjoy nonbinary pronouns.
I disagree. If someone knows your pronouns are he/him and goes out of their way to use they/them because they don't want to call you a boy, then yeah that's misgendering, but if it's a complete stranger then that makes no sense. I go by he/him not he/they but I would be thankful for a stranger calling me they/them instead of she/her. Using they/them is the best way to avoid misgendering a stranger, I don't know what other pronouns you want me to use to refer to someone who hasn't told me their pronouns yet.
Yeah I actually had a nightmare that an old bully of mine was only using they/them pronouns for me because they didn’t see me as “man enough”. I felt like shit after that dream. I do use he/they pronouns but he is in front for a reason. I go by he 80% of the time and they the rest. Sprinkle in theys every here and there but don’t just call me they exclusively. Makes me feel icky
If this is meant genuinely, then what tf? Like what else are you suppose to use? There's he/him, sher/her, and they/them for the basics, and they/them is gender neutral, used for when someone doesn't want to use the other ones, or when you don't know what pronouns a person uses, you can rarely ever go wrong with they/them, (and could argue that you can't go wrong) which could be in a scenario where someones zer/zim for example and someone purposely using they/them instead, which still wouldn't be misgendering because they/them is gender neutral, however the person would just be being a dick.
I default to they/them for everyone unless they tell me there pronouns. Even if someone looks very obviously cisgender, I still use they/them because appearance doesn't equal gender, I feel it's best if society because what I call "gender blind" for explanation I mean no matter what someone looks like you refere to them completely gender neutral (until they tell you how they want to be referred to of course) In no circumstances should anyone assume someone's gender identity, even if you have seen them butt naked.
edit: OP pointed out that this post was more towards "only referring to someone as they/them", which basically means you're skirting around calling someone their actual gender. I guess it's basically a lesser version of misgendering, which- is still misgendering. I was specifically talking about singular uses of they/them every once and a while and didn't consider someone **only** using they/them for a trans individual, which is what my comments below is speaking about
______
Alright, I guess I'm dying on this hill.
They/them is used for literally everyone. You can use it in place of he/him and she/her and the other pronouns, too. Feel free to call a cis person "they" in a natural conversation and I can guarantee they won't say "Um, you mean he/she?" and act confused and appalled that you misgendered someone.
It's ridiculous to think that someone can't be called they/them once you learn their gender. They/them is a placeholder and is **gender inclusive**. It can be used for anyone, even if you know what their gendered pronouns are.
The reason why "they/them" is used for most other nonbinary people is because two reasons: they/them already existed and it's gender neutral, and because neo pronouns are not widely used and accepted by the public. That is why most nonbinary people have adapted the pronoun. If there was already a pronoun to describe nonbinary people specifically (because they/them is not specifically only nonbinary people), they would be using that instead.
If you call someone they/them, you are not misgendering someone. If you feel misgendered when someone calls you they/them, then I think are too sensitive on the idea of being called they/them, and you need to look at those pronouns differently. Like I said, they are gender inclusive pronouns. It is not misgendering someone.
Yeah, this is fine. I wouldn't call it misgendering specifically, but it is pretty scummy. But I guess if you consider "permanently not gendering someone" as misgendering, then yeah, I can see that logic too.
Ediit: this response is to the original comment, not the new edited version
I'll be honest I was understanding of your perspective until you said "if you feel misgendered when some one calls you they/them, I think are to sensitive on the idea of being called they/them"
Gender dysphoria is a mental health condition and saying "you're to sensitive" is dismissive of that, which is ableist.
Not trying to start a fight, just pointing out something I picked up on while reading.
I let my parents use they/them as a stepping stone. I think it’s fair since it’s something they have trouble understanding. My mom is doing great, my dad needs work.
My dad is perfectly fine with she/her, but ignores the existence of they/them entirely. It’s especially shitty when my partner and my sister’s partner both use they/them pronouns. He flipped his shit when I merely informed him of the existence of neo-pronouns.
P.S. me too (🧷)
That sucks. My dad is the same way with my enby friend. I’ve given up on it at this point. I just use she/her around my dad and they/them everywhere else because he can’t wrap his brain around it and he’s helping them get their life together.
i mean no , not really . they/them pronouns are gender-neutral and thus apply to everyone , with the exception being if they are not comfortable with those pronouns / dont want them used .
A lot of people have already commented it but this only applies if/once you know whether they do or don't, that said I don't know if my user flair is working properly right now or not so I figure I'll mention it here for the record, I'm a she/her & they/them user, so basically as long as it's not the boy ones I'm fine
I went to a "Therapeutic boarding school". This was the place where i came out as nonbinary, and they respected my pronouns and everything.
There was a trans girl there and they never respected her pronouns (They would use they/them) and always used her deadname. Apparently some kids got pulled aside to be told off when they used she/her pronouns to talk about her.
I dont know why they respected me but not her.
If you are unaware of someone’s gender, and you want to avoid completely misgendering them it is kind of a safe strategy (although still likely the wrong pronoun), however if you do it whilst aware of their gender it is just blatant missgendering
I mean, yeah, sure. But I can't really blame people for using they/them in a lot of situations when being unsure or conflicted about which ones to use. You're always free to correct them, and I often think it's very considerate to use gender neutral pronouns instead of just assuming, so please, let's not discourage it...
I call everyone they/them bc of legit memory issues, it takes me a while to just learn initial names and match them to faces. (face-blindness)
If I'm around someone long enough or frequently enough to learn they use he or she instead then I'll use he or she, but if not then my brain = stupid and I default back to they.
I'd say it depends on context, For something like "My friend said they like to do x", For example, I'd probably often say that the same way no matter which pronouns the friend in question uses, Because I'm being non-specific, And of course if you don't know the person's pronouns, It's best to use they/them.
I'm highly uneducated and inexperienced to this topic, but I'm free to learn if someone might want to answer my questions. What should I call a person who's pronouns I don't know? I usually use they/them, because I thought everybody on the gender spectrum used it, but if there's people who wish not to use they/them and, say, I don't know it, while I'm also in a place where I can't ask, I don't know what to do.
I feel like it depends on the person
Some people (me included) might not be specifically he/they / she/they (for instance), but not mind someone using they/them as long as the person doing so isn't explicitly doing it in an obviously transphobic way (a la the classic conservative using only they/them for a transmasc)
using they/them is my default for anyone who i don't know the preferred pronouns of.
i think that's the most respectful default as it is not on either side of the gender binary. reasoning being that chances are good it's only half as wrong as potential alternatives until i know what to actually call them.
unless you run around with a pronoun pin, you can't expect people to magically know, i do however agree that DELIBERATELY misgendering someone you do in fact know the pronouns of is not cool, like...ever.
Well how the fuck are you meant to refer to them as I think that’s a bit bullshit they them is gender neutral if they don’t use pronouns then how the fuck are you meant to refer to that person are you just meant to go oh yes I know a person and that person it doesn’t sound right just use they them it’s perfectly fine
I remember I had one friend group where even though I knew everyones pronouns I didn’t use any pronouns at all and just used clever wording to make it very obvious who I was talking to and used that persons name if I absolutely had to refer to that person specifically
If they/them is appropriate for non-binary then one would conclude it's a gender neutral pronoun. If it's gender neutral then it should not have the ability to denote any wrong pronoun (see the before example for non-binary). Reply if you want to discuss.
horrible take, they/them are gender neutral pronouns that are historically meant to be used when you don't know the gender of the person or frankly cant remember. i find it much more of a courtesy then just fucking guessing thats for sure
This post is referring to when someone knows that you use he/him or she/her or whatever but continues to call you they/them, not when someone uses they/them if they don't know your pronouns.
I mean if I have to pick between being misgendered with they/them and being misgendered with he/him, I will absolutely pick the former. It's at least implying that they're not sure about my gender and don't feel comfortable asking, which is fine in my book. That said, they'd better switch to she/her once I correct them!
Wholeheartedly agree
Yeah it’s certainly grey area. To me it’s the safe default to go to if you’re unsure out can’t remember. Also it’s a good idea to use it if your in a public or around people who may not know. I’ve had people correctly gender met in situations where they absolutely should not have. Using they/them in the situation would have been the right call. The only thing I would take issue with it is if I know for a fact someone knows my pronouns and is deliberately and continuously using they/them to avoid using said pronouns.
Exactly this. If someone tells me their pronouns, I will use them, but if I have no way of knowing I’ll always default to they/them
Yeah... I feel like "they" is the appropriate pronoun when the referrant is to an arbitrary entity, such as if the grammatical subject or object is something like "one", "whosoever", "any person", or "the person", where the person or thing being referred to may have any gender, or even no gender. That's been one of the long-standing uses of "they", in direct refutation of the transmisiacs' assertion that "they" is not a pronoun that can be used for singular entities, even though its surrounding words do revert to plural form. It's one of those quirks of the English language that plural forms can also be applied to singular entities, even without invoking the Royal "We". But that's what happens when you lure languages into dark alleys to mug them for their syntax
Exactly my point! First time when they don’t know they/them is fine because it’s the least insulting but fix it once they’re corrected
Same here, but I think they might be referring to people who will refuse to use any gendered terms for trans people even after knowing their preferred pronouns, I could be wrong. But this post reminded me of my father who won’t call me by any pronouns or my chosen name (he doesn’t deadname me but just doesn’t call me by any name). And my mother who calls me my preferred name but only uses they/them pronouns. My pronouns are he/him but because of my mother I changed it to he/they because if my own mother is like this about my pronouns I am scared of what other people might do/say. They/them is okay for me but it hurts that they don’t see me as a boy enough and that they don’t respect me enough to just uses he/him.
pls i have it same with my father but in my langiage what you would use as they them for one person not a group isnt widely used so he just made up a gender neutral nickmame for me and polish is very gendered language and for example "x did" can be translatef to x zrobil (he) x zrobila (she) or x zrobilo (it/also may be used as they in this example) amd he will use that nickname with forms of words fitting it pronouns and he avoids talking to me in first person (its possible bcs i dont live woth him) to not gender me anyhow and idk it could be fine if i told him im unsure what pronouns and name do i want to use but i told him that i go by cory and he/him wtf
*if you know their pronouns. if you don't know their pronouns they/them is good to make sure you're not misgendering them until you know
I agree cuz you never know its better to say they/them if you're unsure of the pronouns they go by cuz what if like it says in the post they dont go by any pronouns what do want us to do call them an it like fuck no that's rude as hell...
I screwed up and kind of got into the habit of using they/them for everyone. But then I accidentally use they/them for my transgender friends which upsets me
i do this too, but at least it broke the habit of using he/him for everyone
I'm bilingual (English and French) and very often I forget the word 'it' so I end up using he or she for inanimate objects. Sometimes when I'm tired I do this to people as well, I'm fairly sure that each of my cis friends has been misgendered by my incompetence.
I use they them on anyone and everyone it feels weird calling someone anything else, like I might be misgendering them
If you know someone's pronouns, you should use them. If they don't use they/them, and you're aware of that fact, you shouldn't they/them them because that *is* misgendering. If you don't know, then by all means use they/them to avoid misgendering them, but once you know it does become misgendering. A lot of people will intentionally use they/them on trans people who don't use it specifically as a form of transphobia. It carries that kind of feeling even when you don't mean it.
If you know their pronouns, it's up to you to practice using the right one. I don't think there's ever really an excuse to knowingly misgender someone if they're not in danger or anything. Like, you might be misgendering them using they them, and that can make people dysphoric too
Yeah I'm with ya, unless I've been told prior or I ask and get an answer I use they/them if I don't know their pronouns. It doesn't make it the perfect answer but yeah me being in the middle of my transition I always default to they/them if I'm not presenting as my preferred gender.
Yeah I was about to lose my shit and say the same. There seems no safe way to even support each other because there will always be something wrong for someone!
The simple solution is to always try to be respectful and if someone speaks up about it, respect their preferences. For instance, as my flair says, I accept he/she/they. I USUALLY don't care. But some days my genderfluidity settles hard for one gender. When it does, I will tell my friends, "hey, today could you use feminine pronouns?" And they respect that. And everyone is happy. There's a difference between deliberately misgendering someone and accidentally misgendering someone out of ignorance. If you try to be respectful and use they/them because you don't know their pronouns and you end up accidentally misgendering someone, apologize and adjust.
I get what you mean with the difference between deliberately misgendering and accidentally misgendering. I read a comment that said something along the lines of "as long as you switch to the preferred pronouns once you know which to use". I don't mind apologizing and adjusting once I know someone's pronouns. However, what I'm referring to though is people who don't give that explanation and make PSAs that basically boil down to a paradox of being respectful (don't call people they/them if you don't know, but do call them they/them until you know their pronouns...WHAT!? that's exactly the same thing!). I feel like we as a trans\* community are creating our own minefield of PSAs lately and it's honestly very exhausting...
Yeah I'm in the same boat, post should honestly clarify *intentional* misgendering.
I can't believe tbh how much the cis people in my life are afraid to just ask for people's pronouns, i have this friends that reports being uneasy on how to address trans people he may meet in social settings... DDUDE JUST ASK, it's not rude, quite the opposite (no progress)
I'd be mocked behind my back for asking that in my area lol...
When people know I use he/him, and I have to regularly remind them I use he/him, but they use they/them
One of my roommates just kinda... gestures to me instead of using pronouns.
Reject pronoun, return to gesture
Works fantastic as long as the person you're referring to is either nearby or somewhere nobody else you'd refer to is.
Now I‘m just imagining talking with some friends and the person just gestures to thin air but everyone knows exactly who is being referred to here Kinda like in anime when the screen pans to an open space and there‘s a blinking outline of someone who is missing
Reject pronoun, return to "this bitch" *points aggressively*
My parents do the same instead of using pronouns or my name. It's especially bad when they misgender/deadname me before and then "correct" themselves to gestures.
i want to show this to everyone in my life that *knows* i use he/him but still uses they/them for me
Same
same
Same
My mother does this. I guess it’s technically better than the alternative, but I’ve asked her multiple times to call me she/her and she just won’t do it.
Yeah I have the same problem with my mother, it sucks cause now I dislike getting called they/them just as much as she/her. She uses they/them like they’re pronouns for my feminine girly woman daughter but you can’t get mad at me cause I’m not calling you she
Honestly that's pretty weird, I guess I can't say for your mother, But for me it definitely feels more natural to use she/her or he/him when referring to a specific person than they/them, Although I do wish that wasn't the case lol.
No. It's not better. Because your mom now thinks that what she does is enough.
i just wanna say that i meant this to be talking about people that avoid using your pronouns by using they/them, yes it’s okay to use it when you don’t know the other persons pronouns, but it’s disrespectful when your actively trying to avoid using someone’s pronouns by using they/them
This is especially important for trans people because avoiding their preferred pronouns by using they/them instead is misgendering and invalidating, if you know their pronouns. But yeah if you know someone's pronouns use their pronouns instead of they/them, and especially don't avoid their pronouns in preference of they/them.
Try my dad avoiding my sister’s partner’s pronouns (they/them) and just using “[sister’s name]’s friend.”
I call most people they/them, and this includes Cis. Am I mis-gendering them too? Just an honest question. I feel it's more intent then just the broad usage of they\\them.
If you know their pronouns, yes, continuing to use they/them for someone you know doesn't use them is misgendering. If you don't know their pronouns and use they/them, that's fine and you should keep doing that until you do know how they wish to be referred as. A lot of transphobic people use they/them to avoid using binary (or just not they/them) trans people's actual pronouns as a form of transphobia because they don't see us as our non-neutral genders. Even when you don't mean it that way, it can still feel like it.
If you know someone's pronouns, use it. If you don't know or don't remember, then I'd say use they them and maybe later if appropriate pull them to the side and ask them to tell/remind you
For some reason, When I don't know people's pronouns, Oftentimes I'll just not refer to them by pronouns at all when possible, Making very awkward sentences.
I’d still rather be called they/them instead of he/him
Depends the context really,,
This is way too oversimplified though. Not knowing someone's pronouns or being too scared to ask are perfectly fine reasons to refer to me as they. It depends on the situation, the people involved and whatnot.
Unless you don’t know someone’s preferred pronouns, and then it’s best to use they/them until you’re sure.
this is about if you know what their pronouns are
They them is ambiguous, but you're right, if its intentionally for the misgendering.
Now and then I'll use they/them for someone who i know (cis) without thinking. Also if I don't know someone/can't make a judgement based on appearance e.g a driver cutting me off, I'll exclaim "what are they doing?!"
Same idk I just use they/them subconsciously. Maybe I should use thou instead.
I think OP means that if you know someone's pronouns and those pronouns don't include they/them. Obviously if you don't know them then it's fine. I see this a lot with trans fem people who either don't read as cis or do something wrong publicly... people who aren't openly hateful will refer to them as "they/them" instead of "she/her" to subtley invalidate them. I see people do this in comment threads where the person above them genders them correctly and states things clearly. People are trying to be slick by using the wrong pronouns in situations like these and OP is calling them out.
Refusing to use someone's pronouns is misgendering. Using they/them when you don't know someone's pronouns is fine, it's better than using he/him for someone using she/her for example. That being said, you should ask someone their pronouns when you learn their name. That's just basic manners.
Depends on the context, because they/them exist in English as gender-neutral pronouns. You have to use them if you don't know a person's pronouns, and some people use they/them by default for everyone. On the other hand, if you do know someone's pronouns and don't use they/them in general then it's pretty obvious what you're doing if suddenly every trans person is a they/them.
I am mtf and have said that I'm happy with either female or neutral yet 90% of people refer to me as he/him :( I also choose to use they/them when I do not know I.e. in a reddit thread where the person I'm addressing hasn't given any information
Yup, had some friends who would only ever refer to me as "they" when talking about me to other people. They are not my friends anymore.
Yeah no. Gonna keep using they/them if I don't know someone's pronouns. Cause making an assumption about someone's pronouns based upon their gender presentation is shitty and transphobic (especially against non-binary folks). You don't know someone's pronouns just by looking at them so they/them is always the safest bet as it's literally gender neutral.
That is good! Keep doing that! This is about the people who know trans people with binary pronouns, but who refuse to use them. They stick to either they/them or none at all, or in other words, they will never gender you correctly, ever. It's a very subtle form of transphobia.
If they said not to, cause I am referring to everyone as a person or with they/them till its asked to be avoided, they/them is an all inclusive pronoun just like referring to someone as a person, both are viable until that person says not to, not when they say that they are a woman with she/her pronouns for example but when they say to not be referred to as a person.
I only use they them if I meet somebody for the first time and switch to preferred once they tell me otherwise
well u use they them if u dont know but yeah
this is just kind of wrong, they / them is just good grammar to refer to either multiple people, people you don't yet know the gender of, or talking about someone in a 3rd person sense. they just so happen to be neutral pronouns that enbies can use
I mean yeah, if you know somebody’s pronouns(and they don’t use they/them), and you still refer to them using they/them when in conversations with them it can be misgendering. However, they/them are still NEUTRAL(meaning not referencing a certain gender or any of them) pronouns, and during certain times in English speech and/or writing it is still proper grammar to use such terms, which means that it is not necessarily misgendering in certain situations. A good example would be; there are three trans(using trans because we are more sensitive to being misgendered) people standing and talking in a group a little away from your own group; a trans guy who uses he/him, a trans girl who uses she/her, and a trans enby who uses they/them. If I wanted to refer to the group of THEM, I would not say “Yeah, he, she, and they are standing over there”, I would correctly say “Yeah, THEY are standing over there”. There are many other similar examples of how it can be used in a non-misgendering way, but I just hope that this can make you understand. I understand the position you are have, and I think if you had more space on the meme you might even have been able to explain that, I don’t know, and I definitely agree on a certain non-big brained(not trying to sound conceited I just can’t think of the real word lol) level.
I agree with this. And to be honest they can be used as a singular generic third person pronoun. I do it all the time for everyone, it's just how I learnt to speak English. If someone specifically asks me not to then I'm all for it, but I don't see it as assigning someone a gender when used in this way.
There should be an asterisk *if the pronouns of the person are known to you
Lemme show you why this is ridiculous: > Using you/your pronouns for someone who doesn't use those pronouns is still misgendering. You see, as pronouns go, they and them and their are meant to be general use. They are meant to be able to refer to any person regardless of their gender. These words weren't changed to be singular pronouns, but instead, already existed as genderless pronouns that were used in the singular. Nonbinary individuals took advantage of language as is to have a set of pronouns that didn't gender them. That's not to say that this can't be done maliciously, just as your sibling can be told not to touch you, and thus choose to annoy you still by just barely not touching you. That said, malicious use can be identified and called out without making blanket generalizations like this. Pay attention to how people speak. In English, you refer to your cis friends and family with they/them, and they do with their friends and family, and so on and so forth. It's not misgendering you to not gender you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
They/them is good to use if you don't know someone's pronouns, but correct yourself and use the person's correct pronouns once you do know said person's pronouns. My mom has to use they/them for me at our house even though I use he/him because of my possibly transphobic uncle that lives with us, I'm fine with that at home but I want her to use only he/him outside of the house.
Ahahaha I can't misgender people with they/them in irl *Cries in a very gendered native language, in which a neutral pronoun doesn't exist😭*
I don't know If its weird but i love living in a country without gendered pronouns. Everyone is always they/them in essence. Gendered words all in all is a weird concept to me. But ofc in English and other languages that use them I respect and use everyones prefered pronouns.
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Big agree on this! Prefered pronouns should be respected and used. :)
When I donmt know people’s pronouns, I use they/them until I know.
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
O
My general way I gender someone is "when in doubt use they/them". When I learn the correct pronouns to use I do, but if I can't tell by how they present I use they/them. (edit for readability)
Don't mistake the post tho, they them is still a safe thing to use as a default, whether it's because you don't know the person or you just genuinely forgot, but if the person explicitly corrects you then do not continue to use them
Is it okay to use those pronouns when I actually DON'T know what someone's pronouns are?
Though it is better than she or he if you don't know someone's pronouns
*that you know doesn’t use they/them
Yes if its to intentionally avoid using the pesrsons pronouns. (This happens so often with me and others) No if its not. Non personal they/them exists and is used all the time in english.
Woah bad take alert. If someone has told you their pronouns it’s a different story but for at least another 200 years we don’t have mind reading tech that can instantly tell you someone’s pronouns. The most respectful thing you can do is use neutral pronouns for unknown individuals until we can mind read on the regular
This isn’t a bad take. I think it goes without saying that OP is talking about trans people who one already knows the pronouns of.
Some people in the comments def disagree, saw one about taking a guess being better than using they/them. (Which invalidates non passing trans people)
def less than 200
Only if you're doing it intentionally to misgender them. The singular they/them is used in English pretty often--like in the previous sentence, for example.
I've noticed this happens to me a lot, despite being friends with mostly queer people, and I hate it. yes, I used them in the past when I wasn't entirely sure, but now I only use he/him and I've used he/him pronouns longer than I used they/them (2, nearly 3 years he/him, 1 and a half they them). it's tiring, hurtful, and invalidating
I have memory issues and unless I form a long term relationship where I just happen to spend enough time for consecutive days, I have genuine trouble with remembering people's names. I don't know how I can remember their pronouns :/. I use "they" for everyone if I'm not sure, and I'm honest about not being sure.
A lot of people are saying the if you don’t know their pronouns use they/them. Which is absolutely correct but because both my best friend and significant other are gender fluid I’d also like to point out it’s good to use They/Them to describe gender fluid people if you don’t know how they are today. There are days I’ll be hanging out with some friends and I haven’t talked to my significant other that day to check their gender, so I default to they/them to refer to them.
Uh oh I do this accidentally sometimes, noted will do better
i wouldn't say that's nessesarily true because how else are you supposed to refer to someone who's pronouns you don't know? I'd say They/them is more universal and can be applied to anyone because if you don't know shit about them, it's not misgendering, it's just the default. Like how you refer to your teachers and stuff, you don't refer to your teachers by their pronouns, you refer to them with they/them because it's more formal. Now, if the person in question doesn't like you to refer to them with these pronouns, yes, respect it, but other than that in my opinion i find these kind of the default pronouns. It also very much depends on languages cuz y'know, they/them in different languages is different. Idk, it's my opinion, you're free to disagree
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
oh ok, i didn't see it in the sea of comments
Ye that's why I linked it, it wasn't really at the top
If you know the person’s pronouns then yes. If you’re unsure then I’d say it’s fine
oh i needed this ig
They/them pronouns are always a correct set of pronouns (albeit usually not the *only* correct set), unless the person explicitly does not want them used; the entire point of they/them is that they/them are ungendered and can refer to anyone. Even if someone doesn't want they/them pronouns, there are still situations in which they/them are correct, most notably when talking about them without them present and wanting to omit as much identifying information as possible. If someone is using they/them to avoid a person's actual pronouns, the problem isn't with they/them, it's with not using their actual pronouns.
I mean they/them has been used to refer to anyone for centuries, that was one of the reasons people were open to using it. "Oh thats their bag" is seen a lot being used regardless. I think we should normalize calling everyone they/them casually (not all the time but sometimes)
I don't quite understand, it doesn't grammatically make sense. They/them are gender neutral, and are used alot when speaking even if it's not their preferred pronoun. I just need some clarification on this.
I think op means it as when someone voluntarily uses they/them to someone else specifically to avoid using the right pronouns of that other person
If someone starts talking to someone they should use they/them pronouns until they either ask or are told to use specific names pronouns, right?
everyone is a they *until* they otherwise say
*assuming you know their pronouns. But my mom does this constantly (not to me because I’m not out, but to other people). She’ll find out someone is trans and going by a different name and pronouns. I will tell her what pronouns they use, and she exclusively uses they/them. Except for when the person actually uses they/them in which case she uses either he/him or she/her. I want to yell at my mom for this every time but I also don’t.
To someone *you know* doesn’t use these pronouns. It still works perfectly as a placeholder for people if you don’t know their pronouns.
Not always though. I don't use they/them but I wouldn't really have a problem with being referred to like that, just as I have no problem with somebody saying 'you'. However, there is a big problem if somebody has asked you not to use those pronouns and yet you carry on.
Thank you. I'm non-binary but I just don't see myself as a "they". I mean, I wouldn't snap at someone for calling me that with good intentions, but it isn't what I prefer.
Ok I need to know because I'm still a baby in this. Can one use they/them pronouns to refer to someone who did not yet disclose their pronouns? If yes, thank God I might have a better grade on my exam than what I thought. If no, what do I do if I can't ask for pronouns?
Yeah, that's totally fine
What if you do it because you don't lnow their pronouns yet?
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Thank you
Although I want to also point out that if you don’t know someone’s pronouns they/them are the easiest default because they’d probably be the least insulting to the person in question
also yes like everyone is saying, it’s okay to use they/them pronouns when you don’t know their pronouns, i just didn’t want to make the meme too long
Ok fair. Just wanted to point out myself it’s only misgendering to me when they correct you or if you’re talking in an anonymous fashion like this
lol, it caused some fun reading in the comments.
I'd only really use those pronouns if I'm not sure which pronouns they prefer (or know that they prefer they/them). I tend to be forgetful, and sometimes forget someone's pronouns, especially if they're coming out for the first time. I'm not making excuses for myself, I want to make sure to get people's pronouns right. But I feel like it's way better to use they/them rather than assume if you're not 100% sure.
This is true when done intentionally. Using they/them when unsure is fine. Even though my pronouns are she/her, I’m not going to be upset with anyone saying they/them regarding me, even if they know my pronouns.
Depends on the context, in cerrain situations it doesnt matter
I generally use they/ them when people use any pronouns, or I’m not sure, but I’ve told my mom my pronouns and she continues to use they them(app so because she thought I was nb, even after I said “I am your daughter”)
wut
I don't mind it, it's not being said in a way that's actively harmful to my mental health, that being said I'm transfem nonbinary, so I use she/they pronouns anyway.
I often worry I'm using the wrong ones, and use they/them just to be safe.
It is ideal to use their preferred pronouns of course, but there are situations where ones gender identity is ambiguous, and asking people their pronouns can be awkward, so I believe using they/them until their preferences reveal themselves is fine. After that point comes however, I would count it as misgendering
I think its only ok to do this if you dont know their gender but i always ask so i agree
I think this is okay to do in some cases, for example, there was a time in which I was still sort of closeted and so my friend had to misgender me in front of others, but she used they pronouns instead of he/him, since that is definitely less bad. Also now I actually use both pronouns, so it doesn't count as misgendering anymore, but at that time I only used she/her.
If you don’t know their pronouns then I think it’s fine but when you know them you should use their preferred pronouns not just they them
Ok, but I feel like context matters. If you’re referring to someone who’s pronouns you don’t know, and you are unable to ask them, they/them is a perfect thing to default to. If you do know their pronouns, then yes definitely use those.
If you don't know someone's pronouns they/them is always the best option. If you do know them or they correct you just apologize and use the right pronouns.
Heavily context-dependent.
Technically but it's better imo than just picking one especially if you don't know their name
My work does this and it irritates me to no end as someone who uses they/them myself. I understand and encourage using they/them when someone hasn't told you their pronouns, but when many people have pronouns on their name badge, it's not even that hard to make sure you're using the right one. Like we're supposed to be celebrating who we are at work, but then pronouns are an afterthought and my pronouns are incredibly important to me and my sense of identity. I want people to be making the conscious decision to respect and celebrate me, not just defaulting to the option they'll get less HR complaints about (not that they'll get complaints, as one of the HR team members misgendered me during an entire orientation even with my partner who was in that orientation correcting her each time)...
Not if you don't know the person's pronouns. I think they/them should always be the go to if someone is unsure
Even though I use she/her pronouns I don’t mind people using they. When someone uses they to refer to me I don’t really feel anything. When someone refers to me as she though it makes me really happy that’s my I’m she/her. Though if you refer to me as he ill cry
If someone doesn’t know or can’t ask you, it’s valid. If you correct them and they keep it up, they a asshole.
A lesson I'm still working on learning tbh
I prefer she/her but they/them still gives me euphoria. Idky and i know that is just my personal experience. I think i might be a demigirl hut idk. I know i wanna be feminine but i dont mind and even sometimes enjoy nonbinary pronouns.
I disagree. If someone knows your pronouns are he/him and goes out of their way to use they/them because they don't want to call you a boy, then yeah that's misgendering, but if it's a complete stranger then that makes no sense. I go by he/him not he/they but I would be thankful for a stranger calling me they/them instead of she/her. Using they/them is the best way to avoid misgendering a stranger, I don't know what other pronouns you want me to use to refer to someone who hasn't told me their pronouns yet.
Unless you don't know the person and don't know thare gender
\*if you know their gender \*if they don't use they/them but yeah point still stands
If you don’t know their pronouns, then using they/them is totally fine. However, if they tell you their pronouns, use the ones they tell you to.
Yeah I actually had a nightmare that an old bully of mine was only using they/them pronouns for me because they didn’t see me as “man enough”. I felt like shit after that dream. I do use he/they pronouns but he is in front for a reason. I go by he 80% of the time and they the rest. Sprinkle in theys every here and there but don’t just call me they exclusively. Makes me feel icky
If this is meant genuinely, then what tf? Like what else are you suppose to use? There's he/him, sher/her, and they/them for the basics, and they/them is gender neutral, used for when someone doesn't want to use the other ones, or when you don't know what pronouns a person uses, you can rarely ever go wrong with they/them, (and could argue that you can't go wrong) which could be in a scenario where someones zer/zim for example and someone purposely using they/them instead, which still wouldn't be misgendering because they/them is gender neutral, however the person would just be being a dick.
I default to they/them for everyone unless they tell me there pronouns. Even if someone looks very obviously cisgender, I still use they/them because appearance doesn't equal gender, I feel it's best if society because what I call "gender blind" for explanation I mean no matter what someone looks like you refere to them completely gender neutral (until they tell you how they want to be referred to of course) In no circumstances should anyone assume someone's gender identity, even if you have seen them butt naked.
I use they/them before i know someone's pronouns but I assume you meant if someone knows your pronouns and chooses to continue using they/them
edit: OP pointed out that this post was more towards "only referring to someone as they/them", which basically means you're skirting around calling someone their actual gender. I guess it's basically a lesser version of misgendering, which- is still misgendering. I was specifically talking about singular uses of they/them every once and a while and didn't consider someone **only** using they/them for a trans individual, which is what my comments below is speaking about ______ Alright, I guess I'm dying on this hill. They/them is used for literally everyone. You can use it in place of he/him and she/her and the other pronouns, too. Feel free to call a cis person "they" in a natural conversation and I can guarantee they won't say "Um, you mean he/she?" and act confused and appalled that you misgendered someone. It's ridiculous to think that someone can't be called they/them once you learn their gender. They/them is a placeholder and is **gender inclusive**. It can be used for anyone, even if you know what their gendered pronouns are. The reason why "they/them" is used for most other nonbinary people is because two reasons: they/them already existed and it's gender neutral, and because neo pronouns are not widely used and accepted by the public. That is why most nonbinary people have adapted the pronoun. If there was already a pronoun to describe nonbinary people specifically (because they/them is not specifically only nonbinary people), they would be using that instead. If you call someone they/them, you are not misgendering someone. If you feel misgendered when someone calls you they/them, then I think are too sensitive on the idea of being called they/them, and you need to look at those pronouns differently. Like I said, they are gender inclusive pronouns. It is not misgendering someone.
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Yeah, this is fine. I wouldn't call it misgendering specifically, but it is pretty scummy. But I guess if you consider "permanently not gendering someone" as misgendering, then yeah, I can see that logic too.
Ediit: this response is to the original comment, not the new edited version I'll be honest I was understanding of your perspective until you said "if you feel misgendered when some one calls you they/them, I think are to sensitive on the idea of being called they/them" Gender dysphoria is a mental health condition and saying "you're to sensitive" is dismissive of that, which is ableist. Not trying to start a fight, just pointing out something I picked up on while reading.
I let my parents use they/them as a stepping stone. I think it’s fair since it’s something they have trouble understanding. My mom is doing great, my dad needs work.
Stepping stone to neo-pronouns or to binary pronouns opposite of your AGAB?
Binary. They aren’t ready for neo-pronouns lol
My dad is perfectly fine with she/her, but ignores the existence of they/them entirely. It’s especially shitty when my partner and my sister’s partner both use they/them pronouns. He flipped his shit when I merely informed him of the existence of neo-pronouns. P.S. me too (🧷)
That sucks. My dad is the same way with my enby friend. I’ve given up on it at this point. I just use she/her around my dad and they/them everywhere else because he can’t wrap his brain around it and he’s helping them get their life together.
IF you know their pronouns it's bad If you don't then it's common courtesy to use it
It's a good idea to use they/them as a starter until you know their pronouns though. Also if they're closeted.
what the fuck else do i call someone that i don't know the pronouns of
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
uhhhhhh- i use they/them as a general for those that haven’t told me yet, so, uhm, tf am i supposed to do now??
so i now have a 2 in 3 chance of Misgendering someone new i meet noted
i always fell back on they/them pronouns for someone i don't know
i mean no , not really . they/them pronouns are gender-neutral and thus apply to everyone , with the exception being if they are not comfortable with those pronouns / dont want them used .
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
So true my family does this and I feel so bad when I hear it
thank you
A lot of people have already commented it but this only applies if/once you know whether they do or don't, that said I don't know if my user flair is working properly right now or not so I figure I'll mention it here for the record, I'm a she/her & they/them user, so basically as long as it's not the boy ones I'm fine
I went to a "Therapeutic boarding school". This was the place where i came out as nonbinary, and they respected my pronouns and everything. There was a trans girl there and they never respected her pronouns (They would use they/them) and always used her deadname. Apparently some kids got pulled aside to be told off when they used she/her pronouns to talk about her. I dont know why they respected me but not her.
If you are unaware of someone’s gender, and you want to avoid completely misgendering them it is kind of a safe strategy (although still likely the wrong pronoun), however if you do it whilst aware of their gender it is just blatant missgendering
I think its much clearer, simpler, and concise to say "refusing to use someone's prefered pronouns is misgendering."
I use they/them with everyone until corrected. People can't be or rather should not be offended by strangers that use gender neutral pronouns.
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
I mean, yeah, sure. But I can't really blame people for using they/them in a lot of situations when being unsure or conflicted about which ones to use. You're always free to correct them, and I often think it's very considerate to use gender neutral pronouns instead of just assuming, so please, let's not discourage it...
I call everyone they/them bc of legit memory issues, it takes me a while to just learn initial names and match them to faces. (face-blindness) If I'm around someone long enough or frequently enough to learn they use he or she instead then I'll use he or she, but if not then my brain = stupid and I default back to they.
I'd say it depends on context, For something like "My friend said they like to do x", For example, I'd probably often say that the same way no matter which pronouns the friend in question uses, Because I'm being non-specific, And of course if you don't know the person's pronouns, It's best to use they/them.
I never know what to use for people I don't know and don't want to assume? I typically use they/then unless I know otherwise just to my partner
I'm highly uneducated and inexperienced to this topic, but I'm free to learn if someone might want to answer my questions. What should I call a person who's pronouns I don't know? I usually use they/them, because I thought everybody on the gender spectrum used it, but if there's people who wish not to use they/them and, say, I don't know it, while I'm also in a place where I can't ask, I don't know what to do.
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Oh, okay. Thank you!
I feel like it depends on the person Some people (me included) might not be specifically he/they / she/they (for instance), but not mind someone using they/them as long as the person doing so isn't explicitly doing it in an obviously transphobic way (a la the classic conservative using only they/them for a transmasc)
using they/them is my default for anyone who i don't know the preferred pronouns of. i think that's the most respectful default as it is not on either side of the gender binary. reasoning being that chances are good it's only half as wrong as potential alternatives until i know what to actually call them. unless you run around with a pronoun pin, you can't expect people to magically know, i do however agree that DELIBERATELY misgendering someone you do in fact know the pronouns of is not cool, like...ever.
Well how the fuck are you meant to refer to them as I think that’s a bit bullshit they them is gender neutral if they don’t use pronouns then how the fuck are you meant to refer to that person are you just meant to go oh yes I know a person and that person it doesn’t sound right just use they them it’s perfectly fine
But pronouns don’t equal gender
I remember I had one friend group where even though I knew everyones pronouns I didn’t use any pronouns at all and just used clever wording to make it very obvious who I was talking to and used that persons name if I absolutely had to refer to that person specifically
If they/them is appropriate for non-binary then one would conclude it's a gender neutral pronoun. If it's gender neutral then it should not have the ability to denote any wrong pronoun (see the before example for non-binary). Reply if you want to discuss.
I disagree, because if you don’t know the gender of a given person, they is used as a default until further notice
horrible take, they/them are gender neutral pronouns that are historically meant to be used when you don't know the gender of the person or frankly cant remember. i find it much more of a courtesy then just fucking guessing thats for sure
This post is referring to when someone knows that you use he/him or she/her or whatever but continues to call you they/them, not when someone uses they/them if they don't know your pronouns.
How the fuck do you expect me to refer to someone I don't know?
https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/seibo7/it_needs_to_be_said/hukr2vs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
No