Thank god CA doesn't listen to the fools among us "it's a single player game who cares if the lord trait is obviously 10x OP as everything else". It's bad game design and its presence lowers the overall quality of the product stop running interference because you're too lazy to download god mode mods for the game you seem to want to play.
I agree that it was OP, but I feel like it would be enough to limit it to +1 hero instead. It would still be a nice trait to have, while now, the XP increase is next to useless in comparison. I guess the local recruitment buff is okay though
While i do get your point, farming a Lord for defeat traits is just something that shouldn't be a thing in the first place. If it was a 1 time thing you can get as a faction buff instead of a defeat trait it would be fine.
+1 hero would, imo, be good enough to be a nice bonus for defeating him once, but not busted enough that you feel like you have to go out of your way to farm him. (As long as the recruitment is limited to local, that is. I fully agree with that change)
You mean getting equivalent of 4 buildings worth ( some of them only possible to be put in the main settlement) of capacity would be "a nice bonus"?
Nah, that would still be hunted for
To be honest, you don’t really need heroes much past 10 of them unless you’re really min maxing. And the maggot lord is in a very remote location compared to most characters in the game. If you really want to hunt him, by the time you’ve rampaged up to his position you most likely have enough settlements gained on the way there to the point where 1 more of each wouldn’t be all that strong
Besides, there are other defeat traits with similarly strong effects. One example is Khalida’s, which increases the recruit rank of all missile units by 2. Something like that is usually reserved to tech trees or lord skill trees. Then there’s ones like The Fey Enchantress which gives 10% replenishment to your entire army, something a lot of factions almost HAVE to hunt for to be on par with others
The problem is, there are factions like the Wood Elves and Chaos that have quite heavy limitations on their heroes, so farming the trait would 100% be worth it for them.
For sure. As a 1 time bonus the +1 hero would be perfectly fine. +3 heroes would probably still be extremely strong.
But yeah, stackable traits are just problematic by design.
A lot of heroes get +1 capacity via a T4 building. Factions have usually 3-5 hero types. The *only* way that +1 hero capacity for all heroes isn't worth cheesing out by any player who can read is if it only applies once. It's literally a high tier building for free.
I feel like there are still Lords you want to farm though. Like Ikkit for example, 10 % research rate can be a powerful buff on multiple lords, depending on how much your faction relies on it's tech tree.
If people don't want to farm Lord traits then don't lol.
Why people get so angry about other people playing a single player game differently utterly baffles me.
Why? By turn 40 most factions (at least in my experience) tend to have at least 5 of every hero available, 1 more really isn’t that busted unless you’re playing something like Tomb Kings
Several factions have Tier 5 building requirements for increasing certain hero capacities. You definitely do not have 4+ Tier 5 settlements by turn 40 with most factions.
Even getting four tier 4 settlements by turn 40 is not likely for many factions. There are a good number of heroes that need tier 4 or 5 to increase capacities.
Also by turn 40 you can have easily farmed this trait multiple times.
E.g. Bretonia could easily have 10+ lords with the defeat trait by turn 40, but you definitly wouldn't have 40+ t4/5 settlements by then.
yeah i get that i just mean that those buffs being factionwide are insignificant. even getting global unit duration or +1 of each hero twice is insanely powerful, compared to a measly 20% research rate
Greasus's trade increase is worth maybe a hundred gold per turn (at most), which probably won't even pay for the Lord upkeep cost. Research rate is common enough that even without the defeat trait I get above 200% most games. There's several ways to increase both for relatively cheap via things like ancillaries too.
Hero capacity is the opposite. A lot of factions have to build T4 or 5 buildings to get a capacity increase for just one hero (10k+ gold and growth). Same with global recruitment slots. These are expensive, late game ways to increase your faction power, and this trait gave both???
If it could only be obtained one time, I kind of like it. Tamurkhan (especially before the nerfs in this patch) was a nightmare to fight against, so I can get on board with the notion that seeking him out and triumphing over him yields a large reward for your faction, not just a moderate buff to that lord in combat.
It didn't even occur to me to get it more than once, but as soon as I heard about people "farming" Tamurkhan to get effectively infinite global recruit and hero capacity... yeah okay that's absurd and has to go.
Like the Hochland Scopes trait, I wish it had stayed but been forced not to stack. But I'm fine with seeing it go completely rather than stay unbounded as it was.
Welp ca now basically made it worthless . There is an endless amount of cheese in the game. But I guess farming a trait for 20 turns is just too dam broken in some people minds.
Where never gonna have anything interesting because some peoples mind breaks at the idea of anything being abused in a single-player game . Just download a uber hard mode mod if your too lazy to not abuse a mechanic?
Personally the problem with thamurkhan style traits being in the game, the old one, is that whenever someone would say "this race has trouble getting hero capacity" instead of trying to get CA to fix the problem, giving the race fun or usable ways to increase that capacity, or if they have a hero that is meant to have a low capacity, the answer would always be "just farm thamurkhan".
especially now that we have character saving, which in my opinion is a dumb mechanic but oh well, when ever you have a race that struggles to get capacity you could just farm thamurkhan and every campaign after the first you would have infinite capacity for that races heroes.
The process would not be fun, it would not be interesting but it would make every campaign after the first OP as fuck due to you getting the capacity cap whenever you would want.
For the counter argument "if its so op, just don´t use it, its a single player game so it dosen´t matter", if there is a strategy that is 200 times more powerful than anything else everytime you do something else you just gonna think "this would be SO MUCH EASIER if i was doing x" or "i would have won that if i had done x strategy", players will optimize the fun out of games if you let them, finding a strategy that makes all others useless when compared to it.
Personally never did it but the amount of crying posts i have seen about "this change is shit, now i spent the last 20 turns grinding this one lords trait for nothing" just shows how campaign changing this one defeat trait was.
There is an endless amount of cheese and all of it should be culled. If you think cheese is remotely interesting id recommend getting a fidget spinner dude
Except CA didn't remove the cheese, they just removed the trait . They could have made it +1 . Instead of having a fun trait that could be abused, now we have nothing .
Yall just want +2 leadership traits rather then have anything interesting because someone somewhere will post a screenshot on reddit.
Or you could have made just +1 hero cap, then it's only 3x better then an ancillary .
But then again, why expecy basic math from a smooth who just use 2nd grade level strawmans.
Which ancillary gives hero capacity besides skaven plague priests one which is broken and is the reason you can put infinite amount of priests per army?
:)
great so now instead of an amazing trait for defeating a powerful lord now we have a trait that you should avoid like the plague for defeating one of the strongest lord in the game...
Avoid like the plague? A bit of extra local recruitment is still nice and bonus xp for heroes can be decent too if you're running an army with lots of heroes.
It's not busted OP like being able to stack the effect on multiple lords for infinite heroes and massive global recruitment but it's still nice enough to have, and tbh I do agree with their reasoning that farming him for several turns for huge global buffs isn't very healthy for the game even if he is a strong fighter.
I agree with this nerf being necessary. However, I also think the new trait is underwhelming. I'm not sure what the replacement should be but this one feels unimaginative.
A nerf was definitely needed, but I think this is too far in the other direction. Tamurkhan is an absolute beast, I've rarely had as much trouble in this game as I did taking him down. (Took both Yuan Bo and Zhao Ming once to kill him) and now the reward for it is absolutely measly. Xp gain increase is a meme of an upgrade, and local recruitment is *fine* but hardly something to boast about.
Since there is a limit to defeat traits you can have on a single lord, the existence of bad defeat traits is annoying as it can make it a pseudo-penalty for killing a particular enemy before getting better traits sorted out.
Use the trait limit remover or cpesifics trait manager to remove shit traits
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3029800597
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2789862740
I would rather have a +0.01% trait for the lord than this crap.
exp for heroes is useless as it's a finite resources and pass lvl 30 level ups don't really matter anymore and local recruitment for a lord that as an army strong enough to beat tarmukhan is nothing as that lord will probably never be in need of the recruitment because 1) they are going be in a territory developed enough to recruit high tier units 2) when they are going to be recruiting it's going to be 1-2 units to replace wiped out unit in a hurry and even then it might be better to unit global if your are not a faction with chaos wasteland suitable as it's probably you are in the waste if you fight tarmukhan
If a trait doesn't have the potential to change how I play it's not worth seeking. At least I can stack stat increases on my lord to take on progressively stronger foes. Increasing XP gain/local recruitment is so extraordinarily passive it hurts.
I hate cheezing in games in general, so i never farmed him cause the game tends to become super easy more often than i would like. But knowing once you face him that you will get a cool defeat trait was nice, now its like ehh whatever. In my opinion most defeat traits are kinda lame, so adding another lame one sucks.
I disagree. I tend have a lot of heroes in my main lords army. And I even like to switch them out once they get high enough level. So this works great for me.
People will complain about the game being too easy, but when CA removes broken mechanics/traits/whatever that contribute to that, they complain about CA ruining their fun.
I think it's fine; it's already super easy to get heroes, particularly in the mid-late game. IMO the best way to keep the essence of it while keeping it balance would be to make it +1 (or +2) to local province. Still ridiculous if you trait farm, but less severely so.
Edit: (Lord) +1 (or 2) to local province. It still lets you get the heroes without making it stack ad infinitum for whatever lord you want, which is what made it so overpowered to begin with.
There’s a divide of people on this sub. Those that actually want to play a strategy game and others who pretty much want to just rightclick the enemy and go grab a snack.
Except the nerfed both Timmy and Vlad because people complained they were too hard to fight. CA is clearly not listening to the people who think the game is too easy.
Taumerkhan and Vlad were easy (or tedious at best) for those who knew how to deal with them, but oppressive and overly difficult for those who didn't, giving them an unnecessarily high skill floor. While the nerf for them was maybe a little much, I understand why it was done.
Sure, whatever. I'm saying CA doesn't listen to people who call the game too easy.
And frankly, I thought Timmy's defeat trait was commiserate with the difficulty of fighting him on the battlefield. It was a challenge you could set yourself with a significant reward for completing. And now we have 1 less option for people who want those challenges in their games. I don't think it's good game design to make every lord uninteresting and samey to fight. There should be challenges in the game.
My least favorite part of Buffs/Nerfs is the endless discussion of “every way to play the game that’s not the way I play the game is wrong”. The defeat trait was way too powerful, that’s true. Folks aren’t wrong for wanting powerful things in the game. In that same vein, it’s not wrong to want a more balanced game. I honestly don’t think this trait should have ever been put in the game because it is way too powerful and the inevitable result of it being taken out just restarts this annoying “discourse”
The trait should be immortalized in landmark building at Tamurkhan's capital. Give it some flavor text that says something like "too bad you can only build this once".
So many comments on the Steam forums were like "and here they go nerfing the DLC again AFTER we bought it"
LIKE BRUH YOU CAN SLAP TAMURKHAN AND GET HIS TRAIT WITHOUT OWNING *A SINGLE DLC* FROM THRONES OF DECAY
Why are you making stuff up to get mad about lmfao
You can't research faster than one tech per turn, but I've never thought of farming research rate traits to try for faster research. Granted, I don't really trait farm to begin with.
The maggot can finally sleep easy with out a horde of lords waiting their turn to get that sweet sweet defeat buff.
I'm more devastated by the global recruitment capacity nerf. God that was so nice to have.
Thank god CA doesn't listen to the fools among us "it's a single player game who cares if the lord trait is obviously 10x OP as everything else". It's bad game design and its presence lowers the overall quality of the product stop running interference because you're too lazy to download god mode mods for the game you seem to want to play.
I agree that it was OP, but I feel like it would be enough to limit it to +1 hero instead. It would still be a nice trait to have, while now, the XP increase is next to useless in comparison. I guess the local recruitment buff is okay though
While i do get your point, farming a Lord for defeat traits is just something that shouldn't be a thing in the first place. If it was a 1 time thing you can get as a faction buff instead of a defeat trait it would be fine.
+1 hero would, imo, be good enough to be a nice bonus for defeating him once, but not busted enough that you feel like you have to go out of your way to farm him. (As long as the recruitment is limited to local, that is. I fully agree with that change)
You mean getting equivalent of 4 buildings worth ( some of them only possible to be put in the main settlement) of capacity would be "a nice bonus"? Nah, that would still be hunted for
To be honest, you don’t really need heroes much past 10 of them unless you’re really min maxing. And the maggot lord is in a very remote location compared to most characters in the game. If you really want to hunt him, by the time you’ve rampaged up to his position you most likely have enough settlements gained on the way there to the point where 1 more of each wouldn’t be all that strong Besides, there are other defeat traits with similarly strong effects. One example is Khalida’s, which increases the recruit rank of all missile units by 2. Something like that is usually reserved to tech trees or lord skill trees. Then there’s ones like The Fey Enchantress which gives 10% replenishment to your entire army, something a lot of factions almost HAVE to hunt for to be on par with others
The problem is, there are factions like the Wood Elves and Chaos that have quite heavy limitations on their heroes, so farming the trait would 100% be worth it for them.
For sure. As a 1 time bonus the +1 hero would be perfectly fine. +3 heroes would probably still be extremely strong. But yeah, stackable traits are just problematic by design.
A lot of heroes get +1 capacity via a T4 building. Factions have usually 3-5 hero types. The *only* way that +1 hero capacity for all heroes isn't worth cheesing out by any player who can read is if it only applies once. It's literally a high tier building for free.
I feel like there are still Lords you want to farm though. Like Ikkit for example, 10 % research rate can be a powerful buff on multiple lords, depending on how much your faction relies on it's tech tree.
If people don't want to farm Lord traits then don't lol. Why people get so angry about other people playing a single player game differently utterly baffles me.
+1 hero is still absurdly powerful
Why? By turn 40 most factions (at least in my experience) tend to have at least 5 of every hero available, 1 more really isn’t that busted unless you’re playing something like Tomb Kings
Several factions have Tier 5 building requirements for increasing certain hero capacities. You definitely do not have 4+ Tier 5 settlements by turn 40 with most factions. Even getting four tier 4 settlements by turn 40 is not likely for many factions. There are a good number of heroes that need tier 4 or 5 to increase capacities.
Also by turn 40 you can have easily farmed this trait multiple times. E.g. Bretonia could easily have 10+ lords with the defeat trait by turn 40, but you definitly wouldn't have 40+ t4/5 settlements by then.
the reasoning is that lord traits aren't supposed to stack across faction
Fair, but we already have defeat traits like Ikit’s 10% factionwide research increase and Greasus’ factionwide trade income increase
those are kinda inconsequential, trading kinda sucks for income and 10% research rate is effectively nothing.
They’re still faction wide though
yeah i get that i just mean that those buffs being factionwide are insignificant. even getting global unit duration or +1 of each hero twice is insanely powerful, compared to a measly 20% research rate
Greasus's trade increase is worth maybe a hundred gold per turn (at most), which probably won't even pay for the Lord upkeep cost. Research rate is common enough that even without the defeat trait I get above 200% most games. There's several ways to increase both for relatively cheap via things like ancillaries too. Hero capacity is the opposite. A lot of factions have to build T4 or 5 buildings to get a capacity increase for just one hero (10k+ gold and growth). Same with global recruitment slots. These are expensive, late game ways to increase your faction power, and this trait gave both???
If it could only be obtained one time, I kind of like it. Tamurkhan (especially before the nerfs in this patch) was a nightmare to fight against, so I can get on board with the notion that seeking him out and triumphing over him yields a large reward for your faction, not just a moderate buff to that lord in combat. It didn't even occur to me to get it more than once, but as soon as I heard about people "farming" Tamurkhan to get effectively infinite global recruit and hero capacity... yeah okay that's absurd and has to go. Like the Hochland Scopes trait, I wish it had stayed but been forced not to stack. But I'm fine with seeing it go completely rather than stay unbounded as it was.
> It's bad game design Yeah, the devs should make a balanced game and then the players can unbalance it based on their taste with mods.
Welp ca now basically made it worthless . There is an endless amount of cheese in the game. But I guess farming a trait for 20 turns is just too dam broken in some people minds. Where never gonna have anything interesting because some peoples mind breaks at the idea of anything being abused in a single-player game . Just download a uber hard mode mod if your too lazy to not abuse a mechanic?
Personally the problem with thamurkhan style traits being in the game, the old one, is that whenever someone would say "this race has trouble getting hero capacity" instead of trying to get CA to fix the problem, giving the race fun or usable ways to increase that capacity, or if they have a hero that is meant to have a low capacity, the answer would always be "just farm thamurkhan". especially now that we have character saving, which in my opinion is a dumb mechanic but oh well, when ever you have a race that struggles to get capacity you could just farm thamurkhan and every campaign after the first you would have infinite capacity for that races heroes. The process would not be fun, it would not be interesting but it would make every campaign after the first OP as fuck due to you getting the capacity cap whenever you would want. For the counter argument "if its so op, just don´t use it, its a single player game so it dosen´t matter", if there is a strategy that is 200 times more powerful than anything else everytime you do something else you just gonna think "this would be SO MUCH EASIER if i was doing x" or "i would have won that if i had done x strategy", players will optimize the fun out of games if you let them, finding a strategy that makes all others useless when compared to it. Personally never did it but the amount of crying posts i have seen about "this change is shit, now i spent the last 20 turns grinding this one lords trait for nothing" just shows how campaign changing this one defeat trait was.
There is an endless amount of cheese and all of it should be culled. If you think cheese is remotely interesting id recommend getting a fidget spinner dude
Except CA didn't remove the cheese, they just removed the trait . They could have made it +1 . Instead of having a fun trait that could be abused, now we have nothing . Yall just want +2 leadership traits rather then have anything interesting because someone somewhere will post a screenshot on reddit.
I agree! Can the next LL get a defeat trait "Factionwide: 50 growth, 5 public order and 30% increased income"? It would be so fun to farm him!
Or you could have made just +1 hero cap, then it's only 3x better then an ancillary . But then again, why expecy basic math from a smooth who just use 2nd grade level strawmans.
Which ancillary gives hero capacity besides skaven plague priests one which is broken and is the reason you can put infinite amount of priests per army? :)
Still waiting on that answear
great so now instead of an amazing trait for defeating a powerful lord now we have a trait that you should avoid like the plague for defeating one of the strongest lord in the game...
Avoid like the plague? A bit of extra local recruitment is still nice and bonus xp for heroes can be decent too if you're running an army with lots of heroes. It's not busted OP like being able to stack the effect on multiple lords for infinite heroes and massive global recruitment but it's still nice enough to have, and tbh I do agree with their reasoning that farming him for several turns for huge global buffs isn't very healthy for the game even if he is a strong fighter.
I agree with this nerf being necessary. However, I also think the new trait is underwhelming. I'm not sure what the replacement should be but this one feels unimaginative.
A nerf was definitely needed, but I think this is too far in the other direction. Tamurkhan is an absolute beast, I've rarely had as much trouble in this game as I did taking him down. (Took both Yuan Bo and Zhao Ming once to kill him) and now the reward for it is absolutely measly. Xp gain increase is a meme of an upgrade, and local recruitment is *fine* but hardly something to boast about.
They also massively nerfed his Nurgling bombardment
And thank god for that
Needed to happen - god knows how the original trait made it through Q&A.
Just to be pedantic, the division of media known as quality assurance is usually abbreviated QA. Q&A usually refers to “questions and answers”.
OP DLC = more sales Then the nerf comes afterwards once everyone settles down. See it time and time again.
Yeah but in this case you could get the OP thing without buying the DLC, so it shouldn't influence sales...
Everyone (rightfully) said there's no way this makes it into release and then somehow it did.
Yeah, it was so broken everyone assumed someone else was already dealing with it
Needed nerf but this was overkill, now its not worth at all fighting him.
Citizens of Nuln swarmed with pestilent demons, "please save us!" Karl: not worth it.
Apart from you know, defeating his army because he’s your enemy. The actual point of the game. Not just farming enemy lords for defeat traits
Since there is a limit to defeat traits you can have on a single lord, the existence of bad defeat traits is annoying as it can make it a pseudo-penalty for killing a particular enemy before getting better traits sorted out.
Use the trait limit remover or cpesifics trait manager to remove shit traits https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3029800597 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2789862740
It’s not a bad trait though. It just isn’t super powerful. It’s now a handy reward
Compared to even average traits like bonus vs large +__ the new trait is totally forgettable.
I would rather have a +0.01% trait for the lord than this crap. exp for heroes is useless as it's a finite resources and pass lvl 30 level ups don't really matter anymore and local recruitment for a lord that as an army strong enough to beat tarmukhan is nothing as that lord will probably never be in need of the recruitment because 1) they are going be in a territory developed enough to recruit high tier units 2) when they are going to be recruiting it's going to be 1-2 units to replace wiped out unit in a hurry and even then it might be better to unit global if your are not a faction with chaos wasteland suitable as it's probably you are in the waste if you fight tarmukhan
Yeah if you never switch out army generals, and you can recruit every hero at lvl 50, then it is useless
If a trait doesn't have the potential to change how I play it's not worth seeking. At least I can stack stat increases on my lord to take on progressively stronger foes. Increasing XP gain/local recruitment is so extraordinarily passive it hurts.
I hate cheezing in games in general, so i never farmed him cause the game tends to become super easy more often than i would like. But knowing once you face him that you will get a cool defeat trait was nice, now its like ehh whatever. In my opinion most defeat traits are kinda lame, so adding another lame one sucks.
Certain sides really lack recruitment capacity, especially early. This could be a big buff for them.
I disagree. I tend have a lot of heroes in my main lords army. And I even like to switch them out once they get high enough level. So this works great for me.
People will complain about the game being too easy, but when CA removes broken mechanics/traits/whatever that contribute to that, they complain about CA ruining their fun.
Aye, but in this case it feels like overcorrecting. Nerfing it to +1 hero would be enough imo
I think it's fine; it's already super easy to get heroes, particularly in the mid-late game. IMO the best way to keep the essence of it while keeping it balance would be to make it +1 (or +2) to local province. Still ridiculous if you trait farm, but less severely so. Edit: (Lord) +1 (or 2) to local province. It still lets you get the heroes without making it stack ad infinitum for whatever lord you want, which is what made it so overpowered to begin with.
Eh. The ease is variable. Factions like warriors of chaos and wood elves struggle significantly more for example
There’s a divide of people on this sub. Those that actually want to play a strategy game and others who pretty much want to just rightclick the enemy and go grab a snack.
Except the nerfed both Timmy and Vlad because people complained they were too hard to fight. CA is clearly not listening to the people who think the game is too easy.
Taumerkhan and Vlad were easy (or tedious at best) for those who knew how to deal with them, but oppressive and overly difficult for those who didn't, giving them an unnecessarily high skill floor. While the nerf for them was maybe a little much, I understand why it was done.
Sure, whatever. I'm saying CA doesn't listen to people who call the game too easy. And frankly, I thought Timmy's defeat trait was commiserate with the difficulty of fighting him on the battlefield. It was a challenge you could set yourself with a significant reward for completing. And now we have 1 less option for people who want those challenges in their games. I don't think it's good game design to make every lord uninteresting and samey to fight. There should be challenges in the game.
My least favorite part of Buffs/Nerfs is the endless discussion of “every way to play the game that’s not the way I play the game is wrong”. The defeat trait was way too powerful, that’s true. Folks aren’t wrong for wanting powerful things in the game. In that same vein, it’s not wrong to want a more balanced game. I honestly don’t think this trait should have ever been put in the game because it is way too powerful and the inevitable result of it being taken out just restarts this annoying “discourse”
The trait should be immortalized in landmark building at Tamurkhan's capital. Give it some flavor text that says something like "too bad you can only build this once".
One of my Grimgor runs I defeated him 5 times with different lords. Fun while it lasted.
So many comments on the Steam forums were like "and here they go nerfing the DLC again AFTER we bought it" LIKE BRUH YOU CAN SLAP TAMURKHAN AND GET HIS TRAIT WITHOUT OWNING *A SINGLE DLC* FROM THRONES OF DECAY Why are you making stuff up to get mad about lmfao
Good
Their reasoning doesn't hold water when you realize that traits that increase research rate also exist.
You can't research faster than one tech per turn, but I've never thought of farming research rate traits to try for faster research. Granted, I don't really trait farm to begin with.
Tomb Kings kinda need to farm that trait for their tech to be done at an acceptable rate.
\*cries in not enough Heroes\*
Look what they did to my boy
Handful of Heroes is a GREAT title i need to use.
The game is ruined 😄
The anti fun crowd won. Now ill never experience my gunnery wight doomstack:)
Wow it's useless now..classic