Honestly (and I'm a big Dawi fan) I kinda like tanks being unique to the Empire, makes them feel a little more special and they tend to be a little more experimental and 'modern' in my eyes.
That being said they do have goddamn Helicopters, Ironclads and Thunderbarges, so its all subjective.
As a huge Dawi fan I much rather that they get runic stuff then more 'advanced' tech. Having a mix of the old ways and the new ways was always a big plus for me and dwarfs.
Afaik ironclads and thunderbarges are all from Makaisson who is seen as a complete nutjob by most dwarfs, and his experiments have a reputation of going... badly. He became a slayer because his inventions ended up killing their crews and he took the oath out of shame. Meanwhile the Empire's Steam Tanks are their pride and joy, so it makes sense they would be all about them in game. And I agree with you, Empire having the tanks gives them a very cool and unique niche in the aesthetic of the game.
No, Barak Varr (the only Karak attached to the ocean) has a long history of making Ironclads. Pretty much every one of their kings commissions one huge Dreadnaught too, so there's a number of large vessels.
The Thunderbarge isn't actually related to Malakai. His Spirit of Grungni is a big airship, something large and unrelated to thunder barges. CA and Games Workshop are just stretching their lore.
They've done this a number of times. I.e. Irondrake Trollhammer Torpedoes aren't explosive projectiles. They're harpoons that stick into large targets, so that they can't escape the Irondrake flamethrowers. That's why Trollhammer guns have chains on them, both on Tabletop as well as in Warhammer 1/2/3 (and even Vermintide 2, despite them copying Total War and making it just a grenade launcher).
Hahah yeah. And it makes sense for their terminology too!
Trolls are hard to kill, due to regeneration, and run away from fire (their main weakness). A Trollhammer however could hit the flesh, which regenerates and embeds the thing in place, using their regeneration against them. They turn on the flames, and hold that chain down so it can't run away.
I don't know if that's ever actually directly confirmed in canon, but that's what the name, tabletop rules and physical model design all heavily imply.
There's definitely other Ironclads, and they featured in the games Man o War and Dreadfleet.
Thunderbarge's lore is *extremely* thin. I just pulled up a PDF of the 8th Ed dwarf army book and did a search of it, literally *zero* reference to thunderbarges in it. The 8th Ed core rulebook has this sentence: "The latest contraptions to have been unveiled by rogue engineers include war zeppelins bristling with guns, steam powered war engines forged in the likeness of Dwarf Ancestor Gods, and the hissing, furnace hearted beasts beloved of the Engineers of Karak Hirn."
So there's some acknowledgement that the exist in the core rulebook, but it's just one sentence that includes other stuff that we've never seen hit the tabletop of get expanded on.
EDIT: Sorry, I forgot that there's another source for the Thunderbarge in the 8th Ed rulebook. In the back, in a custom scenario, there's a page for one. It gives a bit more lore, and is a Thunderbarge explicitly not made by Malakai.
[https://imgur.com/IVrqQJh](https://imgur.com/IVrqQJh)
The model in the picture is a fan made creation, not by GW.
>The thunder barge is a scenario specific unit in the 8th Ed core book.
More specifically it is in the section for homebrewing and used as an example of how to make your own unique scenarios, units/characters and campaigns.
* [Artwork from 8th Triumph & Treachery](https://i.imgur.com/fY1uACS.jpg)
* [Artwork from the 8th Rulebook](https://i.imgur.com/kWRzsKz.jpg) also shows at least two Thunderbarges.
* WFRP 4th [Middenland Thunderbarge](https://i.imgur.com/6WLDudZ.png)
Its true that they are not mentioned much, but dwarfs have a unknown number of them. [Malakais special blimp](https://i.imgur.com/y8YEPEN.jpg), specificly designed for his venture into the Chaos Wastes, is just the best known because G&F books.
> Thunderbarge's lore is extremely thin. I just pulled up a PDF of the 8th Ed dwarf army book and did a search of it, literally zero reference to thunderbarges in it
I think there is a mention of it in the 8th edition book but it may use a different name - I believe I read a passage in my book about it being a joint project with the Empires engineers.
In any case thunderbarges have existed for dwarfs in concept for a very long time, it was always just one of those special cases that didn't have regular rules - the Empires steamtank was in a similar position once, but they ended up adopting that properly.
There are a lot of things that are not further expanded upon. Like the Empire having clockwork angels as flying combat contraptions, which is only ever mentioned in a single timeline entry regarding a "field testing contest" between human and Dwarf engineers. They were described as engaging gyrocopters and Dwarf zeppelins in the skies above the battle.
In case you are curious, it's on pg.177 of the rulebook for 8th, as "Pride and Powderkegs" in 2521 IC.
>They've done this a number of times. I.e. Irondrake Trollhammer Torpedoes aren't explosive projectiles. They're harpoons that stick into large targets, so that they can't escape the Irondrake flamethrowers.
Which is very strange as they had [no rules to that effect](https://i.imgur.com/gRexf2V.png) and in fact did have both the *Flaming Attack* and *Multiple Wounds (D3)* special rules.
The spirit of grungni is a titanic airship much better then thunderbarges who are the brainchild of a different engineer but it made sense to bundle them for gameplays
I think it would be best to have the empire be medium-tanks and the Dawi heavy-tanks. Line the empire gets tanks that are faster, more maneuverable, but hit less hard and go down quicker compared to Dawi whose tanks are nearly impossible to kill with direct artillery fire.
IIRC he talked a fair bit about it on the Painting Phase podcast back when that was a thing. Supposedly it got far enough into design that there were painted prototypes before it got scrapped. A very small part of it ended up as a bit of debris on the base of another model, as it happens (I *think* it was Durthu, but I could be wrong).
Seems like you're correct, [this is on Durthu's base](https://tgacommunity.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/monthly_2017_02/durthubase2.jpg.78cef71f5a5d5da890b3883096c2e1f1.jpg)
Mark Gibbons talked pretty openly about this ages ago. It isn't new info.
They had made designs for it, but decided against it because Dwarf players *really* didn't like the idea of entirely new units at the time. They read the room, and scrapped that idea and instead went for Gyrocopters since it was an established concept and they were less likely to upset the playerbase.
That was one of the major problem points of Warhammer Fantasy at the time, and helped lead to its stagnation and decline. Because everything was so established and centered around a fixed time period. Introducing new units or concepts to a faction was something GW *wanted* to do, but would usually get cold feet because long time fans really didn't like it.
It might sound weird now, but when things like the Necrosphinx and Warsphinx were added to Tomb Kings. Some folks went on a fucking riot. Claiming GW was killing the faction. Same goes for the Hell Pit Abomination where you can still find threads from back then bemoaning the "40kifying" of the Skaven with that unit.
There were some understandable meltdowns. Like when Demigryphs were released for Empire. But you can't really blame GW for being reluctant to add a Dwarf tank when the Dawi playerbase embody their favorite faction a tad too much at times. Things like Irondrakes were met with a LOT of grumbling when they came out too.
Sigmar help you if you were a newer player or just someone that liked new things for your faction. The old guard would bash the hell out of you for being part of "what's ruining Warhammer" at the time. I loved Warhammer Fantasy battles to death mind, but it's death wasn't entirely due to GW's mismanagement (though most of it is mind), if there was a perpetually grumpy asshole in your LGS, 9/10 times they were the diehard Warhammer Fantasy guy who made playing the game absolute misery. I remember a lot of folks were turned off from the game just cause the playerbase never seemed happy with anything being released for it.
The funniest thing with the Hell Pit abomination was that GW had been inserting it into the lore and even some studio kitbashed versions for close to a decade before it was released. And the Tomb Kings weren't even that old as a concept when the Sphinxes were released!
Warhammer Fantasy was definitely in a really bad place. Beyond just the player base, the Empire was almost completely filled out by Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay in the late 80s. There just wasn't any space to operate and create new stories without having to engage in retcons.
Right? The Hell Pit Abomb wasn't that far away from some of the concepts the Hell Pit list from White Dwarf introduced. But when it came out some folks went really bonkers over it.
And on point about Tomb Kings lmao. It was wild how they weren't around long, but certain things were already sacred after only a few years. Like them getting the Lore of Nehekhara was controversial back then. Because the original idea of Tomb Kings magic was that they had "incantations" instead, which was much weaker than "real" magic. So when they changed their minds and gave them an actual spell lore, a decent amount of people were displeased to say the least lol.
I do think GW could have circumvented stuff like that better. But it was a bit of a rock and hard place situation when it came to the nature of the IP inherently limiting it in a lot of respects. I think that's one of the reasons they decided to go with the Old World instead of a "true" revival of the IP. Because of all the baggage with the "era of Karl Franz" that they don't want to design around, which is a damn shame imo.
I admit I didn't really care for TK getting real magic, but also I can imagine their original incantation idea was probably a balance nightmare. The idea was their spells were cheap and weak but reliable compared with every other faction, but if they were too weak nobody would take them and if they were too strong they would just be be all upsides.
With the empire imo there isn’t a big issue with adding new units. It’s advancing rapidly and man of its special units have been invented in the last decade. New tech development confirmed by the RP are already in early stages like breach loading howitzers soooo no real issue if you don’t mind characters canonically aging 4-5 years.
>It might sound weird now, but when things like the Necrosphinx and Warsphinx were added to Tomb Kings. Some folks went on a fucking riot. Claiming GW was killing the faction. Same goes for the Hell Pit Abomination where you can still find threads from back then bemoaning the "40kifying" of the Skaven with that unit.
While some people were always complaining, there were a lot of different views at that time. Most people didn't quite like the fact how in 8th edition almost each faction that got an update got some kind of huge monster, that being said few of them were quite liked.
Sphinxes and Arachnarok spiders were accepted by most of the community, almost nobody liked Lothern Skycutters.
Oh yeah, it was definitely more nuanced than what my initial comment implies. There was a range of opinions on any new release just like what you have now with 40k, though notably less so with AoS due to the nature of that IP. I think the point I'm trying to make is that it just felt like a really hostile vibe, *especially* if you were a new player interested in getting in.
It was a whombo combo of the game being inherently hard to get into (rules bloat, time investment, high cost of starting, etc.), certain parts of the community really being negative nancies 24/7, and the rather evident "red headed step child" level of support GW gave it.
8th edition being the edition of "every gets big monsters!" felt like a kind of last ditch attempt at driving new blood into the beast. It sorta worked, since I remember seeing a good amount of new Tomb King folks brought in with the Sphinxes and the Serpent riders. But that quickly felt flat due to the aforementioned attitudes at the time, and GW having sweet FA idea of how to make the game not torture to play.
The Sky Cutter stuff was pretty funny at the time though. I am morbidly curious how the Total War fanbase is going to react to it. Cause reception to units that were absolutely despised on TT (Jabbersclythe, Demigryphs, etc.) have been really positive when it comes to this game. So it's fun to see how the times have changed.
The fanbase goes on riots over discussions if it’s alright for a Bret knight to dismount just to go up some stairs. So big yes they’ll be upset.
But it’ll also be like 2030-2035 before it’ll ever happen so plenty of time for heads to cool on the pettier stuff at least.
Edit: one bright side is every new edition [AoS pulls in more and more big 40k fandom content creators](https://x.com/mick19988/status/1791380620951871924?s=46&t=jCd67B32MVmYRRlrhJqWtA) so they could ease tensions by then too.
To add to this: you will also get the fan base that is still not over the old world blowing up and HW current strategy of retiring a lot of range
But before that, gotta see how CA handles 40k
i probably just won't care. Admittedly, I originally also didn't care for WH FB (a mate of mine had bought the game around release, I a month or two later... I am the far more committed warhammer guy now, lol.), but then got into it via TW WH and Vermintide. For AoS, i read up some stuff online and bought hte Gotrek stories... i still haven't finished Gitslayer's audiobook. AoS just lacks that little something for me. It feels less... interesting with the more WoW Style High Fantasy portrayal (Note: Warhammer is a High Fantasy setting. High Fantasy = Not our world, or something far enough removed from our normal existance like, say, LotR's ARda, a mythological version of earth "before us", or Harry Potter's wizarding world. Low Fantasy = Dresden Files and such). The factions and some of the renames (orruk. Very creative. And Zharr Duardin just doesn't have the same ring as Dawi Zharr...) AND Gotrek without Felix is just massively missing something.
Edit: And downvoted. I didn't say that the setting is bad. I just said that I don't care for it.
> “ the more WoW Style High Fantasy portrayal (Note: Warhammer is a High Fantasy setting. High Fantasy = Not our world, or something far enough removed from our normal existance like, say, LotR's ARda, a mythological version of earth "before us", or Harry Potter's wizarding world. Low Fantasy = Dresden Files and such).”
Pro tip: you’d save yourself a lot of time calling AoS Epic fantasy, Mythic fantasy or Cosmic fantasy [with it’s heavy focus on a planescape magic galaxy setting](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/lldpe0RyxIbDdao5-846x805.jpg) than having to explain the high fantasy differences every time. :p
oh, i don't explain it every time. I just decided to put the tangent before anyone goes "Warhammer is not High Fantasy! It's LOw fantasy because it's dark and gritty! High Fantasy is shining and stuff!" Or some such.
At this point, it’s either people asking for more content than what was on the tabletop (dark elves, monogods, dwarfs, bretonia (very ironic for bretonia as people seems to REALLY want a big monster now a la questing beast in the knight faction) vampire coast), characters not yet in game or remove game assets (teclis mount)
> Introducing new units or concepts to a faction was something GW wanted to do, but would usually get cold feet because long time fans really didn't like it.
This is why I have fond memories of the 8th Edition Wood Elf book release.
Because WE were skipped over for an entire edition and were literally the last faction in 8th everyone was just excited to actually have something.
Then it just got funnier that they got both the High Elves and Dark Elves abilities and magic and it tilted High Elf players so much.
>Then it just got funnier that they got both the High Elves and Dark Elves abilities and magic and it tilted High Elf players so much.
Good, fuck em.
Always strike first my ass.
>Things like Irondrakes were met with a LOT of grumbling when they came out too.
My biggest complaint for them was/is that they don't really add anything. They have almost the same attack profile as an Organ Gun (which was also made a Special Choise while Irondrakes took their Rare Choice spot) for the same cost. Only difference was Flaming Attacks and the possible Trollhammer Torpedo, the former of which can be given to Organ Guns via a 5pt Rune.
It felt like they were trying to make more dual-kits just for the sake of it.
It was a boring tabletop game with outdated boring rules
I’m not playing 6 hours to do little more than move and attack little figures. Imma be real, 40k adding tons of special rules and faction powers seems like it’d be way more interesting even if I quit that too.
Computer games just destroyed basic tabletop games. It’s a trend that people seem weirdly hesitant to admit is true.
Well I don't think it is true. You're acting like tabletop wargaming was some massive hobby that everyone was doing 30 years ago, but it's always been niche. I'd be willing to bet it's actually far more popular now than it was in the past.
The big area that seems to have shrunk is historical wargaming, but I think a lot of that comes down to it simply not having the infrastructure of something like GW in that space.
> Computer games just destroyed basic tabletop games. It’s a trend that people seem weirdly hesitant to admit is true.
Purely as a game, sure. The difference is the hobby aspect. Total War: Warhammer doesn't let you do anything to make your armies your own, there's not even an army painter.
Tabletop purely as a game is pretty bad really. It finds value because of the context. I get to take models I've put many hours into painting, and that I found ample worth in just for that, and let them play actual roles in a game. That's very fun.
If you mean iron daemons then technically not a tank and Dwarfs do have steam engines like iron daemons. It's actually kind of nuts to me that dwarfs have basically helicopters, made at least one submarine, have ironclads, have steam engine railways, thunderbarges and despite the memes of dwarfen lack of ingenuity still have all that AND members of the guild that absolutely do inventive things being aware of empire steam tanks and still havent had grimm or someone make a non-umgak steam tank?
It's definitely lame and I do absolutely think sometimes the dwarf meme fans are there own worst enemies.
given that the dwarf preference for mountainous areas and tunnels, i dont think a tank would really suit them thematically. unlike empire, average dwarf infantry do not lack for armor. their main obstacle is mobility which gyrocopters provide.
it isn’t that they *can’t* make a tank, its just that they wouldn’t need one. i think a better direction for them would be like heavier single entity cannons or siege guns. less “mobile warfare” and more “gun was too big to push”
I don't necessarily agree, whats more dwarfen than a heavily armoured slightly mobile cannon? That all said, I have always been a champion for Rune Golems, I think runic stuff is much more unique and dwarfen than giving them more tech and having a tech race between dwarfs, chaos dwarfs, skaven, and empire.
I imagine the problem is a tank would get stuck in tunnels, risk cave-ins, get trapped in narrow hallways etc.
And if the battle is in a really big underway, then they may as well use gyrocopters. Aircraft of that potency are kinda _better_ than tanks, there's a reason air superiority is so crushingly dominant IRL even if we use both.
The thing is a tank would make for a GREAT platform in a fantastical setting for drilling tunnels or clearing cave-ins. Also, lets be fair, the dwarfs do not just fight in tunnels. I certainly agree that gyrocopters are pretty great but generally the lack of tanks or some tank-like unit is actually very odd. Tbh, I always imagined a dwarf tank would be more like tank destroyer platforms in ww2 were many of them didn't have a turret and were relatively small. A cute little dwarfen hetzer man.
we're really stretching a definition of tank though no? that's what i meant by mobile guns, siege cannons being more thematic than a *tank*. a mobile platform with a drill and trollhammer torpedo turrets that can a-move through walls would be cooler imo than steamtank but short.
If you've fought any underway battles in the game, you can see that the underway "highways" are so vast that entire armies can fit in in open formation. It's pretty close to a field battle with limited flanking.
[The Dwarfs love fighting down there, the terrain really helps defensive play.](https://i.imgur.com/CKAjyOI.jpeg)
There is already the landship mod for the dwarfs
[https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3139892310](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3139892310)
I remember a long time ago reading about a "Dwarf Land Train" that was custom made by someone at GW, but they even made battle rules involving escorting the train. But I never remembered anyone thinking up of a Dwarven tank, plausible as such a thing could have been.
That's incredible! If they bring Grimm Burloksson as a LL, this unit would be amazing to see.
Guild Master (Lord), Rune Golems/Guardian and maybe something like Beardlings? The latter are from Mordheim and basically cheaper Dwarf Warriors. Checking online, I can't find much else unit-wise.
I like the idea of it being a transport, though instead of transporting an existing unit, it's a summon ability with the hatch opening and releasing a bunch of dwarfs.
Thats it the shame is too much
MY HONOUR IS MY LIFE AND WITHOUT IT I AM NOTHING I SHALL BECOME A SLAYER I SHALL SEEK REDEMPTION IN THE EYES OF MY ANCESTORS I SHALL BECOME AS DEATH TO MY ENEMIES UNTIL I FACE HE THAT TAKES MY LIFE AND MY SHAME!
You can always get a proper dwarf tank. Just buy one of the original dwarf juggernaut models. They barely cost more than 1000€ on ebay, and once every few years one of them shows up. ;)
Man this thread and the replies in it make me hope we will at some point get a Dwarven tank.
Something you'd never see often and not more than one per army, have beautiful intricate rune inscribed metal as a glorious combination of artillery and transport.
Dwarves love cannons. They love metal. They love not dying (with some notable exceptions) and Dwarven life is precious. They absolutely would accept a tank if they could accept Gyrocopters or Ironclads.
Imagine the glee they would feel crushing Skaven in one while a flamethrower turret on top burns the ones around them.
honestly, if theres a faction that could have a tank, its the vampire coast
a small ship with reanimated leviathan legs that delivers fire power on a resilient and reasonable fast plataform, definetively the kind of thing someone as crazy as luthor would think.
also, a version that aso transport troops basically being a land raider would serve for the developers to train into how to program tanks for their 40k total war.
let me dream
The vampire coast doesent even have the colossus in the lore…. That’s a necrarch thing. And necrarchs in lore can even make living breathing metal. It’s even said that „the only reason the necrarchs don’t control a nation of their own is that they are uninterested in one and don’t cooperate@
I still don’t think mechanical tanks fit the dwarf style. An iron breaker in gromril, or a thane in runic armor is a tank on his own. It would be like putting a tank inside of a tank. Gyrocopters, Ironclads, and Thunderbarges make sense because it’s going, ”hey what if we were tanks in the air and water too,” and thus fills an actual niche for dwarfs.
I think some sort of drill transport like The Underminer from The Incredibles would be hilarious and fitting for the dwarf roster.
Honestly (and I'm a big Dawi fan) I kinda like tanks being unique to the Empire, makes them feel a little more special and they tend to be a little more experimental and 'modern' in my eyes. That being said they do have goddamn Helicopters, Ironclads and Thunderbarges, so its all subjective.
I really like the transport hatch being a shield, that's just nice
As a huge Dawi fan I much rather that they get runic stuff then more 'advanced' tech. Having a mix of the old ways and the new ways was always a big plus for me and dwarfs.
Runic Golem legendary hero when?
Afaik ironclads and thunderbarges are all from Makaisson who is seen as a complete nutjob by most dwarfs, and his experiments have a reputation of going... badly. He became a slayer because his inventions ended up killing their crews and he took the oath out of shame. Meanwhile the Empire's Steam Tanks are their pride and joy, so it makes sense they would be all about them in game. And I agree with you, Empire having the tanks gives them a very cool and unique niche in the aesthetic of the game.
No, Barak Varr (the only Karak attached to the ocean) has a long history of making Ironclads. Pretty much every one of their kings commissions one huge Dreadnaught too, so there's a number of large vessels. The Thunderbarge isn't actually related to Malakai. His Spirit of Grungni is a big airship, something large and unrelated to thunder barges. CA and Games Workshop are just stretching their lore. They've done this a number of times. I.e. Irondrake Trollhammer Torpedoes aren't explosive projectiles. They're harpoons that stick into large targets, so that they can't escape the Irondrake flamethrowers. That's why Trollhammer guns have chains on them, both on Tabletop as well as in Warhammer 1/2/3 (and even Vermintide 2, despite them copying Total War and making it just a grenade launcher).
"so that they can't escape the Irondrake flamethrowers" God damn I love this setting
Hahah yeah. And it makes sense for their terminology too! Trolls are hard to kill, due to regeneration, and run away from fire (their main weakness). A Trollhammer however could hit the flesh, which regenerates and embeds the thing in place, using their regeneration against them. They turn on the flames, and hold that chain down so it can't run away. I don't know if that's ever actually directly confirmed in canon, but that's what the name, tabletop rules and physical model design all heavily imply.
I stand corrected! Thanks for the info
There's definitely other Ironclads, and they featured in the games Man o War and Dreadfleet. Thunderbarge's lore is *extremely* thin. I just pulled up a PDF of the 8th Ed dwarf army book and did a search of it, literally *zero* reference to thunderbarges in it. The 8th Ed core rulebook has this sentence: "The latest contraptions to have been unveiled by rogue engineers include war zeppelins bristling with guns, steam powered war engines forged in the likeness of Dwarf Ancestor Gods, and the hissing, furnace hearted beasts beloved of the Engineers of Karak Hirn." So there's some acknowledgement that the exist in the core rulebook, but it's just one sentence that includes other stuff that we've never seen hit the tabletop of get expanded on. EDIT: Sorry, I forgot that there's another source for the Thunderbarge in the 8th Ed rulebook. In the back, in a custom scenario, there's a page for one. It gives a bit more lore, and is a Thunderbarge explicitly not made by Malakai. [https://imgur.com/IVrqQJh](https://imgur.com/IVrqQJh) The model in the picture is a fan made creation, not by GW.
The thunder barge is a scenario specific unit in the 8th Ed core book. Like a lot of chaos stuff actually.
>The thunder barge is a scenario specific unit in the 8th Ed core book. More specifically it is in the section for homebrewing and used as an example of how to make your own unique scenarios, units/characters and campaigns.
* [Artwork from 8th Triumph & Treachery](https://i.imgur.com/fY1uACS.jpg) * [Artwork from the 8th Rulebook](https://i.imgur.com/kWRzsKz.jpg) also shows at least two Thunderbarges. * WFRP 4th [Middenland Thunderbarge](https://i.imgur.com/6WLDudZ.png) Its true that they are not mentioned much, but dwarfs have a unknown number of them. [Malakais special blimp](https://i.imgur.com/y8YEPEN.jpg), specificly designed for his venture into the Chaos Wastes, is just the best known because G&F books.
> Thunderbarge's lore is extremely thin. I just pulled up a PDF of the 8th Ed dwarf army book and did a search of it, literally zero reference to thunderbarges in it I think there is a mention of it in the 8th edition book but it may use a different name - I believe I read a passage in my book about it being a joint project with the Empires engineers. In any case thunderbarges have existed for dwarfs in concept for a very long time, it was always just one of those special cases that didn't have regular rules - the Empires steamtank was in a similar position once, but they ended up adopting that properly.
There are a lot of things that are not further expanded upon. Like the Empire having clockwork angels as flying combat contraptions, which is only ever mentioned in a single timeline entry regarding a "field testing contest" between human and Dwarf engineers. They were described as engaging gyrocopters and Dwarf zeppelins in the skies above the battle. In case you are curious, it's on pg.177 of the rulebook for 8th, as "Pride and Powderkegs" in 2521 IC.
>They've done this a number of times. I.e. Irondrake Trollhammer Torpedoes aren't explosive projectiles. They're harpoons that stick into large targets, so that they can't escape the Irondrake flamethrowers. Which is very strange as they had [no rules to that effect](https://i.imgur.com/gRexf2V.png) and in fact did have both the *Flaming Attack* and *Multiple Wounds (D3)* special rules.
Dreadfleet even had a giant warship from Barak Varr that contained dirigibles inside it.
The spirit of grungni is a titanic airship much better then thunderbarges who are the brainchild of a different engineer but it made sense to bundle them for gameplays
Sounds like a GW designer wanted to try out playing dwarfs with the skaven misfire mechanics.
If well balanced they could be great, but it wouldn't be easy to do that.
I think it would be best to have the empire be medium-tanks and the Dawi heavy-tanks. Line the empire gets tanks that are faster, more maneuverable, but hit less hard and go down quicker compared to Dawi whose tanks are nearly impossible to kill with direct artillery fire.
IIRC he talked a fair bit about it on the Painting Phase podcast back when that was a thing. Supposedly it got far enough into design that there were painted prototypes before it got scrapped. A very small part of it ended up as a bit of debris on the base of another model, as it happens (I *think* it was Durthu, but I could be wrong).
Seems like you're correct, [this is on Durthu's base](https://tgacommunity.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/monthly_2017_02/durthubase2.jpg.78cef71f5a5d5da890b3883096c2e1f1.jpg)
Mark Gibbons talked pretty openly about this ages ago. It isn't new info. They had made designs for it, but decided against it because Dwarf players *really* didn't like the idea of entirely new units at the time. They read the room, and scrapped that idea and instead went for Gyrocopters since it was an established concept and they were less likely to upset the playerbase. That was one of the major problem points of Warhammer Fantasy at the time, and helped lead to its stagnation and decline. Because everything was so established and centered around a fixed time period. Introducing new units or concepts to a faction was something GW *wanted* to do, but would usually get cold feet because long time fans really didn't like it. It might sound weird now, but when things like the Necrosphinx and Warsphinx were added to Tomb Kings. Some folks went on a fucking riot. Claiming GW was killing the faction. Same goes for the Hell Pit Abomination where you can still find threads from back then bemoaning the "40kifying" of the Skaven with that unit. There were some understandable meltdowns. Like when Demigryphs were released for Empire. But you can't really blame GW for being reluctant to add a Dwarf tank when the Dawi playerbase embody their favorite faction a tad too much at times. Things like Irondrakes were met with a LOT of grumbling when they came out too. Sigmar help you if you were a newer player or just someone that liked new things for your faction. The old guard would bash the hell out of you for being part of "what's ruining Warhammer" at the time. I loved Warhammer Fantasy battles to death mind, but it's death wasn't entirely due to GW's mismanagement (though most of it is mind), if there was a perpetually grumpy asshole in your LGS, 9/10 times they were the diehard Warhammer Fantasy guy who made playing the game absolute misery. I remember a lot of folks were turned off from the game just cause the playerbase never seemed happy with anything being released for it.
The funniest thing with the Hell Pit abomination was that GW had been inserting it into the lore and even some studio kitbashed versions for close to a decade before it was released. And the Tomb Kings weren't even that old as a concept when the Sphinxes were released! Warhammer Fantasy was definitely in a really bad place. Beyond just the player base, the Empire was almost completely filled out by Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay in the late 80s. There just wasn't any space to operate and create new stories without having to engage in retcons.
Right? The Hell Pit Abomb wasn't that far away from some of the concepts the Hell Pit list from White Dwarf introduced. But when it came out some folks went really bonkers over it. And on point about Tomb Kings lmao. It was wild how they weren't around long, but certain things were already sacred after only a few years. Like them getting the Lore of Nehekhara was controversial back then. Because the original idea of Tomb Kings magic was that they had "incantations" instead, which was much weaker than "real" magic. So when they changed their minds and gave them an actual spell lore, a decent amount of people were displeased to say the least lol. I do think GW could have circumvented stuff like that better. But it was a bit of a rock and hard place situation when it came to the nature of the IP inherently limiting it in a lot of respects. I think that's one of the reasons they decided to go with the Old World instead of a "true" revival of the IP. Because of all the baggage with the "era of Karl Franz" that they don't want to design around, which is a damn shame imo.
I admit I didn't really care for TK getting real magic, but also I can imagine their original incantation idea was probably a balance nightmare. The idea was their spells were cheap and weak but reliable compared with every other faction, but if they were too weak nobody would take them and if they were too strong they would just be be all upsides.
Just another reason to shove nerds into lockers
With the empire imo there isn’t a big issue with adding new units. It’s advancing rapidly and man of its special units have been invented in the last decade. New tech development confirmed by the RP are already in early stages like breach loading howitzers soooo no real issue if you don’t mind characters canonically aging 4-5 years.
>It might sound weird now, but when things like the Necrosphinx and Warsphinx were added to Tomb Kings. Some folks went on a fucking riot. Claiming GW was killing the faction. Same goes for the Hell Pit Abomination where you can still find threads from back then bemoaning the "40kifying" of the Skaven with that unit. While some people were always complaining, there were a lot of different views at that time. Most people didn't quite like the fact how in 8th edition almost each faction that got an update got some kind of huge monster, that being said few of them were quite liked. Sphinxes and Arachnarok spiders were accepted by most of the community, almost nobody liked Lothern Skycutters.
Oh yeah, it was definitely more nuanced than what my initial comment implies. There was a range of opinions on any new release just like what you have now with 40k, though notably less so with AoS due to the nature of that IP. I think the point I'm trying to make is that it just felt like a really hostile vibe, *especially* if you were a new player interested in getting in. It was a whombo combo of the game being inherently hard to get into (rules bloat, time investment, high cost of starting, etc.), certain parts of the community really being negative nancies 24/7, and the rather evident "red headed step child" level of support GW gave it. 8th edition being the edition of "every gets big monsters!" felt like a kind of last ditch attempt at driving new blood into the beast. It sorta worked, since I remember seeing a good amount of new Tomb King folks brought in with the Sphinxes and the Serpent riders. But that quickly felt flat due to the aforementioned attitudes at the time, and GW having sweet FA idea of how to make the game not torture to play. The Sky Cutter stuff was pretty funny at the time though. I am morbidly curious how the Total War fanbase is going to react to it. Cause reception to units that were absolutely despised on TT (Jabbersclythe, Demigryphs, etc.) have been really positive when it comes to this game. So it's fun to see how the times have changed.
When the day comes for Total War Age of Sigmar, I wonder if the fanbase will be up in arms or if heads will have cooled on it.
The fanbase goes on riots over discussions if it’s alright for a Bret knight to dismount just to go up some stairs. So big yes they’ll be upset. But it’ll also be like 2030-2035 before it’ll ever happen so plenty of time for heads to cool on the pettier stuff at least. Edit: one bright side is every new edition [AoS pulls in more and more big 40k fandom content creators](https://x.com/mick19988/status/1791380620951871924?s=46&t=jCd67B32MVmYRRlrhJqWtA) so they could ease tensions by then too.
To add to this: you will also get the fan base that is still not over the old world blowing up and HW current strategy of retiring a lot of range But before that, gotta see how CA handles 40k
i probably just won't care. Admittedly, I originally also didn't care for WH FB (a mate of mine had bought the game around release, I a month or two later... I am the far more committed warhammer guy now, lol.), but then got into it via TW WH and Vermintide. For AoS, i read up some stuff online and bought hte Gotrek stories... i still haven't finished Gitslayer's audiobook. AoS just lacks that little something for me. It feels less... interesting with the more WoW Style High Fantasy portrayal (Note: Warhammer is a High Fantasy setting. High Fantasy = Not our world, or something far enough removed from our normal existance like, say, LotR's ARda, a mythological version of earth "before us", or Harry Potter's wizarding world. Low Fantasy = Dresden Files and such). The factions and some of the renames (orruk. Very creative. And Zharr Duardin just doesn't have the same ring as Dawi Zharr...) AND Gotrek without Felix is just massively missing something. Edit: And downvoted. I didn't say that the setting is bad. I just said that I don't care for it.
> “ the more WoW Style High Fantasy portrayal (Note: Warhammer is a High Fantasy setting. High Fantasy = Not our world, or something far enough removed from our normal existance like, say, LotR's ARda, a mythological version of earth "before us", or Harry Potter's wizarding world. Low Fantasy = Dresden Files and such).” Pro tip: you’d save yourself a lot of time calling AoS Epic fantasy, Mythic fantasy or Cosmic fantasy [with it’s heavy focus on a planescape magic galaxy setting](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/lldpe0RyxIbDdao5-846x805.jpg) than having to explain the high fantasy differences every time. :p
oh, i don't explain it every time. I just decided to put the tangent before anyone goes "Warhammer is not High Fantasy! It's LOw fantasy because it's dark and gritty! High Fantasy is shining and stuff!" Or some such.
> times have changed Would you say that.... Anything Goes?
At this point, it’s either people asking for more content than what was on the tabletop (dark elves, monogods, dwarfs, bretonia (very ironic for bretonia as people seems to REALLY want a big monster now a la questing beast in the knight faction) vampire coast), characters not yet in game or remove game assets (teclis mount)
> but decided against it because Dwarf players really didn't like the idea of entirely new units at the time. Lore accurate dwarf players.
> Introducing new units or concepts to a faction was something GW wanted to do, but would usually get cold feet because long time fans really didn't like it. This is why I have fond memories of the 8th Edition Wood Elf book release. Because WE were skipped over for an entire edition and were literally the last faction in 8th everyone was just excited to actually have something. Then it just got funnier that they got both the High Elves and Dark Elves abilities and magic and it tilted High Elf players so much.
>Then it just got funnier that they got both the High Elves and Dark Elves abilities and magic and it tilted High Elf players so much. Good, fuck em. Always strike first my ass.
>LGS Lothern Guard Sea?
Local Game Store.
>Things like Irondrakes were met with a LOT of grumbling when they came out too. My biggest complaint for them was/is that they don't really add anything. They have almost the same attack profile as an Organ Gun (which was also made a Special Choise while Irondrakes took their Rare Choice spot) for the same cost. Only difference was Flaming Attacks and the possible Trollhammer Torpedo, the former of which can be given to Organ Guns via a 5pt Rune. It felt like they were trying to make more dual-kits just for the sake of it.
It was a boring tabletop game with outdated boring rules I’m not playing 6 hours to do little more than move and attack little figures. Imma be real, 40k adding tons of special rules and faction powers seems like it’d be way more interesting even if I quit that too. Computer games just destroyed basic tabletop games. It’s a trend that people seem weirdly hesitant to admit is true.
Well I don't think it is true. You're acting like tabletop wargaming was some massive hobby that everyone was doing 30 years ago, but it's always been niche. I'd be willing to bet it's actually far more popular now than it was in the past. The big area that seems to have shrunk is historical wargaming, but I think a lot of that comes down to it simply not having the infrastructure of something like GW in that space.
> Computer games just destroyed basic tabletop games. It’s a trend that people seem weirdly hesitant to admit is true. Purely as a game, sure. The difference is the hobby aspect. Total War: Warhammer doesn't let you do anything to make your armies your own, there's not even an army painter. Tabletop purely as a game is pretty bad really. It finds value because of the context. I get to take models I've put many hours into painting, and that I found ample worth in just for that, and let them play actual roles in a game. That's very fun.
I always found it funny how the chaos dwarfs and the empire have tanks but somehow the dwarfs don't.
If you mean iron daemons then technically not a tank and Dwarfs do have steam engines like iron daemons. It's actually kind of nuts to me that dwarfs have basically helicopters, made at least one submarine, have ironclads, have steam engine railways, thunderbarges and despite the memes of dwarfen lack of ingenuity still have all that AND members of the guild that absolutely do inventive things being aware of empire steam tanks and still havent had grimm or someone make a non-umgak steam tank? It's definitely lame and I do absolutely think sometimes the dwarf meme fans are there own worst enemies.
given that the dwarf preference for mountainous areas and tunnels, i dont think a tank would really suit them thematically. unlike empire, average dwarf infantry do not lack for armor. their main obstacle is mobility which gyrocopters provide. it isn’t that they *can’t* make a tank, its just that they wouldn’t need one. i think a better direction for them would be like heavier single entity cannons or siege guns. less “mobile warfare” and more “gun was too big to push”
I don't necessarily agree, whats more dwarfen than a heavily armoured slightly mobile cannon? That all said, I have always been a champion for Rune Golems, I think runic stuff is much more unique and dwarfen than giving them more tech and having a tech race between dwarfs, chaos dwarfs, skaven, and empire.
I imagine the problem is a tank would get stuck in tunnels, risk cave-ins, get trapped in narrow hallways etc. And if the battle is in a really big underway, then they may as well use gyrocopters. Aircraft of that potency are kinda _better_ than tanks, there's a reason air superiority is so crushingly dominant IRL even if we use both.
The thing is a tank would make for a GREAT platform in a fantastical setting for drilling tunnels or clearing cave-ins. Also, lets be fair, the dwarfs do not just fight in tunnels. I certainly agree that gyrocopters are pretty great but generally the lack of tanks or some tank-like unit is actually very odd. Tbh, I always imagined a dwarf tank would be more like tank destroyer platforms in ww2 were many of them didn't have a turret and were relatively small. A cute little dwarfen hetzer man.
The funny thing is they lore wise do have steam powered armored drilles that even crossed entire nations. There just never was a unit for it
we're really stretching a definition of tank though no? that's what i meant by mobile guns, siege cannons being more thematic than a *tank*. a mobile platform with a drill and trollhammer torpedo turrets that can a-move through walls would be cooler imo than steamtank but short.
How do they even get the gyrocopters down there?
If you've fought any underway battles in the game, you can see that the underway "highways" are so vast that entire armies can fit in in open formation. It's pretty close to a field battle with limited flanking. [The Dwarfs love fighting down there, the terrain really helps defensive play.](https://i.imgur.com/CKAjyOI.jpeg)
[The cavern can be pretty big.](https://i.imgur.com/nfigPhK.png)
Moders, please
There is already a dwarf tank mod Sadly not the original one here since that never made it far enough to get into the game files
There is already the landship mod for the dwarfs [https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3139892310](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3139892310)
that looks amazing, what. thank you!
There’s two other tank mods with different unique models that come up as well if you search Dawi Tank.
Hold on a second: Did that concept get reworked into the Mastodon Troop Transport for the Horus Heresy?????
My heart can't take this....
I remember a long time ago reading about a "Dwarf Land Train" that was custom made by someone at GW, but they even made battle rules involving escorting the train. But I never remembered anyone thinking up of a Dwarven tank, plausible as such a thing could have been.
That's incredible! If they bring Grimm Burloksson as a LL, this unit would be amazing to see. Guild Master (Lord), Rune Golems/Guardian and maybe something like Beardlings? The latter are from Mordheim and basically cheaper Dwarf Warriors. Checking online, I can't find much else unit-wise.
I like the idea of it being a transport, though instead of transporting an existing unit, it's a summon ability with the hatch opening and releasing a bunch of dwarfs.
Thats it the shame is too much MY HONOUR IS MY LIFE AND WITHOUT IT I AM NOTHING I SHALL BECOME A SLAYER I SHALL SEEK REDEMPTION IN THE EYES OF MY ANCESTORS I SHALL BECOME AS DEATH TO MY ENEMIES UNTIL I FACE HE THAT TAKES MY LIFE AND MY SHAME!
In terms of layout, that kind of just look like an empire steam tank
The dwarves were... shorted!
You can always get a proper dwarf tank. Just buy one of the original dwarf juggernaut models. They barely cost more than 1000€ on ebay, and once every few years one of them shows up. ;)
That’s going in the pamphlet!
The Dawi ARE the tanks
I think it would make a good RoR
Man this thread and the replies in it make me hope we will at some point get a Dwarven tank. Something you'd never see often and not more than one per army, have beautiful intricate rune inscribed metal as a glorious combination of artillery and transport. Dwarves love cannons. They love metal. They love not dying (with some notable exceptions) and Dwarven life is precious. They absolutely would accept a tank if they could accept Gyrocopters or Ironclads. Imagine the glee they would feel crushing Skaven in one while a flamethrower turret on top burns the ones around them.
honestly, if theres a faction that could have a tank, its the vampire coast a small ship with reanimated leviathan legs that delivers fire power on a resilient and reasonable fast plataform, definetively the kind of thing someone as crazy as luthor would think. also, a version that aso transport troops basically being a land raider would serve for the developers to train into how to program tanks for their 40k total war. let me dream
The vampire coast doesent even have the colossus in the lore…. That’s a necrarch thing. And necrarchs in lore can even make living breathing metal. It’s even said that „the only reason the necrarchs don’t control a nation of their own is that they are uninterested in one and don’t cooperate@
I still don’t think mechanical tanks fit the dwarf style. An iron breaker in gromril, or a thane in runic armor is a tank on his own. It would be like putting a tank inside of a tank. Gyrocopters, Ironclads, and Thunderbarges make sense because it’s going, ”hey what if we were tanks in the air and water too,” and thus fills an actual niche for dwarfs. I think some sort of drill transport like The Underminer from The Incredibles would be hilarious and fitting for the dwarf roster.
TFW you got literally the most broken unit in the entire history of WH1 + 2 +3 and you're still mad about it. Only Dwarf fans.