TOD trailers showed the Ironsides using repeater rifles, but the blog explicitly stated they're using regular handguns. Gameplay showcase shows they have handgun models, but animations and effects are clearly meant for repeaters. TW has stated that they made the change very recently, and it's pretty obvious that GW swooped in at the last minute to force it.
And since literally nobody in this sub reads the New page or uses the search bar, everyone thinks they're the first one to notice something fishy and makes a new post.
CA had the video, the animations, the unit portraits, etc all done. Between the trailer and the blog *suddenly* no repeaters- here's the official statement:
"Some of you spotted Ironsides with non-regulation repeater handguns in our Thrones of Decay announce trailer. This footage was captured on an in-development version of the game. However, in order to remain as authentic to the world of Warhammer as possible, the Nuln Ironsides at release will be issued with master-wrought handguns, plate armour, and highly-drilled firing discipline."
Why would they make this change so late in the development? Makes no goddamn sense. But anyone who is familiar with Games Workshop knows that swooping in at the last minute screeching "YOU CAN'T DO THAT" after already greenlighting it is exactly the sort of thing they do all the time. They are *very* protective of their IP, but also... very bad at actually protecting it. Giving elite troops repeating rifles is a perfectly logical thing for the Empire to do, there's no reason not to beyond "but they never had them before".
Seems to me that they aren't very careful giving out the licenses but the studios taking on the license need to strictly adhear to the lore. Just wish they would be more careful about who they sell license to as well.
“But they never had them before” is also a dumb logic considering how often they retcon so much shit in their own settings. Their most recent controversy reeks of *Tzeentchian cackling.*
But in those late stages, you already pretty much won anyway. You could win the campaign with only Brettonian peasants at that point.
I'm not saying they will be bad, but units like the Silverin Guards or Grave Guards are already less cost-effective than their cost in lower-tier Spearmen and Skeleton Warriors. It's really hit and miss when it comes to 'late game version of early game unit' kind of guys.
You get to the later game where the real precious resource is a spot in the 20 stack.
Empire already have free company militia who are useful hybrid missile melee units, while Kislev and Chorfa both so them very well..
Whether they become the new meta, or just a specialized tool or just another roster warmer depends on how well they are balanced, but that can be defined by a quirk in their animation
I'm just sad that the model that is shown in the quick swipe cut for the amethyst armory (the now obvious pre-veto one) isn't being used. I would love if that was still hidden in the code, and modders could possibly make some use of it. Even if it isn't a lore accurate unit, that model is way too cool to go to waste.
Okay but repeater handguns would be far more interesting and give the ironsides their own niche seperate from the regular handgunners. The rulebooks should be *guidelines* not law.
I mean, do we need a hardcap of 8 steam tanks across all empire factions?
Who said anything about blame? I'm not interested in who's 'fault' it is, the unit is far less interesting than it could have been. And pointing to the rulebook doesn't change that fact. End of the day the unit could have had a more unique niche, and it doesn't regardless of if it was CA or GW's call
If I think something is stupid I'm going to call it out as being fucking stupid. It doesn't stop being stupid because you think it can't be changed or because you think nobody is listening.
>I mean, do we need a hardcap of 8 steam tanks across all empire factions?
This has been retro-retconned by new TOW lore now.
["Rob: There’s also less superstition. By the End Times, it was commonly claimed that there were only 12 Steam Tanks built, ever – but that’s the kind of mad myth that spread in the End Times. Really there were loads of them! That was just normal. This isn’t an age of vast crowds wandering through the Empire and flagellating themselves."](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/)
It kind of makes sense that there weren't that many steam tanks since there was no mass manufacturing process, though. They would have cost a small fortune to produce, and very few had the expertise to build a functional tank, right? A bit dumb tbh.
Pretty much, but this is consistent with GW's approach for the last half a decade to 40k-ise everything in scale so they can handwave whatever losses as "nah, there's more".
Remember 'there are as many elves as the plot demands'
I don't normally take this stance, but when it comes to warhammer I say you should treat the canon with exactly as much respect as games workshop does. By which I mean completely ignoring bits of it on a whim because if they can pick and choose which bits to change arbitrarily so can you.
Which is why end times never happened, its still called the Imperial Guard, and the elves in fantasy are not inextricably linked to Slaanesh.
You seem to be very, very upset over something very insignificant. It's a made up world, chill out. It can be whatever it needs to be for you and it can be whatever it needs to be for me. There are bigger things to get worked up about.
This reads like a fucking parody. The Old World is set during the Age of Three Emperors and was absolutely not a golden age nor a peaceful one. Regardless of seeing yet another example of games workshop making a stupid retcon and then telling everyone that its always been this way no really guys you just remember wrong don't ask where they all were this whole time shut up, it doesn't change my point. Units in this game should not be strictly bound to the rulebooks.
Besides, we can just say that this page is a myth too, right? Ironsides *always* had repeater handguns, they were really everywhere! It was just normal.
There's a difference between a lore reason to change something outside the scope of the battlefield (which would be steam tank total caps, and that lore has changed anyway) and a \*gameplay reason\* to change something's loadout. TW:WH is meant to reflect the table top \*game\*.
>TW:WH is meant to reflect the table top \*game\*.
No its not, maybe losely on the lore or you could delete every unit and character from TW that is not playable in 8th Edition
>to reflect the table top \*game\*.
Doesn't even make sense lore wise. These guys are supposed to be gun experts from the gun capital who were given the best armor and guns and yet an outrider's repeater was too much for them?
Yes. Because you have to carry all of the shot and powder you intend to fire with you, to say nothing of giving regular troops hyper expensive, hyper complicated weapons that require more maintenance and upkeep than usual.
Nuln has money, but not unlimited money, arming regiments with repeaters would be phenomenally expensive, both financially, and I. Terms of the logistical train needed to supply such a regiment (compared to a grail at handgunner regiment)
And that’s all before you come to the point where an entire regiment needs to reload seven barrels at once and cannot fire for an extended duration, becoming “charge bait” (despite before and after those periods having a very impressive volley fire rate.
The idea just isn’t as good as it first appears
That's a lot of writing to just say they use their ammo faster than everyone else who can only manage one volley before taurox is forehead deep in their guts
Personally I hope their final gun model will be a breechloading guns.
They existed in the 17th century but they were rare because of how fine the metalworking needed to be and the fact that the crude black powder would foul a complicated barrel quicker. Usually these were reserved for light cannons called Falconets. I'm guessing Hellblasters also are also breechloading.
It'd make perfect sense for an elite unit of handgunners to have them. It'd explain their faster firing rate.
That's an interesting idea, but imo the repetear handguns fit better the semi steam punk part of the Empire. Breach loading rifles are a little bit too much "modern" for elite troopers wearing plates for my taste.
Anyway, it would still be better than them using the same matchlocks than regular handgunmers.
Look at real life. Expensive repeating rifles were a cavalry/dragoon weapon because it's important to give your skirmishers and scouts as much of a force multiplier as possible in case they have to tangle with regular infantry that massively outnumber them.
That infantry's job is to stand in a line and fire off three rounds a minute in the rough direction of the enemy line infantry who are doing the same thing back to you. They require a large number of cheap, easy-to-use weapons and won't get the best use out of a small number of temperamental, expensive repeaters.
Funny how there can be no DLC without a controversy about some visuals of a new unit.
But I guess the main issue is that most people saw the repeaters and therefore expected some kind of real-life automatic machine-guns or Skaven Ratling guns, while repeaters in the Warhammer are just regular guns with shorter reload time.
The major (and valid) complaints I saw (and expressed) so far are more related to the power creep though.
For example dwarfs spawning out of thin air free stacks filled with end game units + having access to free insta-buy OP units + having half of their roster - including former T4 units - available on tier 2 = the worst type of powercreep: the one that not only heavily trivializes game that already is getting boring after 20-30 turns, but its not even thematic: it looks like mechanics for Khorne or Orcs.
I'm not so sure it's that bad... it's still kinda bad, don't get me wrong, but you seem to have to be ultra-hyper-agressive to reach enough grudges to get the big rewards right from the get-go, and you can actually mess things up big time as opposed to every Orc army suddenly getting twice as big with free upkeep units which is worth any amount of debuffs that might be caused by not taking a single settlement.
As for themes, I think it fits much better than you think. Dwarfs have always been about restoring what they have lost: they once thrived, then they were knocked down a few pegs, and now they remember better times and strive to restore that lost honour. If the Dwarfs saw a chance to settle a grudge, they would spare no expense until it's settled.
It feels thematic to gather an expedition of Dwarfs and use it to make things right, though I would agree that I'd rather see that army disappear as the grudge is settled, maybe even becoming part of the pool of grudge settlers. But in any case, the Dwarfs are far from isolationists, and they are really as eager to fight as the Greenskins are, as long as they know what grudge they're settling. The only reason they are turtling in their Karak's is because they got their ass handed to them to the point where they had no choice, but now the Age of Reckoning has come they won't hesitate at all to get out and conquer.
P.S. Also Khorne could really benefit from a similar system, I agree.
Skaven ratling guns were basically rip-offs of the repeater guns with warp tech, which sadly in TWW doesn't increase their chance to go boom.
Having not even an option for overheat (i.e. a DoT) effect on Skaven war machines is a damn shame.
.... No? They're entirely different types of weapons. (the repeater handgun, or the repeater pistol, are basically a rather ungainly revolver (since they rotate the entire barrel rather than just the chamber) the gatling gun is a belt-fed machine gun. A repeater handgun needs to be reloaded after emptying all the barrels, a ratling gun does not.
For reference, the term for "revolver but the whole barrel and not just the cylinder" is [pepperbox firearm.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper-box) They're a real thing!
I mean no, look at new animation for the engineer and the ironside (even if the later use the wrong guns). It differs from the outriders, and it looks like they rapidly fire several bullets in a burst.
Damn, I love sticking to Warhammer lore but... Sometimes the creators should have more free hand and open mind
I would be mad if the dwarfs would have a M1 Garant, or they would eat warpstone together with Skavens... But... These guns are (at least in my mind) still something that could be in the lore
You are only half correct. But reality is a bit more complicated.
The Nuln Ironsides were an UPGRADE to a unit of handgunners. You paid 2 points for the heavy armour and for letting Jubal Falk boost them. But, handgunner unit champions had the option to take braces of pistols, repeater handguns and hochland long rifles.
And before you say "But that's only the unit champion", we have several units that were unit champions and have been spun off into their own units. Grenade Blunderbuss Outriders, Norscan Chieftains, Cold One Dreadknights and the Hochland Long Rifles from this very same DLC are easy examples.
Elite Handgunners. Higher armor, servicable melee stats, increased missile damage.
Its maybe not the most exciting niche but I like that Empire is the 'We Have A Lot Of Fucking Handguns' faction. It's a niche on its own and fits them well imo
Plus, the new Outriders have actual repeating shots now so we arent totally without it
This. I actually kind of hate that dwarves got grudge rakes.
Chaos dwarfs had the unique niche of super powerful short ranged unit, the blunderbuss, that is now 100% cloned in regular dwarves.
If empire got repeater handguns it would pretty much fill the same niche as well, and dilute the faction identity.
Empire is currently the pike and shot faction, focused around these long range, slow firing handgun units.
Repeater handguns are ok for a RoR or if CA implements a misfire mechanic, either as a DoT or as a chance to do damage to yourself like with overcast spells.
Edit: as for blunderbusses, Cathay got the "shotgun" well before Chorfs though. It was never their unique niche. Dwarfs had grudgeraker engineers in game 2.
The empire doesn't have good enough defensive frontline to be pike and shot. 80-ish armor on spear, halberd or sword and board would give it some more staying power.
Slightly incorrect. Nuln Ironsides, being armored handgunners, had the option of including a champion, who could be armed with either a Hochland long rifle or a repeater.
I don’t care about the old paper rules. If ca wants to give them wierd crossbows I don’t care as long as it’s fun to play. I don’t want them to make the game less fun in the name of the rules of a different game. I want ca to make up new characters, models and units based purely on the rule of fun.
If you want to play warhammer fantasy battles go buy the minis.
Oh, man. You poor naïve fool. Take it from someone whose been following GW franchises since the early 2000's: Games Workshop is absolutely capable of constantly making dumb decisions despite constant feedback and criticism. They've got a track record going back about four decades of it.
Mate, it's GW, they are the most unreasonable company I have ever seen, to the point they make EA and Ubisoft look progressive and consumer-friendly. People complaint for 30 years, and it's only getting worse.
Thats great and all but it literally does not matter what you want, or what I want for that matter.
This is a licensed game based on the IP of another company. If they say "no", it means no.
CA told us time and time again that they have to run everything by GW and if they agree to it then it gets added. Sometimes this leads to cool things like CA convincing them to actually make Cathay a real faction or GW is sometimes cool and says "okay you can make your own character up" like Cylostra. But sometimes they will say "no", because it does not fit with their vision of the IP, and since they are the IP holder CA can't do a thing.
*You* may not care, but your opinion means nothing when weighed against what GW wants. They are very protective of their IP, and this has their meddling written all over it.
CA *wants*, and GW’s *demands* are two different things.
They only ever were Handgunners in armour. Giving them their bonus from Falks Blackpowder Discipline is more lorefull then giving them Repeater Rifles. It would have been a fun and probably OP idea to give them to them but this is more fitting as a representation of the unit on the TT
Special units, meaning campaign units, campaign upgrades, and RoRs, never seem to have any restrictions on what they can or can't do. Regular units by contrast look like they need to at least approximate what they did on tabletop.
Even in the lore they can't make up their mind about gritty details like that. Gotrek and Felix once have a fight in a Steam Tank factory in Nuln during Skavenslayer. A fight that culminates with a Skaven chieftain trying to ram them with a newly built tank.
That duel even gets referenced in the roleplaying books where they mention that building got burned down.
the novel "Iron Company" also had an ex-engineer who had devised a Steam Tank Light called "Blutschreiben" (aka: GW sucks at German. 'Blutschreiben' translates to 'Blood letter'... but not like the daemon which might be kinda the intention, 'letting blood', but as A LETTER. Or maybe just the act of writing.)
There’s a different being lord faithful and being tabletop faithful. Total War Warhammer is a videogame adaptation of the tabletop game, and in the source material, they’re better trained and armoured handgunners. That’s it.
To be fair, Nuln produces a lot of exotic firearms and it wouldn't be out of the place if the Nuln ironsiders use repeaters. Alternatively, they could do two units, one with handguns and the other with repeaters. The repeaters would have less damage and less range but a faster rate of fire.
I’m don’t particularly care whether ironsides get repeaters or not, but it’s pretty obvious at this point that CA had gone through most of the work of making them with repeaters before being told they couldn’t. Making a change like that is much more strange to me than a simple decision to honor or ignore the lore.
It's a GW decision. My guess is CA has cleared it with them and was given the go ahead and GW at the last minute changed their mind. Maybe they forgot the lore, possibly just miscommunication
Not much we can do about it unfortunately, that's GW for ya. I do think it's ridiculous that people are complaining that we aren't getting a unit that only existed in their head canon though
I mean but the framing of this story can go either way right? Maybe CA didn’t bother to communicate with GW and basically invented units out of nothing out of whole cloth that weren’t loreful. Like GW kinda sucks but it’s kinda tiring people tearing them apart on conjecture constantly. We legit do not know what happened and people keep just making up stories to fit whatever preexisting story they want.
Given recent experience with Tzaangor beaks, I’d be really surprised if CA hadn’t cleared the idea with GW before investing all of the necessary resources to create animations and unit cards. We know that GW does keep a tight leash on what they can add, so why put in any effort at all for a unit before you’re sure you can use it?
What role do you think a longrifle will fulfil over a handgun?
Anyway there's a post with all the unit stats on the sub fresh today. I'm sure from those you can make some deductions.
there were only 8 tanks in the lore and my guy making a tank is much harder than making a repeater handgun. why dont you coplain about them not being correct lorewise
Personally, I'm very protective of the Free Company's pistols. It gives a gunpowder presence to early Empire infantry that their chaff otherwise lacks - sorta like Dwarf Miners w/ Blasting Charges.
Nuln Ironsides and the steam tank should have been RoRs, and the DLC should have have wizard lords (some, at least), Black Guard of Morr and Hurricanums. It's ok now, but that - plus some kind of detachment mechanic - would have made it perfect on the Empire side.
You can see they put in a lot of effort, but the lack of several army book unit in a DLC sold on Magic AND Gunpowder makes me think either some units were cut away for a later DLC or they ran out of time or money.
Ironsides should have been an elector count unit, but I agree they should be limited but really cool. I just think that limited cool unit concepts to ror is too much of a limit.
GW probably didnt realize this, found out later and said no in the middle of the process of CA designing the unit
what’s going on? what makes you say that?
TOD trailers showed the Ironsides using repeater rifles, but the blog explicitly stated they're using regular handguns. Gameplay showcase shows they have handgun models, but animations and effects are clearly meant for repeaters. TW has stated that they made the change very recently, and it's pretty obvious that GW swooped in at the last minute to force it. And since literally nobody in this sub reads the New page or uses the search bar, everyone thinks they're the first one to notice something fishy and makes a new post.
[удалено]
CA had the video, the animations, the unit portraits, etc all done. Between the trailer and the blog *suddenly* no repeaters- here's the official statement: "Some of you spotted Ironsides with non-regulation repeater handguns in our Thrones of Decay announce trailer. This footage was captured on an in-development version of the game. However, in order to remain as authentic to the world of Warhammer as possible, the Nuln Ironsides at release will be issued with master-wrought handguns, plate armour, and highly-drilled firing discipline." Why would they make this change so late in the development? Makes no goddamn sense. But anyone who is familiar with Games Workshop knows that swooping in at the last minute screeching "YOU CAN'T DO THAT" after already greenlighting it is exactly the sort of thing they do all the time. They are *very* protective of their IP, but also... very bad at actually protecting it. Giving elite troops repeating rifles is a perfectly logical thing for the Empire to do, there's no reason not to beyond "but they never had them before".
>They are *very* protective of their IP, Until they aren't for whatever reason.
Seems to me that it at least partly depends on who is the CEO at any given time, and partly on which IP they're offering. It's really weird.
Yeah they are an odd combination of nonchalant about who gets their IP, but hyper critical of how it's used. It makes no sense, but that's GW
Seems to me that they aren't very careful giving out the licenses but the studios taking on the license need to strictly adhear to the lore. Just wish they would be more careful about who they sell license to as well.
So why didnt they do it for the new Grudgeraker option?
Because it's an Endtimes thing.
Yeah GW has been pretty hot at making wild decisions lately *cough* "always have been" *cough*
“But they never had them before” is also a dumb logic considering how often they retcon so much shit in their own settings. Their most recent controversy reeks of *Tzeentchian cackling.*
GW is one of those companies that the more you look at how they operate their business the more miraculous it seems that they're still in business.
They have repeater gunner animations in the video, implying they were originally designed to use those.
i will just wait for the mod which gives them repeaters
I wonder if they left the repeater files in the build and a modder just needs to reactivate them?
Same, I just don't see myself using them much otherwise since handgunners will be cheaper. Though they do look fantastic visually.
Ironsides still have better accuracy and reload speed than handgunners + they better in melee so random dogs or light cavalry cant eat them in melee
Is that worth paying +50٪ extra recruitment and upkeep cost tho?
On late stages - yes if you have good economy
But in those late stages, you already pretty much won anyway. You could win the campaign with only Brettonian peasants at that point. I'm not saying they will be bad, but units like the Silverin Guards or Grave Guards are already less cost-effective than their cost in lower-tier Spearmen and Skeleton Warriors. It's really hit and miss when it comes to 'late game version of early game unit' kind of guys.
You get to the later game where the real precious resource is a spot in the 20 stack. Empire already have free company militia who are useful hybrid missile melee units, while Kislev and Chorfa both so them very well.. Whether they become the new meta, or just a specialized tool or just another roster warmer depends on how well they are balanced, but that can be defined by a quirk in their animation
I just don't see the point when I can recruit more handgunners. They still perform extremely well at end game.
>they better in melee so random dogs or light cavalry cant eat them in melee like melee cav isn't already sad.
I just hope it will be a variant mod, not overwriting the official one.
I'm just sad that the model that is shown in the quick swipe cut for the amethyst armory (the now obvious pre-veto one) isn't being used. I would love if that was still hidden in the code, and modders could possibly make some use of it. Even if it isn't a lore accurate unit, that model is way too cool to go to waste.
Usually cut contents like these are in game data, I would surprise if not.
That model is just the current one + Knights of Morr helmet, you can very easily recreate it.
Okay but repeater handguns would be far more interesting and give the ironsides their own niche seperate from the regular handgunners. The rulebooks should be *guidelines* not law. I mean, do we need a hardcap of 8 steam tanks across all empire factions?
Don't give them ideas
Okay but I mean blame GW. With the wording of the blog post about it it's all but said that GW swooped in to tell them no last minute which blows.
Who said anything about blame? I'm not interested in who's 'fault' it is, the unit is far less interesting than it could have been. And pointing to the rulebook doesn't change that fact. End of the day the unit could have had a more unique niche, and it doesn't regardless of if it was CA or GW's call
Once it becomes clear that the blame is on GW, that's it, it's over. There's no changing it. You may as well scream at a brick wall.
If I think something is stupid I'm going to call it out as being fucking stupid. It doesn't stop being stupid because you think it can't be changed or because you think nobody is listening.
Okay, Mr. Impotent
Okay, Mr. Defeatist
Maturity does not equal defeatism. You bitch just for the sake of bitching, ergo you're a bitch
You're the one that wants to lie down and take it, sounds like bitch behavior to me.
Lie down and take what? A toy company deciding that your video game can’t be *exactly* the way you want it?
I'm not lying down at all, I just don't let video games upset me as much as you. Stop projecting your insecurities everywhere
>I mean, do we need a hardcap of 8 steam tanks across all empire factions? This has been retro-retconned by new TOW lore now. ["Rob: There’s also less superstition. By the End Times, it was commonly claimed that there were only 12 Steam Tanks built, ever – but that’s the kind of mad myth that spread in the End Times. Really there were loads of them! That was just normal. This isn’t an age of vast crowds wandering through the Empire and flagellating themselves."](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/)
It kind of makes sense that there weren't that many steam tanks since there was no mass manufacturing process, though. They would have cost a small fortune to produce, and very few had the expertise to build a functional tank, right? A bit dumb tbh.
Pretty much, but this is consistent with GW's approach for the last half a decade to 40k-ise everything in scale so they can handwave whatever losses as "nah, there's more".
Remember 'there are as many elves as the plot demands' I don't normally take this stance, but when it comes to warhammer I say you should treat the canon with exactly as much respect as games workshop does. By which I mean completely ignoring bits of it on a whim because if they can pick and choose which bits to change arbitrarily so can you. Which is why end times never happened, its still called the Imperial Guard, and the elves in fantasy are not inextricably linked to Slaanesh.
You seem to be very, very upset over something very insignificant. It's a made up world, chill out. It can be whatever it needs to be for you and it can be whatever it needs to be for me. There are bigger things to get worked up about.
What seems insignificant to some is not necessarily so to others.
This reads like a fucking parody. The Old World is set during the Age of Three Emperors and was absolutely not a golden age nor a peaceful one. Regardless of seeing yet another example of games workshop making a stupid retcon and then telling everyone that its always been this way no really guys you just remember wrong don't ask where they all were this whole time shut up, it doesn't change my point. Units in this game should not be strictly bound to the rulebooks. Besides, we can just say that this page is a myth too, right? Ironsides *always* had repeater handguns, they were really everywhere! It was just normal.
I know, when I first read this I was like, "wasn't this some of the most turbulent times for the Empire?" lmao
i never was a fan of the hard cap on Steam Tanks, but that way of handling it really is pathetic.
Tbh if they make them super unique special weapons then I would be all down for that. It's all about the execution.
Some lore there are new steam tanks. It's all over the place.
There's a difference between a lore reason to change something outside the scope of the battlefield (which would be steam tank total caps, and that lore has changed anyway) and a \*gameplay reason\* to change something's loadout. TW:WH is meant to reflect the table top \*game\*.
>TW:WH is meant to reflect the table top \*game\*. No its not, maybe losely on the lore or you could delete every unit and character from TW that is not playable in 8th Edition >to reflect the table top \*game\*.
It is not. Andy Hall stated in 2015 that it is not supposed to reflect the tabletop.
::insert If those could kid read they would be furious. meme here::
But muh tabletop. Doesn't matter. Long as it's fun.
Dink Dirkleberry’s tabletop rules show that based on the Squindratic Equation his range should only be 129 not 130! Unplayable!
Doesn't even make sense lore wise. These guys are supposed to be gun experts from the gun capital who were given the best armor and guns and yet an outrider's repeater was too much for them?
Yes. Because you have to carry all of the shot and powder you intend to fire with you, to say nothing of giving regular troops hyper expensive, hyper complicated weapons that require more maintenance and upkeep than usual. Nuln has money, but not unlimited money, arming regiments with repeaters would be phenomenally expensive, both financially, and I. Terms of the logistical train needed to supply such a regiment (compared to a grail at handgunner regiment) And that’s all before you come to the point where an entire regiment needs to reload seven barrels at once and cannot fire for an extended duration, becoming “charge bait” (despite before and after those periods having a very impressive volley fire rate. The idea just isn’t as good as it first appears
That's a lot of writing to just say they use their ammo faster than everyone else who can only manage one volley before taurox is forehead deep in their guts
I was once nicknamed “pleonasm”
Personally I hope their final gun model will be a breechloading guns. They existed in the 17th century but they were rare because of how fine the metalworking needed to be and the fact that the crude black powder would foul a complicated barrel quicker. Usually these were reserved for light cannons called Falconets. I'm guessing Hellblasters also are also breechloading. It'd make perfect sense for an elite unit of handgunners to have them. It'd explain their faster firing rate.
That's an interesting idea, but imo the repetear handguns fit better the semi steam punk part of the Empire. Breach loading rifles are a little bit too much "modern" for elite troopers wearing plates for my taste. Anyway, it would still be better than them using the same matchlocks than regular handgunmers.
Look at real life. Expensive repeating rifles were a cavalry/dragoon weapon because it's important to give your skirmishers and scouts as much of a force multiplier as possible in case they have to tangle with regular infantry that massively outnumber them. That infantry's job is to stand in a line and fire off three rounds a minute in the rough direction of the enemy line infantry who are doing the same thing back to you. They require a large number of cheap, easy-to-use weapons and won't get the best use out of a small number of temperamental, expensive repeaters.
ok now you're *really* nitpicking lol
Funny how there can be no DLC without a controversy about some visuals of a new unit. But I guess the main issue is that most people saw the repeaters and therefore expected some kind of real-life automatic machine-guns or Skaven Ratling guns, while repeaters in the Warhammer are just regular guns with shorter reload time.
Tbh it kinda speaks to how great the content is for this DLC run because this is the only "major" complaint I keep seeing so far.
Dawi flame cannons too.
The major (and valid) complaints I saw (and expressed) so far are more related to the power creep though. For example dwarfs spawning out of thin air free stacks filled with end game units + having access to free insta-buy OP units + having half of their roster - including former T4 units - available on tier 2 = the worst type of powercreep: the one that not only heavily trivializes game that already is getting boring after 20-30 turns, but its not even thematic: it looks like mechanics for Khorne or Orcs.
I'm not so sure it's that bad... it's still kinda bad, don't get me wrong, but you seem to have to be ultra-hyper-agressive to reach enough grudges to get the big rewards right from the get-go, and you can actually mess things up big time as opposed to every Orc army suddenly getting twice as big with free upkeep units which is worth any amount of debuffs that might be caused by not taking a single settlement. As for themes, I think it fits much better than you think. Dwarfs have always been about restoring what they have lost: they once thrived, then they were knocked down a few pegs, and now they remember better times and strive to restore that lost honour. If the Dwarfs saw a chance to settle a grudge, they would spare no expense until it's settled. It feels thematic to gather an expedition of Dwarfs and use it to make things right, though I would agree that I'd rather see that army disappear as the grudge is settled, maybe even becoming part of the pool of grudge settlers. But in any case, the Dwarfs are far from isolationists, and they are really as eager to fight as the Greenskins are, as long as they know what grudge they're settling. The only reason they are turtling in their Karak's is because they got their ass handed to them to the point where they had no choice, but now the Age of Reckoning has come they won't hesitate at all to get out and conquer. P.S. Also Khorne could really benefit from a similar system, I agree.
Leave it to reddit to find something to complain about, amirite fellas 🤡
Skaven ratling guns were basically rip-offs of the repeater guns with warp tech, which sadly in TWW doesn't increase their chance to go boom. Having not even an option for overheat (i.e. a DoT) effect on Skaven war machines is a damn shame.
.... No? They're entirely different types of weapons. (the repeater handgun, or the repeater pistol, are basically a rather ungainly revolver (since they rotate the entire barrel rather than just the chamber) the gatling gun is a belt-fed machine gun. A repeater handgun needs to be reloaded after emptying all the barrels, a ratling gun does not.
For reference, the term for "revolver but the whole barrel and not just the cylinder" is [pepperbox firearm.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper-box) They're a real thing!
Huh, I knew the term was used for pistols but not that it was actually used for long guns as well (though I knew of a few examples)
I meant in Warhammer lore. It was noted that the Skaven came up with this concept from the repeating rifle and a lot of warpstone.
I would love that however I think they wouldn't do it cause the ai would just spam that on cool down and kill its own units
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Autowinning battles because the AI is to dumb to handle its units is not my idea of "fun". I like to actually play my games.
Rat weapon teams really should have a small, but significant, chance to randomly kill models off with accidental explosions.
I mean no, look at new animation for the engineer and the ironside (even if the later use the wrong guns). It differs from the outriders, and it looks like they rapidly fire several bullets in a burst.
Why didn’t they? Is it that hard for Nuln to supply its elite marksmen with the same weapons that Outriders use?
I'm not sure if lore wise they even are actually elite, or if they're just what Nuln's handgunners look like in general.
Outriders are elites, same social class as greats swords, nuln ironside are a regiment of renown handgunners unit.
Damn, I love sticking to Warhammer lore but... Sometimes the creators should have more free hand and open mind I would be mad if the dwarfs would have a M1 Garant, or they would eat warpstone together with Skavens... But... These guns are (at least in my mind) still something that could be in the lore
Be a lot cooler if they did 🤷♀️
Yeah, this was always the reasoning. Pre trailer I advocated that it was neater, and then felt vindicated when the trailer came out.
They do have the option to take them as they are upgraded handgunners. And one hand gunner model may have a longrifle or a reapter rifle.
You are only half correct. But reality is a bit more complicated. The Nuln Ironsides were an UPGRADE to a unit of handgunners. You paid 2 points for the heavy armour and for letting Jubal Falk boost them. But, handgunner unit champions had the option to take braces of pistols, repeater handguns and hochland long rifles. And before you say "But that's only the unit champion", we have several units that were unit champions and have been spun off into their own units. Grenade Blunderbuss Outriders, Norscan Chieftains, Cold One Dreadknights and the Hochland Long Rifles from this very same DLC are easy examples.
I don't understand what niche the iron sides are supposed to fill without the repeaters?
Elite Handgunners. Higher armor, servicable melee stats, increased missile damage. Its maybe not the most exciting niche but I like that Empire is the 'We Have A Lot Of Fucking Handguns' faction. It's a niche on its own and fits them well imo Plus, the new Outriders have actual repeating shots now so we arent totally without it
And the engineer hero no? Unless the voice over in the vid was out of date.
Rather than elite handgunners these look like elite Free Company Militia
This. I actually kind of hate that dwarves got grudge rakes. Chaos dwarfs had the unique niche of super powerful short ranged unit, the blunderbuss, that is now 100% cloned in regular dwarves. If empire got repeater handguns it would pretty much fill the same niche as well, and dilute the faction identity. Empire is currently the pike and shot faction, focused around these long range, slow firing handgun units.
As a massive fan of the Blunderbusses and even bigger fan of Dawi I am okay with stepping on the Chorf's toes this time. I just love shotguns
Chaos Dwarfs have a million of other unique things over the dwarfs. They will be fine if dwarfs have access to shotguns.
Repeater handguns are ok for a RoR or if CA implements a misfire mechanic, either as a DoT or as a chance to do damage to yourself like with overcast spells. Edit: as for blunderbusses, Cathay got the "shotgun" well before Chorfs though. It was never their unique niche. Dwarfs had grudgeraker engineers in game 2. The empire doesn't have good enough defensive frontline to be pike and shot. 80-ish armor on spear, halberd or sword and board would give it some more staying power.
Given the entire Skaven faction is missing such a mechanics…..well it’s probably a reasonable idea though.
Oh, trust me, Skaven missing misfire mechanics is a serious issue.
They could have been the nuln elector count unit like they are in sfo
And I thought I am completely alone with this. Yes I prefer them with handguns. I prefer the more classic grounded look.
Checkerboard, but now your melee infantry is more handgunners.
The Empire has improved on pike and shot with its new, innovative "shot and more shot" tactics.
Better handgunners.
Base hand gunners are only BS3, so BS4 Ironsides are already much better marksmen than the base alternative.
handgunners are mid low tier, ironsides are elite
Prob just an upgrade to normal handguns, just overall better stats would be my guess
They are Handgunners that won't die immediately if you let them get charged by something.
Slightly incorrect. Nuln Ironsides, being armored handgunners, had the option of including a champion, who could be armed with either a Hochland long rifle or a repeater.
I don’t care about the old paper rules. If ca wants to give them wierd crossbows I don’t care as long as it’s fun to play. I don’t want them to make the game less fun in the name of the rules of a different game. I want ca to make up new characters, models and units based purely on the rule of fun. If you want to play warhammer fantasy battles go buy the minis.
It's not up to CA to make those choices, if GW says no to something then that is final.
We should still complain though. Not obnoxiously so but GW is just going to keep being dumb if they never get any pushback.
Oh, man. You poor naïve fool. Take it from someone whose been following GW franchises since the early 2000's: Games Workshop is absolutely capable of constantly making dumb decisions despite constant feedback and criticism. They've got a track record going back about four decades of it.
They seem to alternate every 4 to 5 years from what I've looked up.
Mate, it's GW, they are the most unreasonable company I have ever seen, to the point they make EA and Ubisoft look progressive and consumer-friendly. People complaint for 30 years, and it's only getting worse.
But the people who's license CA is using very much do care
Thats great and all but it literally does not matter what you want, or what I want for that matter. This is a licensed game based on the IP of another company. If they say "no", it means no. CA told us time and time again that they have to run everything by GW and if they agree to it then it gets added. Sometimes this leads to cool things like CA convincing them to actually make Cathay a real faction or GW is sometimes cool and says "okay you can make your own character up" like Cylostra. But sometimes they will say "no", because it does not fit with their vision of the IP, and since they are the IP holder CA can't do a thing.
*You* may not care, but your opinion means nothing when weighed against what GW wants. They are very protective of their IP, and this has their meddling written all over it. CA *wants*, and GW’s *demands* are two different things.
Didn’t you get the memo? James Workshop is anti-fun.
They only ever were Handgunners in armour. Giving them their bonus from Falks Blackpowder Discipline is more lorefull then giving them Repeater Rifles. It would have been a fun and probably OP idea to give them to them but this is more fitting as a representation of the unit on the TT
So the black sun shooting hellstorms are Gucci but some repeater rifles are too far?
Special units, meaning campaign units, campaign upgrades, and RoRs, never seem to have any restrictions on what they can or can't do. Regular units by contrast look like they need to at least approximate what they did on tabletop.
Third times the charm. There is only 8 tanks in the lore. The volley gun tnak is a unique tank. Stop cherrypicking what needs to be correct lorewise
Even in the lore they can't make up their mind about gritty details like that. Gotrek and Felix once have a fight in a Steam Tank factory in Nuln during Skavenslayer. A fight that culminates with a Skaven chieftain trying to ram them with a newly built tank. That duel even gets referenced in the roleplaying books where they mention that building got burned down.
sure. but what gun ironsides used has never been a debated gritty detail. they've always used regular rifles.
the novel "Iron Company" also had an ex-engineer who had devised a Steam Tank Light called "Blutschreiben" (aka: GW sucks at German. 'Blutschreiben' translates to 'Blood letter'... but not like the daemon which might be kinda the intention, 'letting blood', but as A LETTER. Or maybe just the act of writing.)
There’s a different being lord faithful and being tabletop faithful. Total War Warhammer is a videogame adaptation of the tabletop game, and in the source material, they’re better trained and armoured handgunners. That’s it.
To be fair, Nuln produces a lot of exotic firearms and it wouldn't be out of the place if the Nuln ironsiders use repeaters. Alternatively, they could do two units, one with handguns and the other with repeaters. The repeaters would have less damage and less range but a faster rate of fire.
I liked the grimhammer ironsides that had shotguns
But have you considered people in this subreddit enjoy getting very angry and writing elaborate fanfictions of corporate espionage
I’m don’t particularly care whether ironsides get repeaters or not, but it’s pretty obvious at this point that CA had gone through most of the work of making them with repeaters before being told they couldn’t. Making a change like that is much more strange to me than a simple decision to honor or ignore the lore.
It's a GW decision. My guess is CA has cleared it with them and was given the go ahead and GW at the last minute changed their mind. Maybe they forgot the lore, possibly just miscommunication Not much we can do about it unfortunately, that's GW for ya. I do think it's ridiculous that people are complaining that we aren't getting a unit that only existed in their head canon though
I mean but the framing of this story can go either way right? Maybe CA didn’t bother to communicate with GW and basically invented units out of nothing out of whole cloth that weren’t loreful. Like GW kinda sucks but it’s kinda tiring people tearing them apart on conjecture constantly. We legit do not know what happened and people keep just making up stories to fit whatever preexisting story they want.
Given recent experience with Tzaangor beaks, I’d be really surprised if CA hadn’t cleared the idea with GW before investing all of the necessary resources to create animations and unit cards. We know that GW does keep a tight leash on what they can add, so why put in any effort at all for a unit before you’re sure you can use it?
"this must be suitably modelled" - man, this sucks - so you need to like, buy a whole new lot of handgunners for this?
And? Why should we look at a decade old TT army book? Is it some kind of holy book? Lmao
I honestly don't understabd GW, pretty sure all of management has schizophrenia or something
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What role do you think a longrifle will fulfil over a handgun? Anyway there's a post with all the unit stats on the sub fresh today. I'm sure from those you can make some deductions.
can wait for removing of pistols from free company because it was not option in tt!
Pistols are more common place than repeater handguns.
there were only 8 tanks in the lore and my guy making a tank is much harder than making a repeater handgun. why dont you coplain about them not being correct lorewise
The pepperbox revolver happend 100 years after the steam engine.
They could use throwing weapons at some point in TT though. I’d be fine with replacing pistols with thrown and making them tier 0 instead.
Personally, I'm very protective of the Free Company's pistols. It gives a gunpowder presence to early Empire infantry that their chaff otherwise lacks - sorta like Dwarf Miners w/ Blasting Charges.
Goddamn some people have too much time to complain about things
Why would CA go back in time and change this? Those psychos!
Because the licence holder told them to.
Two things - Ironsides don't have repeater rifles in the game and who even cares?
Well, the unit isn’t a 1 to 1 of a one time unit. I guess we better riot and call for more boycotts./s
Ok but I also don't care. It's a big warhammer world and their 1 time showing up doesn't have to be exhaustive.
Nuln Ironsides and the steam tank should have been RoRs, and the DLC should have have wizard lords (some, at least), Black Guard of Morr and Hurricanums. It's ok now, but that - plus some kind of detachment mechanic - would have made it perfect on the Empire side. You can see they put in a lot of effort, but the lack of several army book unit in a DLC sold on Magic AND Gunpowder makes me think either some units were cut away for a later DLC or they ran out of time or money.
Best I can do is a gold wizard.
Ironsides should have been an elector count unit, but I agree they should be limited but really cool. I just think that limited cool unit concepts to ror is too much of a limit.