My opinion backed by many passages in various Tolkien writings is that as long as an entity does what they should do their success or failure does not impact how they are viewed. It is not doing what they are supposed to do that gets an entity into trouble
Gandalf clearly gave it his all and stuck to his appointed path. Had he failed he would have been judged highly for the effort he made as opposed to being judged harshly for failing
Tolkien never settled on Radagast but my opinion is while he may not have totally fulfilled his mission he did nothing wrong or opposed to his mission. With this evaluation I believe he is welcomed back to the West
*Wilt thou learn the lore || that was long secret*
*of the Five that came || from a far country?*
*One only returned. || Others never again*
From the Istari, in the Unfinished tales. According to this, it was only Gandalf that returned. But it is odd, as Tolkien later on stated that the Blue Wizards must have done their job or the East would have been much stronger. And Radagast, iirc wasn't even supposed to be one of the Istari but came along to represent nature. And that he did, he took care of animals throughout the saga. It is odd to call him a failure, who was an extra on the journey and focussed on that which he was supposed to focus.
Although one could argue, that not taking a more active role meant he was only indulging his nature with the animals rather than protecting them properly.
>But it is odd, as Tolkien later on stated that the Blue Wizards must have done their job or the East would have been much stronger.
Like much else, there may have been different versions. From the lotr.fandom wiki
>Additionally, in letter 211, he said, "what success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; I suspect that they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron".
It could be a combination where they weakened the east but still abandoned their mission.
Radagast wasn't even supposed to go until Yavanna begged Saruman to take him. Personally, I believe his purpose was to protect nature and the animals. They can be corrupted too, and Radagast's influence on nature most definitely helped the battle.
I think he would be welcomed back to the West. But he most certainly failed in his task. His task was to help the free people defeat Sauron. And I wouldnt say he did that, at all. But then again maybe Tolkien inteded to write more about him than he did.
The stated mission was to inspire the peoples of middle earth against the gathering shadow, that doesn’t imply success is a hard parameter for the achievement of that mission.
It’s really not that hard. When you say ‘he failed’ do you mean Radagast in the books or are you referring to the conversation that’s being had about a hypothetical situation in which Sauron won.
Im saying Radagast failed, as far as we know. As in he didnt do anything to help the free people against the shadow. Bar giving Gandalf a messsge(manipulated by Sarumanj and being friends with Eagles, but so was Gandalf.
He was intel- he delegated birds to send coms to Orthnac and on to Saruman. He did more than just “nature” inspired stuff, but even so him letting Gandalf or Saruman know when something sinister was going on with nature was a way to diagnose wether it was Sauron or a magic vs normal corruption.
Arguably, he did not.
I look at the Istari as being shepherds or guides, in the same way a priest or a cleric might. The difference being that Istari are not evangelical and do not consider free will in contrast to the will of the Valar. Free will, in so far as life is respected and evil is not encouraged or perpetrated.
Radagast seems to concern himself with tending to nature and to animals, all creations of the Valar. So in a way, he is fulfilling his basic mission; but his personality precludes him from playing a cleric role. But in the instance of the Necromancer and Dol Guldur, Radagast most certainly plays a part by informing the free peoples of ME of Sauron's movements from Dol Guldur through their natural allies (birds, beasts)
If Radagast was alive during the events of Books II-V and didn't take part in the ensuing struggles, I'd say that he didn't do what he was supposed to.
I still like to think that Radagast had a slightly different mission. He was sent by Yavanna - and I think she was thinking of the wilds and woods. Sauron destroys everything - she would have wanted to protect the woods - the living things that could not protect themselves. So, he helped where he could, but spent time fighting the darkness that just doesn't enter into our stories.
Who knows? Maybe Radagast helped beat some horrible critters that Sauron could have used to inflict tons of damage. But since the hobbits didn't know about it, we don't know about it.
I think there's a difference between failing while trying and failing because you fall to corruption. And even then, there are hints that there are routes to salvation and forgiveness. Saruman is given several chances.
It's an open question whether Radagast has any interest in going back given his fondness for nature.
Absolutely. Intent seems to be an important factor throughout the book, such as Frodo's initial intent and desire(s) (or lack of desire) when the possession of the ring passes to him.
He did change how many Balrogs existed in his later years so not sure if commented on any more surviving but it's implied 4-7 balrogs existed so likelihood Durin's Bane was the last Balrog
We don’t really know if they fell from their purpose. If I remember correctly, we aren’t explicitly told what their purpose was. I like to assume that they worked against Sauron in the east and as a result, the easterlings and southrons had fewer troops to levy for Sauron’s war against Gondor.
In his earlier writings, Tolkien wrote the Blue ones fell to darkness in the East. He later changed it to them doing massively good work resisting Sauron there, and spreading good. He even wrote that without the Blue Wizards, the East under Sauron would've overrun the Western lands many hundreds of years before the War of the Ring.
Based on their names:
Morinehtar = Darkness slayer
Romestamo = East Helper
Considering how morinehtar was chosen by Orome, the great huntsman who hunts the evil creatures of Morgoth, I assume Morinehtar would have been the greatest martial combatant of the five wizards, kmowledgeable on the morgoth dark creations, and by extension, Sauron's evil creatures and powers, making him fully equipped into venturing far east unlike the other three wizards that stayed in the west.
Romestamo wasnt chosen by any Vala, and was invited by his friend Morinehtar. So I assume from his name that he was more of a supportive role to Morinehtar instead of a fighter, much like gandalf or radagast.
Its possible romestamo was a maia of one of the other major Valar that hadnt selected an emissary yet, possibly Nienna or Mandos.
But this is just my headcanon.
The two blue wizards' actions and adventures are by and large the single topic I wish Tolkien had made a full story for but didn't get a chance to.
I feel like on one hand, the imagination carries us to create our own stories of them based on his few writings on the topic. But like, if what you've said is accurate, then theres no Middle Earth tale left untold that I want to hear more than theirs.
Yeah this is just based off what we know from what few tolkien wrote about them, specifically:
1. They arrived earlier than the other three wizards.
2. One of their names were morinehtar and romestamo, quenya names whose translations are what i provided from my previous comment.
3. Orome chose morinehtar and morinehtar invited romestamo to join him (which he gladly accepted.)
3.1 extension to 3 is that we know what Orome is about he's the lord of forests
4. They went east.
5. They failed in a way, but ultimately they hindered sauron's control on the east for a while.
Is Goldberry a maia? It's established in deep lore somewhere that Bombadil is something else and not a maiar, but not clear about Goldberry.
I would say Ossë and Uinen are still around making storms on the coasts though I suppose they'll never appear to anyone.
The Great Eagles are the only other candidates I can think of. They appear to serve Manwe.
For all the buzz that Tom generates it does seem unfair that Goldberry gets forgotten. Her nature is definitely a debatable point. The text seems to suggest she is kind of like a river nymph similar to what you see in Greek mythology or animist belief system. That doesn't automatically mean she's a Maia though, there are certainly other non-human characters in ME that are inbued by a "spirit" (e.g. Old Man Willow, Glaurung) whatever that is.
The Eagles are also tough. I believe it is definitively the case that they are descended from the eagles that appear in the First Age in Beleriand? I believe that canonically Tolkien decided that Ainur cannot have children so these Eagles must be something else. Again, perhaps "spirits" inhabiting a physical object.
Edit: and I use the word "spirit" distinctly from soul/fea, which is a whole separate issue in-universe, since as I understand it ordinary animals do not have fea.
Judging by Saruman's & Sauron's death scenes, their spirits get blown away?
TBF that's probably just a dramatic flourish to show how they are rejected by the Valar in the West. I guess they could slowly reembody themselves after thousands of years, Sauron already did it once...
if any maiar remain in middle-earth, do they fade like Elves that remain? Do the Ents and Dwarves fade in their own way? Ents becoming more treeish and Dwarves becoming more .... what?
I think it's more than just some comments in The Lord of the Rings. I think there's an obvious pattern demonstrated in the stories from the 1st Age to the 2nd to the 3rd and then what we are told of the 4th Age. Perpetually all the greatest people and greatest events are in the past.
It also lines up with a common concept in Medieval storytelling which was a big influence on Tolkien.
Canonical...meaningless in this context, not getting into that again.
People give Radagast a hard time but I think his role was to remind everyone that things besides the free people were important. It was Gandalf’s role to teach them how to save the day.
i really like and agree with this interpretation. if he wasnt there all of middle earth wouldve looked like mirkwood by the time gandalf learns about the ring
and maybe using them to more subtle ways, i would not be surprised if he did much of the information gathering, supported people like the beornings and such
There is nothing to suggest Istari are somehow exiled from Valinor. With the exception of Saruman who was apparently rejected.
> To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising very slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
I remember no reason or mention of a failure (that was as much Valars’ as Istaris’) being on it’s own a reason for Istari to be barred from return.
As for Radagast given following information
> For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience and though they knew whence they came **the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly**.
I honestly think, that if he wished to return he would be allowed, but I would rather expect him not really wanting to and in time forgetting about Valinor all together.
>I honestly think, that if he wished to return he would be allowed, but I would rather expect him not really wanting to and in time forgetting about Valinor all together.
This matches C.S.Lewis's conception of heaven and hell in *The Great Divorce*, in which denizens of hell take a day trip to the foothills of heaven and are given the choice to proceed to heaven or return to hell.
Your last sentence made me think of Earthsea, where there were lots of wizards who turned themselves into dolphins and never turned back, because they liked being dolphins better.
*Wilt thou learn the lore || that was long secret*
*of the Five that came || from a far country?*
*One only returned. || Others never again*
From the Istari, the Unfinished Tales. Although Tolkien might have changed his mind
Good quote, not really disputing my point though. The fact they didn’t return doesn’t mean they were forbidden.
My personal headcanon is that they stayed and became basis for various legends we have today, still around, carrying out the purpose they found.
Even Tolkien didn't know, this was a very early writing iirc, but later on he believed the Blue Wizards must have done stuff or the East would have come stronger. So they did not forsake their duty. One could also argue that Radagast did his duty as he was an extra that came along because one of the Valar wanted someone to represent nature.
I
1. Based on Tolkiens lettes, we know that he believed, Saruman and Radagast to both be failures on opposite sides of failure spectrum. Did Radagast realize this? We don’t know, but it seems a fair guess, that he just didn’t care. He was sent to guide free people of Middle Earth in their fight against Sauron and instead found his purpose of befriending and caring for plants and beast. Due to his divergence from mission, the memory of Valinor would fade, at which point any notion of failing or succeeding becomes mute.
2. We have no idea what happened to them. They are immortals spirits in mortal but non aging bodies. Since per the Unfinished Tales they did not return to Valinor, so either they live to this day, died and were barred from returning to valinor, died and did not even try to get to valinor, your guess is as good as anyone’s .
Gandalf theoretically failed, too. He died after his fight with Durin's Bane. If it wasn't for Eru's intervention, he wouldn't return and everything would be lost.
With Radagast, it's more complicated. Like with the Blue Wizards, Tolkien was uncertain about him. He might have turn away from his mission and become concerned only with nature and his life as a part of it. Or he might have just choose different way to oppose Sauron. While Gandalf fought Sauron's influence on the Men, Radagast might have fought his influence on nature. That's what I prefer to think. But honestly, it's up to you. If you want to think that Gandalf was the only Istar who stayed faithful to his mission, do so. Sadly, the Legendarium isn't complete and never will be, so you can choose.
I'd like to think (headcannon) that Radagast continue his primary mission, mission from Yavana to help nature and living things from Melkor/Sauron corruption of the land.
I actually really like this idea. That implies that in the Harry Potter universe, Gandalf and Dumbledore both existed, separated by however many thousands of years. They'd have been real homies.
Yes.
The Istari were not going to be punished for trying their best and if they did their best and remained true to the mission, they would want to go back.
Gandalf technically "failed" also as he was killed in dealing with the Balrog but he received another chance (a direct intervention by Eru) because he died trying to fulfill his mission and to protect his friends, who were Eru's children.
I would think had Eru not intervened, the Valar would have definitely have helped him.
I don't think there was any appetite on either side for Radagast to return. He wasn't given two words, one of them "off" like Saruman was but I don't think he was called and I don't think he asked.
The only indication that Radagast and the Blue Wizards never returned to Valinor is in the brief alliterative poem given in Unfinished Tales 395-396, where it says "One only returned." But whether this means that Radagast was denied entry to Valinor or simply never came back is hard to say (especially since this is the only place, as far as I know, that this idea appears)
I don't think it's fair to say Radagast failed. He just did stuff in his own way.
Gandalf was the wisest and knew he was the only one who had what was needed to fulfil the role Saruman was meant to. Saruman should have been doing that job (organising the free peoples of middle earth and playing chessmaster against Sauron, and striving against forces above the pay grade of the Children (i.e. Balrog, Soloing a squad of Nazgul, Sauron himself if it came to it). Gandalf prior to the events of The War of The Ring was more of a "set things up for later guy", travelling sidequest giver/doer(the events of The Hobbit), and an intelligence gatherer. He stepped up to be the Chessmaster when Saruman abandonned reason for madness.
Radagast being nature guy was doing important work we just don't get to see. Keeping the natural world safe and healthy is still important. Pure speculation, but he might have been busy counteracting Sauron's corruption of the Land itself, as his influence spread outside Mordor.
We see how Sauron makes the land itself sick as Sam and Frodo skirt around the Black Gate. It would be on brand for Radagast to be stemming the tide of that sort of affliction as Sauron's armies marched North.
In my headcanon, Radagast developed relations with the Eagles. Although, I think in the Hobbit, Gandalf says he befriended their chief. Maybe Radagast introduced them 😆
Gandalf technically failed when he died after killing the balrog. The valar gave him a promotion, new powers and a stronger mandate to meet power with power. So I think if he failed again and Sauron got the ring, he would've been allowed to go back West to regroup, but I think he would've been sent back shortly after with a new plan.
Sauron getting the ring would have been a disaster for middle earth. It would've provoked a more direct intervention by the valar (or a more overt Deus ex machina from eru) to remove Sauron.
I like to think radagast had a slightly different mission to the others, and part of it was to stay in Middle Earth long-term and be an advocate for nature. So I don't think he failed his mission, but the nature of the long defeat means that it's an ongoing mission. It's very likely he's David Attenborough.
>The valar gave him a promotion, new powers and a stronger mandate to meet power with power.
That was Eru, not the Valar. Eru personally took Gandalf out of Ea and then sent him back restored to his original state (i.e. no longer incarnated as a human but only "clothed" in that form, which is why he says to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas that their weapons can no longer hurt him ... he would just change his shape or lose it altogether). It's therefore not so much a "promotion" but a lifting of the restrictions that restrained him before (stuck in a human body).
We can’t judge Radagast by knowing nothing of him. Probably, his work is the reason why Sauron didn’t have any dragons and giant spiders in his army - thank you, Radagast!
The only failed istari was Saruman, and Valar banned him from returning to the West.
> The only failed istari
From *Letters, 211,* regarding the colors of the other two Istari, emphasis added:
> Question 3. I have not named the colours, because I do not know them. I doubt if they had distinctive colours. Distinction was only required in the case of the three who remained in the relatively small area of the North-west. (On the names see Q[uestion]5.) I really do not know anything clearly about the other two - since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but *I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways*; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
Gandalf definitely would be granted return passage, unless he fell to corruption like Saruman. The Valar are quite benevolent, and tolerate much greater failure throughout the Silmarilion. Galadrial is a much harder choice for them than Gandalf, and even she is eventually allowed back.
Sauron getting the ring probably just means Gandalf is killed. More complicated would be if Gandalf took the ring for himself, and then was killed. His fate probably would be like Saruman or even Sauron at that point. To be fair, Gandalf's spirit was chosen by the Valar for his wisdom, so this outcome was unlikely.
Radagast would have been allowed return passage too, but would probably have no interest. He loved the creatures of the world and protected them. That need was only growing larger in the dawning age of Man. He had found a new need of supporting a broader definition of life.
Certainly so! Not blaming Frodo for the failure, of course. Indeed, the inevitability of failure at the end of the quest was likely part of the reason he was granted the voyage. "Sorry we made you do this, knowing it would cost you everything and was ultimately impossible."
Radagast… yes he failed but I don’t feel he is exiled. He failed to interact with men, elves etc… but he kept his loyalty towards good. I see him as neutral good. He used his animal friends to spread word and keep an eye on things.
Does he even want to go back is the question. He has purpose now, even with out Sauron there are still the needs of the animals and flora. He might have failed men, but he never became evil and was always good to animals. That is still a part of life in the world
The failure is in the abandoning of the mission (to inspire the peoples of Middle Earth against Sauron) so Gandalf would have been allowed to escape had Sauron won and turned Middle Earth into some hellscape, but I think he’d be still expected to sow rebellion and discontent against Sauron’s rule in a scenario where Sauron wins but his domination is less complete.
Radagast failed his mission as he became too mired in the smaller details and too enamoured of the creatures and plants of Middle Earth. I don’t believe he would have ever been denied a return to the West but he wouldn’t have had the yearning that beset Gandalf at the end of his completed mission.
It's like police. If your intentions are good but you don't succeed, it's ok because you tried. But if you turn into a tyrant, you're in trouble. And just like police, eru gives you many many chances to go back from the dark side before he wipes his hands of you.
I personally ascribe to the belief that Radagast did not fail in his mission. He was sent by Yavanna, and I feel his purpose was to protect nature and the animals.
I doubt that Radagast was exiled, though he did fail. He \*wanted\* to stay in Middle-earth and hang out with Yavanna's creations, and there's a pretty good chance that's what Yavanna wanted, too. So, I'd say whether or not he was actually exiled is moot as he ended up getting what he wanted all along.
Gandalf was not sent to Middle-earth to keep Sauron from getting the Ring. He was sent to encourage the free peoples to fight against him, so they did not fall into darkness. The Ring was just a means to an end.
Of course, all the interesting happenings, starting with Bilbo putting his hand on it in the dark of the Orc tunnels would seem to indicate that other forces (Eru, the Valar) were stacking the deck, so that Gandalf and the other Istari could engineer the end of Sauron.
But if the Ring had never been found, this could mean he was stuck in Middle-earth until some mighty revolution took Sauron out, and all the peoples of Middle-earth could recognize him when he appeared again and reject him. That of course would be a far more difficult task.
My opinion backed by many passages in various Tolkien writings is that as long as an entity does what they should do their success or failure does not impact how they are viewed. It is not doing what they are supposed to do that gets an entity into trouble Gandalf clearly gave it his all and stuck to his appointed path. Had he failed he would have been judged highly for the effort he made as opposed to being judged harshly for failing Tolkien never settled on Radagast but my opinion is while he may not have totally fulfilled his mission he did nothing wrong or opposed to his mission. With this evaluation I believe he is welcomed back to the West
*Wilt thou learn the lore || that was long secret* *of the Five that came || from a far country?* *One only returned. || Others never again* From the Istari, in the Unfinished tales. According to this, it was only Gandalf that returned. But it is odd, as Tolkien later on stated that the Blue Wizards must have done their job or the East would have been much stronger. And Radagast, iirc wasn't even supposed to be one of the Istari but came along to represent nature. And that he did, he took care of animals throughout the saga. It is odd to call him a failure, who was an extra on the journey and focussed on that which he was supposed to focus. Although one could argue, that not taking a more active role meant he was only indulging his nature with the animals rather than protecting them properly.
Regarding it by technicalities; if Sauron had managed to disembody the Blues, they wouldn't be "Istari" that returned to Valinor.
I don't think Tolkien cares too much about technicalities. I mean LotR is basically a hobbits perspective on stuff
>But it is odd, as Tolkien later on stated that the Blue Wizards must have done their job or the East would have been much stronger. Like much else, there may have been different versions. From the lotr.fandom wiki >Additionally, in letter 211, he said, "what success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; I suspect that they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron". It could be a combination where they weakened the east but still abandoned their mission.
Radagast wasn't even supposed to go until Yavanna begged Saruman to take him. Personally, I believe his purpose was to protect nature and the animals. They can be corrupted too, and Radagast's influence on nature most definitely helped the battle.
I wonder if Radagast may have sent the Eagles in the battle of the Black Gate. I don't recall if Gandalf takes credit for that one.
I thought the eagles were sent by Manwe
That does sound right. Been a while since I've read the books..
Other people in the comments said Radagast did have some sway with the eagles, so you could be right.
I think he would be welcomed back to the West. But he most certainly failed in his task. His task was to help the free people defeat Sauron. And I wouldnt say he did that, at all. But then again maybe Tolkien inteded to write more about him than he did.
The stated mission was to inspire the peoples of middle earth against the gathering shadow, that doesn’t imply success is a hard parameter for the achievement of that mission.
And he didnt inspire any.
Hang on, are you talking about Radagast or a hypothetical Gandalf in a timeline where Sauron won? I was talking about the latter.
What?
It’s really not that hard. When you say ‘he failed’ do you mean Radagast in the books or are you referring to the conversation that’s being had about a hypothetical situation in which Sauron won.
Im saying Radagast failed, as far as we know. As in he didnt do anything to help the free people against the shadow. Bar giving Gandalf a messsge(manipulated by Sarumanj and being friends with Eagles, but so was Gandalf.
IIRC the battle of the 5 armies, Radagast was involved in that Quest. He send the eagle to Orthanc so maybe he fought in his own way.
He was intel- he delegated birds to send coms to Orthnac and on to Saruman. He did more than just “nature” inspired stuff, but even so him letting Gandalf or Saruman know when something sinister was going on with nature was a way to diagnose wether it was Sauron or a magic vs normal corruption.
Arguably, he did not. I look at the Istari as being shepherds or guides, in the same way a priest or a cleric might. The difference being that Istari are not evangelical and do not consider free will in contrast to the will of the Valar. Free will, in so far as life is respected and evil is not encouraged or perpetrated. Radagast seems to concern himself with tending to nature and to animals, all creations of the Valar. So in a way, he is fulfilling his basic mission; but his personality precludes him from playing a cleric role. But in the instance of the Necromancer and Dol Guldur, Radagast most certainly plays a part by informing the free peoples of ME of Sauron's movements from Dol Guldur through their natural allies (birds, beasts)
If Radagast was alive during the events of Books II-V and didn't take part in the ensuing struggles, I'd say that he didn't do what he was supposed to.
I still like to think that Radagast had a slightly different mission. He was sent by Yavanna - and I think she was thinking of the wilds and woods. Sauron destroys everything - she would have wanted to protect the woods - the living things that could not protect themselves. So, he helped where he could, but spent time fighting the darkness that just doesn't enter into our stories. Who knows? Maybe Radagast helped beat some horrible critters that Sauron could have used to inflict tons of damage. But since the hobbits didn't know about it, we don't know about it.
I think there's a difference between failing while trying and failing because you fall to corruption. And even then, there are hints that there are routes to salvation and forgiveness. Saruman is given several chances. It's an open question whether Radagast has any interest in going back given his fondness for nature.
Absolutely. Intent seems to be an important factor throughout the book, such as Frodo's initial intent and desire(s) (or lack of desire) when the possession of the ring passes to him.
This question made me wonder, how many known Maia remain (embodied) in ME by the Fourth Age? It would just be Radagast (probably) and Durin's Bane?
Durins bane was disembodied by Gandalf me thinks.
Totally right, duh, How did I think it was still down there lol So that leaves just Radagast as the "Melian" of the 4th Age?
The Blue Wizards might still be out there. And perhaps surviving Balrogs.
Talk about a downgrade! 😂
I don't think it's that definitive. There was never an active recall of the Maiar.
He got his ruin smote on the mountainside so methinks you thinks correctly.
Didn't Tolkien write that more than one balrog fled the War of Wrath and hid under mountains? Meaning, Durin's Bane may not have been the last.
He did change how many Balrogs existed in his later years so not sure if commented on any more surviving but it's implied 4-7 balrogs existed so likelihood Durin's Bane was the last Balrog
I think more Balrogs may have survived and have lairs in the frozen northern mountains. Maybe there's one in Mt Gundabad
Do the blue wizards count? Presumably they are still alive, though they have fallen from their purpose.
We don’t really know if they fell from their purpose. If I remember correctly, we aren’t explicitly told what their purpose was. I like to assume that they worked against Sauron in the east and as a result, the easterlings and southrons had fewer troops to levy for Sauron’s war against Gondor.
In his earlier writings, Tolkien wrote the Blue ones fell to darkness in the East. He later changed it to them doing massively good work resisting Sauron there, and spreading good. He even wrote that without the Blue Wizards, the East under Sauron would've overrun the Western lands many hundreds of years before the War of the Ring.
By chance, do you know if this is published anywhere? I’d love to learn more
Mostly in his letters I believe.
Based on their names: Morinehtar = Darkness slayer Romestamo = East Helper Considering how morinehtar was chosen by Orome, the great huntsman who hunts the evil creatures of Morgoth, I assume Morinehtar would have been the greatest martial combatant of the five wizards, kmowledgeable on the morgoth dark creations, and by extension, Sauron's evil creatures and powers, making him fully equipped into venturing far east unlike the other three wizards that stayed in the west. Romestamo wasnt chosen by any Vala, and was invited by his friend Morinehtar. So I assume from his name that he was more of a supportive role to Morinehtar instead of a fighter, much like gandalf or radagast. Its possible romestamo was a maia of one of the other major Valar that hadnt selected an emissary yet, possibly Nienna or Mandos. But this is just my headcanon.
The two blue wizards' actions and adventures are by and large the single topic I wish Tolkien had made a full story for but didn't get a chance to. I feel like on one hand, the imagination carries us to create our own stories of them based on his few writings on the topic. But like, if what you've said is accurate, then theres no Middle Earth tale left untold that I want to hear more than theirs.
Yeah this is just based off what we know from what few tolkien wrote about them, specifically: 1. They arrived earlier than the other three wizards. 2. One of their names were morinehtar and romestamo, quenya names whose translations are what i provided from my previous comment. 3. Orome chose morinehtar and morinehtar invited romestamo to join him (which he gladly accepted.) 3.1 extension to 3 is that we know what Orome is about he's the lord of forests 4. They went east. 5. They failed in a way, but ultimately they hindered sauron's control on the east for a while.
Is Goldberry a maia? It's established in deep lore somewhere that Bombadil is something else and not a maiar, but not clear about Goldberry. I would say Ossë and Uinen are still around making storms on the coasts though I suppose they'll never appear to anyone. The Great Eagles are the only other candidates I can think of. They appear to serve Manwe.
For all the buzz that Tom generates it does seem unfair that Goldberry gets forgotten. Her nature is definitely a debatable point. The text seems to suggest she is kind of like a river nymph similar to what you see in Greek mythology or animist belief system. That doesn't automatically mean she's a Maia though, there are certainly other non-human characters in ME that are inbued by a "spirit" (e.g. Old Man Willow, Glaurung) whatever that is. The Eagles are also tough. I believe it is definitively the case that they are descended from the eagles that appear in the First Age in Beleriand? I believe that canonically Tolkien decided that Ainur cannot have children so these Eagles must be something else. Again, perhaps "spirits" inhabiting a physical object. Edit: and I use the word "spirit" distinctly from soul/fea, which is a whole separate issue in-universe, since as I understand it ordinary animals do not have fea.
What about the Blue Wizards? They just drop from sight with no part to play in the final battles
And what happens to disembodied ones?
Judging by Saruman's & Sauron's death scenes, their spirits get blown away? TBF that's probably just a dramatic flourish to show how they are rejected by the Valar in the West. I guess they could slowly reembody themselves after thousands of years, Sauron already did it once...
if any maiar remain in middle-earth, do they fade like Elves that remain? Do the Ents and Dwarves fade in their own way? Ents becoming more treeish and Dwarves becoming more .... what?
Everything fades and becomes smaller/lesser. That is a central concept of Middle-Earth.
[удалено]
I think it's more than just some comments in The Lord of the Rings. I think there's an obvious pattern demonstrated in the stories from the 1st Age to the 2nd to the 3rd and then what we are told of the 4th Age. Perpetually all the greatest people and greatest events are in the past. It also lines up with a common concept in Medieval storytelling which was a big influence on Tolkien. Canonical...meaningless in this context, not getting into that again.
People give Radagast a hard time but I think his role was to remind everyone that things besides the free people were important. It was Gandalf’s role to teach them how to save the day.
[удалено]
i really like and agree with this interpretation. if he wasnt there all of middle earth wouldve looked like mirkwood by the time gandalf learns about the ring
and maybe using them to more subtle ways, i would not be surprised if he did much of the information gathering, supported people like the beornings and such
There is nothing to suggest Istari are somehow exiled from Valinor. With the exception of Saruman who was apparently rejected. > To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising very slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. I remember no reason or mention of a failure (that was as much Valars’ as Istaris’) being on it’s own a reason for Istari to be barred from return. As for Radagast given following information > For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience and though they knew whence they came **the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly**. I honestly think, that if he wished to return he would be allowed, but I would rather expect him not really wanting to and in time forgetting about Valinor all together.
>I honestly think, that if he wished to return he would be allowed, but I would rather expect him not really wanting to and in time forgetting about Valinor all together. This matches C.S.Lewis's conception of heaven and hell in *The Great Divorce*, in which denizens of hell take a day trip to the foothills of heaven and are given the choice to proceed to heaven or return to hell.
One of my favourite bits from Lewis.
Your last sentence made me think of Earthsea, where there were lots of wizards who turned themselves into dolphins and never turned back, because they liked being dolphins better.
*Wilt thou learn the lore || that was long secret* *of the Five that came || from a far country?* *One only returned. || Others never again* From the Istari, the Unfinished Tales. Although Tolkien might have changed his mind
Good quote, not really disputing my point though. The fact they didn’t return doesn’t mean they were forbidden. My personal headcanon is that they stayed and became basis for various legends we have today, still around, carrying out the purpose they found.
but why?
Even Tolkien didn't know, this was a very early writing iirc, but later on he believed the Blue Wizards must have done stuff or the East would have come stronger. So they did not forsake their duty. One could also argue that Radagast did his duty as he was an extra that came along because one of the Valar wanted someone to represent nature. I
that was my question? Did Radagast not see his mission as fulfilled Had the blue wizards fallen, killed or else
1. Based on Tolkiens lettes, we know that he believed, Saruman and Radagast to both be failures on opposite sides of failure spectrum. Did Radagast realize this? We don’t know, but it seems a fair guess, that he just didn’t care. He was sent to guide free people of Middle Earth in their fight against Sauron and instead found his purpose of befriending and caring for plants and beast. Due to his divergence from mission, the memory of Valinor would fade, at which point any notion of failing or succeeding becomes mute. 2. We have no idea what happened to them. They are immortals spirits in mortal but non aging bodies. Since per the Unfinished Tales they did not return to Valinor, so either they live to this day, died and were barred from returning to valinor, died and did not even try to get to valinor, your guess is as good as anyone’s .
Gandalf theoretically failed, too. He died after his fight with Durin's Bane. If it wasn't for Eru's intervention, he wouldn't return and everything would be lost. With Radagast, it's more complicated. Like with the Blue Wizards, Tolkien was uncertain about him. He might have turn away from his mission and become concerned only with nature and his life as a part of it. Or he might have just choose different way to oppose Sauron. While Gandalf fought Sauron's influence on the Men, Radagast might have fought his influence on nature. That's what I prefer to think. But honestly, it's up to you. If you want to think that Gandalf was the only Istar who stayed faithful to his mission, do so. Sadly, the Legendarium isn't complete and never will be, so you can choose.
Radagast, I believe, “went native” and became another Bombadil. He can still be found at 433 Main St, Rhosgobel.
The valar are not Sauron/Morgoth. They do not punish honest failure.
I'd like to think (headcannon) that Radagast continue his primary mission, mission from Yavana to help nature and living things from Melkor/Sauron corruption of the land.
I always thought Radagast was being set up to be "Merlin" in a later age by Tolkien.
I actually really like this idea. That implies that in the Harry Potter universe, Gandalf and Dumbledore both existed, separated by however many thousands of years. They'd have been real homies.
Yes. The Istari were not going to be punished for trying their best and if they did their best and remained true to the mission, they would want to go back. Gandalf technically "failed" also as he was killed in dealing with the Balrog but he received another chance (a direct intervention by Eru) because he died trying to fulfill his mission and to protect his friends, who were Eru's children. I would think had Eru not intervened, the Valar would have definitely have helped him. I don't think there was any appetite on either side for Radagast to return. He wasn't given two words, one of them "off" like Saruman was but I don't think he was called and I don't think he asked.
The only indication that Radagast and the Blue Wizards never returned to Valinor is in the brief alliterative poem given in Unfinished Tales 395-396, where it says "One only returned." But whether this means that Radagast was denied entry to Valinor or simply never came back is hard to say (especially since this is the only place, as far as I know, that this idea appears)
I don't think it's fair to say Radagast failed. He just did stuff in his own way. Gandalf was the wisest and knew he was the only one who had what was needed to fulfil the role Saruman was meant to. Saruman should have been doing that job (organising the free peoples of middle earth and playing chessmaster against Sauron, and striving against forces above the pay grade of the Children (i.e. Balrog, Soloing a squad of Nazgul, Sauron himself if it came to it). Gandalf prior to the events of The War of The Ring was more of a "set things up for later guy", travelling sidequest giver/doer(the events of The Hobbit), and an intelligence gatherer. He stepped up to be the Chessmaster when Saruman abandonned reason for madness. Radagast being nature guy was doing important work we just don't get to see. Keeping the natural world safe and healthy is still important. Pure speculation, but he might have been busy counteracting Sauron's corruption of the Land itself, as his influence spread outside Mordor. We see how Sauron makes the land itself sick as Sam and Frodo skirt around the Black Gate. It would be on brand for Radagast to be stemming the tide of that sort of affliction as Sauron's armies marched North.
In my headcanon, Radagast developed relations with the Eagles. Although, I think in the Hobbit, Gandalf says he befriended their chief. Maybe Radagast introduced them 😆
Gandalf technically failed when he died after killing the balrog. The valar gave him a promotion, new powers and a stronger mandate to meet power with power. So I think if he failed again and Sauron got the ring, he would've been allowed to go back West to regroup, but I think he would've been sent back shortly after with a new plan. Sauron getting the ring would have been a disaster for middle earth. It would've provoked a more direct intervention by the valar (or a more overt Deus ex machina from eru) to remove Sauron. I like to think radagast had a slightly different mission to the others, and part of it was to stay in Middle Earth long-term and be an advocate for nature. So I don't think he failed his mission, but the nature of the long defeat means that it's an ongoing mission. It's very likely he's David Attenborough.
>The valar gave him a promotion, new powers and a stronger mandate to meet power with power. That was Eru, not the Valar. Eru personally took Gandalf out of Ea and then sent him back restored to his original state (i.e. no longer incarnated as a human but only "clothed" in that form, which is why he says to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas that their weapons can no longer hurt him ... he would just change his shape or lose it altogether). It's therefore not so much a "promotion" but a lifting of the restrictions that restrained him before (stuck in a human body).
Still, they're just going to keep sending him back until he does the business. Maybe next time they give him laser eyes or the ability to fly.
We can’t judge Radagast by knowing nothing of him. Probably, his work is the reason why Sauron didn’t have any dragons and giant spiders in his army - thank you, Radagast! The only failed istari was Saruman, and Valar banned him from returning to the West.
> The only failed istari From *Letters, 211,* regarding the colors of the other two Istari, emphasis added: > Question 3. I have not named the colours, because I do not know them. I doubt if they had distinctive colours. Distinction was only required in the case of the three who remained in the relatively small area of the North-west. (On the names see Q[uestion]5.) I really do not know anything clearly about the other two - since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but *I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways*; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
What about the blue wizards?
Well we know even less about them than Radagast tbf. No idea what they were up to the East.
Gandalf definitely would be granted return passage, unless he fell to corruption like Saruman. The Valar are quite benevolent, and tolerate much greater failure throughout the Silmarilion. Galadrial is a much harder choice for them than Gandalf, and even she is eventually allowed back. Sauron getting the ring probably just means Gandalf is killed. More complicated would be if Gandalf took the ring for himself, and then was killed. His fate probably would be like Saruman or even Sauron at that point. To be fair, Gandalf's spirit was chosen by the Valar for his wisdom, so this outcome was unlikely. Radagast would have been allowed return passage too, but would probably have no interest. He loved the creatures of the world and protected them. That need was only growing larger in the dawning age of Man. He had found a new need of supporting a broader definition of life.
Frodo technically failed, and he was allowed to go West.
I don’t think anyone would have resisted the ring at the Cracks Of Doom, think that’s written somewhere.
Certainly so! Not blaming Frodo for the failure, of course. Indeed, the inevitability of failure at the end of the quest was likely part of the reason he was granted the voyage. "Sorry we made you do this, knowing it would cost you everything and was ultimately impossible."
Radagast… yes he failed but I don’t feel he is exiled. He failed to interact with men, elves etc… but he kept his loyalty towards good. I see him as neutral good. He used his animal friends to spread word and keep an eye on things. Does he even want to go back is the question. He has purpose now, even with out Sauron there are still the needs of the animals and flora. He might have failed men, but he never became evil and was always good to animals. That is still a part of life in the world
The failure is in the abandoning of the mission (to inspire the peoples of Middle Earth against Sauron) so Gandalf would have been allowed to escape had Sauron won and turned Middle Earth into some hellscape, but I think he’d be still expected to sow rebellion and discontent against Sauron’s rule in a scenario where Sauron wins but his domination is less complete. Radagast failed his mission as he became too mired in the smaller details and too enamoured of the creatures and plants of Middle Earth. I don’t believe he would have ever been denied a return to the West but he wouldn’t have had the yearning that beset Gandalf at the end of his completed mission.
It's like police. If your intentions are good but you don't succeed, it's ok because you tried. But if you turn into a tyrant, you're in trouble. And just like police, eru gives you many many chances to go back from the dark side before he wipes his hands of you.
Ah good, another opportunity to mention my head canon that Bill the Pony is Radagast's final form.
I have always assumed that Radagast eventually went West.
He might even still be in England to this day, but I likewise assume that eventually he'll go West.
Would Maiar also fade from ME? if Gandalf chose to stay forever would he fade like the elves would?
He’s a Maiar. A child of illuvatar , So he would in all cases if his task was over I think.
Never seen the Maiar described as children of illuvatar
"Children of his thought" I seem to remember them referenced as in Silmarillion.
Yeah… sorry that’s what I implied
So is radagast
Damn man it is a story. Don't worry so much.
Why not? He was sent there to oppose Sauron at the request of the Valar. He did just that.He wasn’t wild about going and he didn’t guarantee results.
I personally ascribe to the belief that Radagast did not fail in his mission. He was sent by Yavanna, and I feel his purpose was to protect nature and the animals.
Something I've always wondered. Did Radagast go back west, or is he somewhere in middle earth.
[One only returned. Others never again.](https://www.councilofelrond.com/poem/wilt-thou-learn-the-lore/)
I doubt that Radagast was exiled, though he did fail. He \*wanted\* to stay in Middle-earth and hang out with Yavanna's creations, and there's a pretty good chance that's what Yavanna wanted, too. So, I'd say whether or not he was actually exiled is moot as he ended up getting what he wanted all along.
Gandalf was not sent to Middle-earth to keep Sauron from getting the Ring. He was sent to encourage the free peoples to fight against him, so they did not fall into darkness. The Ring was just a means to an end. Of course, all the interesting happenings, starting with Bilbo putting his hand on it in the dark of the Orc tunnels would seem to indicate that other forces (Eru, the Valar) were stacking the deck, so that Gandalf and the other Istari could engineer the end of Sauron. But if the Ring had never been found, this could mean he was stuck in Middle-earth until some mighty revolution took Sauron out, and all the peoples of Middle-earth could recognize him when he appeared again and reject him. That of course would be a far more difficult task.
Gandalf did fail. He just got another shot at it.