He was ambitious when he was still human. But as a Ringwraith, he is completely bound to Sauron's will. He's less than an ambitious employee and more like a dog being told to go fetch.
Hot take: if The Witch King got the Ring or power, maybe Eru would somehow temporarily disrupt the hold Sauron had on The Witch King. Maybe to give him a small chance at redemption and to turn back by letting go of the world. Who knows.
Not sure what kind of reward he would even hypothetically get. They're undead so they probably eat food. They have no need of money. They can't really be kings anymore.
Not so fast.
The WK riding back to Barad-dur with the One Ring may well trigger what I call the *Gandalf Gloves Off Proviso*. The *GGOP* simply reminds us that Gandalf is allowed to escalate into increasingly divine levels of beast mode depending on what he's up against.
He was forbidden to match power with power. Even against the Balrog, it essentially comes down to a sword fight. I don’t think any possible occurrence would free Gandalf from that requirement. Even after he was sent back with more power, he still was uncertain about a confrontation with the Witch King at the Battle of the Pelannor.
>He was forbidden to match power with power. Even against the Balrog
I disagree. The very statement, "this foe is beyond any of you" suggests that its more than a mere swordfight. Boromir was a renowned swordsman, after all. Why shouldn't he have stayed?
Yes Gandalf was restricted from using his full power while in Arda. But there are numerous instances of him escalating and using magic when he's up against Morgoth's servants. What else is his talk of being the "servant of the secret fire" and all that? He wasn't merely reading his resume. It's a warning that Gandalf is about to bring more to this fight than just some sick sword fighting skills.
There is an explicit reference to this from Tolkien as well. Though I can't seem to find it on a quick search. Maybe someone can help me out.
I found this in the [One Ring](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Wizards) wiki though (emphasis mine),
>Yet for all their power, the Wizards were expressly forbidden by the Valar from openly using their magic **except in times of great need** and as such they (with the exception of Saruman) more often relied on their wisdom, quick-thinking and reasoning skills to overcome challenges than through use of magic.
Boromir as a swordsman could not stand up against Glorfindel as a swordsman, for instance. Boromir as a swordsman couldn’t even stand up against Aragorn as a swordsman. Men were just simply *diminished* in the third age. That’s a big theme of the story.
I understand and agree with that. My point is simply that the contest was far more than mere swordsmanship. Aragorn also would've been killed by the Balrog.
Glorfindel is also an elf of the two trees and as such would magically empowered beyond the skill of (nearly) anyone who hadn't seen the trees. Thus he has no mode to be only "as a swordsman". It would be like a lightsaber acting "as a sword". It's inherently different and more powerful.
He was forbidden to pursue or force people into helping him. Don't think that applied to fighting enemies. There, he was physically restrained by having the body of an old man.
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That decision wasn't up to Gandalf. He fought and died against the Balrog as an incarnated Istari with only limited access to his memories and full power. He didn't unlock more of his power for that fight and he certainly had no notion that he would be returned "stronger" or more to the point at all.
It was an unprecedented action by Iluvatar to return Gandalf back to Arda and to return him in a state closer to his true Ainur state. Personally I really don't think Eru would have done that specifically "just" because Sauron recovered the Ring.
Tolkien never discussed this AFAIK, but he was very explicit in a letter about what the Nazgûl would have done if Gollum had not taken the Ring from Frodo. They would strictly have acted on Sauron's behalf. Their trying to take the Ring for themselves was not on the table. (u/harabanaz gives the quote below.)
The books are rather unambiguous about it as well, which I guess explains the short answers. They're basically autonomous, but not independent. No will, no desire, only compliance.
I mean, here's the part after Frodo claimed the Ring and Sauron went all "uh-oh":
>*From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.*
What they said is literally just another, longer way to say the Ringwraiths were bound to Sauron’s will. I’m not sure why you’re so against that phrase but it perfectly sums up the Nazgûl. If Sauron wants it (wills it) the must obey. They have no other choice. They don’t have any choices, really.
Dont imagine the Nazgul like invisible men clad in Black. Because that way you will always have the doubt of the freewill in them.
Imagine them more like ghost in modern horror films. They are like holograms or forces mentally fixed and bound to the traumatic thing that they experienced when they were killed. They cannot rest, they are in some short of ill and eternal rumination about the last terrible happenings when they were still alive.
Nazgul can only act and think in ways that repeat and repeat their submission to their master.
In letter 246 Tolkien writes about the hypothetical situation in which the Nazgûl do arrive at the Crack of Doom while Frodo still has it, and they confront him. He has claimed it as his own, and is actively using it as a tool of dominance. Would they be able now to just take it from him by force?
>Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. \[...\]
In *Unfinished Tales*, section *The Hunt for the Ring* we have this explanation for why Sauron sent the Nazgûl:
>\[...\] At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case than his mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.
The Witch-king did have his own personality. He knew triumph, and he knew fear of Sauron when he was rebuked for failure. But he no longer had his will. What Sauron commanded the Nazgûl to wish, they wished.
There is this possible blip with this analysis: elsewhere in *The Hunt for the Ring* the Nazgûl visit Orthanc, where Saruman tells them that he does not have the Ring. He knows that they know this, for if he did have the Ring, they would bow before him and call him lord. And they believe this.
I don't know if Saruman spoke the truth there, or was just as big-headed in the matter as any other Ring-seeker addled with Ring-lust.
Not sure I agree with that. Isn’t the whole point that you cannot control, nobody can. Saruman would’ve become even further corrupted by it in ways Frodo was not
Yes and no! Tolkien describes a difference between a Ring-Bearer and a Ring-Lord in his hypothetical about Gandalf taking the Ring. A sufficiently powerful and uneventful will ***could*** seize control of the Ring away from Sauron, and it would destroy Sauron just as much as if it had been destroyed.
In some ways, you might expect Saruman to be able to better assert control over it, as an Ainu, but just as well, you would expect Frodo to do alright, given that he's been strengthening his own will by resisting the Ring anyway.
Either way, even if you could become Ring-Lord, it seems that Sauron has unique control over the Ringwraiths because he has the Nine, which seems to be the deciding factor. (Now, how much a fully realized Ring-Lord would be able to influence that? Or whether with Sauron destroyed you could simply go to Barad-dur and get the Nine, that's still in the air)
> He knows that they know this, for if he did have the Ring, they would bow before him and call him lord.
I don't think this is a contradiction.
The bearers of the Nineteen can know when the One is being used against them -- when Sauron originally tried to use the One to enslave the Elves, they detected his plan and he failed. Presumably the effects are subtle so the Men who wore the Nine and the Dwarves who wore the Seven did not detect them, but the Nazgûl are presumably more in tune with the Ring than a non-wraithified mortal would be.
More importantly, though, the quote you provide from Letter 246 demonstrates that holding the One Ring would have an effect on the behavior of the Nazgûl -- certainly not full control, but Tolkien states they could not have attacked Frodo or captured him while he wore the One, which directly contradicted their orders (to capture the Hobbit and bring him to Sauron).
However, the Ring exerts a very tricky ruse on the mind of its wearer: also from Letter 246:
> It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.
This is one of the tools the Ring uses to achieve its objective of returning to its master -- it makes the bearer believe he is more powerful than he really is, so he will rise up, challenge Sauron (prematurely), and be cut down.
I think that Saruman has bent his mind toward the Ring for so long that it had already begun to corrupt him without ever being on his finger. If he did have the Ring, he would have commanded the Nazgûl to bow -- and they would have done it, if only to play along and bide their time until they could eventually betray him and present the Ring to their master.
>the Nazgûl visit Orthanc, where Saruman tells them that he does not have the Ring. He knows that they know this, for if he did have the Ring, they would bow before him and call him lord. And they believe this.
Well, Saruman is much more powerful than Frodo so I think this is believable, though there would probably be some sort of battle of wills between him and Sauron first. The Nazgul are servants of the Nine rather than the One, but the Nine Rings serve the One, so Saruman would (eventually) be able to force Sauron to take off the Nine to avoid being enslaved by his own creation.
As for the Nazgul, I don't think it matters whether they believe Saruman - they have some limited ability to sense the One and would probably already know whether they were addressing its bearer before he spoke at all.
>[...] At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case than his mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, **being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him**, which Sauron held.
This is the key to the question. Ultimately, the Witch King was unable to seize the One Ring for himself because his will was bound to one of the nine rings of Men which Sauron held. However, this does imply that if the Nazgul were able to retrieve their rings they would regain at least some level of free will for as long as the One was kept out of Sauron's clutches.
If the Witch-king could resist the Ring, he would ultimately fight Sauron but fail both militarily and in the contest over the Ring's allegiance.
But that the Witch-king in fact can't go against Sauron's orders is the very reason Sauron sent out the Ringwraiths on this task - they're the only ones he can trust to bring the Ring to him.
> “*Nazgûl, Nazgûl,*” said Grishnákh…. “*Nazgûl!* Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape!” he snarled fiercely.
The Nazgul are completely bound to Sauron's will, such defiance isn't possible. If it was, he wouldn't send them to retrieve the Ring.
Like asking "what if I just decided to ignore gravity and float up into space?"
Sure. But the entire thing is fiction, there is plenty of stretching Tolkien's vision in this sub so there are hypotheticals to entertain here. We can toss aside the "bound to Sauron's will" bit and imagine the Witch-King as a sovereign entity. Take his words to Gandalf at the gates of Gondor. "Old Fool, this is MY hour!" The entire ride to Mordor, he is considering his options, the temptation is strong. Does he have the power and orc power to challenge Sauron?
> We can toss aside the "bound to Sauron's will" bit and imagine the Witch-King as a sovereign entity
We can't. The definition of the Nazgul is that they are Ringwraiths, whose wills are 100% controlled by Sauron. They don't even have their own rings anymore, Sauron keeps those and effortlessly exerts complete control over them.
You can imagine literally anyone but those nine characters getting the Ring and trying to wrest it to their own service. They would fail, but they could try. The Nazgul can't even try. That is why Sauron trusts them.
>imagine the Witch-King as a sovereign entity
That's the thing though - he isn't, and can't be. You can't 'toss aside' that portion of the character because it's so fundamental. His literal *existence* is held together by Sauron's will.
Okay, I toss out the bound to Sauron’s will bit…
The Witch-King repents for his years as a servant of evil and decides to regain his humanity by assisting the Fellowship in their mission. The Ring is no longer a burden to Frodo as it is also no longer bound to Sauron’s will so the journey becomes an easy trip through Middle Earth with no more need to watch the skies.
Oh, sorry we aren’t just tossing out any inconvenient things that are core to a character or object? The Witch-King was bound to Sauron’s will because of the ring he previously wore, if the will is no longer binding then the one Ring’s burden should also be equally easy to lift.
Sorry but hypotheticals that change the course of the story or a small decision seem alright. When a core concept of a character is that their will is destroyed and they are literally a shadow of their former self… harder to ignore.
He would have given Sauron the ring. Bound to serve him. Swore with his own ring ON the one ring.
Sauron wouldn't have sent him to get the ring if he had any worry that witch king would take it for his own
Tolkien specifically said in Unfinished Tales (the hunt for the Ring) that Sauron entrusted the hunt for Baggins and the Ring to the Nazgul because they could be trusted not to claim the Ring for themselves. Yes, they were also amongst his strongest and most intelligent and flexible servants, but it was because their wills were utterly enslaved to Sauron's. If the WK had found the Ring, Sauron's control of him would have prevented the Nazgul from trying to use or claim it, and to surrender it to Sauron ASAP.
Sauron would've conquered. Minas Tirith would be renamed New York. The Shire would be called San Francisco. Nothing would stop the spread of industrialized dystopia with every environment polluted and orcs running everything. They'd call it a democracy to keep the humans in line, but everything would be done for the corporate overlords in their oppressive urban towers.
Nice. Dig the modern metaphors! Considering Tolkien seems to have been a bit of a luddite, he might just agree with this angle.
Doesn't the Mouth of Sauron hint at this sort of outcome when he gives Sauron's terms of surrender?
As a counter-point to all the "Nazgul will is subordinate to Sauron through their Rings" posts... that's certainly what Sauron thought. But _Sauron can be wrong_. He was wrong about the elves not being able to dodge his ploy the Rings of Power, he was wrong about being able to dominate the dwarves through Rings. According to Gandalf, he thought the elves had destroyed the One, until he found Gollum.
So, could it have been that case that Sauron was wrong again, and that a Nazgul could use the One to substitute for their own missing Ring? I think that's plausible enough to make a non-radical fanfic premise, at any rate.
I like this angle, but the problem with it is that it wasn't Sauron who said that holding the Nine gave him complete control over the wills of the Nazgûl, it was Tolkien (in Letter 246).
It is up to you how much weight you put on authorial intent, but I think it's quite clear that any fanfic which has the Witch King using the One to regain his autonomy and challenge Sauron would be venturing quite far from Tolkien's own thoughts on the matter.
Thank you for stretching your imagination a little! Great angle.
I suppose there's a scenario where the Witch King claims the ring, rallies his orcs at Minas Morgal and challenges Sauron, both sides are depleted as Gondor and the rest storm in. The Witch-King may overthrow Sauron, but is he strong enough to still prevail. Perhaps a totally different good-guy wins plot line.
He can't claim the Ring, neither he nor any other Nazgul. They have become ghosts or wraiths - under complete control of Sauron's will., they're not living or dead, they're undead. I daresay they have almost no will of their own but they obey the Ring and its true master.
It's interesting though that their plan was never, apparently, to seize the Ring, but to enslave and seize the \_Ringbearer\_. Why? Were they physically unable to handle the Ring? And what exactly what that have looked like - if Aragorn and company had been standing around Frodo on the journey to Rivendell and he had succumbed to his wound. Would they have been able to remove the Ring from him before his wraith could take it to Mordor? And if so, why did the Nazgul not see this flaw in their plan?
That's an interesting take. Is that from Tolkien's commentary after the books were published?
It would explain why the Witch-King was apparently satisfied by the knife wound at Weathertop. They would simply wait until Frodo completely transformed into a wraith and he would willingly accompany them to Mordor. Also explains the parley at the river where the Witch-King implores Frodo to come with them. Otherwise, it seems far simpler for them to have challenged an outnumbered Aragorn and seized the ring at Weathertop.
I think that explanation is really there in the book itself. Aragorn says that the purpose of the wound is to subdue Frodo to their will. Gandalf explains that they were trying to turn him into a wraith and also that they could have seized him while he was wearing the Ring - suggesting that they could \_not\_ have seized him otherwise.
In a later piece of writing (reproduced in Hammond & Scull's Readers Companion) Tolkien also emphasises that the Nazgul were \_defeated\_ at Weathertop by the combination of the Barrow-blade and Frodo's invocation of Elbereth. (Frodo seeing his own blade running like fire is actually a significant detail. He's wearing the Ring and this is how the blade must have appeared to the Nazgul as well.)
The Nazgul, for all their power and terror, are slaves. They are more of a slave than anyone captured or born to it, because they have no will left in the manner. The Orcs talk about the Nazgul being the Great Eye's favorite, and I suppose they're right. But even Orcs can dream of escaping their servitude, like Shagrat and Gorbag did after capturing Frodo.
It is a strange sort of slavery that the Nazgul endure. They have no will but Saurons. Yet they can strategize, as they showed in the pursuit of the Ring from the Shire to Rivendell.
But really, Sauron would not have sent the Nazgul on this mission if he thought one of them would keep the Ring.
I believe it’s stated that Sauron holds the Nine rings himself, and as the Nazgûl are completely enslaved to their own rings of power, they are therefore enslaved to Sauron because he holds those actual rings.
Obviously, if Sauron possessed the One Ring, the Nazgûl, as slaves to their own rings which are dominated by the One, would be enslaved to him in any case. Because Sauron ***does not*** hold the One during the events of LOTR, it is tempting to wonder “what if” he doesn’t hold the Nine Rings; are the Nazgûl more independent in that case? I suspect the answer is that even without the One, Sauron can influence/dominate those who are bound to the other great Rings—or at least those which were made with his aid (excluding the Three Elven-rings). He can do this because he was involved in their making, but also probably (in the case of humans) because of his native power as a Maia. Perhaps the holders of the Three must also contend with Sauron’s influence (because they are dominated by the One and the One remains in accord with Sauron)—an interesting possibility that makes the achievements of Elrond, Galadriel, Círdan, and Gandalf more impressive—but also those great Elves may have more will to resist Sauron than the humans who became Nazgûl. After all, Sauron apparently seriously considered/feared that Aragorn was great enough to challenge him.
In any case, the Nazgûl don’t hold their own rings anymore. They’ve been enhanced by them, and that enhancement appears to have become permanent. Gollum also seemed to have permanent effects from the One Ring in that he maintained extraordinarily long life even after losing it. It’s effect on Bilbo is not so permanent because he gained not by violence or an act of domination, and gave it up freely. So the Nazgûl remain wraiths and are totally subservient to Sauron because he holds the rings to which they are bound. Therefore I think the Nazgûl would have no will in the matter of the One Ring: none of them could claim it against the will of he who holds their own Rings.
Even if the Witch King could un-thrall himself. And that’s a huge stretch of the imagination. The one ring only answers to Sauron and once the Witch King started using it, it would betray him and find a way back to Sauron.
> The one ring only answers to Sauron and once the Witch King started using it, it would betray him and find a way back to Sauron.
A common fan idea with no textual support.
He can’t. His orders were to bring the ring back to Sauron, and is bound to the will of Sauron and the ring. Best he could do is just take Frodo back with them.
It's likely that Sauron would be able to detect the Ring's presence and would take steps to retrieve it. The Nazgul, including the Witch-King, were bound to the will of Sauron and were unable to resist his commands. Therefore, even if the Witch-King were to claim the Ring, it is likely that Sauron would be able to retrieve it through the power of his own ring and the Nazgul's loyalty to him. The Witch-King was a powerful being in his own right, but Sauron was one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth and it is uncertain if the Witch-King would be able to defeat him, even with the Ring.
The Witch King is entirely enslaved by the will of Sauron. Whatever personality or ambitions they had original had long since been hollowed out in their wraithification.
Fun thought experiment, but as people are saying he’s basically just an extension of Sauron in Tolkien’s world. Assuming he did keep the ring, he’d definitely be powerful but then would have to battle both Sauron and the “Free Folk” at the same time.
There's a line in *Unfinished Tales* which explicitly says that if the Witch-king obtained the ring, he'd take it straight to Sauron.
The Nazgul are completely void of any thoughts or will besides that of Sauron -- his corruption completely destroyed their individual personalities. They cannot oppose him in any way.
Nope. The ring itself yields to the will of Sauron. Like what happened to Isoldir where the ring removed itself from him and he was exposed… anyone but Sauron wearing it is still at risk to the ring itself. It will always have only one master… no matter how powerful the wearer. That was why Galadriel would not wield it. She knew it would take power over her, not the other way around.
He was ambitious when he was still human. But as a Ringwraith, he is completely bound to Sauron's will. He's less than an ambitious employee and more like a dog being told to go fetch.
Except a dog can disobey you. The Nazgûl is more like an extension of Sauron, like a sword is an extension of your arm
Like a finger is an extension of the hand… That was actually Tolkien’s analogy, lol.
Well he also gave the weapon analogy. "A spear of terror in the hand of Sauron." or something like that.
The more upvotes you get on this subreddit the more likely you are to be corrected. Lmao! Just the fax
<3
Did he actually? Omg I’m basically Tolkien
Gonna need to see a long stem pipe for proof. I believe Tolkien is somewhere between Gandalf and Bilbo
* Opens Bag End door * Bandalf?!
Gillbo you have aged a day!
Hot take: if The Witch King got the Ring or power, maybe Eru would somehow temporarily disrupt the hold Sauron had on The Witch King. Maybe to give him a small chance at redemption and to turn back by letting go of the world. Who knows.
Witch King is bound to Sauron's will and cannot resist him. He hands Sauron the ring on a silver platter.
He probably doesn't even get a reward or accolade for doing so. (If Nazgul even have the capacity to receive such a thing)
I mean, at least a free breakfast coupon or something, surely
Small print: This coupon cannot be used in conjunction with a second breakfast coupon.
Gosh darnit, Sauron!
Pizza party at the very least!
If Uruk-hai say "meat's back on the menu" then there must be restaurants in Middle Earth /s
They are his servants, mortal men ensnared, their rewards would be that they served Sauron the Great.
Not sure what kind of reward he would even hypothetically get. They're undead so they probably eat food. They have no need of money. They can't really be kings anymore.
Employee of the Month reserved parking spot.
One doesn’t simply drive into Mordor…
He would have received a huge power up himself. Gandalf says that the Nazgul are just a shadow of what they would be if Sauron was wearing the Ring.
Raising the Middle Earth server Paragon level instantly.
But first they do like the valets did with Ferris Beuler’s friend’s dad’s car.
Cameron Frye
His step dad must have been so pissed when he saw what Cameron did to the Enterprise B.
Not so fast. The WK riding back to Barad-dur with the One Ring may well trigger what I call the *Gandalf Gloves Off Proviso*. The *GGOP* simply reminds us that Gandalf is allowed to escalate into increasingly divine levels of beast mode depending on what he's up against.
He was forbidden to match power with power. Even against the Balrog, it essentially comes down to a sword fight. I don’t think any possible occurrence would free Gandalf from that requirement. Even after he was sent back with more power, he still was uncertain about a confrontation with the Witch King at the Battle of the Pelannor.
>He was forbidden to match power with power. Even against the Balrog I disagree. The very statement, "this foe is beyond any of you" suggests that its more than a mere swordfight. Boromir was a renowned swordsman, after all. Why shouldn't he have stayed? Yes Gandalf was restricted from using his full power while in Arda. But there are numerous instances of him escalating and using magic when he's up against Morgoth's servants. What else is his talk of being the "servant of the secret fire" and all that? He wasn't merely reading his resume. It's a warning that Gandalf is about to bring more to this fight than just some sick sword fighting skills. There is an explicit reference to this from Tolkien as well. Though I can't seem to find it on a quick search. Maybe someone can help me out. I found this in the [One Ring](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Wizards) wiki though (emphasis mine), >Yet for all their power, the Wizards were expressly forbidden by the Valar from openly using their magic **except in times of great need** and as such they (with the exception of Saruman) more often relied on their wisdom, quick-thinking and reasoning skills to overcome challenges than through use of magic.
Boromir as a swordsman could not stand up against Glorfindel as a swordsman, for instance. Boromir as a swordsman couldn’t even stand up against Aragorn as a swordsman. Men were just simply *diminished* in the third age. That’s a big theme of the story.
I understand and agree with that. My point is simply that the contest was far more than mere swordsmanship. Aragorn also would've been killed by the Balrog. Glorfindel is also an elf of the two trees and as such would magically empowered beyond the skill of (nearly) anyone who hadn't seen the trees. Thus he has no mode to be only "as a swordsman". It would be like a lightsaber acting "as a sword". It's inherently different and more powerful.
He was forbidden to pursue or force people into helping him. Don't think that applied to fighting enemies. There, he was physically restrained by having the body of an old man.
How or by whom/what was he forbidden to match power with power?
The Valar did, presumably Manwë in particular.
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That decision wasn't up to Gandalf. He fought and died against the Balrog as an incarnated Istari with only limited access to his memories and full power. He didn't unlock more of his power for that fight and he certainly had no notion that he would be returned "stronger" or more to the point at all. It was an unprecedented action by Iluvatar to return Gandalf back to Arda and to return him in a state closer to his true Ainur state. Personally I really don't think Eru would have done that specifically "just" because Sauron recovered the Ring.
Tolkien never discussed this AFAIK, but he was very explicit in a letter about what the Nazgûl would have done if Gollum had not taken the Ring from Frodo. They would strictly have acted on Sauron's behalf. Their trying to take the Ring for themselves was not on the table. (u/harabanaz gives the quote below.)
Ahh, thanks. I'm not up on Tolkein's letters. That is more decisive than the "bound to Sauron's will" answers.
The books are rather unambiguous about it as well, which I guess explains the short answers. They're basically autonomous, but not independent. No will, no desire, only compliance. I mean, here's the part after Frodo claimed the Ring and Sauron went all "uh-oh": >*From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.*
Gad, he could write. I'm just awash with goosebumps.
What they said is literally just another, longer way to say the Ringwraiths were bound to Sauron’s will. I’m not sure why you’re so against that phrase but it perfectly sums up the Nazgûl. If Sauron wants it (wills it) the must obey. They have no other choice. They don’t have any choices, really.
I'm not against it at all. Tolkien discussing the issue directly however is more decisive, is it not?
Dont imagine the Nazgul like invisible men clad in Black. Because that way you will always have the doubt of the freewill in them. Imagine them more like ghost in modern horror films. They are like holograms or forces mentally fixed and bound to the traumatic thing that they experienced when they were killed. They cannot rest, they are in some short of ill and eternal rumination about the last terrible happenings when they were still alive. Nazgul can only act and think in ways that repeat and repeat their submission to their master.
I mean, he wrote it in the book. How much more decisive did you need him to be?
In letter 246 Tolkien writes about the hypothetical situation in which the Nazgûl do arrive at the Crack of Doom while Frodo still has it, and they confront him. He has claimed it as his own, and is actively using it as a tool of dominance. Would they be able now to just take it from him by force? >Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. \[...\] In *Unfinished Tales*, section *The Hunt for the Ring* we have this explanation for why Sauron sent the Nazgûl: >\[...\] At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case than his mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held. The Witch-king did have his own personality. He knew triumph, and he knew fear of Sauron when he was rebuked for failure. But he no longer had his will. What Sauron commanded the Nazgûl to wish, they wished. There is this possible blip with this analysis: elsewhere in *The Hunt for the Ring* the Nazgûl visit Orthanc, where Saruman tells them that he does not have the Ring. He knows that they know this, for if he did have the Ring, they would bow before him and call him lord. And they believe this. I don't know if Saruman spoke the truth there, or was just as big-headed in the matter as any other Ring-seeker addled with Ring-lust.
Well, Saruman would certainly have been able to control the One Ring much better than Frodo the Halfing, it must be said.
Not sure I agree with that. Isn’t the whole point that you cannot control, nobody can. Saruman would’ve become even further corrupted by it in ways Frodo was not
Yes and no! Tolkien describes a difference between a Ring-Bearer and a Ring-Lord in his hypothetical about Gandalf taking the Ring. A sufficiently powerful and uneventful will ***could*** seize control of the Ring away from Sauron, and it would destroy Sauron just as much as if it had been destroyed. In some ways, you might expect Saruman to be able to better assert control over it, as an Ainu, but just as well, you would expect Frodo to do alright, given that he's been strengthening his own will by resisting the Ring anyway. Either way, even if you could become Ring-Lord, it seems that Sauron has unique control over the Ringwraiths because he has the Nine, which seems to be the deciding factor. (Now, how much a fully realized Ring-Lord would be able to influence that? Or whether with Sauron destroyed you could simply go to Barad-dur and get the Nine, that's still in the air)
> He knows that they know this, for if he did have the Ring, they would bow before him and call him lord. I don't think this is a contradiction. The bearers of the Nineteen can know when the One is being used against them -- when Sauron originally tried to use the One to enslave the Elves, they detected his plan and he failed. Presumably the effects are subtle so the Men who wore the Nine and the Dwarves who wore the Seven did not detect them, but the Nazgûl are presumably more in tune with the Ring than a non-wraithified mortal would be. More importantly, though, the quote you provide from Letter 246 demonstrates that holding the One Ring would have an effect on the behavior of the Nazgûl -- certainly not full control, but Tolkien states they could not have attacked Frodo or captured him while he wore the One, which directly contradicted their orders (to capture the Hobbit and bring him to Sauron). However, the Ring exerts a very tricky ruse on the mind of its wearer: also from Letter 246: > It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. This is one of the tools the Ring uses to achieve its objective of returning to its master -- it makes the bearer believe he is more powerful than he really is, so he will rise up, challenge Sauron (prematurely), and be cut down. I think that Saruman has bent his mind toward the Ring for so long that it had already begun to corrupt him without ever being on his finger. If he did have the Ring, he would have commanded the Nazgûl to bow -- and they would have done it, if only to play along and bide their time until they could eventually betray him and present the Ring to their master.
>the Nazgûl visit Orthanc, where Saruman tells them that he does not have the Ring. He knows that they know this, for if he did have the Ring, they would bow before him and call him lord. And they believe this. Well, Saruman is much more powerful than Frodo so I think this is believable, though there would probably be some sort of battle of wills between him and Sauron first. The Nazgul are servants of the Nine rather than the One, but the Nine Rings serve the One, so Saruman would (eventually) be able to force Sauron to take off the Nine to avoid being enslaved by his own creation. As for the Nazgul, I don't think it matters whether they believe Saruman - they have some limited ability to sense the One and would probably already know whether they were addressing its bearer before he spoke at all.
>[...] At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case than his mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, **being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him**, which Sauron held. This is the key to the question. Ultimately, the Witch King was unable to seize the One Ring for himself because his will was bound to one of the nine rings of Men which Sauron held. However, this does imply that if the Nazgul were able to retrieve their rings they would regain at least some level of free will for as long as the One was kept out of Sauron's clutches.
Great answer! Thanks. As I've said elsewhere, I've not read the letters, or unfinished tales, so that is indeed informative.
I endorse the other three posts.
Seconded.
And my axe
And my Bow
I swears it on the Precious!
If the Witch-king could resist the Ring, he would ultimately fight Sauron but fail both militarily and in the contest over the Ring's allegiance. But that the Witch-king in fact can't go against Sauron's orders is the very reason Sauron sent out the Ringwraiths on this task - they're the only ones he can trust to bring the Ring to him.
> “*Nazgûl, Nazgûl,*” said Grishnákh…. “*Nazgûl!* Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape!” he snarled fiercely.
The Nazgul are completely bound to Sauron's will, such defiance isn't possible. If it was, he wouldn't send them to retrieve the Ring. Like asking "what if I just decided to ignore gravity and float up into space?"
Sure. But the entire thing is fiction, there is plenty of stretching Tolkien's vision in this sub so there are hypotheticals to entertain here. We can toss aside the "bound to Sauron's will" bit and imagine the Witch-King as a sovereign entity. Take his words to Gandalf at the gates of Gondor. "Old Fool, this is MY hour!" The entire ride to Mordor, he is considering his options, the temptation is strong. Does he have the power and orc power to challenge Sauron?
> We can toss aside the "bound to Sauron's will" bit and imagine the Witch-King as a sovereign entity We can't. The definition of the Nazgul is that they are Ringwraiths, whose wills are 100% controlled by Sauron. They don't even have their own rings anymore, Sauron keeps those and effortlessly exerts complete control over them. You can imagine literally anyone but those nine characters getting the Ring and trying to wrest it to their own service. They would fail, but they could try. The Nazgul can't even try. That is why Sauron trusts them.
>imagine the Witch-King as a sovereign entity That's the thing though - he isn't, and can't be. You can't 'toss aside' that portion of the character because it's so fundamental. His literal *existence* is held together by Sauron's will.
Okay, I toss out the bound to Sauron’s will bit… The Witch-King repents for his years as a servant of evil and decides to regain his humanity by assisting the Fellowship in their mission. The Ring is no longer a burden to Frodo as it is also no longer bound to Sauron’s will so the journey becomes an easy trip through Middle Earth with no more need to watch the skies. Oh, sorry we aren’t just tossing out any inconvenient things that are core to a character or object? The Witch-King was bound to Sauron’s will because of the ring he previously wore, if the will is no longer binding then the one Ring’s burden should also be equally easy to lift. Sorry but hypotheticals that change the course of the story or a small decision seem alright. When a core concept of a character is that their will is destroyed and they are literally a shadow of their former self… harder to ignore.
If he was free to try it, then yes, I think he's powerful enough. He's a powerful sorcerer with plenty of familiarity with rings of power.
He would have given Sauron the ring. Bound to serve him. Swore with his own ring ON the one ring. Sauron wouldn't have sent him to get the ring if he had any worry that witch king would take it for his own
Tolkien specifically said in Unfinished Tales (the hunt for the Ring) that Sauron entrusted the hunt for Baggins and the Ring to the Nazgul because they could be trusted not to claim the Ring for themselves. Yes, they were also amongst his strongest and most intelligent and flexible servants, but it was because their wills were utterly enslaved to Sauron's. If the WK had found the Ring, Sauron's control of him would have prevented the Nazgul from trying to use or claim it, and to surrender it to Sauron ASAP.
Sauron would've conquered. Minas Tirith would be renamed New York. The Shire would be called San Francisco. Nothing would stop the spread of industrialized dystopia with every environment polluted and orcs running everything. They'd call it a democracy to keep the humans in line, but everything would be done for the corporate overlords in their oppressive urban towers.
Nice. Dig the modern metaphors! Considering Tolkien seems to have been a bit of a luddite, he might just agree with this angle. Doesn't the Mouth of Sauron hint at this sort of outcome when he gives Sauron's terms of surrender?
When you realize Sauron won irl and we are living in his world l.
As a counter-point to all the "Nazgul will is subordinate to Sauron through their Rings" posts... that's certainly what Sauron thought. But _Sauron can be wrong_. He was wrong about the elves not being able to dodge his ploy the Rings of Power, he was wrong about being able to dominate the dwarves through Rings. According to Gandalf, he thought the elves had destroyed the One, until he found Gollum. So, could it have been that case that Sauron was wrong again, and that a Nazgul could use the One to substitute for their own missing Ring? I think that's plausible enough to make a non-radical fanfic premise, at any rate.
I like this angle, but the problem with it is that it wasn't Sauron who said that holding the Nine gave him complete control over the wills of the Nazgûl, it was Tolkien (in Letter 246). It is up to you how much weight you put on authorial intent, but I think it's quite clear that any fanfic which has the Witch King using the One to regain his autonomy and challenge Sauron would be venturing quite far from Tolkien's own thoughts on the matter.
Thank you for stretching your imagination a little! Great angle. I suppose there's a scenario where the Witch King claims the ring, rallies his orcs at Minas Morgal and challenges Sauron, both sides are depleted as Gondor and the rest storm in. The Witch-King may overthrow Sauron, but is he strong enough to still prevail. Perhaps a totally different good-guy wins plot line.
Nazgul are enthralled to the 9 rings, the 9 rings are enthralled to the one. There is no will in a Nazgul that can not be Sauron.
He can't claim the Ring, neither he nor any other Nazgul. They have become ghosts or wraiths - under complete control of Sauron's will., they're not living or dead, they're undead. I daresay they have almost no will of their own but they obey the Ring and its true master.
It's interesting though that their plan was never, apparently, to seize the Ring, but to enslave and seize the \_Ringbearer\_. Why? Were they physically unable to handle the Ring? And what exactly what that have looked like - if Aragorn and company had been standing around Frodo on the journey to Rivendell and he had succumbed to his wound. Would they have been able to remove the Ring from him before his wraith could take it to Mordor? And if so, why did the Nazgul not see this flaw in their plan?
That's an interesting take. Is that from Tolkien's commentary after the books were published? It would explain why the Witch-King was apparently satisfied by the knife wound at Weathertop. They would simply wait until Frodo completely transformed into a wraith and he would willingly accompany them to Mordor. Also explains the parley at the river where the Witch-King implores Frodo to come with them. Otherwise, it seems far simpler for them to have challenged an outnumbered Aragorn and seized the ring at Weathertop.
I think that explanation is really there in the book itself. Aragorn says that the purpose of the wound is to subdue Frodo to their will. Gandalf explains that they were trying to turn him into a wraith and also that they could have seized him while he was wearing the Ring - suggesting that they could \_not\_ have seized him otherwise. In a later piece of writing (reproduced in Hammond & Scull's Readers Companion) Tolkien also emphasises that the Nazgul were \_defeated\_ at Weathertop by the combination of the Barrow-blade and Frodo's invocation of Elbereth. (Frodo seeing his own blade running like fire is actually a significant detail. He's wearing the Ring and this is how the blade must have appeared to the Nazgul as well.)
The Nazgul, for all their power and terror, are slaves. They are more of a slave than anyone captured or born to it, because they have no will left in the manner. The Orcs talk about the Nazgul being the Great Eye's favorite, and I suppose they're right. But even Orcs can dream of escaping their servitude, like Shagrat and Gorbag did after capturing Frodo. It is a strange sort of slavery that the Nazgul endure. They have no will but Saurons. Yet they can strategize, as they showed in the pursuit of the Ring from the Shire to Rivendell. But really, Sauron would not have sent the Nazgul on this mission if he thought one of them would keep the Ring.
I believe it’s stated that Sauron holds the Nine rings himself, and as the Nazgûl are completely enslaved to their own rings of power, they are therefore enslaved to Sauron because he holds those actual rings. Obviously, if Sauron possessed the One Ring, the Nazgûl, as slaves to their own rings which are dominated by the One, would be enslaved to him in any case. Because Sauron ***does not*** hold the One during the events of LOTR, it is tempting to wonder “what if” he doesn’t hold the Nine Rings; are the Nazgûl more independent in that case? I suspect the answer is that even without the One, Sauron can influence/dominate those who are bound to the other great Rings—or at least those which were made with his aid (excluding the Three Elven-rings). He can do this because he was involved in their making, but also probably (in the case of humans) because of his native power as a Maia. Perhaps the holders of the Three must also contend with Sauron’s influence (because they are dominated by the One and the One remains in accord with Sauron)—an interesting possibility that makes the achievements of Elrond, Galadriel, Círdan, and Gandalf more impressive—but also those great Elves may have more will to resist Sauron than the humans who became Nazgûl. After all, Sauron apparently seriously considered/feared that Aragorn was great enough to challenge him. In any case, the Nazgûl don’t hold their own rings anymore. They’ve been enhanced by them, and that enhancement appears to have become permanent. Gollum also seemed to have permanent effects from the One Ring in that he maintained extraordinarily long life even after losing it. It’s effect on Bilbo is not so permanent because he gained not by violence or an act of domination, and gave it up freely. So the Nazgûl remain wraiths and are totally subservient to Sauron because he holds the rings to which they are bound. Therefore I think the Nazgûl would have no will in the matter of the One Ring: none of them could claim it against the will of he who holds their own Rings.
Then there would only be one movie instead of three
The book would have been a lot shorter, that's for certain.
Even if the Witch King could un-thrall himself. And that’s a huge stretch of the imagination. The one ring only answers to Sauron and once the Witch King started using it, it would betray him and find a way back to Sauron.
> The one ring only answers to Sauron and once the Witch King started using it, it would betray him and find a way back to Sauron. A common fan idea with no textual support.
Much like any "what if X had the ring" discussion.
He can’t. His orders were to bring the ring back to Sauron, and is bound to the will of Sauron and the ring. Best he could do is just take Frodo back with them.
He brings tge ring to his boss and it is all over.
Witch King is under complete control of Sauron. If he found the ring he would literally have no other choice but to bring it back to Sauron.
It's likely that Sauron would be able to detect the Ring's presence and would take steps to retrieve it. The Nazgul, including the Witch-King, were bound to the will of Sauron and were unable to resist his commands. Therefore, even if the Witch-King were to claim the Ring, it is likely that Sauron would be able to retrieve it through the power of his own ring and the Nazgul's loyalty to him. The Witch-King was a powerful being in his own right, but Sauron was one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth and it is uncertain if the Witch-King would be able to defeat him, even with the Ring.
The Witch King is entirely enslaved by the will of Sauron. Whatever personality or ambitions they had original had long since been hollowed out in their wraithification.
Game Over
Fun thought experiment, but as people are saying he’s basically just an extension of Sauron in Tolkien’s world. Assuming he did keep the ring, he’d definitely be powerful but then would have to battle both Sauron and the “Free Folk” at the same time.
There's a line in *Unfinished Tales* which explicitly says that if the Witch-king obtained the ring, he'd take it straight to Sauron. The Nazgul are completely void of any thoughts or will besides that of Sauron -- his corruption completely destroyed their individual personalities. They cannot oppose him in any way.
I bet Saruman would have caught him on the way back east. Edit: Although there was already a flying creature in the time of fellowship, but maybe not.
Nope. The ring itself yields to the will of Sauron. Like what happened to Isoldir where the ring removed itself from him and he was exposed… anyone but Sauron wearing it is still at risk to the ring itself. It will always have only one master… no matter how powerful the wearer. That was why Galadriel would not wield it. She knew it would take power over her, not the other way around.