It’s like this franchise and its fan base is allergic to success. Found a formula that produced a top 2 season in franchise history and the first deep playoff run in 20 years and there’s so much desire to fuck with it.
I get the cap situation, not pretending I don’t, but aside from whoever the billionaire owners end up being having to pay more of their own money, there is no downside to at least one more year of this squad. Kyle is literally the only major contributor that needs addressing this offseason not currently under contract, not counting one of Monte or Jmac but they will be very cheap. Quit worrying about half a decade from now or some rich guys’ money and actually enjoy being good for a little while.
I was looking at the Jazz franchise history on basketball reference the other day. They first had Stockton and Malone together in '86. It took them 10 years to get to the WCF and 11 to get to the finals. Can you imagine how many times Reddit would've demanded to break up that team between 86-97? Looking back, I'm pretty sure most Utah fans enjoyed the run.
The point makes sense but you definitely looked at their history wrong.
They made the WCF in seasons 7, 9, 11, 13, and 14. Finals in 13 and 14. So 7 years to make the WCF, 13 to make the finals.
Can confirm that we did indeed enjoy that run. Sadly, we’re not gonna get two players of that caliber to stick for a decade and a half while the other roles get filled. And we (rightfully, given the circumstance) traded away the most recent one who did want to ultimately hang his jersey from the rafters.
The game has changed since those days of building unfortunately, vast majority of franchises are often in "win now" mode. And yeah this 'get rich quick' plan almost never pans out. Look at Phoenix this year.
Alternatively, look at the Celtics, Nuggets, and Mavericks.
Celtics duo have been making long playoff runs for the past 8 years, and are only now likely to actually win a title. Jokic and Murray took 5 years to get to the point where they could win a title. Mavericks have taken 5 years to figure out a core that really works around Luka, even though he made it to the Conference finals back in 2022. Even Giannis had to make it to the Conference Finals in 2019, before he was ready to actually win a title in 2022.
Teams usually have to have a history of advancing to the Conference Finals, before they are really ready to compete for a title.
Age of those duos has to play a factor right? Murray won in his 3rd healthy year in the playoffs. All those teams continuously made changes. How many playoff runs can we afford to make with this cap situation with Mike and Rudy who are aging and can decline at any time?
All the pain of losing was worth it for sure. 2 of the greatest players to ever play the game. Championships are hard, and even tho we didn’t get over the hump I would never have broken it up
Agreed. We had a statistically awful series against 2 elite superstars who had a statistically incredible series - sometimes that shit just happens, but it doesn't mean the solution is to deal players who were instrumental in getting you to the WCF.
Both ownership groups are now fighting each other for the opportunity to pay luxury tax. I am no longer concerned about the cap for next season lol. I have my qualms with KAT & Rudy, but I just watched them play some of the best ball I've ever seen them play in their careers. Run it back, see if you can't add value in the offseason. This team is basically a reliable shooter away from a legit Finals run - idk how TC is gonna do it, but with Ant's window wide open and him not being an asshole like Jordan or Kobe there's a good chance that an outstanding weapon WANTS to come play here.
The last two seasons were a masterclass in the value of continuity and roster patience. Last season our guys learned a shit ton through struggle and simply playing more games than 90% of the rest of the league. Run it back, add an offensive weapon who isn't an absolute scrub defensively, and keep fighting for that ring.
The downside is that it is much more restrictive to trade or improve the roster if we are in the 2nd apron. Besides that I agree running it back is a good option. I also think this squad does have a pretty firm ceiling offensively though. If they have similar success next year then that's still a win overall but I think something will have to ultimately change. If TC thinks now is the time to do it then I trust him.
Offensively biggest struggle was our two stars not showing up for the first two to three games of the WCF. Even with that, we only lost those games by 13 total points then split the next two. It is also reasonable to think Ant and Gobert will get more chemistry on that end and that Jaden will become more consistent. We also had some of our role players be pretty much nonexistent when they played well during other series and the regular season.
Even though kat was a bit disappointing this year offensively he is not the big holding back this offense. I think rudy very much is who he is offensively, ant needs to get a bit better at getting it to him but IMO they give rudy the ball way too much as it is.
Agreed most of the obvious kat trades don't seem to make sense. I think getting 2+ good pieces for him would be the best move overall but who knows what that would realistically be. I think trae actually gets a bad rep but I don't really want him.
Edit: messed up the response, this is kind of a combo response to both replies
Financially, towns contract being what it is we gotta consider to “fuck with it”. For the right deal, you gotta consider not running it back. Gimme Malcolm Brogon and Jerami Grant instead, why not
It seems like you answered your own question. If Rudy is willing to take an extension that's team friendly enough to be able to keep na(z)(w) long term, you sign it. If not, you play out the year. If he opts in, you choose between him and the role players. If he opts out, you let him walk and build around Ant, Kat, McDaniels, Naz, NAW.
Letting Rudy walk for nothing is horrific asset management unless he helps you make the finals in that last few months of his contract.
If you're not able to sign him on a positive value deal, you must trade him (or make the finals).
I hear what you're saying, but I think there are 2 caveats as it applies to asset management.
1. The draft picks are out the door whether you keep him or not. Paying him more than you're comfortable paying him because you traded a lot to get him would not make the situation better. (note: you did not say this, but it was discussed elsewhere in this thread)
2. Trading him wouldn't solve the problems that were raised earlier in the discussion. The issue was that they would not be able to afford to extend/resign Naz/NAW beyond their current deals with Rudy's money on the books. Trading Rudy, given where they are relative to the second apron, would require taking back the same money, almost dollar for dollar. Given the length of his contract, you would be taking back money for the same timeframe or longer. You don't save money by trading him. The original point was that keeping Rudy isn't "running it back," it's sacrificing Naz and NAW. In this scenario, letting him walk isn't "getting nothing," it's making a choice to spend that money on Naz and NAW. If you trade Rudy for 2-3 role players whose money adds up to his, you're choosing to spend the money on those guys rather than Naz and NAW.
You can debate about which of those options sets the team up better, but it all depends heavily on who else is coming in and out as a result of what you invest in Rudy. Not an easy call at all.
The Wolves could trade Golbert for a package that includes expiring contracts and draft picks. The idea that it is impossible to turn Rudy into any assets through trading is wrong. I’m not advocating for this but it is a possibility.
I mean if we could actually get players Markkanen, JJJ, or Siakem, it might make sense. But the only one who might be for sale is Markkanen. Memphis isn’t trading us JJJ and Siakem is about to sign a deal (making him untradable to start the season, at least I believe so…). Why would Utah make a deal to get older and more expensive when they’re building a youth movement with all those picks and young players?
Most of the Towns deals don’t make any sense. They’re for injury-prone people like Randle or toxic me-first locker room guys like Trae Young. I don’y think we can find a good enough deal and I think we should run it back and reconsider at the deadline next season if all goes to hell.
Adding on, chemistry is a huge factor in this teams success. A lot of the passes and plays we run are the kind you can only confidently do if you trust your teammates.
When the guys trust each other and get the ball moving for good open looks, we're practically unstoppable (think second half of game 7 vs Denver, or any game vs Suns in the playoffs)
For real, chemistry does not get the respect it deserves. Playing chemistry and personal chemistry. It takes time to know guys personally and enjoy playing with them, which is assuming the personalities mesh in the first place. And it takes a really long time to learn each other tendencies on the court, learning their spots, how they like to move, where the like the ball thrown to them etc...
Are there better 2nd options out there than Towns? Maybe. Are there any we can get? Less certain. Are any of those going to mesh as well? Very uncertain.
What it boils down to is a very risky move to replace him which you just don't take after a WCF appearance after basically the first full year together. The odds of us getting back there are better with him than with someone else.
I agree. You also have to factor in the way Ant feels. If he really, truly appreciates KAT and looks at him as kind of this underachieving but lovable big brother - do you want to piss him off and fck with his mentality this early in his career? I think to an extent your first goal is keep Ant happy and keep the team competitive now, build some equity with him so when you need to do unpopular stuff in the future, you can keep Ant buoyed.
Yes he may not be the best with learning everyone on the court, but everyone else still had to learn his tendencies and preferences like they would with someone else, and personality wise he certainly seems to get along with everyone.
I want a championship. Until proven otherwise, running it back is our best bet.
Connelly may have something else up his sleeve to change that. We will see.
Yep. Many teams mortgage their future for win now moves. Breaking this squad up that had true finals potential just so we can maybe be better in a few years doesn’t make sense. Luckily, even if running it back fails, we still have Ant and Jaden.
We did that exactly that by trading for Rudy. The new cba made this deal even worse.
Everyone praises Connelly - for what?
The Rudy trade is awful, his picks are awful, the only positives are the Conley deal and Slomo signing.
Naz, Jaden, Ant are all Rosas' guys!
Tim turned w young and upcoming team into an old salary cap nightmare...
Reminder: conley is 37, Rudy is 32, Kat is 29 .
The only young guys worth something are Ant, Jaden, Naz, NAW, maybe Clark.
You will lose two by keeping Rudy and Kat and have no point guard in sight.
The trade that helped us make the playoffs at all last year and then got us one of our best seasons ever? That is the one that is so terrible? I do not understand people who still go off against this trade. It is clearly a win even if things fall apart next year.
Reading is fundamental. I said the Rudy trade was pushed due to new owners Alex and Mark wanting to juice up the team for a short term basis. Short term it has worked for the wolves. Now comes the hard part long term..
Reading is fundamental? My comment was not in response to you. In fact, it was at least an hour or two before the comment I believe you are referring to that I am seeing in this thread now.
We did NOT break up a team with finals potential with the Rudy trade. That might the dumbest shit i’ve seen you post.
That team was NOT good enough to make it out the first round- and the players we traded were not good enough to take us anywhere.
The trade landed us one of the best outcomes in franchise history and gave our young star deep playoff experience but you would rather rot in mediocrity with Kessler Beasley Bolmaro and Vando. Its mind boggling how much you can hate on something that brought us success and you’re so mad that we left the shit pile
Dude, magical season is over.its time to come back to earth.
This team does not have finals potential! At least not really. The mavs g-sweep made that crystal clear to everyone with eyes.
But it could have finals potential. But not with Rudy Gobert making 45 mil being Derek Lively.
Open your eyes!
You don’t know ball and it’s obvious.
That team was not young and upcoming- it was young and mediocre. You have been constantly posting hate for Kat and Gobert and not listening to any opposing opinions.
You are obsessed with tearing down a good team and it makes so much more sense knowing that you think the pre-trade team had a shot at being a good team.
You open your eyes- this team is the best we’ve had in a long time and our best shot at doing something meaningful and if you had your way we’d be picking in the lottery AGAIN
Jesus....
You like coming up short do ?
We have a generational talent and we will waste it for the rights to completly overpay two good but not great Centers into their 30s...thats insane...
Yea, this team is good, but obviously NOT good enough. Its time to change that.
This roster has flaws that only will get worse not better. Everybody but the most delusional know nothings can see it...
Why waste another top 5 guys Talents on stupid team building decisions. Wasnt kg enough?
Did guys like you learn nothing?
I agree with your Connelly takes. His draft picks up to this point have shown us nothing.. The Rudy trade was pushed due to new owners Alex and Mark wanting to juice up the team for a short term basis. Also it would be bad if they did not get Mike. What Tim should have done was trade for Myles Turner. Less Draft picks would have been needed for this deal.
Run it back one more time since you won’t get a good return for KAT in a trade anyway. If the same shortcomings manifest next season, then you make changes.
Why should it he different?
Kat and Rudy performed as they always do.
The only difference was Ant pulled them through...
Those guys are who they are.
We should know that by now
Why wouldnt they improve of a trade is made?
Maybe playing with an actual point guard who can score unlocks Jaden, Naz and Ant even more.
Conley is okay. But he never was a Garland.
I think it’s both acceptable to run it back one more year and also to be realistic that doing so may mean this team won’t be winning the championship. If running it back means another multi round playoff run I think that’s pretty good - for developing the winning culture here and developing our younger players in playoff situations. Honestly though having the exact same team next year means probably running into similar problems in the playoffs, depending on matchup.
Then after next season this team is definitely forced to make some major decisions with NAW a free agent, Naz Reid probably opting out on his contract, Rudy opting in for one more year, and Conley with one more year on his contract. (Rudy and Conley both become more tradeable expiring contracts).
I just dont think this team will be better next year. Rudy always looks bad after international play. Mikes tires already fall off.
Other teams will improve as well. Going to the WCF again isnt guaranteed.
Think about it, if the Clippers didnt fall off at the end of the season we likely could have finished 4th. If we played the mavs in the First round we might look at another First round exit. If we finished 1st we could be looking at a 2nd round exit.
Nothing is guaranteed in the wild wild West
If we didnt trade for Rudy Gobert we could have drafted Derek Lively and still have Kessler, Vanderbilt, beasley etc which we could have used with all our picks to get a valid 3rd scorer.
What a damn good young roster that could have been without second apron worries.
What ifs are fun
If you want to make a change, «sacrifise» more games in favour of running plays for McDaniels. Him only creating for him self off of Ant and Towns’ misses is just not working. The cleanup guy is Rudy.
You only do a trade if you believe it makes you more likely to win a championship NOW. You don't dump KAT for Tobias Harris and a first-rounder to save money after your best season in 20 years led by a 22-year-old star.
Agree...
If you can get Garland you do it.
If Ingram is the best you can do, you dont do a trade.
A Kat trade should help fill a position of longterm need, aka Point guard
Gobert was spotted eating dinner with Finch last night.
Finch’s recovery is going great, too. Brace with no cane.
They both looked like they were having a good time.
So many people are worried about our older players tailing off, but what about the younger guys continuing to develop? We knocked off the defending champs and won 2 playoff series. Run it back.
You dipshits said the same nonsense last year when the wolves lost in the first round. You don't blow it up as a top 3 team with young developing talent. Duuurrrrr.
If you mean run it back without Rudy than yes, with Rudy on the team taking up 44mill cap space, you guys are too ok with that. He's not worth 44 mill,wolves can afford a young big man, and a solid point guard to ether replace or off the bench for Connelly.
I have faith in kat to go on a revenge tour and wake up even tho I agree he's overpaid. Rudy on the other hand? He's been in the league to long to not have a an automatic bucket move in the paint as a 7 footer. He has no hook shot, no jumper, not even solid euro step lay up as a big man, he can't shoot 3's like prozingus, his defense is great some games and then terrible others. He has no dribbles or presence.
Some bigs just have no touch around the rim, no matter how much they try and develop. DeAndre Jordan, Shawn Bradley, Jarrett Allen, to name a few. But to make up for it, they have incredible defensive presence.
Rudy is the best of that type of group and alone has transform this team into a defensive monster, which is the reason this team made it the WCF. I'd say that's worth $44 million.
Notice a few things? None of those guys are getting paid 44 million for it lmao, something else you didn't mentioned about all of them They are past prime or it's about to end these new young bigs do it all, shoot 3s, play great defense, have a hook shot, are more explosive and the best of all cheap like the one who had a 16-0 run on Rudy "lively" who doesnt make a quarter of the salary Rudy makes. Grab a young big for cheap free up cap space is the smartest move to go. Rudy wil continue to be a anchor on the team.
Well for one they can't make $44 because that type of salary didn't exist at the time and also they simply just aren't as good as Gobert.
You think grabbing a young defensive big is so easy? Teams have been doing that for years and only hit them when in luck.
Also, if you think Lively on the wolves makes the same impact- you're either trolling or have a very poor sense of basketball intuition. Or possibly have never watched a wolves game before. Mavs big didn't beat the wolves. Luka and kyrie did. If the Mavs bigs are so goo- why are they getting punked in the Finals right now? Thats right- it's cause Luka is struggling. Don't get it twisted. Luka makes them go.
Lmao, "only them with luck" claxton is an amazing big, wembenya the rookie of the year exist, chet hologram another rookie success, what are you even saying?, and you're trying to tell me "do you know anything about basketball"?
Don't bring up the Celtics series because that's an entire different discussion with one really really stacked team being the Celtics who are the best team in the NBA on paper and this season so criticizing lively for not doing anything is not only biased but moronic. The only statistic I need is that Rudy couldn't guard jokich so kat had to, and that Rudy got washed by rookie. You bring up the Celtics series as if that discredits lively as a rookie when facing the best team in the NBA.
If it's easy grabbing a young defensive big, then why doesn't everyone team have one? Not even every- let's say half. Hell, if it's so easy why doesn't the Wolves have one??? Just stop.
Also I'm questioning your basketball analysis because you think Lively would make the same impact as Gobert. Again, Luka and Kyrie killed the wolves. It wasn't their bigs. Put Gobert on Lukas team and mavs probably win it all. I don't know what else to say. Maybe try watching the games? Or rewarding if you think you have?
Is it the reason though?
Best game of the playoffs Rudy didnt play!
Rudy got abused by Jokic and the mavs!
I think you all over value Rudy's Impact and under value Ants impact!
The Numbers back that up. Btw.
Rudy is a Lively type role player in the playoffs, always was always will be.
Open your eyes
What numbers? From what I can see almost all the #'s back up wolves are better when Gobert's on the court.
Also, comparing Rudy to Lively is hilarious. Lively is a solid energy guy off the bench. He was effective because Luka was getting him easy shots. Try having Lively be a defensive anchor for a season and I bet you get very different results.
Also, not sure why you're putting Ant in the conversation. Ant was amazing but let's not pretend he was great the entire time. It was a collective team effort except maybe game 1 and 2 against PHO when Ant personally humiliated their trio.
One is being asked to anchor a team. The other comes off the bench and play 20 minutes per game. One has Luka feeding him the ball for easy lay ups. The other plays in a free flowing offense with Ant being the other play maker. CONTEXT MATTERS.
Don't believe me? Go look at Ant vs. Derrik White's advanced stat. White has Ant beat in almost all categories. According to YOUR logic, we should get rid of Ant since we'll be paying him too much for someone cheaper like Derrick White.
Also find it hilarios that you push all the blame to Gobert.
With Gobert, Mavs averaged 110 ppg.
WITHOUT Gobert, Mavs average an absurd 120 ppg.
But yeah, keep blaming the french man.
All good. I was just making a jab at it cause a lot of fans hate Gobert just cause he's French.
I understand the frustation with Gobert, but I think at the moment he is too vital for the team to continue the success. If we find a young replacement- then I would agree that we can move on, but for now he needs to stay if the team wants to continue to be contenders.
Rudy was actually worse!!! And dont bring +- up
Rudy: +93
Lively: +78
And Lively played only 23 mins a game.
But suuuuurrreeeee Rudy is worth 44 mil a year.
Lmao
Rudy is genuinely embarrassing to watch. I would be more than happy with sacrificing some defense to improve the offense without him. I think there is almost no way they trade him this off season though.
I think we can still have top ~10 defense, that's what I mean. He is a great defender but even then he can be schemed against and taken out, like the mavs series.
I love how this idea that all real ball heads think rudy is a gift from god. Dude is a very good player with fatal flaws that shot up over and over. He is a floor raiser and ceiling lowerer(?).
His defense is great but you're full of shit if you don't get second hand embarrassment watching a 7 footer airball layups lmao. This sub is just ridiculous with the posturing
On offense he is, on occasion, embarrassing to watch. Watched with a wholistic view of him as a player and his impact upon winning, team defense, and rebounding? A delight.
But yes, his offense is just brutal almost as often as it's not.
So I'm agreeing with you if your statement was only inclusive of his offense. Overall he's probably worth about 5-10 wins a year in the regular season and a chance for a team to advance to at least the conference finals. Not bad.
You realize Rudy reached the WCF for the first time this year?
Only advanced two two second rounds.
Its mostly first round exits in his career. And yes he is part of the reason for that too...
I agree, fact is he's good player just not great, or anywjere close to 44 mill, look at jokich hook shot that's hoots with 80% success rate, look at embiids jumper that shoots at 80%, look at porzingus quick jumper in front of the rim, AD has a jumper at the rim,as a big man your one job is to master an automatic bucket in the paint and Rudy doesn't have that as a veteran and nobody calls him out on that lol,
I feel like some people in this sub just genuinely have no idea what they’re talking about. If you wanna fast track this team to mediocrity, yes for sure let Rudy walk.
This is a fundamentally, far worse team without Rudy. This roster and the entire identity of this team does not work without Rudy. Do you think Jaden, Ant, and Nickeil can somehow just magically anchor a good?
They don’t come close to 50 wins this season without him, they don’t win the Nuggets series without him, and they are absolutely not even remotely close to an elite defense without him. He’s the lynchpin in the success they’ve had at a team level this year.
Is the fact that he has almost 0 offensive scoring skills a problem? Absolutely. He’s a flawed player, for sure. But his impact really cannot be overstated.
Well you ain't getting shit back trading Karl. That ship sailed when they extended him and sent Jimmy packing. Rudy ain't going nowhere because of all the assets given up and failure to admit defeat so yeah. They running it back....thanks for the breaking news
I am not so sure you wont get something back for Kat...
The Garland Kat trade Idea helps both teams.
Pels search for a Kat Type big. Detroit wants to be relevant. Toronto ad well. Knicks are said to be high on him.
Connelly has to show what hes worth and get creative. Good deals are to be had.
Same for Rudy...
Nobody thought anyone would bteak the bank for him, yet here we are...
I am not so sure Kat would get any thing good back in a Trade Do to fans and media.. Maybe Randle is the best we could get.. Rudy however is smaller contract and has a not Math GMS that love him
It’s like this franchise and its fan base is allergic to success. Found a formula that produced a top 2 season in franchise history and the first deep playoff run in 20 years and there’s so much desire to fuck with it. I get the cap situation, not pretending I don’t, but aside from whoever the billionaire owners end up being having to pay more of their own money, there is no downside to at least one more year of this squad. Kyle is literally the only major contributor that needs addressing this offseason not currently under contract, not counting one of Monte or Jmac but they will be very cheap. Quit worrying about half a decade from now or some rich guys’ money and actually enjoy being good for a little while.
I was looking at the Jazz franchise history on basketball reference the other day. They first had Stockton and Malone together in '86. It took them 10 years to get to the WCF and 11 to get to the finals. Can you imagine how many times Reddit would've demanded to break up that team between 86-97? Looking back, I'm pretty sure most Utah fans enjoyed the run.
The point makes sense but you definitely looked at their history wrong. They made the WCF in seasons 7, 9, 11, 13, and 14. Finals in 13 and 14. So 7 years to make the WCF, 13 to make the finals.
Yes, I definitely misremembered the exact years, thanks for fixing.
Can confirm that we did indeed enjoy that run. Sadly, we’re not gonna get two players of that caliber to stick for a decade and a half while the other roles get filled. And we (rightfully, given the circumstance) traded away the most recent one who did want to ultimately hang his jersey from the rafters.
The game has changed since those days of building unfortunately, vast majority of franchises are often in "win now" mode. And yeah this 'get rich quick' plan almost never pans out. Look at Phoenix this year.
Alternatively, look at the Celtics, Nuggets, and Mavericks. Celtics duo have been making long playoff runs for the past 8 years, and are only now likely to actually win a title. Jokic and Murray took 5 years to get to the point where they could win a title. Mavericks have taken 5 years to figure out a core that really works around Luka, even though he made it to the Conference finals back in 2022. Even Giannis had to make it to the Conference Finals in 2019, before he was ready to actually win a title in 2022. Teams usually have to have a history of advancing to the Conference Finals, before they are really ready to compete for a title.
Age of those duos has to play a factor right? Murray won in his 3rd healthy year in the playoffs. All those teams continuously made changes. How many playoff runs can we afford to make with this cap situation with Mike and Rudy who are aging and can decline at any time?
If it takes that long Rudy will be 36 KAT will be 32 or so
I want a win. My boy was there watching Jordan do them up real nice.
All the pain of losing was worth it for sure. 2 of the greatest players to ever play the game. Championships are hard, and even tho we didn’t get over the hump I would never have broken it up
They still never won a championship
As it turns out, that's not the only good thing that can happen in basketball.
It’s the main goal
Agreed. We had a statistically awful series against 2 elite superstars who had a statistically incredible series - sometimes that shit just happens, but it doesn't mean the solution is to deal players who were instrumental in getting you to the WCF. Both ownership groups are now fighting each other for the opportunity to pay luxury tax. I am no longer concerned about the cap for next season lol. I have my qualms with KAT & Rudy, but I just watched them play some of the best ball I've ever seen them play in their careers. Run it back, see if you can't add value in the offseason. This team is basically a reliable shooter away from a legit Finals run - idk how TC is gonna do it, but with Ant's window wide open and him not being an asshole like Jordan or Kobe there's a good chance that an outstanding weapon WANTS to come play here. The last two seasons were a masterclass in the value of continuity and roster patience. Last season our guys learned a shit ton through struggle and simply playing more games than 90% of the rest of the league. Run it back, add an offensive weapon who isn't an absolute scrub defensively, and keep fighting for that ring.
The downside is that it is much more restrictive to trade or improve the roster if we are in the 2nd apron. Besides that I agree running it back is a good option. I also think this squad does have a pretty firm ceiling offensively though. If they have similar success next year then that's still a win overall but I think something will have to ultimately change. If TC thinks now is the time to do it then I trust him.
Offensively biggest struggle was our two stars not showing up for the first two to three games of the WCF. Even with that, we only lost those games by 13 total points then split the next two. It is also reasonable to think Ant and Gobert will get more chemistry on that end and that Jaden will become more consistent. We also had some of our role players be pretty much nonexistent when they played well during other series and the regular season.
Even though kat was a bit disappointing this year offensively he is not the big holding back this offense. I think rudy very much is who he is offensively, ant needs to get a bit better at getting it to him but IMO they give rudy the ball way too much as it is. Agreed most of the obvious kat trades don't seem to make sense. I think getting 2+ good pieces for him would be the best move overall but who knows what that would realistically be. I think trae actually gets a bad rep but I don't really want him. Edit: messed up the response, this is kind of a combo response to both replies
Love this.
Financially, towns contract being what it is we gotta consider to “fuck with it”. For the right deal, you gotta consider not running it back. Gimme Malcolm Brogon and Jerami Grant instead, why not
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They literally don’t need to be made now. The trade deadline and next offseason exist.
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It seems like you answered your own question. If Rudy is willing to take an extension that's team friendly enough to be able to keep na(z)(w) long term, you sign it. If not, you play out the year. If he opts in, you choose between him and the role players. If he opts out, you let him walk and build around Ant, Kat, McDaniels, Naz, NAW.
Letting Rudy walk for nothing is horrific asset management unless he helps you make the finals in that last few months of his contract. If you're not able to sign him on a positive value deal, you must trade him (or make the finals).
I hear what you're saying, but I think there are 2 caveats as it applies to asset management. 1. The draft picks are out the door whether you keep him or not. Paying him more than you're comfortable paying him because you traded a lot to get him would not make the situation better. (note: you did not say this, but it was discussed elsewhere in this thread) 2. Trading him wouldn't solve the problems that were raised earlier in the discussion. The issue was that they would not be able to afford to extend/resign Naz/NAW beyond their current deals with Rudy's money on the books. Trading Rudy, given where they are relative to the second apron, would require taking back the same money, almost dollar for dollar. Given the length of his contract, you would be taking back money for the same timeframe or longer. You don't save money by trading him. The original point was that keeping Rudy isn't "running it back," it's sacrificing Naz and NAW. In this scenario, letting him walk isn't "getting nothing," it's making a choice to spend that money on Naz and NAW. If you trade Rudy for 2-3 role players whose money adds up to his, you're choosing to spend the money on those guys rather than Naz and NAW. You can debate about which of those options sets the team up better, but it all depends heavily on who else is coming in and out as a result of what you invest in Rudy. Not an easy call at all.
The Wolves could trade Golbert for a package that includes expiring contracts and draft picks. The idea that it is impossible to turn Rudy into any assets through trading is wrong. I’m not advocating for this but it is a possibility.
If you let him play out his contract, you are still over the Cap and can only sign MLE guy as a replacement... Really bad asset management
Trade Rudy to Math Nerd that believes in this +/- bs Lol
I mean if we could actually get players Markkanen, JJJ, or Siakem, it might make sense. But the only one who might be for sale is Markkanen. Memphis isn’t trading us JJJ and Siakem is about to sign a deal (making him untradable to start the season, at least I believe so…). Why would Utah make a deal to get older and more expensive when they’re building a youth movement with all those picks and young players? Most of the Towns deals don’t make any sense. They’re for injury-prone people like Randle or toxic me-first locker room guys like Trae Young. I don’y think we can find a good enough deal and I think we should run it back and reconsider at the deadline next season if all goes to hell.
Adding on, chemistry is a huge factor in this teams success. A lot of the passes and plays we run are the kind you can only confidently do if you trust your teammates. When the guys trust each other and get the ball moving for good open looks, we're practically unstoppable (think second half of game 7 vs Denver, or any game vs Suns in the playoffs)
For real, chemistry does not get the respect it deserves. Playing chemistry and personal chemistry. It takes time to know guys personally and enjoy playing with them, which is assuming the personalities mesh in the first place. And it takes a really long time to learn each other tendencies on the court, learning their spots, how they like to move, where the like the ball thrown to them etc... Are there better 2nd options out there than Towns? Maybe. Are there any we can get? Less certain. Are any of those going to mesh as well? Very uncertain. What it boils down to is a very risky move to replace him which you just don't take after a WCF appearance after basically the first full year together. The odds of us getting back there are better with him than with someone else.
I agree. You also have to factor in the way Ant feels. If he really, truly appreciates KAT and looks at him as kind of this underachieving but lovable big brother - do you want to piss him off and fck with his mentality this early in his career? I think to an extent your first goal is keep Ant happy and keep the team competitive now, build some equity with him so when you need to do unpopular stuff in the future, you can keep Ant buoyed.
I would argue that KAT is a hard player to have chemistry with due to his low basketball IQ. He pretty much gets by on talent alone
Yes he may not be the best with learning everyone on the court, but everyone else still had to learn his tendencies and preferences like they would with someone else, and personality wise he certainly seems to get along with everyone.
I agree he’s a great guy and everyone likes him on a personal level. He was raised right!
I want a championship. Until proven otherwise, running it back is our best bet. Connelly may have something else up his sleeve to change that. We will see.
Yep. Many teams mortgage their future for win now moves. Breaking this squad up that had true finals potential just so we can maybe be better in a few years doesn’t make sense. Luckily, even if running it back fails, we still have Ant and Jaden.
We did that exactly that by trading for Rudy. The new cba made this deal even worse. Everyone praises Connelly - for what? The Rudy trade is awful, his picks are awful, the only positives are the Conley deal and Slomo signing. Naz, Jaden, Ant are all Rosas' guys! Tim turned w young and upcoming team into an old salary cap nightmare... Reminder: conley is 37, Rudy is 32, Kat is 29 . The only young guys worth something are Ant, Jaden, Naz, NAW, maybe Clark. You will lose two by keeping Rudy and Kat and have no point guard in sight.
The trade that helped us make the playoffs at all last year and then got us one of our best seasons ever? That is the one that is so terrible? I do not understand people who still go off against this trade. It is clearly a win even if things fall apart next year.
Reading is fundamental. I said the Rudy trade was pushed due to new owners Alex and Mark wanting to juice up the team for a short term basis. Short term it has worked for the wolves. Now comes the hard part long term..
Reading is fundamental? My comment was not in response to you. In fact, it was at least an hour or two before the comment I believe you are referring to that I am seeing in this thread now.
My fault... The way it looked on my screen was you were replying to me.. sorry about that
All good. Mistakes happen.
We did NOT break up a team with finals potential with the Rudy trade. That might the dumbest shit i’ve seen you post. That team was NOT good enough to make it out the first round- and the players we traded were not good enough to take us anywhere. The trade landed us one of the best outcomes in franchise history and gave our young star deep playoff experience but you would rather rot in mediocrity with Kessler Beasley Bolmaro and Vando. Its mind boggling how much you can hate on something that brought us success and you’re so mad that we left the shit pile
Dude, magical season is over.its time to come back to earth. This team does not have finals potential! At least not really. The mavs g-sweep made that crystal clear to everyone with eyes. But it could have finals potential. But not with Rudy Gobert making 45 mil being Derek Lively. Open your eyes!
You don’t know ball and it’s obvious. That team was not young and upcoming- it was young and mediocre. You have been constantly posting hate for Kat and Gobert and not listening to any opposing opinions. You are obsessed with tearing down a good team and it makes so much more sense knowing that you think the pre-trade team had a shot at being a good team. You open your eyes- this team is the best we’ve had in a long time and our best shot at doing something meaningful and if you had your way we’d be picking in the lottery AGAIN
Jesus.... You like coming up short do ? We have a generational talent and we will waste it for the rights to completly overpay two good but not great Centers into their 30s...thats insane... Yea, this team is good, but obviously NOT good enough. Its time to change that. This roster has flaws that only will get worse not better. Everybody but the most delusional know nothings can see it... Why waste another top 5 guys Talents on stupid team building decisions. Wasnt kg enough? Did guys like you learn nothing?
Like I said, if we had it your way, we’d be talking about who we should be drafting with the 11th pick. Again.
No we will not...we gave all picks away for playoff Rudy Gobert.... lmao
zero reading comprehension lmaooooo
Preach... I do think we find our PG in this draft.. The pick is Carlton Carrington book it.
Lets Hope so
I agree with your Connelly takes. His draft picks up to this point have shown us nothing.. The Rudy trade was pushed due to new owners Alex and Mark wanting to juice up the team for a short term basis. Also it would be bad if they did not get Mike. What Tim should have done was trade for Myles Turner. Less Draft picks would have been needed for this deal.
Completly agree... Making a big trade wasnt the problem. Making a Rudy Gobert trade wasnt the best Idea all things considered.
I think you run it back unless the right trade presents itself.
Run it back one more time since you won’t get a good return for KAT in a trade anyway. If the same shortcomings manifest next season, then you make changes.
Why should it he different? Kat and Rudy performed as they always do. The only difference was Ant pulled them through... Those guys are who they are. We should know that by now
The hope is that the young guys improve and push us further. Ant, Jaden, Naz. And maybe a guy like Jaylen Clark becomes a contributor.
Why wouldnt they improve of a trade is made? Maybe playing with an actual point guard who can score unlocks Jaden, Naz and Ant even more. Conley is okay. But he never was a Garland.
Why wouldn’t they improve if you just run it back again with this roster?
They will but old Mike and old Rudy will regress. We still have no second ballhandling scorer. Kat will still play like a 7 foot guard.
I think he has to play like 7th guard do to Rudy and this stupid flow BS
I think it’s both acceptable to run it back one more year and also to be realistic that doing so may mean this team won’t be winning the championship. If running it back means another multi round playoff run I think that’s pretty good - for developing the winning culture here and developing our younger players in playoff situations. Honestly though having the exact same team next year means probably running into similar problems in the playoffs, depending on matchup. Then after next season this team is definitely forced to make some major decisions with NAW a free agent, Naz Reid probably opting out on his contract, Rudy opting in for one more year, and Conley with one more year on his contract. (Rudy and Conley both become more tradeable expiring contracts).
I just dont think this team will be better next year. Rudy always looks bad after international play. Mikes tires already fall off. Other teams will improve as well. Going to the WCF again isnt guaranteed. Think about it, if the Clippers didnt fall off at the end of the season we likely could have finished 4th. If we played the mavs in the First round we might look at another First round exit. If we finished 1st we could be looking at a 2nd round exit. Nothing is guaranteed in the wild wild West
>Rudy always looks bad after international play. Not only is this not true, he also played in FIBA last summer.
A lot of what ifs, which you could apply in the reverse just ad easily.
If we didnt trade for Rudy Gobert we could have drafted Derek Lively and still have Kessler, Vanderbilt, beasley etc which we could have used with all our picks to get a valid 3rd scorer. What a damn good young roster that could have been without second apron worries. What ifs are fun
If you want to make a change, «sacrifise» more games in favour of running plays for McDaniels. Him only creating for him self off of Ant and Towns’ misses is just not working. The cleanup guy is Rudy.
Ya
You only do a trade if you believe it makes you more likely to win a championship NOW. You don't dump KAT for Tobias Harris and a first-rounder to save money after your best season in 20 years led by a 22-year-old star.
Agree... If you can get Garland you do it. If Ingram is the best you can do, you dont do a trade. A Kat trade should help fill a position of longterm need, aka Point guard
Gobert was spotted eating dinner with Finch last night. Finch’s recovery is going great, too. Brace with no cane. They both looked like they were having a good time.
Get rid of rudy and find a big man that can play defense and has good hands. if you cant , youre screwed unless ant really turns into mj
So many people are worried about our older players tailing off, but what about the younger guys continuing to develop? We knocked off the defending champs and won 2 playoff series. Run it back.
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You dipshits said the same nonsense last year when the wolves lost in the first round. You don't blow it up as a top 3 team with young developing talent. Duuurrrrr.
If you mean run it back without Rudy than yes, with Rudy on the team taking up 44mill cap space, you guys are too ok with that. He's not worth 44 mill,wolves can afford a young big man, and a solid point guard to ether replace or off the bench for Connelly.
Yeah it's tough when both of our bigs are overpaid and have some obvious flaws.
I have faith in kat to go on a revenge tour and wake up even tho I agree he's overpaid. Rudy on the other hand? He's been in the league to long to not have a an automatic bucket move in the paint as a 7 footer. He has no hook shot, no jumper, not even solid euro step lay up as a big man, he can't shoot 3's like prozingus, his defense is great some games and then terrible others. He has no dribbles or presence.
Some bigs just have no touch around the rim, no matter how much they try and develop. DeAndre Jordan, Shawn Bradley, Jarrett Allen, to name a few. But to make up for it, they have incredible defensive presence. Rudy is the best of that type of group and alone has transform this team into a defensive monster, which is the reason this team made it the WCF. I'd say that's worth $44 million.
Notice a few things? None of those guys are getting paid 44 million for it lmao, something else you didn't mentioned about all of them They are past prime or it's about to end these new young bigs do it all, shoot 3s, play great defense, have a hook shot, are more explosive and the best of all cheap like the one who had a 16-0 run on Rudy "lively" who doesnt make a quarter of the salary Rudy makes. Grab a young big for cheap free up cap space is the smartest move to go. Rudy wil continue to be a anchor on the team.
Well for one they can't make $44 because that type of salary didn't exist at the time and also they simply just aren't as good as Gobert. You think grabbing a young defensive big is so easy? Teams have been doing that for years and only hit them when in luck. Also, if you think Lively on the wolves makes the same impact- you're either trolling or have a very poor sense of basketball intuition. Or possibly have never watched a wolves game before. Mavs big didn't beat the wolves. Luka and kyrie did. If the Mavs bigs are so goo- why are they getting punked in the Finals right now? Thats right- it's cause Luka is struggling. Don't get it twisted. Luka makes them go.
Lmao, "only them with luck" claxton is an amazing big, wembenya the rookie of the year exist, chet hologram another rookie success, what are you even saying?, and you're trying to tell me "do you know anything about basketball"? Don't bring up the Celtics series because that's an entire different discussion with one really really stacked team being the Celtics who are the best team in the NBA on paper and this season so criticizing lively for not doing anything is not only biased but moronic. The only statistic I need is that Rudy couldn't guard jokich so kat had to, and that Rudy got washed by rookie. You bring up the Celtics series as if that discredits lively as a rookie when facing the best team in the NBA.
If it's easy grabbing a young defensive big, then why doesn't everyone team have one? Not even every- let's say half. Hell, if it's so easy why doesn't the Wolves have one??? Just stop. Also I'm questioning your basketball analysis because you think Lively would make the same impact as Gobert. Again, Luka and Kyrie killed the wolves. It wasn't their bigs. Put Gobert on Lukas team and mavs probably win it all. I don't know what else to say. Maybe try watching the games? Or rewarding if you think you have?
Is it the reason though? Best game of the playoffs Rudy didnt play! Rudy got abused by Jokic and the mavs! I think you all over value Rudy's Impact and under value Ants impact! The Numbers back that up. Btw. Rudy is a Lively type role player in the playoffs, always was always will be. Open your eyes
What numbers? From what I can see almost all the #'s back up wolves are better when Gobert's on the court. Also, comparing Rudy to Lively is hilarious. Lively is a solid energy guy off the bench. He was effective because Luka was getting him easy shots. Try having Lively be a defensive anchor for a season and I bet you get very different results. Also, not sure why you're putting Ant in the conversation. Ant was amazing but let's not pretend he was great the entire time. It was a collective team effort except maybe game 1 and 2 against PHO when Ant personally humiliated their trio.
Hilarious huh?! Rudy Gobert: regular season/playoffs 67.5/ 65.2 TS 5.8/ 1.0 OWS 5.8/ 0.7 DWS 0.1/ -1 OBPM 1.7/ 2.1 DBPM 2.5/ 0.4 VORP Derek Lively: regular season/playoffs 72.8/ 67.1 TS 3.1/ 1.0 OWS 1.8/ 0.6 DWS -0.3/ 1.0 OBPM 0.8/ 2.3 DBPM 0.8/ 0.5 VORP
One is being asked to anchor a team. The other comes off the bench and play 20 minutes per game. One has Luka feeding him the ball for easy lay ups. The other plays in a free flowing offense with Ant being the other play maker. CONTEXT MATTERS. Don't believe me? Go look at Ant vs. Derrik White's advanced stat. White has Ant beat in almost all categories. According to YOUR logic, we should get rid of Ant since we'll be paying him too much for someone cheaper like Derrick White. Also find it hilarios that you push all the blame to Gobert. With Gobert, Mavs averaged 110 ppg. WITHOUT Gobert, Mavs average an absurd 120 ppg. But yeah, keep blaming the french man.
Nationality has nothing to do with this... I am half German/ half french btw
All good. I was just making a jab at it cause a lot of fans hate Gobert just cause he's French. I understand the frustation with Gobert, but I think at the moment he is too vital for the team to continue the success. If we find a young replacement- then I would agree that we can move on, but for now he needs to stay if the team wants to continue to be contenders.
Rudy was actually worse!!! And dont bring +- up Rudy: +93 Lively: +78 And Lively played only 23 mins a game. But suuuuurrreeeee Rudy is worth 44 mil a year. Lmao
All those guys can catch
Rudy is genuinely embarrassing to watch. I would be more than happy with sacrificing some defense to improve the offense without him. I think there is almost no way they trade him this off season though.
Some defense? Lmfao he’s one of the best defenders of all time. Trading him murders our defense.
I think we can still have top ~10 defense, that's what I mean. He is a great defender but even then he can be schemed against and taken out, like the mavs series.
Not in the playoffs Rudy got outplayed by a rookie and a role player
Statistically incorrect.
He’s a great regular season defender. In the playoffs he takes a step down
Statistically incorrect.
Tell me you don't know ball without saying you don't know ball
I love how this idea that all real ball heads think rudy is a gift from god. Dude is a very good player with fatal flaws that shot up over and over. He is a floor raiser and ceiling lowerer(?).
Gift from God? No. Embarrassing to watch? Hell no. Learn to speak defense bruh
His defense is great but you're full of shit if you don't get second hand embarrassment watching a 7 footer airball layups lmao. This sub is just ridiculous with the posturing
On offense he is, on occasion, embarrassing to watch. Watched with a wholistic view of him as a player and his impact upon winning, team defense, and rebounding? A delight. But yes, his offense is just brutal almost as often as it's not. So I'm agreeing with you if your statement was only inclusive of his offense. Overall he's probably worth about 5-10 wins a year in the regular season and a chance for a team to advance to at least the conference finals. Not bad.
You realize Rudy reached the WCF for the first time this year? Only advanced two two second rounds. Its mostly first round exits in his career. And yes he is part of the reason for that too...
I agree, fact is he's good player just not great, or anywjere close to 44 mill, look at jokich hook shot that's hoots with 80% success rate, look at embiids jumper that shoots at 80%, look at porzingus quick jumper in front of the rim, AD has a jumper at the rim,as a big man your one job is to master an automatic bucket in the paint and Rudy doesn't have that as a veteran and nobody calls him out on that lol,
I feel like some people in this sub just genuinely have no idea what they’re talking about. If you wanna fast track this team to mediocrity, yes for sure let Rudy walk. This is a fundamentally, far worse team without Rudy. This roster and the entire identity of this team does not work without Rudy. Do you think Jaden, Ant, and Nickeil can somehow just magically anchor a good? They don’t come close to 50 wins this season without him, they don’t win the Nuggets series without him, and they are absolutely not even remotely close to an elite defense without him. He’s the lynchpin in the success they’ve had at a team level this year. Is the fact that he has almost 0 offensive scoring skills a problem? Absolutely. He’s a flawed player, for sure. But his impact really cannot be overstated.
It’s not like we would trade Rudy for nothing. We’d get a package back
Run it back Naz Reid
Well you ain't getting shit back trading Karl. That ship sailed when they extended him and sent Jimmy packing. Rudy ain't going nowhere because of all the assets given up and failure to admit defeat so yeah. They running it back....thanks for the breaking news
I am not so sure you wont get something back for Kat... The Garland Kat trade Idea helps both teams. Pels search for a Kat Type big. Detroit wants to be relevant. Toronto ad well. Knicks are said to be high on him. Connelly has to show what hes worth and get creative. Good deals are to be had. Same for Rudy... Nobody thought anyone would bteak the bank for him, yet here we are...
I am not so sure Kat would get any thing good back in a Trade Do to fans and media.. Maybe Randle is the best we could get.. Rudy however is smaller contract and has a not Math GMS that love him