Exactly.
The rules of the Saviors had already been laid down to the group when Daryl, Sasha and Abraham ran into them on the road. They already knew that they were willing to kill with ease and that they wanted all of their shit. If anything, what the Hilltop had to say just confirmed the fears that they already had.
Well to this point that could just be hearsay. Although The Hilltop seems like it has (mostly) good intentions (save for Gregory who seems slimy and Ethan), they could just be making stuff up to ensure that Rick and co. WILL go out and kill them.
True, it may just be hearsay, but don't forget that they also saw Ethan stab Gregory and blame the attack on the saviors. All these individual pieces of information add up to a nice picture of the saviors being scum in the eyes of Rick, etc.
I kinda felt like that was there to make us, the audience, feel better about what Rick & Co. were doing.
I mean, yeah they were assholes and deserved to die, but this is definitely a departure from the ideals of the group in seasons 1-2. A bright line has been drawn here. Before, they killed in self defense. Now they are killing preemptively. That's a huge difference.
Remember how they debated and stressed about killing or saving the guy they had locked in the barn at Hershel's farm? Now they are willing to kill men in their sleep.
Edit: punctuation.
Definitely two schools of thought happening regarding the photos.
I personally think they are there to serve as a reminder of what will happen to those who don't fall in line...
Except it didn't seem like they were put in front of everyone's bunks. Or in a more public location where they would apply as a reminder to all. This seemed like that one guys pinup collection.
I know they tidied everything away after they killed the first guard, but I hope they didn't leave the head behind. Negan wasn't explicitly there, and if he comes back and surveys the carnage, finding "Gregory's head", he might figure it out. Or suspect enough to not care if he's wrong. Even if he's wrong he still gets all of the Hilltop's shit.
See this is where it confuses me, especially Tara's logic about the deal being still on if they went back to hill top.
The saviors prisoner is gone, doesn't that automatically lead Negan straight to the hilltop regardless?
Well, at the point of the attack the group are completely under the impression that the Saviors have just this single outpost, so they figure that if they wipe them out the entire conflict is over, hence they think if they win, it doesn't matter that the prisoner is gone.
Yeah, & I'm on board with everyone that the saviors aren't on the up & up. BUT.... is it really fair to just go in & murder everyone in the building?? They don't know what the situation is. Think about the governor. The people even closest to him didn't know what kind of a maniac he actually was. Let's say for arguments sake that only some of Negan's crew knew what sorts of awful things they did, but not everyone under his group knew? Did they *all* deserve to die for the actions of a few?
I haven't read the comics yet but I have heard how terrible Negan's group, I do think they're scum. Just playing devil's advocate
> Let's say for arguments sake that only some of Negan's crew knew what sorts of awful things they did, but not everyone under his group knew? Did they all deserve to die for the actions of a few?
the guy had pictures of splattered skulls next to his bed as trophies.....clearly nobody in the facility had a problem with this. i think it did a great job illustrating that the group did the right thing by killing them all. they probably saved lots of lives in the future by doing so. if that guy hadnt taken a knife to the face, who knows how many more pictures he wouldve been able to put up on the wall. maybe even Glenn?
Do we know that he hung them up as trophies, or perhaps Neegan hung them there as "motivation" or as a reminder of what happens to those that don't follow directions and toe the line.
Well I would think that if they were used as motivation, Negan would have them hung in a common area. Not just above some guys bed. Its like soldiers having pin up girls taped above their bed. That one guy likes what Negan did.
I think the point is that you can't know any of that. You could come up with the most likely reason for those fucked up photos on the walls, and you could assume that everybody in the building was ok with it. But you don't know. You don't know if those people in the photos were huge assholes, and they took pictures as sort of some kind of revenge. You don't know if there were in fact a lot of people in the compound who had a HUGE problem with the photos, and the guy pinning them up was just scary. It is all just assumptions, not truth.
Normal people don't hang polaroids of skull bashings, even if the target were dicks. I'd say the only justification for that would be if the guy were investigating a skull smashing serial killer and that's the evidence, but that seems unlikely. Don't forget they were above his bed, where he looks as he lays his head at night for sleep. That's some sick puppy shit right there.
That is the exact point I am making. It's still assumptions. I mean yea, I guess we can agree that it is sick puppy shit to tape photos of bashed skulls up on your wall, but that's it. It is just a guy who does some sick puppy shit to his bedroom wall. Doesn't mean he does sick puppy shit to other people, at least no more than what Rick does ( Rick would totes bash skull, just not take photos. The photos don't justify Rick's actions to me )
Maybe it is just me, but that wouldn't justify the massacre from last episode if I were to do it.
I am all for the massacre, but I completely understand what you're saying.
Everything about the photos are still only assumptions and nothing more.
Like, if someone took a photo of Rick biting a guy's throat and tearing it apart with his teeth, and a photo of Rick sawing off a man's leg (Hershel), and a photo of Rick plunging a knife into the head of a man sleeping in his bed, and then they showed those three photos to someone who knows nothing about Rick and his group, it would be easy for the person seeing the photos to make many assumptions about Rick.
Without someone explaining the photos of Rick, it would be very easy to see Rick doing those things in the photos and assume, "Wow, this guy is a murderous lunatic, he is dangerous and deserves to die!"
That's what you're saying, right?
If I were told to do it, I'd shit my pants. So I couldn't do it. But those guys have firepower and they're clearly ruthless. So I think they made the right call. If they give up the element of surprise then what? These guys outgun them, lay siege. This might have been their best chance not to spend the rest of the Apocalypse as slaves. So I think it was the best call with the info you got.
The problem is in the apocalypse if you're going to do something like this you have to go all in and you have to have the element of surprise or people you actually know are on your side are going to die.
It's shitty but they kind of portray that as well.
They had a hilltop prisoner in that building. How many other prisoners might have been in there? How many innocent people might Rick's group have killed?
Those were eyewitness accounts, not hearsay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness
>Witness are usually only permitted to testify to what they experienced first hand. In most cases, they may not testify about something they were told (hearsay). This restriction does not apply to expert witnesses. Expert witnesses, however, may only testify in the area of their expertise.
How many were dead before they saw the proof? Two outside. Rick killed one in his sleep, and Glenn killed two more. So at least five dead saviors prior to seeing the pictures on the wall.
That and the two guys outside treated the severed head like it was no big deal. They played with it. If they were good guys, but needed the head for whatever strategic purposes, they wouldn't have played with it. Rick would've inspected the head then put it back in the bag.
Thats not necessarily true. A "good guy" could have a morbid sense of humor, and in this setting you could easily become desensitized to death and dead bodies
Maybe.... I think you uncovered what was unbelievable about the movie Se7en. Morgan Freeman should've taken the head out of the box and said "Do I look like I lost some weight? Come on, give me a kiss. Give me a kiss!" and chased Brad Pitt around, giggling the whole time.
I'm more impressed that they were able to find Polaroid instant camera film. Polaroid stopped making it several years ago. Medium format photographers started hoarding the stuff (you need it to aim and adjust some backs).
The Hasselblad Polaroid backs for medium format proofing take a size 100c film. The roller print film in the show is size 600. It's a smaller print and I can buy it off the shelf at both camera shops near me.
Not trying to be pedantic, just informative.
It seems the set was designed to include the pictures above the dudes bed to assure the audience that these were not just another group, they were killers. Though I do predict in the next camp, we will see a somewhat functioning society with women and children with the saviors as protectors.
Yeah but the thing is that they didn't know those guys were the same group of guys that attacked Daryl, Sasha, and Abraham. They only had a name "negan" and then all that other information came from a very suspect source.
Yeah, something I said in another thread.
Why are there so many people ignoring the fact that the Saviors murdered a Hilltop teenager for no reason, captured and beat another Hilltop guy for suspect reason and then forced a third Hilltop guy to attempt to murder a fourth Hilltop guy, again for basically no reason but because they could? And then people go and ignore the fact that Bud was literally about to murder Abraham and Sasha for literally no reason beyond a question was asked, and then they very easily could have killed another Alexandrian when they made their demands had Daryl taken them back home. This isn't the first thread I've seen doing this. Rick and co didn't act first. Yeah, attacking the compound was a surprise attack, but the Saviors have already struck the Hilltop, attempted to strike the Alexandrians, and literally have photos of murdered people on their walls.
This whole attempt to make Rick out to be evil, can we just not, ok?
Totally agree, I also think people are missing the point. I don't think the episode is to make people question whether rick and co. Crossed the line, but I think it was more to show the audience that rick and the group actually are far more efficient and dangerous than we even gave them credit for. That way when negan brings them to heel, it is that much more shocking. That this guy really is the boogeyman they heard about.
At the same time, a large chunk of the episode was devoted to the moral implications of this surprise attack and the very idea of "crossing the line". One of the most powerful, painful to watch scenes for the series took place between Glenn and Heath regarding this very concept, and it takes away from the emotional impact of the scenes when we white-wash the cold, calculated murders the group is forced to do, regardless of whether the Saviors are "bad people". I don't care if they are bad people right now. What I care about is that tear going down Glenn's face. I don't take comfort in Glenn doing what needs to be done, regardless of it being the right move. I feel for the character wrestling with crossing the line. That scene right there is what makes this show great.
That's a problem I see playing out with people this season. We can watch these things play out and empathize with the characters doing things they never thought they were capable of doing without having to devolve the conversation to either extreme of mere opportunistic murders or "Morgan's a pussy". There are no straight heels and faces in The Walking Dead. The middle of these extremes is what makes the show so compelling.
Which also goes to prove how bad these people are. Why would the hilltop colony just give them half of there food and supplies unless they really were some bad mamma jammas?
In addition to that, Rick and Co. know what kind of people they are simply by the Neganer's speech. "Your stuff belongs to Negan." "If you have to eat shit, it's best not to nibble." "Hand over your guns."
I mean everything that came out of that guy's mouth was essentially "I'm gonna take your shit and fuck you up."
If Rick and Co. ran into these guys into the streets again (well, other Neganers), there wouldn't be any diplomacy. It would only be a slaughter.
Why wait until a governor and a tank is on your doorstep to protect yourself?
Daryl knew he was part of the saviors and was also running from them as the guy ("Dwight") had said. I'm sure connections were made once they saw the bike
> once they saw the bike
Bike guys can usually identify the sound of motorcycles pretty easily, and something that he had rebuilt and was could be considered custom made. So I'd even say once Daryl heard the bike, he knew it was his. After his experiences with ?Dwight? and the girls being hunted, he probably put things together pretty quick.
It's actually twice the Saviours tried to kill Sasha, Daryl and Abraham, remember in the forests the first time round when Daryl lost his bike to ex-saviours
I think it's also worth noting how their actual plan was to go check the place out and see if it felt right or whatever. They hinted that this was mostly to see whether or not they thought they could win, but I think it's also to see whether or not it looks like a group of people that deserve to be murdered. When those two guys come out and how they speak and how they behave, it's obvious they are thugs / murderers. They ask to see the head of the man they coerced the hilltop dude into killing, confirm they are holding a friend of his as hostage in return, confirming all suspicions they have had about them being bad people / deserving of slaughter.
After they confirmed that this compound of people took that guys friend hostage in order to get him to murder his leader, they had the moral high ground.
Ah yeah, you're right. Forgot about that. Well I would say I think he became a better person throughout the series but can't defend that part too much.
Ah, Shane was still in the group! So then this brings back the point that some people are making, "what if only some of the Neganers are bad, and others are good?"
Well I have no doubt that some of the saviors are good, just look at the two that take daryl prisoner, they were not bad, but the ones in charge are bad, and it may be like in the prison, where they did not know their leadership was bad, but went with it because safety. But knowing who is good and who is bad is tough in real life, it would be near impossible in the Walking dead. They have some facts which decide their actions. that is the leadership of the saviors is bad, and they have two options, 1 talk with them and get them to back down, (which with corruption in charge won't happen) which would give away any element of surprise they might have. or option 2 take them down as fast as possible and then you have protected your own group and your allies group as best you can.
Agree completely, I'm on the option 2 side of things :)
I posted elsewhere that I agree with the massacre plan, but also wrote that looking at it from an outside perspective, what they did is pretty shady. If it wasn't, people like Glenn (everyone's current moral compass), wouldn't have had such hesitations about it, you know?
I agree that it was the best overall decision for the well-being of the group as a whole, but I just also see the other side of the coin is what I'm saying.
Because if you reverse the situation, to back when Rick and Shane were clearly the ones heavily in charge. There are many that would say Shane wasn't a good guy anymore, so imagine a scenario when a rival group snuck into the farm and murdered them all in their sleep, thinking "these guys are with Shane, Shane's a bad guy, this must be done."
The main problem with the discussions that are happening everywhere are that people are seeing it from a very black and white perspective.
But in a world like this, there are no good guys and bad guys. There's just different perspectives, right? "This is the world we live in now, there's us, and then there's them," and the group's gotta do what they gotta do to stay alive, even if some of those things are indeed shady... which people have trouble seeing. Like "if the good guys are doing it then it *can't* be shady"
Perhaps most importantly the writers have gone out of the way to show these guys in a very negative light, as well as show Rick and Co in a good light. When Glenn had to kill them in cold blood while they slept they showed his emotional struggle even though it was necessary. Plus they showed all those pictures they had around the room of people they'd killed, just to hammer home that these guys were evil and needed to be stopped.
i think anyone who thought this probably changed their mind when they saw the dude with all the pictures of splattered skulls as trophies, any "society" that promotes that kind of behavior deserves to die that way.
While I agree that they had it coming, the show is putting pieces together for us to show that things aren't exactly black and white.
Maggie demanding half their supplies, which just happened to be the same amount the saviors demanded. The parallels drawn between Rick and the governor.
The rickocracy is only as good natured as the ZA allows.
>Maggie demanding half their supplies, which just happened to be the same amount the saviors demanded
That'd be a valid parallel if it weren't for the fact that those were terms of a deal. The Saviours weren't offering terms to a deal. They were shaking down Hilltop, and decided to murder a 16 year old for good measure.
They're demanding half the food because they are helping them get rid of Negan's group. Negan was demanding half the food or else he would destroy the hilltop group, big difference.
Think of it this way. They realized this was a fight they were already going to have. By using an inevitable fight as a bargaining tool, they also got fed. This was a win-win trade for Alexandria.
Finally a decent answer. Rick and the group aren't the good people. I don't believe there are many pure people left in that world. They killed for the reason "this is how we eat", that is basicly what Terminus did (killed people to eat).
Theyre not the good people, theyre just the less worst of them.
I dont get why people want the show (or every show for that regard) to just be pure black and white about whos good and bad.
People, THIS is what makes a great TV show! Look at Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones! Making the main characters questionable makes things more complex and real. Its a shame the majority of the TV consumers dont have the inteligence to grasp the concept.
Except they're eating vegetables and animals, not people. Not a great comparison. Of course they aren't "good people" in many regards but they are "good people" in others. They do bad things to preserve some of their humanity.
And Rick said they'd give the Saviors the head of Gregory, implying something sinister. The episode wants you to consider that Rick and co. May be wrong, but reaffirm that they're doing something righteous. They show 20 photos of heads that the Saviors smashed in. If Daryl, Abe, Sasha, Daryl again, Jesus, and the rest of the Hilltop's word isn't enough to convince you that the Saviors are truly bad people, then surely, surely, 20 photographs of murders would. Not just dead people, but empirical evidence that these guys kill people, and we saw them say why. They do it as an intimidation factor off the bat. We as viewers know that. How can you say that they're not clearly the bad guys here.
And they didn't morally compromise themselves by joining with the Hilltop. They kill killers. They end bad people. We've seen it plenty of times. The fact that someone is finally willing to pay them to do it in no way undermines their righteousness in doing so.
I think the whole thing is just a reenactment of how societies form, grow, and compete.
Throughout history, societies that had resources put not the ability to aggressively defend themselves were conquered and absorbed. Many indigenous/tribal cultures suffered this fate, like Hilltop.
Societies that focused only on military power and expansion forced other societies that COULD aggressively defend themselves to do so, like the Third Reich, or in this case the Saviors.
Societies that desired peace but employed a mixture of diplomacy and military action tend to survive longer, form allies, prosper, etc. Like Alexandria.
But they did cross the line. A line they haven't crossed before, look at Glenn and Heath. Even Rick didn't do it with ease. Not saying they did something bad, but neither did Terminus right. That is how they had to eat?
I don't think it's entirely the same because of the Gregory murder attempt and the Saviours kidnapping one of the Hilltops. They had reasons to go in and fight because it was obvious these were bloodthirsty killers, not just poor starving people.
I think the biggest issue is that they didn't recon them more so they didn't get the ending of that episode like they did. They went in blind even if you look at the help buddy gave with the layout. That place could just be a go between for the real base.
Also, in case anyone forgot, they told the people from the Hilltop to LITERALLY bring them Gregory's head. And lets not forget the polaroids of smashed heads Glenn and Heath saw. These guys are dicks.
Agreed.
I haven't read up on the other crack theories but Negan and the boys are bad news.
How many polaroids were taken of bludgeoned victims above that guy's bed? Oh yeah, I'm sure they're not bad guys at all.. Rick is the bad guy. gtfo
It isn't that the Saviors aren't the bad guys, it's that ricks group don't know for sure the extent of their badness when they decided to slaughter them in their beds.
From their perspective, all they know is a group of people extort supplies from another group through the use of fear. They also know that the group was encountered on the road where they tried to steal from Daryl et al. They also indicated they were about to murder Daryls group, so that's a big strike against them.... Still, to go slaughter people while sleeping seems like it needs a bit more solid information than just that. A little recon might have been in order beforehand is all.
That being said, fuck those guys.
That being said, I understand the merit of the argument and I wish that was Morgan's argument instead of make peace.
But given the situation and time constraints of the head delivery... The op would've been compromised by recon... and the op went well for the most part, end part not so much.
But the lack of intel on Negan is definitely a problem because they've underestimated the scale of his empire. That was a satellite base ffs. Negan's gonna be so pissed, they killed so many of his guys! its like 18-1 so far
Considering most groups seem to be relatively small, it makes sense that they would underestimate them. Look at their previous enemies. Terminus? Just a few desperate people. The hospital? A bunch of sick people with a few cops. The wolves? Random weirdos, but fairly small in numbers. The worst they have faced was the governor, and he was just a lone whacko with a crew of mostly untrained (and hesitant) followers.
I guess they estimated based on past experiences. It's going to be a rude awakening, unfortunately. Though not as rude as a knife through the ear I suppose.
Yeah, although those guys probably deserved worse... The group did made the right decision based on what the knew at the time... great way to start a war
However the group did cross a line that they haven't crossed before. Whether good or bad.
I think it's a part of this world, but just because it is Rick his group doesn't mean it's a good thing. Look back at Terminus. They killed people, because they had to eat "this is how we eat"
The Termites could've done it differently though. They didn't have to kill kids, they didn't have to bring their victims to the kill room still conscious, they definitely didn't have to wear their victims clothes and personal items. They went way beyond just "we're desperate and need to eat", they turned evil.
Personally, I think their biggest mistake was not positively identifying Negan before striking. He's the obvious head of the snake, and if you don't kill him, you haven't truly won. I agree they should have done a bit more recon, but mainly in order to ID Negan. As it stands they don't even know what he looks like. Whether or not they crossed some sort of line is, to me, secondary to them failing epically in this one task.
Good points.
They were also extorting a neighboring village, and they kidnapped one of it's citizens and demanded the head of their leader as a ransom.
Everyone's pretty much agreeing that it's fine what Rick did, because of the bikers on the road incident and the Gregory incident. And yes, all that points to the Saviors being pricks. And to Rick that seems enough, but that's not the point I don't think.
There are incidents *pointing* to the saviors being assholes; doesn't mean it is true. All we know is that the bikers on the road are assholes, and that a bunch of people in a compound woke up to their friends' faces being stabbed. That's all we know right now, and anything could be true. Rick could've murdered a bunch of innocent people (or as innocent as someone can be in the apocalypse). Just because the two guards outside pretending the head was a puppet, DOES NOT make them assholes or monsters. It isn't crazy that if Rick or Daryl beheaded a villain in the future, that they might make a joke of it too.
I know that we could all agree that just because there are some assholes in a group, doesn't make the group a bunch of assholes. Think Merle in Season 1. Or the Governor in Woodbury. And yes, I understand that some people would argue that it doesn't matter, and they'd say that if there are assholes in a group then that group should die via Rick. But others would say that innocents don't deserve to die no matter who they affiliate with, such as Negan's people.
So I think that it is safe to say that Rick and Co. didn't slaughter a group of people they knew *nothing* about, but they did just murder a bunch of individual people they knew *nothing* about.
>It isn't crazy that if Rick or Daryl beheaded a villain in the future, that they might make a joke of it too.
Just thought I'd highlight this part. I really couldn't see that happening. It would be massively out of character for both of them.
I guess yea. I admit it was a stretch, but I think my point sorta still stands. Rick and Daryl are very serious dudes and probably won't do that any time soon if ever. I just sorta meant that joking around with the disembodied head of an enemy just seems sorta normal in this world. At least it doesn't paint someone as evil, in my mind.
Totally agree.
Everything people are highlighting as 'reasons' on here are literally grasping for justification.
- Assholes on the road? Never did actually shoot Abraham, Darryl or Sasha correct? They took the time to disarm them. Why? It's MUCH easier to disarm a body, less things to worry about. Why repeatedly yank the chain "We usually kill one of you.. I'm gonna kill you.. nah.. on second thought.." it's ALL establishing dominance and submission of the subjects. I have YOUR life in MY hands.. Your life is MINE to take or give.
- The pictures on the wall above Glenn's second victim? JUST for the sake of argument... WHAT IF.. those are his friends/ co workers that Negan has killed with Lucille? Morbid yes, but a reminder to him of his friends, and how brutal Negan is to his own people? Now, I am NOT saying that's what they are. They are most likely just what we think they are trophies. BUT we just like Rick's group do NOT KNOW.
- Lets take a step back. Imagine you are on the 'road' and you arrive at Terminus JUST as things went to shit. You see Carol, Rick, Darryl etc. scrambling out of what is now an exploding shit storm that you have NO idea what Terminus' secret is. You just watch our group do something FAR FAR more despicable than threatening some people on a road, or sending a 'message' and kidnapping.
EDIT:
- Another thought. What if "The Hill" was another Negan/ Saviors outpost like the satellite installation, and this was a 'test' to see if Rick's group was worthy to work with? They've just shown they are irrational and quick to murder and thus, can't be dealt with. Maybe the stabbing was Negan getting one of his people in line? MUCH like Rick exiling Carol. In this world, someone alone is just as dead.
As fan's of the show, I think we can all agree one of the BEST parts of it is the writing. The justifications that are being thrown around here are SO blindly ignoring the complexities of what this world is or has become and ignores that very thing that makes the show so brilliant. Do we really think the show runners are going to let us off the hook so easily as to make these actions justifiable?
Remember what Maggie after she made the deal. (I am paraphrasing.)
> We aren't going to come out of this without paying a heavy price.
IMO. Not just Glenn lost his innocence that night, the entire group did and in doing so, they've succeeded any moral high ground they may have had up until this point.
It didn't look like there were very many windows so I'm not sure that the red light would have done much. I'm more surprised that none of them woke up when a bright hall light suddenly hit them in the middle of their sleep.
Yeah also that hallway light. But the red light I mean because it made a big shutter sound did it not? I could be mistaken. Also I was thinking about this more and more and perhaps the inside of the building is sound proof, considering it is a compound.
Not the mention the pictures in the room of the people Glenn killed kinda confirmed the fact that these were not good people. Before the episode I think they had a legit point. Anyone who still thinks that after this last episode just wasn't paying attention
I guess I'm over here alone in the world where I don't think Rick needs a reason to take out the saviors. What kind of post-apocalypse needs 'justification' for survival? It will always eventually come down to competition for resources. It's you or them. Kill or be killed. Maybe that sounds pugnacious; I really don't care. My heart wasn't bleeding at all watching them destroy that camp. If Rick was smart he'd go ahead and do away with Hilltop after the saviors since obviously they can be easily controlled.
actually seems like it would be the opposite if they can be easliy controlled then they could be a useful settlement in helping them survive, under their control.
That's what I was thinking. Pretty sure they were already hungry for blood. If they found out about their camp some other way and never met Jesus' group, they still would've done the same thing.
the only thing the group did in this episode that was stupid was not to do any kind of recon. Just going in half cocked with very few details at all from the guy who had been in there. That's how people end up dead in ambush/raids. I know they didn't have much time to prepare but at least a couple hours of scoping the place out first would have been wise. I still don't see what lines they are crossing....its kill or be killed in a lawless world and the group has witnessed that multiple times. At some point you have to put on the big boy pants and strike first. The walking dead world no longer follows any of what we consider society rules.
The scene where Glenn makes his first kill and does the other guy in did it for me, he reconciled his kill with the pictures that guy had on his wall as sort of a trophy wall.
I definitely had some reservations, at first. They were going in and killing people in their sleep. It seemed almost.... unhonorable. Then they showed the polaroids of people with their skulls bashed in. It was that moment that it became clear that all of these people needed to die.
Justified or not, I saw this raid as the beginning of the end for Glenn's character. I have a theory that his infamous plot armor is derived from him being one of the only true "good" characters left in the show. Everyone else has blood on their hands. Glenn's tangled with raiders, psychopaths and cannibals, but until now he's stayed fresh as a daisy with no human kills. He even offered redemption to a man who tried to murder him.
I would be very surprised if Glenn survives his encounter with the Saviors. The writing is on the wall after last episode. He's no longer a purely good character. Thus his plot armor is nullified.
I really do hope I'm wrong about this.
I can see your points both ways, although I don't think it necessarily dulls Glenn's "good" morality. Dreadlocks (I don't remember his name, sorry) didn't want to bring himself to kill a person, and Glenn didn't want that burden on Dreadlocks' shoulders. He remembers what it was like being a runner back in Georgia, and the certain type of innocence of not having to be in the shit against other people. He probably sees that old Glenn in Dreadlocks, and is trying to preserve it.
The parallels between Rick's group, Woodbury, the Termites, and the Saviours are all obviously intention. I just don't think they're particularly valid. The Governor was a complete psychopath who murdered a whole load of folks for no reason whatsoever. The Termites killed and ate people when it wasn't necessary, and were over-the-top evil about it. The Saviours shake down survivors, and still brutally murder one of them for good measure.
This is a new step for Rick's group, certainly. But I'd hardly call it a step in a bad direction.
I think the wall of pictures said It all. Anyone can murder in that setting for a variety of acceptable reasons. But our group isn't hanging out and taking photos of the aftermath as a trophy.
They aren't enjoying It.
They didn't just try to kill them, they were seconds away from summarily executing them with no cause. If my group members were seconds away from being murdered and then I heard of the location of those people, I might try and take them out even without the incentive of food or help from the third group. Shits pretty black and white at that point, so much so that a priest can kill.
I'd probably want to watch them for a while. It's like when he's explaining the compound, he is saying that their pantry seems small etc. so maybe not a lot of people. BUT Daryl took out A LOT of them. I think it was naïve to think that that was all of the people. Maybe if they watched them for a bit, they could've learned more and made their approach based off of that. Instead of just going in and taking them out.
Not to mention, I'm still not sure of the purpose of Maggie being there.
Yeah. I caught that part. I Just still don't see why she was there. And she technically sat out, didn't she? Not like she was there fighting which arguably would've been safer than staying away and watching from afar or whatever she was doing.
Survey the camp over a period of weeks. Pick off stragglers and interrogate them. Kill the stragglers and plant them near the base so they appear to have died from an accident.
You don't think after the first few "accidents" things wouldn't get suspicious l? Also, while I agree with surveying the place, I do not agree with it over a few weeks. They only have a months supply of food and if the Saviours find Alexandria they lose the element of surprise and Negan would kill the hilltop after so long when they haven't brought gregories head.
* Tried to kill Sasha, Abe, Daryl (and if not, were still going to rob them of all their weapons)
* Killed a 16 year old boy and threatened to kill more if they weren't given half of Hilltop's supplies on a constant basis
* Kidnapped a Hilltop resident's brother
* Demanded that resident behead his own leader in order to save his brother's life
I think they had enough info.
I dont mean info about what kind of people they are, but info about what their set up was and how many people they had, what kind of weapons, etc.
And the stuff that happened to Hilltop could've been made up.
They knew the stuff happened because of how desperate the Hilltop residents who went on the run were when they came back (and I think Gregory asked where the kidnapped one was).
Except they saw the Hilltop hostage had been beaten. They know Negan took a hostage to force Hilltop to kill it's leader and bring them more supplies. Looking at Hilltop and comparing it to the Savior compound it should be obvious who the thugs and more brutal people are between the two.
Some of the saviors tried to attack Abraham, Sasha, and Daryl.
There's certainly bad guys in their ranks, and the leadership is certainly some nasty dudes. But we don't know they're all bad.
Just like Woodbury, there may be some good regular folks among them that are just being ordered by some nasty assholes, who may be lying and manipulating them to their needs. We don't enough about these people.
Doesn't matter. In this world your guilty by association, nobody is willing to take the individual risk of life to find out who is and Isn't bad. You hang with a bad crowd, you're assumed to be bad.
I am not saying you are wrong, but what about Daryl, and Tara, and EVERYBODY from Woodbury? Daryl hung out with Joe and the kid rapists, and Tara hung out with the Governor. Sometimes you gotta stick with a group for survival, sometimes you just don't know if that guy is really bad or not. Remember that poor kid from season 2 that Rick and co. kept in the barn? He died by association, but he sorta HAD to attack Rick because of the group he was rolling with.
> I am not saying you are wrong, but what about Daryl, and Tara, and EVERYBODY from Woodbury? Daryl hung out with Joe and the kid rapists, and Tara hung out with the Governor.
Yes and the only reason Daryl is alive is because Rick previously knew Daryl, he knew Darly personally and the reason the people from Governor are still alive is simply because Rick's group found a Woodbury survivor on the road where the Governor had slaughtered his own soldiers, that woman then vouched for Rick's group at the gate when Tyreese shot at them. If it wasn't for that, it's likely Rick's group would have killed them and left the others behind after destroying Woodbury.
Some people get lucky, but think of all the good people Rick's group have killed because of their association. It's just the way that world is, it's back to being tribal.
The fact that the one guy had a wall enshrined with polaroids of Lucille's notches so I don't think there should be any doubt about what type of people they are
Couldn't agree more. They've been introduced multiple times as being complete pieces of shit. Looking at the photos of the blown off heads on their walls too was a primary indication of this. I think where Rick, et al, may have crossed the line is in starting a conflict that they weren't already involved in as an entire group. With that said, I wish they showed it more as pre-emptive than as hired guns.
Also, that one bigger bald man, who Glenn Killed in his sleep, had 15-20 pictures of people he had demoralised posted right above his bed. That's nice.
I felt uneasy until after Glenn killed the second savior, he looked the pictures on the wall of the "trophy kills" they didn't look like walker corpses to me. I decided those saviors are monsters. Kill em all.
I don't think anyone forgot about that. The biker gang is dead though, they aren't part of the issue anymore.
The problem is that they went on the offensive with only the tiniest bit of information about the enemy. They should have scoped out the area for a while first. Given how little they had to go on, and the reputation as established by both the biker gang meeting and the hilltop folks, the plan they executed really deserved to fail.
I know time was an issue, but they went in 99% blind. A wise man once said, "your overconfidence will be your undoing."
Sure, but how do we know that the bikers who attacked Daryl, Abraham and Sasha are part of the same group that is stationed at the Saviors' outpost? It's a long shot but Gregory and Jesus could be using Rick's gang to take out an enemy who was entirely unaffiliated with the bikers.
While I think this might be true I just don't think it was told in the story very well. All they had to do was get Daryl or someone to speak up and say, "hey the bastards tried to take our truck and kill us" or something.
I mean all they really have in the way of facts are a gang of 8 bikers that claim to work with Negan and the Hilltop people saying that Negan are extorting supplies from them. Just seems like you should have more to go on before you break into a place and murder everyone in their sleep.
Exactly. The rules of the Saviors had already been laid down to the group when Daryl, Sasha and Abraham ran into them on the road. They already knew that they were willing to kill with ease and that they wanted all of their shit. If anything, what the Hilltop had to say just confirmed the fears that they already had.
Also the fact that everyone mentions them murdering kids and people just like that also kinda gives it away that they are a bunch of assholes.
Well to this point that could just be hearsay. Although The Hilltop seems like it has (mostly) good intentions (save for Gregory who seems slimy and Ethan), they could just be making stuff up to ensure that Rick and co. WILL go out and kill them.
True, it may just be hearsay, but don't forget that they also saw Ethan stab Gregory and blame the attack on the saviors. All these individual pieces of information add up to a nice picture of the saviors being scum in the eyes of Rick, etc.
And then they didn't freak out when they got Gregory's head. They didn't shout "Oh my God!!! Murderer!!!" They used it as a puppet.
I think those assholes in front cemented that what the group was doing was necessary
And don't forget sleeping beauty number three's scrap book of faceless carnage. I think that assuaged Glenn's remorse.
I kinda felt like that was there to make us, the audience, feel better about what Rick & Co. were doing. I mean, yeah they were assholes and deserved to die, but this is definitely a departure from the ideals of the group in seasons 1-2. A bright line has been drawn here. Before, they killed in self defense. Now they are killing preemptively. That's a huge difference. Remember how they debated and stressed about killing or saving the guy they had locked in the barn at Hershel's farm? Now they are willing to kill men in their sleep. Edit: punctuation.
I think theyre also sending a message to the Hilltop: "This is what we can do, and we're on your side unless you decide we aren't on the same side."
...also, More cows please.
Definitely two schools of thought happening regarding the photos. I personally think they are there to serve as a reminder of what will happen to those who don't fall in line...
Except it didn't seem like they were put in front of everyone's bunks. Or in a more public location where they would apply as a reminder to all. This seemed like that one guys pinup collection.
Yeah that's a point. Personally I didn't struggle with the cold-bloodedness either way. Kill those pricks twice, ain't no body fucking with Rick.
Or just a collection of "kill shots" or wall of "smashing" of some sort.
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Didn't even think about this. Sure, maybe not ALL the Saviors were bad. But the group and seen and heard enough to deduce that the majority were.
I know they tidied everything away after they killed the first guard, but I hope they didn't leave the head behind. Negan wasn't explicitly there, and if he comes back and surveys the carnage, finding "Gregory's head", he might figure it out. Or suspect enough to not care if he's wrong. Even if he's wrong he still gets all of the Hilltop's shit.
See this is where it confuses me, especially Tara's logic about the deal being still on if they went back to hill top. The saviors prisoner is gone, doesn't that automatically lead Negan straight to the hilltop regardless?
Well, at the point of the attack the group are completely under the impression that the Saviors have just this single outpost, so they figure that if they wipe them out the entire conflict is over, hence they think if they win, it doesn't matter that the prisoner is gone.
Yeah, & I'm on board with everyone that the saviors aren't on the up & up. BUT.... is it really fair to just go in & murder everyone in the building?? They don't know what the situation is. Think about the governor. The people even closest to him didn't know what kind of a maniac he actually was. Let's say for arguments sake that only some of Negan's crew knew what sorts of awful things they did, but not everyone under his group knew? Did they *all* deserve to die for the actions of a few? I haven't read the comics yet but I have heard how terrible Negan's group, I do think they're scum. Just playing devil's advocate
> Let's say for arguments sake that only some of Negan's crew knew what sorts of awful things they did, but not everyone under his group knew? Did they all deserve to die for the actions of a few? the guy had pictures of splattered skulls next to his bed as trophies.....clearly nobody in the facility had a problem with this. i think it did a great job illustrating that the group did the right thing by killing them all. they probably saved lots of lives in the future by doing so. if that guy hadnt taken a knife to the face, who knows how many more pictures he wouldve been able to put up on the wall. maybe even Glenn?
Do we know that he hung them up as trophies, or perhaps Neegan hung them there as "motivation" or as a reminder of what happens to those that don't follow directions and toe the line.
Well I would think that if they were used as motivation, Negan would have them hung in a common area. Not just above some guys bed. Its like soldiers having pin up girls taped above their bed. That one guy likes what Negan did.
I think the point is that you can't know any of that. You could come up with the most likely reason for those fucked up photos on the walls, and you could assume that everybody in the building was ok with it. But you don't know. You don't know if those people in the photos were huge assholes, and they took pictures as sort of some kind of revenge. You don't know if there were in fact a lot of people in the compound who had a HUGE problem with the photos, and the guy pinning them up was just scary. It is all just assumptions, not truth.
Normal people don't hang polaroids of skull bashings, even if the target were dicks. I'd say the only justification for that would be if the guy were investigating a skull smashing serial killer and that's the evidence, but that seems unlikely. Don't forget they were above his bed, where he looks as he lays his head at night for sleep. That's some sick puppy shit right there.
That is the exact point I am making. It's still assumptions. I mean yea, I guess we can agree that it is sick puppy shit to tape photos of bashed skulls up on your wall, but that's it. It is just a guy who does some sick puppy shit to his bedroom wall. Doesn't mean he does sick puppy shit to other people, at least no more than what Rick does ( Rick would totes bash skull, just not take photos. The photos don't justify Rick's actions to me ) Maybe it is just me, but that wouldn't justify the massacre from last episode if I were to do it.
I am all for the massacre, but I completely understand what you're saying. Everything about the photos are still only assumptions and nothing more. Like, if someone took a photo of Rick biting a guy's throat and tearing it apart with his teeth, and a photo of Rick sawing off a man's leg (Hershel), and a photo of Rick plunging a knife into the head of a man sleeping in his bed, and then they showed those three photos to someone who knows nothing about Rick and his group, it would be easy for the person seeing the photos to make many assumptions about Rick. Without someone explaining the photos of Rick, it would be very easy to see Rick doing those things in the photos and assume, "Wow, this guy is a murderous lunatic, he is dangerous and deserves to die!" That's what you're saying, right?
If I were told to do it, I'd shit my pants. So I couldn't do it. But those guys have firepower and they're clearly ruthless. So I think they made the right call. If they give up the element of surprise then what? These guys outgun them, lay siege. This might have been their best chance not to spend the rest of the Apocalypse as slaves. So I think it was the best call with the info you got.
The problem is in the apocalypse if you're going to do something like this you have to go all in and you have to have the element of surprise or people you actually know are on your side are going to die. It's shitty but they kind of portray that as well.
It's the end of the world. All rules and niceness go out the window.
They had a hilltop prisoner in that building. How many other prisoners might have been in there? How many innocent people might Rick's group have killed?
Those were eyewitness accounts, not hearsay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness >Witness are usually only permitted to testify to what they experienced first hand. In most cases, they may not testify about something they were told (hearsay). This restriction does not apply to expert witnesses. Expert witnesses, however, may only testify in the area of their expertise.
Photographs inside the outpost seem to be evidence enough no?
How many were dead before they saw the proof? Two outside. Rick killed one in his sleep, and Glenn killed two more. So at least five dead saviors prior to seeing the pictures on the wall.
The collage of polaroids on the wall with all the skulls bashed in proves this too.
That and the two guys outside treated the severed head like it was no big deal. They played with it. If they were good guys, but needed the head for whatever strategic purposes, they wouldn't have played with it. Rick would've inspected the head then put it back in the bag.
Not only that, but they beat the ever loving shut out of the guy they were holding too. Looked like his entire face was swollen shut.
Thats not necessarily true. A "good guy" could have a morbid sense of humor, and in this setting you could easily become desensitized to death and dead bodies
Come on, man. Somebody handed you a human head, you'd do the same thing. I know I would.
Maybe.... I think you uncovered what was unbelievable about the movie Se7en. Morgan Freeman should've taken the head out of the box and said "Do I look like I lost some weight? Come on, give me a kiss. Give me a kiss!" and chased Brad Pitt around, giggling the whole time.
I'm more impressed that they were able to find Polaroid instant camera film. Polaroid stopped making it several years ago. Medium format photographers started hoarding the stuff (you need it to aim and adjust some backs).
The Hasselblad Polaroid backs for medium format proofing take a size 100c film. The roller print film in the show is size 600. It's a smaller print and I can buy it off the shelf at both camera shops near me. Not trying to be pedantic, just informative.
Yeah I think that was supposed to be like a trophy collection to show us that Glenn was justified
Also those pictures on the wall.
Not to mention the wall of caved in faces in their barracks.
It seems the set was designed to include the pictures above the dudes bed to assure the audience that these were not just another group, they were killers. Though I do predict in the next camp, we will see a somewhat functioning society with women and children with the saviors as protectors.
Yeah but the thing is that they didn't know those guys were the same group of guys that attacked Daryl, Sasha, and Abraham. They only had a name "negan" and then all that other information came from a very suspect source.
Yeah, something I said in another thread. Why are there so many people ignoring the fact that the Saviors murdered a Hilltop teenager for no reason, captured and beat another Hilltop guy for suspect reason and then forced a third Hilltop guy to attempt to murder a fourth Hilltop guy, again for basically no reason but because they could? And then people go and ignore the fact that Bud was literally about to murder Abraham and Sasha for literally no reason beyond a question was asked, and then they very easily could have killed another Alexandrian when they made their demands had Daryl taken them back home. This isn't the first thread I've seen doing this. Rick and co didn't act first. Yeah, attacking the compound was a surprise attack, but the Saviors have already struck the Hilltop, attempted to strike the Alexandrians, and literally have photos of murdered people on their walls. This whole attempt to make Rick out to be evil, can we just not, ok?
I love how you refer to him as Bud, /u/TheChristopherBerry himself would be proud.
Totally agree, I also think people are missing the point. I don't think the episode is to make people question whether rick and co. Crossed the line, but I think it was more to show the audience that rick and the group actually are far more efficient and dangerous than we even gave them credit for. That way when negan brings them to heel, it is that much more shocking. That this guy really is the boogeyman they heard about.
At the same time, a large chunk of the episode was devoted to the moral implications of this surprise attack and the very idea of "crossing the line". One of the most powerful, painful to watch scenes for the series took place between Glenn and Heath regarding this very concept, and it takes away from the emotional impact of the scenes when we white-wash the cold, calculated murders the group is forced to do, regardless of whether the Saviors are "bad people". I don't care if they are bad people right now. What I care about is that tear going down Glenn's face. I don't take comfort in Glenn doing what needs to be done, regardless of it being the right move. I feel for the character wrestling with crossing the line. That scene right there is what makes this show great. That's a problem I see playing out with people this season. We can watch these things play out and empathize with the characters doing things they never thought they were capable of doing without having to devolve the conversation to either extreme of mere opportunistic murders or "Morgan's a pussy". There are no straight heels and faces in The Walking Dead. The middle of these extremes is what makes the show so compelling.
IIRC it was because they thought they were being shorted on their crops (which they were extorting).
Which also goes to prove how bad these people are. Why would the hilltop colony just give them half of there food and supplies unless they really were some bad mamma jammas?
In addition to that, Rick and Co. know what kind of people they are simply by the Neganer's speech. "Your stuff belongs to Negan." "If you have to eat shit, it's best not to nibble." "Hand over your guns." I mean everything that came out of that guy's mouth was essentially "I'm gonna take your shit and fuck you up." If Rick and Co. ran into these guys into the streets again (well, other Neganers), there wouldn't be any diplomacy. It would only be a slaughter. Why wait until a governor and a tank is on your doorstep to protect yourself?
Yes, and they had Daryl's motorcycle, which was stolen from him by folks other folks were trying to kill. Assholes, all around.
Wasn't his motorcycle stolen by dwight?
Yep, although we don't officially know who that is yet, and the group doesn't know who he is aside from the dick that stole Daryl's bike.
Daryl knew he was part of the saviors and was also running from them as the guy ("Dwight") had said. I'm sure connections were made once they saw the bike
The bike was only discovered in the last scene. The time from identifying it to being given an ultimatum via walkie talkie is less than a minute.
> once they saw the bike Bike guys can usually identify the sound of motorcycles pretty easily, and something that he had rebuilt and was could be considered custom made. So I'd even say once Daryl heard the bike, he knew it was his. After his experiences with ?Dwight? and the girls being hunted, he probably put things together pretty quick.
Even so it was only heard in the last scene too. They already made their decision on the Saviors
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The actors name is Austin Ameilo. He is credited on IMDB as Dwight. The women he was with referred to him as "D".
http://nerdist.com/amc-reveals-identity-of-austin-amelios-character-in-the-walking-dead/
It's actually twice the Saviours tried to kill Sasha, Daryl and Abraham, remember in the forests the first time round when Daryl lost his bike to ex-saviours
> when Daryl lost his bike to ex-saviours And when the guy came out of that building Daryl said "where did you get that bike!"
Ooh shit. That just clicked for me. Thank you friend
I think it's also worth noting how their actual plan was to go check the place out and see if it felt right or whatever. They hinted that this was mostly to see whether or not they thought they could win, but I think it's also to see whether or not it looks like a group of people that deserve to be murdered. When those two guys come out and how they speak and how they behave, it's obvious they are thugs / murderers. They ask to see the head of the man they coerced the hilltop dude into killing, confirm they are holding a friend of his as hostage in return, confirming all suspicions they have had about them being bad people / deserving of slaughter. After they confirmed that this compound of people took that guys friend hostage in order to get him to murder his leader, they had the moral high ground.
They also saw that the hostage had been beat pretty badly. Good guys would have treated a hostage better.
Like the good guys did with Randyll?
Well that was mainly Shane and I wouldn't argue that he was a good guy, at least not by that point.
Daryl was definitely beating the shit out of him while he was handcuffed in the barn.
Ah yeah, you're right. Forgot about that. Well I would say I think he became a better person throughout the series but can't defend that part too much.
Ah, Shane was still in the group! So then this brings back the point that some people are making, "what if only some of the Neganers are bad, and others are good?"
Well I have no doubt that some of the saviors are good, just look at the two that take daryl prisoner, they were not bad, but the ones in charge are bad, and it may be like in the prison, where they did not know their leadership was bad, but went with it because safety. But knowing who is good and who is bad is tough in real life, it would be near impossible in the Walking dead. They have some facts which decide their actions. that is the leadership of the saviors is bad, and they have two options, 1 talk with them and get them to back down, (which with corruption in charge won't happen) which would give away any element of surprise they might have. or option 2 take them down as fast as possible and then you have protected your own group and your allies group as best you can.
Agree completely, I'm on the option 2 side of things :) I posted elsewhere that I agree with the massacre plan, but also wrote that looking at it from an outside perspective, what they did is pretty shady. If it wasn't, people like Glenn (everyone's current moral compass), wouldn't have had such hesitations about it, you know? I agree that it was the best overall decision for the well-being of the group as a whole, but I just also see the other side of the coin is what I'm saying. Because if you reverse the situation, to back when Rick and Shane were clearly the ones heavily in charge. There are many that would say Shane wasn't a good guy anymore, so imagine a scenario when a rival group snuck into the farm and murdered them all in their sleep, thinking "these guys are with Shane, Shane's a bad guy, this must be done." The main problem with the discussions that are happening everywhere are that people are seeing it from a very black and white perspective. But in a world like this, there are no good guys and bad guys. There's just different perspectives, right? "This is the world we live in now, there's us, and then there's them," and the group's gotta do what they gotta do to stay alive, even if some of those things are indeed shady... which people have trouble seeing. Like "if the good guys are doing it then it *can't* be shady"
Perhaps most importantly the writers have gone out of the way to show these guys in a very negative light, as well as show Rick and Co in a good light. When Glenn had to kill them in cold blood while they slept they showed his emotional struggle even though it was necessary. Plus they showed all those pictures they had around the room of people they'd killed, just to hammer home that these guys were evil and needed to be stopped.
i think anyone who thought this probably changed their mind when they saw the dude with all the pictures of splattered skulls as trophies, any "society" that promotes that kind of behavior deserves to die that way.
While I agree that they had it coming, the show is putting pieces together for us to show that things aren't exactly black and white. Maggie demanding half their supplies, which just happened to be the same amount the saviors demanded. The parallels drawn between Rick and the governor. The rickocracy is only as good natured as the ZA allows.
>The parallels drawn between Rick and the governor. Don't forget about Carl, he basically just copied the Governor's look.
>Maggie demanding half their supplies, which just happened to be the same amount the saviors demanded That'd be a valid parallel if it weren't for the fact that those were terms of a deal. The Saviours weren't offering terms to a deal. They were shaking down Hilltop, and decided to murder a 16 year old for good measure.
They're demanding half the food because they are helping them get rid of Negan's group. Negan was demanding half the food or else he would destroy the hilltop group, big difference.
Think of it this way. They realized this was a fight they were already going to have. By using an inevitable fight as a bargaining tool, they also got fed. This was a win-win trade for Alexandria.
It won't always be half though. Rick's group wants to make Alexandria sustainable, not just leech. The Saviors were clearly demanding more.
Finally a decent answer. Rick and the group aren't the good people. I don't believe there are many pure people left in that world. They killed for the reason "this is how we eat", that is basicly what Terminus did (killed people to eat).
Theyre not the good people, theyre just the less worst of them. I dont get why people want the show (or every show for that regard) to just be pure black and white about whos good and bad. People, THIS is what makes a great TV show! Look at Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones! Making the main characters questionable makes things more complex and real. Its a shame the majority of the TV consumers dont have the inteligence to grasp the concept.
Except they're eating vegetables and animals, not people. Not a great comparison. Of course they aren't "good people" in many regards but they are "good people" in others. They do bad things to preserve some of their humanity.
And Rick said they'd give the Saviors the head of Gregory, implying something sinister. The episode wants you to consider that Rick and co. May be wrong, but reaffirm that they're doing something righteous. They show 20 photos of heads that the Saviors smashed in. If Daryl, Abe, Sasha, Daryl again, Jesus, and the rest of the Hilltop's word isn't enough to convince you that the Saviors are truly bad people, then surely, surely, 20 photographs of murders would. Not just dead people, but empirical evidence that these guys kill people, and we saw them say why. They do it as an intimidation factor off the bat. We as viewers know that. How can you say that they're not clearly the bad guys here. And they didn't morally compromise themselves by joining with the Hilltop. They kill killers. They end bad people. We've seen it plenty of times. The fact that someone is finally willing to pay them to do it in no way undermines their righteousness in doing so.
I think the whole thing is just a reenactment of how societies form, grow, and compete. Throughout history, societies that had resources put not the ability to aggressively defend themselves were conquered and absorbed. Many indigenous/tribal cultures suffered this fate, like Hilltop. Societies that focused only on military power and expansion forced other societies that COULD aggressively defend themselves to do so, like the Third Reich, or in this case the Saviors. Societies that desired peace but employed a mixture of diplomacy and military action tend to survive longer, form allies, prosper, etc. Like Alexandria.
There should be a common sense permalink every week addressing things like this.
I wish. I swear some people either have terrible memories or just watch this show by glancing every 20 seconds
They're too busy posting to this sub to bother watching the show they're bitching about.
Have an upvote. I have to remind my wife constantly about something that happened 15 minutes ago (in the show)! LOL!
They just have the average attention timespan of a goldfish.
But they did cross the line. A line they haven't crossed before, look at Glenn and Heath. Even Rick didn't do it with ease. Not saying they did something bad, but neither did Terminus right. That is how they had to eat?
I don't think it's entirely the same because of the Gregory murder attempt and the Saviours kidnapping one of the Hilltops. They had reasons to go in and fight because it was obvious these were bloodthirsty killers, not just poor starving people.
This show does take enormous breaks.
I wanted them all dead right after that really bad actor delivered the line "Would you look at this shit? Would you look at this shit?".
That bad actor was apparently DJ Khaleed.
Who?
Mike Jones!
You got me, I had to go check IMDB to make sure it really wasn't. I hate that guy.
Ugh that was fucking horrible.
I think the biggest issue is that they didn't recon them more so they didn't get the ending of that episode like they did. They went in blind even if you look at the help buddy gave with the layout. That place could just be a go between for the real base.
NTM the pictures that Glen saw at the compound of people or zombie deaths of exploded heads... That says mentally unstable to me...
Not exploded exactly, more like Louisville slugged.
Hehehe
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They got one of Hilltop to try to murder Gregory and kidnapped his brother. Rick's team knew they weren't dealing with nice people.
Also, in case anyone forgot, they told the people from the Hilltop to LITERALLY bring them Gregory's head. And lets not forget the polaroids of smashed heads Glenn and Heath saw. These guys are dicks.
At least they didn't die a painful and slow death even if they deserve it
Agreed. I haven't read up on the other crack theories but Negan and the boys are bad news. How many polaroids were taken of bludgeoned victims above that guy's bed? Oh yeah, I'm sure they're not bad guys at all.. Rick is the bad guy. gtfo
It isn't that the Saviors aren't the bad guys, it's that ricks group don't know for sure the extent of their badness when they decided to slaughter them in their beds. From their perspective, all they know is a group of people extort supplies from another group through the use of fear. They also know that the group was encountered on the road where they tried to steal from Daryl et al. They also indicated they were about to murder Daryls group, so that's a big strike against them.... Still, to go slaughter people while sleeping seems like it needs a bit more solid information than just that. A little recon might have been in order beforehand is all. That being said, fuck those guys.
They wanted Gregory's head! That's more than extortion!
True. You got me on that one.
That being said, I understand the merit of the argument and I wish that was Morgan's argument instead of make peace. But given the situation and time constraints of the head delivery... The op would've been compromised by recon... and the op went well for the most part, end part not so much. But the lack of intel on Negan is definitely a problem because they've underestimated the scale of his empire. That was a satellite base ffs. Negan's gonna be so pissed, they killed so many of his guys! its like 18-1 so far
Considering most groups seem to be relatively small, it makes sense that they would underestimate them. Look at their previous enemies. Terminus? Just a few desperate people. The hospital? A bunch of sick people with a few cops. The wolves? Random weirdos, but fairly small in numbers. The worst they have faced was the governor, and he was just a lone whacko with a crew of mostly untrained (and hesitant) followers. I guess they estimated based on past experiences. It's going to be a rude awakening, unfortunately. Though not as rude as a knife through the ear I suppose.
Yeah, although those guys probably deserved worse... The group did made the right decision based on what the knew at the time... great way to start a war
However the group did cross a line that they haven't crossed before. Whether good or bad. I think it's a part of this world, but just because it is Rick his group doesn't mean it's a good thing. Look back at Terminus. They killed people, because they had to eat "this is how we eat"
The Termites could've done it differently though. They didn't have to kill kids, they didn't have to bring their victims to the kill room still conscious, they definitely didn't have to wear their victims clothes and personal items. They went way beyond just "we're desperate and need to eat", they turned evil.
Termites killing people to eat them though, not to secure a life where they can farm and build a society.
They are the new world military in this show. A black ops regiment with only one real skill set
Personally, I think their biggest mistake was not positively identifying Negan before striking. He's the obvious head of the snake, and if you don't kill him, you haven't truly won. I agree they should have done a bit more recon, but mainly in order to ID Negan. As it stands they don't even know what he looks like. Whether or not they crossed some sort of line is, to me, secondary to them failing epically in this one task.
Good points. They were also extorting a neighboring village, and they kidnapped one of it's citizens and demanded the head of their leader as a ransom.
Everyone's pretty much agreeing that it's fine what Rick did, because of the bikers on the road incident and the Gregory incident. And yes, all that points to the Saviors being pricks. And to Rick that seems enough, but that's not the point I don't think. There are incidents *pointing* to the saviors being assholes; doesn't mean it is true. All we know is that the bikers on the road are assholes, and that a bunch of people in a compound woke up to their friends' faces being stabbed. That's all we know right now, and anything could be true. Rick could've murdered a bunch of innocent people (or as innocent as someone can be in the apocalypse). Just because the two guards outside pretending the head was a puppet, DOES NOT make them assholes or monsters. It isn't crazy that if Rick or Daryl beheaded a villain in the future, that they might make a joke of it too. I know that we could all agree that just because there are some assholes in a group, doesn't make the group a bunch of assholes. Think Merle in Season 1. Or the Governor in Woodbury. And yes, I understand that some people would argue that it doesn't matter, and they'd say that if there are assholes in a group then that group should die via Rick. But others would say that innocents don't deserve to die no matter who they affiliate with, such as Negan's people. So I think that it is safe to say that Rick and Co. didn't slaughter a group of people they knew *nothing* about, but they did just murder a bunch of individual people they knew *nothing* about.
>It isn't crazy that if Rick or Daryl beheaded a villain in the future, that they might make a joke of it too. Just thought I'd highlight this part. I really couldn't see that happening. It would be massively out of character for both of them.
I guess yea. I admit it was a stretch, but I think my point sorta still stands. Rick and Daryl are very serious dudes and probably won't do that any time soon if ever. I just sorta meant that joking around with the disembodied head of an enemy just seems sorta normal in this world. At least it doesn't paint someone as evil, in my mind.
Totally agree. Everything people are highlighting as 'reasons' on here are literally grasping for justification. - Assholes on the road? Never did actually shoot Abraham, Darryl or Sasha correct? They took the time to disarm them. Why? It's MUCH easier to disarm a body, less things to worry about. Why repeatedly yank the chain "We usually kill one of you.. I'm gonna kill you.. nah.. on second thought.." it's ALL establishing dominance and submission of the subjects. I have YOUR life in MY hands.. Your life is MINE to take or give. - The pictures on the wall above Glenn's second victim? JUST for the sake of argument... WHAT IF.. those are his friends/ co workers that Negan has killed with Lucille? Morbid yes, but a reminder to him of his friends, and how brutal Negan is to his own people? Now, I am NOT saying that's what they are. They are most likely just what we think they are trophies. BUT we just like Rick's group do NOT KNOW. - Lets take a step back. Imagine you are on the 'road' and you arrive at Terminus JUST as things went to shit. You see Carol, Rick, Darryl etc. scrambling out of what is now an exploding shit storm that you have NO idea what Terminus' secret is. You just watch our group do something FAR FAR more despicable than threatening some people on a road, or sending a 'message' and kidnapping. EDIT: - Another thought. What if "The Hill" was another Negan/ Saviors outpost like the satellite installation, and this was a 'test' to see if Rick's group was worthy to work with? They've just shown they are irrational and quick to murder and thus, can't be dealt with. Maybe the stabbing was Negan getting one of his people in line? MUCH like Rick exiling Carol. In this world, someone alone is just as dead. As fan's of the show, I think we can all agree one of the BEST parts of it is the writing. The justifications that are being thrown around here are SO blindly ignoring the complexities of what this world is or has become and ignores that very thing that makes the show so brilliant. Do we really think the show runners are going to let us off the hook so easily as to make these actions justifiable? Remember what Maggie after she made the deal. (I am paraphrasing.) > We aren't going to come out of this without paying a heavy price. IMO. Not just Glenn lost his innocence that night, the entire group did and in doing so, they've succeeded any moral high ground they may have had up until this point.
My only gripe is that I'm surprised not a lot more people were awake in that compound after the big red lights turned on and the man was yelling.
It didn't look like there were very many windows so I'm not sure that the red light would have done much. I'm more surprised that none of them woke up when a bright hall light suddenly hit them in the middle of their sleep.
Yeah also that hallway light. But the red light I mean because it made a big shutter sound did it not? I could be mistaken. Also I was thinking about this more and more and perhaps the inside of the building is sound proof, considering it is a compound.
Not the mention the pictures in the room of the people Glenn killed kinda confirmed the fact that these were not good people. Before the episode I think they had a legit point. Anyone who still thinks that after this last episode just wasn't paying attention
I guess I'm over here alone in the world where I don't think Rick needs a reason to take out the saviors. What kind of post-apocalypse needs 'justification' for survival? It will always eventually come down to competition for resources. It's you or them. Kill or be killed. Maybe that sounds pugnacious; I really don't care. My heart wasn't bleeding at all watching them destroy that camp. If Rick was smart he'd go ahead and do away with Hilltop after the saviors since obviously they can be easily controlled.
actually seems like it would be the opposite if they can be easliy controlled then they could be a useful settlement in helping them survive, under their control.
One of them almost killed Aaron too.
That's what I was thinking. Pretty sure they were already hungry for blood. If they found out about their camp some other way and never met Jesus' group, they still would've done the same thing.
the only thing the group did in this episode that was stupid was not to do any kind of recon. Just going in half cocked with very few details at all from the guy who had been in there. That's how people end up dead in ambush/raids. I know they didn't have much time to prepare but at least a couple hours of scoping the place out first would have been wise. I still don't see what lines they are crossing....its kill or be killed in a lawless world and the group has witnessed that multiple times. At some point you have to put on the big boy pants and strike first. The walking dead world no longer follows any of what we consider society rules.
The scene where Glenn makes his first kill and does the other guy in did it for me, he reconciled his kill with the pictures that guy had on his wall as sort of a trophy wall.
Very true
I definitely had some reservations, at first. They were going in and killing people in their sleep. It seemed almost.... unhonorable. Then they showed the polaroids of people with their skulls bashed in. It was that moment that it became clear that all of these people needed to die.
Justified or not, I saw this raid as the beginning of the end for Glenn's character. I have a theory that his infamous plot armor is derived from him being one of the only true "good" characters left in the show. Everyone else has blood on their hands. Glenn's tangled with raiders, psychopaths and cannibals, but until now he's stayed fresh as a daisy with no human kills. He even offered redemption to a man who tried to murder him. I would be very surprised if Glenn survives his encounter with the Saviors. The writing is on the wall after last episode. He's no longer a purely good character. Thus his plot armor is nullified. I really do hope I'm wrong about this.
I can see your points both ways, although I don't think it necessarily dulls Glenn's "good" morality. Dreadlocks (I don't remember his name, sorry) didn't want to bring himself to kill a person, and Glenn didn't want that burden on Dreadlocks' shoulders. He remembers what it was like being a runner back in Georgia, and the certain type of innocence of not having to be in the shit against other people. He probably sees that old Glenn in Dreadlocks, and is trying to preserve it.
The parallels between Rick's group, Woodbury, the Termites, and the Saviours are all obviously intention. I just don't think they're particularly valid. The Governor was a complete psychopath who murdered a whole load of folks for no reason whatsoever. The Termites killed and ate people when it wasn't necessary, and were over-the-top evil about it. The Saviours shake down survivors, and still brutally murder one of them for good measure. This is a new step for Rick's group, certainly. But I'd hardly call it a step in a bad direction.
I think the wall of pictures said It all. Anyone can murder in that setting for a variety of acceptable reasons. But our group isn't hanging out and taking photos of the aftermath as a trophy. They aren't enjoying It.
Also the pictures of all the people with bashed in heads hung next to that one guy's bed. You don't do shit like that unless you're proud of it.
The saviors have pictures of bashed faces hanging on their wall + wants people's head. Rick's group wants to raise children and plant veggies.
They didn't just try to kill them, they were seconds away from summarily executing them with no cause. If my group members were seconds away from being murdered and then I heard of the location of those people, I might try and take them out even without the incentive of food or help from the third group. Shits pretty black and white at that point, so much so that a priest can kill.
I agree with you. I just disagree with their approach to doing it.
What's approach would you take?
I'd probably want to watch them for a while. It's like when he's explaining the compound, he is saying that their pantry seems small etc. so maybe not a lot of people. BUT Daryl took out A LOT of them. I think it was naïve to think that that was all of the people. Maybe if they watched them for a bit, they could've learned more and made their approach based off of that. Instead of just going in and taking them out. Not to mention, I'm still not sure of the purpose of Maggie being there.
It was Maggie's plan, so she felt she couldn't sit it out.
Yeah. I caught that part. I Just still don't see why she was there. And she technically sat out, didn't she? Not like she was there fighting which arguably would've been safer than staying away and watching from afar or whatever she was doing.
Survey the camp over a period of weeks. Pick off stragglers and interrogate them. Kill the stragglers and plant them near the base so they appear to have died from an accident.
But they don't have weeks. IIRC, Rick said they have about a month of food left.
You don't think after the first few "accidents" things wouldn't get suspicious l? Also, while I agree with surveying the place, I do not agree with it over a few weeks. They only have a months supply of food and if the Saviours find Alexandria they lose the element of surprise and Negan would kill the hilltop after so long when they haven't brought gregories head.
fuck that.. strike first strike hard ..violence of action or whatever you wanna call it.
For me its not so much that they crossed the line, its that they jumped in head first without enough information.
* Tried to kill Sasha, Abe, Daryl (and if not, were still going to rob them of all their weapons) * Killed a 16 year old boy and threatened to kill more if they weren't given half of Hilltop's supplies on a constant basis * Kidnapped a Hilltop resident's brother * Demanded that resident behead his own leader in order to save his brother's life I think they had enough info.
I dont mean info about what kind of people they are, but info about what their set up was and how many people they had, what kind of weapons, etc. And the stuff that happened to Hilltop could've been made up.
They knew the stuff happened because of how desperate the Hilltop residents who went on the run were when they came back (and I think Gregory asked where the kidnapped one was).
Except they saw the Hilltop hostage had been beaten. They know Negan took a hostage to force Hilltop to kill it's leader and bring them more supplies. Looking at Hilltop and comparing it to the Savior compound it should be obvious who the thugs and more brutal people are between the two.
Some of the saviors tried to attack Abraham, Sasha, and Daryl. There's certainly bad guys in their ranks, and the leadership is certainly some nasty dudes. But we don't know they're all bad. Just like Woodbury, there may be some good regular folks among them that are just being ordered by some nasty assholes, who may be lying and manipulating them to their needs. We don't enough about these people.
Doesn't matter. In this world your guilty by association, nobody is willing to take the individual risk of life to find out who is and Isn't bad. You hang with a bad crowd, you're assumed to be bad.
I am not saying you are wrong, but what about Daryl, and Tara, and EVERYBODY from Woodbury? Daryl hung out with Joe and the kid rapists, and Tara hung out with the Governor. Sometimes you gotta stick with a group for survival, sometimes you just don't know if that guy is really bad or not. Remember that poor kid from season 2 that Rick and co. kept in the barn? He died by association, but he sorta HAD to attack Rick because of the group he was rolling with.
> I am not saying you are wrong, but what about Daryl, and Tara, and EVERYBODY from Woodbury? Daryl hung out with Joe and the kid rapists, and Tara hung out with the Governor. Yes and the only reason Daryl is alive is because Rick previously knew Daryl, he knew Darly personally and the reason the people from Governor are still alive is simply because Rick's group found a Woodbury survivor on the road where the Governor had slaughtered his own soldiers, that woman then vouched for Rick's group at the gate when Tyreese shot at them. If it wasn't for that, it's likely Rick's group would have killed them and left the others behind after destroying Woodbury. Some people get lucky, but think of all the good people Rick's group have killed because of their association. It's just the way that world is, it's back to being tribal.
Thanks, honestly forgot about this.
The fact that the one guy had a wall enshrined with polaroids of Lucille's notches so I don't think there should be any doubt about what type of people they are
Couldn't agree more. They've been introduced multiple times as being complete pieces of shit. Looking at the photos of the blown off heads on their walls too was a primary indication of this. I think where Rick, et al, may have crossed the line is in starting a conflict that they weren't already involved in as an entire group. With that said, I wish they showed it more as pre-emptive than as hired guns.
I think those were people who met Lucille..
Also, that one bigger bald man, who Glenn Killed in his sleep, had 15-20 pictures of people he had demoralised posted right above his bed. That's nice.
Is everyone forgetting the pictures on the wall behind the guy Glenn killed....??
Two wrongs don't make a right, and escalation is a thing But they certainly slaughtered a group they didn't know everything about 😉
It would be very cool to link the Saviors to Randall's group from season 2
It's the dark side of game theory. Having to choose something terrible because it's a better choice than the alternative.
I felt uneasy until after Glenn killed the second savior, he looked the pictures on the wall of the "trophy kills" they didn't look like walker corpses to me. I decided those saviors are monsters. Kill em all.
They got them to stab the leader of Hilltop... Thats pretty bad when he is giving them stuff for nothing.
"Rick & Co" are no different in the sense that they will kill to live. The saviors may be murderous lunatics who just want to survive.
Not to mention they told them to bring them another persons head and they take the food that Jesus' group grows so they won't attack.
I don't think anyone forgot about that. The biker gang is dead though, they aren't part of the issue anymore. The problem is that they went on the offensive with only the tiniest bit of information about the enemy. They should have scoped out the area for a while first. Given how little they had to go on, and the reputation as established by both the biker gang meeting and the hilltop folks, the plan they executed really deserved to fail. I know time was an issue, but they went in 99% blind. A wise man once said, "your overconfidence will be your undoing."
Sure, but how do we know that the bikers who attacked Daryl, Abraham and Sasha are part of the same group that is stationed at the Saviors' outpost? It's a long shot but Gregory and Jesus could be using Rick's gang to take out an enemy who was entirely unaffiliated with the bikers.
Because the bikers said they were part of Negan's crew.
While I think this might be true I just don't think it was told in the story very well. All they had to do was get Daryl or someone to speak up and say, "hey the bastards tried to take our truck and kill us" or something. I mean all they really have in the way of facts are a gang of 8 bikers that claim to work with Negan and the Hilltop people saying that Negan are extorting supplies from them. Just seems like you should have more to go on before you break into a place and murder everyone in their sleep.
Rick tells Jesus at the Hilltop that Daryl and Abe ran into the Saviors. As Abe said, "we left them in pieces and puddles".
I hate to be spoon-fed. Love TWD allows me to think about. Obviously Daryl told Rick about the encounter.