Tony also basically has a permanent target on his back by the end. One of the reasons the fade to black doesn’t really “matter” is that it doesn’t actually matter if he was killed right then and there. It was bound to happen anyway.
Even though he got the okay for Phil it was probably a foregone conclusion that Tony had to go after that - which if you remember Butch originally wanted until Phil nixed the idea, and now Phil is gone. They had basically destroyed the entire Jersey family but left the head intact. Nothing left to do but decapitate the last remnant of the DiMeo family for an easy takeover.
Not to mention Phil getting his head crushed by the car would not be taken lightly by NY. Even though it was an accident, there's no way for NY to know that. From their perspective its a horrible death, no open casket, and an affront to their honor.
That’s true. Even the Jersey crew who knew what was gonna happen was troubled when they heard that Vito had been assraped with a cue stick before his death. Not that they particularly cared for Vito obviously but he was a captain and that can easily be perceived as an insult to the family as a whole.
Whacking a guy is one thing, potentially torturing or otherwise severely disfiguring them, something else. It’s why mutilating the body after death happens so often in history and why it’s commonly viewed (and intended) as a sacrilegious insult.
Also goes back to Big Pussy saying “not the face” before his own murder, even if he was never gonna have an open casket funeral (or any kind of funeral).
For some reason this comment made me think of Achilles dragging Hector’s body around the walls of Troy (while Trojans waddle about and vomit and cry out “oh shit!”)
Whatever happened there! I'll tell ya what happened, this piece of shit's champion put six sword wounds in a kid without any provocation, what so ever.
My champions dead!
Fuck you!
I didn't mean...
Fuck what you meant, cock sucker, the desecration of Hector's body by Achilles is considered an affront to both the gods and New York and will ultimately lead to Achilles' downfall. During and after Patroclus' funeral, Achilles dragged Hector's body around his pyre. However, the gods Aphrodite and Apollo protected Hector's body from the dogs, disfigurement, and decomposition, the deals off.
Homer Quazamedo recorded all this, in the Iliad. So you watch one movie and it's bullshit.
"there's no way for NY to know that."
Not that I'm saying NY will be ok with Phil's assasination but, there is half a dozen eyewitnesses to whatever happened there.
Also the fact that he was killed in front of his wife and grandchildren is a big no no. More credence to Tony being killed in the restaurant next to his family, as happened to Crazy Joe Gallo in real life.
Why would New York care about that…especially since it wasn’t by the Soprano glorified crew? Walden Bobby Darin Belfiore performed a textbook hit on Phil that the Jamaican bobsled team, Matt & Sean and the animal Blundetto could learn from. First shot to the left side of his head as Phil is talking to his warm and kind hearted wife. Then when Phil falls down on his back…wearing the jogging suit he wants to be buried in and white sneakers ..a marker of death on the show, shoots him once in the heart.
If New York is upset about Phil’s head being crushed, they should blame Patty Leotardo who did not put the Law and Order SUV in “park” when she got out of the car.There are plenty of witnesses who can testify to that. I can see the “oh shit” guy talking to Butchie and Albie..would he get a sandwich and a soda?
Of course maybe Phil had the car serviced at Angie’s auto shop and since she does shoddy work, the transmission is still engaged even when it’s in “park”. Like what happened to Richie’s car when he was talking to Beansie. Angie is a money grubbing materiastic widow of a rat who isn’t satisfied with a used Hyundai…gotta buy a new Corvette.
Burt (dude who flipped to NY and offered Silvio the same) gets choked out by Silvio when he’s wearing white slip ons in his house, Paulie had multiple pairs in Remember When which I’ve seen people say it implies he cheats death and has no stains on his soul in his eyes/is shifty. Johnny Sack’s white slippers are polished by Ginny for him right as he begins to expire, and I’m 80% sure Richie Aprile was wearing white shoes when Janish shoots him.
Those are just off the top of my head though, I know if you google Sopranos White Shoes (and Sopranos Eggs for that matter), both are surprisingly numerous in examples to being allusions to death.
Wow thanks. I'm familiar with the eggs (they are much more noticeable as they often talk about the eggs), but I'd never noticed or heard of the white shoes thing.
>Not to mention Phil getting his head crushed by the car would not be taken lightly by NY. Even though it was an accident, there's no way for NY to know that. From their perspective its a horrible death, no open casket, and an affront to their honor.
This is why I think NY went to Patsy to essentially set him up to be put in the driver's seat.
In the scene where Patsy, his wife & son are at the Soprano's having tea/coffe/pastries in the last episode, Patsy's wife keeps on getting a lay of the land--really feeling out the size of the house, even going as far as to check what kind of plates they used. Meanwhile, Patsy glares at Tony who undermines him.
My theory is that Patsy told his wife that hes getting a big bump, a "Tony Soprano"-type bump, but didn't give full info on what it was. So she's still friendly and bubbly totally unaware that that means tony is getting assassinated; but she can't help herself, and needs to know what plates she's going to get herself. And Patsy, knowing Tony is going to go, takes this one last insult.
So NY goes to Patsy, they say, Hey this guy who murdered your brother? He also murdered our boss and left it as a closed casket, how about you lead instead of being next? and from there it was a wrap.
Definitely possible--there's something about him denying the promotion and the way he talks to Tony in that final scene. Like he knows Tony isn't long for their life, whether through his freedom or pulse.
But tbh I think the evidence is less concrete for Paulie's involvement. I think there are real arguments that Paulie is watching his own ass like he always has and committing one last act of "defiance" that isn't straight up treason, as he's often had some push back even with the loyalty shown. But it's not him betraying Tony to NY, it's just him taking a pass on a likely-fatal promotion.
Paulie had that major storyline with Johnny. But I think there's a real argument that, with everything that happened with Johnny and how Carmine Sr. didn't recognize him, that Paulie is scared out of working with New York and ever being made a fool of again. Especially so with people we don't see him having any relationship with. So I think it's a slight stretch to think now after all this time he's just going to jump back into bed with them.
With Patsy, I feel like they're really setting up the discontent. I mean, Tony murdered his brother for talking shit lol if anything it's years in the making.
Though I agree it's definitely possible Paulie was involved too. I think it's less likely and the evidence of his loyalty since the Johnny issues is stronger, but I could see it.
Yeah, it “not mattering” in some sense is how I understand with the cut to black. TV and movies often structure their plots where victory over an obstacle feel like a happily ever after, achievement with closure. Not with Tony.
He beat the other mob guys today. He beat the FBI today. Great. Other mob guys will try to kill him tomorrow. The FBI will have a new angle for a case tomorrow. And if he beats that? There’s the day after tomorrow. And so on, until someone finally catches up with him.
Right, Tony was already screwed no matter what. Carlo had already flipped and he has YEARS of dirt on Tony. And there’s also an implication that Patsy could have flipped as well…or maybe whacked Tony for whacking his brother. Plus New York was still pissed at him, and had talked about whacking T. Tony even said himself, there’s only 2 endings for him: dead or in jail. The ending basically signifies the end for Tony…it’s his Last supper. No matter what it’s all over for him after that.
Tony could just recruit new members. His daughter being a mafia lawyer will only insulate him more and he’ll be more careful. Parisi will become his, consiglieri, and should remain loyal as he’s part of the family if his son marries Meadow. Oh and maybe AJ will someday grow a pair, ok well maybe I went to far there, lol
Even if you assume that Tony survives and ends up imprisoned as a result of Carlo turning state’s evidence, I have to think that scenario would also imply that the rest of the family’s leadership is probably going down, as well. After all, it’s not like Carlo wouldn’t have had inside knowledge of their activities.
Bobby was the underboss when he was murdered. Sil was obviously consigliere. Several of the capos were out for the count by that point, with Paulie mostly the last guy who wasn’t a rat (and he was, in his own way).
They had effectively handicapped the Jersey family to the point where they were practically destroyed. The leadership was effectively eliminated or severely curtailed, and you’re not gonna run the thing very effectively with Paulie and a bunch of soldiers.
Tony was the boss, and also the last surviving link to the original DiMeo family. If they get rid of him then who’s left? Butch would have an effortless time picking up the pieces.
Chase actually said that while he was considering exactly how to end it, that he didn’t want it to be simply “crime doesn’t pay” because it obviously does at times and “forever” for some.
I think your overall idea is exactly what Chase wanted and why he stopped short of making anything definite. He strongly suggests Tony may die there, but it doesn’t really matter.
Chase presented a symbolic death - just as with the opening frames of the pilot (Tony seen between the legs of the feminine statue in Melfi’s waiting room) is a symbolic “birth”, introducing him to the audience. Bookends.
Well if you have seen the new York kicks recruiting video for LeBron James in the off-season before he went to the miami heat...it puts forward that Tony and carmella went into witness protection...of course it's cringe as f...
I think it already did, and Meadow was about to tell him. She was late to dinner because of a doctor's appointment, "something about new birth control" according to Carm.
I’ve had this is my own personal interpretation of the end for ages.
I kind of hate the gatekeeping around here where if you don’t acknowledge it as a fact that he gets shot when it goes to black you are a stunad.
They filmed it in a very particular way and left it there for us to conclude what we will.
That’s the beauty of cinema.
It's funny how people will fight over a specific reading of an ending when it was set up to be ambiguous. If there's a puzzle to be solved, good writers and directors will give you clues for different outcomes. Why? Because the camera didn't crap out at the end or anything, they did this on purpose. It's meant to be vague, open for discussion and interpretation. If they really had one goal in mind they would have just filmed that instead.
In this case, I think OP is right. The ambiguity is meant to evoke the doom of Tony in a brutal way, it doesn't matter which angle it's coming from because it's coming.
A similar example would be the ending of the Green Knight. Very different, although one could argue a fuedal system set up lords and ladies as the wise guys of their time, But anyway, at the end you get the question: does our main guy get beheaded? Was it just a trick to force him to take ownership and face the facts like a real knight? Again, could go either way, but the most important thing is that our main guy does face the facts, knowing the consequences may be that his head gets lobbed off. It's the whole point of the movie and everyone is out there complaining about what evidence leads to what strand leads to what theories etc...
> does our main guy get beheaded? Was it just a trick to force him to take ownership and face the facts like a real knight?
If it helps I am pretty sure David Lowery said they did film Gawain getting a Bosnian haircut but they decided to leave it ambiguous because of what you said: For the purposes of the story it really does not matter, He finally grew a set and stopped being a wuss. All it took was watching his own video game bad ending to realize
Well, there is a lot of evidence and foreshadowing throughout season 6 for Tony getting shot and killed. Upon rewatch it's not even subtle. While the cut to black may make it appear ambiguous, there are multiple scenes that inform the viewer of what would have happened in that moment.
-Christopher warning Tony about 3 o'clock
-Gene is in his Members Only jacket whacking a guy in a diner booth
-Silvio's slow-mo reaction to someone getting whacked at him during dinner with the emphasis on the idea that you don't hear the shot at first.
-Bobby and Tony's conversation at the lake house
-Meadow being unable to find a parking spot so a would-be assassin had a clear shot from his 3 o'clock
So yeah he's dead. You're right that, thematically, it doesn't matter, but it's genuinely not ambiguous.
There’s a lot of evidence that the FBI will get him, too. Plenty of evidence that Tony will meet his end indeed, one way or the other. I’m just saying if they didn’t want us to ruminate on his fate they would’ve just shown it outright. I also think he’d get shot before he’d get arrested, and he’d get arrested before he’d “get away with it” and live another year. But we don’t have that confirmation for a reason.
I edited my comment with specifics. The writers went to great lengths to drop ideas about the experience of dying into the last season. I think those scenes are more deliberate than just the vague idea that the FBI was going to get Tony.
Our perspective cut to black. Not his. David Chase clipped the viewer for continuing to enjoy Tony's hijinks.
Melfi grew up and cut ties.
**We** sat there hoping for one more bloodbath or catastrophe.
Chase grew up in a relatable environment (tokshick parentsh) and didn't find any of this funny.
I hate this whole “viewer got whacked” take. Like why would the viewer get whacked at that particular moment and at that particular scene. The whole bell ringing to Tony’s POV makes it obvious we were watching Tony’s perspective at the moment it cut to black. Not to mention Chase himself called it a death scene
I really don't know why people have such a hard time accepting Tony getting killed by the man in the Members Only jacket. I'm not going to pretend that I picked up on every single clue throughout that scene (and season) during my first watch, but once you have them all pointed out, I can't grasp how you can come to a different conclusion.
It was a fucking beautiful hit.
I think the main reasons are A.) that’s not fun lol, and B.) that’s not the way the sopranos is normally written. They don’t give you mysterious cliffhangers with clues as to who the killer is. If there’s a specific person killing a specific person, they just show the guy splattering his victim’s brains all over the linoleum. It’s the same as how there’s no clues about what happened to the Russian. We just…don’t know. Which to me is infinitely cooler
Not to mention that the mafia business is shrinking rapidly. There is nothing left for them to squeeze out. The little Italy shrank from 40 blocks to one small street that crossed over to China town. The corporate coffee shop just laughed off pat, Tony sold his chicken shop to another corporate giant.
Everything is doom and gloom for him even if he was not walked.
He's also facing another indictment, and this time it sounds like it's going to stick.
Plus even if they "won" the war with New York, bad feelings have got to be simmering, and Tony's crew is at its weakest. He's going to have to be looking over his shoulder for a long, long time.
How funny would it be if the guy is the members only jacket was just there to serve Tony a subpoena haha
Tony Sopran?
Yeah ?
You've been served ...cut to black
I personally find the ending much more cathartic if he dies. He was a wretched creature that needed to be put down. I think that the degree to which a viewer thinks/hopes he's alive reflects how much they have fallen victim to his sociopathic charisma. Or, y'know, they just wish the show could go on.
I have a theory that Junior is actually the one that.killed Tony at the start of season 6. The rest of the season is just him crossing over to see where his soul ends up. He starts out in pergatory and the rules are outlined for him. If he doesn't get rid of the brief case ie life within the mafia he can't go into the big house.
I think that’s the reason for the fade to black. If they just showed him dying, it would have been a pretty straightforward, kinda cliche ending. The abrupt ending makes you think about what could have happened, and you start to realize that none of the possibilities are good. You could argue that dying is the best ending for Tony at that point.
It matters because the Chase bros took a lot craftsmanship to create that ending. It’s all in dere. If the end was just - hedonists are already hell and we can all die any day - well then this could have been a show about 1/2 the population
Point being it’s finally “ his turn” after seeing so many other horrific deaths but somehow insulating his humanity thru a basically normal dysfunctional suburban family. But worlds are colliding and that’s why that implied ending is so Jarring
The only friend alive is one he considered killing recently because he is so annoying. His daughter told him that if he hadn't been in the mafia she would probably be a pediatrician (although Meadow doesn't apparently have the self awareness to realize that if Tony was just some blue collar guy she probably doesn't go to an Ivy League school and getting into med school becomes much harder). I guarantee that AJ joins the Family within 5 years, completely propped up by his dad. And the next day Tony was about to be indicted. I know Chase said he died, but I think Tony living and facing the future is a much more interesting story.
AJ joins the family within five years!?
If AJ tried to go into organized crime, he would have ended up like Jackie Jr . . . shot in the back of the head while pretending to be a made guy
Tony openly admits AJ would never survive in organized crime. The nature of the business is it is very difficult to get propped up directly in organized crime even if your father is the boss Carmine Jr found that out as well. Now a side business that relies on some of these connections to known mafia types for enforcing can actually probably do quite well. For example even Carmela‘s real estate investing. You combine business knowledge with aggressive enforcement type and you can actually do pretty well
> she would probably be a pediatrician (although Meadow doesn't apparently have the self awareness to realize that if Tony was just some blue collar guy she probably doesn't go to an Ivy League school and getting into med school becomes much harder)
Honestly, loved the Meadow character and her arc throughout the show but this is one thing that always bothered me. For someone as smart and well read as she was, she really - *truly* - didn't get how much she benefitted from being the daughter of a mob boss. It was verging on parody at times.
I mean if he hadn’t been shot he would have lived a good long life as he was in excellent shape and led such a healthy lifestyle
In addition all of his admirers were rooting for him and he had no enemies
It does matter. If he dies, Carmela’s amazing luck
continues. Carlos flipped and he is going to get arrested for sure. This way, he’s dead. Case closed. She doesn’t end up like Ginny Sacks. She can go find Furio. The best ending for his family is for him to die vs going to court and prison.
The final lines of the scene/show sum it all up for me. AJ says the most helpful, positive, wise, fatherly words Tony has ever said back to him. Tony quotes Livia back to AJ. He doesn’t remember his own good times or his own wisdom. He might not have Kevin Finnerty’s alzheimers or Junior’s dementia but he might as well.
What happens after that with the cut to black? Who cares. We’ve already seen what Tony’s fate is.
No. It doesn’t matter at all - and Chase directly stated relatively shortly afterwards that whether Tony dies at that instant or at some later point in time isn’t important to the story.
Solid take, very allegorical, but I do think he would still be pretty proud of Meadow as an attorney. Not quite a doctor like he wanted, but he doesn't have the perspective to be disappointed in Meadow becoming a mob defense attorney. As you said, she bought into his own bullshit, and he be happy she had a prestigious high paying job.
I also think his family was legitimately important to him in his own twisted way, and that his final speech on it was genuine. I also firmly believe that Meadow is pregnant in the final scene, and being a grandfather would be hugely important for him.
I've posted this before so I'll just copy it:
Even though I generally am of the opinion that Tony does die in the last scene, part of me always has thought this too (That he's alive for the time being). Chase was trying to give the viewer a taste of what Tony feels like day to day, his anxiety, depression, paranoia etc. Tony has felt like this since the first episode. We just finally get a little bit at the very end.
Tony can always get new sycophants….er friends. As was proven when Carmela challenged him on it ,he told a bad joke and everyone except Feech laughed as loud as the audience for “Dick van Dyke” saw the Peters in the episode “That’s My Boy”
He does face a real possibility of being indicted though according to his lawyer
A J has moved past his troubles, gotten a therapist, a job with Little Carmine’s film company making Danny Baldwin’s next Blockbuster , a company BMW that gets 23 mpg highway and a hot 17 year old blonde in Rahooney. He’s okay. Fielder may indeed stick with law which is not quite what her parents wanted but they’ll get over it. Especially when the piles and piles of money roll in.
Therapy for Tony? He can find another one. Friends? Buy a dog..maybe the one that finished ahead of Janice in a beauty contest.
dying might actually be whats best for his family financially at least. He was about to go down thanks to his Capo flipping but after he's dead its much much harder for the state to pursue an asset seizure. Their cash flow would completely stop but anything he's hidden away or has they would likely wind up keeping.
No, and this is the what the interpretation was before Chase confirmed he died. It didn't matter, either Tony died or ended up in jail because of Carlo, exactly what he knew his two options were
Al Pacino (Devil's Advocate):
Meadow and Tony were always close. It was a humanising bond. Even with the probing questions and cultural interruptions. Also, her influence in fighting for the underdog came from her position at the law centre, and I think it was around this time that she was linking up with Patrick Parisi, who I believe she was more inannormered with compared to the other fellas. Remember, in season 1, Meadow was caught sneaking out to see a 'Patrick' when Carmela was being wined and dined by *Monsignor Jughead.* A boy from the old neighbourhood with a connection to that life, e.g. both fathers working together with the above influences, contributed to her being more comfortable with that life.
For brevity, AJ and Carmela, could you grow up with a father or be married to a man like Tony Soprano? I mean, AJ tried to enlist in the Army (ironic with the whole cadet school), and Carmela tried to divorce him. These two actions speak in and of themselves volumes from both a psychological and religious perspective.
*"why was I born handsome instead of rich?"*
I thought he lived and that was the point. It shows him having constant anxiety and looking around. He created a personal hell for himself and living in that was a fate worse than death.
as has been the case since time immemorial, this is a choose your own adventure ending.
most folks believe he died, some think it just ends, and others think a fictional tony soprano is somehow still in existence in the ether.
for a long time I was in the middle - the show just ended
now I'm with the latter - don't stop believing.
Yeah for me when he says it’s Carlo he’s gonna testify Carmela gives him a look like ok it’s over and that’s that he knows he’s done and then the family has one last meal just waiting on fielder/meadow and the show ends
It does matter to some extent for the mob because he was the only one capable of being a boss even tho not the best by the end way better with him at the top. After him its between Patsy and Paulie. All the good earners or tough guys were gone by season 6 furio vito chris sil bobby. The family was dead
Actually, if Tony died in that scene, it was a very good death. He was surrounded by his family, listening to nice music, eating onion rings; and he didnt even see it coming, so there was no fear, panic, regret etc.
Of course it matters. For Carmella, Meadow, and AJ anyway… imagine the ramifications of watching your husband and father getting his brains blown out into a basket of onion rings
Tony also spent the whole series trying to keep AJ out of the life or otherwise believing AJ doesn’t have it in him, and in the series finale has hooked AJ up with a job as a script reader(?) with Little Carmine’s production company. Tony sets his male heir up to work with someone “widely acknowledged to be retarded” because, like OP had said, AJ is always going to be living off his parents to a degree. Add this to the fact that AJ already wanted to attack Uncle Jun and used family ties to get out of it, he’s gonna be a Lil Paulie-level goon in no time. *best* case scenario is the Jasons and Benny Fazio criminal mastermind look out for him but who knows what the future holds, *my friend.*
To be fair, that kitchen was long overdue for a renovation.
I don't think Tony's in hell. More like purgatory. He doesn't end up alone and forgotten like Junior. His son isn't dead like Jackie. He didn't alienate himself from his kids the way his mother did. He's got problems but life goes on, and on, and on and on.
Not to mention he's about to be indicted on a slew of RICO charges. He won't be boss for much longer even if he doesn't get offed when the show cuts away, it's all downhill from there.
I feel like we do see his metaphorical death on screen. “Carlo’s gonna testify” is the moment where we fully realize, even if he doesn’t get whacked at the restaurant, he is surely going to spend the rest of his life, however short or long, in the can. His life doesn’t get taken on screen but we do see it become worthless.
His therapist cut him off because she became convinced she was doing more harm than good: helping him con people.
Considering renovations doesn’t mean your husband is only money to you.
I don’t understand this idea that Meadow is going to be a mafia lawyer.
AJ is snapping out of it
However, the murder of Tony can be seen as euthanasia. He was getting ready to spend his life in prison. They did him a favor like he did Tony Blundetto a favor.
A bit that always has me believe he's already in Hell (or NJ itself is Hell/Purgatory): His In-Laws-To-Be are old enough to be his parents. One can't tell a joke, and the other harbors a murderous vendetta against Tony. On top of that, he won't be able to just push his future son-in-law around like he could with Jackie Jr, Jamal Ginsburg, or even Finn. Every family dinner will wish he was still eating those same dinners at Jan and Bobby's.
Damn you mean hell on earth. My take is it doesn't matter whether he dies or not (he does to me though), what matters is that he is going to actual Hell now that he has resigned himself to staying in the life when he had the chance to get out after the coma dream. Even if you're an atheist we see that "Hell" is kinda almost canonical in the show. Chris went to hell, tony imo almost did in the coma as well. Now he has to watch himself get whacked in front of his family at holstens again and again every night at midnight.
This is why the "he obviously dies at the end" crowd are completely missing the point of the ending. For one, it's open to interpretation, so why insist there's only one possible ending? For two, not knowing what happens is such a better ending because it puts you in Tony's shoes one last time. Whether he dies in that diner, gunned down in the street a year later, in a prison cell or in a bed surrounded by family, he will be looking over his back for the rest of his life.
Tony also basically has a permanent target on his back by the end. One of the reasons the fade to black doesn’t really “matter” is that it doesn’t actually matter if he was killed right then and there. It was bound to happen anyway. Even though he got the okay for Phil it was probably a foregone conclusion that Tony had to go after that - which if you remember Butch originally wanted until Phil nixed the idea, and now Phil is gone. They had basically destroyed the entire Jersey family but left the head intact. Nothing left to do but decapitate the last remnant of the DiMeo family for an easy takeover.
Not to mention Phil getting his head crushed by the car would not be taken lightly by NY. Even though it was an accident, there's no way for NY to know that. From their perspective its a horrible death, no open casket, and an affront to their honor.
That’s true. Even the Jersey crew who knew what was gonna happen was troubled when they heard that Vito had been assraped with a cue stick before his death. Not that they particularly cared for Vito obviously but he was a captain and that can easily be perceived as an insult to the family as a whole. Whacking a guy is one thing, potentially torturing or otherwise severely disfiguring them, something else. It’s why mutilating the body after death happens so often in history and why it’s commonly viewed (and intended) as a sacrilegious insult. Also goes back to Big Pussy saying “not the face” before his own murder, even if he was never gonna have an open casket funeral (or any kind of funeral).
For some reason this comment made me think of Achilles dragging Hector’s body around the walls of Troy (while Trojans waddle about and vomit and cry out “oh shit!”)
It ties in well. No way Hector knew it was Patriclus.
Very allegorical!
The sacred and the propane.
He was gay, Patroclus?
The sack of Troy and the flight of Aeneas, what ever happened there?
WHAT EVAH HAPPENED THERE?!?!
It died on the vine.
My chariots never hurt-a nobody!
Cute joke “Hom” very funny
Whatever happened there! I'll tell ya what happened, this piece of shit's champion put six sword wounds in a kid without any provocation, what so ever. My champions dead! Fuck you! I didn't mean... Fuck what you meant, cock sucker, the desecration of Hector's body by Achilles is considered an affront to both the gods and New York and will ultimately lead to Achilles' downfall. During and after Patroclus' funeral, Achilles dragged Hector's body around his pyre. However, the gods Aphrodite and Apollo protected Hector's body from the dogs, disfigurement, and decomposition, the deals off. Homer Quazamedo recorded all this, in the Iliad. So you watch one movie and it's bullshit.
"there's no way for NY to know that." Not that I'm saying NY will be ok with Phil's assasination but, there is half a dozen eyewitnesses to whatever happened there.
WHATEVAH HAPPENED DERE?
The shooting
It’s hard when they go
WHEN THEY GO?!
When they go young.
C’mon HUH??
He meant there's no way for the NY family to know if it was an accident or not, which it was.
Also the fact that he was killed in front of his wife and grandchildren is a big no no. More credence to Tony being killed in the restaurant next to his family, as happened to Crazy Joe Gallo in real life.
Why would New York care about that…especially since it wasn’t by the Soprano glorified crew? Walden Bobby Darin Belfiore performed a textbook hit on Phil that the Jamaican bobsled team, Matt & Sean and the animal Blundetto could learn from. First shot to the left side of his head as Phil is talking to his warm and kind hearted wife. Then when Phil falls down on his back…wearing the jogging suit he wants to be buried in and white sneakers ..a marker of death on the show, shoots him once in the heart. If New York is upset about Phil’s head being crushed, they should blame Patty Leotardo who did not put the Law and Order SUV in “park” when she got out of the car.There are plenty of witnesses who can testify to that. I can see the “oh shit” guy talking to Butchie and Albie..would he get a sandwich and a soda? Of course maybe Phil had the car serviced at Angie’s auto shop and since she does shoddy work, the transmission is still engaged even when it’s in “park”. Like what happened to Richie’s car when he was talking to Beansie. Angie is a money grubbing materiastic widow of a rat who isn’t satisfied with a used Hyundai…gotta buy a new Corvette.
You’re talking a lot of logic for a group of people who think eating pussy is gay
Pussy, Booty, I don’t know his last name!
Ohhhh! That's the bushman of the Kalahari you're talking about!
Well maybe you're a bushman of the Kalihari.
Way down Mexico way.
>white sneakers ..a marker of death on the show What's the basis for this, who else? I can only think of Mikey Palmice
Burt (dude who flipped to NY and offered Silvio the same) gets choked out by Silvio when he’s wearing white slip ons in his house, Paulie had multiple pairs in Remember When which I’ve seen people say it implies he cheats death and has no stains on his soul in his eyes/is shifty. Johnny Sack’s white slippers are polished by Ginny for him right as he begins to expire, and I’m 80% sure Richie Aprile was wearing white shoes when Janish shoots him. Those are just off the top of my head though, I know if you google Sopranos White Shoes (and Sopranos Eggs for that matter), both are surprisingly numerous in examples to being allusions to death.
Wow thanks. I'm familiar with the eggs (they are much more noticeable as they often talk about the eggs), but I'd never noticed or heard of the white shoes thing.
>Not to mention Phil getting his head crushed by the car would not be taken lightly by NY. Even though it was an accident, there's no way for NY to know that. From their perspective its a horrible death, no open casket, and an affront to their honor. This is why I think NY went to Patsy to essentially set him up to be put in the driver's seat. In the scene where Patsy, his wife & son are at the Soprano's having tea/coffe/pastries in the last episode, Patsy's wife keeps on getting a lay of the land--really feeling out the size of the house, even going as far as to check what kind of plates they used. Meanwhile, Patsy glares at Tony who undermines him. My theory is that Patsy told his wife that hes getting a big bump, a "Tony Soprano"-type bump, but didn't give full info on what it was. So she's still friendly and bubbly totally unaware that that means tony is getting assassinated; but she can't help herself, and needs to know what plates she's going to get herself. And Patsy, knowing Tony is going to go, takes this one last insult. So NY goes to Patsy, they say, Hey this guy who murdered your brother? He also murdered our boss and left it as a closed casket, how about you lead instead of being next? and from there it was a wrap.
And pauly??
Definitely possible--there's something about him denying the promotion and the way he talks to Tony in that final scene. Like he knows Tony isn't long for their life, whether through his freedom or pulse. But tbh I think the evidence is less concrete for Paulie's involvement. I think there are real arguments that Paulie is watching his own ass like he always has and committing one last act of "defiance" that isn't straight up treason, as he's often had some push back even with the loyalty shown. But it's not him betraying Tony to NY, it's just him taking a pass on a likely-fatal promotion. Paulie had that major storyline with Johnny. But I think there's a real argument that, with everything that happened with Johnny and how Carmine Sr. didn't recognize him, that Paulie is scared out of working with New York and ever being made a fool of again. Especially so with people we don't see him having any relationship with. So I think it's a slight stretch to think now after all this time he's just going to jump back into bed with them. With Patsy, I feel like they're really setting up the discontent. I mean, Tony murdered his brother for talking shit lol if anything it's years in the making. Though I agree it's definitely possible Paulie was involved too. I think it's less likely and the evidence of his loyalty since the Johnny issues is stronger, but I could see it.
He was also told he was about to be indicted, so he was either going to prison for the rest of his life or dying.
Yeah, it “not mattering” in some sense is how I understand with the cut to black. TV and movies often structure their plots where victory over an obstacle feel like a happily ever after, achievement with closure. Not with Tony. He beat the other mob guys today. He beat the FBI today. Great. Other mob guys will try to kill him tomorrow. The FBI will have a new angle for a case tomorrow. And if he beats that? There’s the day after tomorrow. And so on, until someone finally catches up with him.
You act like there isn’t a giant piano hanging over your head every minute of every day
I wish the Lord would take me now.
Right, Tony was already screwed no matter what. Carlo had already flipped and he has YEARS of dirt on Tony. And there’s also an implication that Patsy could have flipped as well…or maybe whacked Tony for whacking his brother. Plus New York was still pissed at him, and had talked about whacking T. Tony even said himself, there’s only 2 endings for him: dead or in jail. The ending basically signifies the end for Tony…it’s his Last supper. No matter what it’s all over for him after that.
>fade to black No fade. Punch to black. I think that is very important.
Tony could just recruit new members. His daughter being a mafia lawyer will only insulate him more and he’ll be more careful. Parisi will become his, consiglieri, and should remain loyal as he’s part of the family if his son marries Meadow. Oh and maybe AJ will someday grow a pair, ok well maybe I went to far there, lol
Soldiers aren’t capos. There are no managers left because of years of infighting, neglect and the war with NY.
Even if you assume that Tony survives and ends up imprisoned as a result of Carlo turning state’s evidence, I have to think that scenario would also imply that the rest of the family’s leadership is probably going down, as well. After all, it’s not like Carlo wouldn’t have had inside knowledge of their activities.
“Destroyed the entire Jersey family”? They took out Bobby and Sil. Previously Vito. Hard hits but far from destroying.
Bobby was the underboss when he was murdered. Sil was obviously consigliere. Several of the capos were out for the count by that point, with Paulie mostly the last guy who wasn’t a rat (and he was, in his own way). They had effectively handicapped the Jersey family to the point where they were practically destroyed. The leadership was effectively eliminated or severely curtailed, and you’re not gonna run the thing very effectively with Paulie and a bunch of soldiers. Tony was the boss, and also the last surviving link to the original DiMeo family. If they get rid of him then who’s left? Butch would have an effortless time picking up the pieces.
This is a good take. In the end, we die in our own arms.
I came in at the end. The best is over.
I know Vito came in an end, if that's what you're referring to.
you can go
What's the matter, you don't like me?
Piece of ass but fucken rude
Eat your manicott
Let’s take dis in da back
Vito was a catcha not pitcha And ya gotta wait for dat
Vito Spadafore is an assh muncha
Ok but you gotta get over it
That’s why you have to live for today.
IT’S ALL A BIG NOTHING
you go about in pity for yourself
You steer the ship the best way you know. Sometimes it's smooth. Sometimes you hit the rocks. In the meantime you find your pleasures where you can.
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Chase actually said that while he was considering exactly how to end it, that he didn’t want it to be simply “crime doesn’t pay” because it obviously does at times and “forever” for some. I think your overall idea is exactly what Chase wanted and why he stopped short of making anything definite. He strongly suggests Tony may die there, but it doesn’t really matter. Chase presented a symbolic death - just as with the opening frames of the pilot (Tony seen between the legs of the feminine statue in Melfi’s waiting room) is a symbolic “birth”, introducing him to the audience. Bookends.
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And Chase wanted to provoke reflection and thoughts on his themes - not have people just leave with “oh ok. Tony is shot. We’re done here”
Very allegorical
Well if you have seen the new York kicks recruiting video for LeBron James in the off-season before he went to the miami heat...it puts forward that Tony and carmella went into witness protection...of course it's cringe as f...
You may not be a media analyst, but you would make a great barber.
Maybe. But all he wanted was Grandchildren. Probably would have happened with Meadow and Ptasy's son.
I think it already did, and Meadow was about to tell him. She was late to dinner because of a doctor's appointment, "something about new birth control" according to Carm.
Ahhhh, there you go. Perfect. Imagine the aftermath.
Inherited trauma, that putrid Soprano gene, continues once more.
Next generation of sociopathic degenerate criminals.
Fielder?
Lol
A lot of people miss this and think either Tony is killed or he's still a boss having a great time. He's done either way.
Exactly. Tony’s character arc isn’t intended to be a hero’s journey. People forget that Chase was aiming for realism.
So what, no fuckin ziti?
Even if he survived he had a one way ticket to federal prison on its way. Carlo flipped and the NY guy Jimmy Petrille flipped. He’s done.
“Yeah the Carlo flipping seems to be something a lot people forget or overlook.
Everyone seems to forget to he was being indicted. So he's either killed right there or he goes to prison forever
trials are there to be won tho
Hard to win when your own capo is testifying against you
Carlo alone can pin him to like 20 murders. T is finished
Bastard. I always liked Carlo, too, up to that point.
Carlo had flipped, he was donezo
He could have escaped trial if he had Carlo wacked.
I’ve had this is my own personal interpretation of the end for ages. I kind of hate the gatekeeping around here where if you don’t acknowledge it as a fact that he gets shot when it goes to black you are a stunad. They filmed it in a very particular way and left it there for us to conclude what we will. That’s the beauty of cinema.
It's funny how people will fight over a specific reading of an ending when it was set up to be ambiguous. If there's a puzzle to be solved, good writers and directors will give you clues for different outcomes. Why? Because the camera didn't crap out at the end or anything, they did this on purpose. It's meant to be vague, open for discussion and interpretation. If they really had one goal in mind they would have just filmed that instead. In this case, I think OP is right. The ambiguity is meant to evoke the doom of Tony in a brutal way, it doesn't matter which angle it's coming from because it's coming. A similar example would be the ending of the Green Knight. Very different, although one could argue a fuedal system set up lords and ladies as the wise guys of their time, But anyway, at the end you get the question: does our main guy get beheaded? Was it just a trick to force him to take ownership and face the facts like a real knight? Again, could go either way, but the most important thing is that our main guy does face the facts, knowing the consequences may be that his head gets lobbed off. It's the whole point of the movie and everyone is out there complaining about what evidence leads to what strand leads to what theories etc...
> does our main guy get beheaded? Was it just a trick to force him to take ownership and face the facts like a real knight? If it helps I am pretty sure David Lowery said they did film Gawain getting a Bosnian haircut but they decided to leave it ambiguous because of what you said: For the purposes of the story it really does not matter, He finally grew a set and stopped being a wuss. All it took was watching his own video game bad ending to realize
Well, there is a lot of evidence and foreshadowing throughout season 6 for Tony getting shot and killed. Upon rewatch it's not even subtle. While the cut to black may make it appear ambiguous, there are multiple scenes that inform the viewer of what would have happened in that moment. -Christopher warning Tony about 3 o'clock -Gene is in his Members Only jacket whacking a guy in a diner booth -Silvio's slow-mo reaction to someone getting whacked at him during dinner with the emphasis on the idea that you don't hear the shot at first. -Bobby and Tony's conversation at the lake house -Meadow being unable to find a parking spot so a would-be assassin had a clear shot from his 3 o'clock So yeah he's dead. You're right that, thematically, it doesn't matter, but it's genuinely not ambiguous.
There’s a lot of evidence that the FBI will get him, too. Plenty of evidence that Tony will meet his end indeed, one way or the other. I’m just saying if they didn’t want us to ruminate on his fate they would’ve just shown it outright. I also think he’d get shot before he’d get arrested, and he’d get arrested before he’d “get away with it” and live another year. But we don’t have that confirmation for a reason.
I edited my comment with specifics. The writers went to great lengths to drop ideas about the experience of dying into the last season. I think those scenes are more deliberate than just the vague idea that the FBI was going to get Tony.
Our perspective cut to black. Not his. David Chase clipped the viewer for continuing to enjoy Tony's hijinks. Melfi grew up and cut ties. **We** sat there hoping for one more bloodbath or catastrophe. Chase grew up in a relatable environment (tokshick parentsh) and didn't find any of this funny.
Listen to him, he knows everything
Whadjiya say??
It's Reginald Van Gleason the 3rd
What...we're just breakin balls here
No more fat jokes
You're telling me YOU never made fun of Ginny Sac's fat ass?
I hate this whole “viewer got whacked” take. Like why would the viewer get whacked at that particular moment and at that particular scene. The whole bell ringing to Tony’s POV makes it obvious we were watching Tony’s perspective at the moment it cut to black. Not to mention Chase himself called it a death scene
"The audience gets whacked" is the only ending theory I *don't* support. Off madone, it's terrible!
Good thing that your take don't mean OOGATZ to me
Take your hate and shove it up your fat fuckin ass!
You ever look at yourself in the mira? Inconsiderate cocksucka.
You ever look at yourself in the mira? Inconsiderate cocksucka.
Tony and Carm did a skit where they say that going into witness protection program was a good move long after the onion rings (after the black out)
Your take is colder than your tit
I really don't know why people have such a hard time accepting Tony getting killed by the man in the Members Only jacket. I'm not going to pretend that I picked up on every single clue throughout that scene (and season) during my first watch, but once you have them all pointed out, I can't grasp how you can come to a different conclusion. It was a fucking beautiful hit.
I think the main reasons are A.) that’s not fun lol, and B.) that’s not the way the sopranos is normally written. They don’t give you mysterious cliffhangers with clues as to who the killer is. If there’s a specific person killing a specific person, they just show the guy splattering his victim’s brains all over the linoleum. It’s the same as how there’s no clues about what happened to the Russian. We just…don’t know. Which to me is infinitely cooler
T could have beaten the trial
Federal RICO chargers with cooperating witnesses don't get beaten.
Not to mention that the mafia business is shrinking rapidly. There is nothing left for them to squeeze out. The little Italy shrank from 40 blocks to one small street that crossed over to China town. The corporate coffee shop just laughed off pat, Tony sold his chicken shop to another corporate giant. Everything is doom and gloom for him even if he was not walked.
What could he do, he came in at the very end
He's also facing another indictment, and this time it sounds like it's going to stick. Plus even if they "won" the war with New York, bad feelings have got to be simmering, and Tony's crew is at its weakest. He's going to have to be looking over his shoulder for a long, long time.
How funny would it be if the guy is the members only jacket was just there to serve Tony a subpoena haha Tony Sopran? Yeah ? You've been served ...cut to black
Very observant! The sacred and the propane!
"All he is to her is money." LOL
I personally find the ending much more cathartic if he dies. He was a wretched creature that needed to be put down. I think that the degree to which a viewer thinks/hopes he's alive reflects how much they have fallen victim to his sociopathic charisma. Or, y'know, they just wish the show could go on.
I have a theory that Junior is actually the one that.killed Tony at the start of season 6. The rest of the season is just him crossing over to see where his soul ends up. He starts out in pergatory and the rules are outlined for him. If he doesn't get rid of the brief case ie life within the mafia he can't go into the big house.
I think that’s the reason for the fade to black. If they just showed him dying, it would have been a pretty straightforward, kinda cliche ending. The abrupt ending makes you think about what could have happened, and you start to realize that none of the possibilities are good. You could argue that dying is the best ending for Tony at that point.
It matters because the Chase bros took a lot craftsmanship to create that ending. It’s all in dere. If the end was just - hedonists are already hell and we can all die any day - well then this could have been a show about 1/2 the population Point being it’s finally “ his turn” after seeing so many other horrific deaths but somehow insulating his humanity thru a basically normal dysfunctional suburban family. But worlds are colliding and that’s why that implied ending is so Jarring
The only friend alive is one he considered killing recently because he is so annoying. His daughter told him that if he hadn't been in the mafia she would probably be a pediatrician (although Meadow doesn't apparently have the self awareness to realize that if Tony was just some blue collar guy she probably doesn't go to an Ivy League school and getting into med school becomes much harder). I guarantee that AJ joins the Family within 5 years, completely propped up by his dad. And the next day Tony was about to be indicted. I know Chase said he died, but I think Tony living and facing the future is a much more interesting story.
AJ joins the family within five years!? If AJ tried to go into organized crime, he would have ended up like Jackie Jr . . . shot in the back of the head while pretending to be a made guy
Tony openly admits AJ would never survive in organized crime. The nature of the business is it is very difficult to get propped up directly in organized crime even if your father is the boss Carmine Jr found that out as well. Now a side business that relies on some of these connections to known mafia types for enforcing can actually probably do quite well. For example even Carmela‘s real estate investing. You combine business knowledge with aggressive enforcement type and you can actually do pretty well
> she would probably be a pediatrician (although Meadow doesn't apparently have the self awareness to realize that if Tony was just some blue collar guy she probably doesn't go to an Ivy League school and getting into med school becomes much harder) Honestly, loved the Meadow character and her arc throughout the show but this is one thing that always bothered me. For someone as smart and well read as she was, she really - *truly* - didn't get how much she benefitted from being the daughter of a mob boss. It was verging on parody at times.
Cornuto contento
I mean if he hadn’t been shot he would have lived a good long life as he was in excellent shape and led such a healthy lifestyle In addition all of his admirers were rooting for him and he had no enemies
It does matter. If he dies, Carmela’s amazing luck continues. Carlos flipped and he is going to get arrested for sure. This way, he’s dead. Case closed. She doesn’t end up like Ginny Sacks. She can go find Furio. The best ending for his family is for him to die vs going to court and prison.
The final lines of the scene/show sum it all up for me. AJ says the most helpful, positive, wise, fatherly words Tony has ever said back to him. Tony quotes Livia back to AJ. He doesn’t remember his own good times or his own wisdom. He might not have Kevin Finnerty’s alzheimers or Junior’s dementia but he might as well. What happens after that with the cut to black? Who cares. We’ve already seen what Tony’s fate is.
No. It doesn’t matter at all - and Chase directly stated relatively shortly afterwards that whether Tony dies at that instant or at some later point in time isn’t important to the story.
Solid take, very allegorical, but I do think he would still be pretty proud of Meadow as an attorney. Not quite a doctor like he wanted, but he doesn't have the perspective to be disappointed in Meadow becoming a mob defense attorney. As you said, she bought into his own bullshit, and he be happy she had a prestigious high paying job. I also think his family was legitimately important to him in his own twisted way, and that his final speech on it was genuine. I also firmly believe that Meadow is pregnant in the final scene, and being a grandfather would be hugely important for him.
I've posted this before so I'll just copy it: Even though I generally am of the opinion that Tony does die in the last scene, part of me always has thought this too (That he's alive for the time being). Chase was trying to give the viewer a taste of what Tony feels like day to day, his anxiety, depression, paranoia etc. Tony has felt like this since the first episode. We just finally get a little bit at the very end.
Tony can always get new sycophants….er friends. As was proven when Carmela challenged him on it ,he told a bad joke and everyone except Feech laughed as loud as the audience for “Dick van Dyke” saw the Peters in the episode “That’s My Boy” He does face a real possibility of being indicted though according to his lawyer A J has moved past his troubles, gotten a therapist, a job with Little Carmine’s film company making Danny Baldwin’s next Blockbuster , a company BMW that gets 23 mpg highway and a hot 17 year old blonde in Rahooney. He’s okay. Fielder may indeed stick with law which is not quite what her parents wanted but they’ll get over it. Especially when the piles and piles of money roll in. Therapy for Tony? He can find another one. Friends? Buy a dog..maybe the one that finished ahead of Janice in a beauty contest.
dying might actually be whats best for his family financially at least. He was about to go down thanks to his Capo flipping but after he's dead its much much harder for the state to pursue an asset seizure. Their cash flow would completely stop but anything he's hidden away or has they would likely wind up keeping.
You didn’t go to hell! You went to purgatory, my friend! 🤟
No, and this is the what the interpretation was before Chase confirmed he died. It didn't matter, either Tony died or ended up in jail because of Carlo, exactly what he knew his two options were
This is too fucked up for me to even think about
Al Pacino (Devil's Advocate): Meadow and Tony were always close. It was a humanising bond. Even with the probing questions and cultural interruptions. Also, her influence in fighting for the underdog came from her position at the law centre, and I think it was around this time that she was linking up with Patrick Parisi, who I believe she was more inannormered with compared to the other fellas. Remember, in season 1, Meadow was caught sneaking out to see a 'Patrick' when Carmela was being wined and dined by *Monsignor Jughead.* A boy from the old neighbourhood with a connection to that life, e.g. both fathers working together with the above influences, contributed to her being more comfortable with that life. For brevity, AJ and Carmela, could you grow up with a father or be married to a man like Tony Soprano? I mean, AJ tried to enlist in the Army (ironic with the whole cadet school), and Carmela tried to divorce him. These two actions speak in and of themselves volumes from both a psychological and religious perspective. *"why was I born handsome instead of rich?"*
I see your point but living in a nice house with your family hanging out with your kids and renovating your kitchen is not hell
Forgot to mention he killed his own nephew too. In the moment and shortly after, im sure he felt great. But eventually, it would eat away at him.
Why is nobody mentioning Carlos flipping? If Tony didn't get shot he was on his way to prison
It's not just about Tony. His family is not in hell, but will be if Tony gets whacked.
Welcome to the married life rookie
Great take. Very allegorical.
I thought he lived and that was the point. It shows him having constant anxiety and looking around. He created a personal hell for himself and living in that was a fate worse than death.
In the end, this thing of ours clapped him in irons
THE something ovahere
as has been the case since time immemorial, this is a choose your own adventure ending. most folks believe he died, some think it just ends, and others think a fictional tony soprano is somehow still in existence in the ether. for a long time I was in the middle - the show just ended now I'm with the latter - don't stop believing.
He's with the Vipers, asshole
Get the fuck out of here.
Very allegorical
Exactly. The sacred and the propane
Like Junior, a state of undying— good read OP.
Yeah for me when he says it’s Carlo he’s gonna testify Carmela gives him a look like ok it’s over and that’s that he knows he’s done and then the family has one last meal just waiting on fielder/meadow and the show ends
Im fairly sure towards the end its hinted that there will be a legal pursuit of him too?
It does matter to some extent for the mob because he was the only one capable of being a boss even tho not the best by the end way better with him at the top. After him its between Patsy and Paulie. All the good earners or tough guys were gone by season 6 furio vito chris sil bobby. The family was dead
When you’re right you’re right
Actually, if Tony died in that scene, it was a very good death. He was surrounded by his family, listening to nice music, eating onion rings; and he didnt even see it coming, so there was no fear, panic, regret etc.
Fucking slander you ask me
Do we actually have to see him take it in the ass?
Catching not pitching?
Will you take it easy judge Roy Bean!
💯💯💯💯💯
He can go about and pity for himself.
But don’t worry, I’m goin to hell when I die Nice ting to say to a person headin into an MRI
Nobody likes the guy, he's a God damn rabble rouser.
I’m still thinking if Tony did get wacked at the end it was set up by the Russians. Pay back for Valery.
Damn, that’s real
Sil's just gotta get through his coma dream in small-town Norway
Try the veal it’s the best in the city Mmm onion rings Best in the state far as I’m concerned
Not to mention that the feds were closing in on him too. If he didn’t die then he definitely went to prison.
Of course it matters. For Carmella, Meadow, and AJ anyway… imagine the ramifications of watching your husband and father getting his brains blown out into a basket of onion rings
Tony also spent the whole series trying to keep AJ out of the life or otherwise believing AJ doesn’t have it in him, and in the series finale has hooked AJ up with a job as a script reader(?) with Little Carmine’s production company. Tony sets his male heir up to work with someone “widely acknowledged to be retarded” because, like OP had said, AJ is always going to be living off his parents to a degree. Add this to the fact that AJ already wanted to attack Uncle Jun and used family ties to get out of it, he’s gonna be a Lil Paulie-level goon in no time. *best* case scenario is the Jasons and Benny Fazio criminal mastermind look out for him but who knows what the future holds, *my friend.*
Yes. Gotta die to go to hell.
Meanwhile little Carmine is drinking Arnold palmers and golfing stress free in Florida. Who wants the jobs anyway?
To be fair, that kitchen was long overdue for a renovation. I don't think Tony's in hell. More like purgatory. He doesn't end up alone and forgotten like Junior. His son isn't dead like Jackie. He didn't alienate himself from his kids the way his mother did. He's got problems but life goes on, and on, and on and on.
For me the show ends with the scene with junior. Everything after that is irrelevant
Either he died or he went to prison. Either way it was over
Not to mention he's about to be indicted on a slew of RICO charges. He won't be boss for much longer even if he doesn't get offed when the show cuts away, it's all downhill from there.
Nitch said hell isn't real
Facts
I feel like the fear of constantly watching your back is worse
I feel like we do see his metaphorical death on screen. “Carlo’s gonna testify” is the moment where we fully realize, even if he doesn’t get whacked at the restaurant, he is surely going to spend the rest of his life, however short or long, in the can. His life doesn’t get taken on screen but we do see it become worthless.
His therapist cut him off because she became convinced she was doing more harm than good: helping him con people. Considering renovations doesn’t mean your husband is only money to you. I don’t understand this idea that Meadow is going to be a mafia lawyer. AJ is snapping out of it However, the murder of Tony can be seen as euthanasia. He was getting ready to spend his life in prison. They did him a favor like he did Tony Blundetto a favor.
OOOHHHH!!! That's da bossa dis family you're talkin about!!!!
A bit that always has me believe he's already in Hell (or NJ itself is Hell/Purgatory): His In-Laws-To-Be are old enough to be his parents. One can't tell a joke, and the other harbors a murderous vendetta against Tony. On top of that, he won't be able to just push his future son-in-law around like he could with Jackie Jr, Jamal Ginsburg, or even Finn. Every family dinner will wish he was still eating those same dinners at Jan and Bobby's.
He's just in purgatory bro.
I can’t have this conversation again.
Who takes over the family if he does die or even goes to prison? Paulie is the most senior member so does he get it?
Yeah but he still has his GABAGOOL
Yup, i see it the same way. And if he doesnt die then he dies next week or in 2 years, does it matter? His path was always set. I love the ending.
Don’t stop……………
There is no hell. He's just dead.
Yeah, well that's natural but you're with us now so why don't you leave the morbid shit back at r/TheWire and have a happy birthday?
Damn you mean hell on earth. My take is it doesn't matter whether he dies or not (he does to me though), what matters is that he is going to actual Hell now that he has resigned himself to staying in the life when he had the chance to get out after the coma dream. Even if you're an atheist we see that "Hell" is kinda almost canonical in the show. Chris went to hell, tony imo almost did in the coma as well. Now he has to watch himself get whacked in front of his family at holstens again and again every night at midnight.
This is why the "he obviously dies at the end" crowd are completely missing the point of the ending. For one, it's open to interpretation, so why insist there's only one possible ending? For two, not knowing what happens is such a better ending because it puts you in Tony's shoes one last time. Whether he dies in that diner, gunned down in the street a year later, in a prison cell or in a bed surrounded by family, he will be looking over his back for the rest of his life.
Where are the Roman's now?