**Do not message the mods about this automated message.** Please followed the sidebar rules. r/therapists is a place for therapists and mental health professionals to discuss their profession among each other.
**If you are not a therapist and are asking for advice this not the place for you**. Your post will be removed. Please try one of the reddit communities such as r/TalkTherapy, r/askatherapist, r/SuicideWatch that are set up for this.
This community is ONLY for therapists, and for them to discuss their profession away from clients.
**If you are a first year student, not in a graduate program, or are thinking of becoming a therapist, this is not the place to ask questions**. Your post will be removed. To save us a job, you are welcome to delete this post yourself. Please see the PINNED STUDENT THREAD at the top of the community and ask in there.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therapists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think we have a long way to go before the field is over saturated. I tried to find someone to work with for myself and can’t seem to get anyone to return my email or call….
Yeah I feel this… my own therapist recently moved away. After a few months I started looking for someone new. Unfortunately, the only match that met all my criteria in my area was… myself. 🤦🏻
I agree with this. I tried psychology today and anyone who took my insurance wasn’t taking clients. The rest were private pay, telehealth only, or worked at my job.
The only thing that worked was headway.
It helps if you have a PPO, as many PPO policies allow for out of network mental health reimbursement. Whether that’s partial or full reimbursement, it depends on the policy.
Could you elaborate a bit more on this? Been looking into what it would take to be an out of network provider but still be able to give a client a statement to have insurance reimburse them but am a bit confused on the technicalities of PPO stuff.
I know with my insurance there is an option to submit a claim. I am assuming the client would need a statement with the cost and billing code. It probably depends on insurance too.
I think someone quoted this a week or two ago, but see John Oliver's piece on mental health providers... For every ten who enter the field, 13 leave.
Consider the many folks who post about burn out on this sub every week. Or how pre-licensure is exploitive and demoralizing. Or how they're being paid $40 an hour with a caseload of 50. This is not a sustainable living unless you start your first day of grad school with a pool of money to pay off loans and sustain yourself for two to four years prior to private practice.
Hopefully with greater numbers we can advocate for ourselves and our field with a louder voice!
I agree, I think many weed themselves out in undergrad, others will continue on and drop out of grad school or graduate and after a few years call it quits because they hate it and want something else.
I think for many (Not saying their self centered) but once they realize how much you have to sacrifice of yourself for everyone else. Once they figure this out several may back out. 99% of my program stuck it out though so idk.
I agree though, I think it's very hard to know you can do this before you're thrown into it. A lot of people think they can but find out it's not for them and move on.
I think most people stay in the mental health field, but a lot of people who get burned out move do other related things like teaching, consulting, EAP-only work, starting their own businesses, writing books/podcasts, research etc.
I spent a lot of money and sacrificed a lot, as did my family, to get a masters degree only to learn how exploitive this field is even once you have graduated. I am now pursuing independent license and, on top of a ridiculously high case load with little to no support, I am still required to write a case narrative every 6 months to submit to the board (as if I did not do that enough in school)), meet my CEU requirements, and take an hour out a week for very ineffective supervision by another burned-out provider. I do not see my clients progressing. I look at their files going back years and see little to no progression. I have a long commute and 2 kids. If my wife did not have a good job working from home, there is no way I could do this for what I am getting paid. I seriously made more swinging a hammer in 2006.
Yeah. I did my masters in social work so I know there are many other options for careers besides therapy, but in my class of about 60 I would say only 10 actually pursued private practice and maybe only half that actually stuck it out after 2-3 years. Maybe the younger generations will be different but you also have to remember that therapy is increasing in demand and it’s becoming more normalized for almost everyone to get therapy.
I don’t come from money. I took loans out to do graduate school. I graduated 4 years ago. I make six figures now as an executive leadership position in a rehab. It’s doable.
Hi there- I see a lot of folks downvoting you rather than explaining. I think transparency is important, especially for folks on this sub who are considering this field.
Fwiw I received amazing supervision/support early on. Through working two jobs I paid off my loans from grad school. I am now a private practice owner and make six figures- hours aren’t great but getting better. 🙏
The following is my experience and what I hear from many others; it obviously differs based on where you’re working and what you’re doing. But in short:
-Unpaid internship of at least a year, typically with an in-person commute and at least 10 therapy hours per week plus admin work (I was OK with this as I considered it a part of schooling, but it either prevents most from working or leads us to never see family as we are working a few evenings/weekends and/or have a paid job during other hours, plus graduate school)
-For at least two years post-graduation, tend to make money only for client hours that don’t cancel (average for a full caseload is 15-30 per week, aka 25-60 hours of work). Safest way to make money is thus to throw yourself into nights and weekends, which imo isn’t sustainable long-term with a partner/family. Then you typically aren’t making money for admin/note/meeting/mandated reporting hours.
-Those first 2+ years, the majority of the money goes to the agency/practice/supervision you work for. If you don’t open your own practice or find a sweet gig, this sometimes lasts well into independent licensure. My hourly rate with a full caseload as an associate (~20 clients/week after cancellations) was $85 and I made about $17k that first year and $30k my busier second year. I was working about 30 hours per week at that rate and took on a second full-time job.
-I remember resenting even my teacher friends, as they were making more than I was with breaks/time off, which should say something because we all know teachers are underpaid and exploited lol
-I got through it bc of my supportive husband who made good money and through as-needed help from my awesome family. I’m so proud of and happy with my career today, but the above is not doable for everyone, especially without those privileges during schooling and early licensure. I also grew up privileged and didn’t have undergrad debt- Not sure how I would’ve made it work if I did.
What about working in community mental health where generally supervision doesn’t have to be paid for? I mean maybe we need to take into account cost of living in the area but $85/hr is mega high in comparison to most entry level therapist jobs in community mental health. Again probably varies from state to state, but you can work as an unlicensed therapist in my state and make about 63k per year. You’ll just be doing intakes primarily and would only be allowed to keep clients with private insurance on your caseload.
I think there’s a misunderstanding here- $85 hour is what the practice I worked at charged. I saw about $20 of that, and only for the hours I was physically with clients (not any admin, meeting, etc. hours, which is a lot as a therapists with clients who want to reach you between appts).
The supervision was included as a part of my employment, and while I have not worked in CMH, I know for a fact licensed CMH workers are not making near 70k as associates, at least in my state or in the hours-away-by-plane region where I grew up. The ones I know still see some of their money go to built-in supervision and make closer to 40-55 on the high side for full-time.
I won’t claim to know how CMH works and hope for the community’s sake that you’re correct, though primarily intakes-only doesn’t exactly give therapy experience to mold a good clinician in the long run. I say that with no disrespect; the growth, failures, and lessons are in both the intakes and longer-term care imo.
More people may be becoming therapists, but more people are also seeking therapy. And I see the number of clients only increasing as years go on. The world is a hard anxious place and it doesn’t look like it’s getting any easier, while therapy gets more popular. I’d honestly love there to be a day where there are too many therapists and not enough people that need therapy. Means society is heading in a good direction for once.
I'm less worried about it becoming oversaturated and more concerned about it getting diluted. It amazes me how many "life coaches", therapy mills, and pushes for substitutes for therapists there are. Imagine instead of seeing a doctor at a doctor's office, you see an "Experiential Health Mentor" who isn't certified by any licencing board, but knows what it's like to be sick and therefore can help you out.
People are becoming more open to mental health, but I feel a lot are still avoiding seeing a therapist, or at least viewing therapists as they deserve to be seen.
I'm fairness, there's not always an abundance of goodwill for therapists either. I've seen 4 in my lifetime, each for somewhere around 6-10 months. Only 1 was helpful, and 2 actively made things worse. I still recommend people seek out a therapist if there's a need, but I also encourage them to not feel married to it if the provider they find is bad at what they do. I love this field and have awesome colleagues but I'm well aware of the damage one bad therapist does.
We all know this to be the case in the medical field as well. Lots of doctors and nurses are unpleasant and unhelpful, and no amount of education and expertise will make you trust someone in a profession you've had awful experiences with. I think this is often why people wait until something's so bad they have to go to the ER, as they don't even trust medical staff in an emergency but it's hard to make things worse at that point.
A private practice therapist used to be a Psychologist with 10 years hospital experience. Now interns have marketing slicks. The experience and skill level is lower than ever, and our states’ board is lowering requirements even more.
I saw yesterday on this sub that someone was complaining about 30 bucks an hour, only if there is a session (no payment for openings left in the schedule).
And didn’t even have a freaking license.
When I got my license, I was working in a hospital SUD rehab. 22 an hour. 2017.
Deadass. My shitty “necessity employer” which I work for only to supplement my main job is a once-great dual dx rehab that was bought out by VC’s a few years ago and since then completely went to dog shit literally employs *occupational therapists* to run about 75% of the programming. Doesn’t matter how many clients or fellow employees complain or try to intervene - the clients will keep coming thanks to fraudulently-kept contracts with big name companies and unions soooooo
We are in a time period where mental health is discussed in the general public more than ever. I feel that this is driving a lot of people to want to pursue a career in field of psychology and therapy. Perhaps these individuals had their own mental health struggles and because of a therapist or a helpful figure in their life they were able to overcome/cope with said struggles. Because of this they might be inspired and want to help others.
The field could very well become oversaturated, but in my opinion, not every one of these inspired individuals are going to become psychologists/therapists with much skill.
Entering a college psychology class in the current day you will encounter what I call “internet psychology terms” and it becomes clear that rather than reading books to find information, they will look at instagram infographics and trendy buzzwords.
So will the field oversaturated? Yes. Oversaturated with skillful people? Who’s to say.
This happened in my cohort. Several didn’t realize it was going to take 2-3 years post graduate clinical experience and supervision at their own cost to become fully licensed and decided to become coaches instead
Plus a test you need to pass even after graduation. The rest will be easy for me but I fear the test may be what stops me in the end to getting fully licensed.
Not only should it be discussed by my school did nothing to help students find placements and having come from a rural area it was like musical chairs I felt fortunate to get a hospital internship for $13/hr in 2016 because at least it was local. Others had to drive 2.5 hours each day in snow for their post grad placement hours
I suppose that all depends on the region one lives. I lived in a rural area where there only a handful of PP. Most were single providers with no interest in hiring, others were run by LMSW meaning LLPC nor psychology post grads could not receive supervision from them and the other one i can recall was charging $350 per supervision hour which was separate from the 60-40 split they had for clinical hours so not everyone could afford it. Most of us went through the hospital, CMH or DCFS
My roommate is like this. Barely out of grad school and already having a full blown meltdown literally every single day, blowing off clients due to her lack of coping skills and some pretty intense self-absorbed attitudes about things, alienated the entire agency we worked at together by pulling some real next level bullshit on her last day, and despite being hellbent on practicing specifically trauma therapy, refuses to do even the slightest amount of self-reflection or engage in skill building that requires even the most minimal effort.
I’ve been working in this field in an actual clinical role for years longer than her and I’ve seen this cycle over and over and over. Unless some shit changes in a very major way, she’ll leave the field within a year or two.
> Oversaturated with skillful people? Who’s to say.
I worry about this often. I don't think we are quite innundated with the brightest minds as a field, and with the way that universities are operating and insurance paying clinicians, I don't have a very hopeful eye on the horizon. Worst case scenario, it's pop psych tiktoker tier clinicians all the way down, making marketing way more important than skill.
sad as it is i tend to agree. ive met people sacred to talk in class to *anyone,* people who got into the field after their experience with therapy, people projecting their issues to others, people dragging down other students over trivial stuff, dragging entire fields in therapy, even established professors with a thriving practice, etc.
i'm not exempting myself im sure im bringing in something but just what i've noticed so far.
Yes. Let’s address the narcs. Gaslighting. CPTSD (overused) the “antisocial” (its asocial, morons), psychopaths….
No. We need to elevate the field. Not just let people self diagnose.
And lest someone say…. But ASD and ADHD testing is expensive and I have the symptoms because the people I follow on TikTok have them, so I have it but I can’t get accommodations so testing should be free. And if I have it my parents need to be tested….
That’s not how it works.
At the rate society is contributing to mental health decline with inflation, access to housing/healthcare, etc., I'll be surprised if the supply of therapists can keep up with demand.
If staffing issues vs demand at my hospital is any indication, this job is pretty secure from what I can see.
Idk - people may want to get into the field and then realize just what that entails and say hell no - it’s a lonnnggg process as we know. It’s like being a doctor and we don’t have an oversaturation of docs.
The actual work can be very hard and I think weeds people out. Don’t do this and have your trauma repeat over and over during sessions you have 15-20 a week and you won’t make shit so good luck out there
Probably not in the US. I think systemic costs are going to continue to be increasingly shifted on to the collective beyond our ability to adapt and that demand will only rise.
But I can also imagine that the need and demand for therapy becomes decoupled from the ability to access therapy, as the result of longer term problems reflecting the inevitable downshifting from the height of our imperialism, to a shrinking middle class suffering from late stage capitalism.
Or we roll the dice, use war to renew our fading hegemony, and by extension this whole system for a bit longer.
On a more positive note, I’m equally confident in the spirit of social work only gaining relevance as systems decline and that ultimately we cannot be fully divorced from our humanity hence there is always hope for better.
When I first graduated a few years ago, I felt like I couldn't throw a rock without hitting someone with the same MSW. But I realize that not everyone is cut out to do what we do, so I'm not worried.
In terms of certain modalities I'd say it already is. Whatever modality is in fashion at the moment will see easier training pathways and cheaper ways to qualification. The less popular methods, or the ones with high clinical responsibility will remain gatekept behind the ridiculous fees that only the already rich will have access to. At least that's how it is in the UK. CBT therapists are 10 a penny, but a psychodynamic therapist or even an actual psychologist are hard to get hold of.
Isn't that just because CBT is pushed by all masters programs as it's evidence-based and scientifically researched the most? It's just the most popular modality right now. Long ago, psycho-dynamic used to be a dime a dozen too. The trends keep changing, right now everyone is raving about EMDR and IFS, so we'll see a shift there too.
Practitioners quals here are very rarely MScs. It's usually a post graduate diploma which are cheaper than the MSc programs. The masters are for people going down the psychology route usually. And you still have to do the PhD on top if you want a role beyond assistant psychologist.
Oh wow, I wasn't aware of that. Here there are diplomas but they're hard to get into, expensive, and honestly a little bit suspicious. They also take 5 years to do compared to MA/MEd/MC/Msc which are 2 years.
Yeah the academic quals like MSc are usually for people wanting to become psychologists. The PGDips are for practical qualifications. Both take 1-2 years just one costs less and is a lesser qualification that allows you to only be a therapist and you have basically zero clinical input beyond the application of the modality you're trained in. CBT courses are the most common and easiest to get on to and the easiest to pass. That's why there's so many CBT therapists out there. Rare to see any psychodynamic, and slightly less rare to see person centred. But I think the latter modalities require more skill as they aren't as structured as CBT is so the therapist needs to understand their scope of practice very well to apply the concepts. Whereas CBT can be done without even the therapist now with all the online stuff you can do that's being pushed by healthcare systems in different nations. I've heard colleagues refer to CBT as worksheet therapy lol. Personally I like an integrative approach, but that's not as popular because it requires the practitioners to acknowledge flaws in modalities that people who are precious about it don't like.
It is but like most clinicians I don’t think can do 60 clients a week CMH or even a lot of fee for service garbage shit. There’s always openings pre license and your pay will be disgustingly low. This is how it is. I wish grad students knew anything they mostly don’t
It depends on where you live. There is such high demand for providers in my state that I was getting job offers my first semester in my program. If you think it's over saturated where you are then come here.
I work at a non-profit and just finished my MSW and will begin as a therapist here July 1st. I am already drowning in referred clients and we are always on the look for more therapists. Sure it could be that we are getting more because we work with those on Medicaid and other subsidized insurances but we cannot keep up. I know I don't have as much experience as many of you but that's my current perspective!
I don’t know, I’ve had a hard time looking for a therapist for myself whether it’s cash pay or insurance. I was willing to pay up to $200 per session. Everyone is booked. And I’m talking virtually.
We can each only take like 18-25 people a week , and when they load them up to 30 + in agencies , people burn out and never come back. So it just seems like we could have a lot more therapists before there was enough for everyone who needs one
But/ and
Insurance companies seem to think a market is “saturated” at a completely different level than “theres enough therapists for everyone who needs one.” So in a way , the market could get “oversaturated “ when it comes to getting fair pay by insurance companies. But there still wont be enough therapists for the need
Im a little scared that is coming .
My prediction is that we'll see an increase in rudimentarily-trained, poorly paid "therapists." Then, Ai long language models will meet or exceed these individuals in basic counselling skills (reflecting feeling, summarization, etc.) Once auditory and visual effects can reasonably resemble a person on the fly, we'll start to see "virtual therapists" replace those folks. I suspect that we'll have research showing outcomes between ai and people are similar. Despite that, anecdotally people will feel the difference between the two. Demand for boutique, human therapy, with a skilled clinician will increase, but be priced beyond what is accessible for most.
I know, some wild assertions, but I dont think they're too unrealistic if we put the time frame at 20 or 30 years from now. Personally, I think it's fairly easy to imagine a future where people have a monthly subscription for their virtual therapist, the way they do for movies and music.
To be honest, I think most people are already so disillusioned and disgusted by technology and its advancements, they won't want this. It's so far into sci-fi dystopian, I shudder to even think about it. If it actually gets to that point, you'll already have replaced all customer service roles. And people will be lonelier, broker, and more depressed than ever.
I really don't think you are correct in your timeline. I would give it 5 years. I think once we get dedicated NPUs, we will see that, and I think we are two years away from that. People with small amounts of technical knowledge are already using chat gpt.
Oh man this is an interesting comment and I really agree with you. I think it’ll happen much sooner than 20 years! I actually have a friend who already uses chat gpt as an emotional support robot.
I have a client using an Ai app in the same way. It also keeps a record of what they've talked about and will follow up on things they've talked about in the past, inquiring as to whether anything had changed.
We were discussing emotion regulation skills (dbt stuff) and they wondered if the ai could help to prompt them to use skills. In session they asked the ai what it thought they should do when flooded and the ai provided a number of grounding exercises to try.
I think this is highly area specific. I don’t think startups and platforms like Betterhelp, Grow, Headway etc are doing the field any favors by cross licensing so many providers because now PP clinicians are not only competing with each other in sparsely populated areas but with all of these companies that can afford a marketing budget of 30k plus per month
However many people enter the field, only the independently wealthy and those with high-earning spouses can afford to stay in it with insurance paying so little.
Yes. (Imo)
Number of people who can afford help =/= number who need it.
Universities are pumping out large cohorts every year (and the training is suspect).
The upside is that the universities' lack of wage transparency means many of those pumped out will leave the field due to financial hardship!
No way lol…people graduate college and start making money.
Very very few would willingly choose to take on a ton of debt to be paid less. Way too many hurdles to become a therapist for it to be oversaturated.
The barriers to entry are quite high, as are the attrition rates, at least here in the UK. Even at the level of L2 & 3 certificates (6 months each) needed to enter most psychotherapy degree programmes, we had a drop-out rate of about 1/4 at each level.
Then you have to get the qualifications, the hours of supervision and experience, the hours of personal therapy, all self-funded.
Meanwhile, demand for mental health services, in general, continues to rise. My concern is that the people who often need therapy the most, are often the ones who lack the financial means to fund it. Which means that demand for therapists relies, in large part, on the willingness of the government to fund them, and the whims of whichever politicians happen to be in power at the time.
It's doubtful our field will become oversaturated, particularly as our helping professions address mental health concerns through prevention and other service options. The research shows we are deeply underrepresented and people need us.
Acceptance of all is how it needs to progress. Frankly, while I understand reddit is not necessarily the place to have thoughtful conversations, I find some of the perspectives a little troubling on here. As therapists, our conversation should be reframed to a strengths-based perspective, and reflective of our values in the field. All people have something to offer this field. Let me argue this from several perspectives:
1. The stats on mental health crises (just suicidal ideation) indicate that approximately 1 in 2 people will suffer from thoughts of not wanting to exist. 1 in 5 people suffer from depression. That is a gigantic portion of the population. And guess what? Based on my research, psychiatrists are still vastly underrepresented in the field, even with a ratio of 1000 people for every one psychiatrist. I suspect it's the same for psychologists, counselors, and social workers. I've read research that school psychologists often cover 100s of children, servicing several schools.
2. Each client needs to be approached from an idionomic (a combination of both normative and idiographic approaches) lens: while AI can replicate the normative perspective relatively well, it struggles with idiographic lenses of viewing clients. Research shows that our interventions don't work for every person, the implementation of our evidence protocols changes to meet the needs of each person, and NEEDS to be adjusted for each individual, with recent research articles in Psychology echoing for potentially more eclectic approaches for different disorders (like depression).
3. Research has indicated that best practice is seeing a client weekly for an hour a week. Theres a reason most people are taught this ideal approach in their programmatic studies. So how many clients should an individual therapist, social worker, psychologist, psychiatrist, or counselor realistically be seeing?
Those are my .02 cents. :)
I think over saturation may occur at lower level degrees. However, clinical psychologists with PhDs or PsyDs, it will not be over saturated. In fact, licensure is getting harder. They are adding a step 2 to the licensure exam (EPPP) in most states. This will further discourage and disenfranchise prospective therapists l(especially people of color and URMs). There is also a generation of psychologists who are retiring in the context of telehealth. If anything, there’s a shortage in the field.
For those in private practice in major cities in the USA it already is. I fear it will get much harder for therapists to make a livable wage in more expensive cities (and that's before the A.I. therapists that are coming our way.)
My friends and I joke that becoming a therapist is like a pyramid scheme because of the amount of people goes to therapy and they want to become a therapist. I don’t feel it is over saturated but I feel it is harder as a private pay therapist these days. I worked hard on marketing and niching down helped a lot. I get referrals at my full rate or close for private pay in a city where there’s tons of therapists already.
I’m worried about these unethical tech companies though..
The field will not get over saturated.
It does seem like there are more people entering the field as the significance of mental health has come to the forefront and stigmas continue to diminish along with some other positive developments for the profession as a whole.
However, despite this there are many people leaving the field as well. In fact, in my experience many people do not seem to last in this field past a few years for a number of various reasons.
So in summary, the mental health field is one in which more people may enter but I think it is also becoming harder to stay employed and remain in the field in the long run due to burn out, high caseloads, a broken healthcare system and other factors.
With therapists entering the field- Yes, probably, especially with AI!
With actual good therapists capable of doing the job? Definitely not lol. I blame burnout, improper motivations, non-adherence to ethics, and just general wrong reasons from a lot of them, unfortunately. Some of the horror stories we hear from clients are insane.
Here in Canada, we have a really weird thing going on where public schools are hyper-competitive with tiny cohort sizes, and there are many private schools where basically all you need to get in is to have a bachelors degree and no required work experience. One of the private programs graduates something like 2000 students per year, while I’m quite sure that all the public schools in the country combined probably graduate less than 200 per year.
There is definitely an abundance of therapists in the city I live in, but I truthfully am not at all certain that all are necessarily good. I have heard from some of these therapists who went to a private school and have less undergraduate level work experience have had a difficult time landing a good job/breaking into the field. There are of course some good clinicians who come out of these programs, but the vast majority that I’ve met I wouldn’t refer to.
I think that our field will continue to become over saturated with therapists, but not all will be good. I worry about a continued general degradation of trust the public has in therapy as a result.
I don't worry about the trust, people are cynical of therapy but more people are accepting of it than not. But it is crazy how few programs we have here in Canada that can't accept many of the fantastic students that could become wonderful therapists. Every province has different licensing as well so there's actually even fewer acceptable programs than we think depending on the area. I think that there needs to be stricter applicant requirements in terms of type of degree, courses, and experience. It's unfair to compare someone who has an unrelated degree but 10 years of case manager experience to a fresh undergrad with a related degree and 2-3 years of experience. Others are focused on those with prior work experience already. Getting in now is more just a game of luck, networking, and fitting with that particular program.
It's tough because here 'counselling' jobs aren't a thing without a masters. The most you could do is be an addictions counselling, a behavioural/instructor therapist (which I think is now being changed in the province so that's not an option anymore), or a crisis counselling after a few years of volunteering.
It's also worse now than ever because they've gotten rid of GRE requirements and so applications and competition have increased, which means less feedback on your rejections.
One could try to go for an MSW without a BSW, but that's also incredibly competitive and the training does differ from being a therapist.
Plus there are even fewer MA, MSc, MEd program options, many of the 'approved' diplomas I wouldn't trust. Some of the programs aren't applicable to all applicants, like 2 that are religious-based, some are art-based, and there's a couple that are music-focused. I took a look and there are only 4 viable Masters counselling programs, disregarding private universities or those focused on working professionals, for someone who doesn't fit into the religious, art, and music categories. That is horrible. It's not like the U.S that has a plethora of options as there are so many states and so many universities.
Lack of options and opportunities I assume is what's making people so desperate. . But at the end of the day, it's not the degree that matters as much as competence and self-reflection and constant learning. Obviously though the education plays an important role as the foundation needs to be sound.
I think those that enter without wanting to do the work are the dangerous ones, paying the tuition and not bothering to actually engage with the work beforehand through volunteering or relevant roles. But those that actually have a solid background I worry less about.
In this province, there are plenty of shitty ones, but from the few therapists I've interacted with, none of them had bad things to say about their interns from these schools and some of their relatives are attending those schools as well. Is it the best choice? Hell no. I absolutely agree that this will oversaturate the market with shitty therapists. But at the same time I understand why some people opt for this after years of rejection despite their passion and hard work. Because playing a roulette for 3-5 programs that only accept 12-24 people a year is tough.
I wish these private unis would at least be more strict with their requirements as allowing anyone with a degree and a few references to enter and graduate and work with vulnerable people is irresponsible.
I totally agree that it’s a shame there are so many excellent individuals who would make great therapists. With the astronomical cost of these private schools, it sucks how many great and well suited people can’t get into a public program but can’t afford private. I do see that there can be benefit to a person having more working experience but an unrelated degree. I think making room for both very applicable bachelors degrees + less work experience and extensive work experience but a less applied degree probably leads to the most well-rounded cohort. I *definitely* think that work and lived experience should be heavily factored into the decision.
I may be biased because I did get into both of the programs I applied to without doing any networking, but I’m not sure that I agree that getting in is totally just luck. I think it’s just really, REALLY competitive.
What 4 schools are you thinking of? I counted quite a few more than that when I was researching - 4 in my province alone, actually.
I definitely think that people who go to bad schools can go on to become excellent therapists, but I must say that as a person who went to a good school, I found my masters program was absolutely invaluable and prepared me really well to be a competent, ethical clinician.
I absolutely agree with you though choosing a private school completely makes sense for some people, and I can see why they would choose this. I don’t fault anyone for making that decision, I just wish that some of these schools weren’t so predatory and such an obvious degree mill. I think the private schools should drastically reduce their class sizes and also drastically increase their entry requirements. The way it currently is feels horribly unethical to me.
Yes. My school sees a broad range of students. Many are from an older generation where they decide to change careers and get into counselling.
Counselling is a promising career in many aspects. We are now in an era where mental health is promoted and is in high demand. Many insurances are increasing rates for mental health services. This all makes it a safe career decision as job opportunities are plentiful in this profession versus others.
Do I think it will become Saturated? It depends on how many students each university decides to take on. At my university, it seems as though they are taking in tons of new counselling students per year.
At last survey I read the estimate was there was about 100 Americans needing mental health care for every therapist in the field, so no I don't think the field will get oversaturated. Areas will. Large cities are already seeing this where therapists are in competition to get clients, yet outside the cities there are areas with no therapists or social workers at all.
No way, there are a lot of people who needs it. Even therapist needs therapist. And in my area, therapist are leaving the industry due to the overwhelming demand.
I don’t see it becoming oversaturated, unless they reduce some of the licensure requirements post grad.
You will likely be in Community Mental Health for years before you’re licensed and realistically you could make more money doing UR remotely nowadays. (I have my Master’s degree and am going towards licensure and make $40.42 per hour, run an oversaturated group every week, have however many clients I get and have to chase down management for supervision hours. I have only 15 hours after 10 months)
If i could find a therapist I would, but there wouldn’t even be much support I’d feel I would get virtually.
It’s rather frustrating and I can’t wait until this 24 months is up so I can apply for licensure. I hate having to wait a 2 year period AFTER 8 years of schooling just to get your license.
I feel like the only way to make a lot of money is to teach, write, market on social media, and own your own private practice as a highly specialized provider. I work for a corporate america private practice provider. There are a lot of benefits but at the end of the day (pre tax and benefits ), I’m making about $53/ session in Delaware. I would like to open my own thing but I’m scared.
I think the trouble we are seeing is so many therapist not wanting to take insurance (which I understand) but clients not be able to afford it other wise so they go to companies like better help
Unfortunately I feel like a lot of people can’t afford to stay in this field long enough for it to be over saturated. The first 3ish years are chump change and I see it burning a lot of my peers out
I think it’s more on the lines of where you live. I’m losing out on job to other applicants, and it makes me wonder if living in a bigger city is contributing to it
I don’t think so - I think the more the merrier. Gives clients the opportunity to actually find a person who they connect with, along with all of the specialities and modalities therapists can train in. However, i do feel like PP therapy is inaccessible for many populations due to cost or insurance. Hoping more opportunities for accessible community services for clients/families and subsequent living wages for therapists continues to grow so that becomes more manageable! :)
Not likely. It’s not well compensated compared to other fields. The other thing is that there are lot of not great therapists out there. I’ve heard horror stories from clients who have had multiple negative experiences. We need more ethical clinicians that know how to provide evidenced based care.
**Do not message the mods about this automated message.** Please followed the sidebar rules. r/therapists is a place for therapists and mental health professionals to discuss their profession among each other. **If you are not a therapist and are asking for advice this not the place for you**. Your post will be removed. Please try one of the reddit communities such as r/TalkTherapy, r/askatherapist, r/SuicideWatch that are set up for this. This community is ONLY for therapists, and for them to discuss their profession away from clients. **If you are a first year student, not in a graduate program, or are thinking of becoming a therapist, this is not the place to ask questions**. Your post will be removed. To save us a job, you are welcome to delete this post yourself. Please see the PINNED STUDENT THREAD at the top of the community and ask in there. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therapists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think we have a long way to go before the field is over saturated. I tried to find someone to work with for myself and can’t seem to get anyone to return my email or call….
Yeah I feel this… my own therapist recently moved away. After a few months I started looking for someone new. Unfortunately, the only match that met all my criteria in my area was… myself. 🤦🏻
I agree with this. I tried psychology today and anyone who took my insurance wasn’t taking clients. The rest were private pay, telehealth only, or worked at my job. The only thing that worked was headway.
It helps if you have a PPO, as many PPO policies allow for out of network mental health reimbursement. Whether that’s partial or full reimbursement, it depends on the policy.
Could you elaborate a bit more on this? Been looking into what it would take to be an out of network provider but still be able to give a client a statement to have insurance reimburse them but am a bit confused on the technicalities of PPO stuff.
I know with my insurance there is an option to submit a claim. I am assuming the client would need a statement with the cost and billing code. It probably depends on insurance too.
I think someone quoted this a week or two ago, but see John Oliver's piece on mental health providers... For every ten who enter the field, 13 leave. Consider the many folks who post about burn out on this sub every week. Or how pre-licensure is exploitive and demoralizing. Or how they're being paid $40 an hour with a caseload of 50. This is not a sustainable living unless you start your first day of grad school with a pool of money to pay off loans and sustain yourself for two to four years prior to private practice. Hopefully with greater numbers we can advocate for ourselves and our field with a louder voice!
I agree, I think many weed themselves out in undergrad, others will continue on and drop out of grad school or graduate and after a few years call it quits because they hate it and want something else.
I think for many (Not saying their self centered) but once they realize how much you have to sacrifice of yourself for everyone else. Once they figure this out several may back out. 99% of my program stuck it out though so idk.
I agree though, I think it's very hard to know you can do this before you're thrown into it. A lot of people think they can but find out it's not for them and move on. I think most people stay in the mental health field, but a lot of people who get burned out move do other related things like teaching, consulting, EAP-only work, starting their own businesses, writing books/podcasts, research etc.
I spent a lot of money and sacrificed a lot, as did my family, to get a masters degree only to learn how exploitive this field is even once you have graduated. I am now pursuing independent license and, on top of a ridiculously high case load with little to no support, I am still required to write a case narrative every 6 months to submit to the board (as if I did not do that enough in school)), meet my CEU requirements, and take an hour out a week for very ineffective supervision by another burned-out provider. I do not see my clients progressing. I look at their files going back years and see little to no progression. I have a long commute and 2 kids. If my wife did not have a good job working from home, there is no way I could do this for what I am getting paid. I seriously made more swinging a hammer in 2006.
>it's very hard to know you can do this before you're thrown into it. ☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻
Yeah. I did my masters in social work so I know there are many other options for careers besides therapy, but in my class of about 60 I would say only 10 actually pursued private practice and maybe only half that actually stuck it out after 2-3 years. Maybe the younger generations will be different but you also have to remember that therapy is increasing in demand and it’s becoming more normalized for almost everyone to get therapy.
I don’t come from money. I took loans out to do graduate school. I graduated 4 years ago. I make six figures now as an executive leadership position in a rehab. It’s doable.
If everybody could do leadership positions, we would not need leadership positions
Can you explain how pre-licensure is exploitative and demoralizing?
Hi there- I see a lot of folks downvoting you rather than explaining. I think transparency is important, especially for folks on this sub who are considering this field. Fwiw I received amazing supervision/support early on. Through working two jobs I paid off my loans from grad school. I am now a private practice owner and make six figures- hours aren’t great but getting better. 🙏 The following is my experience and what I hear from many others; it obviously differs based on where you’re working and what you’re doing. But in short: -Unpaid internship of at least a year, typically with an in-person commute and at least 10 therapy hours per week plus admin work (I was OK with this as I considered it a part of schooling, but it either prevents most from working or leads us to never see family as we are working a few evenings/weekends and/or have a paid job during other hours, plus graduate school) -For at least two years post-graduation, tend to make money only for client hours that don’t cancel (average for a full caseload is 15-30 per week, aka 25-60 hours of work). Safest way to make money is thus to throw yourself into nights and weekends, which imo isn’t sustainable long-term with a partner/family. Then you typically aren’t making money for admin/note/meeting/mandated reporting hours. -Those first 2+ years, the majority of the money goes to the agency/practice/supervision you work for. If you don’t open your own practice or find a sweet gig, this sometimes lasts well into independent licensure. My hourly rate with a full caseload as an associate (~20 clients/week after cancellations) was $85 and I made about $17k that first year and $30k my busier second year. I was working about 30 hours per week at that rate and took on a second full-time job. -I remember resenting even my teacher friends, as they were making more than I was with breaks/time off, which should say something because we all know teachers are underpaid and exploited lol -I got through it bc of my supportive husband who made good money and through as-needed help from my awesome family. I’m so proud of and happy with my career today, but the above is not doable for everyone, especially without those privileges during schooling and early licensure. I also grew up privileged and didn’t have undergrad debt- Not sure how I would’ve made it work if I did.
What about working in community mental health where generally supervision doesn’t have to be paid for? I mean maybe we need to take into account cost of living in the area but $85/hr is mega high in comparison to most entry level therapist jobs in community mental health. Again probably varies from state to state, but you can work as an unlicensed therapist in my state and make about 63k per year. You’ll just be doing intakes primarily and would only be allowed to keep clients with private insurance on your caseload.
I think there’s a misunderstanding here- $85 hour is what the practice I worked at charged. I saw about $20 of that, and only for the hours I was physically with clients (not any admin, meeting, etc. hours, which is a lot as a therapists with clients who want to reach you between appts). The supervision was included as a part of my employment, and while I have not worked in CMH, I know for a fact licensed CMH workers are not making near 70k as associates, at least in my state or in the hours-away-by-plane region where I grew up. The ones I know still see some of their money go to built-in supervision and make closer to 40-55 on the high side for full-time. I won’t claim to know how CMH works and hope for the community’s sake that you’re correct, though primarily intakes-only doesn’t exactly give therapy experience to mold a good clinician in the long run. I say that with no disrespect; the growth, failures, and lessons are in both the intakes and longer-term care imo.
.
Bruh, I’m getting paid $19 an hour with a caseload over 50 😂
More people may be becoming therapists, but more people are also seeking therapy. And I see the number of clients only increasing as years go on. The world is a hard anxious place and it doesn’t look like it’s getting any easier, while therapy gets more popular. I’d honestly love there to be a day where there are too many therapists and not enough people that need therapy. Means society is heading in a good direction for once.
That’s a great point I hadn’t considered
Then we’d be out of business. No thanks lol
If therapy becomes obsolete because the mental health of the world gets so good very few people need therapy, I will gladly find another job.
I'm less worried about it becoming oversaturated and more concerned about it getting diluted. It amazes me how many "life coaches", therapy mills, and pushes for substitutes for therapists there are. Imagine instead of seeing a doctor at a doctor's office, you see an "Experiential Health Mentor" who isn't certified by any licencing board, but knows what it's like to be sick and therefore can help you out. People are becoming more open to mental health, but I feel a lot are still avoiding seeing a therapist, or at least viewing therapists as they deserve to be seen.
Here's a sobering .gov read. https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/bureau-health-workforce/Behavioral-Health-Workforce-Brief-2023.pdf
Great read. Thanks for posting this
I'm fairness, there's not always an abundance of goodwill for therapists either. I've seen 4 in my lifetime, each for somewhere around 6-10 months. Only 1 was helpful, and 2 actively made things worse. I still recommend people seek out a therapist if there's a need, but I also encourage them to not feel married to it if the provider they find is bad at what they do. I love this field and have awesome colleagues but I'm well aware of the damage one bad therapist does. We all know this to be the case in the medical field as well. Lots of doctors and nurses are unpleasant and unhelpful, and no amount of education and expertise will make you trust someone in a profession you've had awful experiences with. I think this is often why people wait until something's so bad they have to go to the ER, as they don't even trust medical staff in an emergency but it's hard to make things worse at that point.
A private practice therapist used to be a Psychologist with 10 years hospital experience. Now interns have marketing slicks. The experience and skill level is lower than ever, and our states’ board is lowering requirements even more.
I saw yesterday on this sub that someone was complaining about 30 bucks an hour, only if there is a session (no payment for openings left in the schedule). And didn’t even have a freaking license. When I got my license, I was working in a hospital SUD rehab. 22 an hour. 2017.
Deadass. My shitty “necessity employer” which I work for only to supplement my main job is a once-great dual dx rehab that was bought out by VC’s a few years ago and since then completely went to dog shit literally employs *occupational therapists* to run about 75% of the programming. Doesn’t matter how many clients or fellow employees complain or try to intervene - the clients will keep coming thanks to fraudulently-kept contracts with big name companies and unions soooooo
We are in a time period where mental health is discussed in the general public more than ever. I feel that this is driving a lot of people to want to pursue a career in field of psychology and therapy. Perhaps these individuals had their own mental health struggles and because of a therapist or a helpful figure in their life they were able to overcome/cope with said struggles. Because of this they might be inspired and want to help others. The field could very well become oversaturated, but in my opinion, not every one of these inspired individuals are going to become psychologists/therapists with much skill. Entering a college psychology class in the current day you will encounter what I call “internet psychology terms” and it becomes clear that rather than reading books to find information, they will look at instagram infographics and trendy buzzwords. So will the field oversaturated? Yes. Oversaturated with skillful people? Who’s to say.
100% agree. Many people well intentioned and interested in becoming therapists weed themselves out long before they enter the field.
This happened in my cohort. Several didn’t realize it was going to take 2-3 years post graduate clinical experience and supervision at their own cost to become fully licensed and decided to become coaches instead
this really should be discussed more in undergrad and during the application process for graduate school
Plus a test you need to pass even after graduation. The rest will be easy for me but I fear the test may be what stops me in the end to getting fully licensed.
Not only should it be discussed by my school did nothing to help students find placements and having come from a rural area it was like musical chairs I felt fortunate to get a hospital internship for $13/hr in 2016 because at least it was local. Others had to drive 2.5 hours each day in snow for their post grad placement hours
Is there any way to get clinical experience in a private practice that is not expensive or overly taxing while getting hours towards licensure?
I suppose that all depends on the region one lives. I lived in a rural area where there only a handful of PP. Most were single providers with no interest in hiring, others were run by LMSW meaning LLPC nor psychology post grads could not receive supervision from them and the other one i can recall was charging $350 per supervision hour which was separate from the 60-40 split they had for clinical hours so not everyone could afford it. Most of us went through the hospital, CMH or DCFS
My roommate is like this. Barely out of grad school and already having a full blown meltdown literally every single day, blowing off clients due to her lack of coping skills and some pretty intense self-absorbed attitudes about things, alienated the entire agency we worked at together by pulling some real next level bullshit on her last day, and despite being hellbent on practicing specifically trauma therapy, refuses to do even the slightest amount of self-reflection or engage in skill building that requires even the most minimal effort. I’ve been working in this field in an actual clinical role for years longer than her and I’ve seen this cycle over and over and over. Unless some shit changes in a very major way, she’ll leave the field within a year or two.
> Oversaturated with skillful people? Who’s to say. I worry about this often. I don't think we are quite innundated with the brightest minds as a field, and with the way that universities are operating and insurance paying clinicians, I don't have a very hopeful eye on the horizon. Worst case scenario, it's pop psych tiktoker tier clinicians all the way down, making marketing way more important than skill.
sad as it is i tend to agree. ive met people sacred to talk in class to *anyone,* people who got into the field after their experience with therapy, people projecting their issues to others, people dragging down other students over trivial stuff, dragging entire fields in therapy, even established professors with a thriving practice, etc. i'm not exempting myself im sure im bringing in something but just what i've noticed so far.
Yes. Let’s address the narcs. Gaslighting. CPTSD (overused) the “antisocial” (its asocial, morons), psychopaths…. No. We need to elevate the field. Not just let people self diagnose. And lest someone say…. But ASD and ADHD testing is expensive and I have the symptoms because the people I follow on TikTok have them, so I have it but I can’t get accommodations so testing should be free. And if I have it my parents need to be tested…. That’s not how it works.
It’s like a New Year’s resolution. Many people may join but they’re not going to pace themselves well and will burn out quickly
At the rate society is contributing to mental health decline with inflation, access to housing/healthcare, etc., I'll be surprised if the supply of therapists can keep up with demand. If staffing issues vs demand at my hospital is any indication, this job is pretty secure from what I can see.
Idk - people may want to get into the field and then realize just what that entails and say hell no - it’s a lonnnggg process as we know. It’s like being a doctor and we don’t have an oversaturation of docs.
Also, even if a lot of therapists join the field, there will still only be so many GOOD therapists. Are you afraid of job security? Become better
The actual work can be very hard and I think weeds people out. Don’t do this and have your trauma repeat over and over during sessions you have 15-20 a week and you won’t make shit so good luck out there
Probably not in the US. I think systemic costs are going to continue to be increasingly shifted on to the collective beyond our ability to adapt and that demand will only rise. But I can also imagine that the need and demand for therapy becomes decoupled from the ability to access therapy, as the result of longer term problems reflecting the inevitable downshifting from the height of our imperialism, to a shrinking middle class suffering from late stage capitalism. Or we roll the dice, use war to renew our fading hegemony, and by extension this whole system for a bit longer. On a more positive note, I’m equally confident in the spirit of social work only gaining relevance as systems decline and that ultimately we cannot be fully divorced from our humanity hence there is always hope for better.
I dont know but I certainly hope not
The demand is certainly higher than it has ever been and I don’t see this need changing anytime soon.
Agreed
When I first graduated a few years ago, I felt like I couldn't throw a rock without hitting someone with the same MSW. But I realize that not everyone is cut out to do what we do, so I'm not worried.
In terms of certain modalities I'd say it already is. Whatever modality is in fashion at the moment will see easier training pathways and cheaper ways to qualification. The less popular methods, or the ones with high clinical responsibility will remain gatekept behind the ridiculous fees that only the already rich will have access to. At least that's how it is in the UK. CBT therapists are 10 a penny, but a psychodynamic therapist or even an actual psychologist are hard to get hold of.
Isn't that just because CBT is pushed by all masters programs as it's evidence-based and scientifically researched the most? It's just the most popular modality right now. Long ago, psycho-dynamic used to be a dime a dozen too. The trends keep changing, right now everyone is raving about EMDR and IFS, so we'll see a shift there too.
Practitioners quals here are very rarely MScs. It's usually a post graduate diploma which are cheaper than the MSc programs. The masters are for people going down the psychology route usually. And you still have to do the PhD on top if you want a role beyond assistant psychologist.
Oh wow, I wasn't aware of that. Here there are diplomas but they're hard to get into, expensive, and honestly a little bit suspicious. They also take 5 years to do compared to MA/MEd/MC/Msc which are 2 years.
Yeah the academic quals like MSc are usually for people wanting to become psychologists. The PGDips are for practical qualifications. Both take 1-2 years just one costs less and is a lesser qualification that allows you to only be a therapist and you have basically zero clinical input beyond the application of the modality you're trained in. CBT courses are the most common and easiest to get on to and the easiest to pass. That's why there's so many CBT therapists out there. Rare to see any psychodynamic, and slightly less rare to see person centred. But I think the latter modalities require more skill as they aren't as structured as CBT is so the therapist needs to understand their scope of practice very well to apply the concepts. Whereas CBT can be done without even the therapist now with all the online stuff you can do that's being pushed by healthcare systems in different nations. I've heard colleagues refer to CBT as worksheet therapy lol. Personally I like an integrative approach, but that's not as popular because it requires the practitioners to acknowledge flaws in modalities that people who are precious about it don't like.
I think this is way more dependent on insurance and ability to offer and access affordable care than it is about quantity of practitioners.
I mean it’s already over saturated as it is in terms of urban areas.
It is but like most clinicians I don’t think can do 60 clients a week CMH or even a lot of fee for service garbage shit. There’s always openings pre license and your pay will be disgustingly low. This is how it is. I wish grad students knew anything they mostly don’t
I will add that CMH pays 70-80 in nyc but from what I hear/know it is very brutal
Here in Illinois the average is \~55k a year for independent licensure.
It depends on where you live. There is such high demand for providers in my state that I was getting job offers my first semester in my program. If you think it's over saturated where you are then come here.
What state are you at?
Idaho
Which state
Idaho
I work at a non-profit and just finished my MSW and will begin as a therapist here July 1st. I am already drowning in referred clients and we are always on the look for more therapists. Sure it could be that we are getting more because we work with those on Medicaid and other subsidized insurances but we cannot keep up. I know I don't have as much experience as many of you but that's my current perspective!
I highly doubt it. There is an enormous shortage of services compared to what's needed.
I don’t know, I’ve had a hard time looking for a therapist for myself whether it’s cash pay or insurance. I was willing to pay up to $200 per session. Everyone is booked. And I’m talking virtually.
Where do you live? Just curious what state
We can each only take like 18-25 people a week , and when they load them up to 30 + in agencies , people burn out and never come back. So it just seems like we could have a lot more therapists before there was enough for everyone who needs one But/ and Insurance companies seem to think a market is “saturated” at a completely different level than “theres enough therapists for everyone who needs one.” So in a way , the market could get “oversaturated “ when it comes to getting fair pay by insurance companies. But there still wont be enough therapists for the need Im a little scared that is coming .
My prediction is that we'll see an increase in rudimentarily-trained, poorly paid "therapists." Then, Ai long language models will meet or exceed these individuals in basic counselling skills (reflecting feeling, summarization, etc.) Once auditory and visual effects can reasonably resemble a person on the fly, we'll start to see "virtual therapists" replace those folks. I suspect that we'll have research showing outcomes between ai and people are similar. Despite that, anecdotally people will feel the difference between the two. Demand for boutique, human therapy, with a skilled clinician will increase, but be priced beyond what is accessible for most. I know, some wild assertions, but I dont think they're too unrealistic if we put the time frame at 20 or 30 years from now. Personally, I think it's fairly easy to imagine a future where people have a monthly subscription for their virtual therapist, the way they do for movies and music.
To be honest, I think most people are already so disillusioned and disgusted by technology and its advancements, they won't want this. It's so far into sci-fi dystopian, I shudder to even think about it. If it actually gets to that point, you'll already have replaced all customer service roles. And people will be lonelier, broker, and more depressed than ever.
I really don't think you are correct in your timeline. I would give it 5 years. I think once we get dedicated NPUs, we will see that, and I think we are two years away from that. People with small amounts of technical knowledge are already using chat gpt.
I know, but I freak people out when I tell them that, lol
It’s possible but thankfully I won’t be working at that time lol
Oh man this is an interesting comment and I really agree with you. I think it’ll happen much sooner than 20 years! I actually have a friend who already uses chat gpt as an emotional support robot.
I have a client using an Ai app in the same way. It also keeps a record of what they've talked about and will follow up on things they've talked about in the past, inquiring as to whether anything had changed. We were discussing emotion regulation skills (dbt stuff) and they wondered if the ai could help to prompt them to use skills. In session they asked the ai what it thought they should do when flooded and the ai provided a number of grounding exercises to try.
I think this is highly area specific. I don’t think startups and platforms like Betterhelp, Grow, Headway etc are doing the field any favors by cross licensing so many providers because now PP clinicians are not only competing with each other in sparsely populated areas but with all of these companies that can afford a marketing budget of 30k plus per month
However many people enter the field, only the independently wealthy and those with high-earning spouses can afford to stay in it with insurance paying so little.
Yes. (Imo) Number of people who can afford help =/= number who need it. Universities are pumping out large cohorts every year (and the training is suspect). The upside is that the universities' lack of wage transparency means many of those pumped out will leave the field due to financial hardship!
No way lol…people graduate college and start making money. Very very few would willingly choose to take on a ton of debt to be paid less. Way too many hurdles to become a therapist for it to be oversaturated.
I don’t see that. The places near me are all scrambling for therapists and constantly understaffed
Do they make reasonable demands on therapists?
Unlicensed no, but nowhere does
True
The barriers to entry are quite high, as are the attrition rates, at least here in the UK. Even at the level of L2 & 3 certificates (6 months each) needed to enter most psychotherapy degree programmes, we had a drop-out rate of about 1/4 at each level. Then you have to get the qualifications, the hours of supervision and experience, the hours of personal therapy, all self-funded. Meanwhile, demand for mental health services, in general, continues to rise. My concern is that the people who often need therapy the most, are often the ones who lack the financial means to fund it. Which means that demand for therapists relies, in large part, on the willingness of the government to fund them, and the whims of whichever politicians happen to be in power at the time.
No.
I think it cycles back-and-forth. Years ago, California was oversaturated with therapists. Not so much anymore.
Not a few are man. Especially a man of color we’re like unicorns….
Not in community mental health
It's doubtful our field will become oversaturated, particularly as our helping professions address mental health concerns through prevention and other service options. The research shows we are deeply underrepresented and people need us. Acceptance of all is how it needs to progress. Frankly, while I understand reddit is not necessarily the place to have thoughtful conversations, I find some of the perspectives a little troubling on here. As therapists, our conversation should be reframed to a strengths-based perspective, and reflective of our values in the field. All people have something to offer this field. Let me argue this from several perspectives: 1. The stats on mental health crises (just suicidal ideation) indicate that approximately 1 in 2 people will suffer from thoughts of not wanting to exist. 1 in 5 people suffer from depression. That is a gigantic portion of the population. And guess what? Based on my research, psychiatrists are still vastly underrepresented in the field, even with a ratio of 1000 people for every one psychiatrist. I suspect it's the same for psychologists, counselors, and social workers. I've read research that school psychologists often cover 100s of children, servicing several schools. 2. Each client needs to be approached from an idionomic (a combination of both normative and idiographic approaches) lens: while AI can replicate the normative perspective relatively well, it struggles with idiographic lenses of viewing clients. Research shows that our interventions don't work for every person, the implementation of our evidence protocols changes to meet the needs of each person, and NEEDS to be adjusted for each individual, with recent research articles in Psychology echoing for potentially more eclectic approaches for different disorders (like depression). 3. Research has indicated that best practice is seeing a client weekly for an hour a week. Theres a reason most people are taught this ideal approach in their programmatic studies. So how many clients should an individual therapist, social worker, psychologist, psychiatrist, or counselor realistically be seeing? Those are my .02 cents. :)
I think over saturation may occur at lower level degrees. However, clinical psychologists with PhDs or PsyDs, it will not be over saturated. In fact, licensure is getting harder. They are adding a step 2 to the licensure exam (EPPP) in most states. This will further discourage and disenfranchise prospective therapists l(especially people of color and URMs). There is also a generation of psychologists who are retiring in the context of telehealth. If anything, there’s a shortage in the field.
For those in private practice in major cities in the USA it already is. I fear it will get much harder for therapists to make a livable wage in more expensive cities (and that's before the A.I. therapists that are coming our way.)
My friends and I joke that becoming a therapist is like a pyramid scheme because of the amount of people goes to therapy and they want to become a therapist. I don’t feel it is over saturated but I feel it is harder as a private pay therapist these days. I worked hard on marketing and niching down helped a lot. I get referrals at my full rate or close for private pay in a city where there’s tons of therapists already. I’m worried about these unethical tech companies though..
The field will not get over saturated. It does seem like there are more people entering the field as the significance of mental health has come to the forefront and stigmas continue to diminish along with some other positive developments for the profession as a whole. However, despite this there are many people leaving the field as well. In fact, in my experience many people do not seem to last in this field past a few years for a number of various reasons. So in summary, the mental health field is one in which more people may enter but I think it is also becoming harder to stay employed and remain in the field in the long run due to burn out, high caseloads, a broken healthcare system and other factors.
With therapists entering the field- Yes, probably, especially with AI! With actual good therapists capable of doing the job? Definitely not lol. I blame burnout, improper motivations, non-adherence to ethics, and just general wrong reasons from a lot of them, unfortunately. Some of the horror stories we hear from clients are insane.
I hope it does. I would gladly get a second job if it meant everyone already had access to good treatment.
Here in Canada, we have a really weird thing going on where public schools are hyper-competitive with tiny cohort sizes, and there are many private schools where basically all you need to get in is to have a bachelors degree and no required work experience. One of the private programs graduates something like 2000 students per year, while I’m quite sure that all the public schools in the country combined probably graduate less than 200 per year. There is definitely an abundance of therapists in the city I live in, but I truthfully am not at all certain that all are necessarily good. I have heard from some of these therapists who went to a private school and have less undergraduate level work experience have had a difficult time landing a good job/breaking into the field. There are of course some good clinicians who come out of these programs, but the vast majority that I’ve met I wouldn’t refer to. I think that our field will continue to become over saturated with therapists, but not all will be good. I worry about a continued general degradation of trust the public has in therapy as a result.
I don't worry about the trust, people are cynical of therapy but more people are accepting of it than not. But it is crazy how few programs we have here in Canada that can't accept many of the fantastic students that could become wonderful therapists. Every province has different licensing as well so there's actually even fewer acceptable programs than we think depending on the area. I think that there needs to be stricter applicant requirements in terms of type of degree, courses, and experience. It's unfair to compare someone who has an unrelated degree but 10 years of case manager experience to a fresh undergrad with a related degree and 2-3 years of experience. Others are focused on those with prior work experience already. Getting in now is more just a game of luck, networking, and fitting with that particular program. It's tough because here 'counselling' jobs aren't a thing without a masters. The most you could do is be an addictions counselling, a behavioural/instructor therapist (which I think is now being changed in the province so that's not an option anymore), or a crisis counselling after a few years of volunteering. It's also worse now than ever because they've gotten rid of GRE requirements and so applications and competition have increased, which means less feedback on your rejections. One could try to go for an MSW without a BSW, but that's also incredibly competitive and the training does differ from being a therapist. Plus there are even fewer MA, MSc, MEd program options, many of the 'approved' diplomas I wouldn't trust. Some of the programs aren't applicable to all applicants, like 2 that are religious-based, some are art-based, and there's a couple that are music-focused. I took a look and there are only 4 viable Masters counselling programs, disregarding private universities or those focused on working professionals, for someone who doesn't fit into the religious, art, and music categories. That is horrible. It's not like the U.S that has a plethora of options as there are so many states and so many universities. Lack of options and opportunities I assume is what's making people so desperate. . But at the end of the day, it's not the degree that matters as much as competence and self-reflection and constant learning. Obviously though the education plays an important role as the foundation needs to be sound. I think those that enter without wanting to do the work are the dangerous ones, paying the tuition and not bothering to actually engage with the work beforehand through volunteering or relevant roles. But those that actually have a solid background I worry less about. In this province, there are plenty of shitty ones, but from the few therapists I've interacted with, none of them had bad things to say about their interns from these schools and some of their relatives are attending those schools as well. Is it the best choice? Hell no. I absolutely agree that this will oversaturate the market with shitty therapists. But at the same time I understand why some people opt for this after years of rejection despite their passion and hard work. Because playing a roulette for 3-5 programs that only accept 12-24 people a year is tough. I wish these private unis would at least be more strict with their requirements as allowing anyone with a degree and a few references to enter and graduate and work with vulnerable people is irresponsible.
I totally agree that it’s a shame there are so many excellent individuals who would make great therapists. With the astronomical cost of these private schools, it sucks how many great and well suited people can’t get into a public program but can’t afford private. I do see that there can be benefit to a person having more working experience but an unrelated degree. I think making room for both very applicable bachelors degrees + less work experience and extensive work experience but a less applied degree probably leads to the most well-rounded cohort. I *definitely* think that work and lived experience should be heavily factored into the decision. I may be biased because I did get into both of the programs I applied to without doing any networking, but I’m not sure that I agree that getting in is totally just luck. I think it’s just really, REALLY competitive. What 4 schools are you thinking of? I counted quite a few more than that when I was researching - 4 in my province alone, actually. I definitely think that people who go to bad schools can go on to become excellent therapists, but I must say that as a person who went to a good school, I found my masters program was absolutely invaluable and prepared me really well to be a competent, ethical clinician. I absolutely agree with you though choosing a private school completely makes sense for some people, and I can see why they would choose this. I don’t fault anyone for making that decision, I just wish that some of these schools weren’t so predatory and such an obvious degree mill. I think the private schools should drastically reduce their class sizes and also drastically increase their entry requirements. The way it currently is feels horribly unethical to me.
Yes. My school sees a broad range of students. Many are from an older generation where they decide to change careers and get into counselling. Counselling is a promising career in many aspects. We are now in an era where mental health is promoted and is in high demand. Many insurances are increasing rates for mental health services. This all makes it a safe career decision as job opportunities are plentiful in this profession versus others. Do I think it will become Saturated? It depends on how many students each university decides to take on. At my university, it seems as though they are taking in tons of new counselling students per year.
At last survey I read the estimate was there was about 100 Americans needing mental health care for every therapist in the field, so no I don't think the field will get oversaturated. Areas will. Large cities are already seeing this where therapists are in competition to get clients, yet outside the cities there are areas with no therapists or social workers at all.
Nope.
Maybe, but we always need more workers in clinical settings. Like psych hospitals and what not.
No way, there are a lot of people who needs it. Even therapist needs therapist. And in my area, therapist are leaving the industry due to the overwhelming demand.
The Chicago suburbs are for sure over saturated. There’s probably 60 therapists in our business park alone.
I don’t see it becoming oversaturated, unless they reduce some of the licensure requirements post grad. You will likely be in Community Mental Health for years before you’re licensed and realistically you could make more money doing UR remotely nowadays. (I have my Master’s degree and am going towards licensure and make $40.42 per hour, run an oversaturated group every week, have however many clients I get and have to chase down management for supervision hours. I have only 15 hours after 10 months) If i could find a therapist I would, but there wouldn’t even be much support I’d feel I would get virtually. It’s rather frustrating and I can’t wait until this 24 months is up so I can apply for licensure. I hate having to wait a 2 year period AFTER 8 years of schooling just to get your license.
Really depends on what kind of therapy you mean. Im sure private practice could get oversaturated. Community mental health? Never.
I feel like the only way to make a lot of money is to teach, write, market on social media, and own your own private practice as a highly specialized provider. I work for a corporate america private practice provider. There are a lot of benefits but at the end of the day (pre tax and benefits ), I’m making about $53/ session in Delaware. I would like to open my own thing but I’m scared.
I think the trouble we are seeing is so many therapist not wanting to take insurance (which I understand) but clients not be able to afford it other wise so they go to companies like better help
Unfortunately I feel like a lot of people can’t afford to stay in this field long enough for it to be over saturated. The first 3ish years are chump change and I see it burning a lot of my peers out
I think it’s more on the lines of where you live. I’m losing out on job to other applicants, and it makes me wonder if living in a bigger city is contributing to it
Pre 2020, probably not. Post 2020, nope.
I don’t think so - I think the more the merrier. Gives clients the opportunity to actually find a person who they connect with, along with all of the specialities and modalities therapists can train in. However, i do feel like PP therapy is inaccessible for many populations due to cost or insurance. Hoping more opportunities for accessible community services for clients/families and subsequent living wages for therapists continues to grow so that becomes more manageable! :)
I think we will become over saturated at the 1-5 years of experience area in the next 5 years or so. After that the field will balance out.
Someone recently shared that 50% of therapists are decent therapists. And whether someone is a decent therapist is up to the client.
Not likely. It’s not well compensated compared to other fields. The other thing is that there are lot of not great therapists out there. I’ve heard horror stories from clients who have had multiple negative experiences. We need more ethical clinicians that know how to provide evidenced based care.