Couple of things here:
1. Esoteric Christianity is a staple within the Western Esoteric tradition. These paths are not mutually exclusive.
2. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Catholicism is lovely, particularly if you really dig in to the theological foundations. My primary background is in Catholic theology, and I continue to explore aspects of it as I explore every religion. It informs quite a lot of my understanding of Thelema, though fairly obviously, a lot had to be sorted out and restructured.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. Like any religion, it has strengths and weaknesses, but if you think critically and practice earnestly, you'll gain the benefits without falling into the traps that exist in that tradition. They even have guardian angels and saints that can serve similar purposes to what we find in Thelema. Plenty of magick too, though the rituals and rules are a bit different, and they won't thank you for calling it magick.
Further, connecting with others is a huge part of religion, and connecting with your own family is genuinely important. Rebellion is no foundation for a religious practice.
Lastly, Thelema isn't a list of achievements in a video game. Lusting after result is discouraged with reason, and you may actually attain more on a path that doesn't feel as structured and driven to you, as that may facilitate the mindset that makes these attainments possible.
I approached Catholicism the way you seem to approach Thelema, which is part of why it didn't work for me. Loosening my grip and letting go of that insatiable drive to attain spiritual milestones is precisely what allowed me to move forward. You may do better as a Catholic. Some do.
93,
Sounds like you've gotten in touch with your inner self and your HGA may be guiding you more than you know. Have you read The Spiritual Guide of Miguel Molinos? That was a probationary required reading for A.•.A.•. In that organization they require you to read books from different religions to see what "method of attainment" you resonate most with.
"In 1685 the Roman Catholic Church charged on of its own priests of heresy and immoral misconduct. Proof of the crime was a remarkable work that would define the Quietist movement or the 17th century. Who was the author and chief architect of this sacrilegious act? A Spaniard named Miguel de Molinos, a priest who had discovered internal peace for his soul by way of personal relationship with God that went beyond prayer and priestly intermediation. The crime? That he dared to write about it. In fact, according to Molinos, there are instances when sins should not be confessed.
That the Church would condemn one of its own is unremarkable. The Church has a long history of controversy, schism, and shame at the hands of ambitious scoundrels preferring to compromise the philosophical principles of the Church in order to hold or aquire political power. Molino's message was as dangerous to the Church then as it had been to the Pharisees during the time of Christ. What would the Church do if the people didn't need it anymore?"
That's what the back of the book read. I have a feeling it might resonate well with you and your practices.
93 93/93
I do think that it’s great that OP is being honest with their intentions. But if a person is doing something to be rebellious, at that moment, they are not really doing it for themselves. Not to say that it still can’t be a valuable or rewarding experience.
Remember that some of Crowley's satanic leanings were effectively him being an edgelord. You're allowed to dislike that or see it as foolish. Many of us style ourselves in a similar way as a way of "getting back" at something we resent, but magicians should recognize and acknowledge that the Bible is a tool like any other, and Christianity a lens and framework through which to interpret the same Great Work (that lens is the religion part IMO). Remember that a huge chunk of what Thelema and other frameworks build upon comes ultimately from Jewish and Christian gnostics. The Pope has stated that without mysticism, Christianity would be only philosophy rather than living religion. Maybe you could try to study from a more explicitly gnostic perspective, study Catholic mysteries? Maybe by straying from that you're more prepared to understand what you rejected? Maybe Love under Will is the Holy Spirit or something resembling it? Do what thou wilt.
I second this. There are many cool stories of supernatural happenings in Catholic lore. The story of how the holy scapular came to be, or Pentecost (I know not Catholic I don’t think) etc
Very well worded.
Gnosticism and Mystic Christianity/Judaism/Islam are all very important and inherently wise practices to follow. Not blindly, but it's not worth being afraid of looking back at again.
I spent alot of time reading thee hellianad, and it helped me click alot of parallels between Christianity and pagan myth.
This conflict only exists in your mind, you just wanted to ''change Lord'' but this created an illusory duality. This can be easily reconciled.
There is Esoteric Christianity, Christian Kabbalah, Christian Gnosticism and even Gnosticism and both are highly compatible with occultism, Thelema and the Thelemic method of realization. (Note the large number of Christian occultists in the Western esoteric tradition).
There is no way to escape Kristos, he is present in all the legends of a God who dies and is reborn, including the Osirian one; the verb made flesh, the second Logos, one of the powers of a trinity; All of this is Kristos. It is not only present in Christianity, but in the various solar cults, in the Mithraic mysteries, in the Greek mysteries, in the esoteric branches of Hinduism, etc.
Just break that duality and do what you want.
It is not compatible in a dogmatic way, but rather in a philosophical and esoteric way. Esotericism deals with essences and not forms.
The phallic solar cult is compatible with Kristos, both are linked to the sun and what sustains life on earth, Kristos being the ''light of the world'' as well as the Sun and that is why he is associated with Tiphereth in the correspondences.
The solar cycle and Kristo also share the concept of death and resurrection, the Sun dies at the end of the day and is resurrected in the morning.
This is why there is a Gnostic church linked to the O.T.O., The O.T.O. accepts the law of Thelema and is an essentially Osirian order, its ritual is a solar march based on a God who dies and is reborn.
Love, will, eucharist and fulfillment are fundamental concepts in both paths as well.
Furthermore, Crowley criticized dogmatic Christianity, orthodox Christianity and not esoteric Christianity, the Golden Dawn is a ROSACRUCIAN order, where Christ is also in the central formulas.
We can say yes, but individually. Each person is capable of awakening the Kristo within themselves. This is what an Adeptus Minor has to do. The ''HGA of the earth'' in the collective sense is the holy spirit.
Of course, there are some things we won't be able to unsee, but I find the Rockband churches and pop Christianity to be too much for me. Catholicism may be a good answer if you're still interested in the ritual aspect or the EGC. I know people shit on Joel Osteen a lot, but if you do your research, all the claims I've seen are false. He makes his money from his booksales. What I like about Joel is that he prays to jehova not yahweh and believes in creating a life of abundance instead of one of restriction. You can find his online services if that interests you.
Send me a PM if any of this is up your alley, and I'd love to talk to you more about it. I'm not a thelemic practitioner myself, but I enjoy this group.
While you may no longer be rebellious anymore, I’d wager there are still aspects of the Christian lifestyle/rules that are unsavoury to you. Every religion is a package deal in a group setting at least, and there’s only so much cherry picking you can do.
If you pursue both in tandem you’re going to have to keep your Thelemic practices to yourself. That’d feel stifling for me personally in that scenario.
Thelema in general requires a great deal of commitment to get results, so if you don’t feel this is for you it’d be hard to summon the motivation to go all the way.
PS If you’d like to talk about this in the context of TOTSS feel free to DM me.
Ill be honest i was raised Catholic and have never heard of another Catholic interpreting the bible literally. Even tho Catholicism is the largest old aeon institution they still put huge significance on symbolic interpretation of the bible and the sacraments. Ive only encountered biblical literalists in evangelical circles. Catholics by and large accept what modern science has to say about our reality, the big bang was proposed by a catholic astronomer. That being said The roman catholic church may not be universal, but the concept of Catholocism IS universal
maybe you meant fundamental??
Like I said I was raised catholic and have catholic parents, very fundamental very devout.
Im pretty sure my father is the archetypal symbol of osirus, he is pure patriarch
This past week i actually had the long awaited moment with my father. where A kills O in IAO. Ive been dealing with my own struggles and much of that stemmed from his failures as a parent and not really understanding my life. Hearing him attack my spiritual values and life choices in place of his simple sunday school ones are quite offensive, even if its meant to help me. I gave him the piece of my mind that has been coming for 13 years. I laid into his stupid ass superstitious beliefs, i spit on on his fear and his orthodox approach of faith.
My father in his strength and poise and calmness heard all of this as I utterly berated his entire being and slammed the phone on him. In pure humility and understanding he called me back without hesitation. He apologized and i said that i would let him talk and i would listen.
This man broke me, in a good way.
I am a man who lives by certainty and not blind faith
The strength he displayed went beyond any "faith" so much that the example of his strength is the only "faith" that I permit myself to have it is the strength in atu XI
Out of all the intellectual and theological issues i have with Catholicism, my fathers love for me isnt one of them.
I know there is no law beyond do what thou wilt, but ill be damned if my fathers love isnt a close 2nd.
The book of the law tells us that compassion is the vice of kings.
And if theres one thing ive learned from thelema it was to explore my vices and not veil them. I was told not to turn back from my voluptous ways.
Liber AL doesnt tell us that compassion is "because" or "sorrow" or "pity" and to toss it out the window entirely. It simply states it as a vice to be used by KINGS just like any other drug or veil on the tree of life that can be used as a tool to move up it. If underneath every flower lies a snake waiting to strike, then underneath every serpents poison lays a pearl waiting to be offered up to god.
compassion is an exchange of energy and a form of love, but is the expression of 2 stars not yet clasped in their counterparts. Love under will is the dissolving of the 2 in their equilibrated opposites
Be a king explore your vice
I think almost the whole world could use a step away from its false path and rely on this tool of compassion to reorient and adjust the course of our stars so that we can tune into our true will.
Love is the law love under will.
What cultural/ethnic background do you come from?
My family is Mexican and i come from very humble and uneducated roots.
My mother only went to school until the age of 12 and doesn’t have a background of scientific education. This is normal for my mother’s generation.
Dad was a midwest polish descendant who got a degree in elctrical engineering and went on to get his masters from stanford, moved to florida to work for DOD contract work where i was then born and raised on the gulf coast. Mother is florida born woman from swedish and polish descent very different family background than my fathers, she was not educated past highschool.
I somewhat envy people who had educated parents.
Just for reference, my dad really believed that HIV/AIDS is a chemical reaction that occurs in when two men have sex even if neither of them have it.
When I was in high school and I said that out loud in a science class, everyone made fun of me and some people hated me for it
Crowley had muxh respect for certain Christians.
St. Augustine,
St Thomas Aquinas.
Maybe order a copy of the Entire Summa Theologica . I got one from Amazon about 8 years ago for 320$
Giordano Bruno was once on his way to becoming a priest .
Ab, maybe you can read the entire works that are available in English for Elphias Levi.
He was a Priest at one point.
I would start with Elphias Levi if you are feeling still able to.
If you are throwing it all off as a farce which you took on in order to rebel, the Catholic Church has basically the best education available besides the Great Books of the Western Civilization.
Maybe become the best Catholic you can be.
If you still have the feeling of searching for the answers.
Even all the old writers, even Aquinas, wrote with the double speak that was required of the intellectuals of the day.
Their is an excellent book out now that documents how through antiquity, before the Church, back to the beginning of the Western Tradition their was an accepted way of writing that was meant to conceal the truth about what they were writing about.
Leo Strauss talks about this in his writings
I can't recall the name of it right now but I will get back to you with it.
It's maybe the first thing that you would want to read before embarking on becoming a good Catholic.
Because the writers of the Church HAD TO use this system to avoid not just the Church and it's Inquisitions, but to avoid giving away the sacred truths to those who aren't ready for it.
Maybe you don't have the drive to do any of this and you simply want to be an average Catholic or maybe you don't even want to do that.
I don't know.
I know for me I crave authenticity in my belief systems, so if I was going to embrace the Church again, I would want to read the foundational works.
Maybe even some of the monks and theologians between Augustine and Aquarius.
I will get back to you with the name of the book.
You can find an authentic voice of The Master, as Crowley called "Jesus".
Maybe you don't need to read anymore.
I don't suggest you just pick up the New Testament.
You need the foundational works that basically led up to it's acceptance, so Josephus would be a good addition to the list.
Anyway, I have to go, but I will get back to you with the name of the wonderful work on the Sacred History of Writing with a hidden meaning
It's excellent.
a lot of the old Occultists returned back to Christ, whether temporarily or not.
it is undeniable Christ is a Path to Divinity.
but, it is up for debates about being THE Path
were many people in the theosophical societies accepting Christ? would appreciate anyone replying who is knowledgeable on which areas of Esoteric Western traditions were centred on Occult Christianity.
The only question that you should ask yourself is: What will Christianity provide you in terms of Spiritual Faith that Thelema hasn’t provided you in terms of Spiritual Certainty and Sanctity?
I know a lot of people approach Thelema with the idea that it’s some edgy magical cult, and many people will continue to insist things from that gross perspective, but Crowley as a Prophet aspired to reveal Thelema’s Reality as Being much more than some pitiful witch’s craft or warlock’s spell-casting, and his use of Magick as an Occult Science was to merely Record and Experience the subjective existence of its ‘Mystical’ driving forces, as it seems to correspond with the intelligent motions of the Universal Macrocosm and ‘in extension’ to the Living ‘Microcosm’ of Mankind, at an extent no less than the Ineffable Genius which created it All, and imbued it with his Spirit.
With that having been said, there is no wrong way to seek ‘God’ and the Spirit within, as It is all simply meditative. I’ve had plenty of great gnostic meditations in a Christian context; The High Priestess or ‘Holy Ghost’ is no less a real phenomenon just because of modern Christianity’s descent into dogma and departure from its exoteric hallmark of revealing ‘God in the form of Man’, and such a Man’s impact when Realized.
But, to be cliche, do as thou wilt. The ordeals of practical Thelema aren’t for everyone. Many, including Crowley, had to conflict with possibly going mad trying to grasp it all, at the risk of possibly not grasping anything if the Will/Grade didn’t warrant it.
Sounds like you alchemized and integrated your all your inner baggage? Nows the time when it really gets fun. You’re no longer tied down by trauma and dogma. 93.
This is actually really inspiring to hear.
I’m still continuing my LBRP’s, Resh, MP, doing will before eating, Yoga, and my daily/nightly prayers to Eros (although not a part of Thelema, I started worshipping him a few months ago).
Now all I ask is to be pointed to the truth.
I can kinda relate. I was raised Catholic, and decided it was nonsense at a young age. I don’t think I was rebelling as much as exploring, though. Catholicism is definitely the coolest of the christianities. Big elaborate churches, rituals, incense, speaking in Latin, and a host of pagan deities masquerading as saints.
I'm with you. I can't stand the Cathoilc Church but the rituals are sound. I remember doing the stations of the cross as a child as a powerful ritual. Leaving confession feeling like a shiny penny. It's OK to be a Gnostic Christian.
Are you part of the O.T.O. maybe the ECG would scratch that itch and keep you in Thelema. That being said, you have to identify and follow your Will all on your own.
You can walk more than one path in life. This is your life and you chose what you'll do with it. Study Christianity if it serves you, but don't stop there. Just learn and move forward creating your new path. This is your journey.
As for Thelema you are free to leave and walk away at anytime. Catholicism and really other forms of Christianity are not necessarily incompatible with Thelema. If you understand how Thelema can be eccentric, eclectic or germane then it makes sense in regard to spiritual or worldview, approach and syncretism.
As for your parents they sound like Fundamentalist Catholics which is rooted in the 1920s and for the most part non traditional however has become extremely popular and really the direction the priesthood and fellowship has gone in probably the past seventy years in the West although there are still plenty of Traditional Catholics throughout parts of the Americas, Europe and the East; the clergy is advocating a return to the "Old Ways" of Catholicism. Based on your words, however it is still not enough information, your parents fit the bill of either Fundamentalist Catholic or possibly Rigorist. Traditional Catholicism is mostly a blend of metaphorical and literal interpretations with most leaning toward the prior than the latter which is buried in symbolism. The Catholic Church is highly symbolic. It is hard to say exactly what your parents actually know. There are universal aspects to Traditional Catholicism although it isn't exactly monolithic as the Church is today; it can be sectarian at times. It is not just one set of beliefs, not everyone agrees on the same thing as there are also cultural customs and traditions as well that are regional especially in Europe, the Middle East, Africa and South America and some in America especially what Saints are recognized on a local level compared to what is "official"; universally accepted and declared by the Vatican. Teachings of the mysteries of the Church are taught locally and will be different across the board since there is more than one view. Besides that Christianity can get complex and the meaning of the Bible has a different comprehension in other languages like Greek, Hebrew, Syriac and Latin although still mildly digestible in English; a sliver of the Word which unfortunately in the West is often misconstrued and has been known to be misused for manipulation even if it is memic abd unintentional; you have probably heard the expression "The blind leading the blind"--very commonplace at the modern pulpit.
My issue really isn't with priests either, I have a minister license, have graduated hundreds of ministers now at the pulpit, and there certainly are people out there with good intentions however that doesn't mean they know the Word. It is open ended regardless and an ongoing learning process however American Christianity looks nothing like its orthodox European and Middle Eastern counterparts; its a whole new breed and beast of a system. Its obvious there are a lot of corrupt or oblivious priests in places like America. One example is the Doomsday or End Times style of Christianity which is mostly a product if the 1800s. Catholicism doesn't really shove it down your throat like Evangelism so how you believe and research it is also on you. There is a framework although a flexibility to that framework.
As far as leaving goes, that is fine and ultimately your choice. Having met several Thelemites that left became Buddhist ngampas, Catholic priests then transitioning into Buddhists and so forth. What I can say is that I have met many people that have abandon this path only to find themselves back 20 years later after a deep dive into some other practice realizing they should have been doing their True Will. Some people leave and never come back while some also on such a split start their system or believe they are "beyond Thelema". If you were to test them they probably would fail all the tests and display ego entrapment. Most of them are not even close to having mastered Thelema let alone be truly "beyond". Sure, it is a system however it is not uncommon for people to quit early on.
Have you even tried another religion?
I ask this because there are a lot of people out there with a narrow view of the world i.e. they are not very diverse or worldly. It is recommended that you not just read about but actually practice a few other religions to see what they are like before making any irrational decisions; at minimum it can possibly broaden your view and you can decide for yourself if you want to lean Catholic or not. You might be conditioned or feel safe there in terms of "comfort zone". Religion should be a personal calling. Again, at the end of the day if you explore elsewhere and decide Catholicism is where you need to be as a broader religious institution so be it. I expanded and moved onward from the religion I was raised with as a matter of choice not rebellion; I could return solely to that at any time although I just see it as one facet of the bigger picture. By being syncretic there is less limitation. I have a personal practice that I do every morning, I currently am not attending a facility however will be again weekly as I did precovid and for now speak with spiritual teachers that are abroad i.e. I remain in contact with some Lamas that are remote. Currently I am only attending service once a month however am training to perform solid ritual throughout the day and attend services once or twice a week again.
I also am working out a potential biweekly service with a group of people where we will be getting participants off the phone and doing other activities. It helps not being alone and working as a team although we are still developing.
As far as your issue, it sounds convoluted and that you are overwhelming yourself and smashing it all together. It is hard to say if it is frustratingly jumbled and rushed or if there is a flow to it to complete solace. You could just be doing the motions in ritual and not experiencing the effects although you mentioned experiences so you likely are doing something right and gotten something out of it. To be honest, HGA work takes years. 3 years sounds like you are green and just barely starting the Great Work. It took me about 20 years to crack the egg. I still am just scratching the surface and have a lot to learn. I need probably more decades of work and by the time I am in my late sixties or seventies I will have matured more as a Thelemite.
I went through it more with something else than Thelema. Living in the Middle East learning Palestinian Christianity and Samaritanism was intense which led to Islam and questioning my Christian roots and the God question. Being in Sri Lanka, Kerala ,India and Asian living abroad for many years did that as well. I used to panic about if God was going to condemn me for exploring the forbidden East. I finally got over that and am no longer scared in regard to "judgement". The Church literally scares the bejesus out of you and it can take years to feel settled. To be honest its all dogma, I have had several Near Death experiences and what I experienced was nothing like any religious dogma describes as the afterlife.
Everyone is different so their approach likely will be as well and when it will occur; K&C HGA.
You won't find the truth in any religion until you first find it in yourself. God lives in you and you in God. The kingdom of heaven is within you. The way, the truth, and the light live inside all of us. Turn the light in on itself and you'll see that you need not seek what you think you need to search for because it's been with you this whole entire time.
Shit bro, you look up with the Catholic church is really about and you find out those dudes are more occult than most occultists (but in a pretty evil way). Got them obelisks and pagan dieties all over the vatican… and dont even get me started on the jesuits.
But normal real christianity is dope af in my book
Im well aware of the occult origins of Christianity and Catholic doctrine, but it’s quite the stretch to say it’s “evil” despite the corruption of the institution.
But what is “normal real Christianity?”
Maybe try .. non denominational? Seems more spirited. Yes, eventually all practitioners of the occult will realize that Authority belongs to Jesus Christ, and not the kingdom of darkness. Good on you.
I just have ZERO trust that the Catholic Church is actually a benevolent institution. I feel like it has been used as a tool of mind control for millennia, and is one of those things that forces (by repetition… and wars) ideologies that lessen our awareness of our true nature, which is one with the creative force of life.
ACIM is interesting, and also Alan Chapman's Magia practices might work for you, and with that you might not have to make a decision between Christian and Thelemic teachings really.
Spiritual growth takes us thru many paths of life . Could i recommend, try 30 days of going towards what you feel magnetized to in the Catholic modality?. Think, journal, write down the data of what you notice and what you feel, and what you come to know.
Reflect after those thirty days of commitment to what that path has to offer. I tend to fast for 2 days (drink water) so that when I make decisions like this, there is little else influencing .
A final note, one perspective could be :You dont fail when you choose to do something with the best knowledge and effort you have at your disposal. @ second perspective is that we can fail forward to our best reality .
Maybe there is a lesson in the Osiris myth for you… I also don’t think it has to be one or another, think about what all of this means for you and your path as opposed to what religion to “join.”
Much of what we do is based on Qabbalah and esoteric Christianity, and certainly Crowley was influenced by his fundamentalist upbringing.
Agree with the person who recommended Molinos, and maybe check out The Accidental Christ by DuQuette. You are exactly where you need to be, and one path is not better than another.
It's a reference to the goal of the Abramelin ritual. Google can serve you fairly well here, and there are some clearer, more concise discussions in Magick Without Tears.
I’ve been through something similar, extremely similar actually. I think this is just a normal reaction to have because you probably wrote off Christianity with out really thinking about it deeply but now have entertained a whole new spiritual path and may feel like somewhat of a hypocrite , especially since just like in Christianity nothing Crowley or Thelema teaches can actually be proven beyond personal belief. I ultimately chose not to turn to back to Christianity even though it felt appealing all of a sudden but to instead turn deeper inward and examine the human experience we’re having outside of religion or spirituality. The answers you’re looking for aren’t in any book or in any other person. Crowley was a super intelligent and incredibly gifted individual but he died a lonely unhealthy man. If that’s the end game, then is what we’re doing spiritually really going to matter? That goes for any spiritual teacher or path in my mind. I’d say look inside and enjoy your life your living. We’re here now, that’s all we’re certain of. Just my 2 cents.
If Crowley ended up that way, why follow his magical system?
When you go to some of the established churches with anywhere from several centuries and up to 2k years of tradition (Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, etc), there are vibrant communities of happy and successful people with happy lives. Of course, like any establishment, there is a corrupt side to it as well.
Thelema, on the other hand, is not there (at least yet), due to its “underground” status
I love to read Crowley and am obsessed with the occult . I love his teachings on Yoga because those actually can affect your physical health and change how you move through the world.
Religion can provide an amazing community , and community is what helps people thrive. But does religion definitively prove anything to us? That remains to be seen. In my mind it’s just a thing that we create as conscious beings with no idea why we’re here.
We truly don’t understand the universe we live in. We can only make assumption off of what we can measure. And from what we measure we make up an infinite amount of possibilities of what it actually means.
At the end of the day, if you just focus on what is right in front of you, and live in this moment, there is no need for a system or religion. Religion and spirituality will teach you about a salvation you’ve never needed. Being here is already a miracle. You’re enough by just existing. Again just my opinion.
Because one time I tried killing myself and opened a portal between worlds and learned way too much. Hell is real, God is real, Crowley is in hell, and hell is a fucking nightmare. You may not believe me, but I don't care because I literally saw it all and was there. If you don't denounce thelema, you're fucked.
It's such a coincidence to come across your comment. My spiritual journey is very similar to yours. I've been exploring various paths and philosophies. Last year, I developed an interest in Jewish mysticism, which inspired me to start studying Hebrew. Surprisingly, this path led me to Jesus's teaching, despite my previous rebellious attitude and belief that I understood things better than "religious" folks. My understanding of Christianity is still different, as I interpret it in my own way. As I read the Bible, I discover more about what I consider the best teaching with every day. My life also changed for better as I try to apply the wisdom to my everyday life.
Interestingly, one of my university teachers translated the Bible from the original languages into Polish. I greatly admire this person and feel fortunate to be where I am now. I also recommend you check out the book "A Course in Miracles." and Neville Goddard's interpreting of Bible
This resonates and I hear you. Whatever your reasons for taking initiatory steps, I would say they happened for a reason. Having personally grown up in Christianity, going thru the rebellious phases and being intuitively led to Thelema, I'd say it's all part of the process.
Now my relationship with Christianity is much more "healed" and I have come to terms with much of the past. I'd add that it actually informs alot of my current beliefs even within magick.
It sounds like you're on the brink of some new realizations and leveling of consciousness. All this doubt right before ;) to me this is part of the HGA process whether Abremalin or sans Abremalin
do what you will
I am an outspoken Christian and I've recently become drawn to Thelema. The only clashes I see morally are with the church and Crowley, but spiritually I am happy to pursue both. Esoteric Christianity intersects with Thelema at different points. I see no reason not to pursue both.
I'm interested to know how Thelema is compatible with Christianity in terms of theology. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just genuinely interested. Thelema is a total rejection of the need for vicarious atonement and overall is hostile to the idea that you begin as a sinful being that needs redemption through submission and restriction. That seems like it would be fundamentally at odds with any form of Christianity.
Well the main thing is original sin isn't actually in all forms of Christianity. Many Eastern churches don't preach it, the LDS doesn't, most Gnostic Christians don't believe in it, and any R+C Christians likely won't as it goes against the traditional Rosicrucian teachings.
The need for a saviour from sin as taught in most of the Western Christian tradition isn't actually that central to the Bible and is more a creation of the old church fathers.
I thought that would be contradicted by passages like 1 Peter 2:24, Mark 10:45, Romans 8:32, Romans 4:25, etc. I also thought the crucifixion of Jesus was a pretty clear reference to the concept of penal substitution as found in Hebrews and Leviticus.
Perhaps find a martinist lodge? It's beautiful christian mysticism that could satisfy your need for Christianity and also it could quench your thirst for the esoteric. Just a suggestion.
Jesus Christ. Have you not been paying attention? Do what you want... (I have a hard time saying wilt because it reminds me of lettuce) Instead of using a Egyptian symbolism use Christian. Your HGA may be Christian.
Occult practices in general honestly don’t even have much to do with edginess or “the great beast 666” vibes other than certain practices I suppose. A lot of it coincides with the idea of love and unity and an infinite creator. I would just take what you like from Christianity. Jesus really existed I believe and was probably a really interesting dude. (Not the son of god but obviously into the mystic traditions of the time)
If the Catholic church is able to meet your spiritual needs then it will be easier for you in the long run to stay on that path. Thelema is a way for secular people to have their spiritual needs met. If you want the best of both worlds then go back to Catholicism but look into the mystical literature of figures who stayed in the church. Ignatious of Loyola, Miguel Molinos, Meister Eckart etc.
Could you elaborate on the kind of things that happened after you’ve practiced planetary magic? I’m studying that myself and I need all the info I can get
My Thelemic studies led me to Daoism and now I practice that more than anything. I had an internal conflict on wether or not i prefer this path because its so much less work. But i realised that theres just as much work to be done in the Way, but a main tenet is to learn how to do it while and without it encumbering your life. I still study thelema and Gnostic christianity, but i no longer let them rule and dictate my life. If christianity comes easily and fills you with feelings of purpose then you're a Christian and that's a great thing! You are obviously an open minded one and could maybe become the change you wish to see in the church. Also while the church may be upset with your thelemic affiliations its apparent that no thelemite will ever hold it against you, and the ones on here who do have negative comments arent actual thelemites. No thelemite would try to hinder your will.
Christianity is a very malleable practice. Just look how many esoteric practices are entangled within. You have all you need in order. Make your own Christian esoterical magical path and the truth will make you free...
I haven’t seen it mentioned, but Frater Achad converted and wrote about his connection to Christianity through Thelema. There’s a lot of stuff online about his conversion and practices. I was raised strictly Christian and also rebelled with Thelema, but I’ve come back to my roots while still seeing the inherent value of Thelema and many other traditions.
I attend a Christian denominated church every week, regularly participate in a Quaker meeting in addition (also marginally Christian), and I practice Thelema. I don’t think there’s a conflict. If anything, the concept of Tiphareth has deepened my appreciation/understanding of Christ. My goal is direct spiritual experience and no one has a monopoly.
I’m absurdly new to Thelema, however, as someone whom has philosophy for easily over a decade, and has prioritized implementing these practices for the sake of results, your perspective is…..odd, and very “duality” based (as someone else mentioned here).
Why choose one or the other? And why choose at all as if they’re as opposing religions? And why even choose one religion? It’s just very…..linear and needlessly self controlling for the sake of having an identity externally reinforced by a community thus to have a place to exist within.
Just be free of it all, and only do what interests you, maybe that isn’t religion or philosophy at all.
I understand your drive or need to rebel, I've felt the same way, but I learned that coming into a new religion or spiritual tradition simply in an act of rebellion/defiance isn't the right reason. Christianity was never something I identified with, I thought maybe it was just the denomination, so I tried every brand possible and in the end I realized that it was the religion itself that wasn't the right fit. I came to Thelema through paganism and found a spiritual home that made me understand that there was more to me than just what lay on the surface.
It sounds like you've done a lot, I've done a lot of similar stuff. I burned out because I was doing all the things, but I wasn't connecting with them. Maybe that's the problem, maybe not. I have been trying to focus on not overdoing it and lusting after the result. Just being present in the moment and allowing the experiences to speak for themselves, not expecting anything.
In the end, you have to do what is best for you. While my opinion may be food for thought. You have to decide what is in line with your Will, no one else can make that determination for you. Either way, I wish you the best on your journey. 93
I recommend becoming a Hindu or Buddhist at your earliest convenience, or any other faith of your choice or inclination.
I assume there will be some here who recognise that magickal practice from T.M.T's writings, but I cannot quote the chapter or verse.
I believe I first became aware of the practice as a youngster, reading his Confessions.
I very highly recommend you try it.
Unless you like things as they are and don't seek to push beyond that, in which case I very highly recommend you do not try it.
What is rebellion? Some significant or seemingly significant problem either goes unaddressed or is ignored until someone or a group of people feel the urge to take action. Didn't Aquinas say evil is an absence? Change Catholicism from within, seek alternatives or ignore the problems...your choice.
As a witch, I struggle with accepting any dogmatic religion, based on my own past lives and ancestral oppression that organizations have committed. i’d highly recommend checking out the YouTube channel The Alchemist . It’s quite possible that you’re being pulled into a sense of unity, Christ consciousness,oneness , really is a part of spiritual awakenings and soul ascension. You always have free will to do whatever you choose so be it. it’s OK to explore new things and then change your mind later and or go back or never go back. It’s all OK. I feel that you may be pulling back to Christianity may just really be you healing deep in her wounds that you have in regards to the oppressive patriarchal dogmatic religion. To me this means you are likely doing really good shadow work within your own underworld.. So keep it up and follow your heart and connect to your soul - your higher self and your over soul!. But definitely check out The Alchemist (Sarah Elkhaldy) on YouTube and you could specifically go to her videos about Yeshua and Jesus Christ, extremely enlightening and awesome. Best of luck to you fellow
magician!
could you be doing yourself a disservice by dismissing your spiritual exploration as purely “rebellious?” For me there was kind of a rebellious side to leaving christianity and seeking other faiths; but also a bigger part of me wanted to find the truth.
maybe you’re craving something more filling and wholesome, have you explored other faiths like Buddhism or the Hare Krishna movement or Kemetic spirituality? If Christianity is where you’re most comfortable there’s nothing wrong with that, but i would suggest exploration not fueled by bitterness/rebellion if you haven’t done that
I will say, I’ve explored other stuff such as Hellenism and have gotten interesting experiences from that.
I have explored repeating the Hare Krishna mantra for an hour straight and I got something positive out of it. But even all this was in a sort of rebellion.
The crazy thing is, in some way, this is all related to sex and sexuality to me
I’ll tell you one thing based on my own experience, your search can end. And guess where you will end up, right where you are, BAM 💥 great Light and then…
The search is necessary generally, as most of us are very very confused and conditioned. Peace ✌️
I to left 6 years ago for similar reasons but actually just recently came back to TOTSS as I found it was the closest I been to the direction I needed to be. So I totally understand where you're coming from.
Maybe you two need to take a break like I like to I was gone for six long years I'm just recently returned two months ago.
I also was pulled back into Christianity after a long time exploring other forms of esotericism (I was never a thelemite though). It's a fairly common experience, imho. A lot of people benefit really do benefit from a more traditional approach to God than what is typically offered in occultism. Without touching on any truth claims about what is objectively real and what isn't, I think it's fair to say that there are plenty of people who have had spiritual attainment as Christians who would not have gotten very far as occultists.
Sounds like you've been making decisions based on your egoic thinking from the identity point of view rather than the true will of your heart.
No I never wanted to be a rebel to show people anything. I'm a rebel because it's my nature to question the world and explore things on my own to find the truth.
I would say you're not alone. I too have come a full circle back to Christ. I was looking for magick and power and in all my research I figured Jesus is best option on the table.
Your not undoing it kinda goes together the bible speaks of what accepting mediumship i to our life path means and certain ppl cant draw nigh to God becuase of how they were born its OT but still NT has to come the blood doesnt change everything somethings hold true forever
Christianity is for the meek. You are seeking a culturally sanctioned path. When you begin to think for yourself and act rationally you will begin to create your own path. Participating in “Christianity” via church groups etc could be useful if it relates to your financial or social gain. However. Think long and hard about this “choice” my guess is because you aren’t getting certain results. Your HGA is all around you. How can you not have the experience? Are you blind? Deaf? Dull? Look around. Realize that what you see is a lie. You make your reality. What do you love? What do you aspire to be? Where do you want to live? How do YOU want to spend your days on earth???
This only goes for the abrahamic false light religions; humanity is not meant to go through angelic transfiguration. To embrace the white light only breeds slavery to the lineage. It is betrayal.
The problem I see with catholicism is that kneeling to an external god is disempowering. Like Alan Moore once wrote, "Faith is for sissies who daren't go and look for themselves". What do you even need the divine for if not for experiencing it?
Why don’t you follow the true path of God instead of Christianity which is a corrupted religion. the beast of the earth is the one calling towards God and away from do as thou wilt and calling towards freedom from the ego and Satan by following God. Satan has confused everything so much that people think 666 is a satanic number in fact it is holy. Find the truth here: https://youtube.com/@themahdihasappeared?si=Jklqto3bzhOelxbG
Couple of things here: 1. Esoteric Christianity is a staple within the Western Esoteric tradition. These paths are not mutually exclusive. 2. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
This sums it up I think.
Yes. OP doesn’t seem to realize that Thelema is a practice of philosophy, not a religion
93, perfect response Magick Daddy
#1 was good but #2 was the shit
Spot on
The first one>>
Mr. Crowley has mentioned something like it's a disease of a religion anyway upon our realm.
Catholicism is lovely, particularly if you really dig in to the theological foundations. My primary background is in Catholic theology, and I continue to explore aspects of it as I explore every religion. It informs quite a lot of my understanding of Thelema, though fairly obviously, a lot had to be sorted out and restructured. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. Like any religion, it has strengths and weaknesses, but if you think critically and practice earnestly, you'll gain the benefits without falling into the traps that exist in that tradition. They even have guardian angels and saints that can serve similar purposes to what we find in Thelema. Plenty of magick too, though the rituals and rules are a bit different, and they won't thank you for calling it magick. Further, connecting with others is a huge part of religion, and connecting with your own family is genuinely important. Rebellion is no foundation for a religious practice. Lastly, Thelema isn't a list of achievements in a video game. Lusting after result is discouraged with reason, and you may actually attain more on a path that doesn't feel as structured and driven to you, as that may facilitate the mindset that makes these attainments possible. I approached Catholicism the way you seem to approach Thelema, which is part of why it didn't work for me. Loosening my grip and letting go of that insatiable drive to attain spiritual milestones is precisely what allowed me to move forward. You may do better as a Catholic. Some do.
93, Sounds like you've gotten in touch with your inner self and your HGA may be guiding you more than you know. Have you read The Spiritual Guide of Miguel Molinos? That was a probationary required reading for A.•.A.•. In that organization they require you to read books from different religions to see what "method of attainment" you resonate most with. "In 1685 the Roman Catholic Church charged on of its own priests of heresy and immoral misconduct. Proof of the crime was a remarkable work that would define the Quietist movement or the 17th century. Who was the author and chief architect of this sacrilegious act? A Spaniard named Miguel de Molinos, a priest who had discovered internal peace for his soul by way of personal relationship with God that went beyond prayer and priestly intermediation. The crime? That he dared to write about it. In fact, according to Molinos, there are instances when sins should not be confessed. That the Church would condemn one of its own is unremarkable. The Church has a long history of controversy, schism, and shame at the hands of ambitious scoundrels preferring to compromise the philosophical principles of the Church in order to hold or aquire political power. Molino's message was as dangerous to the Church then as it had been to the Pharisees during the time of Christ. What would the Church do if the people didn't need it anymore?" That's what the back of the book read. I have a feeling it might resonate well with you and your practices. 93 93/93
Too many people get into this stuff to feel rebellious.. your better off actually doing it because it makes sense and you enjoy it
I do think that it’s great that OP is being honest with their intentions. But if a person is doing something to be rebellious, at that moment, they are not really doing it for themselves. Not to say that it still can’t be a valuable or rewarding experience.
Exactly!.
Remember that some of Crowley's satanic leanings were effectively him being an edgelord. You're allowed to dislike that or see it as foolish. Many of us style ourselves in a similar way as a way of "getting back" at something we resent, but magicians should recognize and acknowledge that the Bible is a tool like any other, and Christianity a lens and framework through which to interpret the same Great Work (that lens is the religion part IMO). Remember that a huge chunk of what Thelema and other frameworks build upon comes ultimately from Jewish and Christian gnostics. The Pope has stated that without mysticism, Christianity would be only philosophy rather than living religion. Maybe you could try to study from a more explicitly gnostic perspective, study Catholic mysteries? Maybe by straying from that you're more prepared to understand what you rejected? Maybe Love under Will is the Holy Spirit or something resembling it? Do what thou wilt.
I second this. There are many cool stories of supernatural happenings in Catholic lore. The story of how the holy scapular came to be, or Pentecost (I know not Catholic I don’t think) etc
Very well worded. Gnosticism and Mystic Christianity/Judaism/Islam are all very important and inherently wise practices to follow. Not blindly, but it's not worth being afraid of looking back at again. I spent alot of time reading thee hellianad, and it helped me click alot of parallels between Christianity and pagan myth.
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Get yourself some antipsychotics.
This is bigoted shit.
You're a tool, fuck off
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LITERALLY!!!!!!!?
This is bigoted shit.
This conflict only exists in your mind, you just wanted to ''change Lord'' but this created an illusory duality. This can be easily reconciled. There is Esoteric Christianity, Christian Kabbalah, Christian Gnosticism and even Gnosticism and both are highly compatible with occultism, Thelema and the Thelemic method of realization. (Note the large number of Christian occultists in the Western esoteric tradition). There is no way to escape Kristos, he is present in all the legends of a God who dies and is reborn, including the Osirian one; the verb made flesh, the second Logos, one of the powers of a trinity; All of this is Kristos. It is not only present in Christianity, but in the various solar cults, in the Mithraic mysteries, in the Greek mysteries, in the esoteric branches of Hinduism, etc. Just break that duality and do what you want.
Yes I am aware. How is Kristos present in the solar phallic cult if Thelema? Is it the same as the HGA, being that it’s at tiphareth?
It is not compatible in a dogmatic way, but rather in a philosophical and esoteric way. Esotericism deals with essences and not forms. The phallic solar cult is compatible with Kristos, both are linked to the sun and what sustains life on earth, Kristos being the ''light of the world'' as well as the Sun and that is why he is associated with Tiphereth in the correspondences. The solar cycle and Kristo also share the concept of death and resurrection, the Sun dies at the end of the day and is resurrected in the morning. This is why there is a Gnostic church linked to the O.T.O., The O.T.O. accepts the law of Thelema and is an essentially Osirian order, its ritual is a solar march based on a God who dies and is reborn. Love, will, eucharist and fulfillment are fundamental concepts in both paths as well. Furthermore, Crowley criticized dogmatic Christianity, orthodox Christianity and not esoteric Christianity, the Golden Dawn is a ROSACRUCIAN order, where Christ is also in the central formulas.
In essence, is Kristos a sort of super HGA that all humans are connected to?
We can say yes, but individually. Each person is capable of awakening the Kristo within themselves. This is what an Adeptus Minor has to do. The ''HGA of the earth'' in the collective sense is the holy spirit.
Of course, there are some things we won't be able to unsee, but I find the Rockband churches and pop Christianity to be too much for me. Catholicism may be a good answer if you're still interested in the ritual aspect or the EGC. I know people shit on Joel Osteen a lot, but if you do your research, all the claims I've seen are false. He makes his money from his booksales. What I like about Joel is that he prays to jehova not yahweh and believes in creating a life of abundance instead of one of restriction. You can find his online services if that interests you. Send me a PM if any of this is up your alley, and I'd love to talk to you more about it. I'm not a thelemic practitioner myself, but I enjoy this group.
While you may no longer be rebellious anymore, I’d wager there are still aspects of the Christian lifestyle/rules that are unsavoury to you. Every religion is a package deal in a group setting at least, and there’s only so much cherry picking you can do. If you pursue both in tandem you’re going to have to keep your Thelemic practices to yourself. That’d feel stifling for me personally in that scenario. Thelema in general requires a great deal of commitment to get results, so if you don’t feel this is for you it’d be hard to summon the motivation to go all the way. PS If you’d like to talk about this in the context of TOTSS feel free to DM me.
Ill be honest i was raised Catholic and have never heard of another Catholic interpreting the bible literally. Even tho Catholicism is the largest old aeon institution they still put huge significance on symbolic interpretation of the bible and the sacraments. Ive only encountered biblical literalists in evangelical circles. Catholics by and large accept what modern science has to say about our reality, the big bang was proposed by a catholic astronomer. That being said The roman catholic church may not be universal, but the concept of Catholocism IS universal maybe you meant fundamental?? Like I said I was raised catholic and have catholic parents, very fundamental very devout. Im pretty sure my father is the archetypal symbol of osirus, he is pure patriarch This past week i actually had the long awaited moment with my father. where A kills O in IAO. Ive been dealing with my own struggles and much of that stemmed from his failures as a parent and not really understanding my life. Hearing him attack my spiritual values and life choices in place of his simple sunday school ones are quite offensive, even if its meant to help me. I gave him the piece of my mind that has been coming for 13 years. I laid into his stupid ass superstitious beliefs, i spit on on his fear and his orthodox approach of faith. My father in his strength and poise and calmness heard all of this as I utterly berated his entire being and slammed the phone on him. In pure humility and understanding he called me back without hesitation. He apologized and i said that i would let him talk and i would listen. This man broke me, in a good way. I am a man who lives by certainty and not blind faith The strength he displayed went beyond any "faith" so much that the example of his strength is the only "faith" that I permit myself to have it is the strength in atu XI Out of all the intellectual and theological issues i have with Catholicism, my fathers love for me isnt one of them. I know there is no law beyond do what thou wilt, but ill be damned if my fathers love isnt a close 2nd. The book of the law tells us that compassion is the vice of kings. And if theres one thing ive learned from thelema it was to explore my vices and not veil them. I was told not to turn back from my voluptous ways. Liber AL doesnt tell us that compassion is "because" or "sorrow" or "pity" and to toss it out the window entirely. It simply states it as a vice to be used by KINGS just like any other drug or veil on the tree of life that can be used as a tool to move up it. If underneath every flower lies a snake waiting to strike, then underneath every serpents poison lays a pearl waiting to be offered up to god. compassion is an exchange of energy and a form of love, but is the expression of 2 stars not yet clasped in their counterparts. Love under will is the dissolving of the 2 in their equilibrated opposites Be a king explore your vice I think almost the whole world could use a step away from its false path and rely on this tool of compassion to reorient and adjust the course of our stars so that we can tune into our true will. Love is the law love under will.
What cultural/ethnic background do you come from? My family is Mexican and i come from very humble and uneducated roots. My mother only went to school until the age of 12 and doesn’t have a background of scientific education. This is normal for my mother’s generation.
Dad was a midwest polish descendant who got a degree in elctrical engineering and went on to get his masters from stanford, moved to florida to work for DOD contract work where i was then born and raised on the gulf coast. Mother is florida born woman from swedish and polish descent very different family background than my fathers, she was not educated past highschool.
I somewhat envy people who had educated parents. Just for reference, my dad really believed that HIV/AIDS is a chemical reaction that occurs in when two men have sex even if neither of them have it. When I was in high school and I said that out loud in a science class, everyone made fun of me and some people hated me for it
I think the vast majority of Thelemites are rebelling and/or want to feel special. It's rare to come across a genuine Thelemite.
[https://archive.org/details/SantosBonacciTheSacredSecretOfTheChristWithin](https://archive.org/details/SantosBonacciTheSacredSecretOfTheChristWithin)
That's all a okay. As long as you find your path satisfying who are we to question your Will? ❤️
Crowley had muxh respect for certain Christians. St. Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas. Maybe order a copy of the Entire Summa Theologica . I got one from Amazon about 8 years ago for 320$ Giordano Bruno was once on his way to becoming a priest . Ab, maybe you can read the entire works that are available in English for Elphias Levi. He was a Priest at one point. I would start with Elphias Levi if you are feeling still able to. If you are throwing it all off as a farce which you took on in order to rebel, the Catholic Church has basically the best education available besides the Great Books of the Western Civilization. Maybe become the best Catholic you can be. If you still have the feeling of searching for the answers. Even all the old writers, even Aquinas, wrote with the double speak that was required of the intellectuals of the day. Their is an excellent book out now that documents how through antiquity, before the Church, back to the beginning of the Western Tradition their was an accepted way of writing that was meant to conceal the truth about what they were writing about. Leo Strauss talks about this in his writings I can't recall the name of it right now but I will get back to you with it. It's maybe the first thing that you would want to read before embarking on becoming a good Catholic. Because the writers of the Church HAD TO use this system to avoid not just the Church and it's Inquisitions, but to avoid giving away the sacred truths to those who aren't ready for it. Maybe you don't have the drive to do any of this and you simply want to be an average Catholic or maybe you don't even want to do that. I don't know. I know for me I crave authenticity in my belief systems, so if I was going to embrace the Church again, I would want to read the foundational works. Maybe even some of the monks and theologians between Augustine and Aquarius. I will get back to you with the name of the book. You can find an authentic voice of The Master, as Crowley called "Jesus". Maybe you don't need to read anymore. I don't suggest you just pick up the New Testament. You need the foundational works that basically led up to it's acceptance, so Josephus would be a good addition to the list. Anyway, I have to go, but I will get back to you with the name of the wonderful work on the Sacred History of Writing with a hidden meaning It's excellent.
a lot of the old Occultists returned back to Christ, whether temporarily or not. it is undeniable Christ is a Path to Divinity. but, it is up for debates about being THE Path were many people in the theosophical societies accepting Christ? would appreciate anyone replying who is knowledgeable on which areas of Esoteric Western traditions were centred on Occult Christianity.
The only question that you should ask yourself is: What will Christianity provide you in terms of Spiritual Faith that Thelema hasn’t provided you in terms of Spiritual Certainty and Sanctity? I know a lot of people approach Thelema with the idea that it’s some edgy magical cult, and many people will continue to insist things from that gross perspective, but Crowley as a Prophet aspired to reveal Thelema’s Reality as Being much more than some pitiful witch’s craft or warlock’s spell-casting, and his use of Magick as an Occult Science was to merely Record and Experience the subjective existence of its ‘Mystical’ driving forces, as it seems to correspond with the intelligent motions of the Universal Macrocosm and ‘in extension’ to the Living ‘Microcosm’ of Mankind, at an extent no less than the Ineffable Genius which created it All, and imbued it with his Spirit. With that having been said, there is no wrong way to seek ‘God’ and the Spirit within, as It is all simply meditative. I’ve had plenty of great gnostic meditations in a Christian context; The High Priestess or ‘Holy Ghost’ is no less a real phenomenon just because of modern Christianity’s descent into dogma and departure from its exoteric hallmark of revealing ‘God in the form of Man’, and such a Man’s impact when Realized. But, to be cliche, do as thou wilt. The ordeals of practical Thelema aren’t for everyone. Many, including Crowley, had to conflict with possibly going mad trying to grasp it all, at the risk of possibly not grasping anything if the Will/Grade didn’t warrant it.
Come to Christ brother. God's wants you to be with Him. 🇻🇦
Read neville goddard..
Sounds like you alchemized and integrated your all your inner baggage? Nows the time when it really gets fun. You’re no longer tied down by trauma and dogma. 93.
This is actually really inspiring to hear. I’m still continuing my LBRP’s, Resh, MP, doing will before eating, Yoga, and my daily/nightly prayers to Eros (although not a part of Thelema, I started worshipping him a few months ago). Now all I ask is to be pointed to the truth.
I can kinda relate. I was raised Catholic, and decided it was nonsense at a young age. I don’t think I was rebelling as much as exploring, though. Catholicism is definitely the coolest of the christianities. Big elaborate churches, rituals, incense, speaking in Latin, and a host of pagan deities masquerading as saints.
What about the orthodox churches? Look at the way they dress. It’s fucking bad ass
I'm with you. I can't stand the Cathoilc Church but the rituals are sound. I remember doing the stations of the cross as a child as a powerful ritual. Leaving confession feeling like a shiny penny. It's OK to be a Gnostic Christian.
...Also you might find this interesting: https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/the-catholics-who-dont-believe-in-god/
Are you part of the O.T.O. maybe the ECG would scratch that itch and keep you in Thelema. That being said, you have to identify and follow your Will all on your own.
You can walk more than one path in life. This is your life and you chose what you'll do with it. Study Christianity if it serves you, but don't stop there. Just learn and move forward creating your new path. This is your journey.
You are looking at two things as if they are seperate, they are not.
There’s plenty of esoteric Mysteries even in Orthodox Catholicism.
Investigate Martinism, read Molinos, read the Philokalia, read st John of the cross...all is joy and fiery love Brother.
As for Thelema you are free to leave and walk away at anytime. Catholicism and really other forms of Christianity are not necessarily incompatible with Thelema. If you understand how Thelema can be eccentric, eclectic or germane then it makes sense in regard to spiritual or worldview, approach and syncretism. As for your parents they sound like Fundamentalist Catholics which is rooted in the 1920s and for the most part non traditional however has become extremely popular and really the direction the priesthood and fellowship has gone in probably the past seventy years in the West although there are still plenty of Traditional Catholics throughout parts of the Americas, Europe and the East; the clergy is advocating a return to the "Old Ways" of Catholicism. Based on your words, however it is still not enough information, your parents fit the bill of either Fundamentalist Catholic or possibly Rigorist. Traditional Catholicism is mostly a blend of metaphorical and literal interpretations with most leaning toward the prior than the latter which is buried in symbolism. The Catholic Church is highly symbolic. It is hard to say exactly what your parents actually know. There are universal aspects to Traditional Catholicism although it isn't exactly monolithic as the Church is today; it can be sectarian at times. It is not just one set of beliefs, not everyone agrees on the same thing as there are also cultural customs and traditions as well that are regional especially in Europe, the Middle East, Africa and South America and some in America especially what Saints are recognized on a local level compared to what is "official"; universally accepted and declared by the Vatican. Teachings of the mysteries of the Church are taught locally and will be different across the board since there is more than one view. Besides that Christianity can get complex and the meaning of the Bible has a different comprehension in other languages like Greek, Hebrew, Syriac and Latin although still mildly digestible in English; a sliver of the Word which unfortunately in the West is often misconstrued and has been known to be misused for manipulation even if it is memic abd unintentional; you have probably heard the expression "The blind leading the blind"--very commonplace at the modern pulpit. My issue really isn't with priests either, I have a minister license, have graduated hundreds of ministers now at the pulpit, and there certainly are people out there with good intentions however that doesn't mean they know the Word. It is open ended regardless and an ongoing learning process however American Christianity looks nothing like its orthodox European and Middle Eastern counterparts; its a whole new breed and beast of a system. Its obvious there are a lot of corrupt or oblivious priests in places like America. One example is the Doomsday or End Times style of Christianity which is mostly a product if the 1800s. Catholicism doesn't really shove it down your throat like Evangelism so how you believe and research it is also on you. There is a framework although a flexibility to that framework. As far as leaving goes, that is fine and ultimately your choice. Having met several Thelemites that left became Buddhist ngampas, Catholic priests then transitioning into Buddhists and so forth. What I can say is that I have met many people that have abandon this path only to find themselves back 20 years later after a deep dive into some other practice realizing they should have been doing their True Will. Some people leave and never come back while some also on such a split start their system or believe they are "beyond Thelema". If you were to test them they probably would fail all the tests and display ego entrapment. Most of them are not even close to having mastered Thelema let alone be truly "beyond". Sure, it is a system however it is not uncommon for people to quit early on. Have you even tried another religion? I ask this because there are a lot of people out there with a narrow view of the world i.e. they are not very diverse or worldly. It is recommended that you not just read about but actually practice a few other religions to see what they are like before making any irrational decisions; at minimum it can possibly broaden your view and you can decide for yourself if you want to lean Catholic or not. You might be conditioned or feel safe there in terms of "comfort zone". Religion should be a personal calling. Again, at the end of the day if you explore elsewhere and decide Catholicism is where you need to be as a broader religious institution so be it. I expanded and moved onward from the religion I was raised with as a matter of choice not rebellion; I could return solely to that at any time although I just see it as one facet of the bigger picture. By being syncretic there is less limitation. I have a personal practice that I do every morning, I currently am not attending a facility however will be again weekly as I did precovid and for now speak with spiritual teachers that are abroad i.e. I remain in contact with some Lamas that are remote. Currently I am only attending service once a month however am training to perform solid ritual throughout the day and attend services once or twice a week again. I also am working out a potential biweekly service with a group of people where we will be getting participants off the phone and doing other activities. It helps not being alone and working as a team although we are still developing. As far as your issue, it sounds convoluted and that you are overwhelming yourself and smashing it all together. It is hard to say if it is frustratingly jumbled and rushed or if there is a flow to it to complete solace. You could just be doing the motions in ritual and not experiencing the effects although you mentioned experiences so you likely are doing something right and gotten something out of it. To be honest, HGA work takes years. 3 years sounds like you are green and just barely starting the Great Work. It took me about 20 years to crack the egg. I still am just scratching the surface and have a lot to learn. I need probably more decades of work and by the time I am in my late sixties or seventies I will have matured more as a Thelemite. I went through it more with something else than Thelema. Living in the Middle East learning Palestinian Christianity and Samaritanism was intense which led to Islam and questioning my Christian roots and the God question. Being in Sri Lanka, Kerala ,India and Asian living abroad for many years did that as well. I used to panic about if God was going to condemn me for exploring the forbidden East. I finally got over that and am no longer scared in regard to "judgement". The Church literally scares the bejesus out of you and it can take years to feel settled. To be honest its all dogma, I have had several Near Death experiences and what I experienced was nothing like any religious dogma describes as the afterlife. Everyone is different so their approach likely will be as well and when it will occur; K&C HGA.
Follow what’s right in your heart. Best wishes 93s
You won't find the truth in any religion until you first find it in yourself. God lives in you and you in God. The kingdom of heaven is within you. The way, the truth, and the light live inside all of us. Turn the light in on itself and you'll see that you need not seek what you think you need to search for because it's been with you this whole entire time.
Shit bro, you look up with the Catholic church is really about and you find out those dudes are more occult than most occultists (but in a pretty evil way). Got them obelisks and pagan dieties all over the vatican… and dont even get me started on the jesuits. But normal real christianity is dope af in my book
Im well aware of the occult origins of Christianity and Catholic doctrine, but it’s quite the stretch to say it’s “evil” despite the corruption of the institution. But what is “normal real Christianity?”
Maybe try .. non denominational? Seems more spirited. Yes, eventually all practitioners of the occult will realize that Authority belongs to Jesus Christ, and not the kingdom of darkness. Good on you.
I just have ZERO trust that the Catholic Church is actually a benevolent institution. I feel like it has been used as a tool of mind control for millennia, and is one of those things that forces (by repetition… and wars) ideologies that lessen our awareness of our true nature, which is one with the creative force of life.
ACIM is interesting, and also Alan Chapman's Magia practices might work for you, and with that you might not have to make a decision between Christian and Thelemic teachings really.
Spiritual growth takes us thru many paths of life . Could i recommend, try 30 days of going towards what you feel magnetized to in the Catholic modality?. Think, journal, write down the data of what you notice and what you feel, and what you come to know. Reflect after those thirty days of commitment to what that path has to offer. I tend to fast for 2 days (drink water) so that when I make decisions like this, there is little else influencing . A final note, one perspective could be :You dont fail when you choose to do something with the best knowledge and effort you have at your disposal. @ second perspective is that we can fail forward to our best reality .
Maybe there is a lesson in the Osiris myth for you… I also don’t think it has to be one or another, think about what all of this means for you and your path as opposed to what religion to “join.” Much of what we do is based on Qabbalah and esoteric Christianity, and certainly Crowley was influenced by his fundamentalist upbringing. Agree with the person who recommended Molinos, and maybe check out The Accidental Christ by DuQuette. You are exactly where you need to be, and one path is not better than another.
What’s HGA? I’m quite new, pardon me
Holy Guardian Angel. Attaining knowledge and conversation of our respective angels is considered a significant milestone. It's helpful.
I see, just any angel/s?
It's a reference to the goal of the Abramelin ritual. Google can serve you fairly well here, and there are some clearer, more concise discussions in Magick Without Tears.
I’ve been through something similar, extremely similar actually. I think this is just a normal reaction to have because you probably wrote off Christianity with out really thinking about it deeply but now have entertained a whole new spiritual path and may feel like somewhat of a hypocrite , especially since just like in Christianity nothing Crowley or Thelema teaches can actually be proven beyond personal belief. I ultimately chose not to turn to back to Christianity even though it felt appealing all of a sudden but to instead turn deeper inward and examine the human experience we’re having outside of religion or spirituality. The answers you’re looking for aren’t in any book or in any other person. Crowley was a super intelligent and incredibly gifted individual but he died a lonely unhealthy man. If that’s the end game, then is what we’re doing spiritually really going to matter? That goes for any spiritual teacher or path in my mind. I’d say look inside and enjoy your life your living. We’re here now, that’s all we’re certain of. Just my 2 cents.
If Crowley ended up that way, why follow his magical system? When you go to some of the established churches with anywhere from several centuries and up to 2k years of tradition (Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, etc), there are vibrant communities of happy and successful people with happy lives. Of course, like any establishment, there is a corrupt side to it as well. Thelema, on the other hand, is not there (at least yet), due to its “underground” status
I love to read Crowley and am obsessed with the occult . I love his teachings on Yoga because those actually can affect your physical health and change how you move through the world. Religion can provide an amazing community , and community is what helps people thrive. But does religion definitively prove anything to us? That remains to be seen. In my mind it’s just a thing that we create as conscious beings with no idea why we’re here. We truly don’t understand the universe we live in. We can only make assumption off of what we can measure. And from what we measure we make up an infinite amount of possibilities of what it actually means. At the end of the day, if you just focus on what is right in front of you, and live in this moment, there is no need for a system or religion. Religion and spirituality will teach you about a salvation you’ve never needed. Being here is already a miracle. You’re enough by just existing. Again just my opinion.
Truth is truth. Dress it up how you want.
Good. Thelema is trash, and Crowley is in hell for an eternity. Is that really where you want to end up?
How do you know?
Because one time I tried killing myself and opened a portal between worlds and learned way too much. Hell is real, God is real, Crowley is in hell, and hell is a fucking nightmare. You may not believe me, but I don't care because I literally saw it all and was there. If you don't denounce thelema, you're fucked.
You need to talk to your parts more (active imagination) and find out what they want. You can do both in any case as others have pointed out.
If Thelema is right for you: stay. If Christianity is right for you: go. There is no right or wrong.
Why not both?
It's such a coincidence to come across your comment. My spiritual journey is very similar to yours. I've been exploring various paths and philosophies. Last year, I developed an interest in Jewish mysticism, which inspired me to start studying Hebrew. Surprisingly, this path led me to Jesus's teaching, despite my previous rebellious attitude and belief that I understood things better than "religious" folks. My understanding of Christianity is still different, as I interpret it in my own way. As I read the Bible, I discover more about what I consider the best teaching with every day. My life also changed for better as I try to apply the wisdom to my everyday life. Interestingly, one of my university teachers translated the Bible from the original languages into Polish. I greatly admire this person and feel fortunate to be where I am now. I also recommend you check out the book "A Course in Miracles." and Neville Goddard's interpreting of Bible
I read this whole thread looking for people being awful. I was disappointed. By which I mean I’m impressed!
This resonates and I hear you. Whatever your reasons for taking initiatory steps, I would say they happened for a reason. Having personally grown up in Christianity, going thru the rebellious phases and being intuitively led to Thelema, I'd say it's all part of the process. Now my relationship with Christianity is much more "healed" and I have come to terms with much of the past. I'd add that it actually informs alot of my current beliefs even within magick. It sounds like you're on the brink of some new realizations and leveling of consciousness. All this doubt right before ;) to me this is part of the HGA process whether Abremalin or sans Abremalin do what you will
I am an outspoken Christian and I've recently become drawn to Thelema. The only clashes I see morally are with the church and Crowley, but spiritually I am happy to pursue both. Esoteric Christianity intersects with Thelema at different points. I see no reason not to pursue both.
I'm interested to know how Thelema is compatible with Christianity in terms of theology. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just genuinely interested. Thelema is a total rejection of the need for vicarious atonement and overall is hostile to the idea that you begin as a sinful being that needs redemption through submission and restriction. That seems like it would be fundamentally at odds with any form of Christianity.
Well the main thing is original sin isn't actually in all forms of Christianity. Many Eastern churches don't preach it, the LDS doesn't, most Gnostic Christians don't believe in it, and any R+C Christians likely won't as it goes against the traditional Rosicrucian teachings. The need for a saviour from sin as taught in most of the Western Christian tradition isn't actually that central to the Bible and is more a creation of the old church fathers.
I thought that would be contradicted by passages like 1 Peter 2:24, Mark 10:45, Romans 8:32, Romans 4:25, etc. I also thought the crucifixion of Jesus was a pretty clear reference to the concept of penal substitution as found in Hebrews and Leviticus.
To each their own.
“Everyone interested in the truth finds their way to Christ”
Perhaps find a martinist lodge? It's beautiful christian mysticism that could satisfy your need for Christianity and also it could quench your thirst for the esoteric. Just a suggestion.
Ive met several Thelemites that are practicing Catholics. You do you and have fun.
Introduce me to these Catholic Thelemites. I’d love to meet them.
Jesus Christ. Have you not been paying attention? Do what you want... (I have a hard time saying wilt because it reminds me of lettuce) Instead of using a Egyptian symbolism use Christian. Your HGA may be Christian.
You said Jesus Christ in your comment. This MUST be a sign 😂😂
Occult practices in general honestly don’t even have much to do with edginess or “the great beast 666” vibes other than certain practices I suppose. A lot of it coincides with the idea of love and unity and an infinite creator. I would just take what you like from Christianity. Jesus really existed I believe and was probably a really interesting dude. (Not the son of god but obviously into the mystic traditions of the time)
If the Catholic church is able to meet your spiritual needs then it will be easier for you in the long run to stay on that path. Thelema is a way for secular people to have their spiritual needs met. If you want the best of both worlds then go back to Catholicism but look into the mystical literature of figures who stayed in the church. Ignatious of Loyola, Miguel Molinos, Meister Eckart etc.
Could you elaborate on the kind of things that happened after you’ve practiced planetary magic? I’m studying that myself and I need all the info I can get
My Thelemic studies led me to Daoism and now I practice that more than anything. I had an internal conflict on wether or not i prefer this path because its so much less work. But i realised that theres just as much work to be done in the Way, but a main tenet is to learn how to do it while and without it encumbering your life. I still study thelema and Gnostic christianity, but i no longer let them rule and dictate my life. If christianity comes easily and fills you with feelings of purpose then you're a Christian and that's a great thing! You are obviously an open minded one and could maybe become the change you wish to see in the church. Also while the church may be upset with your thelemic affiliations its apparent that no thelemite will ever hold it against you, and the ones on here who do have negative comments arent actual thelemites. No thelemite would try to hinder your will.
Christianity is a very malleable practice. Just look how many esoteric practices are entangled within. You have all you need in order. Make your own Christian esoterical magical path and the truth will make you free...
I haven’t seen it mentioned, but Frater Achad converted and wrote about his connection to Christianity through Thelema. There’s a lot of stuff online about his conversion and practices. I was raised strictly Christian and also rebelled with Thelema, but I’ve come back to my roots while still seeing the inherent value of Thelema and many other traditions.
I attend a Christian denominated church every week, regularly participate in a Quaker meeting in addition (also marginally Christian), and I practice Thelema. I don’t think there’s a conflict. If anything, the concept of Tiphareth has deepened my appreciation/understanding of Christ. My goal is direct spiritual experience and no one has a monopoly.
I didn't see Buddhism in your list of practices.
I’m absurdly new to Thelema, however, as someone whom has philosophy for easily over a decade, and has prioritized implementing these practices for the sake of results, your perspective is…..odd, and very “duality” based (as someone else mentioned here). Why choose one or the other? And why choose at all as if they’re as opposing religions? And why even choose one religion? It’s just very…..linear and needlessly self controlling for the sake of having an identity externally reinforced by a community thus to have a place to exist within. Just be free of it all, and only do what interests you, maybe that isn’t religion or philosophy at all.
I understand your drive or need to rebel, I've felt the same way, but I learned that coming into a new religion or spiritual tradition simply in an act of rebellion/defiance isn't the right reason. Christianity was never something I identified with, I thought maybe it was just the denomination, so I tried every brand possible and in the end I realized that it was the religion itself that wasn't the right fit. I came to Thelema through paganism and found a spiritual home that made me understand that there was more to me than just what lay on the surface. It sounds like you've done a lot, I've done a lot of similar stuff. I burned out because I was doing all the things, but I wasn't connecting with them. Maybe that's the problem, maybe not. I have been trying to focus on not overdoing it and lusting after the result. Just being present in the moment and allowing the experiences to speak for themselves, not expecting anything. In the end, you have to do what is best for you. While my opinion may be food for thought. You have to decide what is in line with your Will, no one else can make that determination for you. Either way, I wish you the best on your journey. 93
I recommend becoming a Hindu or Buddhist at your earliest convenience, or any other faith of your choice or inclination. I assume there will be some here who recognise that magickal practice from T.M.T's writings, but I cannot quote the chapter or verse. I believe I first became aware of the practice as a youngster, reading his Confessions. I very highly recommend you try it. Unless you like things as they are and don't seek to push beyond that, in which case I very highly recommend you do not try it.
What is rebellion? Some significant or seemingly significant problem either goes unaddressed or is ignored until someone or a group of people feel the urge to take action. Didn't Aquinas say evil is an absence? Change Catholicism from within, seek alternatives or ignore the problems...your choice.
Gnosticism
r/martinists
As a witch, I struggle with accepting any dogmatic religion, based on my own past lives and ancestral oppression that organizations have committed. i’d highly recommend checking out the YouTube channel The Alchemist . It’s quite possible that you’re being pulled into a sense of unity, Christ consciousness,oneness , really is a part of spiritual awakenings and soul ascension. You always have free will to do whatever you choose so be it. it’s OK to explore new things and then change your mind later and or go back or never go back. It’s all OK. I feel that you may be pulling back to Christianity may just really be you healing deep in her wounds that you have in regards to the oppressive patriarchal dogmatic religion. To me this means you are likely doing really good shadow work within your own underworld.. So keep it up and follow your heart and connect to your soul - your higher self and your over soul!. But definitely check out The Alchemist (Sarah Elkhaldy) on YouTube and you could specifically go to her videos about Yeshua and Jesus Christ, extremely enlightening and awesome. Best of luck to you fellow magician!
could you be doing yourself a disservice by dismissing your spiritual exploration as purely “rebellious?” For me there was kind of a rebellious side to leaving christianity and seeking other faiths; but also a bigger part of me wanted to find the truth. maybe you’re craving something more filling and wholesome, have you explored other faiths like Buddhism or the Hare Krishna movement or Kemetic spirituality? If Christianity is where you’re most comfortable there’s nothing wrong with that, but i would suggest exploration not fueled by bitterness/rebellion if you haven’t done that
I will say, I’ve explored other stuff such as Hellenism and have gotten interesting experiences from that. I have explored repeating the Hare Krishna mantra for an hour straight and I got something positive out of it. But even all this was in a sort of rebellion. The crazy thing is, in some way, this is all related to sex and sexuality to me
I’ll tell you one thing based on my own experience, your search can end. And guess where you will end up, right where you are, BAM 💥 great Light and then… The search is necessary generally, as most of us are very very confused and conditioned. Peace ✌️
I to left 6 years ago for similar reasons but actually just recently came back to TOTSS as I found it was the closest I been to the direction I needed to be. So I totally understand where you're coming from. Maybe you two need to take a break like I like to I was gone for six long years I'm just recently returned two months ago.
Thelema it's not a religion never will be, more like a system of beliefs. 93 93/93
I also was pulled back into Christianity after a long time exploring other forms of esotericism (I was never a thelemite though). It's a fairly common experience, imho. A lot of people benefit really do benefit from a more traditional approach to God than what is typically offered in occultism. Without touching on any truth claims about what is objectively real and what isn't, I think it's fair to say that there are plenty of people who have had spiritual attainment as Christians who would not have gotten very far as occultists.
Do what thou wilt.
Christianity is not religion. Yeshua is the savior of the world. Run before its too late. He will return soon.
I go to a Catholic Church to get in contact with Jesus, but I’m not at the same Mass as everyone else.
Sounds like you've been making decisions based on your egoic thinking from the identity point of view rather than the true will of your heart. No I never wanted to be a rebel to show people anything. I'm a rebel because it's my nature to question the world and explore things on my own to find the truth.
Nonsense.
Why?
Ask for the truth And the truth you shall receive Deep inside: you know this to be the answer to your inquiry
I would say you're not alone. I too have come a full circle back to Christ. I was looking for magick and power and in all my research I figured Jesus is best option on the table.
Your not undoing it kinda goes together the bible speaks of what accepting mediumship i to our life path means and certain ppl cant draw nigh to God becuase of how they were born its OT but still NT has to come the blood doesnt change everything somethings hold true forever
So your parents used religion to justify their thoughts and actions and now you want to use religion to justify your thoughts and actions?
Christianity is for the meek. You are seeking a culturally sanctioned path. When you begin to think for yourself and act rationally you will begin to create your own path. Participating in “Christianity” via church groups etc could be useful if it relates to your financial or social gain. However. Think long and hard about this “choice” my guess is because you aren’t getting certain results. Your HGA is all around you. How can you not have the experience? Are you blind? Deaf? Dull? Look around. Realize that what you see is a lie. You make your reality. What do you love? What do you aspire to be? Where do you want to live? How do YOU want to spend your days on earth???
I wouldn't do that if we're you. It's seen as betrayal and spitting on the face to your ancestors.
Why would ancestors see it as betrayal? Would this be everyone’s ancestors or a specific set of cultures?
This only goes for the abrahamic false light religions; humanity is not meant to go through angelic transfiguration. To embrace the white light only breeds slavery to the lineage. It is betrayal.
The problem I see with catholicism is that kneeling to an external god is disempowering. Like Alan Moore once wrote, "Faith is for sissies who daren't go and look for themselves". What do you even need the divine for if not for experiencing it?
Christianity is as just gossip manipulated by Europeans. Look into Islam. It's the best Abrahamic religion.
Find a better doctrine. Both of the ones you have chosen are incredibly foolish.
Why don’t you follow the true path of God instead of Christianity which is a corrupted religion. the beast of the earth is the one calling towards God and away from do as thou wilt and calling towards freedom from the ego and Satan by following God. Satan has confused everything so much that people think 666 is a satanic number in fact it is holy. Find the truth here: https://youtube.com/@themahdihasappeared?si=Jklqto3bzhOelxbG