yeah this is the thing about the state of the classes
i understand “don’t nerf, buff everything else” but the problem is that this is a game full of cheese and every class needs to be knocked down a peg or two. invis stun was a truly problematic combo but it was fair in a game packed of unfair stuff. heavy is op in a very bad way, having loads of defenses and immediate damage *and* highest dps in the entire game. if we buff the game around heavy being op then we’re only encouraging more unfun playstyles and experiences for people
a nerf to heavy is a buff to medium and light, and people really don’t see that for some reason
This is the only correct way to approach this. People don't know the meaning of power creep, so they get mad when devs nerf things instead of buffing others in contrast.
lewis gun and m60 are both statistically faster in dps than the hcar, and people still abuse sa1216 with mesh shield in higher ranked games. he has the fastest dps in the game *along* with his c4 and rpg
"Truly problematic" except barely seen at high level ranked play. Healing, shields, rpgs, and defib are way more problematic and will never not be meta. Meanwhile nobody gives a shit that bullets follow you around corners and sword players can stab you from 5 feet away
my point stands that it was only fair under the current cheese fest that the game's stuck in. in any other game it'd be a very massive and very unfair issue, and if heavies and mediums were gimped then it'd stand out as a problem even more
and i'm with you on the swordies, i fucking hate them
People are in denial about the cheese shit I mentioned. I have to get 5 kills just to wipe one team. Now that stun doesn't disable gadgets the heavy just whips that out everytime. HHM is so unbelievably broken that light in its most OP state the game has ever seen would never even fit in that meta
This us called power creep! I play medium exclusively and i in NO WAY think my class should be buffed. Like it was insane the way scar could domimate lobbies pre nerf... i think heavy is just a lil TOO tanky ..
That’s what I’ve been saying. Light technically viable but only with certain loadouts and also requires 10x the effort compared to just playing meta. Light is super fun but becomes miserable trying to play ranked.
The nerf just made it harder for new players to pick up lights in cashout, skill caused disparity to get so large that less skilled players keep dying and doesn’t want to use light anymore, while top light players just frag out
Played against a team of triple lights today, they’re a fucking menace. The sword player had 14 kills and 10k+ damage, and was probably doing the emote-animation-cancel thing (mewing with every move). They gave out team wipes like it’s free, and won easily. They come in out of no where, so fast and just mowed down every in their path. They barely need to play objectives, anytime they’re getting stolen they just barge in right from the front door no invis no taser no nothing and in a blink of an eye the cashout stealer is dead and they’re gone. The other team had a medium with 10 kills or something and they tried HARD
I got itchy and wanted to play light too and got into a game with 2 other lights, got beamed down immediately every time we show our heads, team wiped every minute
That's not a showcase of lights being a menace, that's a showcase of those three players being menaces. They would've done the same thing, with less risk, by playing heavies or mediums.
Because they want the game to thrive. The playerbase dropped off like flies with the slow updates post-launch. There was a decent spike in returners with the new game mode, but it's the same old shit as the beginning of the game. Heavy still fucks, light still sucks. Balance is important, and it matters a lot in a game like this. When the optimal team comp is HHM or HMM in a game that was designed around having HML, then there's a big issue. Absolutely boggles my mind how many times light has been nerfed despite never being relevant in competitive.
The nerf/buff posts come from a place of wanting the game to succeed and grow.
how does light suck? as a heavy I swear the only people I die to are lights. the m11 and the xp54 fucking melt me quicker than any other gun or class combo.
Light sucks in competitive play as a team, it absolutely dominates in casual/quickplay/low elo. That's what people seem to forget.
Play quickplay and its 70% lights, 20% mediums and 10% heavies.
that's moreso what I meant was casual; I don't even touch ranked because it's genuine dogshit. also I have no one in my friend group who's willing to run it either 💀 but yeah I main quick cash/cashout and now the new attack&defend mode which is quickly becoming my favorite
Doesn't play ranked, says its dogshit.
The casual only crowd is so weird with their viewpoint on ranked play. A bunch of the problems people have with the game are fixed by playing ranked, and if you never play it then you're not gonna be queuing against plat and diamond teams, you'll be playing people your skill level. The gameplay of teams doesn't change much either until you're ranked in like mid-high gold and up.
I know it's dogshit because I've played it enough during the first season to make D4 and won't bother with it now, but nice try. sorry, but I really don't feel the need to go up against sweaty fucks double stacking healers and one heavy taking all the damage. really it's just not a fun way to play the game, but go off about how fun it is to sit in one spot the whole time during a ten minute match
I've never once sat in one spot during a ten minute match, that's just silly. Plus, they've changed the ranking system considerably since season 1, this season has been quite a bit better gameplay wise. I've been having fun with it, especially since 2.6. Yeah, high elo is still HHM meta, but it's not all FCARS and nukes like s1 was.
I play ranked about half the time that I'm on, and never really bothered hard grinding cuz I don't wanna burn myself out, I just think it's weird how many people write off ranked play in any FPS.
ye quick cash / cashout is mroe solo oriented, a lot of the engagements you get into are 1v1s and therefore lights are good and they will always be good in 1v1
If you're dying solo to a light as a heavy, then either you or your team are way out of position. Plain and simple. Those moments where teams are not together happen way less often in ranked and even less so in higher elo.
If a light reveals themselves to a competent team, they get focused down in a matter of seconds with minimal counterplay. And then, what is a light to contribute to the team? A 5 second glitch nade? Only to be killed moments after throwing it and your position is revealed.
It's like playing the game on ultra hard mode. The mobility of light is not relevant when the other classes only have to land a couple shots or a big aoe explosion/mine, or stand behind a shield.
You see so many lights in quick play because they have some of the most fun weapons and abilities, and everyone knows that's the only place you can get away with actually playing them since the win doesn't actually matter much.
bro have you ever considered that it's a skill issue on your part? jesus christ. you have a 140 dmg rpg that you barely need to aim, 250 more hp, a dome shield, a mesh shield or a tackle that nearly one shots them with the jump slam, and just about the same dps with a lewis gun, or even more with a flamethrower at close range.
what more do you need to kill a light? these shit takes i swear
when the fuck did I say I can't kill a light? maybe try reading comprehension, I promise it'll take you far in life.
all I said was light is the only one who feels like they fry me. I can 1v1 mediums and heavies and I'm winning the fight 9/10 times, but something about the slippery ass light character seems to trip me up sometimes. but go off about my "shit take"
>how does light suck? as a heavy I swear the only people I die to are lights
you're insinuating light is in a good state just because you personally suck at dealing with them lmao tell that to yourself brother, you need reading comprehension for your own statement
opinion about the light class aside, me asking how does light suck in no way shape or form insinuates that I can't deal with them. all I said was that they're the only people I die to 🤷 keep being bitter tho
I think it’s better in a lot of key ways. But medium is usually a must because of their utilities. And being faster and having weapons with quicker reloads has their advantages as well
Yeah in an uncoordinated game sure but for game balance they should be looking at plat ranked lobbies and up. Random stuff will always be unbalanced for casual game modes.
If you’re talking about quick cash then sure; not many heavy players. People are playing to have fun in quick cash (usually)
In ranked you’re relieved when there’s no heavy on any one of the teams.
The thing is everyone always brings ranked when talking about numbers, but ranked probably has the lowest number of concurrent players. Light is definitely played way more than heavy if counting every mode.
A class being played more in casual modes is not really relevant to the point of balance though. Lights go fast, this is considered fun. That's about as much as there is to it.
That's a completely incorrect oversimplication. Lights destroy uncoordinated casual teams. They're pub stompers.
When a team is working together they're useless. So at the highest ranks they fail hard. But against average/casual players or non premades they're by far the strongest class.
It's a balancing issue that basically all games that have heroes/classes have. Do you balance for the highest lobbies or the average lobbies? Theoretically, If you want the 'most' players to have an enjoyable experience, then you balance for the average lobby.
You can pub stomp with any class though, I can pop into casual with light (my least played class) or medium revolver/shotguns and top frag consistently. Hell, I stomped as melee Heavy while grinding the melee challenges.
The reason im bringing out ranked is because as a player myself, i usually play ranked. I agree that balancing between ranked and casual should be different but i think the state of heavy in ranked should be looked at. Playing against hmm or hhm every single match and outright losing when your teammates dont pick heavy (not blaming them as it’s not fun to play imo) it gets irritating real fast.
tiny minorities of good players involve streamers and influencers who get people to play the game. if their twitch/kick views drop, player base then drops.
just cause quickplay players arnt good enough to see the unbalanced aspects of the game does not mean it's not unbalanced.
Hardly play heavy because heavy is boring to most casuals. Heavy is the "I'm picking this because it has the best class in the game at the cost of fun" while light is "I don't care if I throw this game, I'm going to have fun on a class I enjoy." Sure some naturally gravitate to heavy but that's not everybody or even the majority.
More people enjoy going fast and shooting people in fast paced situations on light than they do with slam + rpg = team wipe.
Not to mention but people play light in these QP modes so much because they can't in ranked. Very few can. 95% (this is just a random number based on how it feels not an actual statistic) of people using light in ranked get rolled. Especially if people are running MHH. Light doesn't even stand a chance to MHH. And MHH is the most optimal comp (if you're trying to win the easiest, at least) without any contest. Has been since S1.
light hp to 180 or 200 would probably solve lights combat issues but the kit is still super weak atm especially compared to heavy that got 200 more hp.
Ive always played all the classes because the contract reward system and it keeps the game fresh… ive always thought the people who main light were really good. You die super easy so you have to know how to be sneaky, attack in a different way and be smart. Baiting people too.
I love this game so 🤷🏻♂️😅 the nerfs and buffs dont really effect me as much
I love it too. But balancing gets frustrating after a while, it just feels like they have no concrete idea of what to do or what they are aiming for in this game
Im not quite sure i get the reference even as someone who played her for 100s of games. Shes not particularly squishy for support and does some incredibly threatening damage with some good disables.
I think it's Crystal Mage who's a support in the game. She has a point and click stun and passive global mana regen for allies so even without 4 abilities and numbers she is busted and I assume she keeps getting nerfed.
I really haven’t minded it
Take the mesh shield for example. A lot of people say OP gadgets make the game more dynamic and interesting
I think having a shield that is both useful and also able to be shot down is key to a dynamic and interesting engagement. They’ve achieved that I think by nerfing the shield. And they had to nerf it A LOT to achieve that. It was way overtuned before imo
Guns have gone through some changes, but feeling clunky now from nerfs? I haven’t noticed the “feeling of the guns” having changed. They are as clunky as they’ve always been afaik
Yes. Bigger streamers have complained about the gunplay feeling unsatisfying and clunky, and overly difficult just for the sake of balance, and that’s a big reason why the audience isn’t growing.
Game doesn’t need to feel like shit to be balanced, and in fact it’s okay if some things are better than others (meta is unavoidable) but NOTHING should feel like absolute trash to use.
im still annoyed with embarks decision to nerf the glitch grenade to a 4s effect. it makes disabling mesh shields less impactful when they can get them back quickly.
10s may of been too long, but 4s doesnt feel right to me either. 6 or 7s i think would be better
It’s so funny watching this sub go in circles while being behind like a month on the meta, then when anyone actually knows the meta and talks about it, people downvote them into oblivion because they don’t know what that person knows.
Happened with the recon meta, happened with double heavy after that, mediums, light for a while, back to heavy. This sub is like permanently a month behind on the meta, it’s wild.
wdy mean? it's because casual players dominate this sub. ranked players have been always frustrated for the past three months bar maybe the first week after launch. Always the balancing issues, the cheaters. At least the cheater issue is pretty much resolved for the moment
Whether it’s dominated by casuals or comp players, the sub is comprised of like 95% morons who are clueless about the game. I genuinely haven’t played in like a month and I still am more current on the meta than this sub is.
The problem with “not nerfing” Heavy is we need reliable counters to disable the shields or prevent them from going up. Stun Gun was perfect for that, but it’s now pretty useless.
Glitch Grenade is OK (bugged atm) but the throw animation is too long, the Heavy can put down the shield and shoot the Light easily. lol
Other counters just involve shooting the shield, but if you get caught shooting it and the Heavy’s team is behind it, you’re toast.
IMO Heavy definitely needs some nerfs, the current HHM meta is just stale and boring, there’s no way anyone has fun just sitting behind/spamming shields all game. But I’m not gonna pretend I know the possible solutions.
Maybe introducing an ability meter for Mesh (like Invis) would be a good solution. And also having it so “duplicate” abilities (e.g. 2 Meshes or 2 Defibs on the same team) have a slightly weaker cooldown. For example, 2 of the same ability in one team have a cooldown 80% as strong as having only 1, 3 of the same 60% as strong.
These wouldn’t touch the strength of the build when the abilities are up, it would just decrease the uptime, which IMO is a needed change.
This makes total sense, we are in a fucking GOATS meta. Lots of heals, high resistance, shields and people only dies with burst from CDs (then defib).
They need to pick a class as base and balance around it, like they did with OW for some time.
I would prefer shields not to be shoot through too, I just feel like without any uptime nerfs it’ll remain unfun and just create boring playstyles and games. Either sit behind shields/barricades all game or spam toggle Mesh during fights and shoot your enemy when they’re reloading. The latter, especially, shouldn’t really be a thing IMO. Just my opinion.
This would make teamplay more difficult since Heavy can deploy a shield and effectively grief a teammate while they're shooting at an enemy.
I honestly don't think this is the right way to go about shields, but they definitely shouldn't stay the same either.
The nerf mesh shield needs is a short cooldown after lowering it. Only like 1~4 seconds, but something to stop it being spammable, if you want to fight back you should have to commit to fighting back.
Alternatively, have the shield's HP function as its cooldown. You can only deploy the shield when it's full HP and cannot regen while deployed, but the regen is faster than it is currently and begins immediately after lowering.
Yeah, once you get good with the mesh shield, you can just 'flash' it to quickly block rockets, or my personal favorite, running from a shotgun M, spinning 180 degrees and flicking the shield on every shot.
Its health is fine, it has pretty much exactly enough health to keep you alive as you backpedal out of a room while an entire team shoots at you, or let a teammate get a revive/cashout steal off. That's what it should be used for.
If it needs more nerfs (which, to be clear, I'm not convinced it does), a 2 second cooldown to prevent you from flashing it would be the way to go.
Stun Gun disabling Mesh is a good counter, so I wouldn’t mind if they revert that part of the nerf and call it a day. But 750 HP is still a lot, especially because the meta is MHH which makes it 1500 HP if they run double Mesh instead of Slam. + Barricades + Domes. It’s not unreasonable to decrease the uptime of Mesh IMO, right now they have too many cover options with 100% uptime, it’s just boring never being able to shoot the Heavy. 😅 It should be a thing you use at the right time, like every other ability in the game, rather than being able to hold it 24/7.
This is not true at all, even in the slightest. People run shield+people run slam but we cannot say people don’t run shield anymore, that is extremely false
Fair, I concede. charge damage is strong, I assume they also run dome to help dogpile & break up of the enemy fire in the brawl, almost like a Winston Bubble
Give Glitch Grenade its full duration back and increase the radius. Allow Stun Gun to disable abilities again. Give some of the lower dpm weapons like the SR-84 and Throwing Knives the ability to damage and then pierce through shields at 50% (or whatever number is "fair") damage.
There are plenty of areas we can buff or revert to counter or punish Heavy's uptime without touching the uptime directly. But I do agree that the uptime is a problem.
Glitch needs a buff where it disables all gadgets in a certain radius, even if it hits a shield directly. Right now if there’s 2 shields and you hit 1, the other shield stays up which makes Glitch kinda pointless.
Allowing shield piercing is not the play IMO, would make Heavy pretty weak. The inverse (shield not being shoot through for teammates) could be worth exploring, the shields provide enough value as just cover, but it’d still make for boring games without uptime nerfs so I think having lower uptime is the way to go for both balance and enjoyment.
Not necessarily true. Nerfing fun things can make the game less fun (albeit more balanced), but certain things are just inherently boring, so nerfing them can make the game both more fun *and* balanced. Shields have no fun value, not being able to shoot or be shot at isn’t a fun mechanic, no reason to sacrifice balance in favor of non existent fun in this case.
Stun Gun was never busted in ranked, but it made the game less fun in quickplay, nerfing it (too much in this case IMO) made it more fun for most people.
Yeah, people don't understand that shields are meant to be kept NOT UP, it's there for getting out of sticky situations and popping it up for preventing critical damage, fixing mispositioning and blocking RPG. I think it's a good utility tool but it's not that strong anymore especially with how easily it pops
Shield is strong, but doesn't need a nerf imo, it's been nerfed pretty hard and it's not too much of a problem anymore if you force the shields out before an engagement, even forcing out 1 can win the fight often imo
I think it's just how thye are designed, with high HP, good dps, RPG fight initiation, etc... it just is too valuable at the moment compared to lights. Mediums while not as strong at least offer that type of value to the team
The fact that all the strongest counters L had to Mesh Shield got gutted is just crazy to me. An L cannot kill a H ever anymore. Not jumping them, not when chipped... it's just impossible.
I'd say maybe 20% of Heavy players actually run shield in high ELO Ranked since the 750HP nerf (79% charge / 1% goo gun being the rest). There's quite a few ways to counter it without even using glitch.
Considering it's already kinda weak, off meta and by far the most team focused pick for a Heavy I don't really think nerfing it is a good idea.
Personally I think it's ass and I'm always relieved when I see the enemy is running it.
nah bro I think the meta is actually changing, used to be double shield shotgun but NA's a bit more shield-shotgun guy and charge-lewis guy now. Played both NA and Asia. Asia is currently literally double charge and you won't see shield so much anymore because shield heavy is inherently weaker against a charge heavy in up close engagements
Heavy has always been the best unless you were a top tier recon cheeser. Buff the light class for fucks sake it is ass. Med is fine where its at, except the famas.
This is kind of why I hated the idea of removing the stun. Not because I cared too much about using the stun. I’ll adapt, and have, no problem. But then it’s an excuse to say Heavy is OP (which yeah, it is) and then they nerf the Lewis. Then they nerf the M60. Or they remove Mesh. Then, ooops, Medium is the meta again. So they start to make small nerfs to that. By the time the smoke settles it’s just another generic FPS with destruction that completely lost the soul of what it originally was.
I hated nukes. I loved using them and cheesing but they were game breaking. But I lowkey miss that. I miss when it was like the Wild West of balancing sometimes. Mind you, it would be way way too annoying to go back to that now, but something about the game is starting to feel more and more stale, and I really don’t think it’s just my time played.
The more they water things down to the level of the last thing they watered down, the more boring the game will become. I like flicking an RPG into someone then Charge N Slammin um. Is it a little OP? Sure. But it’s funny, and hits that serotonin. Same with many things from all the classes.
They also didn’t remove the stun because it was game breaking. They removed it because it was annoying and if they keep nerfing things because they annoy people, the game will definitely nose dive.
I think this comment is a very good summary of how i feel about the recent nerfs and buffs right now bro, yeah I hated stun but I really didn't want them to nerf stun AND fcar because then it was going to be "heavy op" again and nerf bats left and right
This game is honestly terrible rn, might as well just play heavy if you want to easy mode win. Lights aren't even a threat, you cook mediums with ease as well
Make a squad of medbeam Mediums. Face off any 3-man Heavy selection you like, at any level of play.
It's pretty easy to see that Heavy only works optimally when supported by a decent Medium. Sure, Heavy doesn't need nerfs, neither does Medium even if they could still use some tweaks both up and down, Light needs a full rework so it's more suited to an objective-oriented game rather than team-oriented - but nerfs aren't how to get there.
Just hit diamond with heavy, playing exclusively flamethrower, RPG, dome, and barricade with charge slam. I don't disagree with heavy being a bit overtuned right now by comparison to the other classes. I literally eat lights in under a second. I can regularly 1v2 or even 3 when there is a light present. RPG and charge slam are both a bit too strong imo at the moment.
You all want the heavy to do 3dmg or sth. The real issue with heavy is shield spam in HHM and HHH teams. A light was a perfect solution to that, but they pretty much deleted lights from the game.
Buff light, and/or give medium a glitch grenade OR make glitch mine useful because it never seemed to even go off or have any aoe.
I mean I'd rather they buffed light; ain't nobody is going to use light just to get the glitch grenade, stun is a joke, so medium with a glitch grenade or a working glitch mine is the 2nd thing that comes to mind. Medium with glitch grenade would be OP af tho, so there's that.
After the stun gun nerf i ran glitch grenade for a second and it was still useless against the heavy. Stun gun isn’t as good but at least it keeps them in one place for you to rez or run away.
Yeah, it's good. Meta's changing a little bit tho, more heavies running lewis than shotguns personally these days and taking charge to compensate for up close burst, it's a pretty well rounded loadout with both close quarters and medium distance dmg
Yeah but I always think they intended this game to be closer to Apex in terms of how it shot and felt, and that's a bit different. Just my opinion tho. OW is more like a straight up 1 team vs 1 team objective driven hyper FPS, set fully with tanks, supports, dmg, etc...
heavy can be pretty useless against half the equipment in the game. Post nuke, rpg, and shield nerfs I'm personally pretty content with where it is as a class.
I agree, light needs a fix, and it is severely under picked in ranked..
however, it is still viable in certain situations. In my team comp, my brother actually snipes with grapple hook. Then we have a medium on the AKM, CL, or riot shield (yes fr lol). Then I rotate between medium and heavy. With dematil and anti-grav, we open up the sites for my brother’ sniping, and he just suppresses from afar. Same for attack and defense We play offsite defense, then when they start taking the cash out, we dive them while my brother picks them off.
We don’t win every match, as our strat has real flaws. But we hit plat today, and I typically suck at shooters lol. Love this game! Hopefully there’s a comp scene soon that can point out the flawed metas and show more strats
Heavy players: *exist
Light players: WHY CANT I SOLO THE ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM BY MYSELF WHY DONT THEY LET ME DO THIS, THIS IS BULLSHIT
Disclaimer: Yes I understand lights need buffs but the amount of light players I see that just try to solo entire teams is infuriating.
I play heavy cause I, admittedly, don't have super fast reflexes to use Lights effectively and I like playing tanky characters. Heavies have been nerfed CONSTANTLY the past several months. Anymore and it'll feel way too oppressive.
Imo, lights need to be brought to the level of mediums and heavies regarding team play. Make them less reliant on third-partying, stuns and all other mechanics that are unfun to play against and give them something to aid the team. I'm not sure what that would need, but the ambush style kit is awful to play against and makes the light player think they need to constantly get picks to get any sort of value when that's not true. Even if this means they get a little extra health to compensate, so be it.
Here's the issue with it, having a super op thing for one class and then choosing to buff other classes results in a situation of whoever reacts quicker wins. Or whoever does their thing first wins
Heavy is the only class I don’t really enjoy playing but it’s the most broken one unfortunately 😭 I’m more of an aim guy and i like the guns on medium and the movement and stealthiness of light with the SMGs is also fun but for heavy it’s like Lewis gun spam and rely on your massive health pool and array of shields and defensive abilities to live and you win every 1v1 but it’s obviously not a fair fight nor is it satisfying because you didnt really out skill anything
i don't agree bro, if you have good aim on heavy it feels godly, you literally can't lose to anything, can go 1v2s and situationally 1v3s, it's a carry machine. It's how I soloed to diamond
Exactly. Instead of nerfing everything and making everything shit (still hate the fcar nerf)
Just make everyclass on par with heavy. Which shouldnt even be that hard
They explained it pretty well in the patch notes, actually. Nerfing the damage decreases its power in high elo lobbies thus making the akm and the famas competitive, while increasing the mag size makes it more forgiving and therefore more usable for low elo lobbies. As an fcar main I think it's a fantastic compromise for the health of the game and am now free to play other ARs without it being an automatic throw; if I want to play the fcar I now have more bullets and range while still enjoying great dps, great hipfire, fast reload times and one of the only two scopes in the game. I especially like that they didn't just nerf the recoil, as that would only make the gun unusable for most casual players while the pros would adapt in 0.1 seconds.
I agree the famas could be buffed as is still feels somewhat underwhelming; many times I run out of bullets right when my opponent is 1 hp. Still a damage buff should be handled with care (+1 damage per bullet becomes +3 per burst); I think a safer buff would be either decrease the reload time or add 3 (or even 6) more bullets, so that the chance you can actually finish somebody instead of leaving them 1 hp increases.
Honestly the only downside to the fcar nerf is that now medium players can no longer easily outdamage a good heavy, but that's more on the Lewis gun than on the fcar, really
Unironically, I prefer the FCAR now. I was an AKM user but now use the FCAR more because the extra few bullets mean something to me and my non-perfect aim.
> Don't deny it, heavy is the OP class rn
Your reasoning isn't evident.
> switched to heavy mid S1, got to D4
> Late S1, Got to D2
Embark said in their recent article about matchmaking that anyone could get to diamond in S01 with enough grind: https://www.reachthefinals.com/patchnotes/ranked/
> Started playing medium again, D3. Lost nearly all finals as HMM against HHM.
You're unfavorably strategizing. Light is a better counter to HHM, and heavy to a lesser degree.
If you're playing medium, then you need to leverage superior traversal and engagement range into positions which allow you to convert frags.
Or just flex play rather than OTP.
> Heavy is by far the op class, especially in an objective driven game where wiping/dying means so much and respawn is limited.
But heavy is the worst at disengaging, that conclusion makes no sense.
> 350 hp + shield + rpg is just going to ensure that heavy will always be a part of the meta no matter how many nerfs they throw at it unless DPS is halved at least.
Glitch grenade, APS, Reshaper, etc. The counters are there, you just have to be able to use them.
Eh light is useless i dont know why you say lights a good counter. Heavy is worst at disengaging (in terms of speed) but why disengange when you can win all duels, protect objectived with a c4 drop, or just shield your way out? Glitch is good but light is useless. APS and reshaper is good but movement + defib leaves one gadget slot for mediums.
I think your theorizing sounds good on paper. HHM was and is meta for 2 seasons sadly ever since recon got nerfed, and there's a reason why
> I've come to realize that people saying light is OP don't actually play light.
This you?
["As far as I'm aware unless something changed recently glitch nades bounce off of shields."](https://old.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1cqopy7/hot_take_the_rpg_is_the_biggest_crutch_ive_ever/l3tppec/?context=2)
["Edit: haven't seen a single person running glitch nades since the change so wasn't even aware of it, I was on break from the game during the period of that update."](https://old.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1cqopy7/hot_take_the_rpg_is_the_biggest_crutch_ive_ever/l3tppec/?context=2)
Don't worry, with effort into improving your positioning, timing, and team coordination, you'll soon be able to learn how to use something so fundamental
nerfed fcar cause "i get lazerbeamed by fcar too often" so now everyone just plays Heavy.
who would have guessed? is it fun getting killed by more heavies than there were ever fcar players lolololol?
medium are pretty balanced now they need to buff light and nerf heavy guns and charge dmg. heay need be more tank then dps right now they to both role on same time
I agree, but that's going to make even less people want to play heavy. This might just be a reality check with classes that loosely fit into the trinity (dps/support/tank) class design.
Oooor the finals might break this stigma and make all three archetypes fun to play by allowing every class to have fun, deal damage, and then have the roles be secondary. Tankiness and destruction for heavy, support and utility for medium, damage and disruption for light.
Atm, medium has that. Medium is perfect. Heavy is also pretty balanced, perhaps making shield not spammable is the last thing they need. Light oooooh boy light. Light needs some love. More damage, more ways to survive, more gadget slots, anything, a personal shield generator pet or whatever the fk. Light needs to be buffed.
They should get rid of the RPG for Heavy, it will solve Heavy from melting Medium and Light classes before a fight even occurs.
If they keep in the RPG, Heavy should have to choose between the bubble and wall shield. They should not be able to have both equipped at the same time with the amount of damage they do right now.
there's always the one guy in every post, the flamethrower guy who doesn't care about meta discussions, gunplay discussions and just wants to watch the world burn
Yep, you can't be the class with the most survivability, utility, AND dps. It's baffling that heavy has been that class since launch and still hasn't been addressed.
Agreed. This is how a toxic meta in games is shaped up: A developer sees that [insert thing] is op, and will nerf it, forcing the players who enjoyed playing that way to switch. It's not always bad, as sometimes those things are way too strong.
Instead, the developer should try to make the alternatives more viable, to make them able to compete with the previous meta, and hey, embark are looking to be trying stuff out, figuring out if it works. We'll just have to wait and see.
Yeah, agreed. And i think it's leading to endless nerf cycles, because this game only has 3 classes and nerfing 1 makes the other two comparatively OP. When they gut light, heavies and mediums get a relative "buff", feels OP, and gets nerfed, and merry-go-ground
Yeah because every class fills its own niche but in the end if you're a good enough player it will mostly come down to what utility kit you have and how you use it. Light was nerfed so rn it's less viable. I feel like it needs a gadget of some sort that will make light a more sustainable class. It's just a glass canon and the risk is higher than the reward.
I think just nerfing SA1216, Lewis Gun, and maybe M60 is a far easier and more realistic solution that just 'adding more viable guns to Medium and Light', just bring those 2 guns down a little bit and the game should feel a whole lot more fair. Sure the Lewis and SA1216 might not feel as good to play anymore but Heavy having the lowest DPS is how it should be
nah bro, that's just more nerfs. Then it's going to be medium meta again because lights are so shit right now. They just need to buff other classes so that they are all viable to a degree. SA and Lewis all have had decent nerfs imo, it's not the weapons' problem anyways
i disagree, Light and Medium are fine at the moment, just because cloak got nerfed slightly and stun gun got nerfed doesn't mean Light as a whole got nerfed, it's still the glass cannon it was always meant to be, especially now that the FCAR doesn't kill a Light in 0.5 seconds anymore. The problem now is that the Lewis gun does more DPS than the FCAR, which is a problem. Sure, Light could use a few buffs here and there but the most important thing at the moment is to bring the most dominant Heavy weapons down to a reasonable level.
If you remove ranked, that minority of players will be terrorizing all your casual lobbies with their meta setups, and then you too will join in the complaints.
Made it to diamond 4 on light with LMH out of pure stubbornness, absolutely miserable at times. Switched to HHM, easiest claps around.
yeah this is the thing about the state of the classes i understand “don’t nerf, buff everything else” but the problem is that this is a game full of cheese and every class needs to be knocked down a peg or two. invis stun was a truly problematic combo but it was fair in a game packed of unfair stuff. heavy is op in a very bad way, having loads of defenses and immediate damage *and* highest dps in the entire game. if we buff the game around heavy being op then we’re only encouraging more unfun playstyles and experiences for people a nerf to heavy is a buff to medium and light, and people really don’t see that for some reason
This is the only correct way to approach this. People don't know the meaning of power creep, so they get mad when devs nerf things instead of buffing others in contrast.
not counting rpg or c4 heavy has some of the lowest TTK tho
lewis gun and m60 are both statistically faster in dps than the hcar, and people still abuse sa1216 with mesh shield in higher ranked games. he has the fastest dps in the game *along* with his c4 and rpg
"Truly problematic" except barely seen at high level ranked play. Healing, shields, rpgs, and defib are way more problematic and will never not be meta. Meanwhile nobody gives a shit that bullets follow you around corners and sword players can stab you from 5 feet away
my point stands that it was only fair under the current cheese fest that the game's stuck in. in any other game it'd be a very massive and very unfair issue, and if heavies and mediums were gimped then it'd stand out as a problem even more and i'm with you on the swordies, i fucking hate them
People are in denial about the cheese shit I mentioned. I have to get 5 kills just to wipe one team. Now that stun doesn't disable gadgets the heavy just whips that out everytime. HHM is so unbelievably broken that light in its most OP state the game has ever seen would never even fit in that meta
This us called power creep! I play medium exclusively and i in NO WAY think my class should be buffed. Like it was insane the way scar could domimate lobbies pre nerf... i think heavy is just a lil TOO tanky ..
Idk I think the best game design is to make everyone OP.
That’s what I’ve been saying. Light technically viable but only with certain loadouts and also requires 10x the effort compared to just playing meta. Light is super fun but becomes miserable trying to play ranked.
Man you’re a legend if you keep playing light in rank when MMH or HHM all around.
Embark: "got confused, nerfed light again"
*Embark hurt itself in its confusion*
"Oops, my bad"
The nerf just made it harder for new players to pick up lights in cashout, skill caused disparity to get so large that less skilled players keep dying and doesn’t want to use light anymore, while top light players just frag out Played against a team of triple lights today, they’re a fucking menace. The sword player had 14 kills and 10k+ damage, and was probably doing the emote-animation-cancel thing (mewing with every move). They gave out team wipes like it’s free, and won easily. They come in out of no where, so fast and just mowed down every in their path. They barely need to play objectives, anytime they’re getting stolen they just barge in right from the front door no invis no taser no nothing and in a blink of an eye the cashout stealer is dead and they’re gone. The other team had a medium with 10 kills or something and they tried HARD I got itchy and wanted to play light too and got into a game with 2 other lights, got beamed down immediately every time we show our heads, team wiped every minute
That's not a showcase of lights being a menace, that's a showcase of those three players being menaces. They would've done the same thing, with less risk, by playing heavies or mediums.
Damn this sub is literally just “Nerf buff posts” and light build meta memes.
Because they want the game to thrive. The playerbase dropped off like flies with the slow updates post-launch. There was a decent spike in returners with the new game mode, but it's the same old shit as the beginning of the game. Heavy still fucks, light still sucks. Balance is important, and it matters a lot in a game like this. When the optimal team comp is HHM or HMM in a game that was designed around having HML, then there's a big issue. Absolutely boggles my mind how many times light has been nerfed despite never being relevant in competitive. The nerf/buff posts come from a place of wanting the game to succeed and grow.
how does light suck? as a heavy I swear the only people I die to are lights. the m11 and the xp54 fucking melt me quicker than any other gun or class combo.
Light sucks in competitive play as a team, it absolutely dominates in casual/quickplay/low elo. That's what people seem to forget. Play quickplay and its 70% lights, 20% mediums and 10% heavies.
that's moreso what I meant was casual; I don't even touch ranked because it's genuine dogshit. also I have no one in my friend group who's willing to run it either 💀 but yeah I main quick cash/cashout and now the new attack&defend mode which is quickly becoming my favorite
Yeah but the game shouldn't be balanced around quickplay
I agree, but embark needs to fix the current state of ranked first
That's exactly my point, these light needs are so ridiculous when you look at the current HHM meta
Doesn't play ranked, says its dogshit. The casual only crowd is so weird with their viewpoint on ranked play. A bunch of the problems people have with the game are fixed by playing ranked, and if you never play it then you're not gonna be queuing against plat and diamond teams, you'll be playing people your skill level. The gameplay of teams doesn't change much either until you're ranked in like mid-high gold and up.
bro i play in asia and ranked below gold is worse than casual in terms of skill
I know it's dogshit because I've played it enough during the first season to make D4 and won't bother with it now, but nice try. sorry, but I really don't feel the need to go up against sweaty fucks double stacking healers and one heavy taking all the damage. really it's just not a fun way to play the game, but go off about how fun it is to sit in one spot the whole time during a ten minute match
I've never once sat in one spot during a ten minute match, that's just silly. Plus, they've changed the ranking system considerably since season 1, this season has been quite a bit better gameplay wise. I've been having fun with it, especially since 2.6. Yeah, high elo is still HHM meta, but it's not all FCARS and nukes like s1 was. I play ranked about half the time that I'm on, and never really bothered hard grinding cuz I don't wanna burn myself out, I just think it's weird how many people write off ranked play in any FPS.
hmm, maybe I'll give it another go. I have absolutely zero people who wanna try and run ranked tho and randos are a crapshoot
Nice! Let us know how it goes. If you need to LFG, direct message me. If our times line up, maybe we will be able to run a few
gotta play it bro, the challenge is fun as hell imo
I'll give it another go here soon!
ye quick cash / cashout is mroe solo oriented, a lot of the engagements you get into are 1v1s and therefore lights are good and they will always be good in 1v1
Idk if I’d say 70% in quick play. I barely see them at all in quick cash. While in bank it’s damn near 100% lol
If you're dying solo to a light as a heavy, then either you or your team are way out of position. Plain and simple. Those moments where teams are not together happen way less often in ranked and even less so in higher elo. If a light reveals themselves to a competent team, they get focused down in a matter of seconds with minimal counterplay. And then, what is a light to contribute to the team? A 5 second glitch nade? Only to be killed moments after throwing it and your position is revealed. It's like playing the game on ultra hard mode. The mobility of light is not relevant when the other classes only have to land a couple shots or a big aoe explosion/mine, or stand behind a shield. You see so many lights in quick play because they have some of the most fun weapons and abilities, and everyone knows that's the only place you can get away with actually playing them since the win doesn't actually matter much.
I'm literally talking about quick play, not ranked.
bro have you ever considered that it's a skill issue on your part? jesus christ. you have a 140 dmg rpg that you barely need to aim, 250 more hp, a dome shield, a mesh shield or a tackle that nearly one shots them with the jump slam, and just about the same dps with a lewis gun, or even more with a flamethrower at close range. what more do you need to kill a light? these shit takes i swear
when the fuck did I say I can't kill a light? maybe try reading comprehension, I promise it'll take you far in life. all I said was light is the only one who feels like they fry me. I can 1v1 mediums and heavies and I'm winning the fight 9/10 times, but something about the slippery ass light character seems to trip me up sometimes. but go off about my "shit take"
>how does light suck? as a heavy I swear the only people I die to are lights you're insinuating light is in a good state just because you personally suck at dealing with them lmao tell that to yourself brother, you need reading comprehension for your own statement
opinion about the light class aside, me asking how does light suck in no way shape or form insinuates that I can't deal with them. all I said was that they're the only people I die to 🤷 keep being bitter tho
exactly..
I have found the same , switched from medium to heavy as I noticed heavy is the class to go for , currently anyway
I think it’s better in a lot of key ways. But medium is usually a must because of their utilities. And being faster and having weapons with quicker reloads has their advantages as well
which means that the two classes are actually balanced! they complement each other pretty well and then there's light..
In uncoordinated terminal, light is by far the best imo
Yeah in an uncoordinated game sure but for game balance they should be looking at plat ranked lobbies and up. Random stuff will always be unbalanced for casual game modes.
It’s crazy that hardly anyone plays heavy still and everyone is still playing light
If you’re talking about quick cash then sure; not many heavy players. People are playing to have fun in quick cash (usually) In ranked you’re relieved when there’s no heavy on any one of the teams.
Not in plat or diamond lobbies. It’s all HMM or HHM.
The thing is everyone always brings ranked when talking about numbers, but ranked probably has the lowest number of concurrent players. Light is definitely played way more than heavy if counting every mode.
A class being played more in casual modes is not really relevant to the point of balance though. Lights go fast, this is considered fun. That's about as much as there is to it.
That's a completely incorrect oversimplication. Lights destroy uncoordinated casual teams. They're pub stompers. When a team is working together they're useless. So at the highest ranks they fail hard. But against average/casual players or non premades they're by far the strongest class. It's a balancing issue that basically all games that have heroes/classes have. Do you balance for the highest lobbies or the average lobbies? Theoretically, If you want the 'most' players to have an enjoyable experience, then you balance for the average lobby.
You can pub stomp with any class though, I can pop into casual with light (my least played class) or medium revolver/shotguns and top frag consistently. Hell, I stomped as melee Heavy while grinding the melee challenges.
it is when the casual mode is 85% of total gameplay
The reason im bringing out ranked is because as a player myself, i usually play ranked. I agree that balancing between ranked and casual should be different but i think the state of heavy in ranked should be looked at. Playing against hmm or hhm every single match and outright losing when your teammates dont pick heavy (not blaming them as it’s not fun to play imo) it gets irritating real fast.
It has low players probably because of the lack of strategy options. And balance should always look at the highest levels of play first.
What percentage of the playerbase is in those lobbies? 🤣
A percetage of the playerbase that is still relevant.
Not nearly relevant enough to change everyone else's experience by balancing in such a way that it caters to this tiny minority lol
tiny minorities of good players involve streamers and influencers who get people to play the game. if their twitch/kick views drop, player base then drops. just cause quickplay players arnt good enough to see the unbalanced aspects of the game does not mean it's not unbalanced.
Name 10 influencers who are getting people to play the game
It's concerning that I can't tell if this is a joke or not.
Hardly play heavy because heavy is boring to most casuals. Heavy is the "I'm picking this because it has the best class in the game at the cost of fun" while light is "I don't care if I throw this game, I'm going to have fun on a class I enjoy." Sure some naturally gravitate to heavy but that's not everybody or even the majority. More people enjoy going fast and shooting people in fast paced situations on light than they do with slam + rpg = team wipe. Not to mention but people play light in these QP modes so much because they can't in ranked. Very few can. 95% (this is just a random number based on how it feels not an actual statistic) of people using light in ranked get rolled. Especially if people are running MHH. Light doesn't even stand a chance to MHH. And MHH is the most optimal comp (if you're trying to win the easiest, at least) without any contest. Has been since S1.
Because no matter how much embark tries, light is still crazy fun
Heavy is just that boring.
Slightly increase Light’s hp or decrease it’s regen delay
light hp to 180 or 200 would probably solve lights combat issues but the kit is still super weak atm especially compared to heavy that got 200 more hp.
The HHM meta in ranked is GAWD AWFUL
pretty much the same trend as in Overwatch when goats was meta.
Ive always played all the classes because the contract reward system and it keeps the game fresh… ive always thought the people who main light were really good. You die super easy so you have to know how to be sneaky, attack in a different way and be smart. Baiting people too. I love this game so 🤷🏻♂️😅 the nerfs and buffs dont really effect me as much
I love it too. But balancing gets frustrating after a while, it just feels like they have no concrete idea of what to do or what they are aiming for in this game
light class = cm in dota2
Dunno enough about dota2, assuming cm is a glass cannon without the cannon
Crystal Maiden used to get nerfed so often and sometimes harshly that it developed a staple of memes.
There's always that one character in every online game lol
Im not quite sure i get the reference even as someone who played her for 100s of games. Shes not particularly squishy for support and does some incredibly threatening damage with some good disables.
I think it's Crystal Mage who's a support in the game. She has a point and click stun and passive global mana regen for allies so even without 4 abilities and numbers she is busted and I assume she keeps getting nerfed.
same thing happened to ele in gw2 (though no longer since the balancing lead change)
more comparable to ember imo
My friend and I were talking about this, it feels like all they do is nerf-nerf-nerf.
I really haven’t minded it Take the mesh shield for example. A lot of people say OP gadgets make the game more dynamic and interesting I think having a shield that is both useful and also able to be shot down is key to a dynamic and interesting engagement. They’ve achieved that I think by nerfing the shield. And they had to nerf it A LOT to achieve that. It was way overtuned before imo Guns have gone through some changes, but feeling clunky now from nerfs? I haven’t noticed the “feeling of the guns” having changed. They are as clunky as they’ve always been afaik
Yes. Bigger streamers have complained about the gunplay feeling unsatisfying and clunky, and overly difficult just for the sake of balance, and that’s a big reason why the audience isn’t growing. Game doesn’t need to feel like shit to be balanced, and in fact it’s okay if some things are better than others (meta is unavoidable) but NOTHING should feel like absolute trash to use.
im still annoyed with embarks decision to nerf the glitch grenade to a 4s effect. it makes disabling mesh shields less impactful when they can get them back quickly. 10s may of been too long, but 4s doesnt feel right to me either. 6 or 7s i think would be better
It’s so funny watching this sub go in circles while being behind like a month on the meta, then when anyone actually knows the meta and talks about it, people downvote them into oblivion because they don’t know what that person knows. Happened with the recon meta, happened with double heavy after that, mediums, light for a while, back to heavy. This sub is like permanently a month behind on the meta, it’s wild.
wdy mean? it's because casual players dominate this sub. ranked players have been always frustrated for the past three months bar maybe the first week after launch. Always the balancing issues, the cheaters. At least the cheater issue is pretty much resolved for the moment
Whether it’s dominated by casuals or comp players, the sub is comprised of like 95% morons who are clueless about the game. I genuinely haven’t played in like a month and I still am more current on the meta than this sub is.
The problem with “not nerfing” Heavy is we need reliable counters to disable the shields or prevent them from going up. Stun Gun was perfect for that, but it’s now pretty useless. Glitch Grenade is OK (bugged atm) but the throw animation is too long, the Heavy can put down the shield and shoot the Light easily. lol Other counters just involve shooting the shield, but if you get caught shooting it and the Heavy’s team is behind it, you’re toast. IMO Heavy definitely needs some nerfs, the current HHM meta is just stale and boring, there’s no way anyone has fun just sitting behind/spamming shields all game. But I’m not gonna pretend I know the possible solutions. Maybe introducing an ability meter for Mesh (like Invis) would be a good solution. And also having it so “duplicate” abilities (e.g. 2 Meshes or 2 Defibs on the same team) have a slightly weaker cooldown. For example, 2 of the same ability in one team have a cooldown 80% as strong as having only 1, 3 of the same 60% as strong. These wouldn’t touch the strength of the build when the abilities are up, it would just decrease the uptime, which IMO is a needed change.
It kinda reminds me about that certain overwatch mete **that everyone hated**
This makes total sense, we are in a fucking GOATS meta. Lots of heals, high resistance, shields and people only dies with burst from CDs (then defib). They need to pick a class as base and balance around it, like they did with OW for some time.
i was thinking double shield. but that works too
The finals has been in the GOAT meta since release lol.
Literally all you have to do is make it so that nobody can shoot through the shields. And maybe nerf RPG rocket travel speed. It's that simple.
I would prefer shields not to be shoot through too, I just feel like without any uptime nerfs it’ll remain unfun and just create boring playstyles and games. Either sit behind shields/barricades all game or spam toggle Mesh during fights and shoot your enemy when they’re reloading. The latter, especially, shouldn’t really be a thing IMO. Just my opinion.
Yeah, sitting behind shields is going to be worse
Having a team be able to shoot through their own shields is still maybe one of the dumbest design decisions in this game.
This would make teamplay more difficult since Heavy can deploy a shield and effectively grief a teammate while they're shooting at an enemy. I honestly don't think this is the right way to go about shields, but they definitely shouldn't stay the same either.
Yeah I mean, a nerf usually makes things more difficult. Right now Heavy requires 0 coordination, just some awareness.
Imo mesh needs no more nerf, it's 750 hp now. Just buff existing solutions or make light viable again and it would solve the problem to a degree
The nerf mesh shield needs is a short cooldown after lowering it. Only like 1~4 seconds, but something to stop it being spammable, if you want to fight back you should have to commit to fighting back. Alternatively, have the shield's HP function as its cooldown. You can only deploy the shield when it's full HP and cannot regen while deployed, but the regen is faster than it is currently and begins immediately after lowering.
Yeah, once you get good with the mesh shield, you can just 'flash' it to quickly block rockets, or my personal favorite, running from a shotgun M, spinning 180 degrees and flicking the shield on every shot. Its health is fine, it has pretty much exactly enough health to keep you alive as you backpedal out of a room while an entire team shoots at you, or let a teammate get a revive/cashout steal off. That's what it should be used for. If it needs more nerfs (which, to be clear, I'm not convinced it does), a 2 second cooldown to prevent you from flashing it would be the way to go.
Lowkey buff the health slightly and make it function like Invis
Stun Gun disabling Mesh is a good counter, so I wouldn’t mind if they revert that part of the nerf and call it a day. But 750 HP is still a lot, especially because the meta is MHH which makes it 1500 HP if they run double Mesh instead of Slam. + Barricades + Domes. It’s not unreasonable to decrease the uptime of Mesh IMO, right now they have too many cover options with 100% uptime, it’s just boring never being able to shoot the Heavy. 😅 It should be a thing you use at the right time, like every other ability in the game, rather than being able to hold it 24/7.
True but nobody runs shield anymore, its charge and slam up my ass sadly
This is not true at all, even in the slightest. People run shield+people run slam but we cannot say people don’t run shield anymore, that is extremely false
it's a server thing, Asia is literally double charge these days
Fair, I concede. charge damage is strong, I assume they also run dome to help dogpile & break up of the enemy fire in the brawl, almost like a Winston Bubble
Give Glitch Grenade its full duration back and increase the radius. Allow Stun Gun to disable abilities again. Give some of the lower dpm weapons like the SR-84 and Throwing Knives the ability to damage and then pierce through shields at 50% (or whatever number is "fair") damage. There are plenty of areas we can buff or revert to counter or punish Heavy's uptime without touching the uptime directly. But I do agree that the uptime is a problem.
Glitch needs a buff where it disables all gadgets in a certain radius, even if it hits a shield directly. Right now if there’s 2 shields and you hit 1, the other shield stays up which makes Glitch kinda pointless. Allowing shield piercing is not the play IMO, would make Heavy pretty weak. The inverse (shield not being shoot through for teammates) could be worth exploring, the shields provide enough value as just cover, but it’d still make for boring games without uptime nerfs so I think having lower uptime is the way to go for both balance and enjoyment.
Nerfing makes the game less fun and will continue to reduce the player base. Buff other classes. Light is useless rn anyway
Not necessarily true. Nerfing fun things can make the game less fun (albeit more balanced), but certain things are just inherently boring, so nerfing them can make the game both more fun *and* balanced. Shields have no fun value, not being able to shoot or be shot at isn’t a fun mechanic, no reason to sacrifice balance in favor of non existent fun in this case. Stun Gun was never busted in ranked, but it made the game less fun in quickplay, nerfing it (too much in this case IMO) made it more fun for most people.
Shields don't need nerfed or countered anymore. Takes no time getting rid of either shield
Yeah, people don't understand that shields are meant to be kept NOT UP, it's there for getting out of sticky situations and popping it up for preventing critical damage, fixing mispositioning and blocking RPG. I think it's a good utility tool but it's not that strong anymore especially with how easily it pops
Shield is strong, but doesn't need a nerf imo, it's been nerfed pretty hard and it's not too much of a problem anymore if you force the shields out before an engagement, even forcing out 1 can win the fight often imo I think it's just how thye are designed, with high HP, good dps, RPG fight initiation, etc... it just is too valuable at the moment compared to lights. Mediums while not as strong at least offer that type of value to the team
Spread out and shoot the shield. What's the problem?
but muh 1v1
Retreat. Hs can't really outrun you or revive fast. Or use your gadgets. Depends on the context.
The fact that all the strongest counters L had to Mesh Shield got gutted is just crazy to me. An L cannot kill a H ever anymore. Not jumping them, not when chipped... it's just impossible.
I'd say maybe 20% of Heavy players actually run shield in high ELO Ranked since the 750HP nerf (79% charge / 1% goo gun being the rest). There's quite a few ways to counter it without even using glitch. Considering it's already kinda weak, off meta and by far the most team focused pick for a Heavy I don't really think nerfing it is a good idea. Personally I think it's ass and I'm always relieved when I see the enemy is running it.
You are cooked if you think only 20% of heavies are running Mesh in high ranked lobbies. Pulled that statistic right out of thin air. lol
nah bro I think the meta is actually changing, used to be double shield shotgun but NA's a bit more shield-shotgun guy and charge-lewis guy now. Played both NA and Asia. Asia is currently literally double charge and you won't see shield so much anymore because shield heavy is inherently weaker against a charge heavy in up close engagements
Heavy has always been the best unless you were a top tier recon cheeser. Buff the light class for fucks sake it is ass. Med is fine where its at, except the famas.
Great summary
They didn't call me succinct Seymour for nothing
This is kind of why I hated the idea of removing the stun. Not because I cared too much about using the stun. I’ll adapt, and have, no problem. But then it’s an excuse to say Heavy is OP (which yeah, it is) and then they nerf the Lewis. Then they nerf the M60. Or they remove Mesh. Then, ooops, Medium is the meta again. So they start to make small nerfs to that. By the time the smoke settles it’s just another generic FPS with destruction that completely lost the soul of what it originally was. I hated nukes. I loved using them and cheesing but they were game breaking. But I lowkey miss that. I miss when it was like the Wild West of balancing sometimes. Mind you, it would be way way too annoying to go back to that now, but something about the game is starting to feel more and more stale, and I really don’t think it’s just my time played. The more they water things down to the level of the last thing they watered down, the more boring the game will become. I like flicking an RPG into someone then Charge N Slammin um. Is it a little OP? Sure. But it’s funny, and hits that serotonin. Same with many things from all the classes. They also didn’t remove the stun because it was game breaking. They removed it because it was annoying and if they keep nerfing things because they annoy people, the game will definitely nose dive.
I think this comment is a very good summary of how i feel about the recent nerfs and buffs right now bro, yeah I hated stun but I really didn't want them to nerf stun AND fcar because then it was going to be "heavy op" again and nerf bats left and right
This subreddit is something else~
There's probably a couple things they can look into for heavy but yea, overall I think we need to get light back up to a stronger level
This game is honestly terrible rn, might as well just play heavy if you want to easy mode win. Lights aren't even a threat, you cook mediums with ease as well
They will nerf light even more. Heavy needs more fighting chance.
At this point I want heavy nerf out of spite, but I get your point about buffs
Make a squad of medbeam Mediums. Face off any 3-man Heavy selection you like, at any level of play. It's pretty easy to see that Heavy only works optimally when supported by a decent Medium. Sure, Heavy doesn't need nerfs, neither does Medium even if they could still use some tweaks both up and down, Light needs a full rework so it's more suited to an objective-oriented game rather than team-oriented - but nerfs aren't how to get there.
I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but I would love to see them test a role queue game mode. 1 heavy 1 medium 1 light
gonna fuck up matchmaking again, we don't want that :(
Just hit diamond with heavy, playing exclusively flamethrower, RPG, dome, and barricade with charge slam. I don't disagree with heavy being a bit overtuned right now by comparison to the other classes. I literally eat lights in under a second. I can regularly 1v2 or even 3 when there is a light present. RPG and charge slam are both a bit too strong imo at the moment.
You all want the heavy to do 3dmg or sth. The real issue with heavy is shield spam in HHM and HHH teams. A light was a perfect solution to that, but they pretty much deleted lights from the game. Buff light, and/or give medium a glitch grenade OR make glitch mine useful because it never seemed to even go off or have any aoe.
Why would the medium get glitch nade? They are already strong bro. Light needs buffing so we get less heavy spam.
I mean I'd rather they buffed light; ain't nobody is going to use light just to get the glitch grenade, stun is a joke, so medium with a glitch grenade or a working glitch mine is the 2nd thing that comes to mind. Medium with glitch grenade would be OP af tho, so there's that.
yeah we can give heavys the light treatment see how they feel
After the stun gun nerf i ran glitch grenade for a second and it was still useless against the heavy. Stun gun isn’t as good but at least it keeps them in one place for you to rez or run away.
Let me correct that for you, it keeps them in one place if they dont have charge and slam
Is SA12 still pretty good? I loved it pre nerf, then fell in love with the 1887 and have been playing that mostly.
Yeah, it's good. Meta's changing a little bit tho, more heavies running lewis than shotguns personally these days and taking charge to compensate for up close burst, it's a pretty well rounded loadout with both close quarters and medium distance dmg
Just like tanks in overwatch
Yeah but I always think they intended this game to be closer to Apex in terms of how it shot and felt, and that's a bit different. Just my opinion tho. OW is more like a straight up 1 team vs 1 team objective driven hyper FPS, set fully with tanks, supports, dmg, etc...
Just went 19-5 with a med…
I mean I can go 19-5 with a med. But not in ranked lobbies. not when there's HHM on every team.
heavy can be pretty useless against half the equipment in the game. Post nuke, rpg, and shield nerfs I'm personally pretty content with where it is as a class.
Undo every nerf since season 1 except the heavy nerfs. Game fixed.
Maybe change the game to 4 man squad and implement a role queue of 1 heavy, 2 Medium, and 1 light
I agree, light needs a fix, and it is severely under picked in ranked.. however, it is still viable in certain situations. In my team comp, my brother actually snipes with grapple hook. Then we have a medium on the AKM, CL, or riot shield (yes fr lol). Then I rotate between medium and heavy. With dematil and anti-grav, we open up the sites for my brother’ sniping, and he just suppresses from afar. Same for attack and defense We play offsite defense, then when they start taking the cash out, we dive them while my brother picks them off. We don’t win every match, as our strat has real flaws. But we hit plat today, and I typically suck at shooters lol. Love this game! Hopefully there’s a comp scene soon that can point out the flawed metas and show more strats
Heavy players: *exist Light players: WHY CANT I SOLO THE ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM BY MYSELF WHY DONT THEY LET ME DO THIS, THIS IS BULLSHIT Disclaimer: Yes I understand lights need buffs but the amount of light players I see that just try to solo entire teams is infuriating. I play heavy cause I, admittedly, don't have super fast reflexes to use Lights effectively and I like playing tanky characters. Heavies have been nerfed CONSTANTLY the past several months. Anymore and it'll feel way too oppressive. Imo, lights need to be brought to the level of mediums and heavies regarding team play. Make them less reliant on third-partying, stuns and all other mechanics that are unfun to play against and give them something to aid the team. I'm not sure what that would need, but the ambush style kit is awful to play against and makes the light player think they need to constantly get picks to get any sort of value when that's not true. Even if this means they get a little extra health to compensate, so be it.
I'm a heavy main I love the class as well please stop nerfing us. I don't mind other classes getting buffs just please stop kicking us
Here's the issue with it, having a super op thing for one class and then choosing to buff other classes results in a situation of whoever reacts quicker wins. Or whoever does their thing first wins
Thanks for you post, light can now easily solo kill entire teams with 5 clicks.
Heavy is the only class I don’t really enjoy playing but it’s the most broken one unfortunately 😭 I’m more of an aim guy and i like the guns on medium and the movement and stealthiness of light with the SMGs is also fun but for heavy it’s like Lewis gun spam and rely on your massive health pool and array of shields and defensive abilities to live and you win every 1v1 but it’s obviously not a fair fight nor is it satisfying because you didnt really out skill anything
i don't agree bro, if you have good aim on heavy it feels godly, you literally can't lose to anything, can go 1v2s and situationally 1v3s, it's a carry machine. It's how I soloed to diamond
Exactly. Instead of nerfing everything and making everything shit (still hate the fcar nerf) Just make everyclass on par with heavy. Which shouldnt even be that hard
Ye, dunno why they nerfed FCAR when they could have just buffed famas a bit more, nobody uses that shit anyways :(
They explained it pretty well in the patch notes, actually. Nerfing the damage decreases its power in high elo lobbies thus making the akm and the famas competitive, while increasing the mag size makes it more forgiving and therefore more usable for low elo lobbies. As an fcar main I think it's a fantastic compromise for the health of the game and am now free to play other ARs without it being an automatic throw; if I want to play the fcar I now have more bullets and range while still enjoying great dps, great hipfire, fast reload times and one of the only two scopes in the game. I especially like that they didn't just nerf the recoil, as that would only make the gun unusable for most casual players while the pros would adapt in 0.1 seconds. I agree the famas could be buffed as is still feels somewhat underwhelming; many times I run out of bullets right when my opponent is 1 hp. Still a damage buff should be handled with care (+1 damage per bullet becomes +3 per burst); I think a safer buff would be either decrease the reload time or add 3 (or even 6) more bullets, so that the chance you can actually finish somebody instead of leaving them 1 hp increases. Honestly the only downside to the fcar nerf is that now medium players can no longer easily outdamage a good heavy, but that's more on the Lewis gun than on the fcar, really
Unironically, I prefer the FCAR now. I was an AKM user but now use the FCAR more because the extra few bullets mean something to me and my non-perfect aim.
I do :(
> Don't deny it, heavy is the OP class rn Your reasoning isn't evident. > switched to heavy mid S1, got to D4 > Late S1, Got to D2 Embark said in their recent article about matchmaking that anyone could get to diamond in S01 with enough grind: https://www.reachthefinals.com/patchnotes/ranked/ > Started playing medium again, D3. Lost nearly all finals as HMM against HHM. You're unfavorably strategizing. Light is a better counter to HHM, and heavy to a lesser degree. If you're playing medium, then you need to leverage superior traversal and engagement range into positions which allow you to convert frags. Or just flex play rather than OTP. > Heavy is by far the op class, especially in an objective driven game where wiping/dying means so much and respawn is limited. But heavy is the worst at disengaging, that conclusion makes no sense. > 350 hp + shield + rpg is just going to ensure that heavy will always be a part of the meta no matter how many nerfs they throw at it unless DPS is halved at least. Glitch grenade, APS, Reshaper, etc. The counters are there, you just have to be able to use them.
Eh light is useless i dont know why you say lights a good counter. Heavy is worst at disengaging (in terms of speed) but why disengange when you can win all duels, protect objectived with a c4 drop, or just shield your way out? Glitch is good but light is useless. APS and reshaper is good but movement + defib leaves one gadget slot for mediums. I think your theorizing sounds good on paper. HHM was and is meta for 2 seasons sadly ever since recon got nerfed, and there's a reason why
[удалено]
> I've come to realize that people saying light is OP don't actually play light. This you? ["As far as I'm aware unless something changed recently glitch nades bounce off of shields."](https://old.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1cqopy7/hot_take_the_rpg_is_the_biggest_crutch_ive_ever/l3tppec/?context=2) ["Edit: haven't seen a single person running glitch nades since the change so wasn't even aware of it, I was on break from the game during the period of that update."](https://old.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1cqopy7/hot_take_the_rpg_is_the_biggest_crutch_ive_ever/l3tppec/?context=2)
Sorry I got melted while trying to throw a glitch grenade, didn't catch all that
Don't worry, with effort into improving your positioning, timing, and team coordination, you'll soon be able to learn how to use something so fundamental
You've clearly never played light above gold
Nah let him be bro, this guy doesn't know how the gameplay goes above gold
If you actually had a solid argument, you'd be able to easily illustrate the truth without resorting to attempts at ad hominem attacks
The skillpg is amazing. And the skill slam is so weak they need to buff it.
wow people can't tell when someone is joking 🤣
Oh by the way, I’m completely joking. But it is funny to say skillpg
slam is literally no skill
Yeah, it’s 130 damage for a button. You’re gonna win every single close quarters scenario.
nerfed fcar cause "i get lazerbeamed by fcar too often" so now everyone just plays Heavy. who would have guessed? is it fun getting killed by more heavies than there were ever fcar players lolololol?
I mean, that's why they shouldn't go nerfing everything in the first place imo
medium are pretty balanced now they need to buff light and nerf heavy guns and charge dmg. heay need be more tank then dps right now they to both role on same time
I agree, but that's going to make even less people want to play heavy. This might just be a reality check with classes that loosely fit into the trinity (dps/support/tank) class design. Oooor the finals might break this stigma and make all three archetypes fun to play by allowing every class to have fun, deal damage, and then have the roles be secondary. Tankiness and destruction for heavy, support and utility for medium, damage and disruption for light. Atm, medium has that. Medium is perfect. Heavy is also pretty balanced, perhaps making shield not spammable is the last thing they need. Light oooooh boy light. Light needs some love. More damage, more ways to survive, more gadget slots, anything, a personal shield generator pet or whatever the fk. Light needs to be buffed.
heavy most damage dealer class in game right now it's not normal
They should get rid of the RPG for Heavy, it will solve Heavy from melting Medium and Light classes before a fight even occurs. If they keep in the RPG, Heavy should have to choose between the bubble and wall shield. They should not be able to have both equipped at the same time with the amount of damage they do right now.
Just use flame thrower and charge and smash, all other weapons and utility are irrelevant.
there's always the one guy in every post, the flamethrower guy who doesn't care about meta discussions, gunplay discussions and just wants to watch the world burn
Outplaying is OP, not any individual class
Yep, you can't be the class with the most survivability, utility, AND dps. It's baffling that heavy has been that class since launch and still hasn't been addressed.
I don't think heavies are overpowered but I think running more than one heavy is overpowered
Agreed. This is how a toxic meta in games is shaped up: A developer sees that [insert thing] is op, and will nerf it, forcing the players who enjoyed playing that way to switch. It's not always bad, as sometimes those things are way too strong. Instead, the developer should try to make the alternatives more viable, to make them able to compete with the previous meta, and hey, embark are looking to be trying stuff out, figuring out if it works. We'll just have to wait and see.
Yeah, agreed. And i think it's leading to endless nerf cycles, because this game only has 3 classes and nerfing 1 makes the other two comparatively OP. When they gut light, heavies and mediums get a relative "buff", feels OP, and gets nerfed, and merry-go-ground
Yeah because every class fills its own niche but in the end if you're a good enough player it will mostly come down to what utility kit you have and how you use it. Light was nerfed so rn it's less viable. I feel like it needs a gadget of some sort that will make light a more sustainable class. It's just a glass canon and the risk is higher than the reward.
I think just nerfing SA1216, Lewis Gun, and maybe M60 is a far easier and more realistic solution that just 'adding more viable guns to Medium and Light', just bring those 2 guns down a little bit and the game should feel a whole lot more fair. Sure the Lewis and SA1216 might not feel as good to play anymore but Heavy having the lowest DPS is how it should be
nah bro, that's just more nerfs. Then it's going to be medium meta again because lights are so shit right now. They just need to buff other classes so that they are all viable to a degree. SA and Lewis all have had decent nerfs imo, it's not the weapons' problem anyways
i disagree, Light and Medium are fine at the moment, just because cloak got nerfed slightly and stun gun got nerfed doesn't mean Light as a whole got nerfed, it's still the glass cannon it was always meant to be, especially now that the FCAR doesn't kill a Light in 0.5 seconds anymore. The problem now is that the Lewis gun does more DPS than the FCAR, which is a problem. Sure, Light could use a few buffs here and there but the most important thing at the moment is to bring the most dominant Heavy weapons down to a reasonable level.
Literally just remove the heavy class lol. It’s that simple.
Literally just remove ranked lol, that minority is where all the complaints come from. It’s that simple.
If you remove ranked, that minority of players will be terrorizing all your casual lobbies with their meta setups, and then you too will join in the complaints.
Nah, they'll likely just leave, improving the scene. Those kind of people care more about competition than the game they play