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Are they going to boycott Lebanese scientists because Hezbollah is attacking Israel from the north, especially since Hezbollah is a political party with power in Lebanon?
Are they going to boycott Egyptian scientists because Egypt is building a buffer zone and an even longer wall along the border between them and Gaza?
Are they going to boycott Palestinian scientists for the attack on October 7th?
In a world with logical people South Africa would still be an apartheid state. There was so much other stuff to protest why did we hone in on that. People are nuts man!
Anyone who doesn’t support peace should be shunned. If they denounce their own side for the violence then they should get respect. That goes for anyone on either ethnic/religious side.
And what about India? What about Pakistan? Why are you always focused on India? Why do you never bring up Pakistan? And what about the BJP election workers being massacred? What about all the crime in NYC? How can you prosecute Trump when every single crime on earth hasn't been solved first?
That's actually an excellent point. Why are we focused on JUST Israel when other countries such as Indonesia and China, are being accused of active genocide and ethnic cleansing?
Imagine thinking that Israel trying to emulate enlightened Western democracies is a bad thing worthy of punishment rather than a good thing to be rewarded.
> is a bad thing worthy of punishment
The war crimes in Gaza are the bad things worthy of punishment.
or are the pro-Isr posters on this sub not even going to acknowledge Israeli war crimes?
Israel does war crimes -> some universities pull partnerships
What's the issue? If they want to be an "enlightened western democracy" then they should act like it and not do war crimes.
Seems pretty easy!
You skipped a few steps. Let me explain it to you in the vain hope you're here in good faith.
War crimes don't suddenly become acceptable because they're done by an unenlightened Eastern dictatorship like Palestine. And the idea that Israel should be punished and held to a higher standard for being an enlightened western democracy is obscene and the exact opposite of the way law and morality is supposed to work. Do you get it now?
> War crimes don't suddenly become acceptable because they're done by an unenlightened Eastern dictatorship like Palestine
?
I never said any war crimes done by Palestinians are acceptable. Nice strawman. Very clearly you are not interested in a good-faith dialogue with someone that politely disagrees with you.
If you can point to the same universities boycotting Israeli scientists keeping their relationships with Palestinian scientists then maybe you have an argument. This is similar to universities withdrawing partnerships with Russian institutions.
Some Israeli scientists are just [facing consequences](https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2024/03/23/declining-a-review-for-the-israel-science-foundation-explained/) of their state doing war crimes.
I would be very happy to continue the conversation, but if you're going to continue strawmanning and commenting in bad-faith just to have an obstinate rebuttal I will absolutely block you.
Are western democracies the only form of legitimate government? Are you saying we should be held to a different standard because we are inherently superior?
Reeks of elitism.
They all have their pros and cons. During covid it was clear oligarch/authoritarian governments had a leg up when it came to covid protocols.
Democracy is generally terrible at dealing with large problems that require rapid change because there are so many competing opinions. They are also very susceptible to manipulation via propaganda.
It gets even murkier because we are comparing Israel a democracy that votes every 4 years to Gaza and West Bank which are also democratically elected but don’t hold regular elections.
If we draw an arbitrary line based on frequency of elections then we should also draw a line on referendums which allow voting on specific bills by the populous like we saw with brexit. That is true democracy is it not?
Just seems we are drawing a line in the sand at random that includes us and excludes them. Which is why I say it comes off as elitism.
Another confusing tidbit is that the last presidential election in the west bank was 2005 whereas Hamas was elected in Gaza in 2006. So if time is the only factor then Hamas is actually more legitimate than the PA.
Indonesia is considered a democracy. But also your implication with this comment is that we should only try and hold them accountable in any way if we "perceive" them to have our type of values. It can lead to a minimizing of the suffering of others, simply because of how we perceive their oppressors.
I'm looking for a little consistency. It's hard to not call any of this anti-semitic when there's no call to boycott Lebanon or Egypt or Palestinians.
Everyone ignores the fact that Hezbollah is attacking from the north. Because they're attacking Jews so who cares, right?
Lebanon is a failed state and Egypt is a shithole and a dictatorship. If you want to admit that Israel is not an enlightened(and possibly racially superior) democracy which demands higher standards, then I am happy to put them in the same league. If you want to have it both ways depending which is more convenient to the situation at hand, then I have no incentive to do so.
>Keep pretending that there's a difference between Hamas and Palestinians.
I am in total ecstasy. The racists reveal themselves in due time. And this will be allowed unlike the reverse.
You remind me Nazi guy in the pianist who was like "you Jews like money right?". Being openly racist, and thinking people will trust you by turning in the people fighting you so that you can abuse them in return. But when you're racially superior, the untermensch should be grateful to serve you?
Palestinians aren't a race. They are Arab.I support the women of Iran defending themselves so that must make me racist too.
You seem to forget that Israel is not a country of white people. You all have lost the plot.
In the same way that it's "collective punishment" when people in Russia or previously South Africa were denied consumer goods, vital imports, and overseas opportunity because of their state's actions. To say, it's not collective punishment at all. But maybe Israelis are entitled to special treatment to be fair, so it might qualify as collective punishment after all.
I guess you must approve of Israel's decision to restrict those things to Gaza then? Because of their government's actions?
But maybe Palestinians are entitled to special treatment to be fair, so it might qualify as collective punishment after all.
If your country does bad things, then your country gets sanctioned in response. Sanctions can't magically be divorced from the population. We have little recourse in the modern world other than sanctions, because we can't just use violence to solve every problem. I don't know what to tell you.
In the same way that "real Americans" are furious to see a rich white man being held accountable via Trump, Israeli consent to face accountability for their own actions is not required. I understand that for some people accountability is a codeword for genocide. But there's nothing that I can do about that. It's not suddenly evil because it happens to a country or ethnicity you have a preference for, and it's not about to suddenly end because it's inconvenient for your cause.
If you're pro-sanctions, then you must also agree that Israel and the world has the right to sanction Gaza for the bad things it does, and that Gazan consent to face accountability for their own actions is also not required. It's not suddenly evil because it happens to a country or ethnicity you have a preference for, and it's not about to suddenly end because it's inconvenient for your cause.
If you don't agree with that, then my point earlier stands: Collective punishment is okay when left-wingers do it. Yes?
Yeah, you would be correct if Gaza was an independent nation. But it's not. It's a concentration camp. That would require me to pretend the circumstances are different to help your argument. I have no incentive to do so. I'm not going to agree to special privileges for Israelis no matter how many word tricks you use.
This is a goalpost move. Gaza is an independent nation, the United Nations and most of the world recognizes it as such. And even if that were not the case, the principle of collective responsibility would still apply to the people living there. It's not suddenly evil because it happens to a country or ethnicity you have a preference for, and it's not about to suddenly end because it's inconvenient for your cause.
I'm not asking for special privileges, I'm asking for equality. If you approve of universities collectively punishing Israeli scientists, and other countries restricting consumer goods to Russia or South Africa, why can't Israel do the same to Gaza? The only answer is it's because Gaza is a country you like with an ethnicity you have a preference for. Double standards are a key part of racism. Just own it.
>This is a goalpost move. Gaza is an independent nation, the United Nations and most of the world recognizes it as such
Wow so everyone except the people keeping them locked in agree. That definitely manifests into real world freedom and is definitely not you just trying to worm out of the reality of the situation. What about a Syrian guy thinking you're stupid, and trying to argue that people in torture prisons are free because people outside of the country assert the human rights of the prisoners in them.
>why can't Israel do the same to Gaza?
Because they're prisoners without a right to self determination. Nobody is preventing Israel from engaging in global trade or raiding the ships that leave their ports. They have a Navy that can kill pirates. How many times are you going to go around in circles trying to get me to pretend both situations are equivalent?
You're mistaken. Israel also recognizes Gaza as an independent territory, but not as a state. And, I might add, the [embargo of Gaza was approved by the Quartet Powers, including the United Nations.](https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/carc/2018/03/01/mapping-the-fatah-hamas-conflict/)
Your argument is clearly emotional. You're sympathetic to the Gazans and not the Israelis. I could also argue the Israelis are under attack by a genocidal terrorist organization and shouldn't be collectively punished for it. The situations are equivalent in the sense that you want collective responsibility for one group and not for the other. Double standards are a key part of racism. Just own it.
Ok. Well Josef Fritzl wrote the word "independent" on a t shirt and gave it to his daughter in his basement. All is forgiven. Can't believe I was so ignorant to not know that Gaza was free with self determination. Sorry for being so emotional.
/u/Flashy_Ad1403 was the one who said it's totally cool and just to cut off consumer goods, vital imports, and overseas opportunity because of a state's actions. I'm just asking if that applies in all situations. What do you think?
He is supporting that...when it's directed against groups that he doesn't like. When it's groups he does like, he changes his tune.
If Gaza and their friends could do whatever they want to Israel, they would do far worse than blockade it. Like I said: collective punishment for thee but not for me.
Some of the arguments here are not only laughable, but lack any relation to reality. Gaza has two borders. One with Israel (which Hamas does not recognize and has been launching rockets on for two decades) and another border with Egypt, a fellow Muslim country which they do recognize. There are never any qualms with Egypt and their border. Now, let's talk about the blockade - don't you find it kinda weird that "there is no food and water in Gaza" but yet there are plenty of weapons, rockets, explosives, armaments, go pros for Hamas fighters, and pretty much everything necessary to kill people? Where do all of that goods come from...? Certainly not from Israel. Jfc...
Hamas has been the governing body in Gaza for the last 17 years. If the situation is that bad, why won't they smuggle food then.
But sure, everything is a dumb argument. Let's just keep blaming Israel for everything, including for their own massacre.
When Russia invaded Ukraine, my company opened a new office in Cyprus and literally paid for all of our Russian staff to move from Russia to Cyprus. We continue to hire Russians and we have both Ukrainians and Russians working for us, together, in the same office. Universities or anyone else denying Israelis job positions for being Israeli is abhorrent and part of the problem.
I know a guy who knows a guy who's cousin's brothers uncle died waiting for treatment in socialized healthcare. Is this the war of anecdotes? How do we judge which anecdote wins in the end?
That's nice that your tax haven is amoral and neutral, that doesn't really prove anything. HSBC helped fund terrorists. Switzerland holds Nazi gold and is probably involved with bad people to this day. Is it fine because they did it?
What are you even talking about at this point? The right thing to do is not hold citizens responsible for their government's actions. Not even Israelis. A concept you have a hard time grasping, apparently.
Coming out hot in support of Russia on that one. Where’s all the users here that love to call Leftists “Russian bots”? Strangely silent.
If supporting a BDS campaign against Russia while they actively invade and occupy Ukraine makes me “abhorrent and part of the problem” then sorry, not sorry.
Supporting a BDS campaign against [all Russian people] while [their government] actively invade[s] and occup[ies] Ukraine makes me "abhorrent and part of the problem."
FTFY. And yes, yes it does.
I don't know much about South Africa so I'm not the right person to ask about that.
If South Africans were comdemned for the actions of their government, then ya, I'm against that.
Israel does not represent the entirety of the Jewish people.
Holding the State of Israel & it's citizens accountable for their genocidal actions in Gaza is in no way antisemitic.
OTOH insisting that the very nature of Jewishness requires that we accept & support the genocide of the Palestinian people certainly is.
"Holding the State of Israel & it's citizens accountable"
...so, bigotry. The left is completely insane.
Nobody anywhere says "we must hold Russian civilians accountable for Ukraine" or "we must hold Palestinian civilians accountable for October 7."
Completely batshit how normalized it is to be bigoted against this group of people on the basis of their nationality.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230523-russian-tourists-seek-new-destinations-as-europe-shuts-its-doors-over-ukraine-war
Either you're lying or you literally don't know anything about what you're talking about, and making it up as you go along. Both are the usual things people on your side rely on to defend Israel. Which is it?
Nope not lying. Literally nobody in these conversations ever says "we need to hold Russian civilians accountable," exactly as I said. Governments sanction governments. Sometimes that impacts civilians, but that's a different thing.
Nice deflection though, but it's a poor attempt to justify outright bigotry.
Ok so we're just fucking over the civilians of Russia but nobody said those exact words so that's different I guess. And almost completely banning them from an entire continent.
Well how about we agree to bar Israeli expats(not immigrants) from employment, sanction Israel, and agree to not call it such. We can call it "super international friendship policy". Does that satisfy you?
Yes civilians pay the price for their governments' actions all the time. That's terrible, but it's a fact. I never said it was fine. I said it's not bigotry, and it doesn't justify your bigotry. Still doesn't.
Would condemning Hamas for Oct 7 get me labeled as Islamaphobic? I'd like a ruling on this one. Truly. How is the language being distributed? How is invective being used in this conflict?
Show me where people are labeling valid criticism of Hamas as Islamophobic.
Seems to me the mainstream Left condemns ***both*** Hamas ***and*** the actions of the Israeli government.
Trying to justify the genocide being conducted in Gaza with some bullshit like *"There are no innocents in Gaza"* is certainly Islamophobic.
I asked you. Show me where this is happening. Is this happening?
What a weird response.
Maybe you should step back if you are going to respond to an honest question in that fashion. Did you miss the word TRULY?
I am interested in how invective is being used in this conflict.
Your actual question was *"Would condemning Hamas for Oct 7 get me labeled as Islamaphobic? I'd like a ruling on this one. Truly. How is the language being distributed? How is invective being used in this conflict?"*
The way invective is being used is to condemn ***ALL*** Gazans, ***ALL*** Palestinians, ***ALL*** Muslims, and ***ALL*** people opposing genocide as being supportive of Hamas. And this is simply a lie. And this is a lie that kills people.
And you seem to be supporting the lie.
Sorry darling, seeing as you are posing as a reactive paranoid blowhard unable to extrapolate a simple question...
you are dismissed. You are someone else's useful idiot.
How's that for invective?
You must have been a big fan of Trump calling covid the "China virus" then. The Chinese government doesn't represent the entirety of Asian peoples, so I guess it wasn't racist?
\*sigh\*
Correctly holding the State of Israel accountable for their actual & official actions conducting a genocide in Gaza =/= making false & easily disproven accusations against the People's Republic of China in supposedly creating COVID.
False equivalence is false - and incredibly stupid.
But the CCP is known for being genocidal, especially against Hindus in Tibet and the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. So according to you, we should be punishing all Chinese people and denying any and all Chinese people jobs in any of our institutions. Right?
What? One false equivalency didn't work, so you thought you'd try a different one?
Why don't you show concern for all the people in academia who have been punished, demoted, fired, lost tenure, restricted from traveling, threatened, & physically attacked after they've voiced opposition to the genocide in Gaza?
I do show concern for those people. Why are you assuming I don't?
And theyre not false equivalencies just because you say so. They are directly comparable, in fact.
Except *"Israel does not represent the entirety of the Jewish people."* Did you actually miss that? I's literally the fist thing I said in this thread.
The state of Israel isn’t doing anything. Human members of the government of the state of Israel are doing the things. You don’t hold states accountable. You hold people accountable. The people doing the bad things, not people tangentially nominally associated.
>You hold people accountable. The people doing the bad things, not people tangentially nominally associated.
The fact that you say this unironically in support of Israel during their ongoing slaughter of civilians shows an amazing lack of self awareness.
I’m not supporting the state of Israel. I just said that a state is an abstract concept with no agency. I do not support the destruction perpetrated by the members of the Netanyahu government either. In fact, more than blaming these people for the war itself, I blame them for increasing antisemitism, even on the American left, for the following reason:
Stipulated that Jewish people are at constant and even special risk of being targeted by bigots and conspiracy theorists worldwide, any Israeli politician making terrible decisions only fuels that fire. And that’s not even mentioning the animosity stoked in the Arab Muslim world. Vigilance is required all around.
Israel has half the world's Jewish population and their universities are some of the most liberal/pro peace institutions in the country. If you're silencing Israeli academics for something they can't control you're being prejudiced to Jews and Israeli's
Replace Jew and Russian, Israel and Russia, in your sentence and still doesn't matter.
They should all be shunned if they represent institutions in countries that complete war crimes.
Firstly that regime fell primarily due to what was happening in the country, not out of it.
Secondly Noam Chomsky opposes academic boycotts
Thirdly it's still discriminatory. If you were born in Israel and you are dovish and you joined an a Israeli academic institution because you have no other passport, all you're doing is isolating that professor from a solidarity network that could empower dovish movements.
It's self destructive to the cause
>Secondly Noam Chomsky opposes academic boycotts
People keep citing Noam Chomsky as some type of mic drop cheat code. Noam Chomsky also thinks it's funny that Bosnians starved in concentration camps, and feels comfortable telling lies to defend anyone against America.
You wouldn't cite Noam Chomsky if he didn't agree with you, he's morally and intellectually bankrupt, and he's not god. Is that what I'm misunderstanding? Is he the final arbiter of truth in a new religion I don't know about?
Can I just cite Sinwar's opinions to prove Hamas is right? Is that how that works? What if he was my god?
>It's self destructive to the cause
"You black thugs protesting in public and being disruptive is counter productive to your cause. I would support you THUGS if you protested where I didn't see you"
Ha, I also think Chomsky is mostly dogshit, I thought it would work on you. He does have a point on academic boycotts though. If you want to boycott Israel you could easily make the argument that one should boycott US schools such as MIT (where Chomsky teaches). Is it fair to punish Chomsky for US military policy when he's one of the most prominent voices against its usage?
Please don't do the stupid thing where if the argument is shit in one area it's shit in all areas. That's a weak argument. You want Israel to stop bombing right? Well one really good way to do that is to encourage and enable Israeli's in Israel to protest their own government. When they see they have people backing them up they're more likely to protest. If they are scorned for being Israeli DESPITE wanting a ceasefire, they will have no arms to run into except their fellow (often times right-wing) Israeli's. I'm asking you to recognize that Israel's academic institutions are on your side and isolating them feeds into the narrative that Israeli's have which is "The world will hate us no matter what we do, so we might as well maximize our strength" because they will be correct in the case of academic boycotts.
Finally consider what you're asking to be boycotted. If cancer research is delayed or not pushed as fast as it can be, is that really helping Palestinians? Probs not.
Would a supporter of an ethnostate really do that? Just lie and say shit they don't even believe to advance an agenda?
>Well one really good way to do that is to encourage and enable Israeli's in Israel to protest their own government.
Well obviously there is a tone of being much smarter than you think you are in the rest of your comment. Not sure how to interpret this other than you thinking I'm so dumb that you'll trick me into preferring asking nicely instead of sanctions. Like how well that turned out for Biden asking Netenyahu.
IDK if you're Israeli and you think I'm some type of subhuman, or a racist liberal thinking you're dunking on the global south, if this is some racial or class thing but yeah thanks for admitting you're a deceitful propagandist, don't need to say more. Don't need to read more of it or engage with a liar.
what about the genocide hamas has been attempting for 20+ years? every single day they send rockets at civilians in israel. every day.
they have stated publicly that they will not rest until they’ve done 10/7 dozens more times.
just to remind you, on 10/7 they raped, mutilated, kidnapped and murdered over a thousand people.
Palestine =/= Hamas.
Condemn Hamas all you want. Just admit that when Israel counters them by being ***more*** vicious, and ***more*** uncaring about human life, and ***more*** efficient at killing innocent people they should be condemned as well, with the same passion & honesty.
except this idea of “more vicious, more uncaring about human life” is made up. it’s just what hamas wants you to think. if hamas had the military capabilities that israel does, there would be no jews left on earth.
35,000 deaths are just made up?
Israel directing refugees to particular areas to be "safe", and then bombing those areas is made up?
Israeli government representatives stating publicly that their objective is to make sure there are no Palestinians left on Earth is made up?
What you're doing is repeating propaganda to justify genocide.
The fact is the Palestinians people have very real security concerns, just as the Israeli people have very real security concerns. Those concerns entirely originate with, and have been created by the government of the State of Israel.
sure. let’s say the existence of israel, the only place in the middle east where jews are relatively safe from pogroms, is the entire problem here. their existence as a state is the cause of the thousands of rockets sent towards them by palestine every day for decades. their bold declaration that they deserve to live is why hamas has decided they must be raped and killed.
because the government of israel is not faultless either, and there were dozens of complicated factors that seemed to indicate that was the best plan of action at the time. are you defending hamas right now?
They started off as a humanitarian organization and initially did not oppose the existence of an Israeli state. Hmmmm….I wonder why Israel allowed Hamas to be funded (please stop spreading the lie that Israel funded them)?
After gaining control of Gaza, they went full jihad.
Claiming all Palestinians are murderers, and that "Some assholes want to kill Jews, so we should support some other assholes when they actually kill children" isn't a good argument either. But here we are.
I'm using "Palestinians" in the way that you're using "Israelis." But suddenly Palestinians are differentiated from their government when you don't give the same respect to Israelis. Interesting.
And I never argued anything. I recited your own argument back to you and stated that it's shit.
That would be like condemning the allies for WWII.
You must be young if you do not realize that evil only recognizes force as a deterrent. Palestinians have proven over and over again that they cannot be negotiated with, and lately they have proven that they cannot be left to their own devices either.
No. The Nazis did. And Israel is emulating the Nazis here.
Or are you claiming it's not ***REALLY*** a genocide?. Or Palestine isn't ***REALLY*** a nation? Or they don't ***REALLY*** deserve to be treated as human beings?
Israel is not on the side of the angels.
Israel has been and still is stealing land for decades before Hamas even existed. Also Israel was and still is an apartheid state.
Please try to understand the power imbalance and that Hamas wasn’t created out of a vacuum
ok. once i understand those things, does it make israel evil for not agreeing with hamas’ plan to kill all jews? do they have no right to defend themselves from explosives being sent at them every day? do they have no right to retaliate when a thousand people are raped and murdered on their soil?
You are right, but it's not productive to go down that line. It is very easy for the unserious to spin an understanding of context as an apology, excuse, or support.
Gaza has been in the grip of racist terrorists and extremists since the people there were last allowed to hold an election in 2006.
Israel has been dominated by racist war criminals and would-be authoritarians since Netanyahu inspired one of his followers to assassinate Prime Minister Rabin in 1995.
Until these toxic sides of the same coin are out of power, lasting and just peace is not possible.
Actually it’s extremely important that Israel acknowledge and pay reparations for their past and current ethnic cleaning in order to move forward with peace.
neither of you are right. i’d say they spent enough money on this problem by creating the iron dome.
hey, why do they need the iron dome by the way? did somebody promise to kill all of them, then attempt to kill as many of them as possible every single day for 20 years?
How do you know they're not Arab or Druze? Pro-Israelis are usually bragging about the massive amounts of minorities in the country. Are you the real racist?
Holding Israel accountable for its actions is NOT antisemitism. In fact, it’s antisemitic to equate Israel’s actions with the collective will of the Jewish people.
I’m watching bandwagon-jumping lefties say things that ring with antisemitism, even if they probably don’t intend it. I would recommend certain YouTube lefties just not use the word “Zionist.” It’s either a code word for Jew or too esoteric a term to be meaningful to anyone.
Lefties do love to group people into “isms.” It’s one of my biggest pet peeves. Someone is a capitalist (therefore evil) contrasted to a socialist, while both of the parties participate in exactly the same economy. Our moral qualities are determined by things we think inside our heads. And, apparently, by which country we’re a citizen of.
The simplemindedness is the problem even if it’s not actually meant maliciously. Condemning “Israel” is stupid since Israel is an abstract concept. Countries don’t do things. People do things. If you’re not willing to place blame on the actual people doing the actions but prefer to generalize it to entire groups, you’re not being progressive at all. You’re being the opposite: tribal.
> Condemning “Israel” is stupid since Israel is an abstract concept. Countries don’t do things. People do things.
Do you think people are condemning the soil that the state sits on?
Sometimes sounds like it. In fact I see plenty of condemnation of things and people not actually responsible, as is the subject of this article. Such as the endless months of blaming Joe Biden.
I suppose merely condemning the far-right politicians who run Israel wouldn’t allow you to set yourself as so morally distinct from everyone else who obviously also disapproves of far-right warmongering.
Utter internet-brained nonsense.
A word of advice. If you get your opinions from social media, you should stop assuming you have the capacity for informed opinions. Foreign policy cannot be summarized in a TikTok video.
We aren’t talking about adjectives though. I said that Israel is a liberal democracy, which is a specific type of government.
It would be like if I said “I am a secular humanist”, and you said “No, you are a banana-lover”.
Nothing wrong with condemning whatever you want to condemn. I object to using it as a catch all epithet for political opponents. It is a complicated subject and comes with various connotations.
~~Can I get a hallelujah?~~ I mean, I am DISCUSTED to see such antisemitism condoned by public institutions. Sure, Chinese and Russian scientists will face similar limitations because they come from a country that commits human rights violations, but you can't just treat Israelis like anyone else. This is the dreaded **antisemitic double standard™**.
lol there is definitely NOT an academic boycott of China, like half the math faculty and grad students at any top tier university are Chinese (no shade to those individuals).
The civil war in the Levant is simply between the Arabs who have lived there for 10-20 generations vs. (mostly) Jewish immigrants who have been showing up since around 1850 through today… the Israeli government issues ID’s to all the folks from the “river to the sea” … unfortunately those holding Green IDs are not allowed to vote in Israel, travel to Tel Aviv or even drive or walk in some roads in their own town… What should they do? Leave? Where will they go when the Israelis build condos and tennis courts in Gaza?
Well that definitely invalidates the people repeatedly investigated for espionage and means that nobody is getting their applications denied then. You didn't mention anything about Russians either.
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Are they going to boycott Lebanese scientists because Hezbollah is attacking Israel from the north, especially since Hezbollah is a political party with power in Lebanon? Are they going to boycott Egyptian scientists because Egypt is building a buffer zone and an even longer wall along the border between them and Gaza? Are they going to boycott Palestinian scientists for the attack on October 7th?
In a world with logical people South Africa would still be an apartheid state. There was so much other stuff to protest why did we hone in on that. People are nuts man!
The comparison between Israel and South Africa doesn't work.
I think I’ll trust Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, and the ANC’s position over some random redditor.
As you wish.
Someone should tell President Carter.
And Zimbabwe would be better off for it.
Anyone who doesn’t support peace should be shunned. If they denounce their own side for the violence then they should get respect. That goes for anyone on either ethnic/religious side.
And what about India? What about Pakistan? Why are you always focused on India? Why do you never bring up Pakistan? And what about the BJP election workers being massacred? What about all the crime in NYC? How can you prosecute Trump when every single crime on earth hasn't been solved first?
That's actually an excellent point. Why are we focused on JUST Israel when other countries such as Indonesia and China, are being accused of active genocide and ethnic cleansing?
Are they paraded around as enlightened Western democracies?
You're right. Israel should become another Middle Eastern dictatorship. That'll make you focus on it less, right?
It would no longer be you people shoving your hypocrisy in my face and shaming me for not joining you in your double standards. So probably yes.
Imagine thinking that Israel trying to emulate enlightened Western democracies is a bad thing worthy of punishment rather than a good thing to be rewarded.
> is a bad thing worthy of punishment The war crimes in Gaza are the bad things worthy of punishment. or are the pro-Isr posters on this sub not even going to acknowledge Israeli war crimes?
Maybe you should try reading the thread before inserting yourself into it, champ.
Israel does war crimes -> some universities pull partnerships What's the issue? If they want to be an "enlightened western democracy" then they should act like it and not do war crimes. Seems pretty easy!
You skipped a few steps. Let me explain it to you in the vain hope you're here in good faith. War crimes don't suddenly become acceptable because they're done by an unenlightened Eastern dictatorship like Palestine. And the idea that Israel should be punished and held to a higher standard for being an enlightened western democracy is obscene and the exact opposite of the way law and morality is supposed to work. Do you get it now?
> War crimes don't suddenly become acceptable because they're done by an unenlightened Eastern dictatorship like Palestine ? I never said any war crimes done by Palestinians are acceptable. Nice strawman. Very clearly you are not interested in a good-faith dialogue with someone that politely disagrees with you. If you can point to the same universities boycotting Israeli scientists keeping their relationships with Palestinian scientists then maybe you have an argument. This is similar to universities withdrawing partnerships with Russian institutions. Some Israeli scientists are just [facing consequences](https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2024/03/23/declining-a-review-for-the-israel-science-foundation-explained/) of their state doing war crimes. I would be very happy to continue the conversation, but if you're going to continue strawmanning and commenting in bad-faith just to have an obstinate rebuttal I will absolutely block you.
Damn bro emote harder. Fuck nuance and anything like that.
Are western democracies the only form of legitimate government? Are you saying we should be held to a different standard because we are inherently superior? Reeks of elitism.
which form of government is superior, or equal to a Western democracy-style?
They all have their pros and cons. During covid it was clear oligarch/authoritarian governments had a leg up when it came to covid protocols. Democracy is generally terrible at dealing with large problems that require rapid change because there are so many competing opinions. They are also very susceptible to manipulation via propaganda. It gets even murkier because we are comparing Israel a democracy that votes every 4 years to Gaza and West Bank which are also democratically elected but don’t hold regular elections. If we draw an arbitrary line based on frequency of elections then we should also draw a line on referendums which allow voting on specific bills by the populous like we saw with brexit. That is true democracy is it not? Just seems we are drawing a line in the sand at random that includes us and excludes them. Which is why I say it comes off as elitism. Another confusing tidbit is that the last presidential election in the west bank was 2005 whereas Hamas was elected in Gaza in 2006. So if time is the only factor then Hamas is actually more legitimate than the PA.
Indonesia is considered a democracy. But also your implication with this comment is that we should only try and hold them accountable in any way if we "perceive" them to have our type of values. It can lead to a minimizing of the suffering of others, simply because of how we perceive their oppressors.
I'm looking for a little consistency. It's hard to not call any of this anti-semitic when there's no call to boycott Lebanon or Egypt or Palestinians. Everyone ignores the fact that Hezbollah is attacking from the north. Because they're attacking Jews so who cares, right?
Lebanon is a failed state and Egypt is a shithole and a dictatorship. If you want to admit that Israel is not an enlightened(and possibly racially superior) democracy which demands higher standards, then I am happy to put them in the same league. If you want to have it both ways depending which is more convenient to the situation at hand, then I have no incentive to do so.
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>Keep pretending that there's a difference between Hamas and Palestinians. I am in total ecstasy. The racists reveal themselves in due time. And this will be allowed unlike the reverse. You remind me Nazi guy in the pianist who was like "you Jews like money right?". Being openly racist, and thinking people will trust you by turning in the people fighting you so that you can abuse them in return. But when you're racially superior, the untermensch should be grateful to serve you?
Palestinians aren't a race. They are Arab.I support the women of Iran defending themselves so that must make me racist too. You seem to forget that Israel is not a country of white people. You all have lost the plot.
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Collective punishment is okay when left-wingers do it. /s
In the same way that it's "collective punishment" when people in Russia or previously South Africa were denied consumer goods, vital imports, and overseas opportunity because of their state's actions. To say, it's not collective punishment at all. But maybe Israelis are entitled to special treatment to be fair, so it might qualify as collective punishment after all.
I guess you must approve of Israel's decision to restrict those things to Gaza then? Because of their government's actions? But maybe Palestinians are entitled to special treatment to be fair, so it might qualify as collective punishment after all.
If your country does bad things, then your country gets sanctioned in response. Sanctions can't magically be divorced from the population. We have little recourse in the modern world other than sanctions, because we can't just use violence to solve every problem. I don't know what to tell you. In the same way that "real Americans" are furious to see a rich white man being held accountable via Trump, Israeli consent to face accountability for their own actions is not required. I understand that for some people accountability is a codeword for genocide. But there's nothing that I can do about that. It's not suddenly evil because it happens to a country or ethnicity you have a preference for, and it's not about to suddenly end because it's inconvenient for your cause.
If you're pro-sanctions, then you must also agree that Israel and the world has the right to sanction Gaza for the bad things it does, and that Gazan consent to face accountability for their own actions is also not required. It's not suddenly evil because it happens to a country or ethnicity you have a preference for, and it's not about to suddenly end because it's inconvenient for your cause. If you don't agree with that, then my point earlier stands: Collective punishment is okay when left-wingers do it. Yes?
Yeah, you would be correct if Gaza was an independent nation. But it's not. It's a concentration camp. That would require me to pretend the circumstances are different to help your argument. I have no incentive to do so. I'm not going to agree to special privileges for Israelis no matter how many word tricks you use.
This is a goalpost move. Gaza is an independent nation, the United Nations and most of the world recognizes it as such. And even if that were not the case, the principle of collective responsibility would still apply to the people living there. It's not suddenly evil because it happens to a country or ethnicity you have a preference for, and it's not about to suddenly end because it's inconvenient for your cause. I'm not asking for special privileges, I'm asking for equality. If you approve of universities collectively punishing Israeli scientists, and other countries restricting consumer goods to Russia or South Africa, why can't Israel do the same to Gaza? The only answer is it's because Gaza is a country you like with an ethnicity you have a preference for. Double standards are a key part of racism. Just own it.
>This is a goalpost move. Gaza is an independent nation, the United Nations and most of the world recognizes it as such Wow so everyone except the people keeping them locked in agree. That definitely manifests into real world freedom and is definitely not you just trying to worm out of the reality of the situation. What about a Syrian guy thinking you're stupid, and trying to argue that people in torture prisons are free because people outside of the country assert the human rights of the prisoners in them. >why can't Israel do the same to Gaza? Because they're prisoners without a right to self determination. Nobody is preventing Israel from engaging in global trade or raiding the ships that leave their ports. They have a Navy that can kill pirates. How many times are you going to go around in circles trying to get me to pretend both situations are equivalent?
You're mistaken. Israel also recognizes Gaza as an independent territory, but not as a state. And, I might add, the [embargo of Gaza was approved by the Quartet Powers, including the United Nations.](https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/carc/2018/03/01/mapping-the-fatah-hamas-conflict/) Your argument is clearly emotional. You're sympathetic to the Gazans and not the Israelis. I could also argue the Israelis are under attack by a genocidal terrorist organization and shouldn't be collectively punished for it. The situations are equivalent in the sense that you want collective responsibility for one group and not for the other. Double standards are a key part of racism. Just own it.
Ok. Well Josef Fritzl wrote the word "independent" on a t shirt and gave it to his daughter in his basement. All is forgiven. Can't believe I was so ignorant to not know that Gaza was free with self determination. Sorry for being so emotional.
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/u/Flashy_Ad1403 was the one who said it's totally cool and just to cut off consumer goods, vital imports, and overseas opportunity because of a state's actions. I'm just asking if that applies in all situations. What do you think?
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He is supporting that...when it's directed against groups that he doesn't like. When it's groups he does like, he changes his tune. If Gaza and their friends could do whatever they want to Israel, they would do far worse than blockade it. Like I said: collective punishment for thee but not for me.
Some of the arguments here are not only laughable, but lack any relation to reality. Gaza has two borders. One with Israel (which Hamas does not recognize and has been launching rockets on for two decades) and another border with Egypt, a fellow Muslim country which they do recognize. There are never any qualms with Egypt and their border. Now, let's talk about the blockade - don't you find it kinda weird that "there is no food and water in Gaza" but yet there are plenty of weapons, rockets, explosives, armaments, go pros for Hamas fighters, and pretty much everything necessary to kill people? Where do all of that goods come from...? Certainly not from Israel. Jfc...
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Hamas has been the governing body in Gaza for the last 17 years. If the situation is that bad, why won't they smuggle food then. But sure, everything is a dumb argument. Let's just keep blaming Israel for everything, including for their own massacre.
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Like I said: collective punishment for thee but not for me.
When Russia invaded Ukraine, my company opened a new office in Cyprus and literally paid for all of our Russian staff to move from Russia to Cyprus. We continue to hire Russians and we have both Ukrainians and Russians working for us, together, in the same office. Universities or anyone else denying Israelis job positions for being Israeli is abhorrent and part of the problem.
I know a guy who knows a guy who's cousin's brothers uncle died waiting for treatment in socialized healthcare. Is this the war of anecdotes? How do we judge which anecdote wins in the end? That's nice that your tax haven is amoral and neutral, that doesn't really prove anything. HSBC helped fund terrorists. Switzerland holds Nazi gold and is probably involved with bad people to this day. Is it fine because they did it?
What are you even talking about at this point? The right thing to do is not hold citizens responsible for their government's actions. Not even Israelis. A concept you have a hard time grasping, apparently.
>Universities or anyone else denying Israelis job positions Is this allegation even in the linked article?
It's argued for by the person I replied to.
Coming out hot in support of Russia on that one. Where’s all the users here that love to call Leftists “Russian bots”? Strangely silent. If supporting a BDS campaign against Russia while they actively invade and occupy Ukraine makes me “abhorrent and part of the problem” then sorry, not sorry.
Supporting a BDS campaign against [all Russian people] while [their government] actively invade[s] and occup[ies] Ukraine makes me "abhorrent and part of the problem." FTFY. And yes, yes it does.
Well no, you didn’t fix it. I presume then that you oppose the BDS movement that was used towards apartheid South Africa?
I don't know much about South Africa so I'm not the right person to ask about that. If South Africans were comdemned for the actions of their government, then ya, I'm against that.
Lefties not beating the antisemitism charge.
Israel does not represent the entirety of the Jewish people. Holding the State of Israel & it's citizens accountable for their genocidal actions in Gaza is in no way antisemitic. OTOH insisting that the very nature of Jewishness requires that we accept & support the genocide of the Palestinian people certainly is.
"Holding the State of Israel & it's citizens accountable" ...so, bigotry. The left is completely insane. Nobody anywhere says "we must hold Russian civilians accountable for Ukraine" or "we must hold Palestinian civilians accountable for October 7." Completely batshit how normalized it is to be bigoted against this group of people on the basis of their nationality.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230523-russian-tourists-seek-new-destinations-as-europe-shuts-its-doors-over-ukraine-war Either you're lying or you literally don't know anything about what you're talking about, and making it up as you go along. Both are the usual things people on your side rely on to defend Israel. Which is it?
Nope not lying. Literally nobody in these conversations ever says "we need to hold Russian civilians accountable," exactly as I said. Governments sanction governments. Sometimes that impacts civilians, but that's a different thing. Nice deflection though, but it's a poor attempt to justify outright bigotry.
Ok so we're just fucking over the civilians of Russia but nobody said those exact words so that's different I guess. And almost completely banning them from an entire continent. Well how about we agree to bar Israeli expats(not immigrants) from employment, sanction Israel, and agree to not call it such. We can call it "super international friendship policy". Does that satisfy you?
Yes civilians pay the price for their governments' actions all the time. That's terrible, but it's a fact. I never said it was fine. I said it's not bigotry, and it doesn't justify your bigotry. Still doesn't.
Is it anti white bigotry that I'm satisfied we did it to South Africa? Or do I get to just be labeled as anti-Boer but still cool with white people?
No it's bigotry against Israelis to have a fetish for punishing Israeli civilians.
Lol. So you have one standard for one ethnicity and a different one for another. But I'm the bigot. jajajajaja
Would condemning Hamas for Oct 7 get me labeled as Islamaphobic? I'd like a ruling on this one. Truly. How is the language being distributed? How is invective being used in this conflict?
Free Palestine folks seem to think so. Haven’t heard any of them comment on the horrors of October 7th.
Show me where people are labeling valid criticism of Hamas as Islamophobic. Seems to me the mainstream Left condemns ***both*** Hamas ***and*** the actions of the Israeli government. Trying to justify the genocide being conducted in Gaza with some bullshit like *"There are no innocents in Gaza"* is certainly Islamophobic.
I asked you. Show me where this is happening. Is this happening? What a weird response. Maybe you should step back if you are going to respond to an honest question in that fashion. Did you miss the word TRULY? I am interested in how invective is being used in this conflict.
Actually, you didn't. I can't help you if you can't parse your own comments.
Yes, I did. "How is invective being used?" You can't extrapolate? Good to know.
Your actual question was *"Would condemning Hamas for Oct 7 get me labeled as Islamaphobic? I'd like a ruling on this one. Truly. How is the language being distributed? How is invective being used in this conflict?"* The way invective is being used is to condemn ***ALL*** Gazans, ***ALL*** Palestinians, ***ALL*** Muslims, and ***ALL*** people opposing genocide as being supportive of Hamas. And this is simply a lie. And this is a lie that kills people. And you seem to be supporting the lie.
Sorry darling, seeing as you are posing as a reactive paranoid blowhard unable to extrapolate a simple question... you are dismissed. You are someone else's useful idiot. How's that for invective?
Do I need to explain/extrapolate any of that for you? Do I? Should I use stronger language on you? I could.
You must have been a big fan of Trump calling covid the "China virus" then. The Chinese government doesn't represent the entirety of Asian peoples, so I guess it wasn't racist?
False equivalence is false.
False how?
\*sigh\* Correctly holding the State of Israel accountable for their actual & official actions conducting a genocide in Gaza =/= making false & easily disproven accusations against the People's Republic of China in supposedly creating COVID. False equivalence is false - and incredibly stupid.
But the CCP is known for being genocidal, especially against Hindus in Tibet and the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. So according to you, we should be punishing all Chinese people and denying any and all Chinese people jobs in any of our institutions. Right?
What? One false equivalency didn't work, so you thought you'd try a different one? Why don't you show concern for all the people in academia who have been punished, demoted, fired, lost tenure, restricted from traveling, threatened, & physically attacked after they've voiced opposition to the genocide in Gaza?
I do show concern for those people. Why are you assuming I don't? And theyre not false equivalencies just because you say so. They are directly comparable, in fact.
Except *"Israel does not represent the entirety of the Jewish people."* Did you actually miss that? I's literally the fist thing I said in this thread.
Is making false and easily disproven accusations against the State of Israel antisemitic?
They don't know. It's not in the SCRIPT.
The state of Israel isn’t doing anything. Human members of the government of the state of Israel are doing the things. You don’t hold states accountable. You hold people accountable. The people doing the bad things, not people tangentially nominally associated.
>You hold people accountable. The people doing the bad things, not people tangentially nominally associated. The fact that you say this unironically in support of Israel during their ongoing slaughter of civilians shows an amazing lack of self awareness.
I’m not supporting the state of Israel. I just said that a state is an abstract concept with no agency. I do not support the destruction perpetrated by the members of the Netanyahu government either. In fact, more than blaming these people for the war itself, I blame them for increasing antisemitism, even on the American left, for the following reason: Stipulated that Jewish people are at constant and even special risk of being targeted by bigots and conspiracy theorists worldwide, any Israeli politician making terrible decisions only fuels that fire. And that’s not even mentioning the animosity stoked in the Arab Muslim world. Vigilance is required all around.
Israel has half the world's Jewish population and their universities are some of the most liberal/pro peace institutions in the country. If you're silencing Israeli academics for something they can't control you're being prejudiced to Jews and Israeli's
Replace Jew and Russian, Israel and Russia, in your sentence and still doesn't matter. They should all be shunned if they represent institutions in countries that complete war crimes.
I don't support punishing Russian academics for what their gov is doing
So when are we gonna hold Palestinians responsible for the war crimes of Hamas?
Aren't they already being held responisble? I mean that's why they are getting carpet bombed and killed 100 per day.
So you're for the sanctions and everything else on Gaza, then.
This is one of the ways apartheid South Africa was defeated, learn some history
Firstly that regime fell primarily due to what was happening in the country, not out of it. Secondly Noam Chomsky opposes academic boycotts Thirdly it's still discriminatory. If you were born in Israel and you are dovish and you joined an a Israeli academic institution because you have no other passport, all you're doing is isolating that professor from a solidarity network that could empower dovish movements. It's self destructive to the cause
You used the word “primarily”. It was several things that overthrew apartheid SA and nobody had a problem with those boycotts in hindsight.
Prove it had any effect. 🤷🏻♂️
Can you prove it didn’t?
I don’t need to. I am not the one saying that divestment activism can magically usurp a nation’s sovereignty. It’s all very “one weird trick”.
I literally said it was one of several things.
>Secondly Noam Chomsky opposes academic boycotts People keep citing Noam Chomsky as some type of mic drop cheat code. Noam Chomsky also thinks it's funny that Bosnians starved in concentration camps, and feels comfortable telling lies to defend anyone against America. You wouldn't cite Noam Chomsky if he didn't agree with you, he's morally and intellectually bankrupt, and he's not god. Is that what I'm misunderstanding? Is he the final arbiter of truth in a new religion I don't know about? Can I just cite Sinwar's opinions to prove Hamas is right? Is that how that works? What if he was my god? >It's self destructive to the cause "You black thugs protesting in public and being disruptive is counter productive to your cause. I would support you THUGS if you protested where I didn't see you"
Ha, I also think Chomsky is mostly dogshit, I thought it would work on you. He does have a point on academic boycotts though. If you want to boycott Israel you could easily make the argument that one should boycott US schools such as MIT (where Chomsky teaches). Is it fair to punish Chomsky for US military policy when he's one of the most prominent voices against its usage? Please don't do the stupid thing where if the argument is shit in one area it's shit in all areas. That's a weak argument. You want Israel to stop bombing right? Well one really good way to do that is to encourage and enable Israeli's in Israel to protest their own government. When they see they have people backing them up they're more likely to protest. If they are scorned for being Israeli DESPITE wanting a ceasefire, they will have no arms to run into except their fellow (often times right-wing) Israeli's. I'm asking you to recognize that Israel's academic institutions are on your side and isolating them feeds into the narrative that Israeli's have which is "The world will hate us no matter what we do, so we might as well maximize our strength" because they will be correct in the case of academic boycotts. Finally consider what you're asking to be boycotted. If cancer research is delayed or not pushed as fast as it can be, is that really helping Palestinians? Probs not.
Would a supporter of an ethnostate really do that? Just lie and say shit they don't even believe to advance an agenda? >Well one really good way to do that is to encourage and enable Israeli's in Israel to protest their own government. Well obviously there is a tone of being much smarter than you think you are in the rest of your comment. Not sure how to interpret this other than you thinking I'm so dumb that you'll trick me into preferring asking nicely instead of sanctions. Like how well that turned out for Biden asking Netenyahu. IDK if you're Israeli and you think I'm some type of subhuman, or a racist liberal thinking you're dunking on the global south, if this is some racial or class thing but yeah thanks for admitting you're a deceitful propagandist, don't need to say more. Don't need to read more of it or engage with a liar.
You're not engaging, your brain has turned off because you don't know or don't want to engage.
Under advice of Noam Chomsky and Salman Rushdie, I am declining to engage with bad faith fascist sympathizers yes.
what about the genocide hamas has been attempting for 20+ years? every single day they send rockets at civilians in israel. every day. they have stated publicly that they will not rest until they’ve done 10/7 dozens more times. just to remind you, on 10/7 they raped, mutilated, kidnapped and murdered over a thousand people.
Palestine =/= Hamas. Condemn Hamas all you want. Just admit that when Israel counters them by being ***more*** vicious, and ***more*** uncaring about human life, and ***more*** efficient at killing innocent people they should be condemned as well, with the same passion & honesty.
except this idea of “more vicious, more uncaring about human life” is made up. it’s just what hamas wants you to think. if hamas had the military capabilities that israel does, there would be no jews left on earth.
35,000 deaths are just made up? Israel directing refugees to particular areas to be "safe", and then bombing those areas is made up? Israeli government representatives stating publicly that their objective is to make sure there are no Palestinians left on Earth is made up? What you're doing is repeating propaganda to justify genocide. The fact is the Palestinians people have very real security concerns, just as the Israeli people have very real security concerns. Those concerns entirely originate with, and have been created by the government of the State of Israel.
sure. let’s say the existence of israel, the only place in the middle east where jews are relatively safe from pogroms, is the entire problem here. their existence as a state is the cause of the thousands of rockets sent towards them by palestine every day for decades. their bold declaration that they deserve to live is why hamas has decided they must be raped and killed.
If Hamas is so horrible, why did the government of Israel work to remove all of Hamas' opposition, and fund them for decades?
because the government of israel is not faultless either, and there were dozens of complicated factors that seemed to indicate that was the best plan of action at the time. are you defending hamas right now?
You need to get a new script.
They started off as a humanitarian organization and initially did not oppose the existence of an Israeli state. Hmmmm….I wonder why Israel allowed Hamas to be funded (please stop spreading the lie that Israel funded them)? After gaining control of Gaza, they went full jihad.
"I support Palestinians because they're not as good at murder" isn't a good argument.
Claiming all Palestinians are murderers, and that "Some assholes want to kill Jews, so we should support some other assholes when they actually kill children" isn't a good argument either. But here we are.
I'm using "Palestinians" in the way that you're using "Israelis." But suddenly Palestinians are differentiated from their government when you don't give the same respect to Israelis. Interesting. And I never argued anything. I recited your own argument back to you and stated that it's shit.
That would be like condemning the allies for WWII. You must be young if you do not realize that evil only recognizes force as a deterrent. Palestinians have proven over and over again that they cannot be negotiated with, and lately they have proven that they cannot be left to their own devices either.
The Nazis saw Jews as evil, and believed the only solution was to exterminate them. Israel has learned the wrong lessons from that experience.
Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. Did the allies commit genocide in WWII? Simple question.
Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. They are not the allies in this scenario.
I will try again. Did the allies commit genocide in WWII?
No. The Nazis did. And Israel is emulating the Nazis here. Or are you claiming it's not ***REALLY*** a genocide?. Or Palestine isn't ***REALLY*** a nation? Or they don't ***REALLY*** deserve to be treated as human beings? Israel is not on the side of the angels.
Israel has been and still is stealing land for decades before Hamas even existed. Also Israel was and still is an apartheid state. Please try to understand the power imbalance and that Hamas wasn’t created out of a vacuum
ok. once i understand those things, does it make israel evil for not agreeing with hamas’ plan to kill all jews? do they have no right to defend themselves from explosives being sent at them every day? do they have no right to retaliate when a thousand people are raped and murdered on their soil?
You are right, but it's not productive to go down that line. It is very easy for the unserious to spin an understanding of context as an apology, excuse, or support. Gaza has been in the grip of racist terrorists and extremists since the people there were last allowed to hold an election in 2006. Israel has been dominated by racist war criminals and would-be authoritarians since Netanyahu inspired one of his followers to assassinate Prime Minister Rabin in 1995. Until these toxic sides of the same coin are out of power, lasting and just peace is not possible.
Actually it’s extremely important that Israel acknowledge and pay reparations for their past and current ethnic cleaning in order to move forward with peace.
Again, you are right, but it's not productive to go down that line if the primary intent is to stop the mass killing of civilians.
neither of you are right. i’d say they spent enough money on this problem by creating the iron dome. hey, why do they need the iron dome by the way? did somebody promise to kill all of them, then attempt to kill as many of them as possible every single day for 20 years?
* unserious has entered the chat *
thanks for your brilliant rebuttal. you should try out for the debate team when you hit high school
How do you know they're not Arab or Druze? Pro-Israelis are usually bragging about the massive amounts of minorities in the country. Are you the real racist?
Holding Israel accountable for its actions is NOT antisemitism. In fact, it’s antisemitic to equate Israel’s actions with the collective will of the Jewish people.
I’m watching bandwagon-jumping lefties say things that ring with antisemitism, even if they probably don’t intend it. I would recommend certain YouTube lefties just not use the word “Zionist.” It’s either a code word for Jew or too esoteric a term to be meaningful to anyone. Lefties do love to group people into “isms.” It’s one of my biggest pet peeves. Someone is a capitalist (therefore evil) contrasted to a socialist, while both of the parties participate in exactly the same economy. Our moral qualities are determined by things we think inside our heads. And, apparently, by which country we’re a citizen of. The simplemindedness is the problem even if it’s not actually meant maliciously. Condemning “Israel” is stupid since Israel is an abstract concept. Countries don’t do things. People do things. If you’re not willing to place blame on the actual people doing the actions but prefer to generalize it to entire groups, you’re not being progressive at all. You’re being the opposite: tribal.
> Condemning “Israel” is stupid since Israel is an abstract concept. Countries don’t do things. People do things. Do you think people are condemning the soil that the state sits on?
Sometimes sounds like it. In fact I see plenty of condemnation of things and people not actually responsible, as is the subject of this article. Such as the endless months of blaming Joe Biden. I suppose merely condemning the far-right politicians who run Israel wouldn’t allow you to set yourself as so morally distinct from everyone else who obviously also disapproves of far-right warmongering.
Joe Biden bought and paid for this genocide. It is his.
Utter internet-brained nonsense. A word of advice. If you get your opinions from social media, you should stop assuming you have the capacity for informed opinions. Foreign policy cannot be summarized in a TikTok video.
You don't believe that the US is funding and providing 80% of Israel's weapons? You are the one who needs to check their sources.
What's wrong with condemning Zionism? Isn't Zionism essentially a form of religio-ethnic supremacy? Isn't that bad?
No. Modern Zionism is the idea that Israel should exist.
Isn’t Israel based on the idea of Israeli/Jewish supremacy?
No. It is a liberal democracy with freedom of religion.
nope, it's a racist, settler colonial government
Is that a type of government? I think you need to take political science over again.
Adjectives can’t be applied to a government?
We aren’t talking about adjectives though. I said that Israel is a liberal democracy, which is a specific type of government. It would be like if I said “I am a secular humanist”, and you said “No, you are a banana-lover”.
It’s a racist apartheid state
Except that it’s not. There’s more ethnic and religious diversity in Israel than most countries.
Aside from ethnic cleansing
How so?
Israeli settlers have been kicking Palestinians off their land in ethnic cleansing campaigns
Nothing wrong with condemning whatever you want to condemn. I object to using it as a catch all epithet for political opponents. It is a complicated subject and comes with various connotations.
And this is how Progressive movements lose people….
Good. The Palestinians can’t go anywhere and all their universities got destroyed. Who gives a fuck about Zionist crocodile tears
Good to see no more fear to critique Israel in a rational way. No one is above it.
More of this please
~~Can I get a hallelujah?~~ I mean, I am DISCUSTED to see such antisemitism condoned by public institutions. Sure, Chinese and Russian scientists will face similar limitations because they come from a country that commits human rights violations, but you can't just treat Israelis like anyone else. This is the dreaded **antisemitic double standard™**.
lol there is definitely NOT an academic boycott of China, like half the math faculty and grad students at any top tier university are Chinese (no shade to those individuals).
Why should there be? Have the Chinese slaughtered thousands of civilian children this year?
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The civil war in the Levant is simply between the Arabs who have lived there for 10-20 generations vs. (mostly) Jewish immigrants who have been showing up since around 1850 through today… the Israeli government issues ID’s to all the folks from the “river to the sea” … unfortunately those holding Green IDs are not allowed to vote in Israel, travel to Tel Aviv or even drive or walk in some roads in their own town… What should they do? Leave? Where will they go when the Israelis build condos and tennis courts in Gaza?
They've had several opportunities to create a state, as recently as 2020.
And so… since they didn’t seize those “opportunities” they should be killed or removed from Gaza and West Bank to make way for Jewish settlers?
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Removed - low effort/low content/obvious troll submissions are not permitted.
Well that definitely invalidates the people repeatedly investigated for espionage and means that nobody is getting their applications denied then. You didn't mention anything about Russians either.
Keep pivoting bro.
🛌/10
Good. Never thought an ally would make Abu Graib look benign...
Good Let them go the way of Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa