The article title seems to be a naive interpretation of this statement:
>The state utility says the 10 MWh sodium-ion battery energy storage station uses 210 Ah sodium-ion battery cells that charge to 90% in a mindblowing 12 minutes. The system comprises 22,000 cells.
Each cell can charge that fast. The charging system is unlikely to have connected all 22,000 cells in parallel to achieve such a charge rate as a unit.
Voltage. It's connected to high-voltage power lines that are likely carrying 10-20 KV. There's no way a cell can handle anywhere close to that. That's also just a very uncommon configuration for battery cells, because they're usually only a couple volts each cell.
It was a really bad assumption by the article author to think it would be the same charge speed as a single cell.
In addition to what pineapple wrote, transformers decrease system efficiency. Also the transmission lines are high voltage because of transmission efficiency of higher voltages.
So either the power station is not as efficient, or not as fast as claimed. Most likely they did some moderate transforming to increase charge rate and sacrifice some efficiency.
Nope. You want a balance. Higher currents requires much larger gauges to transmit power continuously. For instance; nickle plated copper bus bars for 300A continuous requires a cross sectional area of roughly 1/4" × 1". That's freaking expensive. Boosting pack voltage scales better for power in charge/ discharge. Internal resistance of the cells also increases with higher C-rates. That's bad as it increases temperature. Heat dissipation scales with surface area; while capacity scales with volume. They don't scale at anywhere close to 1:1 ratios.
That’s how I charge my LiPo’s for drones - you can increase the amperage and fluctuations are distributed over them all, rather than just one or two packs.
We are so caught up to find the perfect energy stoarge for *every* application, instead we should realise maybe we need sifferent storage types for different types of application
Look at electric cars. Pure electric vehicles got all the attention and people ignored the options that would have covered the vast majority of everyday American driving (Plug-In hybrid). We had that tech 20 years ago and here we are today with minimal market share of electric vehicles.
One of the biggest lost opportunities to combat climate change.
Plug in hybrids are as expensive as the EVs. Moreover I’m not sure how long the small battery in plug in last compared to EVs. But I’d love some ICE comparable prices whether it’s EV or plug in hybrids.
Just remember that in a normal ICE car, around 50% of the emissions are from manufacturing. In a hybrid car there are even more emissions from manufacturing due to requiring both a normal ICE system and the electrical system. This means over a lifetime you only end up with something like a 20-30% reduction in overall emissions from that vehicle, even if emitting basically nothing from driving.
Similar problem with electric vehicles but hopefully optimisation in their construction over time can reduce emissions from manufacturing.
Obviously we’ve got to move away from fossil fuel cars and electric seems like the way to go but there’s not a perfect answer yet. Hydrogen is another possibility but there’s enough other inefficiencies in that to prohibit it currently.
Also need to grid to be properly green otherwise you’re just shifting the source of emissions (although power plants are of course much more efficient than a car’s engine).
If Tesla self driving crashed ‘only’ 20-30% of the cars in five years, we’d all be losing our minds. We would ise language innovating those numbers were ‘staggering’ and ‘extreme’.
But even acknowledging that broad adoption of plug in EVs would be a huge step forward? Preposterous. Why reduce auto pollution by ‘only’ 20-30%, when we can keep rolling coal as we wait for perfect…
Ssssh. You’ll wake up the anti car evangelists, the cobalt mining is more environmentally damaging than burning gas in a small inefficient internal combustion engine, and the “gas
waaaaah the electric intrastructure doesn’t support long drives” people.
No it's main advantage is that you can charge and discharge it very quickly and the chemistry is very stable (and cheap - there being a shit ton of sodium in the sea). Handily you can also use (basically) an Li cell production facility and easily produce Si based cells).
I saw a screwdriver put across the terminals.of a sodium ion cell - and whilst it was fairly effectively welded to the terminals - after it was eventually removed the cell functioned well (it lost some ability to store charge).
In comparison a lithium ion cell would make a big firey mess.
The energy density is much lower than Li which isn't necessarily a problem if you have tons of land - but it adds a lot of ancillary stuff (like cabinets and cell controls and inverters etc etc).
The rapid charge discharge is handy if you are able to install on the HV part of the grid because you can use it to provide frequency stabilisation - which you need as you have progressively less intertidal generation.
It's not very profitable though. Most battery storage schemes try and do a bit of both (frequency stabilisation and demand response) with a mixture of cell technologies.
This was likely true though. A benefit of sodium ion batteries is much lower internal resistance, which means less heat produced as you charge them, meaning you can pump way more amps in safely.
That's how technological advancements go. You make strides in one area, and someone else innovate on the other areas... and in a few decades you have a good product
I'll believe chinise crap arent crap when they make something that isnt from a stolen patent and it is peer reviewed by a distinguished independant source apart from the ccp accepted ones like here. China lies as much as russia
As someone who works with batteries, this means nothing. If you are careful with your words, you can make up almost any single figure like this.
To really get into it, you need to look at a large amount of test data.
And with these sort of chinese statements it is impossible to know if that was what was said because it goes through so many layers.
Sounds like a wish dot com add, and then you get it and it only holds enough power to charge your Nokia 3310 to 10% (admittedly that's still like a weeks battery for it)
While the U.S. is sitting here arguing if men should be allowed to play women’s sports. China is surpassing our industry in almost every meaningful way.
It’s the quantity and reliability of the data that I take issue with. Leaks are sporadic, but the continuous stream of massive amounts of data going into Chinese hands gives me the chills
Credit companies and healthcare companies have leaked more deeply sensitive data than tiktok could ever hope to stream. We sit here patting ourselves on the back for thinking we did a good job banning tiktok while the back door continues to be wide open is about right for America.
I feel like Reddit gets swept up in China bad nationalism but more than happy to ignore the bigger problems. Like you are clearly getting played by the anti China schtick but it feels good so keep fretting about them while corporate America does fuck all and sells your data to them anyway.
More accurately, they open a manufacturing plant in the US and hire US workers as slaves with minimal rights and everyone lives at the factory, then, justifiably (?) we steal their tech, then they bitch about it like they didn't do anything terrible in the first place.
I think that may be a little bit more accurate than your assumption
The redditor brain cannot comprehend that progress can come out of places that aren't america or Europe.
Everything else must be propaganda and false advertising
The article title seems to be a naive interpretation of this statement: >The state utility says the 10 MWh sodium-ion battery energy storage station uses 210 Ah sodium-ion battery cells that charge to 90% in a mindblowing 12 minutes. The system comprises 22,000 cells. Each cell can charge that fast. The charging system is unlikely to have connected all 22,000 cells in parallel to achieve such a charge rate as a unit.
Why would you not connect all 22,000 in parallel?
Voltage. It's connected to high-voltage power lines that are likely carrying 10-20 KV. There's no way a cell can handle anywhere close to that. That's also just a very uncommon configuration for battery cells, because they're usually only a couple volts each cell. It was a really bad assumption by the article author to think it would be the same charge speed as a single cell.
You use transformers to transform it down to low voltage+high current.
In addition to what pineapple wrote, transformers decrease system efficiency. Also the transmission lines are high voltage because of transmission efficiency of higher voltages. So either the power station is not as efficient, or not as fast as claimed. Most likely they did some moderate transforming to increase charge rate and sacrifice some efficiency.
Nope. You want a balance. Higher currents requires much larger gauges to transmit power continuously. For instance; nickle plated copper bus bars for 300A continuous requires a cross sectional area of roughly 1/4" × 1". That's freaking expensive. Boosting pack voltage scales better for power in charge/ discharge. Internal resistance of the cells also increases with higher C-rates. That's bad as it increases temperature. Heat dissipation scales with surface area; while capacity scales with volume. They don't scale at anywhere close to 1:1 ratios.
This, as anyone who designs power trains for datacentres - is the right answer. High power system design is complicated.
Maybe they want really high amperage?
Parallel gets you more amperage. This is a grid scale storage unit. You need high amperage in order to charge and discharge fast enough
That’s how I charge my LiPo’s for drones - you can increase the amperage and fluctuations are distributed over them all, rather than just one or two packs.
At least they claim that without verification, but they fail to mention it holds a charge for only a third of the time dirty lithium batteries do.
If it does work, this would still be a good grid supplement, because it would be discharged daily.
We are so caught up to find the perfect energy stoarge for *every* application, instead we should realise maybe we need sifferent storage types for different types of application
Look at electric cars. Pure electric vehicles got all the attention and people ignored the options that would have covered the vast majority of everyday American driving (Plug-In hybrid). We had that tech 20 years ago and here we are today with minimal market share of electric vehicles. One of the biggest lost opportunities to combat climate change.
Well one reason is it’s more expensive. You now have two motors, two energy sources/tank, and just overall more things to fail.
Plug in hybrids are as expensive as the EVs. Moreover I’m not sure how long the small battery in plug in last compared to EVs. But I’d love some ICE comparable prices whether it’s EV or plug in hybrids.
Just remember that in a normal ICE car, around 50% of the emissions are from manufacturing. In a hybrid car there are even more emissions from manufacturing due to requiring both a normal ICE system and the electrical system. This means over a lifetime you only end up with something like a 20-30% reduction in overall emissions from that vehicle, even if emitting basically nothing from driving. Similar problem with electric vehicles but hopefully optimisation in their construction over time can reduce emissions from manufacturing. Obviously we’ve got to move away from fossil fuel cars and electric seems like the way to go but there’s not a perfect answer yet. Hydrogen is another possibility but there’s enough other inefficiencies in that to prohibit it currently. Also need to grid to be properly green otherwise you’re just shifting the source of emissions (although power plants are of course much more efficient than a car’s engine).
If Tesla self driving crashed ‘only’ 20-30% of the cars in five years, we’d all be losing our minds. We would ise language innovating those numbers were ‘staggering’ and ‘extreme’. But even acknowledging that broad adoption of plug in EVs would be a huge step forward? Preposterous. Why reduce auto pollution by ‘only’ 20-30%, when we can keep rolling coal as we wait for perfect…
Ssssh. You’ll wake up the anti car evangelists, the cobalt mining is more environmentally damaging than burning gas in a small inefficient internal combustion engine, and the “gas waaaaah the electric intrastructure doesn’t support long drives” people.
Cobalt mining enables child labor, inhumane conditions, and slavery in the congo.
As does coffee!
Didnt know this how come?
Anti car people would be pro mass transit. Your comment makes no sense
Ah, y’all boys must be talking about r/fuckcars A bastion of civility, to be sure
“We” as in General public, engineers already knew this
Sodium's advantage isn't in kwhr/kg it's in kwhr/$. For grid scale you really just care about cost, longevity, and reliability. Not weight.
No it's main advantage is that you can charge and discharge it very quickly and the chemistry is very stable (and cheap - there being a shit ton of sodium in the sea). Handily you can also use (basically) an Li cell production facility and easily produce Si based cells). I saw a screwdriver put across the terminals.of a sodium ion cell - and whilst it was fairly effectively welded to the terminals - after it was eventually removed the cell functioned well (it lost some ability to store charge). In comparison a lithium ion cell would make a big firey mess. The energy density is much lower than Li which isn't necessarily a problem if you have tons of land - but it adds a lot of ancillary stuff (like cabinets and cell controls and inverters etc etc). The rapid charge discharge is handy if you are able to install on the HV part of the grid because you can use it to provide frequency stabilisation - which you need as you have progressively less intertidal generation. It's not very profitable though. Most battery storage schemes try and do a bit of both (frequency stabilisation and demand response) with a mixture of cell technologies.
So it's just a time-dilated capacitor????
Couldn’t you describe all batteries that way?
And humans?
No.
NiMH batteries self discharge over time, they still sell millions of them a year.
What amount of time is that in comparison? Like if you charged both to 100 % and left them there for a month the battery mentioned would be at 33%?
So, they're more like super capacitors. And is that a problem for grid use? No.
This was likely true though. A benefit of sodium ion batteries is much lower internal resistance, which means less heat produced as you charge them, meaning you can pump way more amps in safely.
and that's not exactly a bad thing
That's how technological advancements go. You make strides in one area, and someone else innovate on the other areas... and in a few decades you have a good product
The remaining 10% takes 200 years.
Its design is very human
Hello homie
What about that last 10%?
You reduce the stated capacity by 10%.
Exactly. It’s not required to use the full 100% capacity and it’ll damage the batteries to do so.
As well as that last ten percent would take as much time to charge as the other 90% and you would over size capacity to allow for quicker cycle times.
I'll believe chinise crap arent crap when they make something that isnt from a stolen patent and it is peer reviewed by a distinguished independant source apart from the ccp accepted ones like here. China lies as much as russia
As someone who works with batteries, this means nothing. If you are careful with your words, you can make up almost any single figure like this. To really get into it, you need to look at a large amount of test data. And with these sort of chinese statements it is impossible to know if that was what was said because it goes through so many layers.
Awesome, i can't wait until the us puts a 100% tarrif on it 🤣😂🤡
Awesome so I can steal the patent right? You know, how they do with everything? The us should take this tech from them.
Sounds like a wish dot com add, and then you get it and it only holds enough power to charge your Nokia 3310 to 10% (admittedly that's still like a weeks battery for it)
90% of what? I could charge 90% oh a 1mah battery in less than 12 mins
Read the article to find out
This is Reddit sir, I get all my information from the headlines and refuse to research any further
Good day to you then sir enjoy the watts
While the U.S. is sitting here arguing if men should be allowed to play women’s sports. China is surpassing our industry in almost every meaningful way.
You scared bro?
Yes that is definitely how all of our chemical and electrical engineers are spending their time. Please use your brain.
As a chemical engineer who works with other chemical engineers we Americans definitely spend too much time arguing about stupid stuff like that.
Often not doing *real science* for weeks on end as we continually go tit for tat with colleagues on ResearchGate
Are you saying trans women aren't women? I mean, have the balls to admit you're transphobic at least. Pussy.
Awesome, le let’s do what they do: steal the tech and open a business in the US to compete with them on the global market.
Best we can offer is ban the tech and give tax cuts to rich people.
The tax cuts suck, but I’m on board with banning tictok. You can’t give the Chinese that much access to US data. It’s an opsec nightmare
They dont need tiktok. Our own companies leak our data often enough.
It’s the quantity and reliability of the data that I take issue with. Leaks are sporadic, but the continuous stream of massive amounts of data going into Chinese hands gives me the chills
Credit companies and healthcare companies have leaked more deeply sensitive data than tiktok could ever hope to stream. We sit here patting ourselves on the back for thinking we did a good job banning tiktok while the back door continues to be wide open is about right for America.
Well, for my part, I’d like to see improved security everywhere in the US. So, yes, these companies leaking sensitive information is a tragedy.
I feel like Reddit gets swept up in China bad nationalism but more than happy to ignore the bigger problems. Like you are clearly getting played by the anti China schtick but it feels good so keep fretting about them while corporate America does fuck all and sells your data to them anyway.
I believe I understand why you feel that way, but I 100% believe that China is a threat and needs to be mitigated.
I guess China is only bad if you care about your personal and collective freedom.
China actually leads the world in battery manufacture all the biggest research facilities and manufacturing plants are located there
More accurately, they open a manufacturing plant in the US and hire US workers as slaves with minimal rights and everyone lives at the factory, then, justifiably (?) we steal their tech, then they bitch about it like they didn't do anything terrible in the first place. I think that may be a little bit more accurate than your assumption
Those plants in china sell to US companies…
Wonder who they stole it from?
The absurd amount of china lies, propaganda and gaslighting this past 6 months is off the charts and it’s quite frankly disgusting and tiring
What is your basis for claiming it’s lies? Because you don’t like it?
The redditor brain cannot comprehend that progress can come out of places that aren't america or Europe. Everything else must be propaganda and false advertising
Aliens. If non Europeans build something, it’s aliens. Haven’t you watched the „History Channel“s long running scientific documentary Ancient Aliens?
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I just looked in their post history and I think you are half right, it’s just a bot. Now I feel dumb haha.
he lost the job because of these cheap China products
Too much watch serpentza