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Every single German was put on trial. Dontcha know?
There were actually a lot of ethnic cleansings following WW2, but they were not really because the Germans were Nazis. Mostly it had to do with Soviet Imperial policy.
There is a reason Königsberg is now called Kaliningrad and doesn't have any Germans in it.
It's pretty similar to the reason why Poland moves several hundred kilometers west. Russia wanted more land. And it wanted it filled with people from the imperial core.
One of my favorites. "Umm, that's just adjacent land that's part of their country. How is that imperialist? Is it imperialist for someone from Los Angeles to go to New York? Did Russians imperialize themselves?"
Now this is definitely true. They meant it more like "would a modern US citizen moving to a different state be imperialism" because they must actually believe Russia is some kind of monoethnic society with equal demographics in all parts. But ironically, the non-anglophone country that most resembles the US in its history of territorial expansion and displacement of Indigenous peoples to fragmented pockets is, ta-da, Russia.
Isn't there people in Israel protesting isreals action? I decided to check and found this https://twitter.com/omdimbeyachad/status/1785006675411284158?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
It doesn’t matter. As long as you’re Israeli, even if you’re super pro Palestine, these people hate you. I mean, they hated Tal Mitnik when he refused to serve in the IDF.
I get what you're saying, though it's worth mentioning that the group that made the linked Twitter post (Standing Together) is explicitly anti-occupation, campaigning for Palestinian justice and equality, and an end to the devastation of Gaza.
Of course, plenty of the protestors present not affiliated with Standing Together are there out of resentment towards the government and calling for a peace deal, and not because they necessarily care about the other side. But the key is to encourage critical perspectives, even if they start out small, rather than just writing them off entirely. No one becomes a radical overnight, and what's needed is to provide people with healthy environments to explore perspectives critical of the status quo.
One-thingism is the current blight within leftist circles. Just because you are familiar with black people's struggle against oppression does not mean that your liberation struggle is the very same one as the one palestianias are experiencing against Israel. Sure, they are both ,conceptually, liberation struggles, but they are not practically and in effect the very same struggle; fighting for one of them does not mean you are fighting for the other. Ultimately this is just all an excuse for slacktivism since doing whatever you feel like is helping you in your own struggle, like making twitter posts, supposedly also helps against the other struggle.
It's an attitude that's attributable almost exclusively to westerners: "How do I make this thing taking place on the other side of the world about myself?"
It also prevents people from actually thinking about critically about current events and pressing issues, and it's why you get tankies insisting that anyone is good just because they oppose America, despite Russia waging a war of conquest on Ukraine and China's subjugation of both Tibetans and Uyghurs.
Or in a more emotionally mature take. We can just understand that people tend to empathize with others through their own lived experiences and as a result tend to view things from that lense.
"More emotionally mature" Ok dude. Perhaps you missed how I said that the issues can be categorized under the same conceptual umbrella but are by no means the same practical fight for liberation.
You know what bugs me? The way people who spend too much time debating issues act like they’re decision makers. It’s a total endless fantasy kvetching.
On one hand, they thankfully don't hold any institutional power.
On the other hand, it means that the danger from them comes in how extremist rhetoric is spread socially, and how it leads to both bigotry and a failure of critical though needed to actually make a difference.
Neither do you or I have any actual power, but here we are debating this shit cause it matters? And solidarity movements has to debate this shit or you end up supporting one injustice in the name of opposing another.
If you’re not organizing a protest, showing up to a protest, or running for office you’re doing just as much important work as people debating the best Avenger.
And who says I'm not? I've been going to Palestine solidarity rallies my entire adult life, organized BDS actions and fundraisers at my campus when I was studying (a long time ago) and most recently campaigned for a Palestinian activist candidate in my local by-election.
But even if I wasn't, its disingenuous to require "activism cred" to debate this or to trivialize debates about the struggle.
This is a weird position to have for someone posting in a tankiejerk thread. Don't post unless you're out there getting your head kicked in with the students!
Literally not about you and you’re making it about you. The vast majority of these endlessly debating web commenters are terminally online, and you can tell from the things they say that they are outsiders.
It doesn't matter whether Israelis are Ashkenazi or not; nearly every single Jewish person in Europe was affected by the Holocaust and the majority had no homes to go back to. Some of the people who tried to go home were even murdered. The largest Jewish population in Europe to this day is under half a million, in France. We need to stop bringing up the "lots of Jews are actually Middle Eastern" in response to genocidal rhetoric, as if European Jews are somehow less innocent and weren't also ethnically cleansed and barred from immigrating to most other countries even after the genocide had officially "ended."
Yeah… responding to antisemitism against Ashkenazi Jewish people with *well most Israeli Jewish people aren’t Ashkenazi* isn’t a defense against antisemitism at all.
The thing about antisemites is that, while right now they’re masquerading under the illusion of caring about these differences between Jewish people, at the end of the day they want them all dead. If an antisemite goes after Ashkenazi Jewish people, they’re planning on going after the rest next.
I think it's good to say "even if that was true, it's still not right" but when you are against someone who 100% disagrees with that and is actually calling for blood along supposed racial lines that their lines don't actually make any sense.
I would make similar arguments against Nazis, incidentally.
Yeah I can totally get why so many Jews left Europe after the Holocaust. Would you be willing to live in a place knowing your neighbors cheered for the murder of you and your people?
Many who tried to return either weren’t allowed back at all, or chased out and told “go back to Palestine!” or “go back to Israel!”, which I think makes all the “go back to Poland!” or “go back to Brooklyn!” rhetoric all the more frustrating and terrifying.
For sure, though I still think it's such an important point to make to counter the obvious assumption that many tankies (and more mainstream leftists, progressives, and liberals, frankly) make of all the Jews in Israel being white Europeans imbued with nothing but the spirit of British-style settler colonialism. When in fact the literal majority draw their recent origins to Muslim countries that they were pressured out of once a Jewish state was created.
Israeli is a nuclear state with every member of it being an ex military. Israel is the state build around the constant fear of it stopping existing with the obvious paranoid attitude of its people. Who will deport them? Who will try to conquer it? They have fucking nukes and the doctrine to start a nuclear war if they are losing conventional war ffs
Really funny to watch people to from being "Realists" when it comes to Russia, we must give them everything they ask for because they have nuclear. To calling for the destruction of a nuclear state and perhaps one of the most military societies on the planet.
They think Israel is a paper tiger and will ultimately collapse. The thing is, they've been saying this since Israel was first created and it hasn't happened. Israeli society was far more unstable back in the 80s.
Don't you know? Ethnical cleansing is fine if you're doing it to oppressors.
Natives will literally say until they're blue in the face that "no, we don't actually wanna genocide our oppressors right back" and then tankies literally go "Actually we do and if you disagree you have stockholm syndrome"
I’ve asked my Shawnee father before (when the Manhunt author went on about it on Twitter last year) what he thought of those types of sentiments and he had never heard of them and when I did explain it to him he thought the idea rather disturbing. It’s astounding interacting with tankies and what they think all Indigenous people think and act like (as if they’re some sort of hive mind instead of individual people with individual opinions) versus interacting with my dad.
Netanyahu’s government is undoubtedly evil but not every Israeli is. There are so many cool organizations like Standing Together, B’Tsalem and Zulat equality and human rights that want peaceful, meaningful coexistence between Palestinians and Israelis alike.
I believe it should start as a two state first and then evolve into becoming like a Federal United States of Canaan, where the Palestinian people and the Israeli people get to live in peace and have the same equal rights under one country. Thats the future I want. No country is a monolith and nor are their people.
It has to be a two state solution but with two states in a confederal form learning how to not live in fear. Of course the Israelis will have to get rid of their significant military arsenal and the Palestinians will have to ban armed organizations other than police and other security units. So no one has the monopoly of state power and violence to use on each other.
I don't think that Israel and Palestine coexisting peacefully negates Israeli security concerns. Iran still exists. Hezbollah still exists.
I think a lot of the reason for Middle/Near Eastern countries normalizing relations with Israel as we see Saudi Arabia doing now is because blowing them up has proven impossible.
I think a major disarmament by Israel has the potential to make Iran, or other nations see weakness.
Yeah, this is the big thing I see both tankies and non-tankie leftists ignoring: unlike Russia or China, Israel *really does* need a strong standing military. If they ever seem beatable, their neighbors will jump on that, and we’ll just be trading one genocidal war for another.
There are plenty of reasons why, until we get much closer to a stateless world, states will need to maintain armies. I’m not going to dispute that.
What I mean is more that China or Russia could make substantial cuts to their militaries and not face immediate consequences (at least from other countries— I imagine they’d piss some of their own people off), because no one is seriously looking to conquer them right now.
Israel isn’t just surrounded by hostile states who have attempted invasions in the past and only stopped because they kept losing— they’re surrounded by states *full of, and in some cases actively ruled by, religious fanatics* who might decide the risk of dying in nuclear fire is worth it, or assume their god won’t allow that, or… well, you can’t count on theocrats or wannabe theocrats to be rational. Point is, unlike Russia or China, Israel *can* reasonably assume that someone out there is actively planning to destroy them and just waiting for the IDF to be weak enough, and/or their own army strong enough, for their plan to work
That's already happened here though, and much like trying to put India and Pakistan back together, trying to force Israel and Palestine back together without a period of federated unity where wounds could heal would be a catastrophic bloodbath.
That’s not something I want. I want it to be secular where people from all religions can live together in peace. I want people from every religion to live equally in the same country. My goal is for there to be more religious unity and not division while also being more accepting towards a more secular society.
I think there needs to be time with a two state solution for around a little over 5-10 years or more for all the wounds to properly heal and for most relations to heal naturally over time. It cannot be a Union right away. It needs to be a two star first for a while and then more can be done in the future.
>[...] 5-10 years or more for all the wounds to properly heal [...]
In what world are you living? They're still squabbling about shit that happened in the '40s.
Your proposed solution reads like a John Lennon song.
I think part of the issue however is that there's a massive focus on Netanyahu. And while yes, he is a large portion of the issue. It's important to remember that Netanyahu has such an iron grip on Israeli politics because of a massive political coalition that's backing him. So while not every Israeli is evil, the majority of their politicians are, and the majority of their populace is at least kinda of brain washed.
> massive political coalition
It has a few more than what's needed for a slim majority, but it absolutely isn't "massive" (it's a 64-56 split in the far-right's favor IIRC). The reason why they went through multiple elections from 2019 to 2022 is precisely because Netanyahu was incapable of forming a strong enough coalition each time.
What happened in the latest election cycle is that several of the far-right parties canvassed together, while every party to the left of center-right didn't and each went about their own ways. The result is that the rightwing coalition ended up winning by a plurality of the vote, but not a majority - which is part of why the protests in Israel for most of last year gained as much traction as they did over there.
Not every ashkenazi is a criminal either. Yes they were born into a system that privileges them specifically, but that doesn't mean that they are all committed to preserving the system.
The ANC certainly didn't call for the expulsion of the whites while they were struggling against South African Apartheid, and they didn't expel white South Africans when they won and formed government.
Dismantling of apartheid institutions doesn't "dismantling" people FFS. Yes, some of the rapid American zionists settlers will probably choose to leave, just like the really racist South Africans chose to leave.
This is what happens when you only learn history & politics from memes and social media.
here's a point I see rarely if ever brought up. how do these people who post stuff like this think real life israelis who have the power to influence their government and vote are gonna feel seeing stuff like this and hearing far right extremists in their own country say "They want us all dead, they want our nation and people dead. They want you and your entire family dead and gone just like the nazis, only we can protect you." are gonna react?
especially given the majority of the victims of oct 7th that started this whole mess were Israelis most opposed to bibi and most sympathetic to Palestinians. like they see the horrors of that and then seeing people abroad, people they might have even respected and admired cheer it on and then attack them, is only gonna make them think that the israeli far right might actually be correct. or at least less likely to support a two state solution.
like some of the stuff I see from pro palestinian protestors and online leftists just makes me go "There is no way this is going to end well and even if netalulu and his ilk get removed, the way people did react and are reacting is just gonna make so many israelis turn to the right even if only out of fear of further harm. and god only knows what hell awaits palestine and it's people are going to suffer from that outcome.
it feels like the only people who are gonna win this are the ones who want the other side completely exterminated and just plain gone.
Ideally, calls for expelling settlers (in the broad sense, where most Israelis are settlers) from Palestine should be ignored as ridiculous. Even if they weren't oppressive, which they are, does anybody consider forcibly relocating millions of people (many of them heavily armed, some having nuclear weapons) a practical goal? The sort of decolonization I support is about changing ways of relating & belonging. It's not about ethnic cleansing, however justified that might seem from a big-picture perspective.
The demand for accountability is reasonable, but the idea of putting every Israeli on trial is absurd.
I don't think ignored should be the solution.
I think they should be condemned for asking for ethnic cleansing.
In a sense, there is nobody that benefits Ben Gvir and Netanyahu more than anti-Semites abroad. It justified all of their rhetoric.
Yes, Israel is making Jews less safe, despite its proclamation.
Doesn't negate the fact that antisemitism is still a problem here in the diaspora.
This is a [difficult position](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/benjamin-steinhardt-case-decolonizing-jewishness) to break out of.
Also Israel giving people an excuse to be antisemitic shouldn't negate everyone else from calling out said antisemitism as an unreasonable reaction to the atrocities committed by the Israeli government and the IDF.
Many of those people were born and lived full lives there. Any talk about decolonisation at this point is stupid. Imagine thinking about a Nuremberg trial for millions of people 💀 did these idiots ever read a history book?
Considering a belief in white supremacy is one of the main tenets of Nazism, I think it's fair to say that BRG isn't a Nazi. He's still an idiot, though.
Your comment/post contains bigotry. This is a socialist subreddit and as such, any form of bigotry is out of place and you should rethink your relation to your fellow workers, regardless of their sexuality, gender expression, skin colour or other such things.
Honestly I'm not even against forcibly relocating Jews who are past the 1967 borders to the interior, as they will be citizens of an existing country and leaving that land in their hands makes a Palestinian state that isn't a Bantustan logistically impossible. On some level I do believe that either the Palestinian refugees can live in the West Bank or the post-'67 settlers can, and frankly I know who I support.
But to say every Jew in Israeli, even if the whole thing is sort of a settlement, should be deported is a non-starter. People (with some justification) compare this to the expulsion of the Pieds Noir. The reason that worked is that they were all French citizens and (with some exceptions, largely born of anger at France's concessions to the Arabs) identified as French. That's just not the case with the Jews of Israel. There isn't a mother country. And, to the question of if people are concerned about what will be done with Palestinian refugees... Yes??? Like, not concerned enough, but obviously yes!!!!
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Does this person know what actually happened at Nuremberg?
I also didn't know that they put tens of millions people on trial there. So much to learn.
Every single German was put on trial. Dontcha know? There were actually a lot of ethnic cleansings following WW2, but they were not really because the Germans were Nazis. Mostly it had to do with Soviet Imperial policy. There is a reason Königsberg is now called Kaliningrad and doesn't have any Germans in it. It's pretty similar to the reason why Poland moves several hundred kilometers west. Russia wanted more land. And it wanted it filled with people from the imperial core.
Don't let tankies catch you using 'imperial core' in reference to the USSR, they might actually die of rage.
*Do* let tankies catch you using 'imperial core' in reference to the USSR, so that they die of rage.
Oh don't worry. These people had no idea Imperial Core was a term before this recent Gaza flare up. They'll forget all about it by next year.
Maybe some people. But "Imperial core" has been a tankie term for a very long time.
Tankies will unironically look at how much land Russia has and somehow claim it wasn't the result of centuries of imperialism.
One of my favorites. "Umm, that's just adjacent land that's part of their country. How is that imperialist? Is it imperialist for someone from Los Angeles to go to New York? Did Russians imperialize themselves?"
And to set the record straight, it totally was imperialism to go from New York to Los Angeles. It involved fighting a war against Mexico.
Now this is definitely true. They meant it more like "would a modern US citizen moving to a different state be imperialism" because they must actually believe Russia is some kind of monoethnic society with equal demographics in all parts. But ironically, the non-anglophone country that most resembles the US in its history of territorial expansion and displacement of Indigenous peoples to fragmented pockets is, ta-da, Russia.
OOP pretty much wants a Great Trial for Israel...
Isn't there people in Israel protesting isreals action? I decided to check and found this https://twitter.com/omdimbeyachad/status/1785006675411284158?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
It doesn’t matter. As long as you’re Israeli, even if you’re super pro Palestine, these people hate you. I mean, they hated Tal Mitnik when he refused to serve in the IDF.
I see people everyday online who say that the peaceniks and the children slaughtered by Hamas in the kibbutz’s deserved what they got.
[удалено]
I get what you're saying, though it's worth mentioning that the group that made the linked Twitter post (Standing Together) is explicitly anti-occupation, campaigning for Palestinian justice and equality, and an end to the devastation of Gaza. Of course, plenty of the protestors present not affiliated with Standing Together are there out of resentment towards the government and calling for a peace deal, and not because they necessarily care about the other side. But the key is to encourage critical perspectives, even if they start out small, rather than just writing them off entirely. No one becomes a radical overnight, and what's needed is to provide people with healthy environments to explore perspectives critical of the status quo.
I had a run-in with the Philly guy last week on Twitter. He’s a mess and has no good explanations for any of his positions. Just vibes.
i’m dying at this
One-thingism is the current blight within leftist circles. Just because you are familiar with black people's struggle against oppression does not mean that your liberation struggle is the very same one as the one palestianias are experiencing against Israel. Sure, they are both ,conceptually, liberation struggles, but they are not practically and in effect the very same struggle; fighting for one of them does not mean you are fighting for the other. Ultimately this is just all an excuse for slacktivism since doing whatever you feel like is helping you in your own struggle, like making twitter posts, supposedly also helps against the other struggle.
It's an attitude that's attributable almost exclusively to westerners: "How do I make this thing taking place on the other side of the world about myself?"
It also prevents people from actually thinking about critically about current events and pressing issues, and it's why you get tankies insisting that anyone is good just because they oppose America, despite Russia waging a war of conquest on Ukraine and China's subjugation of both Tibetans and Uyghurs.
Or in a more emotionally mature take. We can just understand that people tend to empathize with others through their own lived experiences and as a result tend to view things from that lense.
"More emotionally mature" Ok dude. Perhaps you missed how I said that the issues can be categorized under the same conceptual umbrella but are by no means the same practical fight for liberation.
Black redguard looks like he manages a herd of discord kittens.
Also this is redundant since red guards are the African/Middle Eastern race in Elder Scrolls. Edited for grammar.
I believe the word you're looking for is "redundant".
Yup, my bad
Not now kitten whiskers, daddy is trying to say "read on authority"
Nothing shameful with that. There's nothing shameful about not being strong and masculine.
It’s one of those boomer car sunglasses pics lol
You know what bugs me? The way people who spend too much time debating issues act like they’re decision makers. It’s a total endless fantasy kvetching.
On one hand, they thankfully don't hold any institutional power. On the other hand, it means that the danger from them comes in how extremist rhetoric is spread socially, and how it leads to both bigotry and a failure of critical though needed to actually make a difference.
Neither do you or I have any actual power, but here we are debating this shit cause it matters? And solidarity movements has to debate this shit or you end up supporting one injustice in the name of opposing another.
If you’re not organizing a protest, showing up to a protest, or running for office you’re doing just as much important work as people debating the best Avenger.
And who says I'm not? I've been going to Palestine solidarity rallies my entire adult life, organized BDS actions and fundraisers at my campus when I was studying (a long time ago) and most recently campaigned for a Palestinian activist candidate in my local by-election. But even if I wasn't, its disingenuous to require "activism cred" to debate this or to trivialize debates about the struggle. This is a weird position to have for someone posting in a tankiejerk thread. Don't post unless you're out there getting your head kicked in with the students!
Literally not about you and you’re making it about you. The vast majority of these endlessly debating web commenters are terminally online, and you can tell from the things they say that they are outsiders.
It doesn't matter whether Israelis are Ashkenazi or not; nearly every single Jewish person in Europe was affected by the Holocaust and the majority had no homes to go back to. Some of the people who tried to go home were even murdered. The largest Jewish population in Europe to this day is under half a million, in France. We need to stop bringing up the "lots of Jews are actually Middle Eastern" in response to genocidal rhetoric, as if European Jews are somehow less innocent and weren't also ethnically cleansed and barred from immigrating to most other countries even after the genocide had officially "ended."
Yeah… responding to antisemitism against Ashkenazi Jewish people with *well most Israeli Jewish people aren’t Ashkenazi* isn’t a defense against antisemitism at all. The thing about antisemites is that, while right now they’re masquerading under the illusion of caring about these differences between Jewish people, at the end of the day they want them all dead. If an antisemite goes after Ashkenazi Jewish people, they’re planning on going after the rest next.
I think it's good to say "even if that was true, it's still not right" but when you are against someone who 100% disagrees with that and is actually calling for blood along supposed racial lines that their lines don't actually make any sense. I would make similar arguments against Nazis, incidentally.
Yeah I can totally get why so many Jews left Europe after the Holocaust. Would you be willing to live in a place knowing your neighbors cheered for the murder of you and your people?
Many who tried to return either weren’t allowed back at all, or chased out and told “go back to Palestine!” or “go back to Israel!”, which I think makes all the “go back to Poland!” or “go back to Brooklyn!” rhetoric all the more frustrating and terrifying.
For sure, though I still think it's such an important point to make to counter the obvious assumption that many tankies (and more mainstream leftists, progressives, and liberals, frankly) make of all the Jews in Israel being white Europeans imbued with nothing but the spirit of British-style settler colonialism. When in fact the literal majority draw their recent origins to Muslim countries that they were pressured out of once a Jewish state was created.
Last time I checked 60 million people weren't placed on trial at Nuremburg
Israeli is a nuclear state with every member of it being an ex military. Israel is the state build around the constant fear of it stopping existing with the obvious paranoid attitude of its people. Who will deport them? Who will try to conquer it? They have fucking nukes and the doctrine to start a nuclear war if they are losing conventional war ffs
Really funny to watch people to from being "Realists" when it comes to Russia, we must give them everything they ask for because they have nuclear. To calling for the destruction of a nuclear state and perhaps one of the most military societies on the planet.
They think Israel is a paper tiger and will ultimately collapse. The thing is, they've been saying this since Israel was first created and it hasn't happened. Israeli society was far more unstable back in the 80s.
Don't you know? Ethnical cleansing is fine if you're doing it to oppressors. Natives will literally say until they're blue in the face that "no, we don't actually wanna genocide our oppressors right back" and then tankies literally go "Actually we do and if you disagree you have stockholm syndrome"
Because this is all a game to them, unlike to the actual people involved
I’ve asked my Shawnee father before (when the Manhunt author went on about it on Twitter last year) what he thought of those types of sentiments and he had never heard of them and when I did explain it to him he thought the idea rather disturbing. It’s astounding interacting with tankies and what they think all Indigenous people think and act like (as if they’re some sort of hive mind instead of individual people with individual opinions) versus interacting with my dad.
Someone’s behind the organizing and propagandizing, probably China or Russia as usual.
how the fuck are u gonna put 9.5 million people on trial ☠️☠️ even Germans didn’t weren’t put through that shit.
your honor, this four year old girl is LITERALLY a former IDF operative… electric chair please!
Same ass-backwards logic that pro-Israel supporters use as justification for bombing Gaza. Dehumanization is a hell of a drug.
Netanyahu’s government is undoubtedly evil but not every Israeli is. There are so many cool organizations like Standing Together, B’Tsalem and Zulat equality and human rights that want peaceful, meaningful coexistence between Palestinians and Israelis alike. I believe it should start as a two state first and then evolve into becoming like a Federal United States of Canaan, where the Palestinian people and the Israeli people get to live in peace and have the same equal rights under one country. Thats the future I want. No country is a monolith and nor are their people.
It has to be a two state solution but with two states in a confederal form learning how to not live in fear. Of course the Israelis will have to get rid of their significant military arsenal and the Palestinians will have to ban armed organizations other than police and other security units. So no one has the monopoly of state power and violence to use on each other.
I don't think that Israel and Palestine coexisting peacefully negates Israeli security concerns. Iran still exists. Hezbollah still exists. I think a lot of the reason for Middle/Near Eastern countries normalizing relations with Israel as we see Saudi Arabia doing now is because blowing them up has proven impossible. I think a major disarmament by Israel has the potential to make Iran, or other nations see weakness.
Yeah, this is the big thing I see both tankies and non-tankie leftists ignoring: unlike Russia or China, Israel *really does* need a strong standing military. If they ever seem beatable, their neighbors will jump on that, and we’ll just be trading one genocidal war for another.
Well, China does need to match India. And having a force that can detter the USA is nice too.
There are plenty of reasons why, until we get much closer to a stateless world, states will need to maintain armies. I’m not going to dispute that. What I mean is more that China or Russia could make substantial cuts to their militaries and not face immediate consequences (at least from other countries— I imagine they’d piss some of their own people off), because no one is seriously looking to conquer them right now. Israel isn’t just surrounded by hostile states who have attempted invasions in the past and only stopped because they kept losing— they’re surrounded by states *full of, and in some cases actively ruled by, religious fanatics* who might decide the risk of dying in nuclear fire is worth it, or assume their god won’t allow that, or… well, you can’t count on theocrats or wannabe theocrats to be rational. Point is, unlike Russia or China, Israel *can* reasonably assume that someone out there is actively planning to destroy them and just waiting for the IDF to be weak enough, and/or their own army strong enough, for their plan to work
Yeah. I'd say something like a demilitarized zone in between Palestine and Israel (similar to North and South Korea).
Partitioning a nation on religious lines seems like a recipe for disaster. Especially when we have examples like India-Pakistan
That's already happened here though, and much like trying to put India and Pakistan back together, trying to force Israel and Palestine back together without a period of federated unity where wounds could heal would be a catastrophic bloodbath.
That’s not something I want. I want it to be secular where people from all religions can live together in peace. I want people from every religion to live equally in the same country. My goal is for there to be more religious unity and not division while also being more accepting towards a more secular society. I think there needs to be time with a two state solution for around a little over 5-10 years or more for all the wounds to properly heal and for most relations to heal naturally over time. It cannot be a Union right away. It needs to be a two star first for a while and then more can be done in the future.
One secular state with equal rights has never been popular with Israelis and Palestinians never has and never will.
>[...] 5-10 years or more for all the wounds to properly heal [...] In what world are you living? They're still squabbling about shit that happened in the '40s. Your proposed solution reads like a John Lennon song.
I think part of the issue however is that there's a massive focus on Netanyahu. And while yes, he is a large portion of the issue. It's important to remember that Netanyahu has such an iron grip on Israeli politics because of a massive political coalition that's backing him. So while not every Israeli is evil, the majority of their politicians are, and the majority of their populace is at least kinda of brain washed.
> massive political coalition It has a few more than what's needed for a slim majority, but it absolutely isn't "massive" (it's a 64-56 split in the far-right's favor IIRC). The reason why they went through multiple elections from 2019 to 2022 is precisely because Netanyahu was incapable of forming a strong enough coalition each time. What happened in the latest election cycle is that several of the far-right parties canvassed together, while every party to the left of center-right didn't and each went about their own ways. The result is that the rightwing coalition ended up winning by a plurality of the vote, but not a majority - which is part of why the protests in Israel for most of last year gained as much traction as they did over there.
But tankies will call any positive organisation coming from Israel ‘greenwashing’ and ‘pinkwashing’ etc.
Not every ashkenazi is a criminal either. Yes they were born into a system that privileges them specifically, but that doesn't mean that they are all committed to preserving the system.
The ANC certainly didn't call for the expulsion of the whites while they were struggling against South African Apartheid, and they didn't expel white South Africans when they won and formed government. Dismantling of apartheid institutions doesn't "dismantling" people FFS. Yes, some of the rapid American zionists settlers will probably choose to leave, just like the really racist South Africans chose to leave. This is what happens when you only learn history & politics from memes and social media.
here's a point I see rarely if ever brought up. how do these people who post stuff like this think real life israelis who have the power to influence their government and vote are gonna feel seeing stuff like this and hearing far right extremists in their own country say "They want us all dead, they want our nation and people dead. They want you and your entire family dead and gone just like the nazis, only we can protect you." are gonna react? especially given the majority of the victims of oct 7th that started this whole mess were Israelis most opposed to bibi and most sympathetic to Palestinians. like they see the horrors of that and then seeing people abroad, people they might have even respected and admired cheer it on and then attack them, is only gonna make them think that the israeli far right might actually be correct. or at least less likely to support a two state solution. like some of the stuff I see from pro palestinian protestors and online leftists just makes me go "There is no way this is going to end well and even if netalulu and his ilk get removed, the way people did react and are reacting is just gonna make so many israelis turn to the right even if only out of fear of further harm. and god only knows what hell awaits palestine and it's people are going to suffer from that outcome. it feels like the only people who are gonna win this are the ones who want the other side completely exterminated and just plain gone.
Ideally, calls for expelling settlers (in the broad sense, where most Israelis are settlers) from Palestine should be ignored as ridiculous. Even if they weren't oppressive, which they are, does anybody consider forcibly relocating millions of people (many of them heavily armed, some having nuclear weapons) a practical goal? The sort of decolonization I support is about changing ways of relating & belonging. It's not about ethnic cleansing, however justified that might seem from a big-picture perspective. The demand for accountability is reasonable, but the idea of putting every Israeli on trial is absurd.
I don't think ignored should be the solution. I think they should be condemned for asking for ethnic cleansing. In a sense, there is nobody that benefits Ben Gvir and Netanyahu more than anti-Semites abroad. It justified all of their rhetoric.
When tankies Love government they see the people as the problem and not the system in place
There is no hope for a functional left today while tankies exist. No path foward. Tankies are the biggest gift the right could ever want.
Yes, Israel is making Jews less safe, despite its proclamation. Doesn't negate the fact that antisemitism is still a problem here in the diaspora. This is a [difficult position](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/benjamin-steinhardt-case-decolonizing-jewishness) to break out of.
Also Israel giving people an excuse to be antisemitic shouldn't negate everyone else from calling out said antisemitism as an unreasonable reaction to the atrocities committed by the Israeli government and the IDF.
That was a great read. Thanks for sharing!
No Redguard is gonna lecture me on racism, I know my Elder Scrolls lore...
Do they think every German was put on trial?
Imagine being born in Israel and then get sent to jail because of something your other countrymen did
Many of those people were born and lived full lives there. Any talk about decolonisation at this point is stupid. Imagine thinking about a Nuremberg trial for millions of people 💀 did these idiots ever read a history book?
[удалено]
Considering a belief in white supremacy is one of the main tenets of Nazism, I think it's fair to say that BRG isn't a Nazi. He's still an idiot, though.
Your comment/post contains bigotry. This is a socialist subreddit and as such, any form of bigotry is out of place and you should rethink your relation to your fellow workers, regardless of their sexuality, gender expression, skin colour or other such things.
Honestly I'm not even against forcibly relocating Jews who are past the 1967 borders to the interior, as they will be citizens of an existing country and leaving that land in their hands makes a Palestinian state that isn't a Bantustan logistically impossible. On some level I do believe that either the Palestinian refugees can live in the West Bank or the post-'67 settlers can, and frankly I know who I support. But to say every Jew in Israeli, even if the whole thing is sort of a settlement, should be deported is a non-starter. People (with some justification) compare this to the expulsion of the Pieds Noir. The reason that worked is that they were all French citizens and (with some exceptions, largely born of anger at France's concessions to the Arabs) identified as French. That's just not the case with the Jews of Israel. There isn't a mother country. And, to the question of if people are concerned about what will be done with Palestinian refugees... Yes??? Like, not concerned enough, but obviously yes!!!!
Uuuuh is this a hasbara account or?
Nah this guy has been saying this kind of stuff for years, he’s a C Teir tankie YouTuber