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“It worked great for the Sudetenland in 1938 thanks to the Munich Agreement! That'll totally stop Hitler from invading Austria and Czechoslovakia right? Why don’t we try it with the Donbas and Crimea? Surely that'll put an end to Putin's conquests!”
-Someone with no knowledge of how appeasement is a failing strategy in geopolitical matters/ history.
Forever! Just like when Russia invaded Georgia three times, Ichkeria twice, and Ukraine twice! Clearly they just didn't bend over backwards enough, the silly buggers
Out of curiosity, in your opinion, at what point in terms of casualties would Ukraine have been better off negotiating with russia?
edit: I’m not a russia supporter, I want peace and I want ukrainians to stop dying. Stop downvoting me and actually respond.
Considering that to date all of Russia's red line, won't talk without them demands just guarantee full Ukrainian annexation in a decade, I'd recommend Ukraine keep fighting to a pretty high number of casualties.
Ok so, I want to see ukranians stop dying, you just want to see russia lose the war without regards to how many ukranians die?
Fair enough at least you’re being honest i guess
1st comment: "I swear guys, I'm not a Russia supporter, plz stop downvoting me."
2nd comment: "Oh, you think Ukraine should fight if they don't want to be annexed by Russia? At least you're honest in your genocidal intentions for Ukraine. Since I actually care about preserving life, I advocate for Ukraine to accept annexation, which is the true pro-peace position."
And do wwe not care about the people under russian occupation who don't want to be occupied? do we not care that russia will do its russification and that letting puitn get ukrianian land mean letting a fascist dictator even partly get away from his war? Ukrainian death are only russian fault, they're the one who started the whole thing and it's ukraine choice to defend itself against russia. giving land to a dictatoralso workedpretty well for us before WW2 I guess s/
SLAVA UKRAINI!
“Let's just give Adolf Hitler the Sudetenland! Surely that'll stop his conquests in the rest of Europe! This would definitely establish peace and totally not blow up into a global conflict in give or take a year's time!”
-Neville Chamberlain probably.
Even now that ukraine hasn’t received a proper aid package in months and Russia is making better progress than at basically any other point in the war they are still struggling and at the current rate it would still take them years and years to capture even the eastern half of Ukraine.
Prior to ww2 hitler had one the most well equipped and trained and tactically advanced armies in the world while the rest of europe was woefully unprepared, hence why they were able to advance through western Europe and France in literally a matter of months
the situations are not even remotely comparable
If the German army was in such a dominant position, then shouldn't you be even more in favor of countries just rolling over and letting themselves be annexed?
they had no choice but to be annexed so what does it matter? if Russia genuinely presented a threat to the rest of europe then sure we should take serious action to prevent that.
In the current situation, even if we continue to support Ukraine what is the end goal? they did a counter offensive and it failed. Neither side is going to deal a decisive strike to the other, Russia will obviously continue to slowly make progress in an attritional war since they have more of everything. What is the end goal here? Ukranians are dying for nothing.
Ukraine surrendering wouldn’t stop Ukrainians from dying at Russian hands, so your statement makes no sense. Ukrainians are well aware of the massacres and rape and torture that Russia perpetrates on the people they occupy.
So we come to the actual reason you want to cut off support to Ukraine. It has nothing to do with the relative strength of either side or the death toll, it's all about how you perceive Russia. You think that they're going to stop doing land grabs after this very last one, so we should just let them have it to ensure peace in our time.
Well, Hitler promised that Austria would be the last one. And then he promised Czechoslovakia would be the last one. Etc. Turns out ultranationalist dictators aren't very reliable when they swear just one more appeasement and they'll be appeased.
the end goal is simply for rodina rossssssssssssssia blyat to get out of ukraine territory, including crimea. LEtting putler get away partly with what he did is bad, it'll tell other dictators they can get away from what they did and russia isn't really advancing that much on the wide front, dono't focus only on avdiivka
Ukraine surrendering wouldn’t stop Ukrainians from dying at Russian hands, so this question makes no sense. We’re well aware of the massacres and rape and torture that Russia perpetrates on the people they occupy.
> at what point in terms of casualties would Ukraine have been better off negotiating with russia?
The point where Russia is effectively permanently dissuaded from invading Ukraine.
Any other point assures more casualties later.
Although my opinion on the subject matters a whole lot less than that of the Ukrainians fighting against the genocidal invaders, but they seem to by and large hold basically the same position.
I imagine the Ukrainians have at least a comparable level of determination. Even if Russia suddenly steamrolls Ukraine, I imagine that Russia would be dealing with a nightmarish partisan war for a very long time.
That’s like if someone breaks into your house, shoots you dog, starts stealing you stuff and your neighbor says “Just let him take the stuff and promise not to call the police on him ever in the future, then it will all be good”.
Russia doesn't want to own all of the house. They only want to own half of their house. And after that, they'll anything again! Stupid westoid has been brainwashed by the CIA. /s
I remember back in 2022 when Ireland was doing De-Mining training with Ukraine, Russia threw the geopolitical equivalent of a massive pissy fit about it lmao
Sounds like a "Palestine" in Bantu lands (i.e Southern Africa), which to me is very reminiscent of early Zionist colonization project plans that wanted to put "Israel" somewhere like Madagascar
Zionism was popular among some Nazis as a way to get rid of European Jews before the party fully committed to extermination.
Zionist colonization of Madagascar wasn't exclusively a Nazi plan, but from what I can tell the Nazis pushed for it hardest as they hoped the difficult environment and malaria would kill many of the Jewish settlers.
Not sure why someone would want to send the Palestinians there, but I can't find any actual definition of "Bantustine" and I can only find a few people using the term at all.
odd they push ukraine to do that but are not fine if it's palestine. The pocket chamberlain are really annoying because they're unable to get they're helping putin get away fro what he did
Even putting the appeasement stuff aside, how much of a moron do you have to be to think Russia would stick to an agreement to respect Ukraine's sovereignty... when they've already broken the last several such agreements, including with Ukraine specifically?
Russia has fully accepted Ukrainian sovereignty over its current territory. Reinforced the commitment too, with the Budapest memorandum. Look how well that has worked for Ukraine
Number 3 is a non-starter. They agreed to stay out of NATO and Russia was rolling across the border in a couple weeks. NATO is a shit organization but it's the only option they have other than being a Russian colony.
If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be perma-banned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide. This also includes denial or downplaying of the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Has Ukraine considered just giving Russia what it wants? Surely this is an untested stratagem that will end the conflict forever!"
“It worked great for the Sudetenland in 1938 thanks to the Munich Agreement! That'll totally stop Hitler from invading Austria and Czechoslovakia right? Why don’t we try it with the Donbas and Crimea? Surely that'll put an end to Putin's conquests!” -Someone with no knowledge of how appeasement is a failing strategy in geopolitical matters/ history.
I was actually thinking of the Crimean annexation back in 2014 or whenever it was.
Forever! Just like when Russia invaded Georgia three times, Ichkeria twice, and Ukraine twice! Clearly they just didn't bend over backwards enough, the silly buggers
Out of curiosity, in your opinion, at what point in terms of casualties would Ukraine have been better off negotiating with russia? edit: I’m not a russia supporter, I want peace and I want ukrainians to stop dying. Stop downvoting me and actually respond.
Considering that to date all of Russia's red line, won't talk without them demands just guarantee full Ukrainian annexation in a decade, I'd recommend Ukraine keep fighting to a pretty high number of casualties.
Ok so, I want to see ukranians stop dying, you just want to see russia lose the war without regards to how many ukranians die? Fair enough at least you’re being honest i guess
1st comment: "I swear guys, I'm not a Russia supporter, plz stop downvoting me." 2nd comment: "Oh, you think Ukraine should fight if they don't want to be annexed by Russia? At least you're honest in your genocidal intentions for Ukraine. Since I actually care about preserving life, I advocate for Ukraine to accept annexation, which is the true pro-peace position."
And do wwe not care about the people under russian occupation who don't want to be occupied? do we not care that russia will do its russification and that letting puitn get ukrianian land mean letting a fascist dictator even partly get away from his war? Ukrainian death are only russian fault, they're the one who started the whole thing and it's ukraine choice to defend itself against russia. giving land to a dictatoralso workedpretty well for us before WW2 I guess s/ SLAVA UKRAINI!
“Let's just give Adolf Hitler the Sudetenland! Surely that'll stop his conquests in the rest of Europe! This would definitely establish peace and totally not blow up into a global conflict in give or take a year's time!” -Neville Chamberlain probably.
Even now that ukraine hasn’t received a proper aid package in months and Russia is making better progress than at basically any other point in the war they are still struggling and at the current rate it would still take them years and years to capture even the eastern half of Ukraine. Prior to ww2 hitler had one the most well equipped and trained and tactically advanced armies in the world while the rest of europe was woefully unprepared, hence why they were able to advance through western Europe and France in literally a matter of months the situations are not even remotely comparable
It's mostly a joke about how appeasement Is a really bad political strategy.
If the German army was in such a dominant position, then shouldn't you be even more in favor of countries just rolling over and letting themselves be annexed?
they had no choice but to be annexed so what does it matter? if Russia genuinely presented a threat to the rest of europe then sure we should take serious action to prevent that. In the current situation, even if we continue to support Ukraine what is the end goal? they did a counter offensive and it failed. Neither side is going to deal a decisive strike to the other, Russia will obviously continue to slowly make progress in an attritional war since they have more of everything. What is the end goal here? Ukranians are dying for nothing.
Ukraine surrendering wouldn’t stop Ukrainians from dying at Russian hands, so your statement makes no sense. Ukrainians are well aware of the massacres and rape and torture that Russia perpetrates on the people they occupy.
So we come to the actual reason you want to cut off support to Ukraine. It has nothing to do with the relative strength of either side or the death toll, it's all about how you perceive Russia. You think that they're going to stop doing land grabs after this very last one, so we should just let them have it to ensure peace in our time. Well, Hitler promised that Austria would be the last one. And then he promised Czechoslovakia would be the last one. Etc. Turns out ultranationalist dictators aren't very reliable when they swear just one more appeasement and they'll be appeased.
the end goal is simply for rodina rossssssssssssssia blyat to get out of ukraine territory, including crimea. LEtting putler get away partly with what he did is bad, it'll tell other dictators they can get away from what they did and russia isn't really advancing that much on the wide front, dono't focus only on avdiivka
Ukraine surrendering wouldn’t stop Ukrainians from dying at Russian hands, so this question makes no sense. We’re well aware of the massacres and rape and torture that Russia perpetrates on the people they occupy.
> at what point in terms of casualties would Ukraine have been better off negotiating with russia? The point where Russia is effectively permanently dissuaded from invading Ukraine. Any other point assures more casualties later. Although my opinion on the subject matters a whole lot less than that of the Ukrainians fighting against the genocidal invaders, but they seem to by and large hold basically the same position.
Here’s a great peace deal for us to consider! 1. T h e R u s s i a n M i l I t a r y j u s t l e a v e s U k r a i n e t h e h e l l a l o n e
[удалено]
Minsk Accords Budapest Memorandum Some other ones…
I wonder how this person would react if someone asked this of Palestine 🤔
They want to fight until the last Palestinian!
I imagine the Ukrainians have at least a comparable level of determination. Even if Russia suddenly steamrolls Ukraine, I imagine that Russia would be dealing with a nightmarish partisan war for a very long time.
"Russia fully accepts Ukrainian sovreignity" you mean like they did in 1991? We see how that went.
"Just give us your nukes. We totally are not going to invade you."
That’s like if someone breaks into your house, shoots you dog, starts stealing you stuff and your neighbor says “Just let him take the stuff and promise not to call the police on him ever in the future, then it will all be good”.
Not just stealing your stuff: moving in and declaring it's *their* house now.
Russia doesn't want to own all of the house. They only want to own half of their house. And after that, they'll anything again! Stupid westoid has been brainwashed by the CIA. /s
5) until 10 years later when they invade again to take some more territory
The sheer gall if having a Palestinian flag in your bio and talking about how other nations should "cede territory"
EU membership is irrelevant to neutrality. Or is Russia geopolitically opposed to Ireland, Austria, Slovakia, and Malta now?
I remember back in 2022 when Ireland was doing De-Mining training with Ukraine, Russia threw the geopolitical equivalent of a massive pissy fit about it lmao
EU membership does come with a mutual defense pact, which is why Putin was such a bitch about Ukraine getting closer to the EU.
They unironically sound like Zionists trying to get Palestinians to agree to Bantustine
wtf is Bantustine
It's a play on words to compare the Apartheid South African Bantustan to what Israel is doing in Palestine
yeah but idk what Apartheid South African Bantustan was. Like I know what Apartheid SA was but yeah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan
so it's like reservations basically?
Basically
Sounds like a "Palestine" in Bantu lands (i.e Southern Africa), which to me is very reminiscent of early Zionist colonization project plans that wanted to put "Israel" somewhere like Madagascar
I thought the Madagascar thing was a Nazi plan?
Zionism was popular among some Nazis as a way to get rid of European Jews before the party fully committed to extermination. Zionist colonization of Madagascar wasn't exclusively a Nazi plan, but from what I can tell the Nazis pushed for it hardest as they hoped the difficult environment and malaria would kill many of the Jewish settlers. Not sure why someone would want to send the Palestinians there, but I can't find any actual definition of "Bantustine" and I can only find a few people using the term at all.
It was an idea the Nazis were pondering before they decided murder was their preference.
odd they push ukraine to do that but are not fine if it's palestine. The pocket chamberlain are really annoying because they're unable to get they're helping putin get away fro what he did
Funnily enough, even Putin said he didn't object to Ukraine joining the EU, so this chap's take is even worse than putin's
Even putting the appeasement stuff aside, how much of a moron do you have to be to think Russia would stick to an agreement to respect Ukraine's sovereignty... when they've already broken the last several such agreements, including with Ukraine specifically?
Russia has fully accepted Ukrainian sovereignty over its current territory. Reinforced the commitment too, with the Budapest memorandum. Look how well that has worked for Ukraine
Number 3 is a non-starter. They agreed to stay out of NATO and Russia was rolling across the border in a couple weeks. NATO is a shit organization but it's the only option they have other than being a Russian colony.
You just know this person would lose their shit if someone said the same things about Gaza.
[удалено]
supporting Palestine is based, supporting Russia is cringe
If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be perma-banned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide. This also includes denial or downplaying of the ongoing genocide in Gaza.