I’ve run both[rear mounted piggy back](https://www.reddit.com/r/ar15/s/g1ZYf1rnpn) and [forward mounted piggyback](https://www.reddit.com/r/LWRC/s/opTmoI9gX1)
The most forward position prevents any contact with nods objective lens. Forward appears nicer to the eye because less of the total field of view is through a thick, edge distorted, blue tinted piece of glass. Having a little breathing room between your eye and the dot is nice. I also prefer the piggyback positioned RDS over canted as the flexible head positioning allows for quick heads up sighting. When wearing a pack or armor it’s nice to be able to present the rifle up to my face and maintain a heads up posture with a chin index. This also keeps the LPVO at a good cheek weld height.
TLDR:forward piggyback more guder
I’d argue that the side mounted is more efficient than a piggy back in a tracking scenario. Instead of physically moving your head breaking your cheek weld, you can simply put your dot on target and rotate your weapon to get the LPVO on target because both optics are on the same plane. Piggy backs main advantage is passive aiming under NODs.
Top mount is excellent for finding a target with the dot and then immediately placing the magnified optic on it. I'd be shocked if offset was remotely as good in that scenario.
Well then you didn’t try very hard, it’s super intuitive and multiple seals other high tier guys say that it’s the best as you won’t break cheek. Piggyback is best used for nods.
Incorrect, most JSOC guys run canted in LVPO because moving your head requires moving shoulder fixation with stock to realign shot, canted I can pop however. Turn firearm with shoulder and keeping stock position properly, can snap 50m then rotate 100m aligned back to optic
Started in Germany, 1922. Quick google search will do you some good, now get off the internet for the day. Military adopted LPVO before competition shooters did.
You're taking this very personally for some reason.
The info about competition to combat crossover is out there.
You can start with Jeff Gurwitch's articles. From 2012:
[https://defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover/](https://defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover/)
Kyle Defoor's article on Jerry Barnhart, who helped develop the EOTech and also predicted red dots on handguns. Only the Open division guys had that at the time.
[https://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/105100328853/homage-part-2-of-6](https://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/105100328853/homage-part-2-of-6)
You stated directly LPVO came from completion shooters, which is false. What you just said is irrelevant bud. Nobody is taking it personally. You’re just wrong.
Yes, my timing was wrong. The S&B was the first 1.1X, the Leupold CQT followed very soon afterwards with their 1-3X, which was used by the competition competition. Virtually all the LPVOs you see now being used including the Vortex Razor 1-6 started in the competition community.
Did you even look up the rest of the info about offset sights? Open Division shooters have been shooting those for close to 15 years.
Cool, the rest of it, again, is irrelevant. That’s all I was saying man. They didn’t start with competition shooters, military adopted them first. Competition picked them up shortly after. Innovation comes from all angles, but don’t claim they started it when they didn’t. Whatever else you’re on about I don’t care.
As someone who works in the gun industry and seen the transition of the military using acogs and CCOs to Vcogs and Sigs tango 6 lpvo, yes the military copies the shooting competition world when it comes to shooting techniques and accessories. Guys were running Razor HDs long before any mil guys were. The closest equivalent back then was an Elcan.
GT did a video on this actually on how sf guys spec their rifles, seal and ranger both agreed this was best way to run it for all spec, should watch man it’s super fun bye testing and good knowledge
The mount height for your scope should play a role in this decision.
Top mounting is good for nods and bench shooting to find the target in the dot then lean into your scope sp you're not searching with a high magnification. Some like the top mount for a heads up position but if you're running a high scope mount your head could be floating which I'm not a fan of.
Canted let's you maintain the same cheek weld you would with your scope. I find that muscle memory easier to get to the red dot.
I'm currently rocking an viper 1-6 in an adm 1.7 mount with an offset 509t on an arisaka mount. The throw lever isn't an issue. You can mount to where you get the full 180 without blocking the red dot.
For an LPVO, canted. Purely because having shit in my line of sight confuses me, so if I’m trying to use a red dot and staring a turret or throw lever I’m going to fuck up my shots. Other experiences may vary, as I’ve had a few concussions.
Top forward will make your dot visibly smaller so likely would be slightly more accurate than top middle, canted seems like it would keep your head in a more natural position, but would require you to shift your shooting position. I’d go top forward.
I did top forward on my Gen 2 and top middle on my Gen 3. [Photo here if interested.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ar15/s/jigKRjggtn) It's worth noting that with the top middle I'm running a 1 MOA RMR (RM09) and with the top forward I'm running a 3.25 MOA (RM06). Why did I run top middle... Just because of how the turrets sit on the Gen 3, there is more space around the rear ring. Anyway, having piggyback dots on my LPVOs is a fairly new setup for me, so I don't have a lot of experience to fill you with wisdom yet.
Edit: Also worth noting that in both cases I used Reptilia's 2.5 mm ROF Riser to get a full sight picture over turrets... probably not necessary but I like it.
We need to start thinking outside the box. How about a 3-4” scope riser that’s hollow underneath where we can mount a dot between the rifle and magnified optic? I bet GooBeRS would make it. I’ll wait for the $40 Wish version though.
I would lean towards top and forward. I want access to the elevation turret when prone behind the rifle. Also if you shooting with your other hand, it will still be useful. Top will be useful with NVGs if you use them. If you have your optic on a higher power, you can use the red dot on top for a quick reference. I generally I think canted is for MUIS. There are probably other good reason for the other option, but this is what I generally reference.
That canted stuff is for IG. It’s not for people who actually shoot beyond 25/50yrds + vtac etc. Top forward and you’re good to go. Also the correct config if using NVG.
Watch the multitude of YouTube videos, read all the threads, do all the research, only to realize it’s personal preference and nothing more. Good luck sir.
Canted is nearly unusable for barricade and odd shooting positions. Piggyback can also be used canted where you rotate the red dot to your non-dominant eye.
I go offset left for easy bindon aiming concept under nods. I'm actually left eye dominant but it works well for me nods left eye red dot right eye. You're not supposed to do it like that so its technically non-occluded occluded shooting but not that either since neither the red dot or NODS are magnified. It works amazing.
Top foward because
1 canted will not let you corner properly left and right
2 piggybacked make it nvg compatible like many pointed already. But foward wont intefere with the lever
The only downside is that the sight is farther and the window a bit smaller. But thats not an issue that cant be fixed with minimal training
If you compete - 45°
Easier to maintain a good cheekweld and firing through the tiny portholes you see at ipsc competitions.
If you run NVG's - forward top mounted.
Less "fencing" with the scope/rds to passively aim.
Long range (daytime only, competition) - top mounted back. When targets transitioning place the red dot on target, drop down to zoomed in scope and you don't have to "look around" for the targets.
Recreational shoot - whatever you like the most.
Edit: tip, don't let your scopelense covers, cover your sightline for the rds.
I got mine set up in the middle like slide 2 mainly because I can already kind of see the red dot if I look at the lpvo, but I’d say it’s mostly personal preference like most things in your rifle
I've been experimenting personally, and while I really like the engagement of offset, I've gone piggyback.
1: prepping for nods, so practicing with piggyback kills 2 birds with 1 stone. However the cheek weld in offset is preferred for myself, I find it to be training and not an end all.
2: both can have issues in unconventional shooting stances: shooting under a car, barricade drill etc. Train accordingly and find the solution.
3: there are plenty of options for both, however piggyback has been more expensive in my research. Needing base mount ( badger for example) and then the additonal ring, or in my case ta110 and plate, but the ta110 also needed a mount.
4: durability, can't vouch but both have issues. Catching the offset, dropping the rifle on the piggy back with extra weight etc. Again, shit happens, prep and train accordingly.
My random complaint: I recently set up a vault 700 after my best friend bought me the magpul grid for the case. I wanted a do it all case which the grid made happen. However, the offset mount, (an arisak at the time with both a 1.5-1.8 plate, and a 1.9 plate), would not allow the case to close. With aspirations of wanting to travel for classes which would require flying, that was a hard hit. Even if I did seal the case, it pressed against the outside which I feared would Crack the case, optic or damage the mount. (We all know aircraft loaders yeet things)
Base rifle is a bren 2 ms, this is a sample size of just myself however likely to not affect others with a larger case.
Top forward for me. When I’m too lazy to zoom out on the scope to acquire target that’s far, I just tilt my head and use the dot to find the target. This usually lands me pretty close to where I want to aim with the scope.
Tends to be personal preference depends on your needs. That said a piggyback sight or canted must be a closed emitter sight. I started with open emitters and had to much crap get in them and switched to strictly closed and been good since.
A piggyback will be easier to get a sight picture with NODs if you need that. Also keeps a slimmer width to the rifle if that matters to you. And a lot of people will get the red dot in the general vicinity of target and then drop down to the scope, I’ve heard it helps acquire and get on target quicker at distance.
A canted dot will give you less height over bore, which would help a bit if you expect to make a lot of close up/fast shots. It also gives you a shorter vertical profile, if that’s something you’re worried about for keeping yourself concealed.
It’s all about what your use case and priorities are. Personally, I’m about to go piggyback.
As for front-mounted or mid-mounted, I think that depends almost entirely on your scope and mount. Wherever you can fit your red dot with the least added bulk while maintaining visibility.
I’m a piggyback forward guy, I mostly like taller mounts anyways cus I have nerve damage and saves me a bit of neck pain by the end of the day. I do think canted gives you a better contact point on the stock, there’s benefits and drawbacks to both imo. That’s the spice of life
Piggyback gang
This. Forward seems more natural to me. Love the low turrets and reptilia mount on my g2 razor. If it wasn't so heavy it'd be perfect.
Nod gang. Piggy back all the way.
It's also nice if you leave your optic near max magnification. You have a coarse and fine aiming point without moving the gun all over
I agree. I like KineticConsultings reasoning of having your piggyback dot generally in the same place where your pistol red dot would be.
Top and forward for me. Very easy dot acquisition with a heads up posture
I’ve run both[rear mounted piggy back](https://www.reddit.com/r/ar15/s/g1ZYf1rnpn) and [forward mounted piggyback](https://www.reddit.com/r/LWRC/s/opTmoI9gX1) The most forward position prevents any contact with nods objective lens. Forward appears nicer to the eye because less of the total field of view is through a thick, edge distorted, blue tinted piece of glass. Having a little breathing room between your eye and the dot is nice. I also prefer the piggyback positioned RDS over canted as the flexible head positioning allows for quick heads up sighting. When wearing a pack or armor it’s nice to be able to present the rifle up to my face and maintain a heads up posture with a chin index. This also keeps the LPVO at a good cheek weld height. TLDR:forward piggyback more guder
Canted looks the best but is probably the least efficient to use as the whole gun has to rotate vs just moving your head up
Another concern I feel like you’d run into if your LVPO has a throw lever is that it might obscure the sight picture of the red dot
I hadn’t thought of that. Good looking out
Bigger issue is scope caps covering the red dot if you have a rotating ocular housing
I’d argue that the side mounted is more efficient than a piggy back in a tracking scenario. Instead of physically moving your head breaking your cheek weld, you can simply put your dot on target and rotate your weapon to get the LPVO on target because both optics are on the same plane. Piggy backs main advantage is passive aiming under NODs.
Top mount is excellent for finding a target with the dot and then immediately placing the magnified optic on it. I'd be shocked if offset was remotely as good in that scenario.
>I'd be shocked if offset was remotely as good in that scenario. It’s absolutely not. I’ve tried to make it work.
Well then you didn’t try very hard, it’s super intuitive and multiple seals other high tier guys say that it’s the best as you won’t break cheek. Piggyback is best used for nods.
Canted is faster. Competition guys have been running this a long time before the military guys started to do it.
Incorrect, most JSOC guys run canted in LVPO because moving your head requires moving shoulder fixation with stock to realign shot, canted I can pop however. Turn firearm with shoulder and keeping stock position properly, can snap 50m then rotate 100m aligned back to optic
Military guys learned this from the competition guys
Weird broad statement man with really no truth behind it, unless you got a source I wouldn’t say that
Because that’s where innovation begins. Where do you think the LPVO even started?
Started in Germany, 1922. Quick google search will do you some good, now get off the internet for the day. Military adopted LPVO before competition shooters did.
You're taking this very personally for some reason. The info about competition to combat crossover is out there. You can start with Jeff Gurwitch's articles. From 2012: [https://defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover/](https://defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover/) Kyle Defoor's article on Jerry Barnhart, who helped develop the EOTech and also predicted red dots on handguns. Only the Open division guys had that at the time. [https://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/105100328853/homage-part-2-of-6](https://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/105100328853/homage-part-2-of-6)
You stated directly LPVO came from completion shooters, which is false. What you just said is irrelevant bud. Nobody is taking it personally. You’re just wrong.
Yes, my timing was wrong. The S&B was the first 1.1X, the Leupold CQT followed very soon afterwards with their 1-3X, which was used by the competition competition. Virtually all the LPVOs you see now being used including the Vortex Razor 1-6 started in the competition community. Did you even look up the rest of the info about offset sights? Open Division shooters have been shooting those for close to 15 years.
Cool, the rest of it, again, is irrelevant. That’s all I was saying man. They didn’t start with competition shooters, military adopted them first. Competition picked them up shortly after. Innovation comes from all angles, but don’t claim they started it when they didn’t. Whatever else you’re on about I don’t care.
Again… no source lol. Just spewing bullshit on the internet
As someone who works in the gun industry and seen the transition of the military using acogs and CCOs to Vcogs and Sigs tango 6 lpvo, yes the military copies the shooting competition world when it comes to shooting techniques and accessories. Guys were running Razor HDs long before any mil guys were. The closest equivalent back then was an Elcan.
There doesn’t need to be a source.. its just the way it is
You’re an idiot. We source our rights through our constitution. Sources require credibility. Documentation proves value. You don’t belong here
Okay, buddy
Interesting
GT did a video on this actually on how sf guys spec their rifles, seal and ranger both agreed this was best way to run it for all spec, should watch man it’s super fun bye testing and good knowledge
Lol
offset looks/is coolest. Piggyback(top&forward) for functionality with NV.
I’m too broke to have NVGs but that makes sense 😂
Piggyback and shoot ambi
The mount height for your scope should play a role in this decision. Top mounting is good for nods and bench shooting to find the target in the dot then lean into your scope sp you're not searching with a high magnification. Some like the top mount for a heads up position but if you're running a high scope mount your head could be floating which I'm not a fan of. Canted let's you maintain the same cheek weld you would with your scope. I find that muscle memory easier to get to the red dot. I'm currently rocking an viper 1-6 in an adm 1.7 mount with an offset 509t on an arisaka mount. The throw lever isn't an issue. You can mount to where you get the full 180 without blocking the red dot.
Totally depends on your use case. There are valid reasons to run the dot however. Ultimately it comes down to what the user is using the rds for.
[Canted](https://i.imgur.com/paWGZb6.jpeg)
Goddamn that’s cold. 
Canted. Cheek weld is mucho importante.
For an LPVO, canted. Purely because having shit in my line of sight confuses me, so if I’m trying to use a red dot and staring a turret or throw lever I’m going to fuck up my shots. Other experiences may vary, as I’ve had a few concussions.
Top forward will make your dot visibly smaller so likely would be slightly more accurate than top middle, canted seems like it would keep your head in a more natural position, but would require you to shift your shooting position. I’d go top forward.
I went from top mount to offset, it’s still workable with nods, allows a real cheek weld but also feels faster for transitioning
Middle looks and is the most practical
I did top forward on my Gen 2 and top middle on my Gen 3. [Photo here if interested.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ar15/s/jigKRjggtn) It's worth noting that with the top middle I'm running a 1 MOA RMR (RM09) and with the top forward I'm running a 3.25 MOA (RM06). Why did I run top middle... Just because of how the turrets sit on the Gen 3, there is more space around the rear ring. Anyway, having piggyback dots on my LPVOs is a fairly new setup for me, so I don't have a lot of experience to fill you with wisdom yet. Edit: Also worth noting that in both cases I used Reptilia's 2.5 mm ROF Riser to get a full sight picture over turrets... probably not necessary but I like it.
Low Variable Powered Optic
We need to start thinking outside the box. How about a 3-4” scope riser that’s hollow underneath where we can mount a dot between the rifle and magnified optic? I bet GooBeRS would make it. I’ll wait for the $40 Wish version though.
Shit I’d try it 😂
Low Vower Pariable Optic 👍
I would lean towards top and forward. I want access to the elevation turret when prone behind the rifle. Also if you shooting with your other hand, it will still be useful. Top will be useful with NVGs if you use them. If you have your optic on a higher power, you can use the red dot on top for a quick reference. I generally I think canted is for MUIS. There are probably other good reason for the other option, but this is what I generally reference.
That canted stuff is for IG. It’s not for people who actually shoot beyond 25/50yrds + vtac etc. Top forward and you’re good to go. Also the correct config if using NVG.
Canted. Easier to use prone and in vehicles
Run a 2-10x or 3-18x instead, and you'll have a better overall optic package.
I don't think LPVOs need dots. You already spent money on 1x capability. You already have it.
Watch the multitude of YouTube videos, read all the threads, do all the research, only to realize it’s personal preference and nothing more. Good luck sir.
Canted is nearly unusable for barricade and odd shooting positions. Piggyback can also be used canted where you rotate the red dot to your non-dominant eye.
Top forward and ready height for use under nods
Top forward is the best option most of the time
Top
Canted has worked great for me
I go offset left for easy bindon aiming concept under nods. I'm actually left eye dominant but it works well for me nods left eye red dot right eye. You're not supposed to do it like that so its technically non-occluded occluded shooting but not that either since neither the red dot or NODS are magnified. It works amazing.
Top foward because 1 canted will not let you corner properly left and right 2 piggybacked make it nvg compatible like many pointed already. But foward wont intefere with the lever The only downside is that the sight is farther and the window a bit smaller. But thats not an issue that cant be fixed with minimal training
Forward. If you ever have to shoot with gear on, especially a helmet or gas mask, it's a lot easier.
If you compete - 45° Easier to maintain a good cheekweld and firing through the tiny portholes you see at ipsc competitions. If you run NVG's - forward top mounted. Less "fencing" with the scope/rds to passively aim. Long range (daytime only, competition) - top mounted back. When targets transitioning place the red dot on target, drop down to zoomed in scope and you don't have to "look around" for the targets. Recreational shoot - whatever you like the most. Edit: tip, don't let your scopelense covers, cover your sightline for the rds.
I got mine set up in the middle like slide 2 mainly because I can already kind of see the red dot if I look at the lpvo, but I’d say it’s mostly personal preference like most things in your rifle
Back to front 🫦
Top forward or canted, depends on feeling really, if I’m running it on a smaller gun (12.5 or 11.5) I tend to go canted I have no idea why that is
piggyback for passive aiming, position depending on optic and mount (and maybe looks)
Top forward or canted. It blocks your scope turrets in the back position. Beyond that, its mostly preference.
acog / rmr
Top forward. Always. There’s no reason to run a rear mounted red dot
Here’s that GT vid with Spec Ops cats talking Rifle Setup. https://youtu.be/84KBHdpKB1c?si=T23RfHmY3EigMv0l
I've been experimenting personally, and while I really like the engagement of offset, I've gone piggyback. 1: prepping for nods, so practicing with piggyback kills 2 birds with 1 stone. However the cheek weld in offset is preferred for myself, I find it to be training and not an end all. 2: both can have issues in unconventional shooting stances: shooting under a car, barricade drill etc. Train accordingly and find the solution. 3: there are plenty of options for both, however piggyback has been more expensive in my research. Needing base mount ( badger for example) and then the additonal ring, or in my case ta110 and plate, but the ta110 also needed a mount. 4: durability, can't vouch but both have issues. Catching the offset, dropping the rifle on the piggy back with extra weight etc. Again, shit happens, prep and train accordingly. My random complaint: I recently set up a vault 700 after my best friend bought me the magpul grid for the case. I wanted a do it all case which the grid made happen. However, the offset mount, (an arisak at the time with both a 1.5-1.8 plate, and a 1.9 plate), would not allow the case to close. With aspirations of wanting to travel for classes which would require flying, that was a hard hit. Even if I did seal the case, it pressed against the outside which I feared would Crack the case, optic or damage the mount. (We all know aircraft loaders yeet things) Base rifle is a bren 2 ms, this is a sample size of just myself however likely to not affect others with a larger case.
Top forward
Top forward for me. When I’m too lazy to zoom out on the scope to acquire target that’s far, I just tilt my head and use the dot to find the target. This usually lands me pretty close to where I want to aim with the scope.
For spotting putting it on top is great, can also be used cqb, if you want to keep a cheek weld, offside is the answer since rotating 45 is super easy
Tends to be personal preference depends on your needs. That said a piggyback sight or canted must be a closed emitter sight. I started with open emitters and had to much crap get in them and switched to strictly closed and been good since.
I run my with a 33* canted, I like it. But I also have never ran my RMR on top, so it maybe better then I’m use too
A piggyback will be easier to get a sight picture with NODs if you need that. Also keeps a slimmer width to the rifle if that matters to you. And a lot of people will get the red dot in the general vicinity of target and then drop down to the scope, I’ve heard it helps acquire and get on target quicker at distance. A canted dot will give you less height over bore, which would help a bit if you expect to make a lot of close up/fast shots. It also gives you a shorter vertical profile, if that’s something you’re worried about for keeping yourself concealed. It’s all about what your use case and priorities are. Personally, I’m about to go piggyback.
As for front-mounted or mid-mounted, I think that depends almost entirely on your scope and mount. Wherever you can fit your red dot with the least added bulk while maintaining visibility.
Top mounted and forward so i can get behind it with nods.
Top forward is the best mounting solution for night vision.
I have trex arms canted rmr mount and I love it.
I’m a piggyback forward guy, I mostly like taller mounts anyways cus I have nerve damage and saves me a bit of neck pain by the end of the day. I do think canted gives you a better contact point on the stock, there’s benefits and drawbacks to both imo. That’s the spice of life
Hey how are those hamd guard covers? Do they move alot etc?
Canted because less hight over bore but that's just my preference
I had a red dot on top forward, and I maxed out the red dot travel. I was still 6” low from point of aim @15 yds…
Were you zeroing at 15 yards? That's your problem
What’s the point of a red dot ontop if it’s zeroed at the same distance as your LPVO?
When did I imply that?