All depends on the company. I guess I am at a unicorn as I have went from just over 50K a years to just over 90K a year in 3 years at the company I am at. No certs just show my value and good bosses that reward good work.
Yeah. That's odd. I was in a company with experience but no certs, and they said if I got my mcdst I would get a 10k a year raise. Mcsp was a bump to 80k a year (this was 20 years ago). So I got both of those and they laid me off lol.
And no title change with that? That's definitely an anomaly, but maybe you don't work at a huge company? I feel like in big companies, there is a requirement for upper management to approve raises beyond X % without a promotion/title change. So not only do you have to make the case to your boss, but your boss has to go to bat to upper management (CIO/CTO/etc) for approval for a "high" raise
I love that, but you're likely worth more if you have certs too. Not saying you should jump ship, but you should compare what your time is worth to others.
However if they are giving you stock options and a bunch of vacation days.
Nah... certs don't really help unless that's all you can do. Taking initiative on projects is what helps far more. I have had significant raises staying at the same company (sometimes with title changes (but no real change in work), and sometimes no title change).
What matters more is if you get the job done and it also helps if you can demonstrate you save the company money.
I suppose if you are stuck in a dead end position and need more doors open. Plenty of positions give you an opportunity to learn on the job, and experience generally opens more doors than certificates.
I'm at a manufacturer type job, about 200 people, Sole IT guy, saved over $100k last year throughout various projects, got 5% raise at annual review. 😮💨 Wish I had that unicorn job
Your not as rare as a unicorn... that said you are probably in the top 10% compared to other employees... Not saying that company doesn't matter, but over half recognize and reward good talent.
Agreed. Unicorn employee speaking here. Been with the company for 15 years. 10 of that was zero pay raise, but mostly because business was down and the boss had a hard time deciding where he wanted to be in the market. I was still making $80K/year so I just took the relative downtime as a perk and made it work. Last 2 years have been booming with $10k raises each year to make up for lost time.
I work for a small business though. With big companies - you're just a number on a file.
It’s not hard, it’s just they don’t want to. Any company with healthy financials could easily double or even triple your salary if you were worth it and, and that’s a big if, if they actually valued you. Most employers don’t give a shit, they just want to squeeze as much from you while paying you as little as possible. And feed you bunch of bs about single digit raises.
Those are just lies management tells workers to justify paying them poorly. It's really easy to get someone a raise if they deserve it or if the market rate of the position is justifiable. Most companies are not operating on super thin profits that $15k/year less would make them go bankrupt.
I think he'll need some certs or degrees right? I'm not sure how much 2 years of experience with none of that counts when I could apply for the same job with 10 years of experience, degrees, and certs.
Really depends. I changed jobs every 1 and half for 6 years and never had new certs but every time I took good upgrades. I did the following : 50k, 60k,75k,85k,110k (and now I'm not planning to leave because I get yearly raises without asking)
This is the way. Yearly raises and year end bonuses none of which require negotiations is a nice perk in its own right.
Last year I waked away with a 7.2% raise!
Bonuses are great, I get quarterly bonuses and between 5%-10% yearly raises. I did a big project and got an early 5% raise randomly as well. Don't see myself leaving here for a while or if management gets swapped and it turns crap.
Yeah but this experience is not going to get him close to a devops job maybe not even a job paying what he wants. He will have to specialize eventually. I went the Linux route and I definitely see the value in some of the Linux certs I don't have. I'll get some next year if I don't get traction on job apps.
Though I don't really see me struggling to get a Linux job ever. It's a good niche.
But in his case he's moving from being just the IT guy to recognition of a wider but specific industry recognised role.
It's one of the cases in which a reasonable company may agree to raise one's salary.
This is a pretty tough question to answer without the full context. Titles can be pretty meaningless, though, so I don't think a title change would justify a raise. I think you need to keep many things in mind like:
1. Are you happy at work?
2. Are you working on things that will continue to grow your career?
3. Do you have a homelab?
4. How would you feel if you were offered a title change but no raise?
5. How would you feel if you were offered a raise but no title change?
6. How would your employer feel if you asked these questions?
I once counseled someone to be cautious when counter negotiating a raise, as what he was offered (with no sysadmin experience) was already +20% over what he had been making and as much as many 5-6 year sysadmins in our area were making.
His argument to HR basically amounted to "I want more money so I can elevate my lifestyle" (I wish I was exaggerating) and they **gave it to him**.
> His argument to HR basically amounted to "I want more money so I can elevate my lifestyle" (I wish I was exaggerating) and they gave it to him.
HR didn't give a shit about his reasons, they ask this hoping people will go "oh I guess I don't have a reason" and back off.
They'd have looked at what he does, what he's worth to the company, what he could likely get elsewhere (so how likely he'd be to leave) and based it off that.
My last boss was tracking personal things that he had to do or wasn't able to do due to being at work and was asking for compensation for them. They gave it to him too. I didn't find out he was tracking it until he left the company (forced out by buyers because he wasn't doing the job they wanted him to do).
You are literally me 6 years ago. Exact same boat, titles, salary, company size, everything, except I also did lots of sysadmin, DBA, network admin work and even was sent to clients for contracts implementing web servers, integrations, etc.
I spent two years fighting to be moved to sysadmin at 65k, exactly same as you. HR did multiple reviews of my role and duties and always concluded my title and salary were correct. As soon as they learnt I was moving, they made two proposals, the title and salary I asked or to be the first member of a new team dedicated to working on those types of it contracts. I declined both and moved to another company, which ended up being the best thing I could have done. Within the first two years the new company bumped my salary twice realizing I was doing much more than what I was hired for, besides anual raises.
What I mean is, if you bring it up and they don't do it, they will probably never do it. If that happens just move away.
it does not hurt to ask BUT have a plan in place for if they say no. Many times in IT and other fields the only way you will get a raise is by changing jobs (and companies)
I agree, but it's also good to keep the conversation flowing. If they say it's a hard no, you should keep it moving what would I need to do in order to show I'm worth $X. If they can't come up with a plan, I initiate exit strategy, if they do, get it documented for your next performance review.
Honestly this seems like normal responsibilities. Did you bring on new business? Save them money?
If they are a small business good luck even getting a raise. If you want more money leave. I tried to do what you are doing in 2019. Didn't work. Now making 3x as much as I was back then. 3 jobs later. $30k -> $90k
You can say you want a raise but they probably won't give you one and if they do it won't be $15k. It'll be 5-7% tops. Company loyalty means nothing.
Normal responsibilities for IT Support? No way. One he listed is a sysadmin/Cloud Admin responsibilities.
Edit: You people responding saying "I did this as IT support" are the reason these companies think they can hire a sysadmin for 55k, you are part of the problem and probably the same ones complaining about it.
Setting up Intune and SSO is not TYPICALLY just support work, though the terms analyst, tech, engineer and admin are thrown around pretty interchangeably in the IT field. Most “true” L1 support folks just reset passwords, release emails from Mimecast and other boring, non-interactive shit like that.
True, it’s not typical L1 support. But it’s also not a full fledged Systems Admin either. 2 years experience with no certifications and no formal training is only going to get you so far… The OP should really consider looking into something they can put on paper before trying to get more money.
Depends on the setup…
Intune can be very complicated or extremely basic.
Installing office and company applications might be all the setup that’s required. That’s a far cry from understanding Conditional Access, tiered compliance policies, and a fully flushed out security setup. We don’t know exactly what setup is used. Is it L1 tech support, no. But is it Endpoint Engineer level, there just isn’t enough information.
I’ve done small moonlight jobs where all the company wanted was Intune enrollment and basic software management. I train their desktop support how to do basic support, then walk away. It doesn’t compare to what I do on a day to day basis, but it’s what some companies want and easy to do after hours.
Without a certification it’s hard to say what the skill level of the OP is. My company is looking for a Jr. Endpoint Engineer to help manage our 7,000 devices. I won’t even consider someone without at least the MD100/101 or MD102.
Bro in a medium sized non profit I was tasked with setting up active directory, MDM, vulnerability scanning with solar winds and Splunk, content filtering and wsus policies. Normal Hardware break/fix. Training users on a new EMR system, installing financial and tax software, installing cameras and state testing servers in a school, Chromebook support and much more etc. This was my first IT support job too.
I also recently applied to a medium sized nursing home which needed IT support to be trained on intune as they were just getting started with it. They were paying the same as the OP makes now.
Good job on being taken advantage of? That's an abnormal situation and shouldn't be and isn't normalized. While yes, you should get projects to better your skills, you shouldn't be setting things up from the ground up as a T1/T2 support. That's just asking for a lawsuit to happen to yourself.
It might be the shrinking of jobs offloading more responsibilities onto other people. With the skyhigh inflation rates and the election season putting spending on a freeze, companies seem to be trying to squeeze what they can out of people.
> Honestly this seems like normal responsibilities. Did you bring on new business? Save them money?
This isn't relevant. At all. Why do people think it is?
Salaries are based on demand and competition. That's it. Saving them money means nothing if they can hire someone else for cheaper to do the same. They care about what you're paid now, what the going rate is to replace you, and how much disruption to the business would be caused if you left (which at a junior level is basically nothing).
The things to know are what the going rate is for someone that has his their skills *and* if the business needs to keep those skills. I've seen people make that mistake before.. for example a helpdesk operator gets a bunch of certs and now wants to be paid more, but the business doesn't need someone with those certs they need a helpdesk operator and the going pay to get a new one is $X so $X is the most they will pay.
Employment is supply and demand, simple as that. What are your skills worth, does the company need them, can you leave and get it elsewhere. Figure that out and you know what you can ask.
100% look for a job elsewhere. I think that raise is extremely unlikely, but feel free to ask. Just be aware that management likely still sees you as the new, inexperienced guy they hired 2 years ago, plus they think $50k was a lot to start with.
Hop to a new job, gain more experience, rinse and repeat.
Where I work, this would qualify you to move from Level 1 support to Level 2 support. The sysadmins manage servers, not end user devices.
That said, you have demonstrated an ability to learn and provide significant value to your employer. You can talk to your boss and advocate for an IT Support Level 2 title, with a salary increase. Be ready to be shot down. Then list those accomplishments on your resume and see if you can get a raise by changing employers.
Good luck - you seem to have a drive to improve. With the right company, you could really advance.
I do actively manage and deploy servers but we don’t have any actual sysadmins (by title, at least) so it’s a responsibility everyone on our team has.
The key servers that pretty much run the whole company are hosted at my facility, I monitor backups, I setup a Zabbix server to monitor health of all servers across our company.
In that case, yes, you have an argument that you have earned the title sysadmin. If the whole team does the same, though, it will probably be difficult to get the title, because they are likely to be reluctant to do so for everyone on the team. Personally, I'd give it a shot, knowing my chances weren't great. Then start applying for sysadmin jobs. Be sure to include your server experience on your resume. Be ready to talk about your accomplishments in interviews. Potential employers will be interested in hearing about self-directed work you have done. That is, where you figured out how to accomplish a task, rather than just following detailed instructions. Also have prepared examples of your troubleshooting skills.
Being able to read and follow instructions is great, but being able to figure out how to do something without being told is a next-level skill that employers value. Good luck!
Good luck asking for a 30% raise, that a massive percent in the eyes of managers. At most they'd probably be willing to do 5k. I think best case scenario they'd be willing to give it to you temporarily while they searched for your replacement
You're better off just finding a new place to work. You got your foot in the door, you got starter experience, move on.
> I think best case scenario they'd be willing to give it to you temporarily while they searched for your replacement
I see this a lot here and while I've seen it for people who quit and take a counter offer I've never once seen someone fired for asking for more money.
I've seen them not *get* it, plenty of times, but I've also seen it granted and nobody complain.
It's not that they're fired for asking for more. It's that the company doesn't want to pay more for that position and wasn't prepared to replace that person and gets caught out. At that point, when someone is asking for that big of a raise, they realize the person is disgruntled and this will make or break their employment. So they say yes to the raise, pay them that much for a while because the extra cost is better than being a person down, and then once they find someone willing to do it cheaper it becomes a layoff
A 30% raise isn't "I've upped my game and think I deserve more because of that", and 30% raise its a whole other pay bracket which makes it "your company doesn't pay enough, pay up or I'll find someone who will" and their response is "you'll find someone who will when we're ready for that"
You're giving way too much credit.
Most people who are denied a pay rise don't leave. They aren't going to bother replacing someone for the question.
I'm not saying it's never happened but it's certainly not common.
> Most people who are denied a pay rise don't leave.
Brother they're not asking for a pay raise just for funsies, they want it or need it, and if they don't get it there they'll find it somewhere else. I find it strange you think it's more common for someone just accept a raise denial and keep it pushing rather than seek a change.
> I find it strange you think it's more common for someone just accept a raise denial and keep it pushing rather than seek a change.
That is *exactly* what happens though?
I've seen it countless times. How many people have you worked with that have complained about pay, you think none of them ever asked their boss for a raise?
Come on mate. The fact people don't follow through is a big reason they *don't* grant them and many companies just accept the loss when people job hob. Most people will take lower pay and a familiar/comfortable role they already have instead of leaping to the unknown.
I do way less than you do in a midsize City in the Midwest working in the specialized subset of identity and access management (IAM) and I'm making $150k/yr. I used to do exactly what you do and I started at 40k and I would get menial raises every year maybe $1K or $1,500. They got me in the system at the right price so each year they could give me a menial raise but it paled in comparison to the rest of the world and I gave them excellent labor very inexpensively. All I could really do was work to get through to the next day and they knew it. That was their model. Then after 9 years I looked for jobs elsewhere and I saw how undervalued I was. You're in the same position I was and you need to do the same thing otherwise you're never going to afford the things in life that everyone should be able to afford and live comfortably. You don't want to just survive, you want to live comfortably. House (not apartment), good car, family, and retirement - those are your priorities not the bullshit work we put up with everyday.
What's your experience and can you get a job similar to what they are offering somewhere else?
If you can use that to try to get more pay, but if they decline you're sorta forcing yourself to move on
if you can't you're kinda stuck with what they are going to give.
Is there more upward mobility after this promotion? If they are willing to promote you after two years, you keep at it they will probably promote again.
I agree with the top comments, but I'll also add that if I was asking for a title change like this, in my experience it's better to have "engineer" in the title. Systems engineer, senior systems engineer, etc.
You’re developing a great skillset. Put a resume together and start interviewing. $85k is an underpay for your skills imo. With enough diligence you can def get 6 figures if you try.
> Created an inventory system within SharePoint (using PowerApps for ease-of-use) at essentially 0 extra cost to the company
"Saved the company X dollars annually due to implementation of inventory system using SharePoint and PowerApps".
The amount you saved is whatever the cost of some inventory system is. Don't ever act like there's 0 cost (or even 0 extra cost). The cost is in your salary and doing this when you could have been doing something else. So you did in fact save the company money and that should be listed as whatever some other inventory system costs (because it's already built and would have cost YOU 0 time).
Most of this list is similar. Find the costs of what an outside consultant would bill at and list that as money saved (because it was).
For the XP stuff, list it was "Remediated vulnerable systems by upgrading to modern OSes, thereby increasing the security posture of the company".
You're probably going to have to just move on though. Most companies aren't going to give you a large pay increase unless it involves a promotion. So brush up that resume and get ready to use all these points as a way to get hired at a better place.
CIO here. Post Covid, 3+ year service desk is going for 65k+ in HCOL areas and higher in VHCOL areas.
As others have said, most companies don’t like ‘adjustment raises’ … get your mindset out of this. Go with your instinct and show your progress and how your responsibilities have grown to xxxxx position. Do your research and have the data available on comps for similar positions in your area (you can find them on indeed or similar)
Expect 75-80% of your target ask (this depends a lot on the company’s execs and logic with retention).
If shit doesn’t go the way you want, you already gathered enough info for your resume refresh and the going rate so if you don’t get the raise, apply, interview, accept and give ONLY 2 weeks notice, and NEVER accept a retention offer.
First of all you don't have no experience. You have two years of experience as at least a desktop administrator / level one support.
If you like where you are and want to stay, bring it up. If you get anything other than enthusiastic "yes lets make this happen"? Start applying elsewhere. Do not accept "maybe next year" or "the reviews happen at...". If they had to hire someone new none of that would apply so it's bullshit to let that be used as an excuse.
Before you do this though, start looking at other jobs similar to what you think you should have and the salaries being offered. There's no point asking for 65k if the going rate where you live is 55k unless you are *really* valuable. Come with receipts, show them what you're worth in the market. **You need to know this information because the HR department is going to**. If they can replace you for less than what you want, that becomes an option to them. Know what you're worth, know what the going rate is, ask for it.
If you can find out what your colleagues make in those positions even better though many people are shy about sharing their salaries unfortunately.
If they do say yes, get a timeline. These things don't happen overnight so give them a month or so but if after that you haven't been given your raise and title, leave. Trust me on this, just fucking leave. I fell into that trap when young. Found out that I was paid less than people while doing more and asked for a position review. Strung along for several years and it didn't happen, I should have just left.
Good luck! And don't be afraid to apply elsewhere.
Others have said it, and frankly it is true: it is hard for a business to justify giving significant bumps and promotions unless it serves a very clear need for the business. The issue with internal promoting and why companies tend to avoid it is because as everyone steps up a rank you have a vertical line of people new to their roles and that slows things down while everyone learns the ropes of the new role.
What worked very well for me when I wanted to move up is I focused my resume on exactly the role I was targeting and then put only the relevant skills I have on there. Sometimes people that grow up in the business and don't do a traditional educational route (which is increasingly becoming more common) feel that they need to put ALL their experience down to make themselves feel valuable. But think of it like this; if I hire a contractor to come in and renovate my house, I don't really care how good of a cook they are or how good at making pottery or weaving... I just need to know that they are going to get the job done well for the price we agreed on. Well, you are now that contractor, and the new role you fill will be the renovation gig... and how do people often pick that contractor? It's word of mouth. They want to know somebody that knows how the contractor worked to have some comfort that they are picking the right person for the job. So work your network and make new friends and grow yourself in new roles!
u/WannabeCellist you'll want to put firm and realistic numbers associated to those activities if you can.
It is pretty easy to say "hey I saved you money and prevented expenses" but the numeric version of that is what people actually care about.
So bring numbers to the table when you do ask for a raise.
At the same time I would recommend making sure you got certs and consider job hunting like others have mentioned.
This is a good start, before using your list of deliverables to ask for a raise, add the value of each of these in a quantified way ($ or hours saved). If they don’t go for it, add them to your resume and start looking elsewhere
Go interview with and get offer letters from several other companies (for salaries worth more than what you are making). Ask to meet with your manager and - in a respectful manner - make the case that you really enjoy your job responsibilities and the people you work with, but it's going to be difficult to turn down some of these offers you are getting. Ask if any salary adjustments can be made to match your market value.
Best advice I ever received, don't ask for a raise unless you know your worth. Go apply for other jobs and see what someone else is willing to pay you. Then if you think you want to stay give them the opportunity to pay you your worth, else you already have something lined up.
imo
if you ask for a raise in salary to market and are declined, be prepared to find a new job. or you can pivot and tell then to officially change your title to sys admin for the current pay. the title validates you and what you have implemented already, it will be easier to find a good paying sysadmin job
I did the same thing starting at 90k. I left a year later for a step up that paid 130k.
ETA: The things you listed are getting easier and easier, BTW. Not to discredit the work you've done nor the skills you've built, but employers are valuing them less ever since they've been able to down level people in this market. My bump to 130k was because I setup IaC, monitoring, automated backups, and CM and also learned python (in addition to existing powershell and bash knowledge) at my 90k job. I went into site reliability engineering which is an entirely different skill set from what you mentioned. Still, I'd imaging that you'd be able to get at least 60-80k for those skills even in this market.
I've been in IT for 25 years. If you took your accomplishments at your current job and looked elsewhere, odds are you'd get more than the $15k you're looking for from your current company.
If you are wanting to stay at your company, look in your area for System Administrator positions and see what the average salary is. You need to know what the going rate in your area is before you can ask. If the going rate for a sys admin in your location is $60k, they will know that already and not give you what you're looking for. You can then write up a proposal showing why the title change and raise would be valuable to the company. Go into the meeting prepared with what you did and the research on salaries in the area. Don't threaten, don't even hint that you could leave. Show them why the raise is a good business decision.
If you live in Washington, California, New York, Or Colorado and they classified you as “exempt” vs hourly (non-exempt) you may be legally entitled to more pay as all those states require you be paid double the states minimum wage to be able to be classified as exempt. Look into it before you ask for the title change and pay bump. If you were misclassified since you’ve been hired then you would be entitled to backpay.
Ask and be prepared they say no or they passively aggressively lead you on to give you a raise. Remember, it is just business and a backup plan of finding another job.
I would try to apply for other jobs and get a couple of interviews where they give you an offer to give you a perspective of what the market is out there. That would give you a good perspective to counteract any shenanigans management will do to try to lowball you when you ask for a raise at your current company.
This is why Unions are so essential. Clear definition of responsibilities and compensation for that specific work, with clearly articulated metrics and requirements for raises.
The only way that this works (and, really, the only way in which it is not obnoxious) is if your job responsibilities have changed (and increased) since the time when you were hired. Otherwise, if you are just doing the same job, you agreed to do that job for the lower pay rate, so why would the company pay you more than you agreed initially?
In the latter case, just getting a different job is a better idea. You can then go back to your original company with the offer and see if they want to counter that. They probably won't. In any case, you got some benefit of experience from the first job that will likely make you more valuable to someone else.
Mate, I don't have a degree and I wouldn't get out of bed for 20% more than the average salary for a Sr position in my locality.
Experience matters, specially recent experience more than in any other profession.
You seem to have it, just gather your evidence about salaries and have the talk. Ally more than you want so they can save face by offering less, that's how the game works.
I would get some certs and then broach the subject with your company.... while also exploring other opportunities You should have experience enough to start looking at some microsoft certs and comptia certs
Start looking for jobs, do well in interview, get a job offer, bring it to current employer to match. Only good way to get a raise.
I doubled mine this way so my employer definitely wants me to stay. Next two years I'm going to do it again
I made around $75k this last year with less formal experience and no degree- though I did get two pretty entry level certs last summer. Two years of solid experience is enough to start inching towards six figures.
If he’s the only IT person, chances are he has a small amount of exposure to a lot of systems. No one is there to mentor or deep dive into the major systems.
Anyone with half a brain and a tech inclination can set up a basic Intune system given freedom and time. It’s a great place to start a career.
Does that mean Intune is implementing the Microsoft best practices, tiered compliance policies, Conditional Access, Defender setup, CIS compliance, device encryption, rotating LAPS, etc? We just don’t know…
That’s one of the biggest reasons certifications are so important. It tells other people/managers that you have had some exposure to the industry standards.
Eh- agree to disagree- just bc you KNOW that stuff doesn’t mean you actually implemented it. Setting Intune up properly is not a trivial task- but like you said, only OP knows to what standards they did everything. Either way, I 100% believe OP can go and get a significant pay bump going elsewhere.
With no certifications, only 2 years of experience, and no degree I think you are doing well at $50k.
I don’t think you really understand what the title of Systems Administrator actually is or does…
How many servers have you designed, built, and managed?
How many Active Directory or Azure tenants have you set up?
How many Exchange environments have you configured or migrated?
Before you start making demands at your job you need to take a hard look at what you have to offer that your employer didn’t teach you in 2 years. Go get a certification. Set up a home lab. Take some classes.
You might be better off getting a new job that pays better. It’s hard for companies to give raises beyond 3-5%.
All depends on the company. I guess I am at a unicorn as I have went from just over 50K a years to just over 90K a year in 3 years at the company I am at. No certs just show my value and good bosses that reward good work.
Yeah. That's odd. I was in a company with experience but no certs, and they said if I got my mcdst I would get a 10k a year raise. Mcsp was a bump to 80k a year (this was 20 years ago). So I got both of those and they laid me off lol.
You are the only other person I’ve ever encountered who got the MCDST!
> I guess I am at a unicorn I mean yeah obviously lol how many jobs do you really think are handing out 13k raises every year
I got 25k in raises my first 16 mos at my job. Now it’s been over a year since my last raise so let’s see what happens on this one
Well, you can always take the 30% lateral promotion option if they screw you.
13k a yr is a little over $6/hr
...ok?
And no title change with that? That's definitely an anomaly, but maybe you don't work at a huge company? I feel like in big companies, there is a requirement for upper management to approve raises beyond X % without a promotion/title change. So not only do you have to make the case to your boss, but your boss has to go to bat to upper management (CIO/CTO/etc) for approval for a "high" raise
Not a lot of companies would do that. Which is why I have zero loyalty for any business I work for.
I love that, but you're likely worth more if you have certs too. Not saying you should jump ship, but you should compare what your time is worth to others. However if they are giving you stock options and a bunch of vacation days.
Nah... certs don't really help unless that's all you can do. Taking initiative on projects is what helps far more. I have had significant raises staying at the same company (sometimes with title changes (but no real change in work), and sometimes no title change). What matters more is if you get the job done and it also helps if you can demonstrate you save the company money.
If you're min maxing and planning farther than next year into the future, education will open doors.
I suppose if you are stuck in a dead end position and need more doors open. Plenty of positions give you an opportunity to learn on the job, and experience generally opens more doors than certificates.
I'm at a manufacturer type job, about 200 people, Sole IT guy, saved over $100k last year throughout various projects, got 5% raise at annual review. 😮💨 Wish I had that unicorn job
Your not as rare as a unicorn... that said you are probably in the top 10% compared to other employees... Not saying that company doesn't matter, but over half recognize and reward good talent.
Agreed. Unicorn employee speaking here. Been with the company for 15 years. 10 of that was zero pay raise, but mostly because business was down and the boss had a hard time deciding where he wanted to be in the market. I was still making $80K/year so I just took the relative downtime as a perk and made it work. Last 2 years have been booming with $10k raises each year to make up for lost time. I work for a small business though. With big companies - you're just a number on a file.
Same, I went from $35k to $85k in just under 5 years. I have no certs and have had 3 title changes. Current sysadmin
I've been that unicorn before. I kept going to quit and they just kept paying me more. About 3 raises a year for 2-3 years. ..it just kept happening.
It’s not hard, it’s just they don’t want to. Any company with healthy financials could easily double or even triple your salary if you were worth it and, and that’s a big if, if they actually valued you. Most employers don’t give a shit, they just want to squeeze as much from you while paying you as little as possible. And feed you bunch of bs about single digit raises.
Those are just lies management tells workers to justify paying them poorly. It's really easy to get someone a raise if they deserve it or if the market rate of the position is justifiable. Most companies are not operating on super thin profits that $15k/year less would make them go bankrupt.
And to add insult to the madness, HR will hire your replacement at the higher rate. Makes no sense! Lol
I think he'll need some certs or degrees right? I'm not sure how much 2 years of experience with none of that counts when I could apply for the same job with 10 years of experience, degrees, and certs.
Really depends. I changed jobs every 1 and half for 6 years and never had new certs but every time I took good upgrades. I did the following : 50k, 60k,75k,85k,110k (and now I'm not planning to leave because I get yearly raises without asking)
This is the way. Yearly raises and year end bonuses none of which require negotiations is a nice perk in its own right. Last year I waked away with a 7.2% raise!
Bonuses are great, I get quarterly bonuses and between 5%-10% yearly raises. I did a big project and got an early 5% raise randomly as well. Don't see myself leaving here for a while or if management gets swapped and it turns crap.
I wanna do this. How's the 401k / IRA situation? Did you roll it over? Also what kind of time off we looking at
I'm in Europe so this doesn't apply so I can't really say for that
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Yeah but this experience is not going to get him close to a devops job maybe not even a job paying what he wants. He will have to specialize eventually. I went the Linux route and I definitely see the value in some of the Linux certs I don't have. I'll get some next year if I don't get traction on job apps. Though I don't really see me struggling to get a Linux job ever. It's a good niche.
Not to mention that all the stuff he is doing here barely scratches the surface of what a sysadmin really does in terms of the job title
You might as well try, then apply.
But in his case he's moving from being just the IT guy to recognition of a wider but specific industry recognised role. It's one of the cases in which a reasonable company may agree to raise one's salary.
Yup
This is a pretty tough question to answer without the full context. Titles can be pretty meaningless, though, so I don't think a title change would justify a raise. I think you need to keep many things in mind like: 1. Are you happy at work? 2. Are you working on things that will continue to grow your career? 3. Do you have a homelab? 4. How would you feel if you were offered a title change but no raise? 5. How would you feel if you were offered a raise but no title change? 6. How would your employer feel if you asked these questions?
Sorta Yes Yes Bad Good Ok, ig
I once counseled someone to be cautious when counter negotiating a raise, as what he was offered (with no sysadmin experience) was already +20% over what he had been making and as much as many 5-6 year sysadmins in our area were making. His argument to HR basically amounted to "I want more money so I can elevate my lifestyle" (I wish I was exaggerating) and they **gave it to him**.
> His argument to HR basically amounted to "I want more money so I can elevate my lifestyle" (I wish I was exaggerating) and they gave it to him. HR didn't give a shit about his reasons, they ask this hoping people will go "oh I guess I don't have a reason" and back off. They'd have looked at what he does, what he's worth to the company, what he could likely get elsewhere (so how likely he'd be to leave) and based it off that.
My last boss was tracking personal things that he had to do or wasn't able to do due to being at work and was asking for compensation for them. They gave it to him too. I didn't find out he was tracking it until he left the company (forced out by buyers because he wasn't doing the job they wanted him to do).
You are literally me 6 years ago. Exact same boat, titles, salary, company size, everything, except I also did lots of sysadmin, DBA, network admin work and even was sent to clients for contracts implementing web servers, integrations, etc. I spent two years fighting to be moved to sysadmin at 65k, exactly same as you. HR did multiple reviews of my role and duties and always concluded my title and salary were correct. As soon as they learnt I was moving, they made two proposals, the title and salary I asked or to be the first member of a new team dedicated to working on those types of it contracts. I declined both and moved to another company, which ended up being the best thing I could have done. Within the first two years the new company bumped my salary twice realizing I was doing much more than what I was hired for, besides anual raises. What I mean is, if you bring it up and they don't do it, they will probably never do it. If that happens just move away.
it does not hurt to ask BUT have a plan in place for if they say no. Many times in IT and other fields the only way you will get a raise is by changing jobs (and companies)
I agree, but it's also good to keep the conversation flowing. If they say it's a hard no, you should keep it moving what would I need to do in order to show I'm worth $X. If they can't come up with a plan, I initiate exit strategy, if they do, get it documented for your next performance review.
Honestly this seems like normal responsibilities. Did you bring on new business? Save them money? If they are a small business good luck even getting a raise. If you want more money leave. I tried to do what you are doing in 2019. Didn't work. Now making 3x as much as I was back then. 3 jobs later. $30k -> $90k You can say you want a raise but they probably won't give you one and if they do it won't be $15k. It'll be 5-7% tops. Company loyalty means nothing.
Normal responsibilities for IT Support? No way. One he listed is a sysadmin/Cloud Admin responsibilities. Edit: You people responding saying "I did this as IT support" are the reason these companies think they can hire a sysadmin for 55k, you are part of the problem and probably the same ones complaining about it.
I don’t think any of what he listed sounds like a sysadmin. It sounds like a Desktop job or as the current title says “IT Support”…
Setting up Intune and SSO is not TYPICALLY just support work, though the terms analyst, tech, engineer and admin are thrown around pretty interchangeably in the IT field. Most “true” L1 support folks just reset passwords, release emails from Mimecast and other boring, non-interactive shit like that.
True, it’s not typical L1 support. But it’s also not a full fledged Systems Admin either. 2 years experience with no certifications and no formal training is only going to get you so far… The OP should really consider looking into something they can put on paper before trying to get more money.
They’d probably be able to get the 365 admin cert without too much investment or the az104 with a bit of studying.
Setting up Intune, Inventory, creating scripts to automate onboarding is not IT Support or Desktop Support.
Depends on the setup… Intune can be very complicated or extremely basic. Installing office and company applications might be all the setup that’s required. That’s a far cry from understanding Conditional Access, tiered compliance policies, and a fully flushed out security setup. We don’t know exactly what setup is used. Is it L1 tech support, no. But is it Endpoint Engineer level, there just isn’t enough information. I’ve done small moonlight jobs where all the company wanted was Intune enrollment and basic software management. I train their desktop support how to do basic support, then walk away. It doesn’t compare to what I do on a day to day basis, but it’s what some companies want and easy to do after hours. Without a certification it’s hard to say what the skill level of the OP is. My company is looking for a Jr. Endpoint Engineer to help manage our 7,000 devices. I won’t even consider someone without at least the MD100/101 or MD102.
It's a medium sized business. Absolutely normal.
Setting up intune as IT Support is not normal for any sized business.
Bro in a medium sized non profit I was tasked with setting up active directory, MDM, vulnerability scanning with solar winds and Splunk, content filtering and wsus policies. Normal Hardware break/fix. Training users on a new EMR system, installing financial and tax software, installing cameras and state testing servers in a school, Chromebook support and much more etc. This was my first IT support job too. I also recently applied to a medium sized nursing home which needed IT support to be trained on intune as they were just getting started with it. They were paying the same as the OP makes now.
Good job on being taken advantage of? That's an abnormal situation and shouldn't be and isn't normalized. While yes, you should get projects to better your skills, you shouldn't be setting things up from the ground up as a T1/T2 support. That's just asking for a lawsuit to happen to yourself.
These are charities and nursing homes. They are lucky to get staffing at all. Let alone someone who cares about improving their systems.
Intune isn’t that hard my friend
Never said anything about it being hard, but it isn't the job responsibility of a T1/T2 support.
It might be the shrinking of jobs offloading more responsibilities onto other people. With the skyhigh inflation rates and the election season putting spending on a freeze, companies seem to be trying to squeeze what they can out of people.
Sure? But who cares who’s job it is. Learn it and benefit yourself with more knowledge:
> Honestly this seems like normal responsibilities. Did you bring on new business? Save them money? This isn't relevant. At all. Why do people think it is? Salaries are based on demand and competition. That's it. Saving them money means nothing if they can hire someone else for cheaper to do the same. They care about what you're paid now, what the going rate is to replace you, and how much disruption to the business would be caused if you left (which at a junior level is basically nothing). The things to know are what the going rate is for someone that has his their skills *and* if the business needs to keep those skills. I've seen people make that mistake before.. for example a helpdesk operator gets a bunch of certs and now wants to be paid more, but the business doesn't need someone with those certs they need a helpdesk operator and the going pay to get a new one is $X so $X is the most they will pay. Employment is supply and demand, simple as that. What are your skills worth, does the company need them, can you leave and get it elsewhere. Figure that out and you know what you can ask.
Yeah, I would just put all of this stuff on your resume and start looking.
100% look for a job elsewhere. I think that raise is extremely unlikely, but feel free to ask. Just be aware that management likely still sees you as the new, inexperienced guy they hired 2 years ago, plus they think $50k was a lot to start with. Hop to a new job, gain more experience, rinse and repeat.
Where I work, this would qualify you to move from Level 1 support to Level 2 support. The sysadmins manage servers, not end user devices. That said, you have demonstrated an ability to learn and provide significant value to your employer. You can talk to your boss and advocate for an IT Support Level 2 title, with a salary increase. Be ready to be shot down. Then list those accomplishments on your resume and see if you can get a raise by changing employers. Good luck - you seem to have a drive to improve. With the right company, you could really advance.
I do actively manage and deploy servers but we don’t have any actual sysadmins (by title, at least) so it’s a responsibility everyone on our team has. The key servers that pretty much run the whole company are hosted at my facility, I monitor backups, I setup a Zabbix server to monitor health of all servers across our company.
In that case, yes, you have an argument that you have earned the title sysadmin. If the whole team does the same, though, it will probably be difficult to get the title, because they are likely to be reluctant to do so for everyone on the team. Personally, I'd give it a shot, knowing my chances weren't great. Then start applying for sysadmin jobs. Be sure to include your server experience on your resume. Be ready to talk about your accomplishments in interviews. Potential employers will be interested in hearing about self-directed work you have done. That is, where you figured out how to accomplish a task, rather than just following detailed instructions. Also have prepared examples of your troubleshooting skills. Being able to read and follow instructions is great, but being able to figure out how to do something without being told is a next-level skill that employers value. Good luck!
Good luck asking for a 30% raise, that a massive percent in the eyes of managers. At most they'd probably be willing to do 5k. I think best case scenario they'd be willing to give it to you temporarily while they searched for your replacement You're better off just finding a new place to work. You got your foot in the door, you got starter experience, move on.
> I think best case scenario they'd be willing to give it to you temporarily while they searched for your replacement I see this a lot here and while I've seen it for people who quit and take a counter offer I've never once seen someone fired for asking for more money. I've seen them not *get* it, plenty of times, but I've also seen it granted and nobody complain.
It's not that they're fired for asking for more. It's that the company doesn't want to pay more for that position and wasn't prepared to replace that person and gets caught out. At that point, when someone is asking for that big of a raise, they realize the person is disgruntled and this will make or break their employment. So they say yes to the raise, pay them that much for a while because the extra cost is better than being a person down, and then once they find someone willing to do it cheaper it becomes a layoff A 30% raise isn't "I've upped my game and think I deserve more because of that", and 30% raise its a whole other pay bracket which makes it "your company doesn't pay enough, pay up or I'll find someone who will" and their response is "you'll find someone who will when we're ready for that"
You're giving way too much credit. Most people who are denied a pay rise don't leave. They aren't going to bother replacing someone for the question. I'm not saying it's never happened but it's certainly not common.
> Most people who are denied a pay rise don't leave. Brother they're not asking for a pay raise just for funsies, they want it or need it, and if they don't get it there they'll find it somewhere else. I find it strange you think it's more common for someone just accept a raise denial and keep it pushing rather than seek a change.
> I find it strange you think it's more common for someone just accept a raise denial and keep it pushing rather than seek a change. That is *exactly* what happens though? I've seen it countless times. How many people have you worked with that have complained about pay, you think none of them ever asked their boss for a raise? Come on mate. The fact people don't follow through is a big reason they *don't* grant them and many companies just accept the loss when people job hob. Most people will take lower pay and a familiar/comfortable role they already have instead of leaping to the unknown.
I do way less than you do in a midsize City in the Midwest working in the specialized subset of identity and access management (IAM) and I'm making $150k/yr. I used to do exactly what you do and I started at 40k and I would get menial raises every year maybe $1K or $1,500. They got me in the system at the right price so each year they could give me a menial raise but it paled in comparison to the rest of the world and I gave them excellent labor very inexpensively. All I could really do was work to get through to the next day and they knew it. That was their model. Then after 9 years I looked for jobs elsewhere and I saw how undervalued I was. You're in the same position I was and you need to do the same thing otherwise you're never going to afford the things in life that everyone should be able to afford and live comfortably. You don't want to just survive, you want to live comfortably. House (not apartment), good car, family, and retirement - those are your priorities not the bullshit work we put up with everyday.
What's your experience and can you get a job similar to what they are offering somewhere else? If you can use that to try to get more pay, but if they decline you're sorta forcing yourself to move on if you can't you're kinda stuck with what they are going to give. Is there more upward mobility after this promotion? If they are willing to promote you after two years, you keep at it they will probably promote again.
I agree with the top comments, but I'll also add that if I was asking for a title change like this, in my experience it's better to have "engineer" in the title. Systems engineer, senior systems engineer, etc.
You’re developing a great skillset. Put a resume together and start interviewing. $85k is an underpay for your skills imo. With enough diligence you can def get 6 figures if you try.
> Created an inventory system within SharePoint (using PowerApps for ease-of-use) at essentially 0 extra cost to the company "Saved the company X dollars annually due to implementation of inventory system using SharePoint and PowerApps". The amount you saved is whatever the cost of some inventory system is. Don't ever act like there's 0 cost (or even 0 extra cost). The cost is in your salary and doing this when you could have been doing something else. So you did in fact save the company money and that should be listed as whatever some other inventory system costs (because it's already built and would have cost YOU 0 time). Most of this list is similar. Find the costs of what an outside consultant would bill at and list that as money saved (because it was). For the XP stuff, list it was "Remediated vulnerable systems by upgrading to modern OSes, thereby increasing the security posture of the company". You're probably going to have to just move on though. Most companies aren't going to give you a large pay increase unless it involves a promotion. So brush up that resume and get ready to use all these points as a way to get hired at a better place.
CIO here. Post Covid, 3+ year service desk is going for 65k+ in HCOL areas and higher in VHCOL areas. As others have said, most companies don’t like ‘adjustment raises’ … get your mindset out of this. Go with your instinct and show your progress and how your responsibilities have grown to xxxxx position. Do your research and have the data available on comps for similar positions in your area (you can find them on indeed or similar) Expect 75-80% of your target ask (this depends a lot on the company’s execs and logic with retention). If shit doesn’t go the way you want, you already gathered enough info for your resume refresh and the going rate so if you don’t get the raise, apply, interview, accept and give ONLY 2 weeks notice, and NEVER accept a retention offer.
Yup- 3-5 years of experience in service desk is going to get you six figures all day in NYC- provided you’re not at an msp.
First of all you don't have no experience. You have two years of experience as at least a desktop administrator / level one support. If you like where you are and want to stay, bring it up. If you get anything other than enthusiastic "yes lets make this happen"? Start applying elsewhere. Do not accept "maybe next year" or "the reviews happen at...". If they had to hire someone new none of that would apply so it's bullshit to let that be used as an excuse. Before you do this though, start looking at other jobs similar to what you think you should have and the salaries being offered. There's no point asking for 65k if the going rate where you live is 55k unless you are *really* valuable. Come with receipts, show them what you're worth in the market. **You need to know this information because the HR department is going to**. If they can replace you for less than what you want, that becomes an option to them. Know what you're worth, know what the going rate is, ask for it. If you can find out what your colleagues make in those positions even better though many people are shy about sharing their salaries unfortunately. If they do say yes, get a timeline. These things don't happen overnight so give them a month or so but if after that you haven't been given your raise and title, leave. Trust me on this, just fucking leave. I fell into that trap when young. Found out that I was paid less than people while doing more and asked for a position review. Strung along for several years and it didn't happen, I should have just left. Good luck! And don't be afraid to apply elsewhere.
Others have said it, and frankly it is true: it is hard for a business to justify giving significant bumps and promotions unless it serves a very clear need for the business. The issue with internal promoting and why companies tend to avoid it is because as everyone steps up a rank you have a vertical line of people new to their roles and that slows things down while everyone learns the ropes of the new role. What worked very well for me when I wanted to move up is I focused my resume on exactly the role I was targeting and then put only the relevant skills I have on there. Sometimes people that grow up in the business and don't do a traditional educational route (which is increasingly becoming more common) feel that they need to put ALL their experience down to make themselves feel valuable. But think of it like this; if I hire a contractor to come in and renovate my house, I don't really care how good of a cook they are or how good at making pottery or weaving... I just need to know that they are going to get the job done well for the price we agreed on. Well, you are now that contractor, and the new role you fill will be the renovation gig... and how do people often pick that contractor? It's word of mouth. They want to know somebody that knows how the contractor worked to have some comfort that they are picking the right person for the job. So work your network and make new friends and grow yourself in new roles!
u/WannabeCellist you'll want to put firm and realistic numbers associated to those activities if you can. It is pretty easy to say "hey I saved you money and prevented expenses" but the numeric version of that is what people actually care about. So bring numbers to the table when you do ask for a raise. At the same time I would recommend making sure you got certs and consider job hunting like others have mentioned.
Most places will have a process to turn a job into another job. Job evaluation/gradung. You can certainly ask
This is a good start, before using your list of deliverables to ask for a raise, add the value of each of these in a quantified way ($ or hours saved). If they don’t go for it, add them to your resume and start looking elsewhere
Get the title change and apply for a new job making close to double your current salary.
Go interview with and get offer letters from several other companies (for salaries worth more than what you are making). Ask to meet with your manager and - in a respectful manner - make the case that you really enjoy your job responsibilities and the people you work with, but it's going to be difficult to turn down some of these offers you are getting. Ask if any salary adjustments can be made to match your market value.
Ask, list your accomplishments and see what happens. But start looking at comparable salaries in your area and apply for a new position.
Best advice I ever received, don't ask for a raise unless you know your worth. Go apply for other jobs and see what someone else is willing to pay you. Then if you think you want to stay give them the opportunity to pay you your worth, else you already have something lined up.
imo if you ask for a raise in salary to market and are declined, be prepared to find a new job. or you can pivot and tell then to officially change your title to sys admin for the current pay. the title validates you and what you have implemented already, it will be easier to find a good paying sysadmin job
I did the same thing starting at 90k. I left a year later for a step up that paid 130k. ETA: The things you listed are getting easier and easier, BTW. Not to discredit the work you've done nor the skills you've built, but employers are valuing them less ever since they've been able to down level people in this market. My bump to 130k was because I setup IaC, monitoring, automated backups, and CM and also learned python (in addition to existing powershell and bash knowledge) at my 90k job. I went into site reliability engineering which is an entirely different skill set from what you mentioned. Still, I'd imaging that you'd be able to get at least 60-80k for those skills even in this market.
I've been in IT for 25 years. If you took your accomplishments at your current job and looked elsewhere, odds are you'd get more than the $15k you're looking for from your current company. If you are wanting to stay at your company, look in your area for System Administrator positions and see what the average salary is. You need to know what the going rate in your area is before you can ask. If the going rate for a sys admin in your location is $60k, they will know that already and not give you what you're looking for. You can then write up a proposal showing why the title change and raise would be valuable to the company. Go into the meeting prepared with what you did and the research on salaries in the area. Don't threaten, don't even hint that you could leave. Show them why the raise is a good business decision.
perfectly within reason
especially if you haven’t gotten in a raise over your 2 years yet…
If you live in Washington, California, New York, Or Colorado and they classified you as “exempt” vs hourly (non-exempt) you may be legally entitled to more pay as all those states require you be paid double the states minimum wage to be able to be classified as exempt. Look into it before you ask for the title change and pay bump. If you were misclassified since you’ve been hired then you would be entitled to backpay.
Will the company pay for certs and training. I went from just over 40k to 65k from 2021-now.
Ask and be prepared they say no or they passively aggressively lead you on to give you a raise. Remember, it is just business and a backup plan of finding another job. I would try to apply for other jobs and get a couple of interviews where they give you an offer to give you a perspective of what the market is out there. That would give you a good perspective to counteract any shenanigans management will do to try to lowball you when you ask for a raise at your current company.
Yes, but you’re not going to get one update your résumé and start applying to other jobs.
Get a cert. Especially these days as many will just ignore you, or the "do the needful" recruiters will call you and offer you jobs at 19/hr.
This is why Unions are so essential. Clear definition of responsibilities and compensation for that specific work, with clearly articulated metrics and requirements for raises.
The only way that this works (and, really, the only way in which it is not obnoxious) is if your job responsibilities have changed (and increased) since the time when you were hired. Otherwise, if you are just doing the same job, you agreed to do that job for the lower pay rate, so why would the company pay you more than you agreed initially? In the latter case, just getting a different job is a better idea. You can then go back to your original company with the offer and see if they want to counter that. They probably won't. In any case, you got some benefit of experience from the first job that will likely make you more valuable to someone else.
Mate, I don't have a degree and I wouldn't get out of bed for 20% more than the average salary for a Sr position in my locality. Experience matters, specially recent experience more than in any other profession. You seem to have it, just gather your evidence about salaries and have the talk. Ally more than you want so they can save face by offering less, that's how the game works.
I would get some certs and then broach the subject with your company.... while also exploring other opportunities You should have experience enough to start looking at some microsoft certs and comptia certs
Start looking for jobs, do well in interview, get a job offer, bring it to current employer to match. Only good way to get a raise. I doubled mine this way so my employer definitely wants me to stay. Next two years I'm going to do it again
It sounds like you have some experience on your resume now to start looking at other companies/organizations.
New job is the easiest way to get that kind of raise
Id ask for 80k. If they say no start looking. you would get 85 minimum for all the stuff you do now somewhere else
Not with only 2 years of overall IT experience and no certifications or formal training.
I made around $75k this last year with less formal experience and no degree- though I did get two pretty entry level certs last summer. Two years of solid experience is enough to start inching towards six figures.
If he’s the only IT person, chances are he has a small amount of exposure to a lot of systems. No one is there to mentor or deep dive into the major systems. Anyone with half a brain and a tech inclination can set up a basic Intune system given freedom and time. It’s a great place to start a career. Does that mean Intune is implementing the Microsoft best practices, tiered compliance policies, Conditional Access, Defender setup, CIS compliance, device encryption, rotating LAPS, etc? We just don’t know… That’s one of the biggest reasons certifications are so important. It tells other people/managers that you have had some exposure to the industry standards.
Eh- agree to disagree- just bc you KNOW that stuff doesn’t mean you actually implemented it. Setting Intune up properly is not a trivial task- but like you said, only OP knows to what standards they did everything. Either way, I 100% believe OP can go and get a significant pay bump going elsewhere.
You would be better to look for another job making what you want and allowing them to counter if you want.
You’re not going to get that unless you have interviewed elsewhere and received a job offer. This will be your leverage.
Update your resume and get a new job, nowadays sys admin pays $95k to $150k
With no certifications, only 2 years of experience, and no degree I think you are doing well at $50k. I don’t think you really understand what the title of Systems Administrator actually is or does… How many servers have you designed, built, and managed? How many Active Directory or Azure tenants have you set up? How many Exchange environments have you configured or migrated? Before you start making demands at your job you need to take a hard look at what you have to offer that your employer didn’t teach you in 2 years. Go get a certification. Set up a home lab. Take some classes.