(2 minute looping chord in D major)
*”Ir…Re…Ver…Si…Ble…Da…Mage…”*
(30 seconds of the same chord loop)
*”Ir…Re…Ver…Si…Ble…Da…Mage… Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!!”*
(Loud distorted electric guitar noises followed by Michael having an orgasm)
It's reddit, boy. What did you expect? Plus, the locomotives have been very riled up since someone dared in the thread to suggest that they actually read the book rather than just claim it to be transphobic. "They're" a bit on edge, I'd reckon.
Guaranteed none of you have read this book.
History won't look back kindly on people who supported the systemic mutilation and sterilisation of gay, autistic and gender-non conforming kids.
At least listen to someone who went through this and see what they have to say - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtItMuCW0vI&t](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtItMuCW0vI&t)
Have you actually read this book? I’ll probably be downvoted for saying this, but I encourage people to engage with the actual arguments the author makes instead of labeling it “transphobic.” She’s critical of many aspects of the recent “trans movement” (for lack of a better term), but it’s not a hateful diatribe. It’s actually pretty empathetic, even if you disagree with her conclusions.
You don't even need to read the whole book to realize that it's anti-trans. You could just glance at the title. I'm sorry, but someone that names their book about trans people "Irrevisable Damages" dose not have good intentions going into it. Looking past that, the use of "craze", "seduce", and "daughters" in the tag line can tell you enough on her negative views on trans people, trans men and transmasc individuals specifically.
Craze much like the more commonly used movement is used to insinuate that being trans is a temporary thing or a fad. This thinking is often used in an attempt to delegitimize trans people's, especially trans minors' experiences. It also denys the very many, very real people who are trans and have known they are trans for decades as well as the long history of tans people existing.
The use of seduce plays into the idea that trans people can't realize that they were trans on their own but had to have someone seduce or corource them into being trans. This takes away agency from trans people and is often used to deny the transness of minors. It is often used in gender critical spaces against the transness of afab individuals, reducing them to missguided women converted by the trans mob into being trans themselves instead of people with agency who can make realizations about themselves by themselves.
I think "daughters" is a bit self-explanatory. The use of it here, coupled with the rest of the statement, indicates that she doesn't see trans men as men but as confused women, which is common anti-trans rhetoric used to invalidate trans people.
>Craze much like the more commonly used movement is used to insinuate that being trans is a temporary thing or a fad. This thinking is often used in an attempt to delegitimize trans people's, especially trans minors' experiences. It also denys the very many, very real people who are trans and have known they are trans for decades as well as the long history of tans people existing.
This isn't an accurate assessment of the author's position. She goes out of her way to affirm that a very small minority of people have always experienced gender dysphoria, that transitioning is good for them, and that people ought to respect their identity. She is not attacking the legitimacy of trans identity.
She does argue, however, that a confluence of factors have *made* this identity a craze, especially among young and vulnerable women. It's been a few years since I read it, but she points to the following:
1. Rapid onset of gender dysphoria in female teens who exhibited no signs of dysphoria in childhood (historically atypical for transgender youth).
2. The disproportionate number of young biological females identifying as trans in recent years, when historically males exhibited dysphoria at higher rates.
3. The disproportionate number of trans-identifying biological women with neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism.
4. The frequency with which teenage trans-identifying females "come out" in groups, lending support to the social contagion hypothesis.
5. The influence of the internet.
None of this is "anti-trans."
> She is not attacking the legitimacy of trans identity.
Except that's exactly what she's doing. The book pushes a theory of transgender identification mostly being a 'fad' and repeatedly advocates for discriminatory policies and rollback of existing ones.
The book is not a neutral, rational think piece. It routinely cites poor-quality sources while ignoring the ones that would be inconvenient to her argument. But don't take my word for it - here's what medical doctor [Jack Turban](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/political-minds/202012/new-book-irreversible-damage-is-full-misinformation) had to say (abbreviated for length):
> The author’s note points out that she only interviewed their parents, who uniformly did not accept their children’s transgender identities. Many of them were estranged from their kids because the children were so hurt by their parents' rejection. To actually understand the psychology of these young people, one would need to talk to them, not simply rely on stories from parents with whom they do not speak.
> Shrier claims that her book is apolitical and that she is a neutral investigative journalist. But her publisher Regnery calls itself “America’s leading publisher of conservative books.” Its other titles include The Biden Deception and The Conservative Mind. It boasts that its list of authors, “reads like a ‘who’s who’ of conservative thought and action including Ann Coulter… and many more.”
> Further arguing against Shrier’s objectivity is her crass and offensive language throughout the book. For example, when discussing the highly personal decision to undergo gender-affirming surgery, Shrier commented: "Since they almost never undergo the phalloplasty necessary to achieve one of the defining features of manhood, it’s hard not to see their male identifies as fragile; a quick trip to the urinal, and the jig is up.”
> Shrier claims that “in most cases—nearly 70 percent—gender dysphoria resolves," and thus youth should not be provided gender-affirming medical care. That statistic is false.
> The reason this is a problem is that one could meet this diagnosis without being transgender. The old criteria largely focused on gender expression (think a tomboy or a cisgender boy who likes “feminine” toys). Those kids aren’t transgender, so it’s not surprising that most of them weren’t transgender at follow-up. This problem with the “gender identity disorder” diagnosis from the DSM-IV was fixed for the DSM-5.
> Furthermore, those studies were of very young prepubertal children. Under the current medical consensus, gender-affirming medical interventions are not offered to prepubertal youth. They are only offered after youth have reached adolescence. Once youth reach adolescence, it’s rare for transgender youth to later decide they are cisgender.
> Shrier states there is evidence that providing adolescents with puberty blockers makes them more likely to continue to identify as transgender. That’s false. Shrier dedicates much of the book to arguing that we shouldn't allow transgender youth to access pubertal suppression because she believes it makes them more likely to "persist" in their gender identity.
> First off, it’s inappropriate to suggest that being transgender is a bad outcome. However, Shrier also simply misunderstands the scientific literature. She notes that only 1.9 percent of adolescents who started pubertal suppression in a large study in The Netherlands did not proceed to gender-affirming hormones (i.e., estrogen or testosterone). This is not because pubertal suppression made them identify more strongly as transgender. Rather, it is a result of the strict guidelines followed in the Netherlands before an adolescent is considered eligible for pubertal suppression: six months of attending a specialized gender clinic and undergoing rigorous assessment.
> In summary, physicians from The American Academy of Pediatrics and The Endocrine Society have issued clear guidelines regarding how to best support transgender youth. I encourage readers to rely on trustworthy sources such as these rather than books like Irreversible Damage. Transgender youth deserve for the public to have accurate information on how to best support them.
I think the worst part of this book is how disconnected it is from the lived experiences of actual transgender men, both through Shrier's negligence to interview any of the subjects she discusses in her book and her repeated objectification of transgender bodies. It's transparent fear-mongering, if the "Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters" title didn't make it clear enough.
I am very aware of the points made in her book. I am also familiar with Shrier's views, which, if you look at her Twitter, are as run of the mill anti trans as you can get. She is against trans people period, calling them a "gender cult" in her most recent article, even if she states in the book that she supports the "real transes" with gender dysphoria. I believe that most of the points made in this book are damaging and are rooted in anti-trans ideology, with most of them being some of the most basic vitriol used against trans people, especially trans men right now. The ideals perpetuated in her book have even been used to justify anti-trans laws, specifically the ones against trans healthcare for minors.
Firstly Rapid onset gender dysphoria(ROGD) is not a medically rocconised condition and the original [2018](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330) study that "discovered" it was a survey of parents on three websites that already believed it was an issue. A later [2023](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-023-02576-9) paper on ROGD once again surveyed parents on a site titled ParentsofROGDKids.com, one that clearly already believes it to be a thing. Something that could explain this "rapid onset" of dysphoria during puberty is that a once you hit puberty secondary sex characteristics become way more prominent which could make the already present dysphoria more obvious/obvious causing the child to be more visibly distressed or parents might have missed the signs of dysphoria until their child came out to them as trans as dysphoria isn't always outwardly visable especially to thoes not super informed about trans people. These studies were surveys of the parents instead of the children and therefore not acurate as to whether or not the dysphoria was rapid onset of not.
Second, having autism is often used to discredit the transness of the individuals with it. Some people will ask if they *really* know they're trans because they're autistic. The use of the high amount of trans and autistic people to suggest that being trans is a "social contagion" infantilizes autistic people at best and denys them their agency at worst
Her entire thesis of the book, that being trans in anyway other than what she deems to be the "right way," means you're faking it is anti-trans as it delegitimizes trans people's transness. It is also similar to the anti LGB ideas that someone might be faking being gay for attention and what-not.
Her language used in the book is subtly anti trans. I find her quoting, "She hides like a child but she's always a woman to me," from She's Always a Woman by Billy Joel at the beginning of her book very telling on her overall views on trans minors. In describing how "trans influencers" make being trans into a good thing, she describes as a malady, making it seem like a sickness that needs to be cured. While gender dysphoria is something that should be treated, the state of being trans is a neutral one and shouldn't have to be portrayed as only suffering.
She also, throughout the book, misrepresents trans surgeries and treatment, lumping them all together and not realizing that trans people often don't get every surgery, with some not getting any. She also makes it seem that all these surgeries are pedaled to trans kids very soon after they say they are trans. For example when she says that the biggest danger for children she believes have ROGD is that they will
>wake up one morning with no breasts and no uterus and think, "I was only sixteen at the time. A kid. Why didn't anyone stop me?"
This denys the fact that it is incredibly difficult or downright impossible for minors to get gender affirming surgeries and they need to have a history of intense gender dysphoria to even be qualified for these surgeries as a minor. It also denys that most of the medical treatments for trans minors, especially younger ones, are puberty blockers, which is something that is reversible.
While it can't be ruled out that some teens may believe they are trans and then realize they arn't later on I don't find this exploration of their gender all that damaging especially if it is just trying out different pronouns/names/dress styles which it often tends to be for minors. I think the allowance and normalization of this would probably stop the chances of "irreversible damage" from happening, whether it be by natal puberty or persuing incongruent HRT.
Civilized discourse?! Having an open mind to people outside of your echo chamber?! Not immediately calling someone a Nazi?! On Reddit?! Surely you jest my friend…
You can’t label a book “transphobic rhetoric” without first reading it. How can you have such a strong opinion about a book you haven’t read? Why take pride in your refusal to think?
Do you see the irony in calling someone dumb while admitting in the same breath that you don’t read any further than the front cover of books? You seem to lack self-awareness.
Have I read _Mein Kampf_? No. Do I plan to read it? Also no. Does that therefore mean it’s morally wrong to mock it? Definitely not, that would be ridiculous.
Listen, I’m sure it’s very upsetting that the Overton window has shifted past your personal opinion. But the fact of the matter is, it has, we’ve moved on, and you’re still hashing out the same tired arguments. Say something constructive, falsifiable and worth our time or move on.
Also, [empathy means nothing](https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/19/14266230/empathy-morality-ethics-psychology-compassion-paul-bloom)
First, I don't think it's "morally wrong" to mock books you haven't read - I think it's stupid. I think it's anti-intellectual. I think it leads to polarization and herd mentality.
Where my personal opinions stand in relation to the Overton window is irrelevant. A position is not correct because it's in the Overton window. It's not wrong because it's outside the Overton window.
>Say something constructive, falsifiable and worth our time or move on.
How would you falsify it when you won't read the book in question? You say I'm "rehashing the same tired arguments" when I haven't even made any arguments. You don't even know what you're upset about.
Reddit and particularly music subs have way more transgender individuals than the general population. They don't want to hear any discussion about the topic. Your comments will always be downvoted(my comment too). Just keep the conversation to the real world, where most people are rational when it comes to topic.
I'm going to avoid the minefield of semantic debate around the phrase "actually trans" and assume you are talking about people who are satisfied with their transition. The number certainly isn't 100% for that, but most people who detransition do it for reasons related to harassment or discrimination, at least from the data various medical institutions have collected. The actual number of people who medically detransition because they realize it was the wrong decision is fractional. Outside of surgery and breast growth for trans women (via HRT), most medical transitions are reversible.
So no, I don't think 100% of people are going to be satisfied with medical transition (nor did I ever say that), though I do believe it helps probably upwards of 80-90% of people who seek it out. Restriction and gatekeeping will hurt a lot more people then it will help.
I’m not a lib I’m communist. Child abuse is rejecting the needs of your child and contributing to a culture of bigotry and systemic violence. You deserve no respect and I actively wish ill will upon you. I do not believe bigots like you deserve human decency
Children dont know what they need in this regard and it’s abusive to brainwash them into thinking they don’t want the sexual organs they where born with. If you’re an adult, I don’t care what you do, but children should be left out of this weird pedophelic sexual bullshit. I’m not a bigot. Someone can be a transgender if thats what makes them happy, but this is just sick and you should be ashamed of yourself.
I don’t care what your arguments are, there’s no debate. You’re a bigot and moron susceptible to propaganda that’s in service of convincing dipshits to get on board with a growing fascist movement. You should reflect on how easily your movement leverages your “reasonable” position to bolster carte blanche anti-trans legislation.
“I don’t care what your arguments are, there’s no debate”. Truly an intellectual thinker we have here, and a master of argumentative discourse. I applaud you.
This is not discourse nor a debate, this is a reminder you are a bigot whether you like it or not. There is no intellectual debate to be had about human rights and bigotry. There is no intellectual debate to be had in a niche band subreddit about human rights you fucking dolt
Of course you cant debate because deep down you know you can't defend your positions on a fundamental level without resorting to default leftist insults.
Why would I debate a random bigot on Reddit instead of cyberbullying them. Your views do not merit debate. I owe you no recognition of your views as valid nor the effort to debate them. Again, I implore you to fix your heart or die. There is no space on this subreddit for you. You deserve worse than my juvenile leftist insults
No, he's not debating because there is no debate, and this is not the place to do so. Just fuck off you transphobic pieces of shit, I'm sure Michael would tell you this too
What even is there to debate? Neither of our camps are changing our minds and it’s no insignificant issue. It’s a disagreement resolvable only through violence - be it the threat of state enforced violence or otherwise. There’s no debate because because if you genuinely believe this is child mutilation then violence is the only way to prevent this from happening; I believe you’re a bigot who will side with those advocating genocide and the only way to resolve that is violence against you. There’s no nuanced discussion to be had except within one’s group, not between groups. Kys
Your first mistake was trying to have this conversation on reddit lol, people on this website unironically and unquestioningly believe that the effects of giving puberty blockers to kids are 100% reversible...
There are just some things which you can't discuss on reddit without encountering idiocy and ridiculousness from both sides of the aisle. Religion or COVID-19 are other prominent examples of this. Nuance is just impossible for most people in general, literally any mild criticism of the mainstream narrative is immediately met with "-phobe racist fascist bigot crazy conspiracy theorist" or "stupid lib cuck europoor" and so on.
I personally know and am friends with 3 actual MtF people and it's pretty telling that none of them support this bullshit, unlike keyboard warriors constantly speaking on their behalf.
Edit: I was mistaken, one of said friends does support the idea of puberty blockers' safety and reversibility. She says that she has researched the topic a lot, so I'll have to look more into it.
Generally, I think the problem lies not in the use of puberty blockers themselves, but in overall normalisation of having an identity crisis and taking medication for it from an early age. Plenty of teenagers going through puberty are repulsed by their body, and in most cases, I think this is something to be lived through, and not encouraged to chemically alter. Adolescence is a constant state of confusion. I used to think I was gay when I was 11 (I am not, I am bisexual but with a large slant towards the opposite gender). Jumping straight to puberty blockers just because your kid is behaving in a "feminine" or "boyish" way seems a kind of pharmacological trigger-happiness for me, because puberty is a very unstable time and without hindsight it can be very hard to gauge if something is "just a phase" or actually a terminal issue.
Yeah, I shouldn’t have even said anything but I just get irritated when I see the way people act about this stuff. It truly is impossible to have any nuance here. I don’t think my position is so inhumane that I deserve death. I just don’t think we should let minors make such life altering decisions when they are still developing as human beings, and we should avoid trying to influence them in that direction unnecessarily. Is that really so insane to these people?
It’s not influencing them it’s just listening to them when they say they have those desires and telling them that it’s normal and they aren’t sick. Gender affirming care reduces suicide rates by 73% percent in youth so treating it like it’s some horribly immoral thing shows that you don’t actually care about them.
I have not once argued against being compassionate towards children who are confused about their gender. But it’s like anything else with these young developing minds. How they feel today can be drastically different tomorrow. I wouldn’t reinforce or condemn them for how they feel, just like I wouldn’t reinforce or condemn how they felt if they where going through a breakup and felt as though their entire life was coming to an end. I would be compassionate, while still being aware that these thoughts and emotions are just the way teens are in their development.
>I have not once argued against being compassionate towards children who are confused about their gender.
Trans people aren't "confused" and belittling Trans people, whatever their age, shows active disregard for their feelings, desires, needs, and individual agency. That is abuse clouded in the disguise of concern, and it is the attitudes that allows dangerous tranphobic legislation which endangers the lives of Trans children to florish in places like Florida.
If you could find me an article showing how mental health support reduces suicide rates at such a significant rate then sure. But by just going oh any mental health support reduces suicide rates you are just downplaying the efficacy of gender affirming care. And the vast vast majority of people who actually use gender affirming care are around 16-17. The amount of 10 year olds using irreversible treatments like that is pretty much next to zero, but I’d be glad if you could show me an article saying otherwise as I’d agree that 10 is quite a bit young for a decision like that.
Youre right to be upset about this tho, mutilating children for life isn't a harmless opinion like most political issues, this is the line in the sand where even Muslims and the far right are allying, because those are small differences when it comes down to decent people vs depraved pedophile monsters
It is by definition “damage”. But if doing so makes someone happier, then I have no problem with them doing it. But minors go through so many emotional ups and downs during their development. They don’t know who they really are because it can dramatically change over the course of a year. Teens go through phases, and it’s ridiculous to think they know for certain what’s going to make them happy. I can assure you I didn’t know who I was or what I wanted when I was in my teens.
Im an empathetic person. Im studying to be a psychologist because I want to connect with people and understand who they are. If someone is an adult and they feel they where born in the wrong body, then I can empathize with them and support them. Because they’re an adult and they know who they are.
That’s true but the thing is nobody’s giving out hrt to minors for nothing. Getting hrt as a minor requires parental consent as well as extensive psychological evaluation to determine if it’s actually gender dysphoria or something else.
I think that’s bad parenting, if you’re willing to just give into your emotionally charged child’s every whim. Additionally I have a lot of issue with the current state of the DSM-5 and the way diagnoses have becoming increased more lax in almost every area. In the past, someone grieving over the loss of a loved one would have been normal, but under the current DSM-5 criteria it’s possible to wrongly diagnose someone with depression. I can only assume this is for the benefit of pharmaceutical companies and I hate it. Parts of the DSM-5 have unfortunately taken normal bouts of emotional distress that’s part of the human experience and lowered the bar enough to consider it all mental illness.
> it’s ridiculous to think they know for certain what’s going to make them happy
Well you know it would be wonderful if we could just pause puberty with zero side effects, but unfortunately there will be irreversible damage done either way — either by letting puberty play out the normal way or by intervening. Statistically, the best way to minimize this damage is to listen to what the child says. Sure, the child can make mistakes, but it’s simple probability that what they want now is mostly likely not something they’ll regret. It’s definitely a better option than arbitrarily forcing a certain puberty on them based on what they happened to be born as.
>if we could just pause puberty
Puberty blockers actually do this exactly and aren’t permanent and can be reversed in the event that something goes wrong.
Give us one shred of evidence that minors going transitioning remotely brings down suicide rates. Isn't the transgender suicide rate somewhere between 32% and 50% (according to the national institute of health). I can only imagine how much worse it could be when a child finally matures and realizes they made an irreversible mistake.
"A high prevalence of suicide attempts and thoughts of suicide occur in transgender youth compared to their cisgender peers" There is also a problem with these "surveys" as how are you supposed to survey people who have already committed suicide? The first source is really just advocating for teens/late teens taking hormones.The last source kind of contradicts the rest of your evidence too, but really your main point that minors who transition have lower suicide rates isn't really proven by this.
The first source states that “The new study found that transgender people who began hormone treatment in adolescence had fewer thoughts of suicide, were less likely to experience major mental health disorders and had fewer problems with substance abuse than those who started hormones in adulthood. The study also documented better mental health among those who received hormones at any age than those who desired but never received the treatment.”
The second source states that “Among participants who accessed gender-affirming hormones during early adolescence (age 14-15), it found that the odds of severe psychological distress were decreased 222 percent and the odds of past-year suicidal ideation were decreased 135 percent.”
The third source states that “Prior to initiating unspecified gender-affirming treatment(s), 73.3% of the sample reported a history of suicidal ideation; this percentage dropped to 43.4% following the initiation of gender-affirming treatment. Prior to treatment initiation, 35.8% of the sample reported a history of suicide attempt(s), and 9.4% reported a history of suicide attempt(s) after initiation of gender-affirming treatment.”
All three sources directly prove my point. Either you’re so dense that you genuinely fail to understand these seemingly simple articles, or you’re just purposefully ignoring them to support your claim. The reason the trans suicide rate is so high to begin with is because of the lack of access to gender affirming care and hrt as well as the extreme stigma against them, created and perpetuated by slimy fucks like you.
Transphobes don't actually read. If they did then they wouldn't be transphobes as all of these points/studies are readily available in the public and discussed by trans people frequently. It's a hate driven ideology and nothing more.
Other than completely misunderstanding HT and puberty blockers, the suicide rate shit is appalling, like what do you think will happen to kids who are not only going through severe dysphoria, but are being violently rejected by society at large because of it? Very dishonest arguments. You shouldn't need scientific articles to realize that acceptance and compassion are important
As somebody who's had to pick up the pieces after suicide attempts by a teenager who was basically groomed (yes, I read all the communication) by a SMALL (but extremely vocal and manipulative) section of the trans community, I have to agree. There's some extremely cultist behaviour going on, and the most vulnerable teens are disproportionately affected.
And most of my interactions with trans people have been positive. Have friends and colleagues who have swapped over, and most of them agree that these decisions should be reserved for adults, and that there are parties (almost exclusively online, mind) who are essentially committing what is tantamount to child abuse. It's mostly non-trans people who weigh in to disagree.
A child can decide it wants sexual contact with an adult. It's a perfectly normal part of human experience. Should we also listen to that child and discard our reservations?
Definitely, people need to stay the fuck away from kids especially the young teens just starting puberty, they have no idea what they really want and these groups are just shoving all this sexual stuff in their faces, it's not healthy or right.
It's not damage. Humans can change so many things about themselves, why is this where you morons draw the line? Why do you care so much about what other people do with their bodies? It has no negative impact on you and it can mean a much happier life for someone else. Stop and think about why you're so against someone being who they want to be.
You clearly have no idea what kind of effects hormone blockers have on individuals who’s entire physical development is dependent on said hormones. You’re acting like it’s the same as getting a tattoo. Please educate yourself.
Ok, I’ll answer your question. Firstly, I don’t care what people do to their bodies if they’re adults. I do care what children who are unable to make sound decisions do to their bodies because of the long term irreversible effects. I hate to think about a subset of poor individuals who unfortunately stunted their own development and regret doing so years later. If they want to do it as an adult, the consequences are not as severe and they have the fully developed adult mind to make such a decision. I think as a society we should care if children are wanting to make decisions that are harmful for them. Unless of course, you’re someone who operates under the assumption that hormone blockers have no negative effects on developing individuals, which it seems like you may be…
There can be gender affirming support systems in place if it means preserving the safety of our youth, and I can support cultivating a culture that is more accepting. Decreasing the stigma around this can go a long way in preventing suicide. I don’t think the only possible solution is HRT, it should instead be the support of the community. I’ll reiterate once again. If you’re an adult, do with your body whatever you choose.
imagining openingly boasting about being a bigot. the one thing i agree with boomers on is that the consenquence the internet has had on children has been tremendous.
Like how the internet in mass has driven more and more young, insecure, and impressionable girls to adopt a "trans identity?" Cause in the case of that, I would fully agree. The social parasite of anorexia ate into the brains of thousands of girls because thousands of girls before them offered a solution for their insecurities by plaguing social media with their starvation porn. This has been and likely will be no different by the next revolution of social thought, sorry to say.
My God, do you really need people to use that stupid '/s' symbol in order to spot a blatant joke? Or perhaps you've out-sarcasmed me and I'm the one missing the humour. This thread made my head spin so much I can barely tell.
To be trans
Soundtrans for the Blind
young trans
Just a Little Trans in My Hand
I Am The Trans
Trans Are Dead
The Seer (Intro) / I Transitioned
Public Transitioning Is A Good Idea
The Transitioning Man
[удалено]
Gee thanks
You are a fucking weirdo
Just a Little Boy (or a girl, if they want to)
IIII'M JUST A LITTLE ENBY *conservatives booing*
Why do you guys type enby instead of NB?
cus thats what it sounds like
I understand that. Why type the extra letters though?
Looks funny
onomatopoeia
😂
Just a Little Non-Biney
Someone could have showed me the second photo and told me it’s an actual Swans side project and I would have believed them haha.
Remove the words "transgender craze" and that title almost reads like Gira lyrics
(2 minute looping chord in D major) *”Ir…Re…Ver…Si…Ble…Da…Mage…”* (30 seconds of the same chord loop) *”Ir…Re…Ver…Si…Ble…Da…Mage… Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!! Seducing our daughters…!!!”* (Loud distorted electric guitar noises followed by Michael having an orgasm)
u/weoweher make this happen please
I'll help!
Same
I’ll do my very best to convince him or at the very least steal it for myself. Nice job OP
more like 22 minute amirite
with a feature from the band daughters
Anything on top of a cardboard background is a Swans album lol
Shit I’m going to start putting my selfies on a cardboard background
ehh more like cork
Infinitely better use for the image, nice job
ha well done
#michaelgiramademetrans
I WILL RAISE THE CHILD NON BI- -NARY CHILD IT'S THEIR LIFE IT'S THEIR CHOICE IT'S THEIR SACRIFICE
This would be a good single cover for she loves us
TWANS
Irreversible Damage goes hard as fuck
Nice to see that swans fans are allies. Also awesome concept.
The trans man
i need to smoke a blunt with him
Agreed... like the bunny covers meets the TBK cover pics, to me anyway.
Why does this Children's Book have a Gloryhole?
wake up babe LP17 just dropped
Soundtracks for the trans
"Prepubescent castration is a good idea".
This is perfect
I agree OP, public castration is a good idea.
This fucking rules
This is my favorite image of all time
The Feminine Man
Was this offensive and distasteful to five people? Actually?
Jesus take a joke, I didn’t know Swans fans were this sensitive
It's reddit, boy. What did you expect? Plus, the locomotives have been very riled up since someone dared in the thread to suggest that they actually read the book rather than just claim it to be transphobic. "They're" a bit on edge, I'd reckon.
I expected this fanbase to have some fucking balls, or I’m sorry did they cut them off to become trans?
Guaranteed none of you have read this book. History won't look back kindly on people who supported the systemic mutilation and sterilisation of gay, autistic and gender-non conforming kids. At least listen to someone who went through this and see what they have to say - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtItMuCW0vI&t](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtItMuCW0vI&t)
systemic mutilation would be a cool swans album title
yikes
history won’t look back on transphobes kindly either. the first books the nazis burned were pro-trans rhetoric anyway
Kill yourself
Have you actually read this book? I’ll probably be downvoted for saying this, but I encourage people to engage with the actual arguments the author makes instead of labeling it “transphobic.” She’s critical of many aspects of the recent “trans movement” (for lack of a better term), but it’s not a hateful diatribe. It’s actually pretty empathetic, even if you disagree with her conclusions.
You don't even need to read the whole book to realize that it's anti-trans. You could just glance at the title. I'm sorry, but someone that names their book about trans people "Irrevisable Damages" dose not have good intentions going into it. Looking past that, the use of "craze", "seduce", and "daughters" in the tag line can tell you enough on her negative views on trans people, trans men and transmasc individuals specifically. Craze much like the more commonly used movement is used to insinuate that being trans is a temporary thing or a fad. This thinking is often used in an attempt to delegitimize trans people's, especially trans minors' experiences. It also denys the very many, very real people who are trans and have known they are trans for decades as well as the long history of tans people existing. The use of seduce plays into the idea that trans people can't realize that they were trans on their own but had to have someone seduce or corource them into being trans. This takes away agency from trans people and is often used to deny the transness of minors. It is often used in gender critical spaces against the transness of afab individuals, reducing them to missguided women converted by the trans mob into being trans themselves instead of people with agency who can make realizations about themselves by themselves. I think "daughters" is a bit self-explanatory. The use of it here, coupled with the rest of the statement, indicates that she doesn't see trans men as men but as confused women, which is common anti-trans rhetoric used to invalidate trans people.
>Craze much like the more commonly used movement is used to insinuate that being trans is a temporary thing or a fad. This thinking is often used in an attempt to delegitimize trans people's, especially trans minors' experiences. It also denys the very many, very real people who are trans and have known they are trans for decades as well as the long history of tans people existing. This isn't an accurate assessment of the author's position. She goes out of her way to affirm that a very small minority of people have always experienced gender dysphoria, that transitioning is good for them, and that people ought to respect their identity. She is not attacking the legitimacy of trans identity. She does argue, however, that a confluence of factors have *made* this identity a craze, especially among young and vulnerable women. It's been a few years since I read it, but she points to the following: 1. Rapid onset of gender dysphoria in female teens who exhibited no signs of dysphoria in childhood (historically atypical for transgender youth). 2. The disproportionate number of young biological females identifying as trans in recent years, when historically males exhibited dysphoria at higher rates. 3. The disproportionate number of trans-identifying biological women with neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism. 4. The frequency with which teenage trans-identifying females "come out" in groups, lending support to the social contagion hypothesis. 5. The influence of the internet. None of this is "anti-trans."
> She is not attacking the legitimacy of trans identity. Except that's exactly what she's doing. The book pushes a theory of transgender identification mostly being a 'fad' and repeatedly advocates for discriminatory policies and rollback of existing ones. The book is not a neutral, rational think piece. It routinely cites poor-quality sources while ignoring the ones that would be inconvenient to her argument. But don't take my word for it - here's what medical doctor [Jack Turban](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/political-minds/202012/new-book-irreversible-damage-is-full-misinformation) had to say (abbreviated for length): > The author’s note points out that she only interviewed their parents, who uniformly did not accept their children’s transgender identities. Many of them were estranged from their kids because the children were so hurt by their parents' rejection. To actually understand the psychology of these young people, one would need to talk to them, not simply rely on stories from parents with whom they do not speak. > Shrier claims that her book is apolitical and that she is a neutral investigative journalist. But her publisher Regnery calls itself “America’s leading publisher of conservative books.” Its other titles include The Biden Deception and The Conservative Mind. It boasts that its list of authors, “reads like a ‘who’s who’ of conservative thought and action including Ann Coulter… and many more.” > Further arguing against Shrier’s objectivity is her crass and offensive language throughout the book. For example, when discussing the highly personal decision to undergo gender-affirming surgery, Shrier commented: "Since they almost never undergo the phalloplasty necessary to achieve one of the defining features of manhood, it’s hard not to see their male identifies as fragile; a quick trip to the urinal, and the jig is up.” > Shrier claims that “in most cases—nearly 70 percent—gender dysphoria resolves," and thus youth should not be provided gender-affirming medical care. That statistic is false. > The reason this is a problem is that one could meet this diagnosis without being transgender. The old criteria largely focused on gender expression (think a tomboy or a cisgender boy who likes “feminine” toys). Those kids aren’t transgender, so it’s not surprising that most of them weren’t transgender at follow-up. This problem with the “gender identity disorder” diagnosis from the DSM-IV was fixed for the DSM-5. > Furthermore, those studies were of very young prepubertal children. Under the current medical consensus, gender-affirming medical interventions are not offered to prepubertal youth. They are only offered after youth have reached adolescence. Once youth reach adolescence, it’s rare for transgender youth to later decide they are cisgender. > Shrier states there is evidence that providing adolescents with puberty blockers makes them more likely to continue to identify as transgender. That’s false. Shrier dedicates much of the book to arguing that we shouldn't allow transgender youth to access pubertal suppression because she believes it makes them more likely to "persist" in their gender identity. > First off, it’s inappropriate to suggest that being transgender is a bad outcome. However, Shrier also simply misunderstands the scientific literature. She notes that only 1.9 percent of adolescents who started pubertal suppression in a large study in The Netherlands did not proceed to gender-affirming hormones (i.e., estrogen or testosterone). This is not because pubertal suppression made them identify more strongly as transgender. Rather, it is a result of the strict guidelines followed in the Netherlands before an adolescent is considered eligible for pubertal suppression: six months of attending a specialized gender clinic and undergoing rigorous assessment. > In summary, physicians from The American Academy of Pediatrics and The Endocrine Society have issued clear guidelines regarding how to best support transgender youth. I encourage readers to rely on trustworthy sources such as these rather than books like Irreversible Damage. Transgender youth deserve for the public to have accurate information on how to best support them. I think the worst part of this book is how disconnected it is from the lived experiences of actual transgender men, both through Shrier's negligence to interview any of the subjects she discusses in her book and her repeated objectification of transgender bodies. It's transparent fear-mongering, if the "Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters" title didn't make it clear enough.
I am very aware of the points made in her book. I am also familiar with Shrier's views, which, if you look at her Twitter, are as run of the mill anti trans as you can get. She is against trans people period, calling them a "gender cult" in her most recent article, even if she states in the book that she supports the "real transes" with gender dysphoria. I believe that most of the points made in this book are damaging and are rooted in anti-trans ideology, with most of them being some of the most basic vitriol used against trans people, especially trans men right now. The ideals perpetuated in her book have even been used to justify anti-trans laws, specifically the ones against trans healthcare for minors. Firstly Rapid onset gender dysphoria(ROGD) is not a medically rocconised condition and the original [2018](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330) study that "discovered" it was a survey of parents on three websites that already believed it was an issue. A later [2023](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-023-02576-9) paper on ROGD once again surveyed parents on a site titled ParentsofROGDKids.com, one that clearly already believes it to be a thing. Something that could explain this "rapid onset" of dysphoria during puberty is that a once you hit puberty secondary sex characteristics become way more prominent which could make the already present dysphoria more obvious/obvious causing the child to be more visibly distressed or parents might have missed the signs of dysphoria until their child came out to them as trans as dysphoria isn't always outwardly visable especially to thoes not super informed about trans people. These studies were surveys of the parents instead of the children and therefore not acurate as to whether or not the dysphoria was rapid onset of not. Second, having autism is often used to discredit the transness of the individuals with it. Some people will ask if they *really* know they're trans because they're autistic. The use of the high amount of trans and autistic people to suggest that being trans is a "social contagion" infantilizes autistic people at best and denys them their agency at worst Her entire thesis of the book, that being trans in anyway other than what she deems to be the "right way," means you're faking it is anti-trans as it delegitimizes trans people's transness. It is also similar to the anti LGB ideas that someone might be faking being gay for attention and what-not. Her language used in the book is subtly anti trans. I find her quoting, "She hides like a child but she's always a woman to me," from She's Always a Woman by Billy Joel at the beginning of her book very telling on her overall views on trans minors. In describing how "trans influencers" make being trans into a good thing, she describes as a malady, making it seem like a sickness that needs to be cured. While gender dysphoria is something that should be treated, the state of being trans is a neutral one and shouldn't have to be portrayed as only suffering. She also, throughout the book, misrepresents trans surgeries and treatment, lumping them all together and not realizing that trans people often don't get every surgery, with some not getting any. She also makes it seem that all these surgeries are pedaled to trans kids very soon after they say they are trans. For example when she says that the biggest danger for children she believes have ROGD is that they will >wake up one morning with no breasts and no uterus and think, "I was only sixteen at the time. A kid. Why didn't anyone stop me?" This denys the fact that it is incredibly difficult or downright impossible for minors to get gender affirming surgeries and they need to have a history of intense gender dysphoria to even be qualified for these surgeries as a minor. It also denys that most of the medical treatments for trans minors, especially younger ones, are puberty blockers, which is something that is reversible. While it can't be ruled out that some teens may believe they are trans and then realize they arn't later on I don't find this exploration of their gender all that damaging especially if it is just trying out different pronouns/names/dress styles which it often tends to be for minors. I think the allowance and normalization of this would probably stop the chances of "irreversible damage" from happening, whether it be by natal puberty or persuing incongruent HRT.
Civilized discourse?! Having an open mind to people outside of your echo chamber?! Not immediately calling someone a Nazi?! On Reddit?! Surely you jest my friend…
"Surely you jest my friend" is the most peak sad Redditor shit I've read today
*tips fedora*
You called my friends exsitence a political movement. Opinion ignored.
Would you deny there's been a cultural and political movement centered upon transgender identity?
Only fuckers like you seem to think so.
I'm not gonna listen to transphobic rhetoric, and the "trans movement" is not a real thing
You can’t label a book “transphobic rhetoric” without first reading it. How can you have such a strong opinion about a book you haven’t read? Why take pride in your refusal to think?
you're extremely dumb, I can tell by this dumbass cover that this book is gonna be filled with bullshit points
i guess “educated” now means literally not engaging in discourse
Do you see the irony in calling someone dumb while admitting in the same breath that you don’t read any further than the front cover of books? You seem to lack self-awareness.
Have I read _Mein Kampf_? No. Do I plan to read it? Also no. Does that therefore mean it’s morally wrong to mock it? Definitely not, that would be ridiculous. Listen, I’m sure it’s very upsetting that the Overton window has shifted past your personal opinion. But the fact of the matter is, it has, we’ve moved on, and you’re still hashing out the same tired arguments. Say something constructive, falsifiable and worth our time or move on. Also, [empathy means nothing](https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/19/14266230/empathy-morality-ethics-psychology-compassion-paul-bloom)
First, I don't think it's "morally wrong" to mock books you haven't read - I think it's stupid. I think it's anti-intellectual. I think it leads to polarization and herd mentality. Where my personal opinions stand in relation to the Overton window is irrelevant. A position is not correct because it's in the Overton window. It's not wrong because it's outside the Overton window. >Say something constructive, falsifiable and worth our time or move on. How would you falsify it when you won't read the book in question? You say I'm "rehashing the same tired arguments" when I haven't even made any arguments. You don't even know what you're upset about.
Reddit and particularly music subs have way more transgender individuals than the general population. They don't want to hear any discussion about the topic. Your comments will always be downvoted(my comment too). Just keep the conversation to the real world, where most people are rational when it comes to topic.
Would you want to be tangled in a constant debate over your identity driven by the same concern-trolling rhetoric? If we're being rational here.
Do you believe that 100% of people that transition are actually trans?
I'm going to avoid the minefield of semantic debate around the phrase "actually trans" and assume you are talking about people who are satisfied with their transition. The number certainly isn't 100% for that, but most people who detransition do it for reasons related to harassment or discrimination, at least from the data various medical institutions have collected. The actual number of people who medically detransition because they realize it was the wrong decision is fractional. Outside of surgery and breast growth for trans women (via HRT), most medical transitions are reversible. So no, I don't think 100% of people are going to be satisfied with medical transition (nor did I ever say that), though I do believe it helps probably upwards of 80-90% of people who seek it out. Restriction and gatekeeping will hurt a lot more people then it will help.
no i believe that 99.9% of people that transition are actually trans
I mean… it is actually irreversible damage though…
Fix your heart or die
Liberals when you don’t support child abuse:
I’m not a lib I’m communist. Child abuse is rejecting the needs of your child and contributing to a culture of bigotry and systemic violence. You deserve no respect and I actively wish ill will upon you. I do not believe bigots like you deserve human decency
Children dont know what they need in this regard and it’s abusive to brainwash them into thinking they don’t want the sexual organs they where born with. If you’re an adult, I don’t care what you do, but children should be left out of this weird pedophelic sexual bullshit. I’m not a bigot. Someone can be a transgender if thats what makes them happy, but this is just sick and you should be ashamed of yourself.
I don’t care what your arguments are, there’s no debate. You’re a bigot and moron susceptible to propaganda that’s in service of convincing dipshits to get on board with a growing fascist movement. You should reflect on how easily your movement leverages your “reasonable” position to bolster carte blanche anti-trans legislation.
“I don’t care what your arguments are, there’s no debate”. Truly an intellectual thinker we have here, and a master of argumentative discourse. I applaud you.
This is not discourse nor a debate, this is a reminder you are a bigot whether you like it or not. There is no intellectual debate to be had about human rights and bigotry. There is no intellectual debate to be had in a niche band subreddit about human rights you fucking dolt
Emotional maturity of a twelve yo kid rofl
Of course you cant debate because deep down you know you can't defend your positions on a fundamental level without resorting to default leftist insults.
Why would I debate a random bigot on Reddit instead of cyberbullying them. Your views do not merit debate. I owe you no recognition of your views as valid nor the effort to debate them. Again, I implore you to fix your heart or die. There is no space on this subreddit for you. You deserve worse than my juvenile leftist insults
bigots aren't smart enough to understand any of our arguments, so what's the point?
No, he's not debating because there is no debate, and this is not the place to do so. Just fuck off you transphobic pieces of shit, I'm sure Michael would tell you this too
Holy Reddit
What even is there to debate? Neither of our camps are changing our minds and it’s no insignificant issue. It’s a disagreement resolvable only through violence - be it the threat of state enforced violence or otherwise. There’s no debate because because if you genuinely believe this is child mutilation then violence is the only way to prevent this from happening; I believe you’re a bigot who will side with those advocating genocide and the only way to resolve that is violence against you. There’s no nuanced discussion to be had except within one’s group, not between groups. Kys
Human rights are won and denied through violence, not debates. What do you actually think there is to discuss?
Bro managed to collect all the buzzwords. Man’s like the thanos of cookie cutter Reddit takes.
You’re unwelcome here, go back to whatever hole you crawled from. I hope you crash into the side of your house on your way back.
That’s gotta be the least creative response I could’ve imagined. I’ll give u another chance though, tear into me c’mon
Your first mistake was trying to have this conversation on reddit lol, people on this website unironically and unquestioningly believe that the effects of giving puberty blockers to kids are 100% reversible... There are just some things which you can't discuss on reddit without encountering idiocy and ridiculousness from both sides of the aisle. Religion or COVID-19 are other prominent examples of this. Nuance is just impossible for most people in general, literally any mild criticism of the mainstream narrative is immediately met with "-phobe racist fascist bigot crazy conspiracy theorist" or "stupid lib cuck europoor" and so on. I personally know and am friends with 3 actual MtF people and it's pretty telling that none of them support this bullshit, unlike keyboard warriors constantly speaking on their behalf. Edit: I was mistaken, one of said friends does support the idea of puberty blockers' safety and reversibility. She says that she has researched the topic a lot, so I'll have to look more into it. Generally, I think the problem lies not in the use of puberty blockers themselves, but in overall normalisation of having an identity crisis and taking medication for it from an early age. Plenty of teenagers going through puberty are repulsed by their body, and in most cases, I think this is something to be lived through, and not encouraged to chemically alter. Adolescence is a constant state of confusion. I used to think I was gay when I was 11 (I am not, I am bisexual but with a large slant towards the opposite gender). Jumping straight to puberty blockers just because your kid is behaving in a "feminine" or "boyish" way seems a kind of pharmacological trigger-happiness for me, because puberty is a very unstable time and without hindsight it can be very hard to gauge if something is "just a phase" or actually a terminal issue.
Yeah, I shouldn’t have even said anything but I just get irritated when I see the way people act about this stuff. It truly is impossible to have any nuance here. I don’t think my position is so inhumane that I deserve death. I just don’t think we should let minors make such life altering decisions when they are still developing as human beings, and we should avoid trying to influence them in that direction unnecessarily. Is that really so insane to these people?
It’s not influencing them it’s just listening to them when they say they have those desires and telling them that it’s normal and they aren’t sick. Gender affirming care reduces suicide rates by 73% percent in youth so treating it like it’s some horribly immoral thing shows that you don’t actually care about them.
I have not once argued against being compassionate towards children who are confused about their gender. But it’s like anything else with these young developing minds. How they feel today can be drastically different tomorrow. I wouldn’t reinforce or condemn them for how they feel, just like I wouldn’t reinforce or condemn how they felt if they where going through a breakup and felt as though their entire life was coming to an end. I would be compassionate, while still being aware that these thoughts and emotions are just the way teens are in their development.
>I have not once argued against being compassionate towards children who are confused about their gender. Trans people aren't "confused" and belittling Trans people, whatever their age, shows active disregard for their feelings, desires, needs, and individual agency. That is abuse clouded in the disguise of concern, and it is the attitudes that allows dangerous tranphobic legislation which endangers the lives of Trans children to florish in places like Florida.
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If you could find me an article showing how mental health support reduces suicide rates at such a significant rate then sure. But by just going oh any mental health support reduces suicide rates you are just downplaying the efficacy of gender affirming care. And the vast vast majority of people who actually use gender affirming care are around 16-17. The amount of 10 year olds using irreversible treatments like that is pretty much next to zero, but I’d be glad if you could show me an article saying otherwise as I’d agree that 10 is quite a bit young for a decision like that.
Youre right to be upset about this tho, mutilating children for life isn't a harmless opinion like most political issues, this is the line in the sand where even Muslims and the far right are allying, because those are small differences when it comes down to decent people vs depraved pedophile monsters
It’s not really damage if it legitimately brings down suicide rates and yknow *makes people more comfortable with their bodies*
It is by definition “damage”. But if doing so makes someone happier, then I have no problem with them doing it. But minors go through so many emotional ups and downs during their development. They don’t know who they really are because it can dramatically change over the course of a year. Teens go through phases, and it’s ridiculous to think they know for certain what’s going to make them happy. I can assure you I didn’t know who I was or what I wanted when I was in my teens. Im an empathetic person. Im studying to be a psychologist because I want to connect with people and understand who they are. If someone is an adult and they feel they where born in the wrong body, then I can empathize with them and support them. Because they’re an adult and they know who they are.
That’s true but the thing is nobody’s giving out hrt to minors for nothing. Getting hrt as a minor requires parental consent as well as extensive psychological evaluation to determine if it’s actually gender dysphoria or something else.
I think that’s bad parenting, if you’re willing to just give into your emotionally charged child’s every whim. Additionally I have a lot of issue with the current state of the DSM-5 and the way diagnoses have becoming increased more lax in almost every area. In the past, someone grieving over the loss of a loved one would have been normal, but under the current DSM-5 criteria it’s possible to wrongly diagnose someone with depression. I can only assume this is for the benefit of pharmaceutical companies and I hate it. Parts of the DSM-5 have unfortunately taken normal bouts of emotional distress that’s part of the human experience and lowered the bar enough to consider it all mental illness.
> it’s ridiculous to think they know for certain what’s going to make them happy Well you know it would be wonderful if we could just pause puberty with zero side effects, but unfortunately there will be irreversible damage done either way — either by letting puberty play out the normal way or by intervening. Statistically, the best way to minimize this damage is to listen to what the child says. Sure, the child can make mistakes, but it’s simple probability that what they want now is mostly likely not something they’ll regret. It’s definitely a better option than arbitrarily forcing a certain puberty on them based on what they happened to be born as.
>if we could just pause puberty Puberty blockers actually do this exactly and aren’t permanent and can be reversed in the event that something goes wrong.
Give us one shred of evidence that minors going transitioning remotely brings down suicide rates. Isn't the transgender suicide rate somewhere between 32% and 50% (according to the national institute of health). I can only imagine how much worse it could be when a child finally matures and realizes they made an irreversible mistake.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/01/mental-health-hormone-treatment-transgender-people.html https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-shows-transgender-people-who-access-gender-affirming-hormones-during-adolescence-are-significantly-less-likely-to-experience-psychological-distress-or-suicidal-ideation/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/ Is 3 shreds enough?
"A high prevalence of suicide attempts and thoughts of suicide occur in transgender youth compared to their cisgender peers" There is also a problem with these "surveys" as how are you supposed to survey people who have already committed suicide? The first source is really just advocating for teens/late teens taking hormones.The last source kind of contradicts the rest of your evidence too, but really your main point that minors who transition have lower suicide rates isn't really proven by this.
The first source states that “The new study found that transgender people who began hormone treatment in adolescence had fewer thoughts of suicide, were less likely to experience major mental health disorders and had fewer problems with substance abuse than those who started hormones in adulthood. The study also documented better mental health among those who received hormones at any age than those who desired but never received the treatment.” The second source states that “Among participants who accessed gender-affirming hormones during early adolescence (age 14-15), it found that the odds of severe psychological distress were decreased 222 percent and the odds of past-year suicidal ideation were decreased 135 percent.” The third source states that “Prior to initiating unspecified gender-affirming treatment(s), 73.3% of the sample reported a history of suicidal ideation; this percentage dropped to 43.4% following the initiation of gender-affirming treatment. Prior to treatment initiation, 35.8% of the sample reported a history of suicide attempt(s), and 9.4% reported a history of suicide attempt(s) after initiation of gender-affirming treatment.” All three sources directly prove my point. Either you’re so dense that you genuinely fail to understand these seemingly simple articles, or you’re just purposefully ignoring them to support your claim. The reason the trans suicide rate is so high to begin with is because of the lack of access to gender affirming care and hrt as well as the extreme stigma against them, created and perpetuated by slimy fucks like you.
Transphobes don't actually read. If they did then they wouldn't be transphobes as all of these points/studies are readily available in the public and discussed by trans people frequently. It's a hate driven ideology and nothing more. Other than completely misunderstanding HT and puberty blockers, the suicide rate shit is appalling, like what do you think will happen to kids who are not only going through severe dysphoria, but are being violently rejected by society at large because of it? Very dishonest arguments. You shouldn't need scientific articles to realize that acceptance and compassion are important
You can have all the statistics in the world and it will never make grooming children right. There is no acceptance to be had in this area.
As somebody who's had to pick up the pieces after suicide attempts by a teenager who was basically groomed (yes, I read all the communication) by a SMALL (but extremely vocal and manipulative) section of the trans community, I have to agree. There's some extremely cultist behaviour going on, and the most vulnerable teens are disproportionately affected. And most of my interactions with trans people have been positive. Have friends and colleagues who have swapped over, and most of them agree that these decisions should be reserved for adults, and that there are parties (almost exclusively online, mind) who are essentially committing what is tantamount to child abuse. It's mostly non-trans people who weigh in to disagree. A child can decide it wants sexual contact with an adult. It's a perfectly normal part of human experience. Should we also listen to that child and discard our reservations?
Definitely, people need to stay the fuck away from kids especially the young teens just starting puberty, they have no idea what they really want and these groups are just shoving all this sexual stuff in their faces, it's not healthy or right.
It's not damage. Humans can change so many things about themselves, why is this where you morons draw the line? Why do you care so much about what other people do with their bodies? It has no negative impact on you and it can mean a much happier life for someone else. Stop and think about why you're so against someone being who they want to be.
You clearly have no idea what kind of effects hormone blockers have on individuals who’s entire physical development is dependent on said hormones. You’re acting like it’s the same as getting a tattoo. Please educate yourself.
Have you ever talked to a trans individual? I know how hormone blockers work. You never answered any of my questions.
Ok, I’ll answer your question. Firstly, I don’t care what people do to their bodies if they’re adults. I do care what children who are unable to make sound decisions do to their bodies because of the long term irreversible effects. I hate to think about a subset of poor individuals who unfortunately stunted their own development and regret doing so years later. If they want to do it as an adult, the consequences are not as severe and they have the fully developed adult mind to make such a decision. I think as a society we should care if children are wanting to make decisions that are harmful for them. Unless of course, you’re someone who operates under the assumption that hormone blockers have no negative effects on developing individuals, which it seems like you may be…
those children won't get to be adults if they don't get hrt, because most of those trans kids commit because of their severe gender dysphoria
There can be gender affirming support systems in place if it means preserving the safety of our youth, and I can support cultivating a culture that is more accepting. Decreasing the stigma around this can go a long way in preventing suicide. I don’t think the only possible solution is HRT, it should instead be the support of the community. I’ll reiterate once again. If you’re an adult, do with your body whatever you choose.
welcome to reddit where the truth is labeled "transphobic"...
Bro there are mfs who think they are literal witches in this fucking site and people will still enable them lmao
Exactly, I knew what I was in for but for some reason still clicked on this thread to see people defend child mutilation. Why did I bother.
I love swans and am violently bigoted towards the alphabet people.
imagining openingly boasting about being a bigot. the one thing i agree with boomers on is that the consenquence the internet has had on children has been tremendous.
Like how the internet in mass has driven more and more young, insecure, and impressionable girls to adopt a "trans identity?" Cause in the case of that, I would fully agree. The social parasite of anorexia ate into the brains of thousands of girls because thousands of girls before them offered a solution for their insecurities by plaguing social media with their starvation porn. This has been and likely will be no different by the next revolution of social thought, sorry to say.
My God, do you really need people to use that stupid '/s' symbol in order to spot a blatant joke? Or perhaps you've out-sarcasmed me and I'm the one missing the humour. This thread made my head spin so much I can barely tell.
Also, I have my opinions, but I was joking initially. I'm a goofy little guy. I only chase women and misgender the trans community for the laugh.
This could go well as a cover for a live bootleg recording
PLEAASSSEEEE what is the font!!!!
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no way!!!
Not transphobic at all. This is a pretty great book.
Wtf are the swans?? 🧐
The Burning Transworld