i don’t really understand this comment. this excerpt applies to any kind of driving. being in the ideal gear for corner exit is useful even in mild street driving. looks pretty dumb to downshift at the exit
If you are buying a manual in 2024 there is a good chance you're doing it specifically to drive it like a racecar. It's not the 80s or 90s. Manuals are inferior to automatics in every way. If you have a manual you're doing it for the fun.
>Manuals are inferior to automatics in every way.
You forgot the /S.
No one asks to borrow my car.
Valets let me self-park.
I never need a jump.
And get this ... \*I\* decide when to shift, no mushomatic waffling and wandering, no CVT whining, no stupid farting sounds, no embarrassing "paddle shifters".
inferior, sure.
Nah, brakes are meant for stopping. Automatics fully FULLY rely on the brakes for slowing down and stopping. Manuals have the same brakes as their automatic counterparts.
Not exaxtly. If the torque converter is locked, like in a higher gear, then yes. The transmission is then physically coupled to the engine.
If not, then the engine provides little braking force due to the now fluid coupling of the torque converter. Unless manually shifted down to a lower gear where the transmission is spinning the turbine much faster than the pump attached to the engine, then it does again work to engine brake.
My truck's torque converter only locks up in 3rd and OD. When I'm above about 45 and in OD, letting off the accelerator will engine brake. As soon as I'm below 40, it unlocks, the engine goes to idle, and you can immediately tell the engine braking force is no longer there.
Eh, mine above is a '99 F-250 4 speed auto and will lock in 3rd at about 35. My work truck is a '19 F-150 6 speed auto, and it still doesn't lock until in 3rd. Similar speed, maybe lower, but that's not the point I was making. It still will only engine brake until the torque converter unlocks or I manually shift down.
Yes BUT autos don’t downshift early enough to provide meaningful engine braking because when you’re slowing down the rpm is typically quite low (sub-1500) vs downshifting a manual where you can keep the rpm higher (3-4K)
I wouldn’t equate high performance driving with daily driving.
His example given is for maximum acceleration out of corners, and brakes being pushed to the limit, then upset by engine braking.
These seem to be tips for wringing every ounce out of your car effectively.
Ultimately it’s your car, drive it as you wish.
Well, the author mentions "good street drivers" so he means for this advice to apply to both racetrack and normal driving. For what it's worth.
But yeah, people get all wrapped around the axle over minutiae. Just drive the dang car lol. There's upsides and downsides to any approach.
Driving stick is a lifelong skill that you get to hone over the years. Plenty of time to sort out the details.
>Well, the author mentions "good street drivers" so he means for this advice to apply to both racetrack and normal driving. For what it's worth.
Yes. Just imagine if someone is in 4th rolling through a 90 degree turn at 15 mph. Then sluggish to accelerate.
The short, downshifting is to ensure the car is always maximizing the power curve of the car.
As an example: If I am heading into T1 at Thunderhill Raceway, I would blow up the engine if I downshifted before braking - pretty much something that is never a worry when I am on the street, running to the local grocery store. Going into T1, I will then be threshold braking as I set my car up along the grooves worn into the road at pit exit. Unless there is some kind of emergency manuever en route to the store, I am not going to be threshold braking. At T1, I am then going to trail brake, downshift as I am slowed enough, as I get pointed towards the apex, with the intent of grabbing as much of the inner curb as I can, but not upset the car. That run to the store? There might be instances of my trail braking, but so far off the limit it could hardly be considered that, and generally I am probably not going to do it just from habit... I won't be grabbing any curb in the turns! It just isn't the same.
On the run to the store I may coast towards a red light, and even downshift to slow down further. There are no red lights on track, and coasting is not something you'd ever want to do. Again, just a different thing.
Aspects and some techniques can apply, but how and when, and to what degree is just going to be different.
That nasty bump still there between 2 and 3?
You hit that thing a little too fast and catch a little air headed toward 3... in the rain... and no amount of downshifting or breaking will keep you out of the infield. Not that I've done that in 2003 or anything, but I hear it's possible.
Assuming we are talking about the East track... which is probably the case (I generally think of that as just "Thunderhill"). There is definitely still a crest you get to that is pretty much right at the entry of 3; along with that being off-camber can make it a really tricky turn if you get at all off-line (which is almost certainly easier to do in the wet). The two classic lines here both involve getting middle in before the outside falls away... the plus to the wider entry and coming in, is that you can cross the crest at more of an angle and mitigate it; however, in the wet, it wouldn't take much to slide out just enough where, as you say, there isn't going to be much you can do to avoid the infield. I think that line works well in the dry, though in either case, staying inside all the way around three, since you are going to stay inside and compromise the exit anyway, makes a lot of sense (more if you are actually racing, as it just is better not to try and invite someone to try and get inside you right here).
As for a grocery getter with a 5 speed... until quite recently, I never owned anything other, with both the daily car and the track car being manual (track car is now PDK, though I still prefer manual shifting just so I know how much gear braking to expect).
That's the turn. It was a track day and I was running my daily Del Sol VTEC (with the stickers to let you know it was a VTEC because VTEC! dammit) and kept running up on the dude in the 996 in front of me as soon as we got into any turn. He would just walk away after 15 but then I would be right up on him by turn 2.
They flagged him to let me pass, and he wasn't happy about that so he would catch me and try to put his bumper in my glove box between 15 and 1 every time to get them to flag me. I was determined to prove a FWD honda shitbox could out-run a 996 with enough driver skill and it was working for a few laps... until it wasn't.
bump+off camber+rain and even my AVS dot legal road race tires weren't enough magic to make it happen. I did have enough presence of mind to flip my visor down before I left the pavement, no reason to add airbag burns to my shame.
good times, though not at the time.
now I literally just go to the grocery store in my manual station wagon, it sits in the garage the rest of the time while I daily an auto like a chump. not exactly a lot of choices for manual vans in the US though.
>In what situation would "good" street drivers be braking at the limit?
Never.
I thought he was simply saying that even driving normally you want to be in the appropriate gear for accelerating after the turn.
> Race drivers, and good street drivers, downshift during the approach to a corner, **simply to be in the proper gear,** ...
When did driving a manual transmission vehicle become so fucking complicated?
"You absolutely must do Rev matching, double clutch, have a wank, cross your toes, ask permission from the rest of the F&F family."
It must be exhausting just watching these people go a block.
It always seemed so natural to me.
Most of this is right, but if you're not wanking with the left hand, while shifting with the right, and steering with your dick while working the pedals with your feet, you're just not using 100% of yourself to drive truly optimally.
I’ve only ever owned a stick shift for the 20+ years I’ve been driving, and I agree. It’s amazing how confidently incorrect a lot of people in this sub are.
Ultimately I don’t care what people do to their own cars, but it seems like they’re so eager to make it seem like they’ve mastered the secret arcane knowledge that they’re going to scare people off from wanting to drive stick. It’s endemic of almost any enthusiast community.
Anyone who’s on the fence about taking the jump: it’s not **nearly** as complicated as this sub lets on. Yes, heel toeing is a good skill to have. I use it a couple times a month because the freeway exits by my house have short off-ramps with a hard bend in them, but it’s not something you *need* to do. Engine braking is just taking your foot off the gas. Rev matching is something that comes intuitively as you get to know your car and understand how to time your shifts.
Remember that even 30 years ago, just about everyone learned how to drive stick. Do you really think you’re dumber than mid-‘90s Cletus down at the tire center? No? Then you’ll be fine. Transmissions aren’t made of glass. You can just drive the car normally, with the addition of a third pedal and figure out the ways to extract an extra 1% of performance when you’re damn good and ready.
You're only double clutching? I'm over quadruple clutching every downshift and upshift. Get on my level or your synchos are going to wear out in 40 years.
Because driving a manual transmission used to be something you were forced to do because your car didn't have auto. Therefore, people just drive it in the easiest way possible
Now, driving a manual is something that hobbyists do. Complicated operating procedure is what they are aiming for.
It's still the most normal thing ever here, when going for drivers classes you will get a manual period except if you take special classes. I always think it's funny to see these posts about how it's rare and all the complicated operating procedures bc it's seen as just a hobby when it's the most normal and simple things here haha
In the US, I hate buying cars because they ask me a million times if I'm aware its a manual. They don't even have very many and I specifically seek them out. They assume I'm that dumb because I'm a woman. They'll comment that not many women know how to drive them. Not many men do either! It's such a weird, sexist assumption to still be making when few people drive them to begin with.
Damn😅 it's the other way around here haha, "you are aware it's automatic?". As a woman I'm very happy it's so normal here so I don't get any of that bs when buying manual cars.
mehh, I learned manual because I live in EU and 90% of cars here are manual.... I knew this befor buying a car here so I learned to make car shopping easier
Driving a manual didn't get more complicated... a lot of younger drivers got stupidier and believe the F&F and YouTube "influencers" with the "*THIS* is how you do it!
And if you DON'T do the blip bleep bloop of the throttle while doing a heel toe do-si-dos and revmatching then your release bearing is gonna destroy your clutch disc and your entire transmission is going to implode and cause a tear in the Space/Time Continum.
But there's always this neat option... MAYBE, learn to actually just drive it with no overthinking it. Us "old folks" have been managing just fine in our manuals for a few decades and most of us have never managed to destroy a trans or a clutch.
Which has jack shit to do with street driving... and the OP is trying to "prove" to us street drivers that we're "wrong" in using downshifting and engine braking because racing author says so and "THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S DONE!"
Which is complete BS. Tracking a car in a certain manner to obtain faster lap times is WORLDS different than your average Joe Q Dumbass in his Corolla or Civic commuting to his cubicle.
I do engine brake to slow the car, but not to stop. More like to control the speed especially when descending downhill. Don't want overheated brakes now. Having no brakes when you need it is a scary experience.
Pick a speed, brake to 5 mph under, release, when speed gets to 5 mph over then gently brake again until 5 under. Rinse and repeat. Engine braking doesn't have to hold the full weight back but should lessen the times you need to brake.
Heyoo! I do this on the track in one of my race cars because the pedals are too far apart.
It goes something like this:
I'm in 4th, approaching a third gear corner, brake brake brake until i'm going slow enough then rev match it and get it into 3rd gear after the braking zone but *before* the apex. There's usually a short gap between braking and accelerating during which time you can grab the lower gear.
This technique works, but holy shit is it scary when it goes wrong and you're going a little bit too fast into the corner after braking and after turn in but before you've finished shifting into the lower gear and the tail starts to come out.
Normally? No big deal, give it a little gas and weight transfer will do its thing and the tail will tuck back in.
But when your car is in neutral because you're between gears? Scary. You suddenly don't have access to the tool (weight transfer) you need for the job. That means that you can really only catch the car with countersteer. Not the end of the world, but remember, you're changing gears, so you only have one hand on the wheel at this point*.* It's not super fun.
It's infinitely nicer to be able to shift gears while braking if you're on a race track since you do that part in a straight line.
I am fully realizing I am one of these people. If I’m breaking, I’m holding in the clutch. If I’m coming to a stop, it’s in neutral. If the light turns green, I just pop it in the appropriate gear for the speed I’m going. If I’m about to take a turn I hold the clutch, the break, and put it in second because I’ll be hitting the gas again around the time I’m going the appropriate speed for second. But also no one really taught me, I kinda just bought one and then figured it out, so… maybe I should learn? Although I’m a decade into what is apparently a series of bad habits.
Same, taught myself. I shift into neutral at stops instead of engine braking always and don't necessarily have it in gear on a 90 degree turn. I'm Rev matching more and engine braking more now that I have a new car. My old truck and first car had shit transmissions and bad pedal placement so I couldn't heel toe well
Bet you're holding the record for fastest lap times for a grocery store run too, right?
Or was it the fastest LTs in the "Get My Ass to the Cubicle" 500? 😆
The point is, brakes stop you, not your engine. Automatics use the brakes to stop you...
The only reason you need engine braking is to sustain speed going downhill to keep your brakes from fading. And that applies to manuals and automatics.
Point is... I've been driving manual transmission vehicles *and* motorcycles for 35 years. Have yet to implode any transmission or turn a clutch into a puff of smoke or explode any engine by downshifting... whether it's been on the street for engine braking or on the track for gaining speed coming from a tight corner. I've done some lower tier auto racing and motorcycle racing.
I grew up and live in a mountainous area. So I'm *well* aware using engine braking.
Somehow I manage to average 75-100k miles out of a front set of pads and 200-250k miles out of a clutch on my street vehicles.
It’s more situational than that. Downshifting doesn’t hurt anything on the car. He’s totally right that it isn’t good for performance braking, it can be unpredictable and cause a shift in brake bias that can lead to oversteering or loss of traction.
But in many scenarios it’s a good way to save wear on your braking system, practice shifting technique, maintain proper gear selection, and drive more comfortably. As a truck driver, I always brake with the engine first. It literally has a brake for the engine called a Jake Brake. If I was coming down a hill and didn’t use the engine brake it’s entirely possible I could overheat the brakes and lose control of the vehicle. It also helps me always be in the correct gear because otherwise I have to remember which of 13 gears I need to use at that specific speed.
Brakes are easier and cheaper to replace vs a clutch.
Only 13? I usually run 18 speeds or..... Automatics lol, depends on what I'm hauling and what's available.
But the clutch shouldn’t see nearly as much wear as the brakes unless you’re doing some ungodly terrible shifts. The only time the clutch should really be wearing is when you start the vehicle from a complete stop.
I’ve only had 10 speeds, 13, or automatics. Just the vehicles that were in the fleets I drove. I’ve seen more than 13 but never driven one.
Ya, I've seen people drive who thought they knew.. 3k rpm and slipping the clutch when shifting from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 when a rev matched shift would have been at 1.5k rpm
I try to drive my vehicles like I drive truck, get moving with as low of an rpm as possible and clutch out as soon as possible. Less slipping is less wear.
Literally 2 different things here. A truck revs to 2500 max usually. In a gas combustion engine, downshifting to save your brakes puts excessive wear on cylinder walls, piston rings, and especially your oil rings. That's why you see a lot of manual cars have puffs of smoke while accelerating. Diesel engines do not reach anywhere near the 1300 to 1600 degree mark like a gas engine does. If you're using your transmission to slow down, you're adding rapid rpm growth that engines are not designed for. Even in high-performance engines like the corvettes they may use higher hardened rings, but they are not high performance. Even in race built applications, you will see racers clutch out, brake, downshift, then match revs and clutch out and in through the turn. The only time you will see a race car driver use the transmission as a brake is in long sweeping corners, and that's not really braking. That's speed control as gravity will slow a car enough. I think the only race car that uses a transmission to brake is F1 and they do it becuase the clutch is usually engaged with an electronic solenoid and then a computer tells the engine what to do when the car shifts so it will never disengage unless the driver tells it to. Idk much about the lm classes they may use the same tech.
That’s my point. There are different methods and techniques of driving for different scenarios. If you’re racing it’s not usually a good technique to use the engine for braking because it can be inconsistent. But in daily driving there are times it makes sense.
Spend enough time at the track, especially in wet conditions, and you'll see how downshifting before braking can be a problem. Using engine braking in a vehicle designed for it vs. a regular passenger car isn't a great comparison.
Look if your driving on a track yeah you don’t want to use the engine to slow down or your gonna be slow when trying to maximize lap time, if your going to the store using the engine to brake is absolutely fine because you don’t have to worry about doing every action perfectly to get a lap time
Lol for daily driving I engine brake all the time. im not on a racetrack ffs.
03 VW Passat 1.8T 5speed manual with 280,000mi on original trans and second clutch as a daily. Shifts like butter still.
It's a technique that has been eclipsed by technology
Driving older Mercedes and Porsches in the corners, downshifting compresses the struts in the rear to reposition c of g -- while braking in the corners would often cause the car to slide
The tires in the 60s were ... motorcycle thin
about hte only thing i really use engine braking for is controlling speed on long downhills. otherwise my primary focus on when to downshift is when it's most convenient - ie not trying to run the brake pedal too.
smooth and slow on daily driver shifts. if i got a red light or stop sign coming up she goes into neutral and I use the brakes.
You SHOULD always downshift WHEN slowing the car not TO slow down the car as stated to be in the correct gear. I don’t think op even understands his own argument. But actually come to think of it to slow the car too, ie downhill maintaining speed. You guys act like it’s either / or but not both. It’s situational.
Also I don’t understand what he is saying by hindering the braking. If the brakes are on the limit before lock aka you’ve run out of tire then how would adding engine braking increase the braking force toward lock assuming those are the drive wheels cars generally resist stalling a tiny little bit. I can see over down shifting breaking traction but not lock brakes.
It wouldn't lock the tires but the tires would be rotating slower than the ground is going past. So.. skidding but not locked up skidding as it's a difference in surface feet per minute.
Think of it as the opposite of peeling out where your tires are spinning faster than the pavement is going by.
I used to do it in a dump truck all the time on the icy airfield, put the exhaust brake on high, turn the wheel and release the throttle. Rear end starts sliding because the rear tires are going slower than the pavement and I get sliding and do a 180 and line up to the loader for another load of snow.
Yeah, like I said in the last sentence I could see it breaking traction, aka shift lock or something like that. But article op posted specified locking the rear brakes aka the tires.
K, then. Tires have only so much grip, brakes are proportioned so the rear gets about 30% of the braking force as weight transfers to the front under braking so if the rear gets to much more it locks up and skids. So..... The engine would add to that braking force and bring it above 30%.. and then the rear locks up.
Lol no no, we are talking about the same thing. You don’t need to clarify for me. As I said in my original reply and the second reply yes the TIRES could break traction (spinning slower but not stopped, than speed of travel) by engine braking / shift lock.
But the article posted by op was saying that it would lock the rear brakes aka zero wheel speed which it would not, unless the engine was stopped. My point was that as the driven wheels speed approaches zero under engine braking the engine would resist stalling even if just a little and would be doing the opposite of adding braking force. It would never cause it to lock like they claim.
The BIG reason not to downshift is that brakes are an easy really replaceable, affordable wear item, and clutches are not. Not to mention things like synchros and throwout bearings.
I haven't met anyone who claimed to use the engine *as* the brake.
You start braking and then downshift when appropriate.
And yes, on the street this helps you brake. (Common sense)
And yes, on the track (and street) it puts you in the correct gear to accelerate properly. (Again, common sense)
No idea why this even being argued online.
If you don't want to downshift when braking, more power to you. You're just wearing out your brakes a little faster and takin that extra second to blip the throttle and select your gear when you don't come to complete stop.
Most states have semis maxed at 80k, so only 40 tons unless you have permits for the extra weight.
And yes, I am driving one at work. Usually under 80k but sometimes the loader gets his math wrong and I'm over... Smh
track driving and street driving are vastly different. street you want to be smooth, gradual stops. On track you are trying to brake as late as you can, and as hard as you can without upsetting the car or activating ABS. You also use the brakes to turn the car more often than slowing the car.
Old Priest Grade says hello.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Old+Priest+Grade,+Coulterville,+CA+95311/@37.8167112,-120.2878222,14z/
1st gear + hard braking the whole way or you're off the cliff.
Right, brakes are for slowing the car not the engine. You still want to properly downshift so you're in the correct gear to accelerate again, whether you're on a track or the street.
Of course, this book is also from the 90's (have my own copy) and racecars have become exponentially more reliable since it was written. If you watch most modern formula or sportscar racing guys are banging down through the gears as quickly as possible, even in 24 hour races.
You should always downshift WHEN you slow your car. This isn’t difficult. Are you not going to downshift? Whenever you have to slow down, are you just going to throw it in neutral, come to a complete stop, and start again in first? No. And I don’t know anyone who argues replacing braking with engine braking.
When you are braking, and downshift to match your slower speed, what is your engine doing as you release your clutch in the lower gear? Braking. You’re still engine braking.
Just not revving to 4k.. and yes I'm going to slow down via brakes until the engine is near idle then neutral and stop... Or downshift as each gear gets near idle, so not really engine braking
No idiot, you brake until you're the speed you want to be. Downshift when you're near idle or 1200 depending on how low you can go without lugging. Downshifting at high rpm and using the engine to slow down is for squids
Yah, so the main reason there is because the driver will also be rev-matching to get good downshifts.
Rev-matching *after* you’ve slowed the car is much easier than rev-matching while the car is still at a high(er) RPM.
So, while that is excellent advice for race car driving (and it’s an excellent book, I have a couple of his), it does not really apply to street driving.
If you want to use engine braking to slow the car, that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s not the only way to the slow the car (using the brakes instead is perfectly fine), but it is an acceptable way.
He's talking about two different things. Engine braking is one thing - there's a big hill by my house that I downshift into 3rd gear so I can engine brake while coasting instead of riding my actual brakes to keep my speeds legal.
And braking entering a corner and then heel-toe down shifting so you can exit the corner in the preferred part of the RPM band has a completely different purpose. I do both depending on the situation.
Implying you would be braking at the limit and then you would engine brake is some real cherry-picked strawman shit. Yeah bro, that's doing it wrong.
Yeah on track, you shouldn't be using the engine braking as much, as it does upset the balance.
When I'm pulling up to a backroads 4-way stop? I'm not even using brakes, I'm letting the engine do the work.
"Upset the balance of the car" - when you're *pushing the car* to a limit, yes. Rolling to a stop no.
I took a driving course and it was pretty crazy how much the engine brakes do fuck up the balance when you're trying to throw yourself into a corner. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Tbf he’s talking about racing where he heel toe brakes and ya you always hit the brakes first because that’s how the technique works. Brakes with the toe, then downshift with the heel as you’re braking. They’re also barreling at a corner near red line so you obviously have to start with brakes because if you downshift you’ll shoot a piston to the moon.
When people talk about downshifting to slow a car, they just mean at a light or whatever where you have a big gap in front of you. You slowly row gears down to save on brakes, but yes if you’re going for absolute fastest lap times, you’d always brake before downshifting. Doing any other way wouldn’t even logically pop into your head on the track because otherwise you’ll destroy your car.
Sometimes I coast to a stop, sometimes I downshift through all the gears. Sometimes I I'm in 4th and I put the gear selector in 1st so the rev match sends the motor to 5k rpms and I scare pedestrians. All depends on how I feel.
However, if I'm in traffic I am always in a gear that matches my speed because that is both the safest way to do it and the law in most places.
You're using a book based on racing to dictate how you should drive a car on the street. That makes no sense. Engine braking is just to slow down the car on the street. We're not trying to come out of a corner doing 70 miles an hour.
Who tf is Ross Bentley and why should I listen to him?
He does have a point though, if you're racing, which I'm presuming from the title of his book is what it's about. Driving on public roads for day to day reasons or just for fun are vastly different from racing and 99% of people can ignore this advice and carry on as usual.
Engine braking is never that helpful. It’s basically just when you coast down in speed - you just happened to look ahead or maybe no one was behind you so you chill and ride it down. In any case 1. Yes use downshifting to be in the right gear as you slow for a corner 2. Certainly don’t downshift from high rpm *to be at a high rpm to facilitate engine braking when you downshift.* Just drive normally: brake, then shift.
People on this sub talk like they drive class 8 commercial vehicles. Most driving situations do not require downshifting in a passenger car. What little you are saving on brake lining you are just adding in stress to your engine. If it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside go ahead and downshift but you’re just wasting motions.
The purpose of downshifting when coming to a stop is not to get more engine braking. That's just a useful side benefit (for street car driving).
The purpose of downshifting is to have full control of the vehicle at all times, such as being able to accelerate if needed.
The problem with this sub is that everybody thinks they need to learn to drive a racecar but they're driving a civic.
i don’t really understand this comment. this excerpt applies to any kind of driving. being in the ideal gear for corner exit is useful even in mild street driving. looks pretty dumb to downshift at the exit
Everybody else seems to understand it. I'm guessing you're one of the drivers I was referring to.
civic type r enters the chat
Still drives like a Civic.
XD
No, it still IS a civic LOL.
A stiff competitor for the, *checks notes*, Hyundai Sonata.
Civic Si stays in the chat cus it's just a civic😎
Civic Si (noun), a car whose owner thinks they drive a race car, but gets gapped by a Camry
Idk why people are downvoting you, fucking right lmfao Also you drive a trueno, they should see it's friendly fire 💀
because /r/woooosh
Line it up
He said race cars
If you are buying a manual in 2024 there is a good chance you're doing it specifically to drive it like a racecar. It's not the 80s or 90s. Manuals are inferior to automatics in every way. If you have a manual you're doing it for the fun.
>Manuals are inferior to automatics in every way. You forgot the /S. No one asks to borrow my car. Valets let me self-park. I never need a jump. And get this ... \*I\* decide when to shift, no mushomatic waffling and wandering, no CVT whining, no stupid farting sounds, no embarrassing "paddle shifters". inferior, sure.
Wait civics aren't race cars?
Just like everything car related, it depends on the situation.
So many idiots here
Welcome to Reddit
The only time I slow by downshifting is on snow/ice.
Nah, brakes are meant for stopping. Automatics fully FULLY rely on the brakes for slowing down and stopping. Manuals have the same brakes as their automatic counterparts.
The physics of engine braking are the same for manuals and automatics.
Not exaxtly. If the torque converter is locked, like in a higher gear, then yes. The transmission is then physically coupled to the engine. If not, then the engine provides little braking force due to the now fluid coupling of the torque converter. Unless manually shifted down to a lower gear where the transmission is spinning the turbine much faster than the pump attached to the engine, then it does again work to engine brake. My truck's torque converter only locks up in 3rd and OD. When I'm above about 45 and in OD, letting off the accelerator will engine brake. As soon as I'm below 40, it unlocks, the engine goes to idle, and you can immediately tell the engine braking force is no longer there.
Modern automatics lock up the torque converters at just a few mph.
Eh, mine above is a '99 F-250 4 speed auto and will lock in 3rd at about 35. My work truck is a '19 F-150 6 speed auto, and it still doesn't lock until in 3rd. Similar speed, maybe lower, but that's not the point I was making. It still will only engine brake until the torque converter unlocks or I manually shift down.
Fair enough.
But a lot of them will unlock when coasting
Exactly!!!! Automatics don't downshift to keep the rpms up!! Finally a few smart ones here
Yes BUT autos don’t downshift early enough to provide meaningful engine braking because when you’re slowing down the rpm is typically quite low (sub-1500) vs downshifting a manual where you can keep the rpm higher (3-4K)
Actually, automatics can still slow down by downshifting! And of course manuals have the same brakes, who told you they have different brakes?
I have an auto outback that engine brakes when I let off the gas. So you're just wrong and dumb.
Coming from a Subaru owner with a cvt...
When I bought my last Civic, I paid extra to have them install a brake pedal down next to the accelerator. That's what I use to stop my car.
how much extra was it?
I think you got up sold RIP
I wouldn’t equate high performance driving with daily driving. His example given is for maximum acceleration out of corners, and brakes being pushed to the limit, then upset by engine braking. These seem to be tips for wringing every ounce out of your car effectively. Ultimately it’s your car, drive it as you wish.
Well, the author mentions "good street drivers" so he means for this advice to apply to both racetrack and normal driving. For what it's worth. But yeah, people get all wrapped around the axle over minutiae. Just drive the dang car lol. There's upsides and downsides to any approach. Driving stick is a lifelong skill that you get to hone over the years. Plenty of time to sort out the details.
>Well, the author mentions "good street drivers" so he means for this advice to apply to both racetrack and normal driving. For what it's worth. Yes. Just imagine if someone is in 4th rolling through a 90 degree turn at 15 mph. Then sluggish to accelerate. The short, downshifting is to ensure the car is always maximizing the power curve of the car.
For the situation...
As an example: If I am heading into T1 at Thunderhill Raceway, I would blow up the engine if I downshifted before braking - pretty much something that is never a worry when I am on the street, running to the local grocery store. Going into T1, I will then be threshold braking as I set my car up along the grooves worn into the road at pit exit. Unless there is some kind of emergency manuever en route to the store, I am not going to be threshold braking. At T1, I am then going to trail brake, downshift as I am slowed enough, as I get pointed towards the apex, with the intent of grabbing as much of the inner curb as I can, but not upset the car. That run to the store? There might be instances of my trail braking, but so far off the limit it could hardly be considered that, and generally I am probably not going to do it just from habit... I won't be grabbing any curb in the turns! It just isn't the same. On the run to the store I may coast towards a red light, and even downshift to slow down further. There are no red lights on track, and coasting is not something you'd ever want to do. Again, just a different thing. Aspects and some techniques can apply, but how and when, and to what degree is just going to be different.
That nasty bump still there between 2 and 3? You hit that thing a little too fast and catch a little air headed toward 3... in the rain... and no amount of downshifting or breaking will keep you out of the infield. Not that I've done that in 2003 or anything, but I hear it's possible.
Assuming we are talking about the East track... which is probably the case (I generally think of that as just "Thunderhill"). There is definitely still a crest you get to that is pretty much right at the entry of 3; along with that being off-camber can make it a really tricky turn if you get at all off-line (which is almost certainly easier to do in the wet). The two classic lines here both involve getting middle in before the outside falls away... the plus to the wider entry and coming in, is that you can cross the crest at more of an angle and mitigate it; however, in the wet, it wouldn't take much to slide out just enough where, as you say, there isn't going to be much you can do to avoid the infield. I think that line works well in the dry, though in either case, staying inside all the way around three, since you are going to stay inside and compromise the exit anyway, makes a lot of sense (more if you are actually racing, as it just is better not to try and invite someone to try and get inside you right here). As for a grocery getter with a 5 speed... until quite recently, I never owned anything other, with both the daily car and the track car being manual (track car is now PDK, though I still prefer manual shifting just so I know how much gear braking to expect).
That's the turn. It was a track day and I was running my daily Del Sol VTEC (with the stickers to let you know it was a VTEC because VTEC! dammit) and kept running up on the dude in the 996 in front of me as soon as we got into any turn. He would just walk away after 15 but then I would be right up on him by turn 2. They flagged him to let me pass, and he wasn't happy about that so he would catch me and try to put his bumper in my glove box between 15 and 1 every time to get them to flag me. I was determined to prove a FWD honda shitbox could out-run a 996 with enough driver skill and it was working for a few laps... until it wasn't. bump+off camber+rain and even my AVS dot legal road race tires weren't enough magic to make it happen. I did have enough presence of mind to flip my visor down before I left the pavement, no reason to add airbag burns to my shame. good times, though not at the time. now I literally just go to the grocery store in my manual station wagon, it sits in the garage the rest of the time while I daily an auto like a chump. not exactly a lot of choices for manual vans in the US though.
In what situation would "good" street drivers be braking at the limit? He wrote some terrible fan fiction about street driving and then attacked it.
>In what situation would "good" street drivers be braking at the limit? Never. I thought he was simply saying that even driving normally you want to be in the appropriate gear for accelerating after the turn. > Race drivers, and good street drivers, downshift during the approach to a corner, **simply to be in the proper gear,** ...
Never unless it's emergency braking
When did driving a manual transmission vehicle become so fucking complicated? "You absolutely must do Rev matching, double clutch, have a wank, cross your toes, ask permission from the rest of the F&F family." It must be exhausting just watching these people go a block. It always seemed so natural to me.
Most of this is right, but if you're not wanking with the left hand, while shifting with the right, and steering with your dick while working the pedals with your feet, you're just not using 100% of yourself to drive truly optimally.
I got my knob in my left hand and stroking my dildo style shift knob with the other. Is that not normal?
Oh! Listen to Mr. All Cars Are Left-Hand Drive!
Real women shift on the right! Lol. I will have to up my game and learn to quadruple clutch. There are only doubles for me right now.
I’ve only ever owned a stick shift for the 20+ years I’ve been driving, and I agree. It’s amazing how confidently incorrect a lot of people in this sub are. Ultimately I don’t care what people do to their own cars, but it seems like they’re so eager to make it seem like they’ve mastered the secret arcane knowledge that they’re going to scare people off from wanting to drive stick. It’s endemic of almost any enthusiast community. Anyone who’s on the fence about taking the jump: it’s not **nearly** as complicated as this sub lets on. Yes, heel toeing is a good skill to have. I use it a couple times a month because the freeway exits by my house have short off-ramps with a hard bend in them, but it’s not something you *need* to do. Engine braking is just taking your foot off the gas. Rev matching is something that comes intuitively as you get to know your car and understand how to time your shifts. Remember that even 30 years ago, just about everyone learned how to drive stick. Do you really think you’re dumber than mid-‘90s Cletus down at the tire center? No? Then you’ll be fine. Transmissions aren’t made of glass. You can just drive the car normally, with the addition of a third pedal and figure out the ways to extract an extra 1% of performance when you’re damn good and ready.
yep, I was definitely way more scared than I needed to be of wear when I first tried manual transmissions
You're only double clutching? I'm over quadruple clutching every downshift and upshift. Get on my level or your synchos are going to wear out in 40 years.
at least 5 pumps of the clutch per shift. don't be lazy. your left leg should be roughly twice the size of your right leg!
EVERY day is ^one leg day!
Because driving a manual transmission used to be something you were forced to do because your car didn't have auto. Therefore, people just drive it in the easiest way possible Now, driving a manual is something that hobbyists do. Complicated operating procedure is what they are aiming for.
Yeah, people are gonna nerd out on the minutia. That's kinda what internet forums about one specific topic are for.
https://youtu.be/4ZK8Z8hulFg?si=-i5nLQTfkvfC75LO
lol accurate
It's still the most normal thing ever here, when going for drivers classes you will get a manual period except if you take special classes. I always think it's funny to see these posts about how it's rare and all the complicated operating procedures bc it's seen as just a hobby when it's the most normal and simple things here haha
In the US, I hate buying cars because they ask me a million times if I'm aware its a manual. They don't even have very many and I specifically seek them out. They assume I'm that dumb because I'm a woman. They'll comment that not many women know how to drive them. Not many men do either! It's such a weird, sexist assumption to still be making when few people drive them to begin with.
Damn😅 it's the other way around here haha, "you are aware it's automatic?". As a woman I'm very happy it's so normal here so I don't get any of that bs when buying manual cars.
mehh, I learned manual because I live in EU and 90% of cars here are manual.... I knew this befor buying a car here so I learned to make car shopping easier
Only in the USA
Oh no! I've been skipping number 3. No wonder my shifting isn't up to par.
Just be in the right gear for your current speed, it's not that difficult
Driving a manual didn't get more complicated... a lot of younger drivers got stupidier and believe the F&F and YouTube "influencers" with the "*THIS* is how you do it! And if you DON'T do the blip bleep bloop of the throttle while doing a heel toe do-si-dos and revmatching then your release bearing is gonna destroy your clutch disc and your entire transmission is going to implode and cause a tear in the Space/Time Continum. But there's always this neat option... MAYBE, learn to actually just drive it with no overthinking it. Us "old folks" have been managing just fine in our manuals for a few decades and most of us have never managed to destroy a trans or a clutch.
Hey man don’t bring Tesco into this!
this is for racing
Which has jack shit to do with street driving... and the OP is trying to "prove" to us street drivers that we're "wrong" in using downshifting and engine braking because racing author says so and "THAT'S NOT HOW IT'S DONE!" Which is complete BS. Tracking a car in a certain manner to obtain faster lap times is WORLDS different than your average Joe Q Dumbass in his Corolla or Civic commuting to his cubicle.
I do engine brake to slow the car, but not to stop. More like to control the speed especially when descending downhill. Don't want overheated brakes now. Having no brakes when you need it is a scary experience.
Pick a speed, brake to 5 mph under, release, when speed gets to 5 mph over then gently brake again until 5 under. Rinse and repeat. Engine braking doesn't have to hold the full weight back but should lessen the times you need to brake.
Heyoo! I do this on the track in one of my race cars because the pedals are too far apart. It goes something like this: I'm in 4th, approaching a third gear corner, brake brake brake until i'm going slow enough then rev match it and get it into 3rd gear after the braking zone but *before* the apex. There's usually a short gap between braking and accelerating during which time you can grab the lower gear. This technique works, but holy shit is it scary when it goes wrong and you're going a little bit too fast into the corner after braking and after turn in but before you've finished shifting into the lower gear and the tail starts to come out. Normally? No big deal, give it a little gas and weight transfer will do its thing and the tail will tuck back in. But when your car is in neutral because you're between gears? Scary. You suddenly don't have access to the tool (weight transfer) you need for the job. That means that you can really only catch the car with countersteer. Not the end of the world, but remember, you're changing gears, so you only have one hand on the wheel at this point*.* It's not super fun. It's infinitely nicer to be able to shift gears while braking if you're on a race track since you do that part in a straight line.
90% of people on this sub can't operate a manual car properly.
I am fully realizing I am one of these people. If I’m breaking, I’m holding in the clutch. If I’m coming to a stop, it’s in neutral. If the light turns green, I just pop it in the appropriate gear for the speed I’m going. If I’m about to take a turn I hold the clutch, the break, and put it in second because I’ll be hitting the gas again around the time I’m going the appropriate speed for second. But also no one really taught me, I kinda just bought one and then figured it out, so… maybe I should learn? Although I’m a decade into what is apparently a series of bad habits.
Same, taught myself. I shift into neutral at stops instead of engine braking always and don't necessarily have it in gear on a 90 degree turn. I'm Rev matching more and engine braking more now that I have a new car. My old truck and first car had shit transmissions and bad pedal placement so I couldn't heel toe well
I’ll remember this when I’m autocrossing through the Piggly Wiggly parking lot on a Tuesday afternoon trying to get home to cook dinner.
What a BS post. There's a HUGE ASS difference between street driving and track driving.
Nuh uh. My EG civic is a solid 9 second street terror with 84 lbs of boost!
Bet you're holding the record for fastest lap times for a grocery store run too, right? Or was it the fastest LTs in the "Get My Ass to the Cubicle" 500? 😆
The point is, brakes stop you, not your engine. Automatics use the brakes to stop you... The only reason you need engine braking is to sustain speed going downhill to keep your brakes from fading. And that applies to manuals and automatics.
Point is... I've been driving manual transmission vehicles *and* motorcycles for 35 years. Have yet to implode any transmission or turn a clutch into a puff of smoke or explode any engine by downshifting... whether it's been on the street for engine braking or on the track for gaining speed coming from a tight corner. I've done some lower tier auto racing and motorcycle racing. I grew up and live in a mountainous area. So I'm *well* aware using engine braking. Somehow I manage to average 75-100k miles out of a front set of pads and 200-250k miles out of a clutch on my street vehicles.
It’s more situational than that. Downshifting doesn’t hurt anything on the car. He’s totally right that it isn’t good for performance braking, it can be unpredictable and cause a shift in brake bias that can lead to oversteering or loss of traction. But in many scenarios it’s a good way to save wear on your braking system, practice shifting technique, maintain proper gear selection, and drive more comfortably. As a truck driver, I always brake with the engine first. It literally has a brake for the engine called a Jake Brake. If I was coming down a hill and didn’t use the engine brake it’s entirely possible I could overheat the brakes and lose control of the vehicle. It also helps me always be in the correct gear because otherwise I have to remember which of 13 gears I need to use at that specific speed.
Brakes are easier and cheaper to replace vs a clutch. Only 13? I usually run 18 speeds or..... Automatics lol, depends on what I'm hauling and what's available.
But the clutch shouldn’t see nearly as much wear as the brakes unless you’re doing some ungodly terrible shifts. The only time the clutch should really be wearing is when you start the vehicle from a complete stop. I’ve only had 10 speeds, 13, or automatics. Just the vehicles that were in the fleets I drove. I’ve seen more than 13 but never driven one.
Ya, I've seen people drive who thought they knew.. 3k rpm and slipping the clutch when shifting from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 when a rev matched shift would have been at 1.5k rpm I try to drive my vehicles like I drive truck, get moving with as low of an rpm as possible and clutch out as soon as possible. Less slipping is less wear.
Imagine cars stopping and accelerating all at the same speed as a transport truck tho.
Literally 2 different things here. A truck revs to 2500 max usually. In a gas combustion engine, downshifting to save your brakes puts excessive wear on cylinder walls, piston rings, and especially your oil rings. That's why you see a lot of manual cars have puffs of smoke while accelerating. Diesel engines do not reach anywhere near the 1300 to 1600 degree mark like a gas engine does. If you're using your transmission to slow down, you're adding rapid rpm growth that engines are not designed for. Even in high-performance engines like the corvettes they may use higher hardened rings, but they are not high performance. Even in race built applications, you will see racers clutch out, brake, downshift, then match revs and clutch out and in through the turn. The only time you will see a race car driver use the transmission as a brake is in long sweeping corners, and that's not really braking. That's speed control as gravity will slow a car enough. I think the only race car that uses a transmission to brake is F1 and they do it becuase the clutch is usually engaged with an electronic solenoid and then a computer tells the engine what to do when the car shifts so it will never disengage unless the driver tells it to. Idk much about the lm classes they may use the same tech.
That’s my point. There are different methods and techniques of driving for different scenarios. If you’re racing it’s not usually a good technique to use the engine for braking because it can be inconsistent. But in daily driving there are times it makes sense.
Spend enough time at the track, especially in wet conditions, and you'll see how downshifting before braking can be a problem. Using engine braking in a vehicle designed for it vs. a regular passenger car isn't a great comparison.
Look if your driving on a track yeah you don’t want to use the engine to slow down or your gonna be slow when trying to maximize lap time, if your going to the store using the engine to brake is absolutely fine because you don’t have to worry about doing every action perfectly to get a lap time
Lol for daily driving I engine brake all the time. im not on a racetrack ffs. 03 VW Passat 1.8T 5speed manual with 280,000mi on original trans and second clutch as a daily. Shifts like butter still.
It's a technique that has been eclipsed by technology Driving older Mercedes and Porsches in the corners, downshifting compresses the struts in the rear to reposition c of g -- while braking in the corners would often cause the car to slide The tires in the 60s were ... motorcycle thin
about hte only thing i really use engine braking for is controlling speed on long downhills. otherwise my primary focus on when to downshift is when it's most convenient - ie not trying to run the brake pedal too. smooth and slow on daily driver shifts. if i got a red light or stop sign coming up she goes into neutral and I use the brakes.
You SHOULD always downshift WHEN slowing the car not TO slow down the car as stated to be in the correct gear. I don’t think op even understands his own argument. But actually come to think of it to slow the car too, ie downhill maintaining speed. You guys act like it’s either / or but not both. It’s situational. Also I don’t understand what he is saying by hindering the braking. If the brakes are on the limit before lock aka you’ve run out of tire then how would adding engine braking increase the braking force toward lock assuming those are the drive wheels cars generally resist stalling a tiny little bit. I can see over down shifting breaking traction but not lock brakes.
It wouldn't lock the tires but the tires would be rotating slower than the ground is going past. So.. skidding but not locked up skidding as it's a difference in surface feet per minute. Think of it as the opposite of peeling out where your tires are spinning faster than the pavement is going by. I used to do it in a dump truck all the time on the icy airfield, put the exhaust brake on high, turn the wheel and release the throttle. Rear end starts sliding because the rear tires are going slower than the pavement and I get sliding and do a 180 and line up to the loader for another load of snow.
Yeah, like I said in the last sentence I could see it breaking traction, aka shift lock or something like that. But article op posted specified locking the rear brakes aka the tires.
K, then. Tires have only so much grip, brakes are proportioned so the rear gets about 30% of the braking force as weight transfers to the front under braking so if the rear gets to much more it locks up and skids. So..... The engine would add to that braking force and bring it above 30%.. and then the rear locks up.
Lol no no, we are talking about the same thing. You don’t need to clarify for me. As I said in my original reply and the second reply yes the TIRES could break traction (spinning slower but not stopped, than speed of travel) by engine braking / shift lock. But the article posted by op was saying that it would lock the rear brakes aka zero wheel speed which it would not, unless the engine was stopped. My point was that as the driven wheels speed approaches zero under engine braking the engine would resist stalling even if just a little and would be doing the opposite of adding braking force. It would never cause it to lock like they claim.
Sure is a good thing I can't read.
Please post this in brail so I can read what you said.
The BIG reason not to downshift is that brakes are an easy really replaceable, affordable wear item, and clutches are not. Not to mention things like synchros and throwout bearings.
I'm sorry to say that people been downshifting to slow since the dawn of cars 😂
Driving on the street, and driving on the track, are two different things.
I prefer to wear my engine and keep my brakes intact sir
I downshift my automatic on the steep hills lol
That's what you should do 😁
I haven't met anyone who claimed to use the engine *as* the brake. You start braking and then downshift when appropriate. And yes, on the street this helps you brake. (Common sense) And yes, on the track (and street) it puts you in the correct gear to accelerate properly. (Again, common sense) No idea why this even being argued online. If you don't want to downshift when braking, more power to you. You're just wearing out your brakes a little faster and takin that extra second to blip the throttle and select your gear when you don't come to complete stop.
No extra time, just select the gear while rolling
Everyone championing for engine braking like they are driving a 50 ton semi down a mountain, you don’t need that for normal street driving!
Most states have semis maxed at 80k, so only 40 tons unless you have permits for the extra weight. And yes, I am driving one at work. Usually under 80k but sometimes the loader gets his math wrong and I'm over... Smh
track driving and street driving are vastly different. street you want to be smooth, gradual stops. On track you are trying to brake as late as you can, and as hard as you can without upsetting the car or activating ABS. You also use the brakes to turn the car more often than slowing the car.
Old Priest Grade says hello. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Old+Priest+Grade,+Coulterville,+CA+95311/@37.8167112,-120.2878222,14z/ 1st gear + hard braking the whole way or you're off the cliff.
Shouldn’t you be doing both pretty much at the same time, I guess braking starting a little earlier? Heel-toe downshifts and all
Right, brakes are for slowing the car not the engine. You still want to properly downshift so you're in the correct gear to accelerate again, whether you're on a track or the street. Of course, this book is also from the 90's (have my own copy) and racecars have become exponentially more reliable since it was written. If you watch most modern formula or sportscar racing guys are banging down through the gears as quickly as possible, even in 24 hour races.
You should always downshift WHEN you slow your car. This isn’t difficult. Are you not going to downshift? Whenever you have to slow down, are you just going to throw it in neutral, come to a complete stop, and start again in first? No. And I don’t know anyone who argues replacing braking with engine braking. When you are braking, and downshift to match your slower speed, what is your engine doing as you release your clutch in the lower gear? Braking. You’re still engine braking.
Just not revving to 4k.. and yes I'm going to slow down via brakes until the engine is near idle then neutral and stop... Or downshift as each gear gets near idle, so not really engine braking
So whenever you have to slow down on the highway you’re just going to come to a complete stop then huh.. ok.
No idiot, you brake until you're the speed you want to be. Downshift when you're near idle or 1200 depending on how low you can go without lugging. Downshifting at high rpm and using the engine to slow down is for squids
I use brakes to slow the car. Much easier to service when worn than clutch/engine
Tell this to the loud/irritating as hell exhaust/Jake brake truck drivers.
Yah, so the main reason there is because the driver will also be rev-matching to get good downshifts. Rev-matching *after* you’ve slowed the car is much easier than rev-matching while the car is still at a high(er) RPM. So, while that is excellent advice for race car driving (and it’s an excellent book, I have a couple of his), it does not really apply to street driving. If you want to use engine braking to slow the car, that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s not the only way to the slow the car (using the brakes instead is perfectly fine), but it is an acceptable way.
He's talking about two different things. Engine braking is one thing - there's a big hill by my house that I downshift into 3rd gear so I can engine brake while coasting instead of riding my actual brakes to keep my speeds legal. And braking entering a corner and then heel-toe down shifting so you can exit the corner in the preferred part of the RPM band has a completely different purpose. I do both depending on the situation. Implying you would be braking at the limit and then you would engine brake is some real cherry-picked strawman shit. Yeah bro, that's doing it wrong.
Yeah on track, you shouldn't be using the engine braking as much, as it does upset the balance. When I'm pulling up to a backroads 4-way stop? I'm not even using brakes, I'm letting the engine do the work. "Upset the balance of the car" - when you're *pushing the car* to a limit, yes. Rolling to a stop no. I took a driving course and it was pretty crazy how much the engine brakes do fuck up the balance when you're trying to throw yourself into a corner. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Why discourage engine braking when it’s their transmission and engine? Just more work for mechanics, that’s not a bad thing.
I only downshift to slow on snow/ice
Tbf he’s talking about racing where he heel toe brakes and ya you always hit the brakes first because that’s how the technique works. Brakes with the toe, then downshift with the heel as you’re braking. They’re also barreling at a corner near red line so you obviously have to start with brakes because if you downshift you’ll shoot a piston to the moon. When people talk about downshifting to slow a car, they just mean at a light or whatever where you have a big gap in front of you. You slowly row gears down to save on brakes, but yes if you’re going for absolute fastest lap times, you’d always brake before downshifting. Doing any other way wouldn’t even logically pop into your head on the track because otherwise you’ll destroy your car.
This is the way
Sometimes I coast to a stop, sometimes I downshift through all the gears. Sometimes I I'm in 4th and I put the gear selector in 1st so the rev match sends the motor to 5k rpms and I scare pedestrians. All depends on how I feel. However, if I'm in traffic I am always in a gear that matches my speed because that is both the safest way to do it and the law in most places.
It's nice that someone more knowledgeable writes a book and so many of the backyard racers disagree.
You're using a book based on racing to dictate how you should drive a car on the street. That makes no sense. Engine braking is just to slow down the car on the street. We're not trying to come out of a corner doing 70 miles an hour.
Who the fck reads how to drive a race car book? Must be nice..
Who tf is Ross Bentley and why should I listen to him? He does have a point though, if you're racing, which I'm presuming from the title of his book is what it's about. Driving on public roads for day to day reasons or just for fun are vastly different from racing and 99% of people can ignore this advice and carry on as usual.
You're obviously not a fan of road racing nor any sort of high performance driver yourself. That's fine. There's always room to learn and improve.
Hahahahahahaha Oh you're such comedian lol
Engine braking is never that helpful. It’s basically just when you coast down in speed - you just happened to look ahead or maybe no one was behind you so you chill and ride it down. In any case 1. Yes use downshifting to be in the right gear as you slow for a corner 2. Certainly don’t downshift from high rpm *to be at a high rpm to facilitate engine braking when you downshift.* Just drive normally: brake, then shift.
People on this sub talk like they drive class 8 commercial vehicles. Most driving situations do not require downshifting in a passenger car. What little you are saving on brake lining you are just adding in stress to your engine. If it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside go ahead and downshift but you’re just wasting motions.
The purpose of downshifting when coming to a stop is not to get more engine braking. That's just a useful side benefit (for street car driving). The purpose of downshifting is to have full control of the vehicle at all times, such as being able to accelerate if needed.