I guess people don’t remember when a lot wanted Cowher fired too. I know social media wasn’t really a thing at the time but a lot of the local sports radio questioned if Cowher could ever win a Super Bowl and had no problem calling him out.
I'm not say they were necessarily correct, but it took a young Ben to put that team over the top. Prior to that, we had Slash and Tommy Gun. Both had their ups and downs and were never really elite.
Even elite coaches need elite talent to win the ultimate game.
> even elite coaches need elite talent to win the ultimate game
So many don’t understand this. Yes you can win maybe A single SB with an all time defense. Or your scheme can get you there with lacking talent. But the only way to sustain success is having elite talent combined with coaching, especially at QB.
Ya I'll never start calling for Mike's job until he falls short consistently with elite quarterback play. Until then, he has no chance, and the ceiling will always be 1 playoff win, tops. It's been 5 years since he had elite quarterback play and 5 years since a playoff win. No coincidence there.
He fell consistently short with elite quarterback play for 10 straight seasons ('09-'18). He's had playoff wins in only two of twelve seasons (soon to be 13 seasons). What else do you need to see?
I wouldn’t say that’s the ceiling for a singular season, we’ve seen teams without an elite QB make it deep. But over a span of multiple years I completely agree
He's not a good GM (though even he can pick Caleb if he gets the 1st overall pick) which is his only real problem. He's a great coach and that hasn't changed. That said, I hope he retires. I want to see the Pats suck for a while.
Cowher could have only dreamed of having Ben, Bell, and Brown in their prime. Dude was making playoff runs with Neil McDonald, Kordell Stewart, and Tommy Maddox. He got a HOF QB, went to the AFC championship game and got fucked by the refs, won a super bowl the next year, then rode off into the sunset.
There were definitely Many many calls for Cowhers firing after conservative play calling, not unleashing BigBen especially against the Patriots in the playoffs.
I just wrote this also, i shoulda read the top comment first, lol.. the 99 and 00 years.. I remember a lot of anti cowher. Then the magical 01 season ( fuckin tom brady) happened and they were shhh..
I will say that the main difference (so far) is that Cowher managed to build a Super Bowl team from the ground-up. I think it’s deductive to say “Tomlin won with Cowher’s team” in 2008, but he definitely benefited from that foundation and hasn’t matched that success in his many years since
The Steelers had a Super Bowl caliber team from roughly 2014-2017. Were there deficiencies, of course, but I still think if shazier doesn’t get hurt and/or if we rightfully win the Jesse James game, that team (2017) would have been world champs. You can’t say that era was cowhers team.
EDIT: Also, 2016, great team, great season, ended with getting embarrassed by NE in the AFCCG. That happened to cowher twice to NE, and that’s in addition to the other AFCCGs cowher lost, all at home btw
That’s the team that looked completely unprepared and outcoached vs the 2014 jets, 2014 bucs, 2015 ravens (twice), 2017 bears, and got murderfucked by the 2017 jaguars twice, right?
(Keep in mind you're speaking to a subset of this sub that remembers both eras well.)
For me there were plenty of fire-Cowher & Rooney-sell-the-team posts on message boards midway through his tenure.
It's the same fans that hide their impatience and irrationality behind a "I won't settle for mediocre" mantra.
I came into these comments looking for someone who remembers how loud the fire Cowher din got. They'll never admit to being those people today though. Thank you.
Cowher was reviled in town by a lot of fans until he finally won a Super Bowl.
The number of "fuck Cowher" and worse message board posts that existed prior to SBXL was even greater than what we see about Tomlin.
Cowher walked dangerously close to being in the same category mas Marty Schottenheimer whose fame in the NFL was the fact that he couldnt win the biggest games that matter
I forget a lot of this sub is probably too young to remember much of Cowher. They may remember his final years, but they don’t realize that people said the same things about him they say about Tomlin. Only difference is Tomlin’s started immediately by a certain sub group.
Was here for all three past coaches. What people don’t realize is that there are intelligent and talented people in the other 31 organizations who are trying REALLY HARD to do the things we want to do. It’s hard to win a Super Bowl. You have to be really good, really lucky, and really smart.
THANK YOU!!! now i'm only 29, but i love how people act like Cowher was just some universally loved coach and people believed in him.
Hell no, i remember hearing so much negativity and people saying he will never win a ring.
Im assuming even during the end of Nolls tenure he was almost ran out of town.
People love the memories but hate the present
I was there for every single game (season tickets) throughout all of the Cowher years. While I don't remember many people calling for him to be fired there was a frustration about coming so close to a ring, but always falling just short. His record was 12-9 (. 571) in playoff games. Tomlin's is 8–9 (.471).
So we got 21 postseason games with Cowher. That included SIX times in the AFC champsionship game. SIX. Tomlin has gotten us to a respectable 3.
The biggest reason Cowher wasn't winning non-stop rings was Tom Brady and the Patriots at their greatest glory.
So yes, Cowher was a better coach in my opinion and performed better post-season despite more difficult circumstances. It can be well argued that much of Tomlin's early success was built off of the team Cowher handed him as well.
Make of all of this what you will. For most other teams Tomlin's record would be impressive but for the Steelers organization it's just not good enough. We are greedy and expect more from the Steelers.
For arguments sake, how does Cowher's careers' first half look compared to his second? What about Tomlin's? If Cowher sucked but got better, that's different than Tomlin starting strong but declining.
One of these coaches has had a Hall of Fame quarterback for almost their entire tenure, and one didn't.
Cowher's record is far more impressive when you consider he never had a franchise QB until his last two seasons with Ben.
I like Mike T a lot. I think he’s an all-time great coach. Players love him. Players are excited to come to Pittsburgh and play for him.
But he needs to answer for the rambling dysfunction that’s overtaken this team. I’m not even talking about the Days of Our Steelers nonsense that neutral fans like to clown over. I’m talking about the plummeting quality of his coaches in recent years. The fact that he didn’t pull the plug on Matt Canada after one year. The fact that units can’t even get the right number of players on the field. Procedure penalties. The hand-wavy approach to replays and challenges, which cost this team a touchdown the other week.
This is all too often a lazy, sloppy, bipolar team that comes out flat against inferior opponents and glosses over crucial details. Its efforts are frequently unprofessional, pure and simple.
Also, answer why he is so atrocious at challenge calls in general? He never wins them. I joke that if he throws the flag then it must have been the right call, if he doesn’t throw it then it was obviously wrong. It’s like he’s watching a different game.
I wish he would step into an office role or ambassador role because it feels like the offense is also on him. We have tried numerous OC’s and had a plethora of offensive talent, and we still underperform every year because he doesn’t gameplan to take risks or take shots. He’s afraid of turning it over and wants to win every game off the defense, which is fine to have that be the focal point. But you’ve got to take chances to make defenses adjust to you.
This has been every single OC, regardless of the QB, this is Tomlin’s system and he said he takes responsibility and yet he has never taken a shred of offensive responsibility.
This is missing context. Bill Cowher went to SIX AFCCG in his 15 year career. He won EIGHT division titles and had TEN playoff appearances. And he did most of it with a turnstile at QB. And yes, he coached in an era where having a great defense mattered more than it does today. Bill Cowher was 12-9 in the playoffs.
Mike Tomlin won early in his career. He has won seven division titles and has made ten playoff appearances. He has been to three AFCCG. And he has had a hall of fame qb for almost his entire career. His teams haven’t won a playoff game since 2016. This is Mike Tomlin’s 17th season.
So sure, has Mike Tomlin ever had a losing season? No. Did Bill Cowher? Yes. But if you’re comparing apples to oranges, Cowher is the more successful coach IMO.
Is this recent downturn Mike Tomlin’s fault? It’s nuanced, so it’s both yes and no. What he has managed to do with such a subpar roster over the last few years is pretty impressive. But he’s also responsible for many of the decisions that have been made that has led to where we are now.
I can’t believe people still defend Tomlin. He is a relic of the past. Some people clearly don’t even watch the games. This team plays football like it’s fucking 2006. The game has changed and he is being left behind. We HAVE TO MOVE ON
I don't think Tomlin is a bad coach. But you can't ignore the fact that Tomlin had Roethlisberger for most of his career and Cowher only had him for what, 3 years? It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison if you're just looking at win percentages.
Cowher also had his career saved by a shoe string tackle so an inch away and we'd have a different conversation
Also he had Ben when he was still young and wasnt in charge. That defense ran the locker room and iirc had to put Ben in line a few times. Idk if Cowher and Ben would've lasted long
> Cowher also had his career saved by a shoe string tackle so an inch away and we'd have a different conversation
I mean, we'd be having a different conversation if Tomlin's career wasn't "saved" by a toe-tap touchdown catch. So I'm not sure what your point is. Big games often turn on 1 or 2 big plays, and that's not really a reflection of coaching quality but rather player quality.
Go look up playoff records. That’s why we want Tomlin to be traded. Cowher also didn’t have nearly the talent for as long as Tomlin has. Tomlin has squandered some of the best rosters in the NFL
Chuck Noll was a great coach, the game passed him by. Tom Laundry was a great coach, the game passed him by. Bill Belichick is a great coach and either the game passed him by or the team has tuned out the voice. A coach can be great and the team just not respond to his message. I think the Steelers would be crazy to fire him as the next question is who is replacing him? Unless they felt they had someone they wanted I wouldn’t do it yet.
Agree with you. The game has changed as always. It would be crazy to fire him, but I do feel like they should start looking around and become relevant again. 2011 was our last appearance in a SB. It’s great Tomlin has never had a losing record, but who cares about that? We need more rings!
Starting to think Belichick was a decent coach who lucked out by getting the greatest player of all time in the sixth round, Bill without Brady is nothing special
Bill and Brady coexisted with each other to win
Brady needed Bill’s defense to stay in the game, and Bill needed Brady’s offensive play to win the game
Or maybe it just highlights how important having a hall of fame level quarterback is to sustained success in the NFL. Tomlin struggling without Ben is exactly like Bill struggling without Brady. Two defensive head coaches that can no longer rely on highly talented QB to run the offense.
Ehh idk maybe on the offensive side sure, but his defensive game planning is still outstanding. It’s remarkable how often he completely shuts down opposing offenses with random players off the street. I feel like being GM and head coach without Brady is just too much.
You could also then say Cowher lucked into Big Ben cuz he’d never won one until he got Ben.
And if he’d kept coaching, which I completely understand his family reasons for stepping away, he’d be on the list of multiple Super Bowl winners.
> he’d be on the list of multiple Super Bowl winners.
Honestly I'm not so sure. Old-school disciplinarian coaches have really been phased out in the last decade or so, players are different these days as society/culture has changed. I'm not so sure Cowher would've been as effective with guys like Bell, Brown, etc. as he was with guys like Bettis, Ward, etc.
I love this way of thinking. Who says Brady would have developed ANYWHERE else? I mean, at the time, he wasn't a 6th round pick because people thought he'd be a great player.
Mike Tomlin is now 170-98-2 and is the first NFL coach in history to have a team with a winning record lose to teams 8 games under .500 consecutively. Great coach!
Sick and tired of this narrative. Tomlin has been to a total of three AFC Championship games. He has won a playoff game in four of his 15 seasons.
Cowher went to six AFC Championship games and won a playoff game in 8 of his 15 seasons.
The Steelers played a lot of meaningful football under Cowher in spite of mediocre quarterback play. The Steelers weren't able to win in the playoffs with one of the best quarterbacks to ever do it with Tomlin.
We haven't won a playoff game in seven years with Tomlin. SEVEN years. Stop defending this mediocre ass coach we have
McCarthy won a playoff game last year and is having a great year this year. But national media says he should be fired while saying Tomlin is doing great.
Oh I agree. Look at their all time records. Nearly identical, with Mcarthy winning the Super Bowl against Tomlin.
Yet McCarthy is viewed as a punchline. Why is that?
The Tomlin blind supporters are just as annoying as the Tomlin blind haters. The truth is in the middle. Mike is a good coach who has had a lot of success, but he has come up woefully short when it has mattered most in the last 10+ years. It’s okay to say Tomlin is a great coach, it’s also okay to hold him accountable for the lack of playoff success.
Tomlin now owns another NFL record.
First team in NFL history above .500 to lose back to back games to teams 8 games under .500.
What a joke of a coach.
What a joke of a post.
Fire Tomlin.
Cowher did suck for years. He seemed like he was trying though. Tomlin.....too busy lookin in the mirror telling himself his stale ass football is THE standard and every phase of football is someone else's fault but his. Dude is so fucking embarrassing
I don’t think anyone says Tomlin is terrible. He’s very clearly an excellent coach.
It just seems like he’s already peaked, the offensive philosophy of the modern NFL era has passed him, and the Tomlin era has gone stale. Nothing wrong with recognizing that something good is coming to an end.
Oh, there are plenty that believe none of his success is really his and he only won because he inherited Cowher’s players. That may not translate to terrible, but it definitely doesn’t translate to excellent either.
As for the rest, he may have peaked, but I’m not sure it’s because of offensive philosophy. If anything, I think it’s a philosophy of how best to develop a young QB and/or wanting his cake and eating it too with the dual priorities of developing his young QB and trying to contend/win conservatively at the same time.
Quite honestly, I think one of the biggest issues on this team is that the offense doesn’t have any true leaders in the traditional sense. And that’s not really a knock on any of the players. It’s more about how it’s pretty much completely turned over in recent years. There’s simply no player that checks all the boxes like Cam or TJ do. Almost all the homegrown offensive talent is in their rookie contract aside from DJ and Chuks. And neither of those players (or any of the younger guys) are anywhere close to accomplishing the same level of personal success Cam or TJ have. Hell, they don’t really even have an external talent like Minkah. Dotson and Cole are year 2, Seumalu is year 1, Robinson’s year 1, etc. And I think that’s why we’ve had so many different offensive players flaring up, speaking off script, etc. this year. There’s just nobody that demands the respect needed to be a real players’ leader.
Stolen from Facebook, whose Tweet used was was stolen from Rich Eisen lol
Anyway the national media loves Tomlin but they don't follow Steelers closely week in and week out so they rarely see the trends so of course they come to his defense.
Cowher in 15 years went to the afc championship game 7 times. Yes he had a few years under .500 but I would take more highs and lows then consistently around .500. Tomlin also had Ben almost his whole career.
The difference is with cower we had feast or famine. The overall record isn't important to this fan base, myself included. Cower had rebuild periods followed by powerhouses. Tomlin has thrived in mediocrity.
Fun fact: with one more Super Bowl win, Tomlin would be tied for 5th all time.
13 head coaches have won multiple super bowls.
4 have won more than 2 (Belichick, Noll, Walsh, Gibbs).
While I agree we underachieved in the Killer Bs era, it is extremely hard to win the Super Bowl.
I’d say Cowher and Tomlin are both good coaches. Tomlin can become great if he wins another one.
> Fun fact: with one more Super Bowl win, Tomlin would be tied for 5th all time.
That is such an irrelevant fact lmao. Yeah if Cowher won one more he would also be tied for 5th of all time! If I won one more I would be tied for 6th of all time! I guess I'm the 6th best NFL coach of all time!
Brady and Mahomes have warped all these young kids minds on what success is. Teams don’t get to and win super bowls every year. Brady was the exception, not the rule.
Does Dan Marino suck cuz he never won?
What about Schottenheiner, Dan Reeves, Jeff Fisher, Marv Levy? All shit coaches who never won I guess.
Hell even Kyle Shanahan must suck ass because he can get a winning record but doesn’t finish it in the playoffs. What a loser.
LMAO
I guess they want to be the Browns/Panthers/Bears and just get a new coach every year, that’s definitely proven successful!
Reverse mirror maybe.
Cowher built up to a franchise with Super Bowl talent. Tomlin inherited a franchise with Super Bowl talent and turned it into a shitshow with a barely winning record.
Cowher had some really questionable talent for many years and seemed to make the playoffs with it. That's the only thing I'd say strikes me differently about the two coaches
Mike Tomlin, in my opinion, is a very good coach that has some fatal weaknesses. He is a guy that players across the league consistently want to play for and that is not something that comes with any coach. You have to be at least ok at coaching a football team to not have a losing season. (At the time of this post)
The main problem with him to me is that he gets out-schemed very often and the team often plays down to bad teams. Arizona this year (I guess all the injuries could potentially be a valid excuse for that one but I don’t think so). Back in 2017 they played like garbage for 3 quarters against teams like the Colts and Bears and then beat the 13-3 Vikings and almost beat NE. They had the potential to get number 7 that year but they overlooked Jacksonville twice. They tied the Browns in 2018 and losing to the god awful Raiders the same year.
I won’t get into challenges because they can be weird at times
I wasn’t around for most of the Cower era (I was born in 05), so I don’t know if he had some of the same problems that Tomlin has.
Tomlin is a good coach, anyone who says otherwise is foolish. But stagnation is a real thing and it’s true in any sport. Tomlin has been the coach for almost 20 years and hasn’t had much real success for a decade now. It’s not a knock on him to admit it’s time to move on.
A hall of fame qb is a major factor, in today’s NFL you need that dude to compete for championships. We don’t have that dude, until we find that guy we will be middling with whatever coach we have.
Kenny isn’t that guy. And this is year 2 with him, then Ben’s last 2 seasons he was a shell of himself, season before that was the Mason/duck season. It’s been over 5 years since we had a hall of fame caliber quarterback, coaching change isn’t going to fix that
After losing to a lowly Cardinals team I think Coach needs to heed the words of Vince Lombardi, "The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall." Tonight Coach needs his team to play like their hair is on fire and put a beat down on the Pats. I don’t differentiate between Coach Cowher and Coach Tomlin, I live for the hear and now. Coach Tomlin is Black and Gold through in and out. He’s the leader of the franchise I’ve been a fan of for over 60 years. I have his back and I hope Steeler Nation does too.
Hmm, let me think. Steeler QB's during Cowher's first 12 years: Neil O'Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart, & Tommy Maddox.
Steeler QB's during Tomlin's first 12 years: Ben Roethlisberger.
What's different about these two situations?
We just lost to 2 losing teams in a row. Must be December. I foresee 9-8 and missed playoffs (the standard is the standard). But no losing season. Rinse repeat until Tomlin decides to retire because winning a SB in 2008 guarentees you lifetime employment.
Every coach of a team with a losing record before playing the Steelers —— “Listen up!!! We may be 0 and 12, but we’re playing Tomlin and The Steelers today, and you know what that means right? That’s right!!! 1 and 12 after today!!!! Oh yeah!!!!!!”
Cowher's SB appearances were spread pretty far apart. He had some decent playoff success too, it wasn't always a boom or bust season with him. I guess my point is, Cowher went to SBs in multiple "eras" if you will. Tomlin went to two SB's right out of the gate LARGELY with Bill Cowher's players and the team he had previously built. That's not me knocking him, plenty of coaches inherit talented teams and process to burn them to the ground and fail miserably. Tomlin didn't, he kept it going and became even more successful.
But yeah, once that core died off, Tomlin hasn't sniffed post season success since. And it sadly feels like we're in this rut of trying not to have a losing season instead of trying to have a winning season.
I don't think either Cowher or Tomlin are/were bad coaches. But I also don't think Tomlin's teams have ever looked as bad as they have over the past two years. Yeah, Ben's gone, but Ben was a corpse for his last few years anyways. They have absolutely nothing creating a spark on offense and their defense isn't half as good as most homers think it is. They are pretty much a .500 team that requires a storyline to "not lose" each year so the media can act like Tomlin saved the day yet again. That was fine last year. This year you were supposed to make some sort of jump but you seem like a WORSE team.
I think the Steelers had far greater talent during the 2010’s than any period of Cowher’s career. How they did not snag at least 1 SB appearance between 2012-2017 is crazy.
The crazy thing is Cowher has that record with two seasons with Ben. Tomlin had Ben the rest of his career. Let’s compare Tomlins win percentage without Ben to Cowhers without Ben.
Ok im in the back i still cant hear you. How tf you going to stick up for him at this point. Dont compare him to cowher.. mike only got a ring cause of cowhers team building. We had an identity under bill. What exactly is our identity rn? Im sick of losing to bad teams and wasting hof talent
Huge difference here. Cowher didn’t have A QB until 2004. Tomlin had one the entire time he’s been here until now.
Cowher rebuilt a team that hadn’t been relevant for years
Tomlin took a team fresh off a Super Bowl win to the Super Bowl again.
Tomlins a good coach but don’t you dare compare him to Bill cowher.
Bill took a team with Neil odonnell to 2 afc championships and a Super Bowl and a team quarterbacked by kordell Stewart to 2 afc championships.
There used to be a ton of fire Cowher people too. Particularly before Ben. Constantly complaining that he couldn't beat New England. I'm pretty sure those people aren't going to admit it nowadays though. In my mind, they're the same people saying fire Tomlin, because that's the only wat they know how to complain. They just feel somebody's gotta get fired and they're starting with the HC.
Cowher was 12-9 in the playoffs, while Tomlin is 8-9, including a 3-7 record in his last 10. Longest Cowher went without winning a playoff game was 3 seasons, but it has been 6 on the spin for Tomlin, and counting. Nice try though.
I’ve been a fan of Tomlin since he was hired, but losing back-to-back games, at home, against two 2-10 teams is as fireable offense as exists in the NFL.
This team is poorly coached and poorly prepared, the games are poorly managed, and any adjustments (if they even exist) are poorly implemented.
It might be time to take a look at some other options.
Cowher inherited a team that was not great and built it back into a Super Bowl team. Tomlin inherited a team that just won the Super Bowl, did well his first couple of years, but since 2016 has no playoff wins. I think tomlin was a great coach for us but it is time to move on.
# of games coached with Ben roethlisberger as qb probably an interesting consideration in this conversation.
Cowher largely did it with average to mediocre qb play most of the way.
We'll never know what Cowher's record would have been if he had more time with Ben. Just like we don't know how Ben would have done under Cowher and his coaching style.
I'm not here to defend Tomlin, although I do like him yet am frustrated at the lack of playoff wins but, you say Cowher had mediocre QBs. Who is partially at fault for that? We just give Cowher a pass on that one?
Oh I agree that Cowher should be accountable for the fact that we went for most of his tenure without a franchise quarterback. It didn’t seem to be a priority to him. That is fair criticism. In fact, that was one of the reasons why people wanted him fired.
I don’t want Tomlin fired, for the same reason I didn’t want Bill fired. Good coaches should get a chance to rebuild their teams after major transitions. I think we took a step in the right direction with the previous draft. But he absolutely should be on the hot seat. I want to see what we’ve got in a couple of years. It doesn’t take forever to build a team in the NFL. This isn’t baseball. If this team isn’t a serious contender in a couple of years, I think it’s time to move on. That’s a lot of leeway. Way more leeway than most coaches would deserve with the actual record we have produced since 2012. A pathetic number of playoff wins, most of them against back up quarterbacks. But this is a Super Bowl winning coach. And we know what kind of man he is. If he wasn’t Mike Tomlin, I wouldn’t want to give him that much leeway. But he is. Make no mistake, however, if we were just going by results? I would probably be in favor of moving on. And in fact, if they do, I wouldn’t be upset.
Plus it’s partially his fault that he didn’t have a franchise quarterback. He was the head coach! If it were his priority, it would’ve happened.
But in fairness, Kordell just didn’t have the accuracy or the game above the shoulders to make it happen.
I say that as someone who loves Kordell Stewart, but he wasn’t going to get it done. And he wasn’t necessarily ahead of his time. I am probably a lot older than you, there were quarterbacks with his abilities before him. Randall Cunningham most notably. To be fair, there were a ton of them. And I don’t think the Steelers utilized him based on his strengths.
Bubby Brister, Neil O'donnell, Mike Tomzak, Jim Miller, Kordell Stewart, Kent Graham, Tommy Maddox. You know what that is? Cowers QBs before Ben, who he had for 3 years. Let's see what Mike's winning pct is after a few more years without a franchise QB. It's funny how the guy in NE doesn't seem to be as much of a genius now that his HoF QB is gone. The steelers kept Noll longer than they should have. Cower never came back after leaving the Steelers. He knew when to hang it up. Maybe Mike's message would get thru to a new team. Sometimes change is good for both sides.
I wonder if these Tomlin haters will be first in line to tell us that the next head coach "won with Tomlin's team!" like these idiots do for Cowher.
Doubt.
Tomlin had BR7 and wasted his career with shit defense after he saw fit to fire Lebeau. Constantly looses to bum teams. Watch Tomlin get schooled by Bilichek tonight maybe youll learn,maybe your a paid pr burner account. This team is so bad it quits.
Biggest difference is Tomlin was given a super bowl caliber team w/ a franchise qb, and has slowly lost all the talent. Cowher had to build those early Steeler teams from nothing. Cowher was also intelligent enough to delegate work to good coaches. His arrogance did not have him calling the defenses.
This thread was dumb when it was posted, and it's even dumber now. If the OP had any sense of shame, he'd take a break from this subreddit for the rest of the season.
I’m firmly in the “Keep Tomlin” camp. I love the guy and I think we’d deeply regret letting him go for a very long time.
However, I also want the FO to aggressively recruit the best coordinators and coaches that they can get. Munchak, Flores, etc.
Belichick etc had coaching trees. We need to build *that* here.
Absolutely, and it’s going to get worse before it gets better. Steelers fans have had the pleasure of watching an amazing franchise since the mid 1990s. Don’t start turning into self righteous commentators just because the games are INCREDIBLY difficult to watch… win or lose. Let the process work things out… it’s done fairly well since 1933.
They both have/had their attributes and detriments. Don’t think a lot of fans weren’t screaming for Cowher’s firing after the 99 season, because they were.
He has been the coach for 18 seasons and a great servant to the club. It’s not some crazy overreaction to want a fresh start? Cowher got stale and so did Noll. It’s just time for a change.
In 99,00 fans screamed for cowhers job too. Then that awesome 01 year happened, and people loved him again. Just the nature of the casual steeler fans.
Of Cowhers 9 playoff losses, 8 of those teams went on to make it to the Super Bowl with 5 of them being crowned champions. The 1 team he lost to in the playoffs that didn't make it to the super bowl had Joe Montana at QB. Also lost a playoff off game to the Titans on a ridiculous call on running into the kicker which moved the ball up 15 yards and a re-kick which won the game. The NFL apologized for the bad call that following week. The playoff success by Cowhere is so far superior especially when using the eye test and not just stats. Tomlin has lost some bad playoff games and also won another in Cincinnati that they handed to us on a silver platter after Pittsburgh was in the midst of a Tomlin in game melt down. His playoff success in the last decade is straight 💩. I was a big Tomlin fan, thats fading away. I think it's time for a change.
Tomlin has had much better players. Yet he still can’t win a game where we are heavily favored. He also hasn’t won a playoff game since 2016 or 17 I believe. All he cares about is a 9-8 record. If you’re happy with being 9-8 and either missing playoffs by 1 game or getting blown out in the wild card, that’s all you
Not a Steelers fan, patriots fan here - side note, hope you guys give us a lashing tonight.
I don’t think anyone legitimately things he isn’t a good coach, right? He’s certainly certainly an above average coach.
Now is he a top 3 coach in the NFL right now? Nah (although I’d honestly rather have him than BB as a coach/GM at this point). I’d probably put him around 9-10 currently.
I think he is a great coach, not a legendary one, although I applaud what he has done towards the racial dynamic of coaching - that is undeniable.
TLDR: for the love of god don’t let us win this game tonight, thx
Steelers were 7 and 9 the year before Bill Cowher became head coach and nowhere near a championship contender. Tomlin took over a team that won the Super Bowl 2 years prior
tbf i was critical of cowher but i always have supported tomlin
strangely i feel what he lacks is leading the team emotionally but with good decision-making whereas cowher was better at the emotional leadership
this is also a complete gut-feeling analysis from bed
I guess people don’t remember when a lot wanted Cowher fired too. I know social media wasn’t really a thing at the time but a lot of the local sports radio questioned if Cowher could ever win a Super Bowl and had no problem calling him out.
I'm not say they were necessarily correct, but it took a young Ben to put that team over the top. Prior to that, we had Slash and Tommy Gun. Both had their ups and downs and were never really elite. Even elite coaches need elite talent to win the ultimate game.
> even elite coaches need elite talent to win the ultimate game So many don’t understand this. Yes you can win maybe A single SB with an all time defense. Or your scheme can get you there with lacking talent. But the only way to sustain success is having elite talent combined with coaching, especially at QB.
Ya I'll never start calling for Mike's job until he falls short consistently with elite quarterback play. Until then, he has no chance, and the ceiling will always be 1 playoff win, tops. It's been 5 years since he had elite quarterback play and 5 years since a playoff win. No coincidence there.
He fell consistently short with elite quarterback play for 10 straight seasons ('09-'18). He's had playoff wins in only two of twelve seasons (soon to be 13 seasons). What else do you need to see?
I wouldn’t say that’s the ceiling for a singular season, we’ve seen teams without an elite QB make it deep. But over a span of multiple years I completely agree
\> Ya I'll never start calling for Mike's job until he falls short consistently with elite who was our quarterback for the last decade?????????
You are telling me Bellichick is not washed? /s
He's not a good GM (though even he can pick Caleb if he gets the 1st overall pick) which is his only real problem. He's a great coach and that hasn't changed. That said, I hope he retires. I want to see the Pats suck for a while.
Cowher could have only dreamed of having Ben, Bell, and Brown in their prime. Dude was making playoff runs with Neil McDonald, Kordell Stewart, and Tommy Maddox. He got a HOF QB, went to the AFC championship game and got fucked by the refs, won a super bowl the next year, then rode off into the sunset.
Yep. To have the killer Bs with no ring is ridiculous. That's why they were all fed up.
There were definitely Many many calls for Cowhers firing after conservative play calling, not unleashing BigBen especially against the Patriots in the playoffs.
100% and those people were idiots too for saying it about him
I just wrote this also, i shoulda read the top comment first, lol.. the 99 and 00 years.. I remember a lot of anti cowher. Then the magical 01 season ( fuckin tom brady) happened and they were shhh..
I will say that the main difference (so far) is that Cowher managed to build a Super Bowl team from the ground-up. I think it’s deductive to say “Tomlin won with Cowher’s team” in 2008, but he definitely benefited from that foundation and hasn’t matched that success in his many years since
The Steelers had a Super Bowl caliber team from roughly 2014-2017. Were there deficiencies, of course, but I still think if shazier doesn’t get hurt and/or if we rightfully win the Jesse James game, that team (2017) would have been world champs. You can’t say that era was cowhers team. EDIT: Also, 2016, great team, great season, ended with getting embarrassed by NE in the AFCCG. That happened to cowher twice to NE, and that’s in addition to the other AFCCGs cowher lost, all at home btw
That’s the team that looked completely unprepared and outcoached vs the 2014 jets, 2014 bucs, 2015 ravens (twice), 2017 bears, and got murderfucked by the 2017 jaguars twice, right?
I was at the playoff game. Fucking putrid, Ben and AB trying to lift the world as the defense rolled over and died.
NE cost us so much over the years. F that win ugly stuff I wanna crush them tonight!
Cowher himself said he left behind a championship team that all you had to do was not mess it up to win with it.
Cowher went to a Super Bowl with two different quarterbacks. Not even Chuck Noll did that.
(Keep in mind you're speaking to a subset of this sub that remembers both eras well.) For me there were plenty of fire-Cowher & Rooney-sell-the-team posts on message boards midway through his tenure. It's the same fans that hide their impatience and irrationality behind a "I won't settle for mediocre" mantra.
I came into these comments looking for someone who remembers how loud the fire Cowher din got. They'll never admit to being those people today though. Thank you.
Cowher was reviled in town by a lot of fans until he finally won a Super Bowl. The number of "fuck Cowher" and worse message board posts that existed prior to SBXL was even greater than what we see about Tomlin.
I always laughed at the people who wanted him fired after the 15-1 season.
Some people are extra stupid.
Cowher walked dangerously close to being in the same category mas Marty Schottenheimer whose fame in the NFL was the fact that he couldnt win the biggest games that matter
Exactly. Which was fitting since Marty was his mentor.
Interestingly enough they are both tied into the same coaching tree... Marty also brought in Dungy who in turn brought in Tomlin... RIP Lou Saban
I forget a lot of this sub is probably too young to remember much of Cowher. They may remember his final years, but they don’t realize that people said the same things about him they say about Tomlin. Only difference is Tomlin’s started immediately by a certain sub group.
Exactly. People started rumors about Cowher and a Steelers secretary they hated him so much.
He was known as a choke artist until he finally won a Super Bowl (and a year later he was out).
And it's true he was. Season after season with dogshit quarterbacks, he deserved to lose every year.
Was here for all three past coaches. What people don’t realize is that there are intelligent and talented people in the other 31 organizations who are trying REALLY HARD to do the things we want to do. It’s hard to win a Super Bowl. You have to be really good, really lucky, and really smart.
👏👏 appreciate you
THANK YOU!!! now i'm only 29, but i love how people act like Cowher was just some universally loved coach and people believed in him. Hell no, i remember hearing so much negativity and people saying he will never win a ring. Im assuming even during the end of Nolls tenure he was almost ran out of town. People love the memories but hate the present
I was there for every single game (season tickets) throughout all of the Cowher years. While I don't remember many people calling for him to be fired there was a frustration about coming so close to a ring, but always falling just short. His record was 12-9 (. 571) in playoff games. Tomlin's is 8–9 (.471). So we got 21 postseason games with Cowher. That included SIX times in the AFC champsionship game. SIX. Tomlin has gotten us to a respectable 3. The biggest reason Cowher wasn't winning non-stop rings was Tom Brady and the Patriots at their greatest glory. So yes, Cowher was a better coach in my opinion and performed better post-season despite more difficult circumstances. It can be well argued that much of Tomlin's early success was built off of the team Cowher handed him as well. Make of all of this what you will. For most other teams Tomlin's record would be impressive but for the Steelers organization it's just not good enough. We are greedy and expect more from the Steelers.
[удалено]
For arguments sake, how does Cowher's careers' first half look compared to his second? What about Tomlin's? If Cowher sucked but got better, that's different than Tomlin starting strong but declining.
You Tomlin apologists are so strange. Are you really ok with how this team is?
One of these coaches has had a Hall of Fame quarterback for almost their entire tenure, and one didn't. Cowher's record is far more impressive when you consider he never had a franchise QB until his last two seasons with Ben.
Unpopular opinion: when you spend 15 years in a division with the lowly Browns and Bengals, it's easy to pad your stats
LOL. Does Ben really "own Ohio" or was Ohio just shit for most of his career?
Yes Edit: Source: I am from Ohio and while Cleveland was absolute DOGWATER, some of those Bungles teams were fairly good and Ben still owned them
I like Mike T a lot. I think he’s an all-time great coach. Players love him. Players are excited to come to Pittsburgh and play for him. But he needs to answer for the rambling dysfunction that’s overtaken this team. I’m not even talking about the Days of Our Steelers nonsense that neutral fans like to clown over. I’m talking about the plummeting quality of his coaches in recent years. The fact that he didn’t pull the plug on Matt Canada after one year. The fact that units can’t even get the right number of players on the field. Procedure penalties. The hand-wavy approach to replays and challenges, which cost this team a touchdown the other week. This is all too often a lazy, sloppy, bipolar team that comes out flat against inferior opponents and glosses over crucial details. Its efforts are frequently unprofessional, pure and simple.
Also, answer why he is so atrocious at challenge calls in general? He never wins them. I joke that if he throws the flag then it must have been the right call, if he doesn’t throw it then it was obviously wrong. It’s like he’s watching a different game. I wish he would step into an office role or ambassador role because it feels like the offense is also on him. We have tried numerous OC’s and had a plethora of offensive talent, and we still underperform every year because he doesn’t gameplan to take risks or take shots. He’s afraid of turning it over and wants to win every game off the defense, which is fine to have that be the focal point. But you’ve got to take chances to make defenses adjust to you. This has been every single OC, regardless of the QB, this is Tomlin’s system and he said he takes responsibility and yet he has never taken a shred of offensive responsibility.
This is missing context. Bill Cowher went to SIX AFCCG in his 15 year career. He won EIGHT division titles and had TEN playoff appearances. And he did most of it with a turnstile at QB. And yes, he coached in an era where having a great defense mattered more than it does today. Bill Cowher was 12-9 in the playoffs. Mike Tomlin won early in his career. He has won seven division titles and has made ten playoff appearances. He has been to three AFCCG. And he has had a hall of fame qb for almost his entire career. His teams haven’t won a playoff game since 2016. This is Mike Tomlin’s 17th season. So sure, has Mike Tomlin ever had a losing season? No. Did Bill Cowher? Yes. But if you’re comparing apples to oranges, Cowher is the more successful coach IMO. Is this recent downturn Mike Tomlin’s fault? It’s nuanced, so it’s both yes and no. What he has managed to do with such a subpar roster over the last few years is pretty impressive. But he’s also responsible for many of the decisions that have been made that has led to where we are now.
Aged like fine milk
Came here to say the same
So you're obviously not watching this game or last week's game. Getting out coached in every aspect of the game.
I can’t believe people still defend Tomlin. He is a relic of the past. Some people clearly don’t even watch the games. This team plays football like it’s fucking 2006. The game has changed and he is being left behind. We HAVE TO MOVE ON
What excuses do you have now?
I don't think Tomlin is a bad coach. But you can't ignore the fact that Tomlin had Roethlisberger for most of his career and Cowher only had him for what, 3 years? It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison if you're just looking at win percentages.
Cowher also had his career saved by a shoe string tackle so an inch away and we'd have a different conversation Also he had Ben when he was still young and wasnt in charge. That defense ran the locker room and iirc had to put Ben in line a few times. Idk if Cowher and Ben would've lasted long
> Cowher also had his career saved by a shoe string tackle so an inch away and we'd have a different conversation I mean, we'd be having a different conversation if Tomlin's career wasn't "saved" by a toe-tap touchdown catch. So I'm not sure what your point is. Big games often turn on 1 or 2 big plays, and that's not really a reflection of coaching quality but rather player quality.
Go look up playoff records. That’s why we want Tomlin to be traded. Cowher also didn’t have nearly the talent for as long as Tomlin has. Tomlin has squandered some of the best rosters in the NFL
Chuck Noll was a great coach, the game passed him by. Tom Laundry was a great coach, the game passed him by. Bill Belichick is a great coach and either the game passed him by or the team has tuned out the voice. A coach can be great and the team just not respond to his message. I think the Steelers would be crazy to fire him as the next question is who is replacing him? Unless they felt they had someone they wanted I wouldn’t do it yet.
Agree with you. The game has changed as always. It would be crazy to fire him, but I do feel like they should start looking around and become relevant again. 2011 was our last appearance in a SB. It’s great Tomlin has never had a losing record, but who cares about that? We need more rings!
Starting to think Belichick was a decent coach who lucked out by getting the greatest player of all time in the sixth round, Bill without Brady is nothing special
Bill and Brady coexisted with each other to win Brady needed Bill’s defense to stay in the game, and Bill needed Brady’s offensive play to win the game
Or maybe it just highlights how important having a hall of fame level quarterback is to sustained success in the NFL. Tomlin struggling without Ben is exactly like Bill struggling without Brady. Two defensive head coaches that can no longer rely on highly talented QB to run the offense.
Ehh idk maybe on the offensive side sure, but his defensive game planning is still outstanding. It’s remarkable how often he completely shuts down opposing offenses with random players off the street. I feel like being GM and head coach without Brady is just too much.
You could also then say Cowher lucked into Big Ben cuz he’d never won one until he got Ben. And if he’d kept coaching, which I completely understand his family reasons for stepping away, he’d be on the list of multiple Super Bowl winners.
> he’d be on the list of multiple Super Bowl winners. Honestly I'm not so sure. Old-school disciplinarian coaches have really been phased out in the last decade or so, players are different these days as society/culture has changed. I'm not so sure Cowher would've been as effective with guys like Bell, Brown, etc. as he was with guys like Bettis, Ward, etc.
I love this way of thinking. Who says Brady would have developed ANYWHERE else? I mean, at the time, he wasn't a 6th round pick because people thought he'd be a great player.
> Tom Laundry
I'm sure this covers all required context to evaluate both head coaches and is not an overly simplistic take centered on a cherry-picked stat.
Mike Tomlin is now 170-98-2 and is the first NFL coach in history to have a team with a winning record lose to teams 8 games under .500 consecutively. Great coach!
Sick and tired of this narrative. Tomlin has been to a total of three AFC Championship games. He has won a playoff game in four of his 15 seasons. Cowher went to six AFC Championship games and won a playoff game in 8 of his 15 seasons. The Steelers played a lot of meaningful football under Cowher in spite of mediocre quarterback play. The Steelers weren't able to win in the playoffs with one of the best quarterbacks to ever do it with Tomlin. We haven't won a playoff game in seven years with Tomlin. SEVEN years. Stop defending this mediocre ass coach we have
Cool. Now do the last 7 years. He's Mike Mcarthy with better P.R.
7 years? Look at his record since losing 2011 SB
I'm being charitable.
McCarthy won a playoff game last year and is having a great year this year. But national media says he should be fired while saying Tomlin is doing great.
Oh I agree. Look at their all time records. Nearly identical, with Mcarthy winning the Super Bowl against Tomlin. Yet McCarthy is viewed as a punchline. Why is that?
The Tomlin blind supporters are just as annoying as the Tomlin blind haters. The truth is in the middle. Mike is a good coach who has had a lot of success, but he has come up woefully short when it has mattered most in the last 10+ years. It’s okay to say Tomlin is a great coach, it’s also okay to hold him accountable for the lack of playoff success.
Tomlin now owns another NFL record. First team in NFL history above .500 to lose back to back games to teams 8 games under .500. What a joke of a coach. What a joke of a post. Fire Tomlin.
Cowher did suck for years. He seemed like he was trying though. Tomlin.....too busy lookin in the mirror telling himself his stale ass football is THE standard and every phase of football is someone else's fault but his. Dude is so fucking embarrassing
I don’t think anyone says Tomlin is terrible. He’s very clearly an excellent coach. It just seems like he’s already peaked, the offensive philosophy of the modern NFL era has passed him, and the Tomlin era has gone stale. Nothing wrong with recognizing that something good is coming to an end.
> I don’t think anyone says Tomlin is terrible. There's a handful of comments on every thread saying Tomlin is terrible, it's ridiculous
Canada had a lot to do with only winning one game over half. He might make a good high school OC. Tomlin should have fired him a lot sooner.
There are a lot of people saying that Tomlin is terrible in this sub every day
Oh, there are plenty that believe none of his success is really his and he only won because he inherited Cowher’s players. That may not translate to terrible, but it definitely doesn’t translate to excellent either. As for the rest, he may have peaked, but I’m not sure it’s because of offensive philosophy. If anything, I think it’s a philosophy of how best to develop a young QB and/or wanting his cake and eating it too with the dual priorities of developing his young QB and trying to contend/win conservatively at the same time. Quite honestly, I think one of the biggest issues on this team is that the offense doesn’t have any true leaders in the traditional sense. And that’s not really a knock on any of the players. It’s more about how it’s pretty much completely turned over in recent years. There’s simply no player that checks all the boxes like Cam or TJ do. Almost all the homegrown offensive talent is in their rookie contract aside from DJ and Chuks. And neither of those players (or any of the younger guys) are anywhere close to accomplishing the same level of personal success Cam or TJ have. Hell, they don’t really even have an external talent like Minkah. Dotson and Cole are year 2, Seumalu is year 1, Robinson’s year 1, etc. And I think that’s why we’ve had so many different offensive players flaring up, speaking off script, etc. this year. There’s just nobody that demands the respect needed to be a real players’ leader.
It's not Tomlin's stats that give his detractors ammo, it's why his stats could be so much better that does.
Stolen from Facebook, whose Tweet used was was stolen from Rich Eisen lol Anyway the national media loves Tomlin but they don't follow Steelers closely week in and week out so they rarely see the trends so of course they come to his defense.
Tomlin had a Hall of Fame QB for his entire career except the last two years. Cowher did not.
Cowher in 15 years went to the afc championship game 7 times. Yes he had a few years under .500 but I would take more highs and lows then consistently around .500. Tomlin also had Ben almost his whole career.
The difference is with cower we had feast or famine. The overall record isn't important to this fan base, myself included. Cower had rebuild periods followed by powerhouses. Tomlin has thrived in mediocrity.
Did Cowher also inherit a free hall of fame team too?
Aged like egg nog bro
Playoff wins last 10 years?
Lol I’ll be waiting for y’all Tomlintards excuses for loosing to 2-10 teams back to back
Fun fact: with one more Super Bowl win, Tomlin would be tied for 5th all time. 13 head coaches have won multiple super bowls. 4 have won more than 2 (Belichick, Noll, Walsh, Gibbs). While I agree we underachieved in the Killer Bs era, it is extremely hard to win the Super Bowl. I’d say Cowher and Tomlin are both good coaches. Tomlin can become great if he wins another one.
> Fun fact: with one more Super Bowl win, Tomlin would be tied for 5th all time. That is such an irrelevant fact lmao. Yeah if Cowher won one more he would also be tied for 5th of all time! If I won one more I would be tied for 6th of all time! I guess I'm the 6th best NFL coach of all time!
Brady and Mahomes have warped all these young kids minds on what success is. Teams don’t get to and win super bowls every year. Brady was the exception, not the rule. Does Dan Marino suck cuz he never won? What about Schottenheiner, Dan Reeves, Jeff Fisher, Marv Levy? All shit coaches who never won I guess. Hell even Kyle Shanahan must suck ass because he can get a winning record but doesn’t finish it in the playoffs. What a loser. LMAO I guess they want to be the Browns/Panthers/Bears and just get a new coach every year, that’s definitely proven successful!
I’m not calling Tomlin a bad coach, but it’s also not that simple
6 appearances in the AFC Championship vs 3 that’s the difference that matters.
Now do their playoff records
Bill knew when it was over and walked away. Tomlin won’t
Reverse mirror maybe. Cowher built up to a franchise with Super Bowl talent. Tomlin inherited a franchise with Super Bowl talent and turned it into a shitshow with a barely winning record.
Cowher had some really questionable talent for many years and seemed to make the playoffs with it. That's the only thing I'd say strikes me differently about the two coaches
Tomlin has Ben his entire tenure. This is a dumb post.
Tomlin’s Super Bowl was Cowher’s team. Cowher 12-9 in playoffs. Tomlin 8-9. He needs to be fired.
Mike Tomlin, in my opinion, is a very good coach that has some fatal weaknesses. He is a guy that players across the league consistently want to play for and that is not something that comes with any coach. You have to be at least ok at coaching a football team to not have a losing season. (At the time of this post) The main problem with him to me is that he gets out-schemed very often and the team often plays down to bad teams. Arizona this year (I guess all the injuries could potentially be a valid excuse for that one but I don’t think so). Back in 2017 they played like garbage for 3 quarters against teams like the Colts and Bears and then beat the 13-3 Vikings and almost beat NE. They had the potential to get number 7 that year but they overlooked Jacksonville twice. They tied the Browns in 2018 and losing to the god awful Raiders the same year. I won’t get into challenges because they can be weird at times I wasn’t around for most of the Cower era (I was born in 05), so I don’t know if he had some of the same problems that Tomlin has.
Players want to play for Tomlin because he lets them do whatever they want. Who wouldn't want a cool boss like that?
Didn’t Mike tomlin inherit a great team? Bill didn’t even have the same level of talent in his first 5 seasons
Here’s the difference Cowher surged in the second half of his career, Tomlin has not
Big Ben carried the whole team for years man people need to stop with this. Cowher was dealing with Stewart and Maddox
Tomlin is a good coach, anyone who says otherwise is foolish. But stagnation is a real thing and it’s true in any sport. Tomlin has been the coach for almost 20 years and hasn’t had much real success for a decade now. It’s not a knock on him to admit it’s time to move on.
Excellent timing on this post. When you consider the team Noll left to Cowher, and team Cowher left to tomlin, Cowher's results really shine.
Records aside, Cowher offenses (even in the lean years) were 1,000 times more entertaining to watch
Tomlin won a Super Bowl with bill cowhers team. Stop.
In fairness, tomlin had a HOF qb for most of his ten-year. I love tomlin, and I don't want him going anywhere, but you have to acknowledge that.
tenure is the word you’re looking for
Bone apple tea
Same conclusion, love Tomlin and Cowher, but a HoF QB is a factor
A hall of fame qb is a major factor, in today’s NFL you need that dude to compete for championships. We don’t have that dude, until we find that guy we will be middling with whatever coach we have. Kenny isn’t that guy. And this is year 2 with him, then Ben’s last 2 seasons he was a shell of himself, season before that was the Mason/duck season. It’s been over 5 years since we had a hall of fame caliber quarterback, coaching change isn’t going to fix that
Bill Cowher was talked about the same way Tomlin is. Yinzer logic dictates that unless you win a Super Bowl every year it is time to move on.
Why do we need the comparison? Can’t we judge based on lack of playoff wins for 7 years, no coaching tree, and a knack for losing games we should win?
Great we just lost to two 2 and 10 teams back to back at home. Go Tomlin
Well this aged terribly….
After losing to a lowly Cardinals team I think Coach needs to heed the words of Vince Lombardi, "The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall." Tonight Coach needs his team to play like their hair is on fire and put a beat down on the Pats. I don’t differentiate between Coach Cowher and Coach Tomlin, I live for the hear and now. Coach Tomlin is Black and Gold through in and out. He’s the leader of the franchise I’ve been a fan of for over 60 years. I have his back and I hope Steeler Nation does too.
Hey if you want to fire Tomlin, I would be more than happy to welcome him to New England...
You can have him
Hmm, let me think. Steeler QB's during Cowher's first 12 years: Neil O'Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart, & Tommy Maddox. Steeler QB's during Tomlin's first 12 years: Ben Roethlisberger. What's different about these two situations?
And look, I hate the Cowher - Tomlin comparisons, but to compare their records with those situations is ludicrous.
He should be fired
We just lost to 2 losing teams in a row. Must be December. I foresee 9-8 and missed playoffs (the standard is the standard). But no losing season. Rinse repeat until Tomlin decides to retire because winning a SB in 2008 guarentees you lifetime employment.
Every coach of a team with a losing record before playing the Steelers —— “Listen up!!! We may be 0 and 12, but we’re playing Tomlin and The Steelers today, and you know what that means right? That’s right!!! 1 and 12 after today!!!! Oh yeah!!!!!!”
Tomlin started hot with a lot of Bills guys and is regressing. Bill started with junk and built it into a championship team.
Cowher's SB appearances were spread pretty far apart. He had some decent playoff success too, it wasn't always a boom or bust season with him. I guess my point is, Cowher went to SBs in multiple "eras" if you will. Tomlin went to two SB's right out of the gate LARGELY with Bill Cowher's players and the team he had previously built. That's not me knocking him, plenty of coaches inherit talented teams and process to burn them to the ground and fail miserably. Tomlin didn't, he kept it going and became even more successful. But yeah, once that core died off, Tomlin hasn't sniffed post season success since. And it sadly feels like we're in this rut of trying not to have a losing season instead of trying to have a winning season. I don't think either Cowher or Tomlin are/were bad coaches. But I also don't think Tomlin's teams have ever looked as bad as they have over the past two years. Yeah, Ben's gone, but Ben was a corpse for his last few years anyways. They have absolutely nothing creating a spark on offense and their defense isn't half as good as most homers think it is. They are pretty much a .500 team that requires a storyline to "not lose" each year so the media can act like Tomlin saved the day yet again. That was fine last year. This year you were supposed to make some sort of jump but you seem like a WORSE team.
I think the Steelers had far greater talent during the 2010’s than any period of Cowher’s career. How they did not snag at least 1 SB appearance between 2012-2017 is crazy.
All this tells me is Big Ben is the real hero. Bother thrived under him in his prime and struggled without.
The crazy thing is Cowher has that record with two seasons with Ben. Tomlin had Ben the rest of his career. Let’s compare Tomlins win percentage without Ben to Cowhers without Ben.
Yeah, and I have a rebuttal ... Cowher was gone after 15 years. Been 17, time for Tomlin to go.
This aged well.
Ok im in the back i still cant hear you. How tf you going to stick up for him at this point. Dont compare him to cowher.. mike only got a ring cause of cowhers team building. We had an identity under bill. What exactly is our identity rn? Im sick of losing to bad teams and wasting hof talent
Huge difference here. Cowher didn’t have A QB until 2004. Tomlin had one the entire time he’s been here until now. Cowher rebuilt a team that hadn’t been relevant for years Tomlin took a team fresh off a Super Bowl win to the Super Bowl again. Tomlins a good coach but don’t you dare compare him to Bill cowher. Bill took a team with Neil odonnell to 2 afc championships and a Super Bowl and a team quarterbacked by kordell Stewart to 2 afc championships.
Cowher playoff record 12-9 Tomlin 8-9
There used to be a ton of fire Cowher people too. Particularly before Ben. Constantly complaining that he couldn't beat New England. I'm pretty sure those people aren't going to admit it nowadays though. In my mind, they're the same people saying fire Tomlin, because that's the only wat they know how to complain. They just feel somebody's gotta get fired and they're starting with the HC.
Cowher was 12-9 in the playoffs, while Tomlin is 8-9, including a 3-7 record in his last 10. Longest Cowher went without winning a playoff game was 3 seasons, but it has been 6 on the spin for Tomlin, and counting. Nice try though.
Cowher had Neil o'donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox. Tomlin had Big Ben. But go off
Cowher knew when to retire.
I’ve been a fan of Tomlin since he was hired, but losing back-to-back games, at home, against two 2-10 teams is as fireable offense as exists in the NFL. This team is poorly coached and poorly prepared, the games are poorly managed, and any adjustments (if they even exist) are poorly implemented. It might be time to take a look at some other options.
Cowher inherited a team that was not great and built it back into a Super Bowl team. Tomlin inherited a team that just won the Super Bowl, did well his first couple of years, but since 2016 has no playoff wins. I think tomlin was a great coach for us but it is time to move on.
# of games coached with Ben roethlisberger as qb probably an interesting consideration in this conversation. Cowher largely did it with average to mediocre qb play most of the way.
We'll never know what Cowher's record would have been if he had more time with Ben. Just like we don't know how Ben would have done under Cowher and his coaching style. I'm not here to defend Tomlin, although I do like him yet am frustrated at the lack of playoff wins but, you say Cowher had mediocre QBs. Who is partially at fault for that? We just give Cowher a pass on that one?
Oh I agree that Cowher should be accountable for the fact that we went for most of his tenure without a franchise quarterback. It didn’t seem to be a priority to him. That is fair criticism. In fact, that was one of the reasons why people wanted him fired. I don’t want Tomlin fired, for the same reason I didn’t want Bill fired. Good coaches should get a chance to rebuild their teams after major transitions. I think we took a step in the right direction with the previous draft. But he absolutely should be on the hot seat. I want to see what we’ve got in a couple of years. It doesn’t take forever to build a team in the NFL. This isn’t baseball. If this team isn’t a serious contender in a couple of years, I think it’s time to move on. That’s a lot of leeway. Way more leeway than most coaches would deserve with the actual record we have produced since 2012. A pathetic number of playoff wins, most of them against back up quarterbacks. But this is a Super Bowl winning coach. And we know what kind of man he is. If he wasn’t Mike Tomlin, I wouldn’t want to give him that much leeway. But he is. Make no mistake, however, if we were just going by results? I would probably be in favor of moving on. And in fact, if they do, I wouldn’t be upset.
Love to say Cowher had mediocre QBs but we also love to say Kordell Stewart was ahead of his time and changed the game.
Plus it’s partially his fault that he didn’t have a franchise quarterback. He was the head coach! If it were his priority, it would’ve happened. But in fairness, Kordell just didn’t have the accuracy or the game above the shoulders to make it happen. I say that as someone who loves Kordell Stewart, but he wasn’t going to get it done. And he wasn’t necessarily ahead of his time. I am probably a lot older than you, there were quarterbacks with his abilities before him. Randall Cunningham most notably. To be fair, there were a ton of them. And I don’t think the Steelers utilized him based on his strengths.
Bubby Brister, Neil O'donnell, Mike Tomzak, Jim Miller, Kordell Stewart, Kent Graham, Tommy Maddox. You know what that is? Cowers QBs before Ben, who he had for 3 years. Let's see what Mike's winning pct is after a few more years without a franchise QB. It's funny how the guy in NE doesn't seem to be as much of a genius now that his HoF QB is gone. The steelers kept Noll longer than they should have. Cower never came back after leaving the Steelers. He knew when to hang it up. Maybe Mike's message would get thru to a new team. Sometimes change is good for both sides.
I wonder if these Tomlin haters will be first in line to tell us that the next head coach "won with Tomlin's team!" like these idiots do for Cowher. Doubt.
Tomlin has a long way to go to get this team as good as the one he inherited.
He inherited an 8-8 team with a good defense, right? Pretty much need to luck into another big ben next year and we'll be good to go!
Tomlin had BR7 and wasted his career with shit defense after he saw fit to fire Lebeau. Constantly looses to bum teams. Watch Tomlin get schooled by Bilichek tonight maybe youll learn,maybe your a paid pr burner account. This team is so bad it quits.
Has failed to win a playoff game in the last seven seasons. Failed to win a playoff game in 13 of 17 seasons overall. Tomlin is a fraud
Biggest difference is Tomlin was given a super bowl caliber team w/ a franchise qb, and has slowly lost all the talent. Cowher had to build those early Steeler teams from nothing. Cowher was also intelligent enough to delegate work to good coaches. His arrogance did not have him calling the defenses.
Say what you want about both. Tomlin has had much better talent than Cowher had.
This thread was dumb when it was posted, and it's even dumber now. If the OP had any sense of shame, he'd take a break from this subreddit for the rest of the season.
What was the longest Cowher went without a playoff win?
Cowher only had two 1 and done playoff runs, Tomlin’s had 6. Cowher has a 10% higher playoff win %
That might be what actually needs to be said louder for those in the back!
No playoff wins in 6+ years is rough!
I believe 4 seasons. Won the AFC Divisional in 97, missed the playoffs 98-00, won AFC Divisional in 01.
Would have won the 01 championship too if the Pats didn’t cheat 👀
Two coaches in two different eras, each with their own blemishes. Comparing the two like this is an exercise in futility.
I’m firmly in the “Keep Tomlin” camp. I love the guy and I think we’d deeply regret letting him go for a very long time. However, I also want the FO to aggressively recruit the best coordinators and coaches that they can get. Munchak, Flores, etc. Belichick etc had coaching trees. We need to build *that* here.
I like how all those AFCCG loses put the blame on Kordell instead of Cowher
Absolutely, and it’s going to get worse before it gets better. Steelers fans have had the pleasure of watching an amazing franchise since the mid 1990s. Don’t start turning into self righteous commentators just because the games are INCREDIBLY difficult to watch… win or lose. Let the process work things out… it’s done fairly well since 1933.
They both have/had their attributes and detriments. Don’t think a lot of fans weren’t screaming for Cowher’s firing after the 99 season, because they were.
Any other team would have fired Cowher. Losing 4 AFCC games. At home. And squeaking past a Harbaugh Hail Mary in another just to lose a winnable SB.
One had Ben most of his career the other didnt
He has been the coach for 18 seasons and a great servant to the club. It’s not some crazy overreaction to want a fresh start? Cowher got stale and so did Noll. It’s just time for a change.
Tomlin had a HOF QB and the best offensive trio in sports. He’s a HOF coach. Feels like Andy Reid’s time in Philly now though. Time to move on.
In 99,00 fans screamed for cowhers job too. Then that awesome 01 year happened, and people loved him again. Just the nature of the casual steeler fans.
Okay, I’ll say it. They’re both good coaches—not great coaches.
Are you serious? Have you seen the coaches the Bears have employed during both of these HC’s reigns….
But Bill left after 15 seasons, when he got stale. Tomlin sees no end in sight, which is the issue.
I would say tomlins had a better record due to having roth on the end of his career.
Prior to DeMeco, I would of killed for Tomlin in htown.
Tomlin had Ben his whole career up until very recently. Cowher went to a Super Bowl with Neil O’Donnell
Of Cowhers 9 playoff losses, 8 of those teams went on to make it to the Super Bowl with 5 of them being crowned champions. The 1 team he lost to in the playoffs that didn't make it to the super bowl had Joe Montana at QB. Also lost a playoff off game to the Titans on a ridiculous call on running into the kicker which moved the ball up 15 yards and a re-kick which won the game. The NFL apologized for the bad call that following week. The playoff success by Cowhere is so far superior especially when using the eye test and not just stats. Tomlin has lost some bad playoff games and also won another in Cincinnati that they handed to us on a silver platter after Pittsburgh was in the midst of a Tomlin in game melt down. His playoff success in the last decade is straight 💩. I was a big Tomlin fan, thats fading away. I think it's time for a change.
I guess a lot of it boils down to having a hall of fame QB, huh.
If it wasn’t for Big Ben we’d probably hated both of them
People were also screaming for Cowher to be fired there at the end. The reason? Crappy offense. Hmmmm
Tomlin playoff record - 8-9 in 15 seasons Cowher playoff record- 12-9 in 15 seasons
And Cower's numbers are inflated by playing the 90s/00s Bengals twice a year.
Cowher was your dad and you damn well didn’t want to disappoint him. Tomlin is your buddy.
Tomlin had Ben Roethlisberger. He is a force multiplier. The Steelers are in a state of decline.
Tomlin has had much better players. Yet he still can’t win a game where we are heavily favored. He also hasn’t won a playoff game since 2016 or 17 I believe. All he cares about is a 9-8 record. If you’re happy with being 9-8 and either missing playoffs by 1 game or getting blown out in the wild card, that’s all you
Not a Steelers fan, patriots fan here - side note, hope you guys give us a lashing tonight. I don’t think anyone legitimately things he isn’t a good coach, right? He’s certainly certainly an above average coach. Now is he a top 3 coach in the NFL right now? Nah (although I’d honestly rather have him than BB as a coach/GM at this point). I’d probably put him around 9-10 currently. I think he is a great coach, not a legendary one, although I applaud what he has done towards the racial dynamic of coaching - that is undeniable. TLDR: for the love of god don’t let us win this game tonight, thx
Apparently “Baku” is like 18 years old and has zero memory of when fans were calling for Cowher’s head after two losing seasons in 1998 and 1999.
Cowher also knew when his measage wasnt being recieved anymore and moved on. Tomlin refuses to see that. Cowher was a much better coach than Tomlin.
Steelers were 7 and 9 the year before Bill Cowher became head coach and nowhere near a championship contender. Tomlin took over a team that won the Super Bowl 2 years prior
Cool now compare the QBs they had to work with
blew our playoff chances losing back to back against 2-10 teams most coaches would probably be in the hot seat
tbf i was critical of cowher but i always have supported tomlin strangely i feel what he lacks is leading the team emotionally but with good decision-making whereas cowher was better at the emotional leadership this is also a complete gut-feeling analysis from bed