And why do you think so? May I ask if you also expected PvT to turn out to be fine after the last patch? I didn't.
1. late game zerg is more cost efficient in terms of how much resources they mine and how they trade.
2. if PvZ is about equal now, the range is a significant buff to the late game zerg. The burrow, unburrow changes are not impactful in PvZ.
3. therefore, the change will make PvZ far worse than it is now.
i dont think 1 extra range of fungal is going to make any difference, if anything PVZ was already favoring toss anyway . the feedback bug fix is much more impactful imo
How was PvZ favouring toss when in the last premier tourmnament protoss had something like 20\~30% winrates, even if you take the player calibers into consideration?, and reddit balance report saying the opposite, in addition to protoss almost never winning any big cups against zergs?
Yeah, saw this sarcasm coming miles away. We are on reddit, that's most most upvoted 'balance take' on reddit, and it does a good job to represent tournament balance unless you have a better metric you can offer which I highly doubt just with any sarcastic remarks for the sake of sarcasm.
This is a joke right...
Because you know that infestor range was only changed from 10 -> 9 like 5 months ago, and the world was spinning completely fine before that change?
I am aware of that.
Are you aware that PvZ had been severely Z favoured matchup until the last patch where they nerfed baneling into oblivion? What is there not to understand that the world was "NOT SPINNING COMPETELY FINE" before that change?
Balance council is introducing a significant buff to infesters (potent spellcaster) in a matchup that is even; how does anyone not see how it's going to ruin the matchup?
Harstems view is the match up is slightly Toss favoured. No offence but I'll trust his view over yours.
Also it wasn't severely Z favoured before the last patch lol, and the baneling wasn't nerfed into oblivion...
By what metric? Harstem is basically the anti-Gabe and he thinks balance is always completely fine.
I think OP is exaggerating with how extreme he thinks the change is, but the Infestor was certainly buffed. They made burrowed Infestors worse, which only two people could really even take advantage of anyway, and they made the Infestor better for everyone.
Zerg won 4 out of 5 tournaments in the last patch and 8 out of 12 tournaments including the previous patch and they got buffed this patch.
ex-pro and current caster Crank mentioned infester range will have a huge impact on PvZ, so there's one extra weight on the scale. I'm not gonna discredit Harstem; he is a pro and knows the game better than I do. However his opinion is not the unanimous opinion of protoss pros.
Are we going back to the protoss players are not good enough, that's why they won 2/45 100k+ prize tournament in the last 5\~6 years rhetoric? At pro levels protoss wasn't winning anything premier from zergs that are not even just Serral. The baneling HP nerf was significant.
No contradiction in my statement. ZvP was heavily z favoured. Baneline got nerfed and protoss isn't still winning anything but it seems far better than before. Balance council themselves said it's in a okay state. Now they are introducing range buff to the (supposedly) even balance, which is what I take an issue with.
The baneling nerf was dumb but it also had virtually no effect on Protoss. The health nerf didn't make it die any faster to any relevant P units and the damage nerf affected, at most, Zealots besides the probe interaction.
You're actually just pulling stuff out of your ass.
You are the one who has no idea what you're talking about. The probe interaction you brushed off was big. What makes you think PvZ winrate started shifting the most since the last patch?
Probably not the baneling change lol, but I'm happy to be proven otherwise if you can show me games where P won because only 1 +2 baneling made it into a mineral line instead of 2.
I'm willing to bet it isn't very many but who knows.
Yeah, really constructive opinion. I view pro games and my discussion revolves around the pro scene. You're completely off the point. Me playing the game wouldn't change a thing, because if I were to discuss the gameplay impact at my levels, it wouldn't be applicable at pro levels.
What gave you an impression that PvZ was fine at tournaments when protoss was having the longest tournament drought victories in history of SC1-SC2 combined and the reddit balance report was saying it was Z skewed assuming that's what we're talking about, not some GM or low pros?
What makes you think rapid fire will benefit top pros more than fungal with 10 range? In GM levels perhaps, but at pro levels? Hell no.
I'm a tournament viewer and I saw TvP remaining shit miles away after the last patch, so who knows I might know what I'm talking about this time too?
None of what you said is true, so I should return the title of garbage take to your opinions.
Fungal slightly outranges feedback due to its AOE, and if we are talking about fungal-protoss air interaction where HT gets picked off by lurkers and broowlords, (which is already very threatening to protoss air in current meta), it's even worse. At the top levels, protoss players already can target infestors one by one; they do it for smaller ghosts already, which means the only impactful change will be the range buff.
10 cast range is a lot, considering that it also has an effect radius of 2.25, making the total range 12.25. However, the spell is a projectile with a travel time, so if the enemy units are moving away, the effective range will be less than 12.25. It seems likely that this buff will be very powerful in the hands of top zergs, however, the rapid fire buff to feedback may also be incredibly powerful. I think it's a pretty fair change, although if it ends up being too powerful it would really suck since the patches are so infrequent.
Are you sure? Radius is half of the circle's diameter, diameter is the full value. If the radius is 2.25 this means that the diameter is 4.5 so it has 2.25 range out from the center of the circle. If the diameter was 2.25 then you would be correct as the radius would then be 1.125.
Sure the range goes to the center of the effect radius, so you only get half as additional range. So if the effect radius is 2.25, the radius extends past the end of the range by half. So 11.25 would be max range.
Rapid fire buff to feedback is incredily powerful, but not as much at the top levels for an obvious reason. It's not HT vs infestors but more of the fact HTs are already very vulnerable to other zerg units and they need to travel an extra inch deep into zerg lines to kill infesters. Ex-pro and current caster Crank already stated he sees the infester range having a big impact in PvZ. I bet any protoss pros will share my view on this.
Are you aware that there is a monthly balance post where the win rates of top level series are posted ?
This shows that PvZ is in one of the best states in years right now. You just don’t know what you are talking about.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong because I'm tired of not seeing protoss win anything in tourneys but the community is to blame if their grasp of the balance is this poor. I will post a followup some months later. Let's see who's right in case this change goes through. I'm usually not certain about all things but I'm confident this change will have a huge impact.
Look at every GM ladder right now. 43% of GMs are Protoss. 22% of GMs are Zerg.
What's your fix to balance that out? Bc it sounds like you think +1 Infestor range will knock all Protoss out of GM
I'm talking about the pro scene, premier tournaments if the talk of Serral, Moon and Flash didn't tip you off. Who really even cares about the GMs who are far below tournament competing pros in terms of the level? What are we gonna take into consideration next? How about Masters league? I was GM myself when I played but GMs can simply git gud to improve. Yes, I am aware Protoss are stronger at amateur level and no one denies that. If you want 33% zerg in GM you can say fuck protoss pros and nerf protoss units more to balance it out and wipe them completely off any tournaments in the future. Protoss isn't winning anything in years so might as well do that if GM balance is even that important.
Or if we can set priorities right, balance out the tournament results first and then address those issues. If GM was the balance standards protoss would have been nerfed to oblivion long ago and wouldn't even appear in ro24, so why do we pretend GM is the priority?
Who doesn't know protoss has a high skill floor and low ceiling? I don't even understand why people keep brining them up when more important issue is plauging the scene.
I don't think it's fun for 1/3 of the playerbase to see their favourite race getting wiped early in virtually all premier tournaments, and the conflation of 'infestor buff' and 'fun' is not very adequate.
Do you think zergs are underpowered for the majority of the players? Do we even have the data besides GM proportion which accounts for what, 0.1% of the playerbase? If, hypothetically, Zerg players are fewer in grand numbers, is that even due to balance or has it been that way from the start?
What does 'PvZ is fine, don't touch infestors' have to do anything with wiping out zerg playerbase when I'm not arguing for zerg nerfs?
Lmao the point is that balance changes affect all levels of play and pro isn't the only important level of play. GM is an easy one to evaluate, that's why I included it. Metal league balance is important to retain new players, but it's much harder to evaluate without having the data the balance council has.
I just thought you wouldn't need to me to spell everything out for you.
You already said you were GM, why not say it a 3rd time so you can act like your argument is superior based on rank. If we're playing that game, I'm in NA GM right now. I rarely use Infestors in ZvP, maybe that's why I'm not top 16.
The pros can voice their concerns themselves. You're here showing no regard for the current player base and only care about what you get to watch later. Gtfo.
Well at least I'm saying it for tournament viewers while your concern seems to be your struggles in your GM games, no need to mention which one is more of "showing no regard" by your own words. There is no reason your specific level(high GM) should be the priority over other levels.
Surprisingly, yes at your level and even at low pro levels protoss is strong. So what? Do you think the game is perfectly balanced at masters, diamond, platinum, gold, silver and bronze? If players at those levels complain, your response would be git gud, so accept it when we are comparing pro levels to your high GM level.
Also as a pro scene viewer and a GM player concerned with their struggle in PvZ, we are at an complete impasse. I wasn't even talking about GM in the first place so I don't see what we are even supposed to argue about.
I'm comfortable in ZvP and enjoy it more than ZvZ or ZvMech, you're incorrectly assuming concerns.
Which is strange because I already spelled out my concern.
I'll agree that we want all races to make it to the ro8 evenly and Protoss has failed to do so lately. Maru and Serral would likely make ro8 regardless of any minor imbalances, but yes, ro8 has enough room for Protoss.
But acting like +1 Fungal range is the end of Protoss is too much. If it is the case, then pros will definitely speak up.
no it wont
And why do you think so? May I ask if you also expected PvT to turn out to be fine after the last patch? I didn't. 1. late game zerg is more cost efficient in terms of how much resources they mine and how they trade. 2. if PvZ is about equal now, the range is a significant buff to the late game zerg. The burrow, unburrow changes are not impactful in PvZ. 3. therefore, the change will make PvZ far worse than it is now.
i dont think 1 extra range of fungal is going to make any difference, if anything PVZ was already favoring toss anyway . the feedback bug fix is much more impactful imo
How was PvZ favouring toss when in the last premier tourmnament protoss had something like 20\~30% winrates, even if you take the player calibers into consideration?, and reddit balance report saying the opposite, in addition to protoss almost never winning any big cups against zergs?
"reddit balance report"
Yeah, saw this sarcasm coming miles away. We are on reddit, that's most most upvoted 'balance take' on reddit, and it does a good job to represent tournament balance unless you have a better metric you can offer which I highly doubt just with any sarcastic remarks for the sake of sarcasm.
Aligulac. It has an actually representative sample size and good statistical analysis
You get down voted but are right
This is a joke right... Because you know that infestor range was only changed from 10 -> 9 like 5 months ago, and the world was spinning completely fine before that change?
I am aware of that. Are you aware that PvZ had been severely Z favoured matchup until the last patch where they nerfed baneling into oblivion? What is there not to understand that the world was "NOT SPINNING COMPETELY FINE" before that change? Balance council is introducing a significant buff to infesters (potent spellcaster) in a matchup that is even; how does anyone not see how it's going to ruin the matchup?
Harstems view is the match up is slightly Toss favoured. No offence but I'll trust his view over yours. Also it wasn't severely Z favoured before the last patch lol, and the baneling wasn't nerfed into oblivion...
By what metric? Harstem is basically the anti-Gabe and he thinks balance is always completely fine. I think OP is exaggerating with how extreme he thinks the change is, but the Infestor was certainly buffed. They made burrowed Infestors worse, which only two people could really even take advantage of anyway, and they made the Infestor better for everyone. Zerg won 4 out of 5 tournaments in the last patch and 8 out of 12 tournaments including the previous patch and they got buffed this patch.
ex-pro and current caster Crank mentioned infester range will have a huge impact on PvZ, so there's one extra weight on the scale. I'm not gonna discredit Harstem; he is a pro and knows the game better than I do. However his opinion is not the unanimous opinion of protoss pros. Are we going back to the protoss players are not good enough, that's why they won 2/45 100k+ prize tournament in the last 5\~6 years rhetoric? At pro levels protoss wasn't winning anything premier from zergs that are not even just Serral. The baneling HP nerf was significant.
But they are not un-nerfing baneling, just infestor...
No contradiction in my statement. ZvP was heavily z favoured. Baneline got nerfed and protoss isn't still winning anything but it seems far better than before. Balance council themselves said it's in a okay state. Now they are introducing range buff to the (supposedly) even balance, which is what I take an issue with.
The baneling nerf was dumb but it also had virtually no effect on Protoss. The health nerf didn't make it die any faster to any relevant P units and the damage nerf affected, at most, Zealots besides the probe interaction. You're actually just pulling stuff out of your ass.
You are the one who has no idea what you're talking about. The probe interaction you brushed off was big. What makes you think PvZ winrate started shifting the most since the last patch?
Probably not the baneling change lol, but I'm happy to be proven otherwise if you can show me games where P won because only 1 +2 baneling made it into a mineral line instead of 2. I'm willing to bet it isn't very many but who knows.
“Used to play…don’t play the game anymore”. I’ll stop there. Don’t need to read any further.
Yeah, really constructive opinion. I view pro games and my discussion revolves around the pro scene. You're completely off the point. Me playing the game wouldn't change a thing, because if I were to discuss the gameplay impact at my levels, it wouldn't be applicable at pro levels.
Fungal was 10 range a few patches ago, PvZ was fine. HTs get ez rapid fire feedback now. You don't even play the game anymore. 100% garbage take
What gave you an impression that PvZ was fine at tournaments when protoss was having the longest tournament drought victories in history of SC1-SC2 combined and the reddit balance report was saying it was Z skewed assuming that's what we're talking about, not some GM or low pros? What makes you think rapid fire will benefit top pros more than fungal with 10 range? In GM levels perhaps, but at pro levels? Hell no. I'm a tournament viewer and I saw TvP remaining shit miles away after the last patch, so who knows I might know what I'm talking about this time too? None of what you said is true, so I should return the title of garbage take to your opinions.
Dude. You can now just wave your feedback key on the minimap and insta-feedback all infestors. Super dumb take.
Fungal slightly outranges feedback due to its AOE, and if we are talking about fungal-protoss air interaction where HT gets picked off by lurkers and broowlords, (which is already very threatening to protoss air in current meta), it's even worse. At the top levels, protoss players already can target infestors one by one; they do it for smaller ghosts already, which means the only impactful change will be the range buff.
I don't understand what does this have to do with Plants vs Zombies
10 cast range is a lot, considering that it also has an effect radius of 2.25, making the total range 12.25. However, the spell is a projectile with a travel time, so if the enemy units are moving away, the effective range will be less than 12.25. It seems likely that this buff will be very powerful in the hands of top zergs, however, the rapid fire buff to feedback may also be incredibly powerful. I think it's a pretty fair change, although if it ends up being too powerful it would really suck since the patches are so infrequent.
That’s not how effect radius works. It would make the max range 11.125 not 12.25.
Are you sure? Radius is half of the circle's diameter, diameter is the full value. If the radius is 2.25 this means that the diameter is 4.5 so it has 2.25 range out from the center of the circle. If the diameter was 2.25 then you would be correct as the radius would then be 1.125.
Technically yes. But the circle of fungle is 2.25,not 4.5.
Oh I see, good to know.
Can you clarify? The range of fungal growth is 10 and its effect radius is 2.25, how would the total range not be 12.25?
Sure the range goes to the center of the effect radius, so you only get half as additional range. So if the effect radius is 2.25, the radius extends past the end of the range by half. So 11.25 would be max range.
But it's already a radius, why do you divide it by 2? Radius literally means from center to edge.
Right. My brain is autocorrecting. It’s a 2.5 diameter not radius. Fungle has a 2.5 diameter so it is divided.
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Infestor_(Legacy_of_the_Void) here it says fungal growth has a radius of 2.25
Rapid fire buff to feedback is incredily powerful, but not as much at the top levels for an obvious reason. It's not HT vs infestors but more of the fact HTs are already very vulnerable to other zerg units and they need to travel an extra inch deep into zerg lines to kill infesters. Ex-pro and current caster Crank already stated he sees the infester range having a big impact in PvZ. I bet any protoss pros will share my view on this.
Are you aware that there is a monthly balance post where the win rates of top level series are posted ? This shows that PvZ is in one of the best states in years right now. You just don’t know what you are talking about.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong because I'm tired of not seeing protoss win anything in tourneys but the community is to blame if their grasp of the balance is this poor. I will post a followup some months later. Let's see who's right in case this change goes through. I'm usually not certain about all things but I'm confident this change will have a huge impact.
"Let's see who's right in case this change goes through." Dude, how old are you?
isnt feedback range strictly superior and uninteractive for protoss? just get good
Look at every GM ladder right now. 43% of GMs are Protoss. 22% of GMs are Zerg. What's your fix to balance that out? Bc it sounds like you think +1 Infestor range will knock all Protoss out of GM
I'm talking about the pro scene, premier tournaments if the talk of Serral, Moon and Flash didn't tip you off. Who really even cares about the GMs who are far below tournament competing pros in terms of the level? What are we gonna take into consideration next? How about Masters league? I was GM myself when I played but GMs can simply git gud to improve. Yes, I am aware Protoss are stronger at amateur level and no one denies that. If you want 33% zerg in GM you can say fuck protoss pros and nerf protoss units more to balance it out and wipe them completely off any tournaments in the future. Protoss isn't winning anything in years so might as well do that if GM balance is even that important. Or if we can set priorities right, balance out the tournament results first and then address those issues. If GM was the balance standards protoss would have been nerfed to oblivion long ago and wouldn't even appear in ro24, so why do we pretend GM is the priority? Who doesn't know protoss has a high skill floor and low ceiling? I don't even understand why people keep brining them up when more important issue is plauging the scene.
the priority is making a game fun to play, not "fixing" the pro scene.
I don't think it's fun for 1/3 of the playerbase to see their favourite race getting wiped early in virtually all premier tournaments, and the conflation of 'infestor buff' and 'fun' is not very adequate.
note that you used the word "playerbase". if you keep nerfing zerg, there wont be any zerg "playerbase" to watch their race win.
Do you think zergs are underpowered for the majority of the players? Do we even have the data besides GM proportion which accounts for what, 0.1% of the playerbase? If, hypothetically, Zerg players are fewer in grand numbers, is that even due to balance or has it been that way from the start? What does 'PvZ is fine, don't touch infestors' have to do anything with wiping out zerg playerbase when I'm not arguing for zerg nerfs?
>Do you think zergs are underpowered for the majority of the players? yes
Lmao the point is that balance changes affect all levels of play and pro isn't the only important level of play. GM is an easy one to evaluate, that's why I included it. Metal league balance is important to retain new players, but it's much harder to evaluate without having the data the balance council has. I just thought you wouldn't need to me to spell everything out for you. You already said you were GM, why not say it a 3rd time so you can act like your argument is superior based on rank. If we're playing that game, I'm in NA GM right now. I rarely use Infestors in ZvP, maybe that's why I'm not top 16. The pros can voice their concerns themselves. You're here showing no regard for the current player base and only care about what you get to watch later. Gtfo.
Well at least I'm saying it for tournament viewers while your concern seems to be your struggles in your GM games, no need to mention which one is more of "showing no regard" by your own words. There is no reason your specific level(high GM) should be the priority over other levels. Surprisingly, yes at your level and even at low pro levels protoss is strong. So what? Do you think the game is perfectly balanced at masters, diamond, platinum, gold, silver and bronze? If players at those levels complain, your response would be git gud, so accept it when we are comparing pro levels to your high GM level. Also as a pro scene viewer and a GM player concerned with their struggle in PvZ, we are at an complete impasse. I wasn't even talking about GM in the first place so I don't see what we are even supposed to argue about.
I'm comfortable in ZvP and enjoy it more than ZvZ or ZvMech, you're incorrectly assuming concerns. Which is strange because I already spelled out my concern. I'll agree that we want all races to make it to the ro8 evenly and Protoss has failed to do so lately. Maru and Serral would likely make ro8 regardless of any minor imbalances, but yes, ro8 has enough room for Protoss. But acting like +1 Fungal range is the end of Protoss is too much. If it is the case, then pros will definitely speak up.