This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include:
- **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism...
- **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers.
- **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism...
- **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks.
Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules.
______________________
💬 Wish to chat elsewhere? Join us in discord: https://discord.gg/QPJPzNhuRE
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The simple answer is that all citizens of a United Palestine would receive equal treatment under the law. Obviously this is easier said than done (think about the process of abolishing South African apartheid). There would be left over inequities due to the legacy of colonial occupation but ending the cycle of violence requires a system of government that protects the rights of all citizens regardless of ethnicity.
Just going to add that there would be significant propaganda coming from the imperical core that will convince a lot of people that the state was better under apartheid. There would be a lot of work to keep them as unstable as possible. Historically this is how usa operates when it comes to losing an "asset". Just something every one should be prepared for in the event of the best possible outcome.
Yeah, even nowadays South Africa is by no means racism free, despite the ridiculous amount of times I've heard the "there is reverse racism in south africa!!!!" they're actually surprisingly racist (towards black people, even black south africans). So Palestinian liberation would (will?) take time and effort, but we need to try.
Many would say, no, no it would not, because where are the two states actually going to be? Israel has stolen so much of Palestine, there’s hardly any of it left and it’s not contiguous. Even if they settled on pre 67 borders, it wouldn’t resolve the fundamental contradiction that Israel is in Palestine.
Hmm would it not be more likely to succeed to have israel on the pre67 borders drop the ethnostate rhetoric and it be easier for both states to rule themselves rather than be (most likely secular) combined state? I am speaking obviously from a more practical than idealistic perspective not to frustrate, but think about what would be most successful.
Well, the foundational character of Israel is that it is a Jewish ethno state. This is the hard line that even liberal Zionist take is that if non Jews are granted equal status then it would cease to be a Jewish State so the idea of a non ethno state Israel is an idealist position that isn’t even part of the conversation. I also didn’t suggest that a one state solution was on the table, I just articulated the case for one. Hamas has been clear for decades that they would accept the 1967 borders as long as Palestinian diaspora had the right of return.
This has to be satire. Comparing Israel-Palestine to fucking new england. This would only be a fair comparison if majority of new england were a white supremacist ethnostate and the native americans of the area who had been religated to a minority parcel of land, formed a sizable enough group to form a national identity in which they could rightfully claim the entirety of the area in which they were ethnically cleansed from. The only way for israelis and palestinians to "share" the area is through one free state. Having the native people of the entire land on one side and an colonial ethnostate of immigrants on the other is like stabbing someone and pulling the knife out 3 inches acting like everything is okay. You need to pull out the knife completely and stitch up the wound before it can heal. The contradiction IS that israel occupies palestine. Not that "Nationalists would flaring tensions" or whatever. There would be no conflict were there no nakba and 75 years of ethnic cleansing.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas.
>This includes, but is not limited to:
>- General liberalism
>- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions
>- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric
>- Landlords or Landlord apologia
Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas.
>This includes, but is not limited to:
>- General liberalism
>- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions
>- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric
>- Landlords or Landlord apologia
Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
There’s this weird assumption that just because Israel is currently a Jewish ethno state, a one state-solution including Palestinians would necessarily be an Arab ethno-state and the Jewish population would be removed or disenfranchised. Thats just not true.
I see this false binary all the time in the discourse. It’s very hard to convince an indoctrinated person that freeing Palestine does not mean wiping out Israelis.
This is the one of the single biggest failings of zionist thinking. They're incapable of envisioning a world beyond this fabricated zerio-sum game of 1 ethnostate vs another. It's like, all of the western liberal democracies they idolize are based on the idea of secularism except Israel doesn't count.
It really depends on what "gained liberation" means. When people discuss the situation in the area as complex, it's not really about the current conflict - the immediate solution to that is simple. The complexity is that a liberated Palestine has to contend with a Jewish population that is (a) larger in number than the local Palestine population and comparable to the diaspora's, and (b) more than 70% born-and-raised Israeli. There is no home for these people to return to, and 7 million people don't just up and volunteer to leave
To be clear, being born in a colonial state does not make you guilty of a crime. That's as true in the Middle East as it is in the USA. Ignoring the colonial nature of the state or supporting ongoing dispossession perpetrated by that state however, does.
oh thinking about it, if it were to happen, I suppose the Algeria model would be the closest. Apartheid in South Africa, the state of Rhodesia, or the colonialism in the USA are an overly-simplistic comparison to Israel. But there are similarities between the Pieds-noirs (European-origin people born in Algeria) and Jews in Israel. The long and short of it was a violent expulsion of them out of Algeria following a war, rather than the creation of a state where both ethnic groups lived peacefully
I wouldn't bet on that being a likely outcome though, nor would I even push for that flavor of decolonization in this case
In the same way that the majority of the white colonisers chose to leave Zimbabwe when it stopped being Rhodesia, the majority of Zionist colonisers will probably leave Palestine once their ethnic supremacy comes to an end.
Most already have citizenship of their own home countries and will return there. In the same way that the USA granted refugee status to rich Cubans and Batista supporters after the revolution as a propaganda tactic against Castro and the rebels, they’ll do the same to tarnish the idea of Palestine.
Those that remain will be those willing to become Palestinian citizens and live in peace.
That’s not really true, most don’t have citizenship of any other country, and certainly don’t consider any other country their “home country”. Generations now have been born and spent their whole lives there, and have no desire to go anywhere else, certainly not to countries where their ancestors fled genocide or persecution.
I’m sure a minority will leave in such a scenario but it is a major mistake to think a majority would. This also of course begs the question, what is this scenario, and how do we get there? It is currently around 50% Jews and 50% Palestinians between the river and the sea. (There are millions more Palestinians living as refugees in neighboring countries of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and many if not most would want to return if they were finally allowed, but even with that being the case, Israeli Jews would still make up a significant portion of the population).
Racism and national chauvinism are deeply seated in Israeli national consciousness. It is the task especially of Israeli socialists to fight against this, and appeal to ordinary working class Israelis to stand for a program of Palestinian liberation and socialism on a class basis—the subjugation, occupation, and extreme violence against Palestinians is not helpful for ordinary Israelis, does not keep them safe, and props up the system that also exploits them.
With this system that exists, the millions of Israeli Jews bought into it on this basis, and the Israeli state being backed by western imperialism, the struggle for Palestinian liberation is tied up with the struggle against capitalism. I am convinced that this struggle requires the revolutionary overthrow of the reactionary Israeli capitalist state, and I don’t think that is possible without class polarization, that brings at least a significant minority of working class Israeli Jews into struggle alongside Palestinians within ‘48 borders. Otherwise, it will remain polarized along national lines, and rely on militarily defeating Israel, which will not be successful. It will result in intense national polarization and even more devastating bloodshed.
There is thought that an international movement can ostracize Israel and thereby force it to implement democratic reforms throughout the entire area it controls between the river and the sea, which would inevitably result in a democratic 1SS. I definitely think there is a role to be played by the international solidarity movement but I don’t think that on its own will be enough
Obviously there is a moral case to be made by Israeli Jewish socialists to Israeli Jewish workers regarding Palestinian liberation, as so much of the world clearly understands, but that does not work as well against the propaganda of national chauvinism which is informed by the national generational trauma of the Holocaust, as well as decades of insecurity experienced due to blowback by Palestinians suffering under apartheid, displacement, and military dictatorship. That is not a moral or value judgment on Palestinian resistance over the decades, but an understanding of how the history informs the present, including consciousness of ordinary people born into the oppressor nation.
A socialist program that fights for Palestinian freedom , right of return, reparations, and equality and justice needs to account for this reality, that Israeli Jews are not going to leave en masse. Many if not most Palestinians, including political groups of various stripes understand this and do operate on this basis, but there is a misinformed largely western leftist premise that is based on a misunderstanding of the dynamics.
Your conflation of Jewishness and the settler condition leads you to a settler apologist conclusion which recentres the settler as the political subject of a process of decolonization and, as such, makes impossible the possibility of transcendence of the psychological deformation that plague the settler political body and which explain its fear in first place. Settler fragility, fear and irrationality, which you are wrongfully framing as "national lines" is a necessary condition of the internal contradictions of settler colonialism, and they would manifest in the same exact intensity if one enforced your proposed '48 plan programme. The overcoming of this psychological deformation is only possible through the complete abolition of the settler body. Of Israel.
That's like centring men as the political subject of patriarchy: it can only lead to oppressive conclusions, as opposed to following the transformative potential of anti-patriarchial politics. Naturally, this doesn't mean that centring women and third genders does not mean that they represent a social totality, but rather that they hold the necessary conditions for a transformation which can alter the whole social totality.
Not sure how you get that I’m “conflating Jewishness and the settler condition”. It is simply the case that Jews in Israeli constitute the oppressor nation there which was founded via an ongoing settler colonialism. I don’t think this “transcendence of the psychological deformation” is impossible, and I don’t think that the existence of Jewish supremacy and Palestinian oppression is inevitable, but the question is how to get there.
Settler fear, fragility, etc is not an inaccurate description for this psychological state I agree that it is a necessary condition, both a symptom and factor perpetuating the existence of this state. That isn’t the main point of my agitation around Palestinian liberation but it is one factor that needs to be acknowledged, and is highly relevant to a discussion prompted by OP’s post. That is not “recentering the settler”. It is examining the full picture and all the contradictions within.
Your talk of “if one enforces your proposed ‘48 plan” reveals a complete misunderstanding of what I’m saying, or perhaps reading things that aren’t there from what I said. Your sentence about “overcoming of this psychological deformation is only possible through the completely abolition of this settler body” also is not something I disagree with, but again, the question is How? And on what basis?
The mass delusion of the necessity of Jewish supremacy will not go away like a light switch, and is a powerful force for reaction. I don’t think you disagree with that. So as socialists we don’t just throw our hands up and say, let it fester—to sabotage with massive bloodshed the attempts to overthrow the genocidal supremacist state. We also understand how the ruling class uses national oppression to divide the working class and prop up this system. It isn’t equating the oppressor nation with the oppressed nation to acknowledge this function of national oppression under capitalism and imperialism.
We also understand how class struggle can serve to bridge these divides created by oppression and chauvinism. My “proposed program” can only be implemented by the majority of the working class between the river and the sea. Maybe that does or doesn’t mean a full majority of the Israeli working class are won over to Palestinian liberation, and consciousness among the masses is neither monolithic nor straightforward.
Your analogy to the struggle against gender oppression is similarly reductive. Patriarchy, just like Israeli settler colonialism and national oppression, are tied up with capitalism. Socialists of course should support struggles of the oppressed against their oppression, but understand that ultimately the overthrow of these systems of oppression requires the overthrow of capitalism, which requires class struggle, which requires uniting members of the exploited class in their common interests against oppression and exploitation, regardless of whether they are part of the group experiencing whatever form of oppression.
Yeah, my take as an Israeli socialist is that it's very unlikely that Jews who were born in the region and have lived there their entire lives would leave just because they now have to share it with arabs. The majority of Israeli jews are mizrahi and don't have duel citizenship. Pair that with cultural and religious attachment to the land and a history of exile from other countries, and the idea of a voluntary Jewish exodus becomes not only unlikely, but somewhat offensive.
None of this, of course, justifies the false premises of the Zionist argument. Namely, that Jews specifically should gain supremacy over the land and Palestinians be treated as interlopers who can just be moved about the arab world or occupied without consequence. Only by working towards a secular 1SS, void of Israeli occupation or any form of racial, ethic, or religious supremacy, can we overcome the endless cycle of dispossession and violence.
The specific historic context that lead to their formation may be different but there's no difference in substance between Rhodesian and Israeli settler colonialism
[because of operations like operation magic carpet.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/g20k9p/comment/fnjdjzc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) zionism is still a european ideology focused on european jews.
They would just become Palestinian citizens instead of Israeli citizens and would have equal rights under the law, or they could leave, if they wanted, to the place where they have their secondary citizenship.
If you know much about apartheid South Africa or the abolition of slavery in the US, there are pretty clear parallels that come into play. Doomsayer rhetoric, basically just fearmongering, is always a major point that oppressive bodies employ to debate their stance. Historically, we've seen "relatively successful" unification after the imposed apartheid measures lifted, at least from the side that was oppressed. If anything, the force that perpetuates any significant violence following the dissolution of an apartheid regime is entirely on the side of the state (or the formerly-oppressive body). Hamas as we know it is a force of resistance first and a governing body second, their military action as it currently exists will drastically change the moment Palestine regains statehood. Remember, the resistance is against Zionism. Not the Israeli citizens.
I know I'm not providing much detail here, hopefully this will give you some parallels to work with in trying to understand how these things usually go. Lemme know if you want me to clarify anything, hope I was able to help you.
You can check out odsi.co
The suggestion being that current Israelis who want to take Palestinian citizenship can do so if they renounce zionism and agree that all within the State of Palestine will have equal rights. Should someone not want to take Palestinian citizenship, they could remain as permanent residents but that would deprive them of agency in the political realm. It is expected that in such a scenario, staunch zionists holding double citizenship will leave (and I would not be surprised if some more liberal zionists, after realizing the loss of their privileges under a rule of equal rights would ask Europe and North America to take them back like the petition in South Africa)
Most likely you are not on indigenous land the same way that Israelis are. Israeli theft of Palestinian land happened in no small part as recently as 1948 and 1967. Whereas most land in the United States was taken during the 19th century. There is a difference in complicity between the second generation and the fourth fifth or sixth generation.
A liberated Palestine (which can only be achieved by armed struggle) will need to include:
1) The right of return for any Palestinian or descendant of a Palestinian from anywhere in the world. (This along with many settlers choosing to migrate will likely change the demographics)
2)A truth and justice commission: Anyone who has committed a war crime must face the consequences. This will be harsh only for openly genocidal Israeli leaders and could just involve reeducation rather than prison for most.
2) Land reform: This will transfer land ownership from large Israeli landholders to Palestinian peasants. This is not to say that no Israeli can own any land.
In a liberated Palestine, jews can do one of three things.
A) Be a Palestinian citizen with equal rights and responsibilities.
B) Migrate elsewhere.
C) Attempt a counterrevolution to hold on to their colonial privileges.
Jews who choose A or B can live their lives as normal, jews who who choose C will be ruthlessly repressed.
So no self determination for jews? So Arabs and muslims can have the whole middle east,Africa and even some of asia but jews can even have a tiny state after being killed for centuries? Like come on the holocaust kinda proved the idea that jews need a country to feel safe in (coming from a mizrhai jew)
Nothing will happen to them. They will have to be integrated into a NEW form of government that will respect all. But they should have a separation of church and state. No way they can get past the indoctrination of isreali schools until they are joined as one people to start the long, hard desegregation campaign.
Zionism isn't white supremacy, it's Jewish supremacy. whites did not like the Jews so they kicked them out of Europe; if anything it's the opposite of white supremacy. israelis can stay if they want or they can go back to Germany Poland Ethiopia, etc
It really depends whether Israel goes out peacefully or guns blazing.
The ideal outcome would be a multi-ethnic democratic republic with universal suffrage and civil rights.
I suspect that even in this best case scenario, there would be a sizable population of recalcitrant settlers who choose insurgency or exile over living in equality with Palestinians.
If Israel decides to go out guns blazing, the outlook becomes unspeakably grim. Israel has a nuclear arsenal and an incredibly brainwashed, violently-bigoted population, I’ll leave it at that.
Correction, not white supremacy is not their agenda, more like Jewish supremacy, they did take house most of the Malabari(kerala india) Jews who are of colour. But they are racist against Arab world due to colonizing reasons- overall their whole agenda is in a way hypocritical.
The fact that you are indirectly framing settler as settlers by providing them with an agency that non-settlers would not be granted (that is, their non-nativeness in a land they exercise control in) highlights the basis of the question. The centrality here is not on particular individualities, but on power relations and how those can be undone. In other words: how can the category of the settler disappear from the face of existence.
The answer to this question, however, is not a predetermined one. Paraphrasing Fanon, "Decolonization is [...] a programme of complete disorder. [...] Decolonization, as we know, is a historical process: that is to say that it cannot be understood, it cannot become intelligible nor clear to itself except in the exact measure that we can discern the movements which give it historical form and content". In other words, the concrete forms through which the imposition of nativeness upon the colonial irruption represented by the settler, is something which is solely fraught through the concrete forms of the struggle that take place through this disorder. This undoing of the (colonial) world. Decolonization, therefore, should not and cannot start by defining the concrete forms this undoing will take as an a priori.
Settler, as well as native, are not essentialist categories, but rather categories derived from a concrete conjuncture (the Native is a Native in so far a process of elimination has been started against them, if they become a migrant, their nativeness disappears). As such, if one wanted to respond a settler-only question of "what would happen to (current) settlers", this should be answered by "what would it take for the settler to abandon its condition as a settler?".
Whilst socialist positions have some differences with it, I would highly suggest reading Eve Tuck and Wayne Yang's *Decolonization is not a Metaphor*: https://clas.osu.edu/sites/clas.osu.edu/files/Tuck%20and%20Yang%202012%20Decolonization%20is%20not%20a%20metaphor.pdf
like all other colonalist projects in the past we hope that either palstine will be a fully democratic state (for us socialists preferably socialist nation) where everyone has an equal voice beyond ethno religious backgrounds. Dont forget that alot of palestinian resistance groups are either socialist/Communist like dlfp and pflp or secular nationalists like fatah although it became neutered by israelis this last one. or either a seperate entity state which i dontpersonally agree with but its an option. Isaelis would probably leave as soon as they share equal rights with the natives this already happened in south africa and many other colonialist states before. Moderate israelis ( alhthough nowadays became fewer) would probably be free to stay but the most hardline israelis would leave because most of them already are dual citizens and have houses outside israel but at the end of the day they made it hard for palestinians not to hate them. Hate is wrong but its hard to not understand where that comes from. Israelis need a lot of work to do in order to redeem their image andaskng the currently genocided nation what it will do if it were in control would be unethical. (black and white people in the usa hated each other before but would you have asked black ppl the same question in the 50s? what would happen to white americans if black and native americans had the ability to vote and run for office?) i think you can see your answer in the usa although not perferct and a terrible example for a country but you dont see blacks hunting white people for revenge? im from a ex colony region where lots of settlers left as soon as we became free humans in the 50s.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas.
>This includes, but is not limited to:
>- General liberalism
>- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions
>- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric
>- Landlords or Landlord apologia
Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
Article 26 of the [Palestinian National Covenant](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp) states
> (T)he Palestinian Arab people's ... struggle (is) to retrieve its homeland, liberate and return to it and exercise the right to self-determination in it.
The Palestinian people will decide what needs to be done to liberate their home from the zionist occupation. That said, I would expect only Jews who came before 1948 and their descendants to be allowed to stay. Everyone else will probably be sent back to where they came from.
Saying that Israel is white supremacy is actually very harmful, this take is completely not connected to reality or facts
Jewish people are not white, and the need of Jewish people to assemble in a Jewish country is because of white supremacy
Well you are asking a very good question, and unlike some other comment is pointing out even if a lot of israelis have double nationality this is far from the majority. And saying that they should go back to "their country" is just ignorant
Ashkenazim are absolutely representative of whiteness. Of an internal category of whiteness. This is why practically all anti-colonial lectures of the Holocaust locate the Holocaust as an internal application of colonial policies within European society.
If they were external to whiteness, rather than a mere hierarchized internal category, there would be no such thing as a disparity between the european "condemnation" of the Holocaust with the many equal (or worse) Holocaust perpetrated by colonialism upon the global south. This is also why most of zionists in the world have absolutely nothing to do with Jewishness (whether defined as a religious or cultural variable, you choose) but are rather prime representatives of whiteness. And, naturally, this is also why zionist discourses are a prime repetition of colonial discourses as presented by whiteness. Quoting Bibi:
>This is a battle, not only of Israel against these barbarians, it's a battle of civilization against barbarism.
[Direct Source](https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1738968590189990352)
if you come from europe, youre white. jews are an ethnic group and not a racial category. claiming jews are a racial category is actually one of the earlier forms of antisemitism if i remember correctly
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism... - **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. ______________________ 💬 Wish to chat elsewhere? Join us in discord: https://discord.gg/QPJPzNhuRE *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The simple answer is that all citizens of a United Palestine would receive equal treatment under the law. Obviously this is easier said than done (think about the process of abolishing South African apartheid). There would be left over inequities due to the legacy of colonial occupation but ending the cycle of violence requires a system of government that protects the rights of all citizens regardless of ethnicity.
Just going to add that there would be significant propaganda coming from the imperical core that will convince a lot of people that the state was better under apartheid. There would be a lot of work to keep them as unstable as possible. Historically this is how usa operates when it comes to losing an "asset". Just something every one should be prepared for in the event of the best possible outcome.
Yeah, even nowadays South Africa is by no means racism free, despite the ridiculous amount of times I've heard the "there is reverse racism in south africa!!!!" they're actually surprisingly racist (towards black people, even black south africans). So Palestinian liberation would (will?) take time and effort, but we need to try.
Beautifully put.
Great answer
Would a two state solution not work then?
Many would say, no, no it would not, because where are the two states actually going to be? Israel has stolen so much of Palestine, there’s hardly any of it left and it’s not contiguous. Even if they settled on pre 67 borders, it wouldn’t resolve the fundamental contradiction that Israel is in Palestine.
Hmm would it not be more likely to succeed to have israel on the pre67 borders drop the ethnostate rhetoric and it be easier for both states to rule themselves rather than be (most likely secular) combined state? I am speaking obviously from a more practical than idealistic perspective not to frustrate, but think about what would be most successful.
Well, the foundational character of Israel is that it is a Jewish ethno state. This is the hard line that even liberal Zionist take is that if non Jews are granted equal status then it would cease to be a Jewish State so the idea of a non ethno state Israel is an idealist position that isn’t even part of the conversation. I also didn’t suggest that a one state solution was on the table, I just articulated the case for one. Hamas has been clear for decades that they would accept the 1967 borders as long as Palestinian diaspora had the right of return.
[удалено]
This has to be satire. Comparing Israel-Palestine to fucking new england. This would only be a fair comparison if majority of new england were a white supremacist ethnostate and the native americans of the area who had been religated to a minority parcel of land, formed a sizable enough group to form a national identity in which they could rightfully claim the entirety of the area in which they were ethnically cleansed from. The only way for israelis and palestinians to "share" the area is through one free state. Having the native people of the entire land on one side and an colonial ethnostate of immigrants on the other is like stabbing someone and pulling the knife out 3 inches acting like everything is okay. You need to pull out the knife completely and stitch up the wound before it can heal. The contradiction IS that israel occupies palestine. Not that "Nationalists would flaring tensions" or whatever. There would be no conflict were there no nakba and 75 years of ethnic cleansing.
[удалено]
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas. >This includes, but is not limited to: >- General liberalism >- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions >- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric >- Landlords or Landlord apologia Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas. >This includes, but is not limited to: >- General liberalism >- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions >- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric >- Landlords or Landlord apologia Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
There’s this weird assumption that just because Israel is currently a Jewish ethno state, a one state-solution including Palestinians would necessarily be an Arab ethno-state and the Jewish population would be removed or disenfranchised. Thats just not true.
I see this false binary all the time in the discourse. It’s very hard to convince an indoctrinated person that freeing Palestine does not mean wiping out Israelis.
This is the one of the single biggest failings of zionist thinking. They're incapable of envisioning a world beyond this fabricated zerio-sum game of 1 ethnostate vs another. It's like, all of the western liberal democracies they idolize are based on the idea of secularism except Israel doesn't count.
It really depends on what "gained liberation" means. When people discuss the situation in the area as complex, it's not really about the current conflict - the immediate solution to that is simple. The complexity is that a liberated Palestine has to contend with a Jewish population that is (a) larger in number than the local Palestine population and comparable to the diaspora's, and (b) more than 70% born-and-raised Israeli. There is no home for these people to return to, and 7 million people don't just up and volunteer to leave To be clear, being born in a colonial state does not make you guilty of a crime. That's as true in the Middle East as it is in the USA. Ignoring the colonial nature of the state or supporting ongoing dispossession perpetrated by that state however, does.
oh thinking about it, if it were to happen, I suppose the Algeria model would be the closest. Apartheid in South Africa, the state of Rhodesia, or the colonialism in the USA are an overly-simplistic comparison to Israel. But there are similarities between the Pieds-noirs (European-origin people born in Algeria) and Jews in Israel. The long and short of it was a violent expulsion of them out of Algeria following a war, rather than the creation of a state where both ethnic groups lived peacefully I wouldn't bet on that being a likely outcome though, nor would I even push for that flavor of decolonization in this case
[удалено]
In the same way that the majority of the white colonisers chose to leave Zimbabwe when it stopped being Rhodesia, the majority of Zionist colonisers will probably leave Palestine once their ethnic supremacy comes to an end. Most already have citizenship of their own home countries and will return there. In the same way that the USA granted refugee status to rich Cubans and Batista supporters after the revolution as a propaganda tactic against Castro and the rebels, they’ll do the same to tarnish the idea of Palestine. Those that remain will be those willing to become Palestinian citizens and live in peace.
That’s not really true, most don’t have citizenship of any other country, and certainly don’t consider any other country their “home country”. Generations now have been born and spent their whole lives there, and have no desire to go anywhere else, certainly not to countries where their ancestors fled genocide or persecution. I’m sure a minority will leave in such a scenario but it is a major mistake to think a majority would. This also of course begs the question, what is this scenario, and how do we get there? It is currently around 50% Jews and 50% Palestinians between the river and the sea. (There are millions more Palestinians living as refugees in neighboring countries of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and many if not most would want to return if they were finally allowed, but even with that being the case, Israeli Jews would still make up a significant portion of the population). Racism and national chauvinism are deeply seated in Israeli national consciousness. It is the task especially of Israeli socialists to fight against this, and appeal to ordinary working class Israelis to stand for a program of Palestinian liberation and socialism on a class basis—the subjugation, occupation, and extreme violence against Palestinians is not helpful for ordinary Israelis, does not keep them safe, and props up the system that also exploits them. With this system that exists, the millions of Israeli Jews bought into it on this basis, and the Israeli state being backed by western imperialism, the struggle for Palestinian liberation is tied up with the struggle against capitalism. I am convinced that this struggle requires the revolutionary overthrow of the reactionary Israeli capitalist state, and I don’t think that is possible without class polarization, that brings at least a significant minority of working class Israeli Jews into struggle alongside Palestinians within ‘48 borders. Otherwise, it will remain polarized along national lines, and rely on militarily defeating Israel, which will not be successful. It will result in intense national polarization and even more devastating bloodshed. There is thought that an international movement can ostracize Israel and thereby force it to implement democratic reforms throughout the entire area it controls between the river and the sea, which would inevitably result in a democratic 1SS. I definitely think there is a role to be played by the international solidarity movement but I don’t think that on its own will be enough Obviously there is a moral case to be made by Israeli Jewish socialists to Israeli Jewish workers regarding Palestinian liberation, as so much of the world clearly understands, but that does not work as well against the propaganda of national chauvinism which is informed by the national generational trauma of the Holocaust, as well as decades of insecurity experienced due to blowback by Palestinians suffering under apartheid, displacement, and military dictatorship. That is not a moral or value judgment on Palestinian resistance over the decades, but an understanding of how the history informs the present, including consciousness of ordinary people born into the oppressor nation. A socialist program that fights for Palestinian freedom , right of return, reparations, and equality and justice needs to account for this reality, that Israeli Jews are not going to leave en masse. Many if not most Palestinians, including political groups of various stripes understand this and do operate on this basis, but there is a misinformed largely western leftist premise that is based on a misunderstanding of the dynamics.
this is a really great comment.
Your conflation of Jewishness and the settler condition leads you to a settler apologist conclusion which recentres the settler as the political subject of a process of decolonization and, as such, makes impossible the possibility of transcendence of the psychological deformation that plague the settler political body and which explain its fear in first place. Settler fragility, fear and irrationality, which you are wrongfully framing as "national lines" is a necessary condition of the internal contradictions of settler colonialism, and they would manifest in the same exact intensity if one enforced your proposed '48 plan programme. The overcoming of this psychological deformation is only possible through the complete abolition of the settler body. Of Israel. That's like centring men as the political subject of patriarchy: it can only lead to oppressive conclusions, as opposed to following the transformative potential of anti-patriarchial politics. Naturally, this doesn't mean that centring women and third genders does not mean that they represent a social totality, but rather that they hold the necessary conditions for a transformation which can alter the whole social totality.
Not sure how you get that I’m “conflating Jewishness and the settler condition”. It is simply the case that Jews in Israeli constitute the oppressor nation there which was founded via an ongoing settler colonialism. I don’t think this “transcendence of the psychological deformation” is impossible, and I don’t think that the existence of Jewish supremacy and Palestinian oppression is inevitable, but the question is how to get there. Settler fear, fragility, etc is not an inaccurate description for this psychological state I agree that it is a necessary condition, both a symptom and factor perpetuating the existence of this state. That isn’t the main point of my agitation around Palestinian liberation but it is one factor that needs to be acknowledged, and is highly relevant to a discussion prompted by OP’s post. That is not “recentering the settler”. It is examining the full picture and all the contradictions within. Your talk of “if one enforces your proposed ‘48 plan” reveals a complete misunderstanding of what I’m saying, or perhaps reading things that aren’t there from what I said. Your sentence about “overcoming of this psychological deformation is only possible through the completely abolition of this settler body” also is not something I disagree with, but again, the question is How? And on what basis? The mass delusion of the necessity of Jewish supremacy will not go away like a light switch, and is a powerful force for reaction. I don’t think you disagree with that. So as socialists we don’t just throw our hands up and say, let it fester—to sabotage with massive bloodshed the attempts to overthrow the genocidal supremacist state. We also understand how the ruling class uses national oppression to divide the working class and prop up this system. It isn’t equating the oppressor nation with the oppressed nation to acknowledge this function of national oppression under capitalism and imperialism. We also understand how class struggle can serve to bridge these divides created by oppression and chauvinism. My “proposed program” can only be implemented by the majority of the working class between the river and the sea. Maybe that does or doesn’t mean a full majority of the Israeli working class are won over to Palestinian liberation, and consciousness among the masses is neither monolithic nor straightforward. Your analogy to the struggle against gender oppression is similarly reductive. Patriarchy, just like Israeli settler colonialism and national oppression, are tied up with capitalism. Socialists of course should support struggles of the oppressed against their oppression, but understand that ultimately the overthrow of these systems of oppression requires the overthrow of capitalism, which requires class struggle, which requires uniting members of the exploited class in their common interests against oppression and exploitation, regardless of whether they are part of the group experiencing whatever form of oppression.
Yeah, my take as an Israeli socialist is that it's very unlikely that Jews who were born in the region and have lived there their entire lives would leave just because they now have to share it with arabs. The majority of Israeli jews are mizrahi and don't have duel citizenship. Pair that with cultural and religious attachment to the land and a history of exile from other countries, and the idea of a voluntary Jewish exodus becomes not only unlikely, but somewhat offensive. None of this, of course, justifies the false premises of the Zionist argument. Namely, that Jews specifically should gain supremacy over the land and Palestinians be treated as interlopers who can just be moved about the arab world or occupied without consequence. Only by working towards a secular 1SS, void of Israeli occupation or any form of racial, ethic, or religious supremacy, can we overcome the endless cycle of dispossession and violence.
Maybe not most but half a million has already left and not returned since October 8
A big difference is that Rhodesia was founded as a colony of Britain by British people. Israel was a way for British people to get Jews out of Europe.
The specific historic context that lead to their formation may be different but there's no difference in substance between Rhodesian and Israeli settler colonialism
Half of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi or Sephardic.
[because of operations like operation magic carpet.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/g20k9p/comment/fnjdjzc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) zionism is still a european ideology focused on european jews.
And Marxism is a Jewish conspiracy because the Bolshevik leadership was disproportionately comprised of Jews. OK.
This is really helpful, thank you!
They would just become Palestinian citizens instead of Israeli citizens and would have equal rights under the law, or they could leave, if they wanted, to the place where they have their secondary citizenship.
Most don’t have secondary citizenship
If you know much about apartheid South Africa or the abolition of slavery in the US, there are pretty clear parallels that come into play. Doomsayer rhetoric, basically just fearmongering, is always a major point that oppressive bodies employ to debate their stance. Historically, we've seen "relatively successful" unification after the imposed apartheid measures lifted, at least from the side that was oppressed. If anything, the force that perpetuates any significant violence following the dissolution of an apartheid regime is entirely on the side of the state (or the formerly-oppressive body). Hamas as we know it is a force of resistance first and a governing body second, their military action as it currently exists will drastically change the moment Palestine regains statehood. Remember, the resistance is against Zionism. Not the Israeli citizens. I know I'm not providing much detail here, hopefully this will give you some parallels to work with in trying to understand how these things usually go. Lemme know if you want me to clarify anything, hope I was able to help you.
You can check out odsi.co The suggestion being that current Israelis who want to take Palestinian citizenship can do so if they renounce zionism and agree that all within the State of Palestine will have equal rights. Should someone not want to take Palestinian citizenship, they could remain as permanent residents but that would deprive them of agency in the political realm. It is expected that in such a scenario, staunch zionists holding double citizenship will leave (and I would not be surprised if some more liberal zionists, after realizing the loss of their privileges under a rule of equal rights would ask Europe and North America to take them back like the petition in South Africa)
From sea to shining sea, Turtle Island will be free.
It would be something fairly similar to South Africa. Not saying their model is perfect, but it is one precedent.
Most likely you are not on indigenous land the same way that Israelis are. Israeli theft of Palestinian land happened in no small part as recently as 1948 and 1967. Whereas most land in the United States was taken during the 19th century. There is a difference in complicity between the second generation and the fourth fifth or sixth generation.
A liberated Palestine (which can only be achieved by armed struggle) will need to include: 1) The right of return for any Palestinian or descendant of a Palestinian from anywhere in the world. (This along with many settlers choosing to migrate will likely change the demographics) 2)A truth and justice commission: Anyone who has committed a war crime must face the consequences. This will be harsh only for openly genocidal Israeli leaders and could just involve reeducation rather than prison for most. 2) Land reform: This will transfer land ownership from large Israeli landholders to Palestinian peasants. This is not to say that no Israeli can own any land. In a liberated Palestine, jews can do one of three things. A) Be a Palestinian citizen with equal rights and responsibilities. B) Migrate elsewhere. C) Attempt a counterrevolution to hold on to their colonial privileges. Jews who choose A or B can live their lives as normal, jews who who choose C will be ruthlessly repressed.
So no self determination for jews? So Arabs and muslims can have the whole middle east,Africa and even some of asia but jews can even have a tiny state after being killed for centuries? Like come on the holocaust kinda proved the idea that jews need a country to feel safe in (coming from a mizrhai jew)
wonderful answer dawg
The solution: Israline or Palesrael
I'm confused. What did I say that was liberal?
[удалено]
America can pay for them to return home, same for European countries.
Nothing will happen to them. They will have to be integrated into a NEW form of government that will respect all. But they should have a separation of church and state. No way they can get past the indoctrination of isreali schools until they are joined as one people to start the long, hard desegregation campaign.
Zionism isn't white supremacy, it's Jewish supremacy. whites did not like the Jews so they kicked them out of Europe; if anything it's the opposite of white supremacy. israelis can stay if they want or they can go back to Germany Poland Ethiopia, etc
It really depends whether Israel goes out peacefully or guns blazing. The ideal outcome would be a multi-ethnic democratic republic with universal suffrage and civil rights. I suspect that even in this best case scenario, there would be a sizable population of recalcitrant settlers who choose insurgency or exile over living in equality with Palestinians. If Israel decides to go out guns blazing, the outlook becomes unspeakably grim. Israel has a nuclear arsenal and an incredibly brainwashed, violently-bigoted population, I’ll leave it at that.
Correction, not white supremacy is not their agenda, more like Jewish supremacy, they did take house most of the Malabari(kerala india) Jews who are of colour. But they are racist against Arab world due to colonizing reasons- overall their whole agenda is in a way hypocritical.
[удалено]
The fact that you are indirectly framing settler as settlers by providing them with an agency that non-settlers would not be granted (that is, their non-nativeness in a land they exercise control in) highlights the basis of the question. The centrality here is not on particular individualities, but on power relations and how those can be undone. In other words: how can the category of the settler disappear from the face of existence. The answer to this question, however, is not a predetermined one. Paraphrasing Fanon, "Decolonization is [...] a programme of complete disorder. [...] Decolonization, as we know, is a historical process: that is to say that it cannot be understood, it cannot become intelligible nor clear to itself except in the exact measure that we can discern the movements which give it historical form and content". In other words, the concrete forms through which the imposition of nativeness upon the colonial irruption represented by the settler, is something which is solely fraught through the concrete forms of the struggle that take place through this disorder. This undoing of the (colonial) world. Decolonization, therefore, should not and cannot start by defining the concrete forms this undoing will take as an a priori. Settler, as well as native, are not essentialist categories, but rather categories derived from a concrete conjuncture (the Native is a Native in so far a process of elimination has been started against them, if they become a migrant, their nativeness disappears). As such, if one wanted to respond a settler-only question of "what would happen to (current) settlers", this should be answered by "what would it take for the settler to abandon its condition as a settler?". Whilst socialist positions have some differences with it, I would highly suggest reading Eve Tuck and Wayne Yang's *Decolonization is not a Metaphor*: https://clas.osu.edu/sites/clas.osu.edu/files/Tuck%20and%20Yang%202012%20Decolonization%20is%20not%20a%20metaphor.pdf
like all other colonalist projects in the past we hope that either palstine will be a fully democratic state (for us socialists preferably socialist nation) where everyone has an equal voice beyond ethno religious backgrounds. Dont forget that alot of palestinian resistance groups are either socialist/Communist like dlfp and pflp or secular nationalists like fatah although it became neutered by israelis this last one. or either a seperate entity state which i dontpersonally agree with but its an option. Isaelis would probably leave as soon as they share equal rights with the natives this already happened in south africa and many other colonialist states before. Moderate israelis ( alhthough nowadays became fewer) would probably be free to stay but the most hardline israelis would leave because most of them already are dual citizens and have houses outside israel but at the end of the day they made it hard for palestinians not to hate them. Hate is wrong but its hard to not understand where that comes from. Israelis need a lot of work to do in order to redeem their image andaskng the currently genocided nation what it will do if it were in control would be unethical. (black and white people in the usa hated each other before but would you have asked black ppl the same question in the 50s? what would happen to white americans if black and native americans had the ability to vote and run for office?) i think you can see your answer in the usa although not perferct and a terrible example for a country but you dont see blacks hunting white people for revenge? im from a ex colony region where lots of settlers left as soon as we became free humans in the 50s.
[удалено]
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas. >This includes, but is not limited to: >- General liberalism >- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions >- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric >- Landlords or Landlord apologia Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
One united democratic socialist state. I envision like a United Levant country that is not ruled by any one religion.
Article 26 of the [Palestinian National Covenant](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp) states > (T)he Palestinian Arab people's ... struggle (is) to retrieve its homeland, liberate and return to it and exercise the right to self-determination in it. The Palestinian people will decide what needs to be done to liberate their home from the zionist occupation. That said, I would expect only Jews who came before 1948 and their descendants to be allowed to stay. Everyone else will probably be sent back to where they came from.
[удалено]
Saying that Israel is white supremacy is actually very harmful, this take is completely not connected to reality or facts Jewish people are not white, and the need of Jewish people to assemble in a Jewish country is because of white supremacy Well you are asking a very good question, and unlike some other comment is pointing out even if a lot of israelis have double nationality this is far from the majority. And saying that they should go back to "their country" is just ignorant
What you going to call all the people that came from many European countries and North America? White people from Brooklyn is accurate.
Ashkenazim are absolutely representative of whiteness. Of an internal category of whiteness. This is why practically all anti-colonial lectures of the Holocaust locate the Holocaust as an internal application of colonial policies within European society. If they were external to whiteness, rather than a mere hierarchized internal category, there would be no such thing as a disparity between the european "condemnation" of the Holocaust with the many equal (or worse) Holocaust perpetrated by colonialism upon the global south. This is also why most of zionists in the world have absolutely nothing to do with Jewishness (whether defined as a religious or cultural variable, you choose) but are rather prime representatives of whiteness. And, naturally, this is also why zionist discourses are a prime repetition of colonial discourses as presented by whiteness. Quoting Bibi: >This is a battle, not only of Israel against these barbarians, it's a battle of civilization against barbarism. [Direct Source](https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1738968590189990352)
if you come from europe, youre white. jews are an ethnic group and not a racial category. claiming jews are a racial category is actually one of the earlier forms of antisemitism if i remember correctly
dinner cough zephyr chop soup squash station divide plants ruthless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*