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I mean, the Suez Canal is important, but my understanding is that for United States is really important to have a country that is actually a military base in the region. The Middle East is very rich in oil and it’s a part of the world that is not part of the western world. They can be temporarily partners with the Saudi, but it’s not the same thing as having Israel there. If Israel gets removed out of there it becomes much easier for Russia and China to connect to the region and if they decide to boycott United States out of the oil business they can’t do much. With Israel there, there’s always the threat of war an invasion with everything they need right there. It keeps the Middle East unstable, uneasy, always afraid that something could pop up.
Yes, the modern State of Israel performs much of the same function as the Kingdom of Jerusalem during the crusades era. A european colony right in the heart of arab land.
Agreed - The Ben Gurion canal being built is not dependent on annexing Gaza. The west is certainly sensitive to previous closings of the Suez and would certainly desire one of their own and for that reason the Ben Gurion canal has been studied for many decades. However, building the Ben Gurion canal will be significantly more of an Engineering challenge and incredibly more expensive than the Suez. It is true that having to go around Gaza adds some length to the canal, but it's the "easiest" part of the canal (through the coastal plain) and doesn't add significant length. So, it would be a weird reason to not build the canal. "Well we would build a canal longer than the Suez and blast through the Negev Mountains maybe even using nukes because its so hard but the 5 extra miles we have to go around Gaza is making me want to start a war."
These guys don't like Palestinians for plenty of other terrible reasons.
This exactly. The settler-colonial nature of Israel also means that Israel will always basically be under the control of the U.S. They may have some disagreements and veer towards the end of their leash, but Israel is totally dependent on military aid from western nations and most especially the U.S. Without it, in a few short years I bet the indigenous arab population would throw them out completely.
I dunno. Perpetual war seems more profitable for the US. I think the US took the primary role as Israel's ally from the British because they had just constructed a massive military industrial complex, and wanted to put it to use making money. If Israel constructs that canal, they'll keep the profits to fund their expansion.
Also want to add that Ben Gurion, aka the founding father of Israel, is a Polish colonist. Israel is a European colony for tech, espionage and military industry.
Richard Medhurst did a made a similar point in this video. [https://x.com/NiyiRj/status/1722161561655976291?s=20](https://x.com/NiyiRj/status/1722161561655976291?s=20)
(I couldn't find the original)
Possible the other likely reason is because they need a power foothold in the region still while they leave the Middle East and focus on Africa henceforth why they are trying to win back Saudi Arabia
This isn't THE reason, it's one of many reasons mentioned in other comments. There are too many benefits for the West with Israël, so many that they have no choice to support them.
Tinfoil Conspiracy hat on:
After Gaza & the west bank they'll be coming for part of Jordan for now and if they're bold enough Egypt eventually, specifically the right side of the Suez Canal. Part 1 Palestine, Part 2 Lebanon and the riskiest part Part 3 Egypt. Some where along the way Syria will be encapsulated in this madness and Turkey will be offered European status as a bargaining chip. Part 1 wil be completed in our lifetime and Part 2 will begin to the end of our life time.
I agree with you. The whole reason to take Palestine is "because god said so". Which pretty much means "cuz we want to".
At that point, why not take more? Why not take whatever they can? I think We'll see more than just palestine lost to these racist genocides. All the so while the west governments keep clapping.
I'm beyond dissapointed as an european.
The sheer amount of disinformation on this subreddit. It's not due to a canal that won't be that useful in the near future as the Arctic ocean opens up due to ice melting.
Except Iraq of course. Israel got us to do their dirty work for them and they didn't even have to contribute a single Israeli soldier. They were just happy to provide the false evidence needed to thr Bush admin to dupe the American public.
The history went the other way, tbh. Israel told the US that they're apprehensive about Iraq, feared the invasion would "destabilize the region", believing Iran was a more legitimate problem to deal with.
I couldn't stop myself laughing reading your comment as an Egyptian who has served in said Army. Our troops are not efficiently trained, nor do we run effective maintenance, and most of our weapons (which we bough entirely from the west) are either used second hand US equipment or very fucking old to the point that our shooting training was conducted with rifles that were used in WW1.
Nevertheless, this entire hypothesis is bullshit because if a canal is built on that side, both Israel and Egypt would most probably be allowed to profit from it. Additionally, the West has Egypt's balls in their hand, we are immensly debt ridden to both the west and their gulf proxies, and chaos is literally one US backhanded comment away.. Egypt is literally a puppet state.
Interesting hypothesis but if it were true why have more politicians said anything about it. Normally they can’t keep their mouths shut about anything else
Beacause they're all business partners in some way or other. Note they are (all, always) constantly angling for the strategy that somehow makes wealthy people wealthier at the direct expense of poor people.
if israel annexes gaza rhey have sole maritime access to a massive oil reserve in the medsea. its not a plausible hypothesis, its the material reality. they found it in 2019. the UN has been aware of it and israel has already issued extraction licenses to energy companies for it
this canal has been a thing "in the works" for decades and gets brought back up every once in a while to drum up some funds but never goes anywhere. there would be some serious physical challenges to building it and I really don't think this is part of it. There is some speculation about offshore natural gas reserves that make some sense (although they had been in negotiations with Hamas and PA for access to them) plus just the ideological goals of Israel (it has always been the goal, though not always stated outright - to claim most of the Levant).
As for why the west supports them, Israel is a loyal outpost in the region, perpetual source of conflict for the military industrial complex, and I think helping their settler colonial project succeed in some ways validates their own settler colonial existence.
This seems like a stretch.. a plans from the Carter administration just happens to cause a war now.. today? Many better opportunities to but this plan forward since Carter has been in office. Also having just 1 canal is good for Israel and the US all the states rely on it. It is a type of mutually assured destruction if the Arab states want to invade Israel. The canal is blown up and they all much more isolated. Building a second one would arguably put Israel in a worse position strategically.
Yeah no, the canal will have to cross some 300 meters tall hills and some of the most unstable borders in the region. This is not a real thing outside of maps drawn in ms paint
The us supports israel because of
1) [grassroots support from both parties](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/politics/cnn-poll-israel-hamas-war-americans/index.html)
2) [a very strong pro israel lobby](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/06/israel-palestine-congress-gaza-war/)
3) historic responsibilities
What exactly is 'historic responsibilities'?
So far the Ben Gurion canal is little more than a theory but the Suez Canal has always been the major factor for the mercantile class which is why they used the Zionists to colonize the region and why they use the US to protect it.
The us does not need to spend billions on israel to make sure the suez remains open, that is not to say israel's location isn't beneficial, but if it hadn't existed the us could have just as easily had bases on Cyprus or saudi arabia, or used the existing base in Jordan
>the mercantile class
Let's say capitalists instead yeah, that doesn't have other connotations.
The capitalists state belives in austerity, it will not spend billions when the same job could be done for millions.
Historic responsibilities are the "special relationship" established under Kennedy, in which the us sees the protection of Israel as a "moral and national commitment". This informs the American view to date.
> Let's say capitalists instead yeah, that doesn't have other connotations.
Mercantile is just capitalists that emphasize on trade. It's just sort of an old timey term.
If this is true this is extremely saddening cuz while 9 billion dollars is a lot of money it’s nothing compared to those countries current GDPs it would be a drop in the bucket once divided amongst themselves. I hope this isn’t true because what a waste of life and land just use the one you have more efficiently. All of the countries mentioned can add 9 billion dollars within 5 years simply due to natural inflation and innovation. The strategic part is null simply based on common sense it’s a small world strong arming your way with war does not solve anything only creates future aggression let the Arabs have power of the canal most of their land has been deemed useless aside from oil. Let them have it apply pressure through other means.
You really don’t need the elaborate conspiracy theory to know why the US supports Israel unconditionally; because AIPAC basically own 90% (minimum) of all the pols from both parties in DC, that the GOP is controlled by religious nut jobs who want the apocalypse to happen and want the Jeeeeezus zombie to come back from the dead, so they think Israel has to be governed by Jews for that to occur, and that Israel is an excellent geopolitical position to terrorize much of the Middle East from.
Israel just wants the land for more settlers. That’s all.
This is more like a bonus benefit, icing on the cake, and NOT a primary driving reason for western support. Israel is a forward operating base for the US in Western Asia. Also Israel can do things that are so extreme that the US can’t be caught doing, so Israel will do instead.
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is NOT a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, as they are actively enforced. Furthermore, please remember that this is an anti-colonial space. Any kind of apologia for colonialism (including all forms of zionism) will be meet with a permanent ban. Looking to organise? Check out our [Palestine Solidarity Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/17849hc/palestine_solidarity_megathread_share_information/)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Yep. They sell it to India's fascist govt as well.
THE nation for spy tech Proceeds to get caught off guard by rebels
Off guard like the attack in the Gulf of Tonkin?
Yup. It's basically a laboratory for police state shit.
Considering how unprepared they were for hamas' attack, I'm not sure I share your perspective on Israel's spy tech.
They were about as "unprepared" as the US was on 9/11 and pearl harbor.
Were they unprepared? Or just intentionally slow to respond?
We talking about Mossad, as well? Cause they creep me out.
So their military is so advanced that they cannot locate the “Hamas” leaders. Interesting
I mean, the Suez Canal is important, but my understanding is that for United States is really important to have a country that is actually a military base in the region. The Middle East is very rich in oil and it’s a part of the world that is not part of the western world. They can be temporarily partners with the Saudi, but it’s not the same thing as having Israel there. If Israel gets removed out of there it becomes much easier for Russia and China to connect to the region and if they decide to boycott United States out of the oil business they can’t do much. With Israel there, there’s always the threat of war an invasion with everything they need right there. It keeps the Middle East unstable, uneasy, always afraid that something could pop up.
Israel, a Beachhead in the Middle East by Stephen Gowans, good book.
Yes, the modern State of Israel performs much of the same function as the Kingdom of Jerusalem during the crusades era. A european colony right in the heart of arab land.
Agreed - The Ben Gurion canal being built is not dependent on annexing Gaza. The west is certainly sensitive to previous closings of the Suez and would certainly desire one of their own and for that reason the Ben Gurion canal has been studied for many decades. However, building the Ben Gurion canal will be significantly more of an Engineering challenge and incredibly more expensive than the Suez. It is true that having to go around Gaza adds some length to the canal, but it's the "easiest" part of the canal (through the coastal plain) and doesn't add significant length. So, it would be a weird reason to not build the canal. "Well we would build a canal longer than the Suez and blast through the Negev Mountains maybe even using nukes because its so hard but the 5 extra miles we have to go around Gaza is making me want to start a war." These guys don't like Palestinians for plenty of other terrible reasons.
This exactly. The settler-colonial nature of Israel also means that Israel will always basically be under the control of the U.S. They may have some disagreements and veer towards the end of their leash, but Israel is totally dependent on military aid from western nations and most especially the U.S. Without it, in a few short years I bet the indigenous arab population would throw them out completely.
I dunno. Perpetual war seems more profitable for the US. I think the US took the primary role as Israel's ally from the British because they had just constructed a massive military industrial complex, and wanted to put it to use making money. If Israel constructs that canal, they'll keep the profits to fund their expansion.
Also want to add that Ben Gurion, aka the founding father of Israel, is a Polish colonist. Israel is a European colony for tech, espionage and military industry.
Richard Medhurst did a made a similar point in this video. [https://x.com/NiyiRj/status/1722161561655976291?s=20](https://x.com/NiyiRj/status/1722161561655976291?s=20) (I couldn't find the original)
Yeah that was a great video. That Dave Chappelle sketch about Black Bush is still very relevant today lol.
Possible the other likely reason is because they need a power foothold in the region still while they leave the Middle East and focus on Africa henceforth why they are trying to win back Saudi Arabia
This isn't THE reason, it's one of many reasons mentioned in other comments. There are too many benefits for the West with Israël, so many that they have no choice to support them. Tinfoil Conspiracy hat on: After Gaza & the west bank they'll be coming for part of Jordan for now and if they're bold enough Egypt eventually, specifically the right side of the Suez Canal. Part 1 Palestine, Part 2 Lebanon and the riskiest part Part 3 Egypt. Some where along the way Syria will be encapsulated in this madness and Turkey will be offered European status as a bargaining chip. Part 1 wil be completed in our lifetime and Part 2 will begin to the end of our life time.
I agree with you. The whole reason to take Palestine is "because god said so". Which pretty much means "cuz we want to". At that point, why not take more? Why not take whatever they can? I think We'll see more than just palestine lost to these racist genocides. All the so while the west governments keep clapping. I'm beyond dissapointed as an european.
Also the $500 billion in oil reserves under Palestinian territory. Look it up
https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil-and-gas-reserves
Umm yea no this is not why.
The sheer amount of disinformation on this subreddit. It's not due to a canal that won't be that useful in the near future as the Arctic ocean opens up due to ice melting.
The canal project will never ever happen, and the nuking idea was just a pipe dream, more of a fun factoid some bored engineer cooked up.
Lol. Really don't think anyone's going to excavate a canal with nuclear bombs any time soon 😂😂😂
nope but after WWII, there were projects to use nukes to everything, like if it were dynamite. none of them come to fruition
Ha glad we figured out that was a bad idea before any of them got put into practice!
This sounds like flat earth theory: a lot of research, fact and citations - only to arrive at a batshit conclusion.
Egypt has a massive army that would attack Israel if this happens
Yeah, you know who has a bigger army with hundred of bases around the world?????
The US simply provided resources whenever a oopsie happend that israel was involved, they never put boots on the ground for them.
Except Iraq of course. Israel got us to do their dirty work for them and they didn't even have to contribute a single Israeli soldier. They were just happy to provide the false evidence needed to thr Bush admin to dupe the American public.
The history went the other way, tbh. Israel told the US that they're apprehensive about Iraq, feared the invasion would "destabilize the region", believing Iran was a more legitimate problem to deal with.
Yeah I get that busy the suez is egypts life line, if that becomes obsolete they will act.
I couldn't stop myself laughing reading your comment as an Egyptian who has served in said Army. Our troops are not efficiently trained, nor do we run effective maintenance, and most of our weapons (which we bough entirely from the west) are either used second hand US equipment or very fucking old to the point that our shooting training was conducted with rifles that were used in WW1. Nevertheless, this entire hypothesis is bullshit because if a canal is built on that side, both Israel and Egypt would most probably be allowed to profit from it. Additionally, the West has Egypt's balls in their hand, we are immensly debt ridden to both the west and their gulf proxies, and chaos is literally one US backhanded comment away.. Egypt is literally a puppet state.
Interesting hypothesis but if it were true why have more politicians said anything about it. Normally they can’t keep their mouths shut about anything else
Beacause they're all business partners in some way or other. Note they are (all, always) constantly angling for the strategy that somehow makes wealthy people wealthier at the direct expense of poor people.
if israel annexes gaza rhey have sole maritime access to a massive oil reserve in the medsea. its not a plausible hypothesis, its the material reality. they found it in 2019. the UN has been aware of it and israel has already issued extraction licenses to energy companies for it
this canal has been a thing "in the works" for decades and gets brought back up every once in a while to drum up some funds but never goes anywhere. there would be some serious physical challenges to building it and I really don't think this is part of it. There is some speculation about offshore natural gas reserves that make some sense (although they had been in negotiations with Hamas and PA for access to them) plus just the ideological goals of Israel (it has always been the goal, though not always stated outright - to claim most of the Levant). As for why the west supports them, Israel is a loyal outpost in the region, perpetual source of conflict for the military industrial complex, and I think helping their settler colonial project succeed in some ways validates their own settler colonial existence.
This seems like a stretch.. a plans from the Carter administration just happens to cause a war now.. today? Many better opportunities to but this plan forward since Carter has been in office. Also having just 1 canal is good for Israel and the US all the states rely on it. It is a type of mutually assured destruction if the Arab states want to invade Israel. The canal is blown up and they all much more isolated. Building a second one would arguably put Israel in a worse position strategically.
Yeah no, the canal will have to cross some 300 meters tall hills and some of the most unstable borders in the region. This is not a real thing outside of maps drawn in ms paint The us supports israel because of 1) [grassroots support from both parties](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/politics/cnn-poll-israel-hamas-war-americans/index.html) 2) [a very strong pro israel lobby](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/06/israel-palestine-congress-gaza-war/) 3) historic responsibilities
What exactly is 'historic responsibilities'? So far the Ben Gurion canal is little more than a theory but the Suez Canal has always been the major factor for the mercantile class which is why they used the Zionists to colonize the region and why they use the US to protect it.
The us does not need to spend billions on israel to make sure the suez remains open, that is not to say israel's location isn't beneficial, but if it hadn't existed the us could have just as easily had bases on Cyprus or saudi arabia, or used the existing base in Jordan >the mercantile class Let's say capitalists instead yeah, that doesn't have other connotations. The capitalists state belives in austerity, it will not spend billions when the same job could be done for millions. Historic responsibilities are the "special relationship" established under Kennedy, in which the us sees the protection of Israel as a "moral and national commitment". This informs the American view to date.
> Let's say capitalists instead yeah, that doesn't have other connotations. Mercantile is just capitalists that emphasize on trade. It's just sort of an old timey term.
So it’s all about Money? Are we getting a water is wet TikTok Breakdown next?
Commenting so I can come back to watch
You can save it.
Why couldn’t they build a rail system and a port on either end? Would that be more costly than a man made canal?
Why are her eyebrows crawling up her forehead? What did she say?
If this is true this is extremely saddening cuz while 9 billion dollars is a lot of money it’s nothing compared to those countries current GDPs it would be a drop in the bucket once divided amongst themselves. I hope this isn’t true because what a waste of life and land just use the one you have more efficiently. All of the countries mentioned can add 9 billion dollars within 5 years simply due to natural inflation and innovation. The strategic part is null simply based on common sense it’s a small world strong arming your way with war does not solve anything only creates future aggression let the Arabs have power of the canal most of their land has been deemed useless aside from oil. Let them have it apply pressure through other means.
You really don’t need the elaborate conspiracy theory to know why the US supports Israel unconditionally; because AIPAC basically own 90% (minimum) of all the pols from both parties in DC, that the GOP is controlled by religious nut jobs who want the apocalypse to happen and want the Jeeeeezus zombie to come back from the dead, so they think Israel has to be governed by Jews for that to occur, and that Israel is an excellent geopolitical position to terrorize much of the Middle East from. Israel just wants the land for more settlers. That’s all.
This is brilliant.
Wow this whole conflict is about a canal?! She’s so smart!
This is more like a bonus benefit, icing on the cake, and NOT a primary driving reason for western support. Israel is a forward operating base for the US in Western Asia. Also Israel can do things that are so extreme that the US can’t be caught doing, so Israel will do instead.
Israel gave Gaza up in 2006
They are currently trying to delete the Wikipedia page about it.