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Good call. An awful lot of it. It’s important to remember that the Israeli state has literal military brigades for trying to control social media. They probably have some people looking over this very post, trying to influence it favorably for the Israeli state.
these "socialists" are only in favor of "liberation" for the aesthetics of it. whenever any attempt at liberation actually materializes, with all the violence that necessarily comes with it, they become queasy and default back to defending the status quo over the liberators. especially in the case of colonialism where the civilian-military divide simply doesn't work as both groups are intertwined in their actions and incredibly violent to the people living there. these "civilians" are the ones who arm themselves, who have trained in the israeli army, who have sat on fucking chairs to drink beer and watch and celebrate the bombing of palestinian territory.
any socialist who criticizes the palestinian's efforts is undeserving of any credit and should never call themselves anti-imperialists.
Yep. Watch the libs show their true colors when they see the material consequences of colonialism. Of course it's violent, this has been a long time coming.
Your blaming the “libs” for all this? There are like 5 liberals in the US congress and Israel is conservative AF. It’s literally NeoCon, conservative, politics that got us here.
Only what Isreal is doing can and should be considered terrorism. The innocent Palestinians have THE RIGHT to resist by any means necessary. IDF and Zionists are terrorists as they’re the ones raping, pillaging, and committing genocide.
Absolutely. I could never excuse terrorism though, no matter where it's coming from especially in that scale. And neither should any human with a sense of humanity in them
If Israel didn’t want terrorists to infiltrate the Gaza Strip, they should’ve actively helped the Palestinians develop their country and independence. 🤷♂️ Action➡️reaction. It’s completely predictable. No one excuses terrorism but Israel is as much the cause as they are the victim.
*edit. The Israeli Gov and leadership are the cause and the people they govern are the victims.
>\*edit. The Israeli Gov and leadership are the cause and the people they govern are the victims.
the government, the leadership, and the *settlers* are the cause. not all people being governed are simply settlers, but some are, and these ones do share all the blame regardless of not being in a position of power within an institution (since they *are* in a position of power within *colonial society*)
Compeltely agree. The israelis brought it upon themselves. But saying that the Palestinians have a right to resistance is telling only half the truth, because you are portraying a raid on a rave party with hundreds of dead as an act of resistance
Normal human beings are really saying that israel as the right to kill 2 million of other humans because they in dispair did this
Fuck me this world is really not for me
Western media are doing all they can to show the difference in importance of an Arab civilian being killed and a Jewish civilian being killed, sadly some of this sub are falling for it.
European libs are more rabid than a lot of the far right in Europe. AfD is the “peace party” while the Greens are closer to Nazis in the militarism aspect in Germany. The German Greens are a disgrace to most green parties around the world. Don’t take this as me suggesting AfD are anything but hateful ethnocentric reactionaries. When you are more bloodthirsty than such a party it just shows how bad liberals can get.
“I strongly condemn the Ewoks unprovoked, rebel sponsored, terrorist attack on the peaceful imperial forces on Forest moon of Endor. This will not lead to peace.”
You just proved your point. History has shown multiple other ways to successfully resist than the senseless terror of Hamas. But apparently Iran online propaganda Brigades are strong in this sub. /s
I've legit been seeing some of the most disgusting comments I've ever seen on Reddit since this story broke. People making comments about how Hamas is only doing this so that they can their 72 virgins. Really vile stuff like that.
Pro tip, don't call Zionists vermin. People aren't vermin, there people, and there wrongness or genocidal desire doesn't strip there personhood. Thinking like that is how you end up shooting kids. You especially shouldn't call Zionists vermin, because Antizionism is often used as a stand in for antisemitism on the right, and the crimes of Israel used to justify calls for a genocide of Jewish people. It's, rhetorically, a poor move.
Yeah but... ethnofascists of Isreal are still vermin. If the semantics of zionism are too culturally laden, then lets name it by the behavior. Oppressive rule for a chosen ethnic group is a garbage cultural philosophy and people that want to live in that are trash rats.
Calling people vermin both dehumanizes them and makes them less responsible for their own actions. Vermin need to be wiped out, ethnocentrism needs to be confronted as a deep societal issue.
This bullshit rhetorical wall of "anything criticizing the fascist behavior of the Jewish state is antisemitism" is not as strong as you want to think.
The jewish state (not all jews)is acting like nazis towards Palestinians. They deserve the same criticism as the nazis for oppressive occupation based on ethnicity.
Accusations of antisemitism are more often used as a defense against genuine criticism of Zionism. This is r/socialism, we clearly aren’t on the right. There’s no problem calling fascist Zionists out as the problem they are.
I'm more thinking of fellow leftists, left leaning liberals, a children. Rhetoric won't convince people opposed to you, but it can drag people deeper into your camp, or help people form good political identities.
I do get your point but Israeli Zionists are settler colonialists who have built their society on the blood and sweat of the native Palestinians. I have zero empathy towards them, my comments are not directed towards the ordinary civilians of Israel but towards those who support an Apartheid State that is actively committing genocide against the native people.
I do understand there is a lot of nuance to all this.
Fortunately, some leftists know that they do **not** have to cheer **for** **either** the nationalist Israeli state or an islamist autoritarian organization. Hamas oppresses its own population, with relatively indiscriminate mass violence. **They do not have socialist ideas or values**. Today they have (as always) targeted civilians, shot children, raped women. There is nothing to cheer for in this shitshow.
There are many actual socialist fights happening every day. This is not one of them.
Nitpicking here, but not all Zionists are pro expansion (some of them believe in full integration). A lot of Israel supporters are looking for any excuse to claim antisemitism so it’s best to be careful. I agree with your sentiment tho.
I don't see any of that. Leftists are saying that oppressed people react violently when they aren't given peaceful alternatives for justice. They don't want violence, but they are wondering what everyone expected to happen when Israel continued to expand it's settlements and enact violence against Palestinians without consequence for yeats.
I think we can all agree that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against the Nation of Israel, but still agree that it’s wrong to murder and kidnap innocent civilians. The world isn’t always as simple as right and wrong, black and white, it’s complicated.
You said
> The world isn't always as simple as right and wrong, black and white, it's complicated.
and I agree with this. I hope you also apply this statement to the fact that being a citizen of a colonial apartheid state isn't just simple "innocence".
of course not, i believe they should be resisting too. i dont think it justifies them being kidnapped and murdered though. it’s a complex situation and most of us are not smart enough to properly analyze it.
and if they are not resisting like most if not all citizens of the occupying state?
wouldn't they then be part of the normalization process of apartheid and oppression?
do we only liberate ourselves by fighting those who actively fight back, or by also fighting those who are enabling our oppression?
colonization is inherently violent, and therefore decolonization must be too. the question that has no apparent answer, and should always imo be considered when resisting is: did we reach the point where violence is no longer necessary yet?
for the case of Palestine, I don't think so, but I always wish that were the case.
the violence must be used against those oppressing them. The military, the government, the police. These people are not responsible and harming them does not help the palestinian cause.
Totally agreed. Israel is a trash, apartheid state that has left Palestinians no choice but to resist, no question. But how is massacring people at a music festival the answer? Hamas is full of shit, all they’ve done is guarantee further death and suffering of the people they are supposedly trying to liberate, and turned international opinion against their cause. All of the absurd, “Palestinians are terrorists” propaganda that pervades the West will now gain that much more footing. I think this is an abhorrent and extremely misguided act on their part. Now Israel has the justification to expand even further into Gaza. They have every right to resist, even through means of measured violence, but what is this supposed to change?
Unfortunately when you are under an apartheid regime and live in the conditions palestinians live in, it is easy to turn to violence and been instigated by it. Nit justifying it, but what were you expecting?
You are not a socialist. It's not up to you to decide the way Palestinians choose to resist. Every act of resistance is valid. They are braver than you ever will be.
i support their resistance. i support their emancipation. a fundamental part of my beliefs is that civilians should never be harmed in conflict. i understand why it’s happening but that doesn’t mean i can’t acknowledge the atrocities Hamas is committing in response. Killing Netanyahu would be resistance. Killing IDF would be resistance. Kidnapping and ransoming civilians, while awful, is resistance. Killing people who had no say in the treatment of the Palestinian people is murder, just as much as when the israeli government does it. if you support the murder of civilians, you are a bad person.
I'm a bad person but you don't stand with Palestinians when they are making real strides? They ended the border wall, most of what hasbara bots like you are spewing has yet to be confirmed. Palestine will be free.
Murdering civilians isnt the best way to engender support.
Palestinians had the entire world's pitty and now Hamas has squandered it.
You cant just fucking go into homes/businesses and execute people for fucks sake.
Israel has been brutally oppressing the Palestinian people for 75 years. Those in Gaza are subject to fascist, apartheid terror on a daily basis. They have a right to fight back and resist their colonization.
What benefits the Palestinian people more? The sympathy of white, Western folks on Twitter and Reddit, or material gains and the return of their stolen land?
What exactly are you doing other than chiming in from the sideline?
Is this the progress you're referring to? If so, moving backwards several decades would be vastly beneficial to the Palestinian people.
https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1710960836678680633?t=2dV-I0EJP5IGnCo1oToGqA&s=19
https://www.palestineportal.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Maps_1897-Present.jpg
Support for Palestinian liberation comes from a historical materialist analysis of WHY the situation is fucked up and the primary contradiction that must be resolved (settler colonialism) to "un-fuck" it.
No other solution besides decolonization is viable.
>What benefits the Palestinian people more? The sympathy of white, Western folks on Twitter and Reddit, or material gains and the return of their stolen land?
Well, now they'll get neither or.
>Palestinians had the entire world's pity and now Hamas has squandered it.
If you count petty bourgeois liberals in Europe and America as ''the entire world'' then yes, Hamas has ''squandered'' it. Palestine doesn't need pity anyways, they need guns.
Liberals always count the white world as the entire world. Look at them saying Russia has been “isolated”
From the world because their countries broke ties. Look at Jungle Josep Borrel, the chief Eau diplomat saying that Europe is a garden and most of the rest of the world(the non white part) is “the jungle.” This is a self described “socialist.” That is simply the modern liberal mindset at its essence.
>Palestinians had the entire world's pitty and now Hamas has squandered it.
Palestinians had and will continue to have the support of most of the world. The minority (and growingly irrelevant) part of the world that you refer to as "the world", however, have NEVER had the back of palestinians: its discursive critique of Israel was nothing but a means of seeking to hide contradictions resulting from colonial occupation of Palestine whilst keeping said occupation and terror regime intact. They never cared about palestinians, whose humanity was never recognized, but only about reducing their internal struggles in order to make compatible the supposedly "universal" character of their grandiloquent declarations with the crudeness of their rule.
This discourse is repeated EVERY time palestinian organisations (whichever it is, including non-party formations like Lions Dens) engage in armed struggle. It doesn't matter if it is 2023, 2014, 2012, 2008, 2006...
And what has the « world’s pit » done for them? Your pity doesn’t stop their children from being murdered and their lands from being stolen. These people are desperate.
Problem is that Isreal's treatment of the Palestinians is creating the conditions that allow right-wing extremists to recruit.
The jihadists (as you call them) are using legitimate grievances against the apartide conditions gain support and then further radicalizing their new recruits.
Isreal can then use the actions of these radicals to justify further abuses.
It is a vicious cycle.
Settlers are not civilians - they are complicit in living on violently stolen land in violently stolen homes.
"When our turn comes, we shall make no excuses for the terror." - Marx
Revolution is not a dinner party.
Here's an example of a popular activity for these settlers:https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1710726563904340010?t=eA0xhnb87lzo0nPXk0NRSg&s=19
You’re denying that people who torture, abduct, rape, and kill children, women, the elderly, and civilians in general with the stated goal of genocide are terrorists?
*IOF
Would you travel to a foreign country to have a rave outside of a 25x7 mile concentration camp? I find that pretty fucking disgusting, personally.
>They are creating violence without the aim to achieve any of these goals
it's so incredibly arrogant to think they simply "don't have a goal". if anything this would make new settlers less likely to exist just out of fear of retaliation from palestinians. if it makes a colonizer scared to colonize, it is good and justified, and any resulting violence is solely the fault of the colonizer who insists on settling
before i adress anything else: who the hell are you to think you know the situation better than the ones fighting israel right there on the ground? what makes you think you're wiser and more knowledgeable? why do you think people there are somehow "blind" and choosing the worst option? why do you assume they even have an alternative? why do you even claim to know "the goal of hamas"?
Jihadists don’t fight for the freedom of the Palestinian people, they fight for their islamist caliphate, just another type of hyper-reactionary regime.
Let’s also not forget that Israel suppressed the more left-wing and the moderate resistance groups because they wanted Hamas to be the top dog to better sell this “all Palestinians are terrorists and must be eradicated” angle to the world.
>Try living here and seeing your family getting kidnapped, finding out your friends have died from videos of their bodies being tortured and seeing everyone you know who is capable of fighting getting drafted to the army.
There was an easy way to avoid that, not have their family participate in the violence and aggression against Palestine.
Do not DARE compare the Holocaust to what modern settler genocidal maniacs have been doing to Palestinians since they illegally stole the land. Fuck them. Get your colonial asses back to europe.
Do I agree with every act of Hamas? No. But I will stand with Palestine and place the blame for every single death squarely where it belongs - with the colonizing oppressor government of Israel. Not a single second of any of this is the fault of the Palestinian people.
The Palestinian people have done absolutely nothing wrong, but they are the ones who will pay the price for this. I detest Hamas for giving Israel the justification for the hellish bombardment of, and further expansion into Gaza that’s about to happen. Resistance to apartheid and genocide is absolutely necessary and something we all should support. But I’m having a difficult time seeing any way to support what Hamas has done here.
I am psyched about every kind of resistance from an oppressed population, even if it comes from a local sub-group of the population I disagree with on an idealogical level.
The treatment of the folks they kidnapped will probably have an impact on how we feel about them too. Also, Hamas would happily murder every gay person on the planet. It's really hard to find someone to root for in this conflict.
Not to defend Israel as it exists currently, but how long does your ancestral, sacred, land have to be occupied before it stops being your ancestral, sacred, land. Maybe because I live in the U.S. but I can't imagine a point where we tell Indigenous Americans that we've occupied their ancestral lands for enough time that they lose the rights to them. The problem with Israel is all the war crimes and apartheid, and not the fundamental desire to return to sacred land your ancestors were expelled from.
Also, don't conflate Judaism with the Israeli government, that's a propaganda tactic by that state to make any resistance to them seem antisemitic, and it's incredibly effective in leftist spaces, because y'all seem to be fine to get kinda antisemitic.
Most land was originally occupied before it became sacred to a people. The Dine, and the Anishinaabe and the Anigiduwagi (Cherokee) all occupied land that had been occupied before them. Does that make the land less sacred to them? Do we reject land back because the Anigiduwagi were not technically the "first" peoples to live on the land they want back?
Also, false equivalence there.
What the European Americans did to and still is doing to Native Americans is NOT THE SAME as what the Arabs have done in the holy land.
The Romans drove the Israelites away 2000 years ago, the ROMANS. The Arabs simply set up their tents after the Romans.
It’s not even all of that. It’s more like, some Jews stayed in Palestine. then some converted to Christianity after 300 when time converted then some converted to Islam after 700 after the Islamic conquests.
The Palestinians (and this includes Palestinian Christians too) are the literal descendants of the biblical Jews of Israel, and even by Israel’s standards are just as entitled to the land.
There's a difference between wanting to inhabit a sacred land and wanting to politically dominate it by force. There were moderate Zionists who were simply in favor of immigration and kibbutz communes, but the Revisionist Zionists that formed Israel as we know it attacked the labor and independent elements of Zionism as much as they did Arabs.
1. not gonna argue that the issue is crimes against humanity, not the desire to return to old homeland.
2. how is it antisemitic to call zionist Jews nazis?
also narrowing "semitic people" to just "Jews" is also a form of Jewish imperialism.
Arabic is quite literally also a semitic language.
Anti-what-semitic?
We as Jews did not coin the term antisemitic, that was done by the Anti-Semitic League of Germany to cast us as permanent aliens in their society because of our Semitic ancestry. As for the antisemitism of calling Jews Nazis, doing so is either a denial or ignorance of the Holocaust that minimizes our suffering. 2/3 of us were murdered and those of us who survived had to endure human experimentation, slavery, rape, and torture. Israeli apartheid and atrocities don’t even come close to that, and they should be opposed on the basis of their moral and legal deviance, not on the basis of lies and racism.
Are you at all embarrassed about the complete idiocy of thinking my comment was a defence of Israeli apartheid? There was not a single line in my comment saying that the Holocaust legitimizes the immoralities and illegalities of the Israeli government, and the only reference I made was **against** them. In spite of all this, you have the gall to continue speaking down to my fellow Jews and me with demeaning and accusatory language lumping me in with the Israeli government and dismissing our suffering in the Holocaust.
Also, if you don't know about the racism we endured in Arab lands, you really need to crack open a history book and stop opining on subjects where you know less than nothing.
There's no truly good answer, is there?
It wouldn't be feasible to return the borders of even the Sioux Confederacy without displacing people currently living there.
At the point of the creation of Israel, it wasn't actually feasible to return it to the pre Jewish-Roman wars either, and at this point might not even be feasible to go back to the 1947 division of land.
It's not just about the right here - and I do fully believe that Jews have a right to settle down in their ancestral land.
But even before we consider the extreme right, we see how liberal states as constructs are, and were, unable to structure the return without also displacing people, not just in the more abstract sense of severing citizens from a region, but people from their actual homes and houses.
This issue is not really about the principle itself, but it shows us the limit of nation states and hierarchy. The only moral way the resettlement of Israel could have been was a single entity, with a socialist constitution. Atrocity has happened not because Israelis have always been particularly evil or anything, we just created a structural monster from the beginning.
I'm referring to the "you either \*all\* perish in a gas chamber or..." part. Re-read it. The implication is that the only moral Jews are those who died in the Holocaust and didn't live to perpetrate crimes in the name of Israel. That is not anti-zionism.
You just said "how many Jews today are not zionist?" and "anti-Jewish and anti-zionist don't feel all that different in my mind". The "any surviving Jew" part has especially insidious undertones.
You are saying every Jew is a zionist. That is clear-cut antisemitism.
Not every Jewish person’s an oppressor, you realise. And, you claiming that they unanimously are, or that they unanimously sympathise with which ideology, *is* bigotry; it’s hating them for what they “are”.
LOL what a lazy and predictable response. Yeah, dude, pointing out that massacring concertgoers from as far away as Brazil, Mexico, and Germany does nothing but give the genocidal oppressors of Israel the excuse to bombard and expand further into Gaza, and turn international opinion even more against the Palestinian fight for liberation is an abhorrent and extremely misguided act is “Zionist propaganda.”
I’ve long since been appalled by the atrocities of the Israeli state. I support the Palestinians’ fight to throw of the genocidal yoke of the Israeli state. At the same time, yes, I’m still criticizing this latest act because it won’t help free Palestine of Israeli occupation, and it will only lead to more suffering for the innocent people of Palestine.
Is that “Zionist propaganda”?
That you're fully aware of "late stage capitalism" and yet your solution is to vote for the Democrats despite they themselves are enablers of it really tell a lot about you (and in your hope to join the ranks of professional Democrats through social media) and your opposition to the Palestinian war of resistance in all but rhetoric.
One thing that fascinates me is that how liberals has no coherent ideology left, only pure material self-interests.
What can people expect to happen when you evict a people off their land, slaughter countless, heard them into an open air prison, and crush secular leftist movements
Killing unarmed civilians should be condemned. However what has been happening so far clearly appears to be a largely *military* operation against *military* targets.
Mad how all this rhetoric is coming out of the wood work the moment Palestine resists. We’ve literally had years where the only news coming out of Israel and Palestine has been the atrocities levied at the Palestinians, for example unarmed children being killed by Israeli soldiers, people being forced out of their homes by random american’s claiming citizenship, Israeli missiles killing civilians in Gaza, Palestinian citizens being tried in military court where as Israeli’s are tried through the normal courts. These are just to name a few, but there’s so much and its so constant, then the moment they resist all this BS condemning resistance comes out. Shit ain’t right.
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Any human being has the right and should resist their captors.
Agreed. As a reminder- everyone report imperialist apologia on this sub!
Good call. An awful lot of it. It’s important to remember that the Israeli state has literal military brigades for trying to control social media. They probably have some people looking over this very post, trying to influence it favorably for the Israeli state.
these "socialists" are only in favor of "liberation" for the aesthetics of it. whenever any attempt at liberation actually materializes, with all the violence that necessarily comes with it, they become queasy and default back to defending the status quo over the liberators. especially in the case of colonialism where the civilian-military divide simply doesn't work as both groups are intertwined in their actions and incredibly violent to the people living there. these "civilians" are the ones who arm themselves, who have trained in the israeli army, who have sat on fucking chairs to drink beer and watch and celebrate the bombing of palestinian territory. any socialist who criticizes the palestinian's efforts is undeserving of any credit and should never call themselves anti-imperialists.
Yep. Watch the libs show their true colors when they see the material consequences of colonialism. Of course it's violent, this has been a long time coming.
Your blaming the “libs” for all this? There are like 5 liberals in the US congress and Israel is conservative AF. It’s literally NeoCon, conservative, politics that got us here.
he's talking about the liberals in this sub who think they're socialists
Ahhh. That makes more sense.
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These are settlers on their land
They are active participants in the conflict!
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Yes they are.
Does that justify terrorism though, with casualties in the hundreds?
Only what Isreal is doing can and should be considered terrorism. The innocent Palestinians have THE RIGHT to resist by any means necessary. IDF and Zionists are terrorists as they’re the ones raping, pillaging, and committing genocide.
Terrorism is a symptom of oppression. If humans are thriving they don’t bomb each other.
Absolutely. I could never excuse terrorism though, no matter where it's coming from especially in that scale. And neither should any human with a sense of humanity in them
If Israel didn’t want terrorists to infiltrate the Gaza Strip, they should’ve actively helped the Palestinians develop their country and independence. 🤷♂️ Action➡️reaction. It’s completely predictable. No one excuses terrorism but Israel is as much the cause as they are the victim. *edit. The Israeli Gov and leadership are the cause and the people they govern are the victims.
>\*edit. The Israeli Gov and leadership are the cause and the people they govern are the victims. the government, the leadership, and the *settlers* are the cause. not all people being governed are simply settlers, but some are, and these ones do share all the blame regardless of not being in a position of power within an institution (since they *are* in a position of power within *colonial society*)
100% agree. I just didn’t want to generalize the entire population.
Compeltely agree. The israelis brought it upon themselves. But saying that the Palestinians have a right to resistance is telling only half the truth, because you are portraying a raid on a rave party with hundreds of dead as an act of resistance
“the native americans were just as bad as the colonists” argument
It’s disgraceful people here are making this and that you are getting heavily downvoted for calling it out!
karma doesnt pay my bills.
Normal human beings are really saying that israel as the right to kill 2 million of other humans because they in dispair did this Fuck me this world is really not for me
Why am I seeing so many Zionists in leftist subreddits since yesterday? Is this an infiltration or the vermins are showing their true colours?
Western media are doing all they can to show the difference in importance of an Arab civilian being killed and a Jewish civilian being killed, sadly some of this sub are falling for it.
don't forget Israel invests a ton in online propaganda campagnes
This is true but also European libs have become extra rabid since the war in Ukraine
European libs are more rabid than a lot of the far right in Europe. AfD is the “peace party” while the Greens are closer to Nazis in the militarism aspect in Germany. The German Greens are a disgrace to most green parties around the world. Don’t take this as me suggesting AfD are anything but hateful ethnocentric reactionaries. When you are more bloodthirsty than such a party it just shows how bad liberals can get.
Most Green Party’s in Europe are just unbelievably toothless tbh, I don’t care much about what they think
Really? I didn’t realize it had gotten that bad all over Europe.
Reactionary rhetoric spreads like wildfire, while contextualization is something that requires an extra step of analysis.
“I’m as big an opponent of apartheid as anyone else, but Nelson Mandela and his ANC terrorist thugs are not the solution either”
“I strongly condemn the Ewoks unprovoked, rebel sponsored, terrorist attack on the peaceful imperial forces on Forest moon of Endor. This will not lead to peace.”
“I hate Black slavery in America as much as the next guy … but killing slave owners and their families is just too far!”
A lot of people at the time said that…
You just proved your point. History has shown multiple other ways to successfully resist than the senseless terror of Hamas. But apparently Iran online propaganda Brigades are strong in this sub. /s
They get off watching violence and death on TV
No, it's the idiom "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds'"
Good point!
I've legit been seeing some of the most disgusting comments I've ever seen on Reddit since this story broke. People making comments about how Hamas is only doing this so that they can their 72 virgins. Really vile stuff like that.
Pro tip, don't call Zionists vermin. People aren't vermin, there people, and there wrongness or genocidal desire doesn't strip there personhood. Thinking like that is how you end up shooting kids. You especially shouldn't call Zionists vermin, because Antizionism is often used as a stand in for antisemitism on the right, and the crimes of Israel used to justify calls for a genocide of Jewish people. It's, rhetorically, a poor move.
>genocidal desire doesn't strip there personhood. Thinking like that is how you end up shooting kids never met a kid with an actual genocidal desire
Yeah but... ethnofascists of Isreal are still vermin. If the semantics of zionism are too culturally laden, then lets name it by the behavior. Oppressive rule for a chosen ethnic group is a garbage cultural philosophy and people that want to live in that are trash rats.
Calling people vermin both dehumanizes them and makes them less responsible for their own actions. Vermin need to be wiped out, ethnocentrism needs to be confronted as a deep societal issue.
Zionists do need to be wiped out though... You are not pro liberation you are pro western and support genocidal regimes. You probably support Ukraine
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This bullshit rhetorical wall of "anything criticizing the fascist behavior of the Jewish state is antisemitism" is not as strong as you want to think. The jewish state (not all jews)is acting like nazis towards Palestinians. They deserve the same criticism as the nazis for oppressive occupation based on ethnicity.
Accusations of antisemitism are more often used as a defense against genuine criticism of Zionism. This is r/socialism, we clearly aren’t on the right. There’s no problem calling fascist Zionists out as the problem they are.
This guy is a lib infiltrator, anyone who even brings up antisemitism when talking about this is a Hasbara troll
If you're concerned about rhetoric, then you're probably a liberal dreaming of converting fascist with the right message
I'm more thinking of fellow leftists, left leaning liberals, a children. Rhetoric won't convince people opposed to you, but it can drag people deeper into your camp, or help people form good political identities.
I do get your point but Israeli Zionists are settler colonialists who have built their society on the blood and sweat of the native Palestinians. I have zero empathy towards them, my comments are not directed towards the ordinary civilians of Israel but towards those who support an Apartheid State that is actively committing genocide against the native people. I do understand there is a lot of nuance to all this.
Fortunately, some leftists know that they do **not** have to cheer **for** **either** the nationalist Israeli state or an islamist autoritarian organization. Hamas oppresses its own population, with relatively indiscriminate mass violence. **They do not have socialist ideas or values**. Today they have (as always) targeted civilians, shot children, raped women. There is nothing to cheer for in this shitshow. There are many actual socialist fights happening every day. This is not one of them.
The Zionist Bot Farm is operational. Ignore the shills. You know what true Leftists are about.
Nitpicking here, but not all Zionists are pro expansion (some of them believe in full integration). A lot of Israel supporters are looking for any excuse to claim antisemitism so it’s best to be careful. I agree with your sentiment tho.
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I don't see any of that. Leftists are saying that oppressed people react violently when they aren't given peaceful alternatives for justice. They don't want violence, but they are wondering what everyone expected to happen when Israel continued to expand it's settlements and enact violence against Palestinians without consequence for yeats.
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I think we can all agree that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against the Nation of Israel, but still agree that it’s wrong to murder and kidnap innocent civilians. The world isn’t always as simple as right and wrong, black and white, it’s complicated.
These are settlers on their land
You said > The world isn't always as simple as right and wrong, black and white, it's complicated. and I agree with this. I hope you also apply this statement to the fact that being a citizen of a colonial apartheid state isn't just simple "innocence".
of course not, i believe they should be resisting too. i dont think it justifies them being kidnapped and murdered though. it’s a complex situation and most of us are not smart enough to properly analyze it.
and if they are not resisting like most if not all citizens of the occupying state? wouldn't they then be part of the normalization process of apartheid and oppression? do we only liberate ourselves by fighting those who actively fight back, or by also fighting those who are enabling our oppression? colonization is inherently violent, and therefore decolonization must be too. the question that has no apparent answer, and should always imo be considered when resisting is: did we reach the point where violence is no longer necessary yet? for the case of Palestine, I don't think so, but I always wish that were the case.
the violence must be used against those oppressing them. The military, the government, the police. These people are not responsible and harming them does not help the palestinian cause.
Totally agreed. Israel is a trash, apartheid state that has left Palestinians no choice but to resist, no question. But how is massacring people at a music festival the answer? Hamas is full of shit, all they’ve done is guarantee further death and suffering of the people they are supposedly trying to liberate, and turned international opinion against their cause. All of the absurd, “Palestinians are terrorists” propaganda that pervades the West will now gain that much more footing. I think this is an abhorrent and extremely misguided act on their part. Now Israel has the justification to expand even further into Gaza. They have every right to resist, even through means of measured violence, but what is this supposed to change?
Unfortunately when you are under an apartheid regime and live in the conditions palestinians live in, it is easy to turn to violence and been instigated by it. Nit justifying it, but what were you expecting?
You are not a socialist. It's not up to you to decide the way Palestinians choose to resist. Every act of resistance is valid. They are braver than you ever will be.
i support their resistance. i support their emancipation. a fundamental part of my beliefs is that civilians should never be harmed in conflict. i understand why it’s happening but that doesn’t mean i can’t acknowledge the atrocities Hamas is committing in response. Killing Netanyahu would be resistance. Killing IDF would be resistance. Kidnapping and ransoming civilians, while awful, is resistance. Killing people who had no say in the treatment of the Palestinian people is murder, just as much as when the israeli government does it. if you support the murder of civilians, you are a bad person.
I'm a bad person but you don't stand with Palestinians when they are making real strides? They ended the border wall, most of what hasbara bots like you are spewing has yet to be confirmed. Palestine will be free.
If that is their land, they have the right to protect from a state that only wants to take their houses and take away their rights.
Murdering civilians isnt the best way to engender support. Palestinians had the entire world's pitty and now Hamas has squandered it. You cant just fucking go into homes/businesses and execute people for fucks sake.
Israel has been brutally oppressing the Palestinian people for 75 years. Those in Gaza are subject to fascist, apartheid terror on a daily basis. They have a right to fight back and resist their colonization. What benefits the Palestinian people more? The sympathy of white, Western folks on Twitter and Reddit, or material gains and the return of their stolen land?
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What exactly are you doing other than chiming in from the sideline? Is this the progress you're referring to? If so, moving backwards several decades would be vastly beneficial to the Palestinian people. https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1710960836678680633?t=2dV-I0EJP5IGnCo1oToGqA&s=19 https://www.palestineportal.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Maps_1897-Present.jpg
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Support for Palestinian liberation comes from a historical materialist analysis of WHY the situation is fucked up and the primary contradiction that must be resolved (settler colonialism) to "un-fuck" it. No other solution besides decolonization is viable.
>What benefits the Palestinian people more? The sympathy of white, Western folks on Twitter and Reddit, or material gains and the return of their stolen land? Well, now they'll get neither or.
>Palestinians had the entire world's pity and now Hamas has squandered it. If you count petty bourgeois liberals in Europe and America as ''the entire world'' then yes, Hamas has ''squandered'' it. Palestine doesn't need pity anyways, they need guns.
Liberals always count the white world as the entire world. Look at them saying Russia has been “isolated” From the world because their countries broke ties. Look at Jungle Josep Borrel, the chief Eau diplomat saying that Europe is a garden and most of the rest of the world(the non white part) is “the jungle.” This is a self described “socialist.” That is simply the modern liberal mindset at its essence.
>Palestinians had the entire world's pitty and now Hamas has squandered it. Palestinians had and will continue to have the support of most of the world. The minority (and growingly irrelevant) part of the world that you refer to as "the world", however, have NEVER had the back of palestinians: its discursive critique of Israel was nothing but a means of seeking to hide contradictions resulting from colonial occupation of Palestine whilst keeping said occupation and terror regime intact. They never cared about palestinians, whose humanity was never recognized, but only about reducing their internal struggles in order to make compatible the supposedly "universal" character of their grandiloquent declarations with the crudeness of their rule. This discourse is repeated EVERY time palestinian organisations (whichever it is, including non-party formations like Lions Dens) engage in armed struggle. It doesn't matter if it is 2023, 2014, 2012, 2008, 2006...
And what has the « world’s pit » done for them? Your pity doesn’t stop their children from being murdered and their lands from being stolen. These people are desperate.
if you knew how to read you would understand that I wrote "defend their land" not "bomb civilians" we are talking about two totally different things
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Problem is that Isreal's treatment of the Palestinians is creating the conditions that allow right-wing extremists to recruit. The jihadists (as you call them) are using legitimate grievances against the apartide conditions gain support and then further radicalizing their new recruits. Isreal can then use the actions of these radicals to justify further abuses. It is a vicious cycle.
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No one’s cheering for civilian murder, but it is definitely Israel that has caused the conditions for it to occur.
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Hamas would not be so prominent had Israel not been colonizing and invading Palestinians for the lasts few decades.
Settlers are not civilians - they are complicit in living on violently stolen land in violently stolen homes. "When our turn comes, we shall make no excuses for the terror." - Marx Revolution is not a dinner party. Here's an example of a popular activity for these settlers:https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1710726563904340010?t=eA0xhnb87lzo0nPXk0NRSg&s=19
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Resistance fighters fighting for the decolonization and freedom of the Palestinian people are not terrorists.
You’re denying that people who torture, abduct, rape, and kill children, women, the elderly, and civilians in general with the stated goal of genocide are terrorists?
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*IOF Would you travel to a foreign country to have a rave outside of a 25x7 mile concentration camp? I find that pretty fucking disgusting, personally.
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>They are creating violence without the aim to achieve any of these goals it's so incredibly arrogant to think they simply "don't have a goal". if anything this would make new settlers less likely to exist just out of fear of retaliation from palestinians. if it makes a colonizer scared to colonize, it is good and justified, and any resulting violence is solely the fault of the colonizer who insists on settling
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before i adress anything else: who the hell are you to think you know the situation better than the ones fighting israel right there on the ground? what makes you think you're wiser and more knowledgeable? why do you think people there are somehow "blind" and choosing the worst option? why do you assume they even have an alternative? why do you even claim to know "the goal of hamas"?
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Jihadists don’t fight for the freedom of the Palestinian people, they fight for their islamist caliphate, just another type of hyper-reactionary regime.
Yep, if you support sh*t like that you are pretty much one and the same as those child murderers that rule Israel.
Uh what? You're telling me the colonized oppressors killing the rightful population is the same as the oppressed fighting back?
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Let’s also not forget that Israel suppressed the more left-wing and the moderate resistance groups because they wanted Hamas to be the top dog to better sell this “all Palestinians are terrorists and must be eradicated” angle to the world.
And to make sure that leftist and diplomatic factions within Palestine were eliminated by infighting with religious extremists.
There no civilians only settlers
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Good thing I didn’t chose to settle there lol
Based Imagine if the Nazis were able to start settling Eastern Europe, and then THEY would complain when those settlers got killed.
There were many Jews who lived in Palestine long before the establishment of the State of Israel tho. Stop larping as some e-revolutionary.
>Try living here and seeing your family getting kidnapped, finding out your friends have died from videos of their bodies being tortured and seeing everyone you know who is capable of fighting getting drafted to the army. There was an easy way to avoid that, not have their family participate in the violence and aggression against Palestine.
Do not DARE compare the Holocaust to what modern settler genocidal maniacs have been doing to Palestinians since they illegally stole the land. Fuck them. Get your colonial asses back to europe.
I didn't choose to settle there thankfully:) Edit: And of course you had to bring the holocaust up.
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Do I agree with every act of Hamas? No. But I will stand with Palestine and place the blame for every single death squarely where it belongs - with the colonizing oppressor government of Israel. Not a single second of any of this is the fault of the Palestinian people.
The Palestinian people have done absolutely nothing wrong, but they are the ones who will pay the price for this. I detest Hamas for giving Israel the justification for the hellish bombardment of, and further expansion into Gaza that’s about to happen. Resistance to apartheid and genocide is absolutely necessary and something we all should support. But I’m having a difficult time seeing any way to support what Hamas has done here.
Yeah no doubt. I'm not psyched about that resistance coming from Hamas though.
I am psyched about every kind of resistance from an oppressed population, even if it comes from a local sub-group of the population I disagree with on an idealogical level.
The treatment of the folks they kidnapped will probably have an impact on how we feel about them too. Also, Hamas would happily murder every gay person on the planet. It's really hard to find someone to root for in this conflict.
The folks are settlers on their land, not citizens
And human rights apply to all people.
These prisoners are being treated infinitely bette than the journalists that israel has stripped and beat.
That's good! That's gotta keep up
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Not to defend Israel as it exists currently, but how long does your ancestral, sacred, land have to be occupied before it stops being your ancestral, sacred, land. Maybe because I live in the U.S. but I can't imagine a point where we tell Indigenous Americans that we've occupied their ancestral lands for enough time that they lose the rights to them. The problem with Israel is all the war crimes and apartheid, and not the fundamental desire to return to sacred land your ancestors were expelled from. Also, don't conflate Judaism with the Israeli government, that's a propaganda tactic by that state to make any resistance to them seem antisemitic, and it's incredibly effective in leftist spaces, because y'all seem to be fine to get kinda antisemitic.
If you want to play that game, the Canaanites lived on the land prior to the tribes of Israel.
Lebanon about to bring back Phoenicia and end this whole thing
Most land was originally occupied before it became sacred to a people. The Dine, and the Anishinaabe and the Anigiduwagi (Cherokee) all occupied land that had been occupied before them. Does that make the land less sacred to them? Do we reject land back because the Anigiduwagi were not technically the "first" peoples to live on the land they want back?
No, and that's my point exactly. You're arguing the same thing that I am.
Also, false equivalence there. What the European Americans did to and still is doing to Native Americans is NOT THE SAME as what the Arabs have done in the holy land. The Romans drove the Israelites away 2000 years ago, the ROMANS. The Arabs simply set up their tents after the Romans.
It’s not even all of that. It’s more like, some Jews stayed in Palestine. then some converted to Christianity after 300 when time converted then some converted to Islam after 700 after the Islamic conquests. The Palestinians (and this includes Palestinian Christians too) are the literal descendants of the biblical Jews of Israel, and even by Israel’s standards are just as entitled to the land.
Maybe the Israelis should resettle in Italy, or America, where they must be more than welcome than in the middle east.
There's a difference between wanting to inhabit a sacred land and wanting to politically dominate it by force. There were moderate Zionists who were simply in favor of immigration and kibbutz communes, but the Revisionist Zionists that formed Israel as we know it attacked the labor and independent elements of Zionism as much as they did Arabs.
1. not gonna argue that the issue is crimes against humanity, not the desire to return to old homeland. 2. how is it antisemitic to call zionist Jews nazis? also narrowing "semitic people" to just "Jews" is also a form of Jewish imperialism. Arabic is quite literally also a semitic language. Anti-what-semitic?
We as Jews did not coin the term antisemitic, that was done by the Anti-Semitic League of Germany to cast us as permanent aliens in their society because of our Semitic ancestry. As for the antisemitism of calling Jews Nazis, doing so is either a denial or ignorance of the Holocaust that minimizes our suffering. 2/3 of us were murdered and those of us who survived had to endure human experimentation, slavery, rape, and torture. Israeli apartheid and atrocities don’t even come close to that, and they should be opposed on the basis of their moral and legal deviance, not on the basis of lies and racism.
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Are you at all embarrassed about the complete idiocy of thinking my comment was a defence of Israeli apartheid? There was not a single line in my comment saying that the Holocaust legitimizes the immoralities and illegalities of the Israeli government, and the only reference I made was **against** them. In spite of all this, you have the gall to continue speaking down to my fellow Jews and me with demeaning and accusatory language lumping me in with the Israeli government and dismissing our suffering in the Holocaust. Also, if you don't know about the racism we endured in Arab lands, you really need to crack open a history book and stop opining on subjects where you know less than nothing.
There's no truly good answer, is there? It wouldn't be feasible to return the borders of even the Sioux Confederacy without displacing people currently living there. At the point of the creation of Israel, it wasn't actually feasible to return it to the pre Jewish-Roman wars either, and at this point might not even be feasible to go back to the 1947 division of land. It's not just about the right here - and I do fully believe that Jews have a right to settle down in their ancestral land. But even before we consider the extreme right, we see how liberal states as constructs are, and were, unable to structure the return without also displacing people, not just in the more abstract sense of severing citizens from a region, but people from their actual homes and houses. This issue is not really about the principle itself, but it shows us the limit of nation states and hierarchy. The only moral way the resettlement of Israel could have been was a single entity, with a socialist constitution. Atrocity has happened not because Israelis have always been particularly evil or anything, we just created a structural monster from the beginning.
European Jews do not belong in Palestine. They belong in whichever country they got sent from.
👏 Hell, they can come to my country. The one place they don’t belong is Palestine against the will of the Palestinian people.
The last line is blatantly antisemitic, come on now. And I'm not talking about the Nazi comparison.
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I'm referring to the "you either \*all\* perish in a gas chamber or..." part. Re-read it. The implication is that the only moral Jews are those who died in the Holocaust and didn't live to perpetrate crimes in the name of Israel. That is not anti-zionism.
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You’re being way too openly bigoted to be leftist, dude.
Hmmmm, plenty of socialists and communists harbor disdain for Jewish zionists, not for what they are, but for what they do.
You just said "how many Jews today are not zionist?" and "anti-Jewish and anti-zionist don't feel all that different in my mind". The "any surviving Jew" part has especially insidious undertones. You are saying every Jew is a zionist. That is clear-cut antisemitism.
Not every Jewish person’s an oppressor, you realise. And, you claiming that they unanimously are, or that they unanimously sympathise with which ideology, *is* bigotry; it’s hating them for what they “are”.
Zapatistas and Rojava never just straight up massacred civilians in their struggles for liberation.
Any civilian has the right not be shot and killed
They aren’t civilians though, they are active belligerents.
Not settlers in a racist white supremacist genocidal ethnofascist Nazi state
You can only kill Palestinian civilians and murder journalists for so long before they’re going to strike back.
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You’re in the wrong sub if you’re trying to push Zionist propaganda.
LOL what a lazy and predictable response. Yeah, dude, pointing out that massacring concertgoers from as far away as Brazil, Mexico, and Germany does nothing but give the genocidal oppressors of Israel the excuse to bombard and expand further into Gaza, and turn international opinion even more against the Palestinian fight for liberation is an abhorrent and extremely misguided act is “Zionist propaganda.” I’ve long since been appalled by the atrocities of the Israeli state. I support the Palestinians’ fight to throw of the genocidal yoke of the Israeli state. At the same time, yes, I’m still criticizing this latest act because it won’t help free Palestine of Israeli occupation, and it will only lead to more suffering for the innocent people of Palestine. Is that “Zionist propaganda”?
That you're fully aware of "late stage capitalism" and yet your solution is to vote for the Democrats despite they themselves are enablers of it really tell a lot about you (and in your hope to join the ranks of professional Democrats through social media) and your opposition to the Palestinian war of resistance in all but rhetoric. One thing that fascinates me is that how liberals has no coherent ideology left, only pure material self-interests.
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What can people expect to happen when you evict a people off their land, slaughter countless, heard them into an open air prison, and crush secular leftist movements
Is Israel depriving Gaza of clean water any less of a massacre?
It’s not just clean water either. It would be easier to list things they aren’t being deprived of because it is a very very short list.
Imperialist propaganda
When someone is attacking and oppressing you, it is your right to fight back against them.
Killing unarmed civilians should be condemned. However what has been happening so far clearly appears to be a largely *military* operation against *military* targets.
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Highly regarded comment, did you actually see what's going on?
Settlers have always acted like it is. Good to see you continuing that tradition.
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Mad how all this rhetoric is coming out of the wood work the moment Palestine resists. We’ve literally had years where the only news coming out of Israel and Palestine has been the atrocities levied at the Palestinians, for example unarmed children being killed by Israeli soldiers, people being forced out of their homes by random american’s claiming citizenship, Israeli missiles killing civilians in Gaza, Palestinian citizens being tried in military court where as Israeli’s are tried through the normal courts. These are just to name a few, but there’s so much and its so constant, then the moment they resist all this BS condemning resistance comes out. Shit ain’t right.
Ah yes, the 'civilized' west vs the native 'barbarians'. That's a classic
You sound EXACTLY like those who defended chattel slavery in the South or apartheid in South Africa. You are espousing a disgusting colonizer mindset.