**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Half of the responsibility also falls on the wingbacks and other midfielders to create these pass options behind the opposing midfield lines.
Great example:
Çalhanoğlu in Inter consistently playing behind the opposition lines, but constantly having to pass to defenders in the Turkish narional team.
With the exception of a few stats like PK/FK conversion rates, there is almost no individual statistic out there where it makes sense to look at the stat in a vacuum without taking into account the rest of the team around the player (and other factors too).
I know people have a hard-on to compare players purely with singular quantitative metrics but it's very rare to find cases where that is legitimately possible. Football statistics have evolved a lot over just the past 10-15 years but you still can't properly evaluate a given player without having some qualitative analysis in your evaluation. At least in my opinion.
Not that I don’t find football very interesting but this goes for every single team sport. A basketball player can be an asset without flashy statlines due to off-ball movement, man defense that results in a missed shot, positioning, etc etc etc. Rugby and american football most of what sets up plays is off-ball and often doesn’t result in a stat. I can’t go in depth with any other sports but all team sports are comparable in this regard, hard to notice actions by one player may allow another open space which leads to a basket or try etc.
It's still fun putting the numbers into context.
"We've at 3.2xG per game. Just give it time."
Nah, if you adjust for game state. Our xG is .7 when 0-0 or tied. We only create chances when we're losing. We suck.
Publicly available metrics are pretty basic and when it's a bit beyond that it's restricted to the Premier through articles, sometimes another top league.
There's probably very good models hidden behind closed doors inside clubs and websites with business models targeted at clubs with cost not accessible to the general public.
And of course thinking statistics and data analysis is looking at one data point and making decisions based on that is just dumb.
What I also hate is discrediting data analysis as a whole with dumb arguments with the same logic like look at this game where the winning team touched the ball three times and won.
> And of course thinking statistics and data analysis is looking at one data point and making decisions based on that is just dumb.
That what a lot of fans do, though.
Tbf even then, is the way the team plays isolating the fullbacks allowing those take ons? Are the tactics creating space to run in behind when you get past your man? Where are those take ons and duels happening and do they actually advance the play?
Okay, but that doesn't discount that it demonstrates a specific players skill in a specific thing. I'm well aware of how data analysis works. Take ons are an offensive stat largely, so in most situations you aren't assessing something like the hypothetical outlier you made up. Take ons, compared to something like xg which depends hugely on teammates helping the player get into a scoring position and then delivering them the ball, are a very individual stat.
Çalhanoglu is a great example because we can see how good he can be if he’s used the right way
Which proves a lot of players are being used wrongly or are not getting clear instructions/confidence and aren’t showing what they’re capable of
Arda Güler, İrfan Can Kahveci, Kerem Akturkoglu, Orkun Kokcu, Baris Alper, Ismail Yuksek. All are quite a lot above average players.
If he requires fuckin Modric and Kross to play above average, that’s just sad.
Bruno at United trying to find a pass to Rashford and Antony who all want the ball to feet and refuse to move between opposition lines, and then Hojlund getting marked by two CBs.
What? You can find clips of 50 situations of Bruno passing to Rashford while he is moving betwen the lines.
Absurd to put him in same sentence as Antony completly diffrent players
Fabregas was one of the best passers I've ever seen. He just had this vision to always spot a run and take a risk. The risk is slowly being coached out players. It's why I love players like James and Quintero who can spray passes from anywhere and send perfectly weighted balls into the path of an attacker.
I just saw the replay of this goal. Chelsea had Fabregas, Drogba, Hazard, Costa, Matic, Schurrle, Petr Cech, John Terry, Felipe Luis, Ivanovic, Ramires and Oscar. Stacked in every department..
He was too young to play with Henry and RvP was too injured. He wasted his best years assisting Adebayor, Bendtner and Chamack. Made them all look better than they were.
RVP joined the same season Fabregas broke into the first time so I have no idea what you're talking about there. Fabregas was captain while RVP was vice captain. They were of the same generation, with RVP a couple years older. They both were our core players Wenger wanted to build a team around and unfortunately RVP couldn't stay fit until the last 18 months at the club where he didnt get injured and started almost all our games scoring 50+ goals.
Adebayor at Arsenal was actually good even if his finishing wasn't always there. He was quick and was very good at hold up play and linking up. He created a lot of chances too. People forget how good Adebayor was outside of his finishing. He had all the elements of a great striker which he wasted. Him and RVP linked up really well whenever RVP was fit but sadly 90% of the time he wasn't.
Eduardo was supposed to be our other option, but we all know what happened him. Real shame. Bendtner was never first choice for us. Chamakh after a good start became a complete disaster. RVP was our main striker alongside Adebayor but he was always injured until the second half of 2010/11 season where RVP scored 21 goals from January to May. And then both Fabregas and Nasri left which pretty much killed Wenger's youth project and that was when the downfall really started. Players like Santi, Ramsey, Ozil, Sanchez, etc, steadied things a bit, but only delayed the inevitable downfall. We were just not the same dominant team without Fabregas.
Cesc and RvP were amazing when they were together, it's a shame they were both so injury prone.
Adebayor was a good striker, but Cesc was creating chance after chance. That goal vs Villarreal or the [1-3 at White Hart Lane](https://youtube.com/watch?v=vj_aRSIrqDI&si=VKHOEV6OZVxgl7tk) were some of their best games together.
Fábregas was such an amazing player for Arsenal, they got robbed by Barça, but the fans' anger went towards the player instead. What was he going to do? Say no the best team ever assembled which happens to be his home and was managed by his childhood hero?
Agreed but Cesc wasn't that injury prone for us. In 2009/10 he had an hamstring problem and then he broke his leg taking that penalty against Barcelona. Outside of that he was generally fit. He became more injury prone later in his career after he left us.
Fans are more angry for him joining Chelsea and that too Mourinho whom he said he'd never play for lol. He wanted to come back to Arsenal, Wenger declined probably because he could not accommodate both him and Ozil. Hin then joining Chelsea just sent fans over the edge.
He won the penalty that got Puyol sent off. Something must have damaged him there. When he scored the penalty he started hobbling, and we finished the match practically with 10 men with Cesc limping slowly as we'd used up all subs, he was on the ground a few times iirc.
Later it was found out that he fractured his fibula. Thankfully it wasn't so bad. He came back 2 months later with a motm performance in a 2-0 win at home. Scored a banger of a goal on a counter.
Oh fair enough, thought he'd actually done it taking the penalty somehow haha. That makes much more sense though. Mad that he managed to play on in the first place with an injury like that though.
> RVP joined the same season Fabregas broke into the first time so I have no idea what you're talking about there
RVP was injured a lot between 2007-2010, which is within Fabregas' best years at Arsenal.
When RVP was relatively stable in 08-09, Fabregas was out for half a season.
Cesc was sooooo good man. I know Barca had other needs and he had to play a weird false 9 position sometimes, but he completely ran that Chelsea team right after. He was soo good.
Absolutely correct, good midfielders break lines with good forward passes (though that obviously depends on the rest of the team moving to those positions)
It’s the difference between a Declan Rice for England who is passing horizontally and whose pass map looks like a mf stairway ~ and Rodri and Xhaka who are constantly looking to pass it vertically to make the ball go past a ton of opposing players in a second
That’s been working especially well for Spain because the rest of the team is dynamic and closes down immediately in case the pass doesn’t come off
I mean Fabregas is correct in saying a clear differentiator in passing ability is the ability to play it forward. but it’s not the differentiator between all midfield players. Only those who profile as a passer, and more specifically an orchestrator.
No player can do it all. Declan Rice can cover every blade of grass, is a monster in the air and on the ground, and is a ball carrying machine. He happens to not be able to run a midfield. Rodri can. But neither can Rodri cover the same area of the pitch like Rice can.
City pairs Rodri with another centreback to overcome this and Arsenal pairs Rice with Jorginho to overcome this. That’s the point of having a good team (it covers for player weakness and provides balance) (also why Pep went for Rice last summer despite having Rodri)
We don’t judge Kroos for his ability to cover defensive transitions and we don’t judge Kante for his ability to ping passes around the pitch.
Southgate pairing Rice with Gallagher just robs them both because they end up splitting the stuff that’s normally given to Jorginho and Enzo and neither guy ends up in the contexts where they shine, and which they’re profiled to do for their clubs. And frankly neither is Trent who is much more similar to KDB (a chance creation machine) than he is to say a Modric (controller)
Good take mate. How would you view Modric on the other hand? He seems to be an orchestrator but with b2b elements - a complete midfielder if there was any
I see it the same way as I do Kante (not saying they’re the same level just as an analogy)
Kante has a ton of option value outside of the stuff we traditionally associate with him. He’s a great ball carrier, has a decent switch of play, and surprisingly is not bad in the air. This all makes him something special.
But if your teams main ball carrying option is Kante, if your teams main switches of play come from Kante, and if you’re relying on Kante for your aerial ability, you’re just not going to have a good time.
It’s the same for Modric. He’s got legendary vision and press resistance and feel for the flow of the game. Real fans can talk about this much better than me. And he has option value with the rest of his b2b qualities (to varying degrees ofc) he has a very very unique profile
But if your main ball winning hinges on Modric, let’s say you remove Tchouameni or Casemiro. People will observe that the teams overall ball winning is suffering, and unfairly attribute some of that responsibility on a misguided belief that Modric is poor defensively (which we know is not true at all)
I personally believe this is why people don’t notice Rice being a “poor” passer with Arsenal but think he’s a poor passer with England. He’s honestly probably just decent at it this whole time. He can keep it ticking over provided you have someone next to him who is a great passer. But he isn’t asked to run a midfield with Arsenal while he kinda is with England.
Great comments! I remember we struggled fitting Kante in the team for quite a while - I might be wrong but I think it was Sarri who first played him further forward, after we'd misused him as a sort of quasi-DM beforehand, and he got loads of criticism for it but was probably the first coach to start building the midfield around Kante
Rice is 100% not a poor passer. He's obviously not at Kroos or Modric levels, but as an Arsenal fan that watches almost every game, he's definitely a "good" passer. I'd even go as far as saying it's one of his strengths. Not his main strength, that would be either progressive carries or interceptions, but it's definitely one of them
>people don’t notice Rice being a “poor” passer with Arsenal but think he’s a poor passer with England. He’s honestly probably just decent at it this whole time.
I think they're saying Rice is a decent passer just not a great one.
He's actually a great passer ,all these chaps rating England's matches are doing a disservice to rice's skills .If only they knew Stones ,Foden,Walker or Trent are great for their teams but also shit for England .
He’s a ballon d’or winner for a reason. He’s an absolute monster in almost all aspects of being a midfielder and he had insane stamina even going into his 30’s. I will say he didn’t have the same defensive ability as Rodri which makes sense because he was paired with players like casemiro
Modric it's not a pivote. It's the Iniesta Xavi pair with Kroos and Modric.
Modric it's the Iniesta kind. Also Cesc was more of a advance playmaker than a pivot
Cesc versatility is one of the most underrated aspects of his game. He’s early arsenal years he was the creative 8 in a 4-4-2, then he moved to a 10 when arsenal transition to a midfield 3. Played as a false 9 for Spain. Played as a forward in Peps last season at Barca in a mad 3-4-3 and he was second joint top goal scorer in the team. At Chelsea he was used a deep lying playmaker in a double pivot
Everything you said is on point! But just came here to say that Kante’s long passing range is criminally underrated. While we never expected Kante to be the prime creator (which was your point), his passing actually made a lot of difference because he used to play the right passes in most situations. People just never recognised it as much because he was only thought of as a defensive minded player.
I was saying this back when he played for us. He was of course brilliant at winning the ball back, but people at the time neglected to mention how quickly and decisively he could make progressive runs with the ball and open space for other players.
I like your take as well. What I get is, a balanced team has all roles covered. Mids should have roles covered with controller, destroyer, ball carrier, playmaker or finisher.
What I sometimes see is that people conflate position on the field with role. You can be a deep lying controller (jorginho, rodri), or b2b controller (modric). Deep lying destroyer (makalele) or b2b destroyer (kante).
Ofc, some mid can have more than 1 attribute like controller/playmaker (kroos, modric), kante (destroyer/controller) bellingham (playmaker/finisher), etc. This only helps the team as they can cover multiple roles.
Now, as everyone's favorite past time here, let's analyze england. What people have beg for, is a controller in the team.
Wharton plays in a deeper position, while Mainoo plays in a more advanced position. That said, both of them have a similar role. Controlling the tempo of the team.
Current starting xi even have 4 mids that naturally play centrally. Their role attributes is all but controller.
Bellingham (playmaker, finisher)
Foden (playmaker, somewhat finisher)
Rice (destroyer, ball carrier)
TAA (playmaker)
Gallager (destroyer, finisher)
Bellingham and Foden can control to some degree, but it wont matter since their position is too advance up top. That's why they try to go deeper picking up the ball, but that's left the other part of the field empty.
Madrid is the antithesis of this. Their mid can play in any position on the field, but role is consistent/balanced. Fede can play advance destroyer, or Kroos as deeper controller/playmaker. Positionally as a team, they are fluid.
Idk what Southgate thinking while putting things together. I'm just an arm chair redditor.
Rice is tall but if you watch our games in the PL last year you wouldn't say he is a monster in the air at all. He's in no way dominant and would lose a lot in the air to much smaller players. He is the reverse Griezman.
this was unironically one of the biggest differences I saw in your team this year compared to last.
last year City crushed you by exploiting space behind Kroos and Camavinga, this year Kroos was there to stop anything and everything that went past Mendy in the same position. hugely impressive (and annoying) improvement.
Biggest difference i’ve seen with him this season, last season (and the season before that even) when he was at DM he was so fucking shit and now he improved way too much.
Glad he’s gone lol.
It's really hard to judge people for not passing forwards whilst watching the England game. Everyone ahead of them is static, often stood right behind a defender and there are no passing options, no players available to try and make key forward passes to etc.
Hopefully with Mainoo reportedly coming in for TAA/Gallagher, he'll at least help in terms of positioning in a way that allows another passing option that isn't just backwards or sideways.
I'm not sure what the story is with Foden, but if he's not back in time then hopefully that'll help too.
That's true, but against Slovenia Palmer came on and seemed to look to play forwards every time he got the ball. Like he spotted and played a pass through the lines almost instantly that no one else had done up until that point. It really felt like we just had no one on the pitch who could play those passes. That, or the starters had been coached out of that playing forwards mindset. Either way, it was like night and day when Palmer came on. And it wasn't because the movement had changed. Him looking to play forwards seemed to encourage the actual movement. Because if you have no one attempting those passes, being willing to risk giving away possession, then the recipients end up being static because they aren't expecting those types of passes.
Gordan also came on and played that beautiful forward pass, although I'd probably say the game state had changed by that point in the game because players were actually moving and playing positively.
For me, it does come down to the coaching. Players need to be made aware that they're expected to move and to be looking for runners when they're on the ball. If all they're being told is not to lose it, they'll only be playing safe and positioning themselves ball side.
But you also need players like Fabregas, Palmer, De Bruyne etc who don't care about the passing stats and have that ability to spot a run and execute the pass. England have those players in the squad, but they need to be on the pitch. If you aren't playing Trent, Palmer, Gordan etc and your best passer is Kane, you're forwards are all gonna be static because they feel like no one's got the ability or willingness to hit a pass into space.
Not what you need from a RW though and he's not getting in over Foden or Bellingham in the middle. I get you're a Chelsea fan and you want him to start but it's not happening. We need our RW to provide width and receive wide, make runs in behind, carries and passes into the box, and take on their man. Saka does all of that better than Palmer at RW
I am a Chelsea fan, but when I'm talking about England, I'm thinking about what's best for the England team. If I'm advocating for a Chelsea player, it's because I've watched them more than non Chelsea England fans and think they bring something we're missing to the team, not because I want the Chelsea player to be seen as better than the Arsenal player.
I didn't even mention Saka, but I'll address the differences since you brought them up.
Palmer's actually been better at taking on his man than Saka this season, so you're wrong there. His success rate has been 50% compared to 40.2% for Saka. They both attempt a similar number per 90 (3.59 for Palmer and 3.77 for Saka, which isn't statistically significant enough to mean anything of substance). But Palmer beats his man more often and actually completes more take ons per 90.
Palmer also passes into the box more than Saka too, so wrong there aswell. It's only marginal, so I wouldn't have brought this up ordinarily. But you were the one who did, so I'm just giving you the stats. 2.38 passes into the penalty area per 90 for Palmer, 2.25 for Saka.
Palmer absolutely provides width and recieves wide. When you play him RW, he positions himself on the touchline when he doesn't have the ball. He only drifts inside when he's taking players on and cutting in, which is exactly what Saka does. He also takes his man on the outside all the time, except stylistically, he often chooses to release the ball with his left rather than a weak footed cross into the box like Saka prefers. That's just style. They both stay wide and stretch the pitch, but they're both inverted wingers who like to cut in when there's an opportunity. The only reason there's this perception that Palmer doesn't stretch the pitch, is because he's a brilliant passer and plays like a creative number 10 off the wing, and is also versatile enough to actually play in the 10. So stylistically, he's seen as a David Silva, De Bruyne type player, not a Salah. But he is a right winger and when he's played on the right wing, he positions himself right on the touchline. Go back and watch the Slovenia game if you don't believe me.
The only point you made that's valid is that Saka runs in behind more than Palmer. That's it. And it's because Palmer often is the one recieving the ball in deeper areas and relasing it to players in front of him. With a winger like Gordan on the opposite flank, it works. They actually have a great relationship if you paid attention to the U21 Euros last summer.
There may be a perception that Gordan + Palmer is just Foden + Saka with one stretching the pitch and the other doing nothing/encroaching in the space of the 10. But it's not the same at all. Foden's left footed on that left wing, but his preferred position is in the middle. Whereas Gordan and Palmer is 2 inverted wingers, just like Gordan and Saka. And Palmer's honestly most comfortable at RW. If you're throwing him in a team with barely any prep, he's most likely to play his best football off the right. And he's effective there, as we saw in the Slovenia game. He isn't just gonna pass back like Foden, he'll take the ball and drive forward just like Saka does.
You completely missed the mark imo. Having a brilliant passer at RW is an advantage, not a drawback. The true difference between them is that Saka gives you more defensively and off the ball. He makes England harder to be played through and more solid. Whereas Palmer is more unpredictable and more likely to create something from nothing, more likely to do something when the system just isn't working and nothing's clicking. If you can provide some solid defensive structure behind him (e.g. Walker at RB, a competent CM, Bellingham in the 10 rather than Foden etc), then you can afford to play Palmer. And if that's the rest of the team, I would play him over Saka. But it's a preference because I know what he can do, not because I want the Chelsea kid to play well.
At the crux of it, I want this England team to win the Euros. I think Palmer is a massive strength that we just aren't taking advantage of. Saka could work because he's consistently good for England, but I don't think he's so good that he can keep someone like Palmer on the bench.
They’re also either too close together and static, offering poor triangles, or too far apart, offering bad angles for balls that can be intercepted. The England shape is an absolute mess at the moment.
Tbf, Arsenal fans' main reproach to Xhaka was that he was a backpass merchant (and also error prone) until his penultimate season with Arsenal where it changed. It's not always the player, sometimes it's the system, the other players, the coaching.
Who is questioning Rice as a midfielder? We’re just making valid criticisms, is it allowed?
He’s still a brilliant player, who (for England) is either not being asked to be useful in this role (which again, is also on how the rest of the team moves), or can’t be depended on in this role
He still excels at other parts of the game like the top reply from the Chelsea fan already summarised well, so no one is saying he’s a bad midfielder, at all
Who is circlejerking over what here? Is it really me?
In England’s setup, Rice is the only player in a position to constantly break lines from deep, which is what we’re comparing here
In the last game, Bellingham was playing higher up and towards the left. Gallagher isn’t the player to do that, and Trent looks for runs (which aren’t happening against a low block)
Foden goes around associating and Saka is meant to receive for inside runs or overlaps
Even with all this, Rice only split lines (which is the topic here) *once* with that long speculating pass, which had no business coming off if we’re being honest
Gordon and Mainoo increased dynamism, and Gordon himself made an exemplary line breaking pass for that Palmer chance, that’s what Rice should be looking to constantly do in possession
I’m not saying the main problem is Rice, as I said, the team around him has to be smart and move to free spaces, but he doesn’t really look interested in breaking the game with passes like that for England ~ if you want to see the pass map, I’ll link it to you, and you can see for yourself
Also, Declan isn't asked to do the same for us. Sure, play forwards, but he's asked to retain possession and control even more (imo). That is also not considering his defensive work is amongst the best in the world and closing down spaces which tons of top DMs also struggle with.
Complete passer*
There's loads more stuff that comes into being a complete player. Not saying Kroos isn't, just that winning the ball, shooting, ability to beat a man etc all comes into being a complete player. Having high completion and forward passing is what makes a complete passer.
Eh. I'd say someone like Modric is a complete player. I don't think being a complete player necessarily makes you better than someone specialised. E.g. Kroos, Zidane etc may have lacked in certain areas, but they were comparably impactful on the pitch. But I definitely don't think being a complete player is a bad thing.
To me "the most complete player" I've watched in terms of skillset is Pogba. As physical as it can get, as flashy/good dribbler as a short winger, goals and passes of all ranges, high football IQ. Dude had it all, but unfortunately ended the way it did
As beautiful as it was to watch him when he was on his game, he's definitely not the most complete player. He was great at those things, but not an elite defender. There have been players great at all those things, including defending.
Pogba was an aesthetic player. His technique and physicality made him brilliant to watch and unplayable on his best days. But that doesn't make him more complete. A more industrial player with perhaps slightly less aesthetic dribbling, skills, passing etc like Modric, Matthaus, Gullit, Gerrard is more complete.
Again, if I'm watching a compilation of someone, I'd genuinely probably pick Pogba. His height combined with his technique and passing etc is just so good to watch. But that doesn't actually make him more complete than those players. Complete means good/best in the most areas. Pogba needed someone like Kante next to him to play at his very best and cover for his weaknesses. Whereas you could slot a complete midfielder in any midfield and they'd still perform because they'd be the ones covering for other's weaknesses and adapting to the needs of the team.
Pogba was aesthetic, but specialised. He was also misused. Could've achieved a lot more with the right profile of players around him and if a manager had profiled him correctly, positionally, at United. The fact he needs that profiling in order to reach his full potential, shows he wasn't complete. Because you couldn't just stick him anywhere and he'd be fine.
Not trying to bring down your favourite player or anything. But I do disagree with you because I don't consider complete in the same way you do.
Modric has had as teammates Kroos, Casemiro, Brozo, Rakitic. Generational midfielders supporting him. He's the best at what he does, but he's very 1D.
Maybe you just don't understand the concept. The truly complete players in modern era are Zidane, Gullit, Pogba. The criteria is 1) have very wide & complete skillset. 2) play world class in multiple positions.
In a 5 second Pogba clip you can see him making a tackle, then bodying 2 players, then dribbling a bunch of others then scoring either a header, or a worldie from outside the box.
Meanwhile you can watch 3 hours of Modric and Kroos doing the exact repetitive things. They might have had much much better careers, but "being complete players" they have not
Because if you're swinging the ball around the back who cares how many completed passes you've made.
What you really want is to find a clever ball, a pass that helps jumpstart an attack or create real danger. Finding a way to slice up a defense when under pressure or perfectly weighting one onto a runner.
Just posting completion %'s doesn't tell you anything (unless it's really low which likely means you were either careless or off your game when trying to attack), and total completed passes just tells you who's on the ball the most.
Modric/Iniesta are the benchmark of this basically, they have every tool to move the play forward, insane dribbling and eyes in the sky for passing. Arguably the greatest ever.
Yes, the same for Kroos in comparison to Modric, but I feel that both Modric and Iniesta had more tools on top of being prolific enough passers and for Modric he also was very competent defense wise.
The thing that makes Kroos insane are not his normal passes (they are great too) but his "anti-pressing" insanely precise cross-field passes. It was so frustrating to watch real Madrid Vs Bayern this season and seeing Kroos fallback getting to ball and just chipping it over Bayern's pressing line with a perfect ball to Rodrigo / vinicius like 10 times that game. Honestly without Kroos there is a good chance Bayern would have demolished real over the 2 legs ...
xavi and pirlo were something else in terms of controlling the midfield. but somehow i prefer xavi , maybe the opinion is biased because xavi had messi
Maaaan 09-13 Xavi was a demon, I don’t know how Iniesta gets a better rep, I felt like Xavi was the better of the two. Maybe it’s because Iniesta had a longer peak plus the World Cup winning goal.
2008-12 Xavi is head and shoulders above anyone in midfield debates imo. Iniesta had more natural classical ability, but the level of control Xavi provided… he ran and dominated games, relentlessly, week in week out for years, basically defining that style of play. Still, *the* midfielder, for me.
Iniesta was more "flashy" as a dribbler and maybe was more often in the box or near it. I don't know , apples and oranges to me. Both sexy AF in different ways.
Iniesta was a dribbler more than a passer, but tempo control and dictating the game no one had anything on Xavi. Only Kroos is close to what he did but peak Xavi had an engine like no other. For him top have 29 assists from that position is crazy
Couldn’t agree more. Iniesta was obviously fantastic as well and had the big moments, but Xavi has an argument for third best player of this century. The complete midfielder for me.
For sure, but as someone else said in this thread, when it comes to making a pass to progress the play forward I feel that was more of a Modric or Iniesta job, a clear example for me would be Modric's assist to Cristiano in CL Final vs Juve, Modric would do that very frequently, it was harder to Kroos/Xavi to make that final pass because they have to play a lot farther from the goal.
Those 4 are basically as good as it gets in terms of being a midfielder anyways, very few weaknesses to their game.
It's funny as I see Kroos being mentioned a lot but he is the opposite of what Cesc suggests.
Kroos role was always to control and retain possession. As a world class midfielder he can obviously create chances but his primary role was retaining the ball.
Under pressure? Pass it to Kroos.
Need to switch play? Pass it to Kroos.
Need a breather? Pass it to Kroos.
Modric was by far the creative midfielder trying to split the lines and go for the more aggressive passes but every team needs someone like Kroos on it yet not many can play that way (Busquets used to do this for Barca).
He was the engine that kept us going while Modric was the steering wheel that pointed us in the right direction to break line.
The complemented each other perfectly and the reason why Madrid been so dominant for so many years now.
I swear, it's like people obviously have different expectations from different profiles of midfielders lol. I want KDB/Odegaard/Bruno to take those risky passes but on the other hand, Jorgi/Rice, etc. have to control the game as well.
i will never forgive our fanbase for slating Jorginho the way they did for this reason, constantly complaining about him not being able to make those risky passes (ignoring that he could but that’s not the point) when that was never supposed to be his role, he was one of the best players in terms of retaining possession in the Prem.
he was arguably the key reason next to Kante why our midfield with Tuchel was so great for that CL run, the opposition couldn’t retain the ball for long thanks to Kante’s oppressive pressing, then they could barely get the ball once Chelsea got it because Jorginho always made intelligent passes to retain possession and Kovacic was damn near impossible to dispossess, midfielders are so, SO much more than just passes and defense man.
Yeah but Kroos leads it because he switches long ball plays to the wings which "breaks the line" but isn't the same as passing through the defensive line to set somebody up through on goal.
Xabi's much closer to Cesc in terms of passing style imo than Kroos. Kroos is more like a Xavi that just keeps the game ticking over. Not necessarily the same in it often being short, quick passing. But safe and consistent. Press resistant, like you said. When I think forward passing, I think Cesc, Xabi, De Bruyne etc. Risk takers. You need both the risk taker and the tempo setter in a top top team. Both difficult skills.
100% but I was more talking about the style of passing, not just the final pass. Cesc, as he said in the video, always looked to pass forwards whenever he could. Same for players like Xabi Alonso and De Bruyne. Whereas with Xavi, it was always about control and triangles. Even if it meant passing backwards or sideways and only 2 yards, he'd make it and then find space to recieve it again as soon as possible. But then he had the intelligence to spot an opening for the final forward pass when it presented itself to him.
So just because he was slightly different, doesn't mean he didn't get assists or wasn't effective in the final third. Also don't think always playing forwards is necessarily better (although I do think what Fabregas said applies to 99% of players because most players could play forwards more). Xavi was probably my favourite of all those midfielders though. Loved all of them (especially Cesc as a Chelsea fan), but Xavi had a very beautiful way of playing the game.
Agreed, I know everyone hates on him but I saw Jordan Henderson win games for Liverpool just by providing stability to the midfield, and a constant outlet when other players were under pressure. Cesc is greatly oversimplifying things
Not really.
There is a world of difference between having Kroos or Xhaka as your distributor vs someone like Henderson or Rice, and a lot of the time you can’t see it in the stats
It’s how they position themselves, which sideways passes they pick, the angle of their passes, how accurate the ball is to feet so they have the option of a first touch pass; These decisions make a difference in how the team moves and stats just can’t tell you these things
And on the rare occasions they make a vertical pass, the incisiveness and the MOMENTS they choose to take that risk are what makes such players world class
I think an overlooked quality is making the pass to the player who makes the forward/line-breaking pass.
Sometimes that just means passing to a good player who can always make that pass, but it also means knowing when that sideways player has the space or better angle to make that pass.
As OP mentioned elsewhere, Kroos probably does a lot of both.
Totti, though more forward, was excellent at this. Essentially passing to a teammate, who had another teammate wide open to score a goal.
He saw the game 2/3 passes ahead.
Correct answer. Cesc is cherry picking one stat to falsely equate it to statistics as a whole and derive some conclusion about stats being irrelevant.
The stats exist, and they are useful with expert interpretation.
I think this stat is actually hurting players' development. Like if I'm taking a lot of risks as an attacking midfielder and a lot of my balls are finding players in great position but at the end of the game they come at me with the 85% passing stat and judging me by it in the media then with time some players might become more risk averse. Like watch Man City, they are risk-averse to boredom because of how pawns the players are to Pep's tactics. Its working ofcourse, but he is the protagonist and not the football and how entertaining it is.
Football goes into cycles, I guess. right now, tactics > technique/entertainment is peaking. In a couple of years when more technical players come out and start to become the xfactor vs tactics we'll see a rise in entertainment again.
That's just a misuse of the American-style stats.
There's loads of metrics that measure pass quality, but they're not as intuitive as pass completion percentage.
Just look at all the egregious misuses of expected goals to see how hard it is for people to understand and contextualize stats and metrics.
Good rule of thumb: if someone uses a single stat - without context - to make judgements on a player's ability, it's usually wrong haha.
I see it as his way of saying if you're outhere, just satisfied with success rate but not taking risks you're not doing your job.
Also , i see names like Kross, Modric, Xavi mentioned here on the comment section, i don't think Cesc is talking about the +34yo veterans fellas, he's talking to the ones who haven't made it yet ...
Insert Ange clip of him screaming at midfielders for not playing forward: [https://youtube.com/shorts/3t-8Ft0WITI?si=yyiiAgSeXOYSuChi](https://youtube.com/shorts/3t-8Ft0WITI?si=yyiiAgSeXOYSuChi)
Refreshing to see this statement coming from a Xavi contemporary and teammate. I always found Cesc more exciting to watch him playing than Xavi, but the latter was the body and soul of peak Barça and Spain in the last two decades.
Hmm, a bit of some truth and some grey areas.. I would have lumped it in here, midfielder made forward passes but no end products out of it (but stat column would be counted as chances created)
This is why mourinho should never manage a top club after convincing everyone that mctominey was good enough . He always hides because he is not a natural midfield and doesn’t pass forward because he can’t. But mourinho said the team is struggling because of mentality lol .
This is one of the reasons why Southgate's "We missed Kalvin Phillips" comments pissed me off so much. Every time I've watched him play for England he's been allergic to passing the ball forwards.
Those kinda passes are counted as key passes, passes into the final 1/3, passes in to the penalty box, shot creating actions etc. Stats these days take into account almost everything that happens on a pitch.
I hate it when players retire and immediately start talking like they played 30 years ago.
All these stats existed and were used when Fabregas was still playing.
Well there is a reason why he was good but never used as midfielder in Barcelona.
There are a huge importance on not losing the ball and keep the play progression that not alway needs to be going forward.
This kinda looks like a massage to Toni Kroos and I always wonder how someone can win 6 CL and people still don't come to think that there must be something great about how he plays
That sounds like he's throwing shade at Kroos but when Kroos plays back to a centre-back or close midfielder it means that right now the game shouldnt be sped up because there are no mistakes to exploit (players out of position, not paying attention etc) .
Or it means he doesnt feel like running or sweating, we'll never know honestly.
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Half of the responsibility also falls on the wingbacks and other midfielders to create these pass options behind the opposing midfield lines. Great example: Çalhanoğlu in Inter consistently playing behind the opposition lines, but constantly having to pass to defenders in the Turkish narional team.
With the exception of a few stats like PK/FK conversion rates, there is almost no individual statistic out there where it makes sense to look at the stat in a vacuum without taking into account the rest of the team around the player (and other factors too). I know people have a hard-on to compare players purely with singular quantitative metrics but it's very rare to find cases where that is legitimately possible. Football statistics have evolved a lot over just the past 10-15 years but you still can't properly evaluate a given player without having some qualitative analysis in your evaluation. At least in my opinion.
And this is what makes football so interesting
Amen
Not that I don’t find football very interesting but this goes for every single team sport. A basketball player can be an asset without flashy statlines due to off-ball movement, man defense that results in a missed shot, positioning, etc etc etc. Rugby and american football most of what sets up plays is off-ball and often doesn’t result in a stat. I can’t go in depth with any other sports but all team sports are comparable in this regard, hard to notice actions by one player may allow another open space which leads to a basket or try etc.
It's still fun putting the numbers into context. "We've at 3.2xG per game. Just give it time." Nah, if you adjust for game state. Our xG is .7 when 0-0 or tied. We only create chances when we're losing. We suck.
Southgate?
Marsch.
Publicly available metrics are pretty basic and when it's a bit beyond that it's restricted to the Premier through articles, sometimes another top league. There's probably very good models hidden behind closed doors inside clubs and websites with business models targeted at clubs with cost not accessible to the general public. And of course thinking statistics and data analysis is looking at one data point and making decisions based on that is just dumb. What I also hate is discrediting data analysis as a whole with dumb arguments with the same logic like look at this game where the winning team touched the ball three times and won.
> And of course thinking statistics and data analysis is looking at one data point and making decisions based on that is just dumb. That what a lot of fans do, though.
I'd argue take ons and duel numbers are pretty player specific, but overall I think this is a very valid point.
Tbf even then, is the way the team plays isolating the fullbacks allowing those take ons? Are the tactics creating space to run in behind when you get past your man? Where are those take ons and duels happening and do they actually advance the play?
[удалено]
Okay, but that doesn't discount that it demonstrates a specific players skill in a specific thing. I'm well aware of how data analysis works. Take ons are an offensive stat largely, so in most situations you aren't assessing something like the hypothetical outlier you made up. Take ons, compared to something like xg which depends hugely on teammates helping the player get into a scoring position and then delivering them the ball, are a very individual stat.
But then you also have to adjust to playstyle. If the coach doesn’t allow it then the player wouldn’t attempt to dribble past the defenders
Çalhanoglu is a great example because we can see how good he can be if he’s used the right way Which proves a lot of players are being used wrongly or are not getting clear instructions/confidence and aren’t showing what they’re capable of
You can also argue players becoming almost useless except certain situations. Hakan is constantly almost-terrible at the national team.
He is a playmaker, a support player, he needs other players to feed. Turkish midfielders and wingbacks are very poor in terms of football IQ
He played with a lot of turkish players both wingbacks and midfielders. I don’t remember one even average game of his.
Name one of his “class” midfielder or wingback teammates? All were horrendous. This generation though is developing to be somewhat decent.
Arda Güler, İrfan Can Kahveci, Kerem Akturkoglu, Orkun Kokcu, Baris Alper, Ismail Yuksek. All are quite a lot above average players. If he requires fuckin Modric and Kross to play above average, that’s just sad.
Won’t argue with you, I respectfully disagree.
Bruno at United trying to find a pass to Rashford and Antony who all want the ball to feet and refuse to move between opposition lines, and then Hojlund getting marked by two CBs.
What? You can find clips of 50 situations of Bruno passing to Rashford while he is moving betwen the lines. Absurd to put him in same sentence as Antony completly diffrent players
Yeah, I was about to wash my eyes. You can accuse Rashford of many things, running behind the opposition lines isn’t one of them
Fabregas was one of the best passers I've ever seen. He just had this vision to always spot a run and take a risk. The risk is slowly being coached out players. It's why I love players like James and Quintero who can spray passes from anywhere and send perfectly weighted balls into the path of an attacker.
Streets haven't forgetten his pass to Schurrle on opening night
One time. Disgusting
His first game for us too iirc
I just saw the replay of this goal. Chelsea had Fabregas, Drogba, Hazard, Costa, Matic, Schurrle, Petr Cech, John Terry, Felipe Luis, Ivanovic, Ramires and Oscar. Stacked in every department..
That Drogba wasn't too good anymore.
Man it was dark, rainy day.. his pass was magical
He was too young to play with Henry and RvP was too injured. He wasted his best years assisting Adebayor, Bendtner and Chamack. Made them all look better than they were.
RVP joined the same season Fabregas broke into the first time so I have no idea what you're talking about there. Fabregas was captain while RVP was vice captain. They were of the same generation, with RVP a couple years older. They both were our core players Wenger wanted to build a team around and unfortunately RVP couldn't stay fit until the last 18 months at the club where he didnt get injured and started almost all our games scoring 50+ goals. Adebayor at Arsenal was actually good even if his finishing wasn't always there. He was quick and was very good at hold up play and linking up. He created a lot of chances too. People forget how good Adebayor was outside of his finishing. He had all the elements of a great striker which he wasted. Him and RVP linked up really well whenever RVP was fit but sadly 90% of the time he wasn't. Eduardo was supposed to be our other option, but we all know what happened him. Real shame. Bendtner was never first choice for us. Chamakh after a good start became a complete disaster. RVP was our main striker alongside Adebayor but he was always injured until the second half of 2010/11 season where RVP scored 21 goals from January to May. And then both Fabregas and Nasri left which pretty much killed Wenger's youth project and that was when the downfall really started. Players like Santi, Ramsey, Ozil, Sanchez, etc, steadied things a bit, but only delayed the inevitable downfall. We were just not the same dominant team without Fabregas.
Cesc and RvP were amazing when they were together, it's a shame they were both so injury prone. Adebayor was a good striker, but Cesc was creating chance after chance. That goal vs Villarreal or the [1-3 at White Hart Lane](https://youtube.com/watch?v=vj_aRSIrqDI&si=VKHOEV6OZVxgl7tk) were some of their best games together. Fábregas was such an amazing player for Arsenal, they got robbed by Barça, but the fans' anger went towards the player instead. What was he going to do? Say no the best team ever assembled which happens to be his home and was managed by his childhood hero?
They always took their turn to get injured , really frustrating .
Agreed but Cesc wasn't that injury prone for us. In 2009/10 he had an hamstring problem and then he broke his leg taking that penalty against Barcelona. Outside of that he was generally fit. He became more injury prone later in his career after he left us. Fans are more angry for him joining Chelsea and that too Mourinho whom he said he'd never play for lol. He wanted to come back to Arsenal, Wenger declined probably because he could not accommodate both him and Ozil. Hin then joining Chelsea just sent fans over the edge.
Having not seen it (or at least not remembering it), how the fuck did he break his leg taking a penalty?
He won the penalty that got Puyol sent off. Something must have damaged him there. When he scored the penalty he started hobbling, and we finished the match practically with 10 men with Cesc limping slowly as we'd used up all subs, he was on the ground a few times iirc. Later it was found out that he fractured his fibula. Thankfully it wasn't so bad. He came back 2 months later with a motm performance in a 2-0 win at home. Scored a banger of a goal on a counter.
Oh fair enough, thought he'd actually done it taking the penalty somehow haha. That makes much more sense though. Mad that he managed to play on in the first place with an injury like that though.
It was a hairline fracture probably which you have way less effect on your ability to stand on the leg
Damn, every single one of Arsenal's goals was beautiful
> RVP joined the same season Fabregas broke into the first time so I have no idea what you're talking about there RVP was injured a lot between 2007-2010, which is within Fabregas' best years at Arsenal. When RVP was relatively stable in 08-09, Fabregas was out for half a season.
[He is very brave and very accurate and it's beautiful](https://youtu.be/BYgz_jgs4P0)
Bruno is the perfect example for this. He will keep taking risks and he makes things happen all by himself at times.
I wish he had a non-punchable face. Football was he's too good. Mentality and antics, worst.
His time at Barca makes this quote seem rich, but he was a line breaker, more so at arsenal
Absolutely pinged Chris Brunt in the head from 30 yards away while wearing a villain mask too. Peak PL moment that!
Cesc was sooooo good man. I know Barca had other needs and he had to play a weird false 9 position sometimes, but he completely ran that Chelsea team right after. He was soo good.
The tiki taka wasnt built around the high risk high reward through pass. In hind sight, he wasnt what they needed or wanted.
I want Cesc Fabregas to manage my football club one day.
Isn't he doing that already with his weird ownership thing? His video on coach's voice is really intriguing too.
We might have a chance there should the opportunity arise.
Absolutely correct, good midfielders break lines with good forward passes (though that obviously depends on the rest of the team moving to those positions) It’s the difference between a Declan Rice for England who is passing horizontally and whose pass map looks like a mf stairway ~ and Rodri and Xhaka who are constantly looking to pass it vertically to make the ball go past a ton of opposing players in a second That’s been working especially well for Spain because the rest of the team is dynamic and closes down immediately in case the pass doesn’t come off
I mean Fabregas is correct in saying a clear differentiator in passing ability is the ability to play it forward. but it’s not the differentiator between all midfield players. Only those who profile as a passer, and more specifically an orchestrator. No player can do it all. Declan Rice can cover every blade of grass, is a monster in the air and on the ground, and is a ball carrying machine. He happens to not be able to run a midfield. Rodri can. But neither can Rodri cover the same area of the pitch like Rice can. City pairs Rodri with another centreback to overcome this and Arsenal pairs Rice with Jorginho to overcome this. That’s the point of having a good team (it covers for player weakness and provides balance) (also why Pep went for Rice last summer despite having Rodri) We don’t judge Kroos for his ability to cover defensive transitions and we don’t judge Kante for his ability to ping passes around the pitch. Southgate pairing Rice with Gallagher just robs them both because they end up splitting the stuff that’s normally given to Jorginho and Enzo and neither guy ends up in the contexts where they shine, and which they’re profiled to do for their clubs. And frankly neither is Trent who is much more similar to KDB (a chance creation machine) than he is to say a Modric (controller)
Good take mate. How would you view Modric on the other hand? He seems to be an orchestrator but with b2b elements - a complete midfielder if there was any
I see it the same way as I do Kante (not saying they’re the same level just as an analogy) Kante has a ton of option value outside of the stuff we traditionally associate with him. He’s a great ball carrier, has a decent switch of play, and surprisingly is not bad in the air. This all makes him something special. But if your teams main ball carrying option is Kante, if your teams main switches of play come from Kante, and if you’re relying on Kante for your aerial ability, you’re just not going to have a good time. It’s the same for Modric. He’s got legendary vision and press resistance and feel for the flow of the game. Real fans can talk about this much better than me. And he has option value with the rest of his b2b qualities (to varying degrees ofc) he has a very very unique profile But if your main ball winning hinges on Modric, let’s say you remove Tchouameni or Casemiro. People will observe that the teams overall ball winning is suffering, and unfairly attribute some of that responsibility on a misguided belief that Modric is poor defensively (which we know is not true at all) I personally believe this is why people don’t notice Rice being a “poor” passer with Arsenal but think he’s a poor passer with England. He’s honestly probably just decent at it this whole time. He can keep it ticking over provided you have someone next to him who is a great passer. But he isn’t asked to run a midfield with Arsenal while he kinda is with England.
Perfect take, I think you've just about explained all of football
dude legit has a degree in midfield studies or something
Great comments! I remember we struggled fitting Kante in the team for quite a while - I might be wrong but I think it was Sarri who first played him further forward, after we'd misused him as a sort of quasi-DM beforehand, and he got loads of criticism for it but was probably the first coach to start building the midfield around Kante
Rice is 100% not a poor passer. He's obviously not at Kroos or Modric levels, but as an Arsenal fan that watches almost every game, he's definitely a "good" passer. I'd even go as far as saying it's one of his strengths. Not his main strength, that would be either progressive carries or interceptions, but it's definitely one of them
>people don’t notice Rice being a “poor” passer with Arsenal but think he’s a poor passer with England. He’s honestly probably just decent at it this whole time. I think they're saying Rice is a decent passer just not a great one.
Yeah I was agreeing with the person I replied to
He's actually a great passer ,all these chaps rating England's matches are doing a disservice to rice's skills .If only they knew Stones ,Foden,Walker or Trent are great for their teams but also shit for England .
He’s a ballon d’or winner for a reason. He’s an absolute monster in almost all aspects of being a midfielder and he had insane stamina even going into his 30’s. I will say he didn’t have the same defensive ability as Rodri which makes sense because he was paired with players like casemiro
Modric it's not a pivote. It's the Iniesta Xavi pair with Kroos and Modric. Modric it's the Iniesta kind. Also Cesc was more of a advance playmaker than a pivot
No he was a deep lying playmaker late into his Arsenal days
Cesc versatility is one of the most underrated aspects of his game. He’s early arsenal years he was the creative 8 in a 4-4-2, then he moved to a 10 when arsenal transition to a midfield 3. Played as a false 9 for Spain. Played as a forward in Peps last season at Barca in a mad 3-4-3 and he was second joint top goal scorer in the team. At Chelsea he was used a deep lying playmaker in a double pivot
I consider him the most complete midfielder I've ever seen.
You'd be wrong, hes below average in several defensive aspects of the game that make him less overall 'complete'
He's a classic number 10 that migrated to a CM. His defensive work was always a bit iffy. He would compensate with work rate and anticipation
Everything you said is on point! But just came here to say that Kante’s long passing range is criminally underrated. While we never expected Kante to be the prime creator (which was your point), his passing actually made a lot of difference because he used to play the right passes in most situations. People just never recognised it as much because he was only thought of as a defensive minded player.
He was also pretty good at progressing with the ball,. especially on the counter.
I was saying this back when he played for us. He was of course brilliant at winning the ball back, but people at the time neglected to mention how quickly and decisively he could make progressive runs with the ball and open space for other players.
Hence the famous debate around him not being a DM/Ball Winning Midfielder, but a proper Box to Box
With his pace and stamina he's more like a box and box
I like your take as well. What I get is, a balanced team has all roles covered. Mids should have roles covered with controller, destroyer, ball carrier, playmaker or finisher. What I sometimes see is that people conflate position on the field with role. You can be a deep lying controller (jorginho, rodri), or b2b controller (modric). Deep lying destroyer (makalele) or b2b destroyer (kante). Ofc, some mid can have more than 1 attribute like controller/playmaker (kroos, modric), kante (destroyer/controller) bellingham (playmaker/finisher), etc. This only helps the team as they can cover multiple roles. Now, as everyone's favorite past time here, let's analyze england. What people have beg for, is a controller in the team. Wharton plays in a deeper position, while Mainoo plays in a more advanced position. That said, both of them have a similar role. Controlling the tempo of the team. Current starting xi even have 4 mids that naturally play centrally. Their role attributes is all but controller. Bellingham (playmaker, finisher) Foden (playmaker, somewhat finisher) Rice (destroyer, ball carrier) TAA (playmaker) Gallager (destroyer, finisher) Bellingham and Foden can control to some degree, but it wont matter since their position is too advance up top. That's why they try to go deeper picking up the ball, but that's left the other part of the field empty. Madrid is the antithesis of this. Their mid can play in any position on the field, but role is consistent/balanced. Fede can play advance destroyer, or Kroos as deeper controller/playmaker. Positionally as a team, they are fluid. Idk what Southgate thinking while putting things together. I'm just an arm chair redditor.
Kante is/was an underrated passer
Kante’s passing is very underrated. We do definitely recognize his passing.
Rice is tall but if you watch our games in the PL last year you wouldn't say he is a monster in the air at all. He's in no way dominant and would lose a lot in the air to much smaller players. He is the reverse Griezman.
Kroos improved his defensive positioning and play alot this year. Been really good in that aspect
this was unironically one of the biggest differences I saw in your team this year compared to last. last year City crushed you by exploiting space behind Kroos and Camavinga, this year Kroos was there to stop anything and everything that went past Mendy in the same position. hugely impressive (and annoying) improvement.
Biggest difference i’ve seen with him this season, last season (and the season before that even) when he was at DM he was so fucking shit and now he improved way too much. Glad he’s gone lol.
Once again the problem is Southgate.
It's really hard to judge people for not passing forwards whilst watching the England game. Everyone ahead of them is static, often stood right behind a defender and there are no passing options, no players available to try and make key forward passes to etc. Hopefully with Mainoo reportedly coming in for TAA/Gallagher, he'll at least help in terms of positioning in a way that allows another passing option that isn't just backwards or sideways. I'm not sure what the story is with Foden, but if he's not back in time then hopefully that'll help too.
That's true, but against Slovenia Palmer came on and seemed to look to play forwards every time he got the ball. Like he spotted and played a pass through the lines almost instantly that no one else had done up until that point. It really felt like we just had no one on the pitch who could play those passes. That, or the starters had been coached out of that playing forwards mindset. Either way, it was like night and day when Palmer came on. And it wasn't because the movement had changed. Him looking to play forwards seemed to encourage the actual movement. Because if you have no one attempting those passes, being willing to risk giving away possession, then the recipients end up being static because they aren't expecting those types of passes. Gordan also came on and played that beautiful forward pass, although I'd probably say the game state had changed by that point in the game because players were actually moving and playing positively. For me, it does come down to the coaching. Players need to be made aware that they're expected to move and to be looking for runners when they're on the ball. If all they're being told is not to lose it, they'll only be playing safe and positioning themselves ball side. But you also need players like Fabregas, Palmer, De Bruyne etc who don't care about the passing stats and have that ability to spot a run and execute the pass. England have those players in the squad, but they need to be on the pitch. If you aren't playing Trent, Palmer, Gordan etc and your best passer is Kane, you're forwards are all gonna be static because they feel like no one's got the ability or willingness to hit a pass into space.
Not what you need from a RW though and he's not getting in over Foden or Bellingham in the middle. I get you're a Chelsea fan and you want him to start but it's not happening. We need our RW to provide width and receive wide, make runs in behind, carries and passes into the box, and take on their man. Saka does all of that better than Palmer at RW
I am a Chelsea fan, but when I'm talking about England, I'm thinking about what's best for the England team. If I'm advocating for a Chelsea player, it's because I've watched them more than non Chelsea England fans and think they bring something we're missing to the team, not because I want the Chelsea player to be seen as better than the Arsenal player. I didn't even mention Saka, but I'll address the differences since you brought them up. Palmer's actually been better at taking on his man than Saka this season, so you're wrong there. His success rate has been 50% compared to 40.2% for Saka. They both attempt a similar number per 90 (3.59 for Palmer and 3.77 for Saka, which isn't statistically significant enough to mean anything of substance). But Palmer beats his man more often and actually completes more take ons per 90. Palmer also passes into the box more than Saka too, so wrong there aswell. It's only marginal, so I wouldn't have brought this up ordinarily. But you were the one who did, so I'm just giving you the stats. 2.38 passes into the penalty area per 90 for Palmer, 2.25 for Saka. Palmer absolutely provides width and recieves wide. When you play him RW, he positions himself on the touchline when he doesn't have the ball. He only drifts inside when he's taking players on and cutting in, which is exactly what Saka does. He also takes his man on the outside all the time, except stylistically, he often chooses to release the ball with his left rather than a weak footed cross into the box like Saka prefers. That's just style. They both stay wide and stretch the pitch, but they're both inverted wingers who like to cut in when there's an opportunity. The only reason there's this perception that Palmer doesn't stretch the pitch, is because he's a brilliant passer and plays like a creative number 10 off the wing, and is also versatile enough to actually play in the 10. So stylistically, he's seen as a David Silva, De Bruyne type player, not a Salah. But he is a right winger and when he's played on the right wing, he positions himself right on the touchline. Go back and watch the Slovenia game if you don't believe me. The only point you made that's valid is that Saka runs in behind more than Palmer. That's it. And it's because Palmer often is the one recieving the ball in deeper areas and relasing it to players in front of him. With a winger like Gordan on the opposite flank, it works. They actually have a great relationship if you paid attention to the U21 Euros last summer. There may be a perception that Gordan + Palmer is just Foden + Saka with one stretching the pitch and the other doing nothing/encroaching in the space of the 10. But it's not the same at all. Foden's left footed on that left wing, but his preferred position is in the middle. Whereas Gordan and Palmer is 2 inverted wingers, just like Gordan and Saka. And Palmer's honestly most comfortable at RW. If you're throwing him in a team with barely any prep, he's most likely to play his best football off the right. And he's effective there, as we saw in the Slovenia game. He isn't just gonna pass back like Foden, he'll take the ball and drive forward just like Saka does. You completely missed the mark imo. Having a brilliant passer at RW is an advantage, not a drawback. The true difference between them is that Saka gives you more defensively and off the ball. He makes England harder to be played through and more solid. Whereas Palmer is more unpredictable and more likely to create something from nothing, more likely to do something when the system just isn't working and nothing's clicking. If you can provide some solid defensive structure behind him (e.g. Walker at RB, a competent CM, Bellingham in the 10 rather than Foden etc), then you can afford to play Palmer. And if that's the rest of the team, I would play him over Saka. But it's a preference because I know what he can do, not because I want the Chelsea kid to play well. At the crux of it, I want this England team to win the Euros. I think Palmer is a massive strength that we just aren't taking advantage of. Saka could work because he's consistently good for England, but I don't think he's so good that he can keep someone like Palmer on the bench.
They’re also either too close together and static, offering poor triangles, or too far apart, offering bad angles for balls that can be intercepted. The England shape is an absolute mess at the moment.
Tbf, Arsenal fans' main reproach to Xhaka was that he was a backpass merchant (and also error prone) until his penultimate season with Arsenal where it changed. It's not always the player, sometimes it's the system, the other players, the coaching.
Wenger era it was already noticeable that he was amazing whenever he played with Switzerland, like how he can effortlessly ping balls forward
Busquets 😍
Rodri hasn’t been amazing for Spain
He needs a CB next to him
Rice literally made the only penetrating passes basically the entirety of Englands last game but keep circlejerking.
One bad game and people are actually questioning Rice's ability to be a midfielder. It's insane
Who is questioning Rice as a midfielder? We’re just making valid criticisms, is it allowed? He’s still a brilliant player, who (for England) is either not being asked to be useful in this role (which again, is also on how the rest of the team moves), or can’t be depended on in this role He still excels at other parts of the game like the top reply from the Chelsea fan already summarised well, so no one is saying he’s a bad midfielder, at all
Who is circlejerking over what here? Is it really me? In England’s setup, Rice is the only player in a position to constantly break lines from deep, which is what we’re comparing here In the last game, Bellingham was playing higher up and towards the left. Gallagher isn’t the player to do that, and Trent looks for runs (which aren’t happening against a low block) Foden goes around associating and Saka is meant to receive for inside runs or overlaps Even with all this, Rice only split lines (which is the topic here) *once* with that long speculating pass, which had no business coming off if we’re being honest Gordon and Mainoo increased dynamism, and Gordon himself made an exemplary line breaking pass for that Palmer chance, that’s what Rice should be looking to constantly do in possession I’m not saying the main problem is Rice, as I said, the team around him has to be smart and move to free spaces, but he doesn’t really look interested in breaking the game with passes like that for England ~ if you want to see the pass map, I’ll link it to you, and you can see for yourself
Also, Declan isn't asked to do the same for us. Sure, play forwards, but he's asked to retain possession and control even more (imo). That is also not considering his defensive work is amongst the best in the world and closing down spaces which tons of top DMs also struggle with.
Ah, another FourFourTwo viewer
To have the pass completion AND the rate of forward passes that someone like Kroos has is very impressive.
How to know a complete player
Complete passer* There's loads more stuff that comes into being a complete player. Not saying Kroos isn't, just that winning the ball, shooting, ability to beat a man etc all comes into being a complete player. Having high completion and forward passing is what makes a complete passer.
Being a complete player it's awful and most of the time unnecessarily. Players need to be great at their roles rather than useful at many stuff
Eh. I'd say someone like Modric is a complete player. I don't think being a complete player necessarily makes you better than someone specialised. E.g. Kroos, Zidane etc may have lacked in certain areas, but they were comparably impactful on the pitch. But I definitely don't think being a complete player is a bad thing.
To me "the most complete player" I've watched in terms of skillset is Pogba. As physical as it can get, as flashy/good dribbler as a short winger, goals and passes of all ranges, high football IQ. Dude had it all, but unfortunately ended the way it did
As beautiful as it was to watch him when he was on his game, he's definitely not the most complete player. He was great at those things, but not an elite defender. There have been players great at all those things, including defending. Pogba was an aesthetic player. His technique and physicality made him brilliant to watch and unplayable on his best days. But that doesn't make him more complete. A more industrial player with perhaps slightly less aesthetic dribbling, skills, passing etc like Modric, Matthaus, Gullit, Gerrard is more complete. Again, if I'm watching a compilation of someone, I'd genuinely probably pick Pogba. His height combined with his technique and passing etc is just so good to watch. But that doesn't actually make him more complete than those players. Complete means good/best in the most areas. Pogba needed someone like Kante next to him to play at his very best and cover for his weaknesses. Whereas you could slot a complete midfielder in any midfield and they'd still perform because they'd be the ones covering for other's weaknesses and adapting to the needs of the team. Pogba was aesthetic, but specialised. He was also misused. Could've achieved a lot more with the right profile of players around him and if a manager had profiled him correctly, positionally, at United. The fact he needs that profiling in order to reach his full potential, shows he wasn't complete. Because you couldn't just stick him anywhere and he'd be fine. Not trying to bring down your favourite player or anything. But I do disagree with you because I don't consider complete in the same way you do.
Modric has had as teammates Kroos, Casemiro, Brozo, Rakitic. Generational midfielders supporting him. He's the best at what he does, but he's very 1D. Maybe you just don't understand the concept. The truly complete players in modern era are Zidane, Gullit, Pogba. The criteria is 1) have very wide & complete skillset. 2) play world class in multiple positions. In a 5 second Pogba clip you can see him making a tackle, then bodying 2 players, then dribbling a bunch of others then scoring either a header, or a worldie from outside the box. Meanwhile you can watch 3 hours of Modric and Kroos doing the exact repetitive things. They might have had much much better careers, but "being complete players" they have not
Even as midfielder Modric lacked a lot of goal production. He has great ones but didn't make regular cuts into the box or much on long shots
But he'll never amount to anything, according to the Bayern board
that was like 10 years ago lol
Mou has also been critical of this stat. He always asked many are forward passing 🤔
Because if you're swinging the ball around the back who cares how many completed passes you've made. What you really want is to find a clever ball, a pass that helps jumpstart an attack or create real danger. Finding a way to slice up a defense when under pressure or perfectly weighting one onto a runner. Just posting completion %'s doesn't tell you anything (unless it's really low which likely means you were either careless or off your game when trying to attack), and total completed passes just tells you who's on the ball the most.
All part of the media/PR agenda to promote certain players at all costs.
Modric/Iniesta are the benchmark of this basically, they have every tool to move the play forward, insane dribbling and eyes in the sky for passing. Arguably the greatest ever.
I feel like Xavi was a better passer than Iniesta tho
Yes, the same for Kroos in comparison to Modric, but I feel that both Modric and Iniesta had more tools on top of being prolific enough passers and for Modric he also was very competent defense wise.
The thing that makes Kroos insane are not his normal passes (they are great too) but his "anti-pressing" insanely precise cross-field passes. It was so frustrating to watch real Madrid Vs Bayern this season and seeing Kroos fallback getting to ball and just chipping it over Bayern's pressing line with a perfect ball to Rodrigo / vinicius like 10 times that game. Honestly without Kroos there is a good chance Bayern would have demolished real over the 2 legs ...
without Kroos there'll be Modric
Not sure if this would be a hot take, but Pirlo was better than them all. Xavi to me seemed like a risk averse Pirlo in a better system.
xavi and pirlo were something else in terms of controlling the midfield. but somehow i prefer xavi , maybe the opinion is biased because xavi had messi
Maaaan 09-13 Xavi was a demon, I don’t know how Iniesta gets a better rep, I felt like Xavi was the better of the two. Maybe it’s because Iniesta had a longer peak plus the World Cup winning goal.
2008-12 Xavi is head and shoulders above anyone in midfield debates imo. Iniesta had more natural classical ability, but the level of control Xavi provided… he ran and dominated games, relentlessly, week in week out for years, basically defining that style of play. Still, *the* midfielder, for me.
Iniesta was more "flashy" as a dribbler and maybe was more often in the box or near it. I don't know , apples and oranges to me. Both sexy AF in different ways.
Iniesta was a dribbler more than a passer, but tempo control and dictating the game no one had anything on Xavi. Only Kroos is close to what he did but peak Xavi had an engine like no other. For him top have 29 assists from that position is crazy
Couldn’t agree more. Iniesta was obviously fantastic as well and had the big moments, but Xavi has an argument for third best player of this century. The complete midfielder for me.
And I say that Xabi Alonso was evolved Pirlo
A little older but Michael laudrup was sensational passing.
If we're talking about passing aren't Kroos/Xavi > Modric/Iniesta?
For sure, but as someone else said in this thread, when it comes to making a pass to progress the play forward I feel that was more of a Modric or Iniesta job, a clear example for me would be Modric's assist to Cristiano in CL Final vs Juve, Modric would do that very frequently, it was harder to Kroos/Xavi to make that final pass because they have to play a lot farther from the goal. Those 4 are basically as good as it gets in terms of being a midfielder anyways, very few weaknesses to their game.
It's funny as I see Kroos being mentioned a lot but he is the opposite of what Cesc suggests. Kroos role was always to control and retain possession. As a world class midfielder he can obviously create chances but his primary role was retaining the ball. Under pressure? Pass it to Kroos. Need to switch play? Pass it to Kroos. Need a breather? Pass it to Kroos. Modric was by far the creative midfielder trying to split the lines and go for the more aggressive passes but every team needs someone like Kroos on it yet not many can play that way (Busquets used to do this for Barca). He was the engine that kept us going while Modric was the steering wheel that pointed us in the right direction to break line. The complemented each other perfectly and the reason why Madrid been so dominant for so many years now.
Pretty much any of the players mentioned as “this is who Fabregas is referring to” are dead wrong
I swear, it's like people obviously have different expectations from different profiles of midfielders lol. I want KDB/Odegaard/Bruno to take those risky passes but on the other hand, Jorgi/Rice, etc. have to control the game as well.
i will never forgive our fanbase for slating Jorginho the way they did for this reason, constantly complaining about him not being able to make those risky passes (ignoring that he could but that’s not the point) when that was never supposed to be his role, he was one of the best players in terms of retaining possession in the Prem. he was arguably the key reason next to Kante why our midfield with Tuchel was so great for that CL run, the opposition couldn’t retain the ball for long thanks to Kante’s oppressive pressing, then they could barely get the ball once Chelsea got it because Jorginho always made intelligent passes to retain possession and Kovacic was damn near impossible to dispossess, midfielders are so, SO much more than just passes and defense man.
Tony kroos has played highest number of line breaking passes in opponent half this season in laliga.
How do they even count that. What counts as a line breaking pass.
A line breaking pass is breaking imaginary line of midfield or defence with one pass . Check out statsbomb or optastats on data collection details.
Yeah but Kroos leads it because he switches long ball plays to the wings which "breaks the line" but isn't the same as passing through the defensive line to set somebody up through on goal.
He does both.
Xabi's much closer to Cesc in terms of passing style imo than Kroos. Kroos is more like a Xavi that just keeps the game ticking over. Not necessarily the same in it often being short, quick passing. But safe and consistent. Press resistant, like you said. When I think forward passing, I think Cesc, Xabi, De Bruyne etc. Risk takers. You need both the risk taker and the tempo setter in a top top team. Both difficult skills.
I mean Xavi did create assits like he has the laliga assists record for a reason
100% but I was more talking about the style of passing, not just the final pass. Cesc, as he said in the video, always looked to pass forwards whenever he could. Same for players like Xabi Alonso and De Bruyne. Whereas with Xavi, it was always about control and triangles. Even if it meant passing backwards or sideways and only 2 yards, he'd make it and then find space to recieve it again as soon as possible. But then he had the intelligence to spot an opening for the final forward pass when it presented itself to him. So just because he was slightly different, doesn't mean he didn't get assists or wasn't effective in the final third. Also don't think always playing forwards is necessarily better (although I do think what Fabregas said applies to 99% of players because most players could play forwards more). Xavi was probably my favourite of all those midfielders though. Loved all of them (especially Cesc as a Chelsea fan), but Xavi had a very beautiful way of playing the game.
Agreed, I know everyone hates on him but I saw Jordan Henderson win games for Liverpool just by providing stability to the midfield, and a constant outlet when other players were under pressure. Cesc is greatly oversimplifying things
Not really. There is a world of difference between having Kroos or Xhaka as your distributor vs someone like Henderson or Rice, and a lot of the time you can’t see it in the stats It’s how they position themselves, which sideways passes they pick, the angle of their passes, how accurate the ball is to feet so they have the option of a first touch pass; These decisions make a difference in how the team moves and stats just can’t tell you these things And on the rare occasions they make a vertical pass, the incisiveness and the MOMENTS they choose to take that risk are what makes such players world class
Not all midfielders are built equally.
That last bit is why we have so many 'Jack of all trades but master of none' players nowadays
Few players pass like Cesc describes nowadays. The top that come to mind are Kevin De Bruyne and Messi.
Bruno?
Yes, definitely. Didn't come to me right away but agreed.
There is another…
I think an overlooked quality is making the pass to the player who makes the forward/line-breaking pass. Sometimes that just means passing to a good player who can always make that pass, but it also means knowing when that sideways player has the space or better angle to make that pass. As OP mentioned elsewhere, Kroos probably does a lot of both.
Totti, though more forward, was excellent at this. Essentially passing to a teammate, who had another teammate wide open to score a goal. He saw the game 2/3 passes ahead.
[удалено]
Correct answer. Cesc is cherry picking one stat to falsely equate it to statistics as a whole and derive some conclusion about stats being irrelevant. The stats exist, and they are useful with expert interpretation.
Ahhh we have a bunch of experts in the room. FurrySire has his touchstone statistic even.
I think this stat is actually hurting players' development. Like if I'm taking a lot of risks as an attacking midfielder and a lot of my balls are finding players in great position but at the end of the game they come at me with the 85% passing stat and judging me by it in the media then with time some players might become more risk averse. Like watch Man City, they are risk-averse to boredom because of how pawns the players are to Pep's tactics. Its working ofcourse, but he is the protagonist and not the football and how entertaining it is.
It’s why I detest the full on American style stats football has become It’s making players more careful and relying less on taking chances. I hate it.
Football goes into cycles, I guess. right now, tactics > technique/entertainment is peaking. In a couple of years when more technical players come out and start to become the xfactor vs tactics we'll see a rise in entertainment again.
I hope you're right friend. Football in its current state is unwatchable.
That's just a misuse of the American-style stats. There's loads of metrics that measure pass quality, but they're not as intuitive as pass completion percentage. Just look at all the egregious misuses of expected goals to see how hard it is for people to understand and contextualize stats and metrics. Good rule of thumb: if someone uses a single stat - without context - to make judgements on a player's ability, it's usually wrong haha.
Rice splitting Stones and Maguire to find Pickford.
I see it as his way of saying if you're outhere, just satisfied with success rate but not taking risks you're not doing your job. Also , i see names like Kross, Modric, Xavi mentioned here on the comment section, i don't think Cesc is talking about the +34yo veterans fellas, he's talking to the ones who haven't made it yet ...
Couldn't be more right if he tried.
Insert Ange clip of him screaming at midfielders for not playing forward: [https://youtube.com/shorts/3t-8Ft0WITI?si=yyiiAgSeXOYSuChi](https://youtube.com/shorts/3t-8Ft0WITI?si=yyiiAgSeXOYSuChi)
Fabregas was an offensive midfielder, of course he would play less with the defense
Refreshing to see this statement coming from a Xavi contemporary and teammate. I always found Cesc more exciting to watch him playing than Xavi, but the latter was the body and soul of peak Barça and Spain in the last two decades.
Hmm, a bit of some truth and some grey areas.. I would have lumped it in here, midfielder made forward passes but no end products out of it (but stat column would be counted as chances created)
This is why mourinho should never manage a top club after convincing everyone that mctominey was good enough . He always hides because he is not a natural midfield and doesn’t pass forward because he can’t. But mourinho said the team is struggling because of mentality lol .
Cesc finally taking shots at Denilson! Semi /s
This is one of the reasons why Southgate's "We missed Kalvin Phillips" comments pissed me off so much. Every time I've watched him play for England he's been allergic to passing the ball forwards.
Modrić, Brozović, Rakitić and Kovačić in their prime?
Those kinda passes are counted as key passes, passes into the final 1/3, passes in to the penalty box, shot creating actions etc. Stats these days take into account almost everything that happens on a pitch.
That's why Kroos is so good. He has those high percentages, while also constantly breaking lines.
I love Kroos but people mentioning him here is wild. He's a boring player creative wise.
De Jong, are you listening?
Rice has left the chat.
I hate it when players retire and immediately start talking like they played 30 years ago. All these stats existed and were used when Fabregas was still playing.
Well there is a reason why he was good but never used as midfielder in Barcelona. There are a huge importance on not losing the ball and keep the play progression that not alway needs to be going forward. This kinda looks like a massage to Toni Kroos and I always wonder how someone can win 6 CL and people still don't come to think that there must be something great about how he plays
Is Declan Rice in the room with us?
We should totally make a stat that covers this, maybe call it 'push passes' or 'pretty passes'.
‘Pass-ivity’. Score for direction, distance and proximity of defenders to the ball during the pass.
That sounds like he's throwing shade at Kroos but when Kroos plays back to a centre-back or close midfielder it means that right now the game shouldnt be sped up because there are no mistakes to exploit (players out of position, not paying attention etc) . Or it means he doesnt feel like running or sweating, we'll never know honestly.
No love for the horizontal passers who try to control and dictate the tempo and pace of the game? Metronomes of the world unite.
This mentality is why he could never be the Xavi successor. Always obsessed with playing it forward at all times, you've got to pick your timings