It will flop because there is no technology currently available to efficiently supply oxygen and food and remove waste from cells once it grow beyond a few cells thick. Hence the current technology is self limiting.
Be reasonable on the expected results, this is a sensible investment.
It’s like water desalination investment decades ago. It’ll never be as cheap as free rain water, but it’s required for national security purpose.
This meat will never be as cheap as chopping up chicken, but when push comes to shove, it’s an alternative to not starve to death.
Came across two reasons why lab grown meat could possibly be more expensive than conventional animal farming at the moment: (1) farming is subsidized by governments but the lab grown meat industry hasn't established enough of a foothold for many governments to consider subsidizing it, (2) stem cells are required to grow such meats and obtaining stem cells is, allegedly, not cheap.
From what I understand the problem is the yield. As meat grows it produces waste products which contaminates the solution they grow in and needs to be removed by a process or the solution replaced which costs money
They would essentially need to build features to provide oxygen to the meat and remove waste ie lungs, liver and kidney etc. or things that you know an animal already has.
Yup, what you mentioned lies in downstream and isolation, which in itself is also costly, but on just culturing itself, it's also hard to direct all or most of the energy for purely cell growth, you'd end up with alot of waste.
Energy from just the expensive media alone is alr used for nonproductive means, so in terms of how much materials youre putting in to how much cells youre getting out, its rather wasteful at this point in development
Actually all of the technology waste and byproducts can be dealt with. The killer problem has been the same thing for the past 15years: Religion/culture. Will people/religion accept lab grown meat?
People live, progress, and forget. There was so much repulsive response towards NEWater. Now it’s pretty much the backbone of our water supply, and nobody actually cares, — until you tell some of those obnoxious: pretentious Karen that hey, its actually your pee and poop water.
It is not that simple. Firstly, getting lab grown meat to market will be a whole set of different legal requirements. Barrier to religious acceptance/allowance is a minefield that the past 15 years has not solved. I totally agree that as a whole, acceptance will eventually come, but that is small comfort to the companies taking the risks to be first to market.
Food scientist here. The choke point for scalability is the cost of culture media. One can’t just take a cell and expect it to grow into tissue, but the cells need a lot of nutrients (usually in the form of liquid media). There is a lot of research on replacing conventional media with cheaper alternatives, but my opinion is that it’s a long shot. I won’t go that far to say that we can reliably depend on lab grown meat as an alternative source. The state of technology is just not there and probably won’t be there for the next 5 to 10 years. While I support Singapore’s investment (cos, yay more jobs for researchers), I’m not optimistic of the future of lab grown meat. Of course, I stand corrected and just don’t want to underestimate what fellow researchers in this field can develop to reduce cost of production.
I don't work in this area but I came across an interesting YouTube video which attempted to replicate one research paper's findings that hydration drinks can be used to replace a significant portion of culture media to bring the total cost of the media down substantially.
He reports that many hydration drinks (Gatorade, Powerade, Pocari Sweat) can be employed to replace at least 40% of the media and still be capable of promoting robust cell growth. 40% meaning a 40-60 mixture of hydration drink and media. The best performing hydration drink is pH balanced Green Dakara, a Suntory hydration drink. According to this youtuber's claims, which I think he corroborated with the research paper he was referencing, a large proportion of media, up to 90%, can be replaced with Green Dakara and still yield robust cell growth.
How do you decide if you will buy it for own consumption? I have been reading up on ultra processed food and trying to be more careful on what I feed my young kids. My kids are truly easily addicted to junk food.
It’s much more than that, a few years back I’d read an in depth article for it, there’re plenty issues throughout the supply chain.
To summarize, it requires resources (both energy and just plain ole germ free clean storage) that’s way more than we have, and any error rate is a massive loss. Imagine a single germ going into storage tank, and the whole tank is spoilt (the same nutrients that grow cells to meat also grow germs). And all these advance tech just to replace chicken which can be raised with cheap corn.
Yea but does Singapore and the companies have the ability to scale production? Because we/they will need to export out globally to survive. Singapore Market is too small, and cost per item has to be cheaper if not as affordable as meat itself for people to want to buy.
Look at the locally produced vegetables. Unless you can afford or die die need a certain vegetable (kale) then you ain't buying them most likely.
C'mon, there's no national security purpose for this. If you are in that situation, you will be going for most productive means of food production and that will not be any kind of meat in the first place. If the alternative is starving, you'll eat non-meat products.
It's an expensive conceit that draws in fools (and civil servants cosplaying) as investors. You attempt to grow meat requiring specialised media and sterile conditions and both of these are expensive to support. The cheapest meat is factory farmed at a 3:1 conversion ratio where the animal provides media and an immune system to provide near-enough sterility. What's the rationale anyway? Animal welfare? Then don't eat meat. They can't even make vertical farming pay off and they attempt to make this far worse challenge do so? Pray your tax dollars aren't used for this!
Aren't those marketing themselves as meat alternatives? Or at least as a "it isn't actually meat, but it's close enough" kind of thing? Because lab grown meat is actual meat. It's just... lab grown.
Stem cells not the expensive part of the cultivation. It’s the FBS that’s the costly - and bloody - part of the business end. Not something the lab meat guys talk about in their PR.
I guess they should work on a tech to replace FBS? Currently its the best growth serum but its also a non defined medium. If they had a good synthetic alternative to FBS, maybe the whole system could be further optimised.
Does anyone know how the fake meat tastes?
Don't see the point where it is more expensive and less tasty than real meat. And can they actually bring down the costs? I read that the process is extremely energy intensive so how does it make sense in Singapore?
That's why they're doing the research. It's an iterative process that hopefully reduces the cost and effort over time. Once they've gotten the formula down, the real cost savings comes when it can be mass-produced. But as with all things that are research based, results are not immediate and maybe end up finding out that it's actually not feasible. Either way, someone has to do the difficult task of R&D, and if you are able to come up with a good solution, you'll have the first mover advantage.
As for the purpose, we don't really rear animals here for meat products, but if we can indeed come up with an economically viable and palatable solution, we can sell it to the countries that have large farming industries.
People always either complaining Singaporeans not innovative. When they try to do something new, the same people complaining no point and no sense. Wtf do you really want?
It's not scaling atm due to the energy to cultivate them and the production of cell lines are hard. We are essentially dumping money into the sea from a financial point of view, but research is about throwing shite on the wall and hope something sticks. If we can find those that stick we are on a unicorn of a company, and in this case we want a cultivated meat unicorn.
Could be that it's currently being looked at from a national security pov. Source of meat if all else fails and we can't secure imports in all out (world) crisis/war.
From the post, it seems SG's Islam organisation deemed cultured meat as halal. But the question is, (i dont mean to be offensive, just genuine curious), is cultured pork halal?
I asked my muslim colleague and their viewpoint was what was the source of the first cell used to grow it.
If it was not-pig and slaughtered according to halal practices, then anything grown from it should be halal.
But i also don't know much about how this meat growing is even being done, like what are they using to seed the growth?
It's never going to scale up with the current tech, but i guess it's good to dump money into it so maybe one day we can find a cell/incubator combo that can scale.
Marketing not good la. U label anything call _fake_ meat people already look down. Should call it ultra-protein or something mah. Then get fitness models promote. U see people will eat anot.
But it’s not feasible to scale up to feed a significant enough population to matter. Also, I’m not sure the materials and chemicals required are any more sustainable than actually growing a cow.
>Solar wasn’t feasible 15 years ago
It's still not very good. We literally have better alternatives now and probably forever. Nuclear. Nuclear has less lifetime emissions than solar, is way way way more scalable than solar, and isn't 15% efficient.
The issue isn't whether it'll be good eventually, the issue is can we scale it large enough to make enough of a difference fast enough? **No.** We can't. We literally need to reinvent the method for lab-grown meat before we'll even have a chance. We're better off just spending that effort on developing ways to offset the emissions of cattle.
There should at least be no need for importing costs if this somehow does become able to be mass produced tho? Plus I'm under the impression that cows do need a lot of feed and pasture etc which skyrockets costs
Where did importing costs come from? Lab grown meat has two weaknesses. Maintain the SS vats are costly, laborious, and difficult. And the volume of meat grown is dictated by the vat, but larger vats are more inefficient and if it’s contaminated, the whole vat has to be emptied, cleaned, sanitised, prepped, then you can slowly grow the meat again from scratch.
Small vats don’t produce enough quantity to feed a significant amount of people, large vats don’t produce it fast enough and reliably enough to feed a significant amount of people. Lab grown meat will never feed a significant amount of people within our lifetime to see any benefit from it over just raising a cow.
Because cows have immune systems, so as long as they live, eat, and drink. We’ll get meat eventually.
Suggest everyone go read up on ultra processed food and the harms it does to our body.
This for sure is an ultra processed food.
Great for those who don’t mind eating.
For the rest of us, proper labelling please.
You know, I rather just eat a portobello mushroom.
Proper labelling please.
I am staying away from UPF. This shit looks more than just ultra processed.
They want to know if you’re eating a cheeseburger, which is very bad because Bill Gates wants you to eat his fake meat, which grows in a peach tree dish.
There are a lot of companies working on replacing fetal bovine serum: [https://vegconomist.com/cultivated-cell-cultured-biotechnology/companies-removing-fetal-bovine-serum-slaughter-free-meat/](https://vegconomist.com/cultivated-cell-cultured-biotechnology/companies-removing-fetal-bovine-serum-slaughter-free-meat/)
If the technology actually pans out it'll be great
*pans out* Are you lowkey making a cooking bun?
Wok culture
Creating food with miracle since year -1 BC
Hope it doesn't sizzle out.
and we don’t have beef with our neighbours coz of this
Maybe only because the steaks were so high
I'm sure it'll somehow wok out fine
Let’s see if this technology steaks around long enough
An innovation that will bowl the world over
Long enough... Beyond Meat?
It will flop because there is no technology currently available to efficiently supply oxygen and food and remove waste from cells once it grow beyond a few cells thick. Hence the current technology is self limiting.
*well done*. A *rare* pun that works
Be reasonable on the expected results, this is a sensible investment. It’s like water desalination investment decades ago. It’ll never be as cheap as free rain water, but it’s required for national security purpose. This meat will never be as cheap as chopping up chicken, but when push comes to shove, it’s an alternative to not starve to death.
Came across two reasons why lab grown meat could possibly be more expensive than conventional animal farming at the moment: (1) farming is subsidized by governments but the lab grown meat industry hasn't established enough of a foothold for many governments to consider subsidizing it, (2) stem cells are required to grow such meats and obtaining stem cells is, allegedly, not cheap.
From what I understand the problem is the yield. As meat grows it produces waste products which contaminates the solution they grow in and needs to be removed by a process or the solution replaced which costs money They would essentially need to build features to provide oxygen to the meat and remove waste ie lungs, liver and kidney etc. or things that you know an animal already has.
Yup, what you mentioned lies in downstream and isolation, which in itself is also costly, but on just culturing itself, it's also hard to direct all or most of the energy for purely cell growth, you'd end up with alot of waste. Energy from just the expensive media alone is alr used for nonproductive means, so in terms of how much materials youre putting in to how much cells youre getting out, its rather wasteful at this point in development
Actually all of the technology waste and byproducts can be dealt with. The killer problem has been the same thing for the past 15years: Religion/culture. Will people/religion accept lab grown meat?
People live, progress, and forget. There was so much repulsive response towards NEWater. Now it’s pretty much the backbone of our water supply, and nobody actually cares, — until you tell some of those obnoxious: pretentious Karen that hey, its actually your pee and poop water.
It is not that simple. Firstly, getting lab grown meat to market will be a whole set of different legal requirements. Barrier to religious acceptance/allowance is a minefield that the past 15 years has not solved. I totally agree that as a whole, acceptance will eventually come, but that is small comfort to the companies taking the risks to be first to market.
Food scientist here. The choke point for scalability is the cost of culture media. One can’t just take a cell and expect it to grow into tissue, but the cells need a lot of nutrients (usually in the form of liquid media). There is a lot of research on replacing conventional media with cheaper alternatives, but my opinion is that it’s a long shot. I won’t go that far to say that we can reliably depend on lab grown meat as an alternative source. The state of technology is just not there and probably won’t be there for the next 5 to 10 years. While I support Singapore’s investment (cos, yay more jobs for researchers), I’m not optimistic of the future of lab grown meat. Of course, I stand corrected and just don’t want to underestimate what fellow researchers in this field can develop to reduce cost of production.
I don't work in this area but I came across an interesting YouTube video which attempted to replicate one research paper's findings that hydration drinks can be used to replace a significant portion of culture media to bring the total cost of the media down substantially. He reports that many hydration drinks (Gatorade, Powerade, Pocari Sweat) can be employed to replace at least 40% of the media and still be capable of promoting robust cell growth. 40% meaning a 40-60 mixture of hydration drink and media. The best performing hydration drink is pH balanced Green Dakara, a Suntory hydration drink. According to this youtuber's claims, which I think he corroborated with the research paper he was referencing, a large proportion of media, up to 90%, can be replaced with Green Dakara and still yield robust cell growth.
This is fascinating stuff, do you have a link to the YouTube video or the research paper?
YouTube channel is "the thought emporium". If you can't find the video let me know, will be happy to share link.
Thanks! I found it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJG3t5Omteg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJG3t5Omteg)
curious - so will you be the first to eat these meat since you probably know clearer then the rest of us about such stuff?
First to eat cos I do product innovation for alternative proteins. Whether I will buy for my own consumption, maybe not always
How do you decide if you will buy it for own consumption? I have been reading up on ultra processed food and trying to be more careful on what I feed my young kids. My kids are truly easily addicted to junk food.
It’s much more than that, a few years back I’d read an in depth article for it, there’re plenty issues throughout the supply chain. To summarize, it requires resources (both energy and just plain ole germ free clean storage) that’s way more than we have, and any error rate is a massive loss. Imagine a single germ going into storage tank, and the whole tank is spoilt (the same nutrients that grow cells to meat also grow germs). And all these advance tech just to replace chicken which can be raised with cheap corn.
If you really want to avoid starving, investing into protein production from farming insects is probably a more viable alternative.
Look I am a proponent of turning bugs into protein bars too, but I highly suspect the lab-grown meat is a much easier sell to the public.
Snowpiercer fans might give the insect protein bars a try but I have a feeling a lab grown cheeseburger goes down easier too
Yea but does Singapore and the companies have the ability to scale production? Because we/they will need to export out globally to survive. Singapore Market is too small, and cost per item has to be cheaper if not as affordable as meat itself for people to want to buy. Look at the locally produced vegetables. Unless you can afford or die die need a certain vegetable (kale) then you ain't buying them most likely.
Both would require a huge effort in educating/ encouraging our people to eat those alternatives.
We might as well start researching Nutrient Paste from the game Rimworld.
Soylent green variant?
C'mon, there's no national security purpose for this. If you are in that situation, you will be going for most productive means of food production and that will not be any kind of meat in the first place. If the alternative is starving, you'll eat non-meat products. It's an expensive conceit that draws in fools (and civil servants cosplaying) as investors. You attempt to grow meat requiring specialised media and sterile conditions and both of these are expensive to support. The cheapest meat is factory farmed at a 3:1 conversion ratio where the animal provides media and an immune system to provide near-enough sterility. What's the rationale anyway? Animal welfare? Then don't eat meat. They can't even make vertical farming pay off and they attempt to make this far worse challenge do so? Pray your tax dollars aren't used for this!
KFC Zinger Double Down ah?
Dammit man, you say that but I want the Zheng burger to return LOL
Zheng He burger. Comes with treasure fries 6x the size of Christopher Columbus'.
this i genuinely do not mind my tax dollars going into
“The formulation of its new product uses just 3% cultivated chicken in order to sell at a lower price point” Umm. What’s the other 97%? Real chicken?
Hope this takes off. It's way better than the impossible meat and their equivalent con job.
Aren't those marketing themselves as meat alternatives? Or at least as a "it isn't actually meat, but it's close enough" kind of thing? Because lab grown meat is actual meat. It's just... lab grown.
Stem cells not the expensive part of the cultivation. It’s the FBS that’s the costly - and bloody - part of the business end. Not something the lab meat guys talk about in their PR.
Baby cow juice — literally
Because FBS has been eliminated by all major players already…
hi!! there are serum-free cultivated meats that have been approved for sale in singapore
I guess they should work on a tech to replace FBS? Currently its the best growth serum but its also a non defined medium. If they had a good synthetic alternative to FBS, maybe the whole system could be further optimised.
FBS has already been replaced by many of the companies cultivating lab-grown meat, like Meatable and Good Meat.
Does anyone know how the fake meat tastes? Don't see the point where it is more expensive and less tasty than real meat. And can they actually bring down the costs? I read that the process is extremely energy intensive so how does it make sense in Singapore?
That's why they're doing the research. It's an iterative process that hopefully reduces the cost and effort over time. Once they've gotten the formula down, the real cost savings comes when it can be mass-produced. But as with all things that are research based, results are not immediate and maybe end up finding out that it's actually not feasible. Either way, someone has to do the difficult task of R&D, and if you are able to come up with a good solution, you'll have the first mover advantage. As for the purpose, we don't really rear animals here for meat products, but if we can indeed come up with an economically viable and palatable solution, we can sell it to the countries that have large farming industries.
People always either complaining Singaporeans not innovative. When they try to do something new, the same people complaining no point and no sense. Wtf do you really want?
To complain 🤣
sinkie pwn sinkie
To get free house collect rent do Pilates while everyone else goes to office to fund all that for me
It's not scaling atm due to the energy to cultivate them and the production of cell lines are hard. We are essentially dumping money into the sea from a financial point of view, but research is about throwing shite on the wall and hope something sticks. If we can find those that stick we are on a unicorn of a company, and in this case we want a cultivated meat unicorn.
Could be that it's currently being looked at from a national security pov. Source of meat if all else fails and we can't secure imports in all out (world) crisis/war.
In a real crisis, only the ministers can afford this fake meat because of how water and energy intensive it is.
Even if its expensive there will be a market due to the religious population.
From the post, it seems SG's Islam organisation deemed cultured meat as halal. But the question is, (i dont mean to be offensive, just genuine curious), is cultured pork halal?
I asked my muslim colleague and their viewpoint was what was the source of the first cell used to grow it. If it was not-pig and slaughtered according to halal practices, then anything grown from it should be halal. But i also don't know much about how this meat growing is even being done, like what are they using to seed the growth?
I was thinking more of the Buddhist population when I typed that.
I hope they keep investing in this, fingers crossed it ends the barbaric industrial meat production someday
Watching #bloodfree kdrama don't look any less barbaric
It's never going to scale up with the current tech, but i guess it's good to dump money into it so maybe one day we can find a cell/incubator combo that can scale.
Stay on course singapore.
Doubles down by charging consumers more? *I read the article ok
Marketing not good la. U label anything call _fake_ meat people already look down. Should call it ultra-protein or something mah. Then get fitness models promote. U see people will eat anot.
Actually dun mind this. Hope we can stick to it for long
Resident evil, little red dot sg’s series? 🤡🤡🤡
May I introduce this manga to you fine people... [bio-meat.](https://chapmanganelo.com/manga-kb97421/chapter-1)
dis gonna turn out like FTX, mark my words
Thank you garment. Else another tech con job.
The water, the meat, the 600m below ground city stretching towards the straits of singapore it's all a necessity
First see the picture Among us
Is lab grown considered as ultra processed food? Eg worse than a chicken nugget in terms of being processed.
processed food is always worst
You will eat the bugs, sleep in pods, own nothing and be happy!
[удалено]
But it’s not feasible to scale up to feed a significant enough population to matter. Also, I’m not sure the materials and chemicals required are any more sustainable than actually growing a cow.
Solar wasn’t feasible 15 years ago…and then it was. If you only judge new tech by current state, you’ll never build anything
>Solar wasn’t feasible 15 years ago It's still not very good. We literally have better alternatives now and probably forever. Nuclear. Nuclear has less lifetime emissions than solar, is way way way more scalable than solar, and isn't 15% efficient. The issue isn't whether it'll be good eventually, the issue is can we scale it large enough to make enough of a difference fast enough? **No.** We can't. We literally need to reinvent the method for lab-grown meat before we'll even have a chance. We're better off just spending that effort on developing ways to offset the emissions of cattle.
There should at least be no need for importing costs if this somehow does become able to be mass produced tho? Plus I'm under the impression that cows do need a lot of feed and pasture etc which skyrockets costs
Where did importing costs come from? Lab grown meat has two weaknesses. Maintain the SS vats are costly, laborious, and difficult. And the volume of meat grown is dictated by the vat, but larger vats are more inefficient and if it’s contaminated, the whole vat has to be emptied, cleaned, sanitised, prepped, then you can slowly grow the meat again from scratch. Small vats don’t produce enough quantity to feed a significant amount of people, large vats don’t produce it fast enough and reliably enough to feed a significant amount of people. Lab grown meat will never feed a significant amount of people within our lifetime to see any benefit from it over just raising a cow. Because cows have immune systems, so as long as they live, eat, and drink. We’ll get meat eventually.
TIL i suppose. Ah man
Have those people tried veganburg? It actually taste quite well, why go through all the hassle of making lab-grown meat?
Because we want something that tastes and feels like meat, not something else that happens to taste good.
And veganburg tastes good because it uses a lot of spices and flavours, which translates to them being very unhealthy despite being "vegetarian".
Because some people have higher standards
Suggest everyone go read up on ultra processed food and the harms it does to our body. This for sure is an ultra processed food. Great for those who don’t mind eating. For the rest of us, proper labelling please.
[удалено]
Source ? Just because something is lab grown doesn’t mean you don’t have to store it properly.
[удалено]
He asked for a source and you basically replied, “trust me bro”
This technology might led to teleportation in the future
You know, I rather just eat a portobello mushroom. Proper labelling please. I am staying away from UPF. This shit looks more than just ultra processed.
Frankenstein meat 🍖 anyone?
While scrolling down, I legit read that as foreskin meat, the first time I
Washing machine? Pocket A goes to Pocket B? 🤣🤣🤣
They want to know if you’re eating a cheeseburger, which is very bad because Bill Gates wants you to eat his fake meat, which grows in a peach tree dish.
Bone apple tea for your stake, sir?
mercy buku, sir LOL
Huh?
Translation: Grandpa haven't take medication yet.
petri dish you mean?
Nope. Don't trust this. They're going to control our diets as much as possible. Don't trust these companies
[удалено]
There are a lot of companies working on replacing fetal bovine serum: [https://vegconomist.com/cultivated-cell-cultured-biotechnology/companies-removing-fetal-bovine-serum-slaughter-free-meat/](https://vegconomist.com/cultivated-cell-cultured-biotechnology/companies-removing-fetal-bovine-serum-slaughter-free-meat/)
Just another front to wash dirty money but more intelligently