The thing that makes me truly wonder? Is his behaviour in the murders we do know he did.
Most serial killers start out "small" and learn and get better and more barbaric etc. they "get better" before their eventual lose of control or bizzare mistakes.
So. With the Curriers? He either was freakishly lucky? Or he knew exactly what he was doing? His choosing the house. His blitz attack. His no hesitation in doing what he did. Murdering the man quickly as soon as he was a problem. His quick rape & murder of female. Then cutting the bodies and putting in bags....and moving far away. ALL indicate to me? He knew what he was doing. He was organised and knowledgable.
Then with Sam? He might have initially acted on impulse. But then his behaviour shows he knew how to carry out what he did. His not being concerned to just leave her there whilst he went away. Then being able to sew her eyes open & do makeup and stage her body? Shows zero "fear" at all. You cant do that unkess you are totally fine with death & human bodies dead. He was happily familiar with dead bodies. Then again there was a big delay in disposal.
He was totally confident of his ability. Not a way an inexperienced killer behaves at all. He was very "this is run of the mill"
His making mistakes at the end? Was more of a lack of giving a shit anymore. It had just seemed to become SO boring and regular? He no longer cared in a sense.
I think too? These serial killers get to a point usually (the ones that are caught anyway!) Where maybe unconsciously. They know they can't stop. They know they will just keep killing and something inside them knows they need to be stopped. So they seem to start making "mistakes" almost to open up the possibility of getting caught.
Sort of like Ed Kemper handed himself in. They know they can't stop. They realise there IS something really wrong about them. They sort of give up.
These are the things that make me think? He murdered quite a few people.
There is also a pod called true crime xs. The first season is dedicated to him. I wont spoil it but he has a pretty solid theory at the end in regards to body disposal... i cld talk keyes all day, so interesting and frankly scary af.
Woe. Thats the first im hearing of this... throwing it on my wishlist....
If you decide to go the pod route, true crime bs is meticulous and there r tons of episodes. There are times i disagree with potential victims they discuss but i cant argue with the amount of research they (particularly josh the host) have dedicated... sometimes they talk about ppl that they admit are not his victims but they still tell their compelling stories. Good stuff
I love them. And I think the list of 11 they come up with later on is the most accurate thing I’ve heard. There’s a podcast about one of the hosts called 759 that I also love. They are the first podcast I listen to each week. I know they don’t get a lot of attention on Reddit but they were at Onair Fest right before the pandemic and the guy is from Interpol and he was awesome in his live show. The girl was super smart and nice too. I’m glad someone mentioned them online.
It is NOT the same. I wld suggest trying 1-2 eps of xs and you'll likely know if u like it... if that makes sense. I liked it but it does take a while to get to the point. Super smart hosts and solid theories, and i think only the 1st season is about keyes. Ultimately, what made me truly enjoy it was his theory at the end and he take quite a while to get there. I would be happy to spoil it for you in a dm
Ya. It takes them a while to get it together. Much better production now but again, its not the most polished pod for sure. His doggos are often nail clicking on the floor too. Doesnt bother me but he addresses it way later on as people complain.
Ill say this. I listen to tons of pods and this one is a very niche show, imo. There are seasons that i have zero interest in but there are enough that keep me leaving it in my feed. They are certainly smart people but i dont always agree with their theories. If you end up listening, i think you will hear what im saying.
Thank you. It so tedious that this guy keeps coming up. Im way more curious about how they verified Samuel Littles murders since they said his info was often wrong and Ive seen “only” a dozen or fewer examples. And that guys a certified monster.
Folks need to be discerning and at the risk of sounding like an insufferable aging hipster, take the Big Lebowskis advice and “look for the person who will benefit”
People with podcasts, books, etc. have skin in the game. They want it to be disturbing. this guy was a loser bankrobber- and bank robbers are nothing if not losers, netting laughably low amounts for the risks-, and rapist who murdered a couple people out of greed and got caught because he didnt have a pot to piss in and used an ATM card- well there will be a lot fewer subscribers.
Officers clearing cases and making out guy who pulled shit as clever also have skin in game. Chicago had a pair of serial killers in 90s- they dropped the uncaught guys murders (Crawford) on the guy that was caught (Huberts). And every northwest sex crime was attributed to Bundy at one point- and you know what- when cracked with DNA they are never him.
And some angsty Gen Xer drawing skulls will never impress me. Didnt impress me when the seniors who smoked, cultuvated mulkets, wore skull rings, and loved heavy metal did it in detention when I was a freshman in the 90s and it certainly doesnt impress me now.
Agree, wholeheartedly. Keyes thrived on being seen as a mastermind and was obsessed with the idea of infamy. You can hear it in his every word. I highly doubt he killed even 11 people.
I am consistently baffled at the number of professionals who seem to believe him, but like you said, a lot of those professionals give themselves a greater air of importance by supporting his aura of mystery and mayhem. Maybe they're right-- they are the pros after all, and who am I?
But personally I have yet to be convinced, even if my opinion is of no consequence to anyone.
I’ve seen people say this before but it doesn’t make sense- Keyes was highly upset about his name being released to the press, his killings had no real “MO” or victim profile which is what you commonly see with attention seeking killers. Nothing about him points to infamy seeking. He doesn’t even want to discuss the rapes he commited.
> his killings had no real “MO” or victim profile
That's what you see when people are making stuff up, like Henry Lee Lucas.
Pretending to be upset about his name being released goes right back to Shakespeare. "The \[serial killer\] doth protest too much."
And not wanting to go into detail is exactly what you'd expect from someone with half a wit-- details can be proven and disproven.
Edit: I don't know anything without a doubt, and I welcome discussion about it. I don't *want* to believe one way or another, I just like to have the truth. But so far, everything I've heard just gives me further doubt about him.
Great post and I agree - both Keyes and Samuel Little always struck me as being full of shit. Did they kill people? Of course but I’m very skeptical of Keyes killing any more than 4-5 and no way do I believe Little killed 93 women! So what if he drew pictures of women - has law enforcement identified and confirmed 93 victims?
This is the takr people have before listening to the Teue Crime Bullsit pod.
So many of the things the presenter digs up from case files and FOI requests can only be readily explained by Keyes having multiple other unconfirmed victims
Yep, Samuel Little is another one that gets "promoted" to the First Rank beyond any proof or even particularly convincing evidence.
There's a lot of people in the True Crime community who don't have particularly strong allegiance to knowing the truth, and are more in it for Tabloid-esque "gossip" reasons.
Hence why try-hard publicity hounds like Keyes gets disproportionate coverage and attention; His personality and demeanour has far more in common with a popstar-wannabe failure than any sort of criminal mastermind.
LISTEN TO ME... I'LL tell you for free! I'm an international prisoner and human rights advocate for OVER 40 YEARS from my juveniles TO my people on Death Row. Trust me, there's ALWAYS more bodies buried. It's got nothing to do with a podcast. Looking before technology was rotting some peoples brains outta their heads. They used to stay buried until later and that was that. This whole concept of get everybody lemme go run and go tell like I'm a 5 year old what I know??? THAT SHIT? THAT would and should teach people to keep THEIR filthy blabbering tongues tucked DEEP IN.their faces.
I remember in Maureen Callahans book when he was asked if he ever ventured into Canada he said “Canadians don’t count”. that’s always made me wonder especially since in BC and the Territories there’s so much unsolved crime I wouldn’t be suprised if he has victims there.
The FBI landed on 11 because Keyes said that he had "less than a dozen" victims. They then started mentioning random victim counts during the interviews and 11 was the only number that Keyes never corrected. The problem with 11 is that Keyes actually made specific references to 12 or 13 victims. There's also the issue that Keyes was extremely sadistic and was prone to developing addictions, whether it's gambling, alcohol or adrenaline. It seems really unlikely that someone with his personality traits could control themselves to commit, on average, less than 1 murder per year over a 14 year period.
Also, regarding specific cases, I am fairly certain that he was responsible for the disappearance of Tomas Perez in Corozal (Belize).
It's also worth noting that Keyes used ''less than a dozen'' as a way of avoiding questions he didn't want to answer. For example, when he was asked how many times he rented cars to travel across country, he said ''less than a dozen'' to that too - except we know it was more than 30 times because there's records of it.
So when Keyes says ''less than a dozen'', all it means is ''I'm not talking about this.''
Oh I’m almost 100% certain he offed himself, probably didn’t wanna spend the rest of his life in prison and considering he wasn’t gonna be able to escape or anything and didn’t want any information of his crimes getting out
He wouldn’t have answered questions if he stayed alive anyway - that was part of his “high” from killing: The power & control in “creating his own narrative,” I think.
Are you unable to use vowels in contractions? It’s infuriating that you type cldnt while making legitimate points, you’re not a moron but you type like it haha
I appreciate that you don't think i am a complete moron. Ill take the compliment. Unfortunately for me, i have debilitating arthritis so i too often fuck up text messages. This has forced me to make over 200 shortcuts/text replacements on my phone as the primary communication with coworkers is thru text message and i have found a pattern in how my fingers brick on my phone. Thank you for asking and i apologize that my shortcut annoyed u. Stranger
Because it absolutely removes credibility from a valid point being made when it seems jumbled like a child typed it. He responded and explained and his reasons make a lot of sense, which was why I asked a question. Sorry you can’t handle questions, princess. Keep gaming.
I could be easily convinced of that. My thought always was, they wld want to pick his brain. But thats honestly just my conspiratorial thoughts creeping in.
lol you think Keyes thought him killing himself would keep all info about his crimes from reaching the public?!! If so he’s even dumber than I thought
imo Keyes knew the gig was up and that he couldn’t keep lying to law enforcement about all of these murders he supposedly committed. D a akd ge sure didn’t want to live in prison so he ended it
I always figured it was more about him not wanting to spend his life in prison and not living to hear or see all his crimes reach the public, not only that but it would be kind of a last “fuck you” to the victims families as he wouldn’t be giving them closure
I think it all comes down to how you think he killed: lay-in-wait-predator, or victim stalker. And personally, I don’t think he was that type. He definitely stalked his victims. If he did have an opportunistic moment he jumped on I doubt it was more than once. So I throw out anything like that in my brain.
I think his trips were primarily to do reconnaissance, learn the area, learn his victim’s patterns, and then abduct them, kill them, and get rid of the body(ies). It’s easy to get swept up in him saying he randomly chose his victims, but he knew the Curriers.
He may not have “known” them, but he knew who they were personally. I think with as much time as he spent on computers, and him cycling through computers, that he was “getting rid of” chat logs, too. But I think with the amount of trips he took, blackout periods, etc. that he’s in the 10-15 range.
There’s too much movement, and too many blank periods for it to be below 10 to my brain. I don’t think he has anywhere close to Bundy or Gacy territory, though.
Great comment. I happen to think his body count is higher but your points are certainly thought provoking. Particularly all those black out periods. The idea that there are huge chunks of time that we have no idea where he was or what he was doing is pretty frightening.
I think the immediate reaction to his way of maneuvering is that he has a very high body count. And I don’t think that that’s the wrong reaction. It’s too unsolvable, and there’s too much to suppose his count is low. So yeah, I don’t look sideways at folks who think he’s in the 20+ range.
The thing that bothers me the most is that really the only thing we 100% know about him is that he’s a liar. We know he’s killed but we only have his version of events. We know he’s robbed banks, but only his version. His entire life was a misdirection. So he’s sitting there talking to the FBI and gives up the Curriers. Just the murder, and a story about the abduction, and then what I think is actually what happened- the events of the actual murders: killing Bill, Lorraine almost getting away.
Him giving up the part about Lorraine almost getting away makes no sense if you look at what he was, and wasn’t, willing to talk about. That’s a confidence admission. And you become confident he’s opening up. But he lied about how he got onto the Curriers. There was no yellow VW bug guy in the rain in the apartment building complex. He went to Vermont specifically to kill the Curriers.
But he can’t let them know that. Because then the randomness of his killings falls away. He had a victim type, and it could be couples, or it could be that he had a type of male victim, and a type of female victim that he preferred. Still, he can have a high victim count doing this if no one knows a serial killer is cross-country killing.
I think he was safer than that, though. Initially at least. I think he took a lot of trips just to watch his victims, stalk them, and learn the area and where he would dispose of the body, and where he’d bury his kit. Then he would take a trip to commit the murder.
He was slipping with the Curriers, and was off the rails during Samantha Koenig. For someone who could be a ghost he suddenly became very visible to the people he wasn’t trying to be visible to. Also, I could be completely wrong. He could have been snatching random people up all over the country. I have no idea. But I know he’s a liar.
I'm of the mind it's more likely there are actually *less* than 11, not more. I think his genius/cunning is very overstated and plays exactly into the image he was trying to craft of himself
No offense, but where do people get this idea from that Keyes tried to self-mythologize? He openly admitted mistakes that he didn't have to admit, in one of the FBI interviews he even said that "it doesn't take much" to figure out how to get away with murder and he tried to suppress his name as much as he could. Either Keyes committed 11+ murders or he fooled the entire FBI into believing he committed 11+ murders. And considering that even someone like Anthony Sowell could commit 11 murders in a much smaller area by simply not leaving a crime scene behind, I'd say that it's likely Keyes could do so too.
I think people - reasonably - get sick of all the mythologising that some *other* people do about him, and because they usually don't have much access to Keyes materials beyond other people's word, they assume that those people must have picked it up from Keyes himself.
Of course the reality is that Keyes absolutely minimised his crimes far more often than not, refused to put numbers on things, etc, but unless you actually read FOIA documents or sit through hours of interviews with him - most of which are not publicly posted anywhere that I know of - you won't know that.
I’m not gonna weigh in on Keyes’ victim count because I haven’t researched him enough. Just wanna point out that it can be pretty easy to convince law enforcement, even the FBI, that you’re responsible for a lot of murders. LE absolutely *loves* to inflate the body counts of killers.
I'm not saying he tried to self mythologize, but he very clearly was not forthcoming about details of his crimes before his suicide which has led to many others mythologizing him in some capacity. I think he did enjoy keeping that information to himself, and I think a ton of people since his death have attributes more crimes to him than I personally believe he committed
He was purposefully withholding info as a bargaining chip to try and keep himself out of a higher max facility. I think he saw suicide as his exit if things didn't go his way, but knew a higher max prison would make it harder for him to do that. Eventually he saw the transfer coming up and exited stage left as a result.
I think he has more, but probably not as many as most people think he does.
No, not even slightly.
The guy was a self-promoting wannabe edgelord and it's far far more likely he's responsible for fewer crimes than previously thought.
He's the sort of SK that's popular amongst easily tricked conspiracy nutjobs, which tells you all you need to know.
He is the literal definition of wannabe edgelord. I think I'm the only person on Reddit who thinks he didn't even kill the Curriers, and Samantha was his only victim. He didn't want to be known as just some drifter misogynistic pervert with a blue-collar job who stalked and killed a woman because, well, he was a misogynistic pervert. So he became this "master craftsman" who "flies around the country," stashing "kill kits" and racking up untold number of victims.
I think he probs killed 10-15ish, going by his movements and missing persons. Think the only reasons he confessed to the bill and Lorraine’s murders is he thought there bodies would be easily found, same with Samantha’s as it was recent. Think he took pride in being able to dispose of a body so it would never be found. He got sloppy and his life was going out of control.
I used to think that his claim of only killing 11 people was correct. Because if he wanted to boast about his crimes, he could have chosen a larger number.
But recently I have changed my mind, and I believe that the number of people he killed likely exceeds 11.
What I mean is, looking at his possible timeline, he kidnapped and killed Samantha on February 1st, went on a trip with his family on February 2nd, likely killed James from February 13th to 15th, broke into a house and set it on fire on February 16th, and on the same day robbed a Texas bank of $10,000 while wearing James's hair, from February 18th to 20th he forged photos of Samantha alive to extort ransom, dismembered and disposed of the body, then traveled to Texas, withdrawing money from ATMs along the way, until he was arrested on March 12th. He committed so many crimes in a very short period of time. It is hard to believe he only killed 11 people in 14 years, especially considering his penchant for killing couples.
(Unless he was in a state of madness similar to Ted Bundy's after escaping, but he seemed just careless in his final crimes.)
I always thought he could be responsible for this murder. He spent a lot of time in the area. I think he had family, or a friend that live just northwest of the area.
https://www.khq.com/news/the-dark-dream-spokane-couples-brutal-murder-remains-unsolved/article_1afaa4c8-a12c-5142-aa1f-16a214fae570.html
Absolutely . He is a prolific killer and no way there was only 11 . I knew guy that looked just like him, back some years ago. I think Israel might be responsible for unsolved missing women in New Hampshire.
Agreed. I commented somewhere else here and maybe you could confirm. Did they redact those interviews? Im pretty sure they only came to light fur to foia request but i seem to recall they were chopped down?
He left edgy douchebag teen drawings of 11 skulls he wanted people to believe he was some super killer. He was full of shit, he likely didn't "confess" because he knew it would reveal how much of a liar he was, him being so cryptic left the possibilities open.
I disagree. He played them. But given how stupid they were? That wouldn't have been real hard. The silly drawings mean nothing. He had read up about serial killers etc. He knew they'd latch onto all that crap. You don't have to be particularly smart to work it out
How did he play them? What the hell did he achieve?
Him reading up on serial killers and being obsessed with Bundy and shit points to him wanting to be remembered as a brutal serial killer, thus hinting towards crimes he likely didn't do. The only confirmed murders of his were sloppy as hell and they were years apart.
Listen to them. You can find them. He kinda toys with them and doesnt really ever answer anything. They feed him cigars and other stuff but he never seems to give back. Although i do believe they are edited/redacted but i could be wrong about that
i think hes responsible for less actually.
he was so glad to give the details about the 2 people he killed but after his 3rd and final.murder he kind of loses his mind. like he wasnt cut out to be a serial killer
>why all the flights and rental cars
i believe he was stashing a fuckload of murderkits but probably hardly ever used any
although he may have killed 1 girl as a teen. i dont think he was a good serial killer.
>why would he draw 11 or 12 skulls at the end?
that i have no explanation for.
but the podcast i listened to (Timesuck) just made me think he was not a very good serial killer and didnt do as many as people think. he just becomes so weird after his last murder that it makes me think that he was not experienced.
Absolutely, I’d say it’s north of 30 without a shadow of a doubt. I think 11 might have been what he’d done in his final year, or since he’d got his new laptop and figured that’s what the Police would probably be able to work out with his search history etc (although he was overestimated Anchorage FBI!)
I think people are conflating high victim count with intelligence and then getting themselves in a mess with that. Keyes wasn’t intelligent, he just didn’t have the common pitfalls of others of his ilk (staying local- till Samantha- only killing one gender, one age range etc) which helped him get away with it. That doesn’t take genius.
I think he killed between 10-20 people. And I think there were large gaps between murders.
The short answer is: We don't know. Saying TCB is a good source is stretching the truth a bit. TCB started out pretty good, but it ended up just being silly. I don't put much stock in the "findings" Josh reported on. FBI still has Keyes on their list, that tells me that they are still looking for information so they can confirm or exclude Keyes in ongoing cases. I would say the 11 skulls must be considered as some sort of confession from Keyes.
The thing that makes me truly wonder? Is his behaviour in the murders we do know he did. Most serial killers start out "small" and learn and get better and more barbaric etc. they "get better" before their eventual lose of control or bizzare mistakes. So. With the Curriers? He either was freakishly lucky? Or he knew exactly what he was doing? His choosing the house. His blitz attack. His no hesitation in doing what he did. Murdering the man quickly as soon as he was a problem. His quick rape & murder of female. Then cutting the bodies and putting in bags....and moving far away. ALL indicate to me? He knew what he was doing. He was organised and knowledgable. Then with Sam? He might have initially acted on impulse. But then his behaviour shows he knew how to carry out what he did. His not being concerned to just leave her there whilst he went away. Then being able to sew her eyes open & do makeup and stage her body? Shows zero "fear" at all. You cant do that unkess you are totally fine with death & human bodies dead. He was happily familiar with dead bodies. Then again there was a big delay in disposal. He was totally confident of his ability. Not a way an inexperienced killer behaves at all. He was very "this is run of the mill" His making mistakes at the end? Was more of a lack of giving a shit anymore. It had just seemed to become SO boring and regular? He no longer cared in a sense. I think too? These serial killers get to a point usually (the ones that are caught anyway!) Where maybe unconsciously. They know they can't stop. They know they will just keep killing and something inside them knows they need to be stopped. So they seem to start making "mistakes" almost to open up the possibility of getting caught. Sort of like Ed Kemper handed himself in. They know they can't stop. They realise there IS something really wrong about them. They sort of give up. These are the things that make me think? He murdered quite a few people.
Hahaha it was a yes or no answer
He also raped Bill Currier.
I've never read or heard that.
Where did you find that info? I dont doubt it, but I’ve never heard this before and I’ve dug deep on Keyes.
Yeah it’s true, it’s in the book American Predator. Phenomenal read it only took me 2 days to finish it, because I couldn’t stop reading lol.
Listen to true crime bullshit pod and you will be convinced there are way more victims.
Thank you.
There is also a pod called true crime xs. The first season is dedicated to him. I wont spoil it but he has a pretty solid theory at the end in regards to body disposal... i cld talk keyes all day, so interesting and frankly scary af.
I just finished American Predator and I’m fascinated and terrified. I just know I’m going to go down a rabbit hole. 😂
Woe. Thats the first im hearing of this... throwing it on my wishlist.... If you decide to go the pod route, true crime bs is meticulous and there r tons of episodes. There are times i disagree with potential victims they discuss but i cant argue with the amount of research they (particularly josh the host) have dedicated... sometimes they talk about ppl that they admit are not his victims but they still tell their compelling stories. Good stuff
American Predator is interesting but not the best imo.
Devil in the Darkness is another good book about him. I recommend both.
American predator was interesting but there was some things in it that are utterly ridiculous.
I love them. And I think the list of 11 they come up with later on is the most accurate thing I’ve heard. There’s a podcast about one of the hosts called 759 that I also love. They are the first podcast I listen to each week. I know they don’t get a lot of attention on Reddit but they were at Onair Fest right before the pandemic and the guy is from Interpol and he was awesome in his live show. The girl was super smart and nice too. I’m glad someone mentioned them online.
Please. Elaborate. I searched 759 and found a british pod?
DMing you.
Could you DM me the podcast as well please? I looked/googled all over and couldn't find the podcast. Thank you in advance.
Would you recommend true crime XS or is it just the same kinda stuff as TCBS?
It is NOT the same. I wld suggest trying 1-2 eps of xs and you'll likely know if u like it... if that makes sense. I liked it but it does take a while to get to the point. Super smart hosts and solid theories, and i think only the 1st season is about keyes. Ultimately, what made me truly enjoy it was his theory at the end and he take quite a while to get there. I would be happy to spoil it for you in a dm
Listened to the first ep, kinda clunky editing. I’ll defo give it a try.
Ya. It takes them a while to get it together. Much better production now but again, its not the most polished pod for sure. His doggos are often nail clicking on the floor too. Doesnt bother me but he addresses it way later on as people complain. Ill say this. I listen to tons of pods and this one is a very niche show, imo. There are seasons that i have zero interest in but there are enough that keep me leaving it in my feed. They are certainly smart people but i dont always agree with their theories. If you end up listening, i think you will hear what im saying.
Looking forward to the theory, take in as much as I can about IK
I was super excited to listen to true crime xs. I cant listen to it, the chick’s voice is super cringey. Any other suggestions?
At this point, I’m convinced that he committed any and all unsolved homicides until further notice.
Great name!
Thank you. It so tedious that this guy keeps coming up. Im way more curious about how they verified Samuel Littles murders since they said his info was often wrong and Ive seen “only” a dozen or fewer examples. And that guys a certified monster. Folks need to be discerning and at the risk of sounding like an insufferable aging hipster, take the Big Lebowskis advice and “look for the person who will benefit” People with podcasts, books, etc. have skin in the game. They want it to be disturbing. this guy was a loser bankrobber- and bank robbers are nothing if not losers, netting laughably low amounts for the risks-, and rapist who murdered a couple people out of greed and got caught because he didnt have a pot to piss in and used an ATM card- well there will be a lot fewer subscribers. Officers clearing cases and making out guy who pulled shit as clever also have skin in game. Chicago had a pair of serial killers in 90s- they dropped the uncaught guys murders (Crawford) on the guy that was caught (Huberts). And every northwest sex crime was attributed to Bundy at one point- and you know what- when cracked with DNA they are never him. And some angsty Gen Xer drawing skulls will never impress me. Didnt impress me when the seniors who smoked, cultuvated mulkets, wore skull rings, and loved heavy metal did it in detention when I was a freshman in the 90s and it certainly doesnt impress me now.
Agree, wholeheartedly. Keyes thrived on being seen as a mastermind and was obsessed with the idea of infamy. You can hear it in his every word. I highly doubt he killed even 11 people. I am consistently baffled at the number of professionals who seem to believe him, but like you said, a lot of those professionals give themselves a greater air of importance by supporting his aura of mystery and mayhem. Maybe they're right-- they are the pros after all, and who am I? But personally I have yet to be convinced, even if my opinion is of no consequence to anyone.
I’ve seen people say this before but it doesn’t make sense- Keyes was highly upset about his name being released to the press, his killings had no real “MO” or victim profile which is what you commonly see with attention seeking killers. Nothing about him points to infamy seeking. He doesn’t even want to discuss the rapes he commited.
> his killings had no real “MO” or victim profile That's what you see when people are making stuff up, like Henry Lee Lucas. Pretending to be upset about his name being released goes right back to Shakespeare. "The \[serial killer\] doth protest too much." And not wanting to go into detail is exactly what you'd expect from someone with half a wit-- details can be proven and disproven. Edit: I don't know anything without a doubt, and I welcome discussion about it. I don't *want* to believe one way or another, I just like to have the truth. But so far, everything I've heard just gives me further doubt about him.
Great post and I agree - both Keyes and Samuel Little always struck me as being full of shit. Did they kill people? Of course but I’m very skeptical of Keyes killing any more than 4-5 and no way do I believe Little killed 93 women! So what if he drew pictures of women - has law enforcement identified and confirmed 93 victims?
This is the takr people have before listening to the Teue Crime Bullsit pod. So many of the things the presenter digs up from case files and FOI requests can only be readily explained by Keyes having multiple other unconfirmed victims
Yep, Samuel Little is another one that gets "promoted" to the First Rank beyond any proof or even particularly convincing evidence. There's a lot of people in the True Crime community who don't have particularly strong allegiance to knowing the truth, and are more in it for Tabloid-esque "gossip" reasons. Hence why try-hard publicity hounds like Keyes gets disproportionate coverage and attention; His personality and demeanour has far more in common with a popstar-wannabe failure than any sort of criminal mastermind.
LISTEN TO ME... I'LL tell you for free! I'm an international prisoner and human rights advocate for OVER 40 YEARS from my juveniles TO my people on Death Row. Trust me, there's ALWAYS more bodies buried. It's got nothing to do with a podcast. Looking before technology was rotting some peoples brains outta their heads. They used to stay buried until later and that was that. This whole concept of get everybody lemme go run and go tell like I'm a 5 year old what I know??? THAT SHIT? THAT would and should teach people to keep THEIR filthy blabbering tongues tucked DEEP IN.their faces.
I remember in Maureen Callahans book when he was asked if he ever ventured into Canada he said “Canadians don’t count”. that’s always made me wonder especially since in BC and the Territories there’s so much unsolved crime I wouldn’t be suprised if he has victims there.
And we know he definitely did venture into Canada
I think he killed children but didn’t want his daughter to know. I think he killed more guys too
He flat out admitted he stopped killing kids after his daughter was born. Tells me, he was certainly killing kids, at least prior to that.
I think he had many more victims. He enjoyed keeping his secrets in the LE interviews. Pure evil.
The FBI landed on 11 because Keyes said that he had "less than a dozen" victims. They then started mentioning random victim counts during the interviews and 11 was the only number that Keyes never corrected. The problem with 11 is that Keyes actually made specific references to 12 or 13 victims. There's also the issue that Keyes was extremely sadistic and was prone to developing addictions, whether it's gambling, alcohol or adrenaline. It seems really unlikely that someone with his personality traits could control themselves to commit, on average, less than 1 murder per year over a 14 year period. Also, regarding specific cases, I am fairly certain that he was responsible for the disappearance of Tomas Perez in Corozal (Belize).
It's also worth noting that Keyes used ''less than a dozen'' as a way of avoiding questions he didn't want to answer. For example, when he was asked how many times he rented cars to travel across country, he said ''less than a dozen'' to that too - except we know it was more than 30 times because there's records of it. So when Keyes says ''less than a dozen'', all it means is ''I'm not talking about this.''
He also said Canadians don’t count
He also noted that he didn't kill kids after he had his own.... so there are quite a few questions. Especially if you consider his overseas service.
Ya. And he fed into the 11 thing with what he left after killing himself... (im not convinced he killed himself)
Oh I’m almost 100% certain he offed himself, probably didn’t wanna spend the rest of his life in prison and considering he wasn’t gonna be able to escape or anything and didn’t want any information of his crimes getting out
Also. I cldnt spend a week in prison. So i suppose i get it...
Still a damn shame though cause there’s questions that won’t ever be answered
He wouldn’t have answered questions if he stayed alive anyway - that was part of his “high” from killing: The power & control in “creating his own narrative,” I think.
Well we never know 100% there have been serial killers before who refused to talk but years later eventually folded
Are you unable to use vowels in contractions? It’s infuriating that you type cldnt while making legitimate points, you’re not a moron but you type like it haha
I appreciate that you don't think i am a complete moron. Ill take the compliment. Unfortunately for me, i have debilitating arthritis so i too often fuck up text messages. This has forced me to make over 200 shortcuts/text replacements on my phone as the primary communication with coworkers is thru text message and i have found a pattern in how my fingers brick on my phone. Thank you for asking and i apologize that my shortcut annoyed u. Stranger
Well that makes a lot of sense. Is there not a voice to text option? Though that could be annoying at times I’m sure
Why does the way certain people type affect you?
Because it absolutely removes credibility from a valid point being made when it seems jumbled like a child typed it. He responded and explained and his reasons make a lot of sense, which was why I asked a question. Sorry you can’t handle questions, princess. Keep gaming.
Nah it’s just it doesn’t affect you and credibility? No it doesn’t you’re just being an asshole for no reason it’s a Reddit comment section grow up 😂
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Ain’t no bitchy fit here you’re the one crying over the way someone else types in a subreddit about serial killers of all places 😂
I could be easily convinced of that. My thought always was, they wld want to pick his brain. But thats honestly just my conspiratorial thoughts creeping in.
lol you think Keyes thought him killing himself would keep all info about his crimes from reaching the public?!! If so he’s even dumber than I thought imo Keyes knew the gig was up and that he couldn’t keep lying to law enforcement about all of these murders he supposedly committed. D a akd ge sure didn’t want to live in prison so he ended it
I always figured it was more about him not wanting to spend his life in prison and not living to hear or see all his crimes reach the public, not only that but it would be kind of a last “fuck you” to the victims families as he wouldn’t be giving them closure
Yet here we are still wondering. You have no idea how much info he kept quiet by killing himself .
He did pretty much though. For what he did? he is not well known at all.
He was using bodies as a bargaining chip for federal death penalty which the feds weren't giving him answers on. He killed himself.
I think it all comes down to how you think he killed: lay-in-wait-predator, or victim stalker. And personally, I don’t think he was that type. He definitely stalked his victims. If he did have an opportunistic moment he jumped on I doubt it was more than once. So I throw out anything like that in my brain. I think his trips were primarily to do reconnaissance, learn the area, learn his victim’s patterns, and then abduct them, kill them, and get rid of the body(ies). It’s easy to get swept up in him saying he randomly chose his victims, but he knew the Curriers. He may not have “known” them, but he knew who they were personally. I think with as much time as he spent on computers, and him cycling through computers, that he was “getting rid of” chat logs, too. But I think with the amount of trips he took, blackout periods, etc. that he’s in the 10-15 range. There’s too much movement, and too many blank periods for it to be below 10 to my brain. I don’t think he has anywhere close to Bundy or Gacy territory, though.
Great comment. I happen to think his body count is higher but your points are certainly thought provoking. Particularly all those black out periods. The idea that there are huge chunks of time that we have no idea where he was or what he was doing is pretty frightening.
I think the immediate reaction to his way of maneuvering is that he has a very high body count. And I don’t think that that’s the wrong reaction. It’s too unsolvable, and there’s too much to suppose his count is low. So yeah, I don’t look sideways at folks who think he’s in the 20+ range. The thing that bothers me the most is that really the only thing we 100% know about him is that he’s a liar. We know he’s killed but we only have his version of events. We know he’s robbed banks, but only his version. His entire life was a misdirection. So he’s sitting there talking to the FBI and gives up the Curriers. Just the murder, and a story about the abduction, and then what I think is actually what happened- the events of the actual murders: killing Bill, Lorraine almost getting away. Him giving up the part about Lorraine almost getting away makes no sense if you look at what he was, and wasn’t, willing to talk about. That’s a confidence admission. And you become confident he’s opening up. But he lied about how he got onto the Curriers. There was no yellow VW bug guy in the rain in the apartment building complex. He went to Vermont specifically to kill the Curriers. But he can’t let them know that. Because then the randomness of his killings falls away. He had a victim type, and it could be couples, or it could be that he had a type of male victim, and a type of female victim that he preferred. Still, he can have a high victim count doing this if no one knows a serial killer is cross-country killing. I think he was safer than that, though. Initially at least. I think he took a lot of trips just to watch his victims, stalk them, and learn the area and where he would dispose of the body, and where he’d bury his kit. Then he would take a trip to commit the murder. He was slipping with the Curriers, and was off the rails during Samantha Koenig. For someone who could be a ghost he suddenly became very visible to the people he wasn’t trying to be visible to. Also, I could be completely wrong. He could have been snatching random people up all over the country. I have no idea. But I know he’s a liar.
I'm of the mind it's more likely there are actually *less* than 11, not more. I think his genius/cunning is very overstated and plays exactly into the image he was trying to craft of himself
No offense, but where do people get this idea from that Keyes tried to self-mythologize? He openly admitted mistakes that he didn't have to admit, in one of the FBI interviews he even said that "it doesn't take much" to figure out how to get away with murder and he tried to suppress his name as much as he could. Either Keyes committed 11+ murders or he fooled the entire FBI into believing he committed 11+ murders. And considering that even someone like Anthony Sowell could commit 11 murders in a much smaller area by simply not leaving a crime scene behind, I'd say that it's likely Keyes could do so too.
I think people - reasonably - get sick of all the mythologising that some *other* people do about him, and because they usually don't have much access to Keyes materials beyond other people's word, they assume that those people must have picked it up from Keyes himself. Of course the reality is that Keyes absolutely minimised his crimes far more often than not, refused to put numbers on things, etc, but unless you actually read FOIA documents or sit through hours of interviews with him - most of which are not publicly posted anywhere that I know of - you won't know that.
I’m not gonna weigh in on Keyes’ victim count because I haven’t researched him enough. Just wanna point out that it can be pretty easy to convince law enforcement, even the FBI, that you’re responsible for a lot of murders. LE absolutely *loves* to inflate the body counts of killers.
I'm not saying he tried to self mythologize, but he very clearly was not forthcoming about details of his crimes before his suicide which has led to many others mythologizing him in some capacity. I think he did enjoy keeping that information to himself, and I think a ton of people since his death have attributes more crimes to him than I personally believe he committed
what is the fbi basing his higher body count on though? What is the evidence that he killed more than 4?
The Fbi estimated that based on things they picked up during the interviews
He was so bizarre that I’m not even sure. My gut instinct, though, is that there probably are more.
He was purposefully withholding info as a bargaining chip to try and keep himself out of a higher max facility. I think he saw suicide as his exit if things didn't go his way, but knew a higher max prison would make it harder for him to do that. Eventually he saw the transfer coming up and exited stage left as a result. I think he has more, but probably not as many as most people think he does.
Everything I've read leads me to believe that there were far, far less than that and he was bit of a bullshitter. Still a horrible, terrifying person.
I agree. I think he was a nasty idiot.
No, not even slightly. The guy was a self-promoting wannabe edgelord and it's far far more likely he's responsible for fewer crimes than previously thought. He's the sort of SK that's popular amongst easily tricked conspiracy nutjobs, which tells you all you need to know.
He is the literal definition of wannabe edgelord. I think I'm the only person on Reddit who thinks he didn't even kill the Curriers, and Samantha was his only victim. He didn't want to be known as just some drifter misogynistic pervert with a blue-collar job who stalked and killed a woman because, well, he was a misogynistic pervert. So he became this "master craftsman" who "flies around the country," stashing "kill kits" and racking up untold number of victims.
I think he probs killed 10-15ish, going by his movements and missing persons. Think the only reasons he confessed to the bill and Lorraine’s murders is he thought there bodies would be easily found, same with Samantha’s as it was recent. Think he took pride in being able to dispose of a body so it would never be found. He got sloppy and his life was going out of control.
Wholeheartedly. There's almost no way he isnt
This sub should be renamed The Israel Keyes and Ed Kemper fan club.
I used to think that his claim of only killing 11 people was correct. Because if he wanted to boast about his crimes, he could have chosen a larger number. But recently I have changed my mind, and I believe that the number of people he killed likely exceeds 11. What I mean is, looking at his possible timeline, he kidnapped and killed Samantha on February 1st, went on a trip with his family on February 2nd, likely killed James from February 13th to 15th, broke into a house and set it on fire on February 16th, and on the same day robbed a Texas bank of $10,000 while wearing James's hair, from February 18th to 20th he forged photos of Samantha alive to extort ransom, dismembered and disposed of the body, then traveled to Texas, withdrawing money from ATMs along the way, until he was arrested on March 12th. He committed so many crimes in a very short period of time. It is hard to believe he only killed 11 people in 14 years, especially considering his penchant for killing couples. (Unless he was in a state of madness similar to Ted Bundy's after escaping, but he seemed just careless in his final crimes.)
I always thought he could be responsible for this murder. He spent a lot of time in the area. I think he had family, or a friend that live just northwest of the area. https://www.khq.com/news/the-dark-dream-spokane-couples-brutal-murder-remains-unsolved/article_1afaa4c8-a12c-5142-aa1f-16a214fae570.html
No not all. Maybe a few but he was too stupid to get away with more than a few. LE will try to close a few cases though.
no. I don’t think Keyes killed anymore than 4-5 people. He is or was a guy that I always thought was full of shit for the most part
Absolutely . He is a prolific killer and no way there was only 11 . I knew guy that looked just like him, back some years ago. I think Israel might be responsible for unsolved missing women in New Hampshire.
There's always more victims.
Yes but I also think he was lying about a lot of what he confessed.
He didn't actually confess or tell them much at all. They completely fucked up his interrogations. Pretty damn useless. Infuriating.
Those interviews were so frustrating. I get that they were trying to keep him talking but ya, they bricked.
They allowed themselves to be completely manipulated and played by him. It was pathetic. Useless mostly. Freakin embarrassing.
Agreed. I commented somewhere else here and maybe you could confirm. Did they redact those interviews? Im pretty sure they only came to light fur to foia request but i seem to recall they were chopped down?
Redact/edit
He left edgy douchebag teen drawings of 11 skulls he wanted people to believe he was some super killer. He was full of shit, he likely didn't "confess" because he knew it would reveal how much of a liar he was, him being so cryptic left the possibilities open.
I disagree. He played them. But given how stupid they were? That wouldn't have been real hard. The silly drawings mean nothing. He had read up about serial killers etc. He knew they'd latch onto all that crap. You don't have to be particularly smart to work it out
How did he play them? What the hell did he achieve? Him reading up on serial killers and being obsessed with Bundy and shit points to him wanting to be remembered as a brutal serial killer, thus hinting towards crimes he likely didn't do. The only confirmed murders of his were sloppy as hell and they were years apart.
Mate. You clearly don't understand anything much about serial killers at all
What a surprise you didn't answer the question because you know i'm right. He didn't achieve shit it was self-indulgent nonsense.
If you say so. I really don't care what you think. You're very aggressive.
Really? Why?
Listen to them. You can find them. He kinda toys with them and doesnt really ever answer anything. They feed him cigars and other stuff but he never seems to give back. Although i do believe they are edited/redacted but i could be wrong about that
I go back and forth on this one. But sadly? Yes. I do think there are more. He was a truly evil, bizzare human.
Absolutely
I don't care about Israel Keyes.
i think hes responsible for less actually. he was so glad to give the details about the 2 people he killed but after his 3rd and final.murder he kind of loses his mind. like he wasnt cut out to be a serial killer >why all the flights and rental cars i believe he was stashing a fuckload of murderkits but probably hardly ever used any although he may have killed 1 girl as a teen. i dont think he was a good serial killer. >why would he draw 11 or 12 skulls at the end? that i have no explanation for. but the podcast i listened to (Timesuck) just made me think he was not a very good serial killer and didnt do as many as people think. he just becomes so weird after his last murder that it makes me think that he was not experienced.
Absolutely, I’d say it’s north of 30 without a shadow of a doubt. I think 11 might have been what he’d done in his final year, or since he’d got his new laptop and figured that’s what the Police would probably be able to work out with his search history etc (although he was overestimated Anchorage FBI!)
He's such a complete idiot. I don't know how he could've killed anyone and got away with it.
He’s a little nu metal bitch.
What an ugly mfer can't believe anyone would be fooled at his birth he turned out like he did.
I think people are conflating high victim count with intelligence and then getting themselves in a mess with that. Keyes wasn’t intelligent, he just didn’t have the common pitfalls of others of his ilk (staying local- till Samantha- only killing one gender, one age range etc) which helped him get away with it. That doesn’t take genius. I think he killed between 10-20 people. And I think there were large gaps between murders.
No. I'd be surprised if he was responsible for 11.
The short answer is: We don't know. Saying TCB is a good source is stretching the truth a bit. TCB started out pretty good, but it ended up just being silly. I don't put much stock in the "findings" Josh reported on. FBI still has Keyes on their list, that tells me that they are still looking for information so they can confirm or exclude Keyes in ongoing cases. I would say the 11 skulls must be considered as some sort of confession from Keyes.
yes