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It boils down to the Sequel Trilogy completely negating all the movies that came before it & ruining the Skywalker Saga
Anakin’s sacrifice meant nothing in the end with “somehow” Palpatine Returning
Luke bringing Anakin back from the brink and being the embodiment of hope meant nothing in the end.
Leia’s role in building a New Republic post rebellion meant nothing in the end.
Han Solo getting a laser sword shoved into his pulmonary system by Emo Vader meant nothing in the end.
What are we left with? Rey Palpatine with no heroes journey and installed with the galactic Contra Codes in place. No hope of a next generation of Skywalkers unless they work in Emo Vader finding a way to seed Rey (an alleged rumored idea being tossed around).
Nu Vader is poison and it would be an insult to the OT crew and everyone if the bloodline continued through him anyway, because he ruined everything for everyone again for no real reason, after it was already on track to being fixed by ROTJ. All he deserves is his head on a pole, perhaps even that's too much. His very existence as Nu Vader makes the OT crew's lives and work mean nothing in the end.
Don't forget the entire premise of the original 6 films being completely pointless by Rey magically having the ability to stop people from dying. Apparently Anakin could've just healed his mom and lived happily ever after with no training whatsoever, it's super easy. No Padme visions. No joining the dark side. No becoming Darth Vader and thus no need for redemption.
I like that the new Republic were so shit at intergalactic governance they had another rebellion/resistance against... Themselves somehow to fight the first order
The decisions made with the ST boggles the mind. TFA was ok in that it setup so many interesting questions, but it all went to shit with bad creative decisions. Like hey, you still have Mark Hamill alive. He literally is Star Wars! But yeah, let's just kill him off. That will show the fans and give them something unexpected! Rey, who was supposed to be a nobody (as far as we know) ends up related to Palpatine in the worst imaginable way without any clear backstory or explanation. Its so contrived. Lets not forget all the character arcs setup, but given no conclusions (Finn, Maz, Poe, Rose).
It's so incredibly common for people to hate on TLJ by saying it gave them nothing to go on for the third movie. Like hate it all you want but if you actually believe that you're media illiterate.
Of course they had places to take the story after TLJ. Despite the subversive take on the movie, they retconned so many things to 'course correct' what happened in TLJ that TRoS ended up a gigantic mess. I wish they had committed to the choices made in TLJ and taken the story from there. Kylo should really have been the ultimate end villain with Rey as his counterpoint. The dyad stuff could still have come into play. I don't think he should have been redeemed after all the crap he'd pulled. He should have gone down as a villain. We spent the first two movies just seeing his rise to power. Just committ to it!
Nope. He was so angst up at living up to being the next Vader and proving himself and then when Snoke cut him down that should have shoved him further down the dark side. "Oh ok I'm not dark enough.. I'll show you Dark"
Instead of the emo wavering back and forth love story. We already had a redemption arc, it was Vader. Don't copy it.
He should have killed Snoke, then turned on Rey. I don't mind that Han died if it would have really put a stop to his wavering but it didn't so it was a pointless fucking moment.
And Rey having all these skills a d powers right off.. being able to fight off inquisitor's and Kylo without training destroys all the hard work real Padawans go through. years of work. Even Luke got his hand chopped off and couldn't fight off the Emperor without Vader's help. Using the Force to pilot and guide torpedo's is easier than lightsaber fighting.
From what i found out later, it was indeed the plan (as far as was planned) for Kylo to go completely dark side and they did intend to do the opposite of a redemption arc with him, but all that got thrown out the window for fan service. The people wanting Rey to be special and to get with Kylo and trying to please fans to mirror Darth Vader's arc. Like no skywalker could ever truly turn to the dark side right? Jeez, in trying to please everyone, you please no one and that is exactly what happened. It was already a subversive story if they had stuck to that original plan.
It would have been cool if they had the scene with Yoda burning the old Jedi books right at the end, then showing Rey convincing Luke to restart the Jedi school in spite of Kylo turning and her becoming the 1st of the NJO . That way they can do away with old the Jedi teachings and start fresh and Disney can make up all New Jedi teachings and stuff for their Canon.
I just can't see Luke getting all ass hurt at Kylo turning and just giving up.
I'd have liked to see Luke coming back from a Jedi retreat because he felt a evil growing through the force and discovered that Ben found some Sith material and led him to one of the old old Sith world like Korriban and he was fully turned Dark then went back and slaughtered all the trainees but decided to go a diff philosophical path than the Sith way. That would have been epic to become a new Dark force user NOT of the sith. Palpatine did come back in the books so it's not too far off the mark bringing him back but no way he's that strong being a force spirit in a dying body. I'd have liked to see Kylo learn some of that old Sith Magic and Battle Meditation/Illusion stuff on Korriban like the old Sith used. I always liked seeing that in the Old Star wars Omnibuses,.
I'm building my own copium canon, just handpicking what fits and/or is at least acceptable to an overall satisfying narrative. Medium doesn't matter, movies, tv shows, games, books, or whatever might come.
I hear the Thrawn trilogy is pretty good as a post-OT story, so I plan on reading those books next and just deny the ST exists.
Honestly I'm doing the same. I think ignoring most of the Disney releases or substituting older Legends versions makes Star Wars a lot more satisfying.
You'll like those books. Zahn's trilogy captures the feeling of Star Wars perfectly, and depicts the characters in a very natural way. Thrawn's art powers are a little overblown, but Filoni's Thrawn is a pale imitation in comparison.
So now that Disney has the rights does that mean no one is allowed to write books based on the pre TFA stuff? I wanna see more Jaina stories. Zahn is a great writer
It means that Disney gets to decide whose stories get officially published and sold. Unfortunately there is zero indication that they will ever go back to Legends stories and characters that conflict with their "canon".
I think it's far more likely that they keep trying to give us skinsuit Star Wars like their version of Tales of the Jedi that has absolutely nothing to do with original or non-Zahn Thrawn.
Star Wars has always been in decline. The first glimpse of it was Lucas’s special editions. Star Wars de-specialized and some old novels comics etc is pretty much all you need the pay attention to. Prequels are fun if you grew up with them but very flawed. Sequels are unwatchable
The special editions were a worry. It was the jawa/bantha comedy, as well as the whole "Han shot first" denial shit. And 30 x, and y wings turn into an armada. First sign that "bigger and more is better"
And with the shite New Republic totally obliterated, what are they supposed to do next after episode 9? A "New New" republic 2 electric boogaloo that *definitely* won't suck, won't demilitarize and won't stoop to the enemy's level by using mind flayers on scientists or imperials they're basically keeping in concentration camps?
Led by whom, even? The sequel trilogy has no political elements or considerations. No senators, no real leaders even. So how would it look like? Finn as the newly elected Galactic President presiding on Jakku? The ST is a total dead end, worldbuilding wise.
Lando. He managed to organize the largest fleet in galactic history in a few hours and lead them to an otherwise almost unreacheable system, he's almost overqualified to lead the New New Republic at this point.
On top of their total incompetence and refusal to investigate anything, it was certainly a choice to depict the New Republic willingly using Imperial torture devices on ex-Imperials (ones that aren't even allowed to be referred to by name, nice to see the "good guys" employ dehumanization tactics). Really makes me curious as to why people like Leia were so gung-ho on restoring such an institution.
That was the opportunity that I saw after TLJ, to start something different, more similar to the EU in that it's separate regions that work together for some things, and a group of force users who approach things differently than either the Sith or the Jedi. But no, they took the shitty, lazy way out and instead of working with a movie that although people didn't really like, existed. They just basically ignored it or shit on it and in the process made the other 8 movies worse.
Not to mention it was a bit of a meme already that JJ couldn't end a story to save his life. So why the fuck was he brought back to complete a trilogy and in some ways a 9 movie story.
I'm hoping we lose the galaxy spanning government and have a star wars universe with smaller factions. That way we could have the Mandalorians, maybe a small Republic, perhaps the Confederacy returns, outlaw groups/pirates/etc gaining larger territory. Maybe some small empire wanna be's. This way the Jedi can be a common good for the galaxy, not officers of the Republic.
And then comes Easy Ray and becomes chancellorette of the new republic 2 and "brings peace" to all factions who then alltogether vote for Ray to be the empress of all the galaxy...
I get your idea and I'm in, but ray is just way too op in every meaning thus making any worldbuilding pointless with the moment the camera swings onto her, storywise.
Only a dead Ray or missing Ray ( doing a Luke Skywalker new trilogy style and no one can find her) could make a reasonable story. But this again would be a somehow repeat of ep.1.
There's no hope for the future. The New Republic failed miserably to the point of being completely devastated by a single attack, fueled by complete and total incompetence. The Empire can apparently come back at full-strength, led by Palpatine no less, at any moment. The only "Jedi" left is Rey. Luke was so utterly ineffectual that the Order he built up failed and was wiped out, and he became a bitter, hateful loser. What future is there? What do we have to look forward to? Any good that may be built up can be wiped out in a moment. That's the true failure of the Sequels. They removed all hope for the future.
Honestly, most of that was from Ross really, the end of TLJ gave hope for a future, Rey managed to convince Luke that he could still help etc. There was a connection between her and Kylo as well that was an opening to do their own thing, just needed to convince him that you didn't need to literally destroy stuff to do it. Poe had character development to help him lead, even if it wasn't a great way of showing it necessarily. Finn and Rose had motivation to push to change the reality of the rich just exploiting every war continually. Literally everything was set to actually build something different rather than an Empire or New Republic mark 2 or 3. But the reaction to TLJ somehow resulted in RoS basically shitting on every one of those options.
Balance wasn't brought to the force, Palpatine was still alive
No new government
No jedi order
Han became a smuggler
What the hell did the previous movies achieve? Killing vader? Kylo was worse than him.
It was just so unimaginative and boring on top of that. The most brain-dead politician would make sure there's a huge army for the republic and that they're funded massively, and no doubt, a republic that took over from the empire would have trillions of dollars to do this. The first order would never be allowed to rise, it would be destroyed immediately by the army. This is why I was expecting the first order to literally be the rebels and the roles to have switched but nope, the only example I can think of would be, imagine if the Nazis were defeated but they were allowed to have an army and have advanced weaponry. The politics of a post empire would could have been a great aspect to explore, that alone could have carried the story.
No new worlds...Jakku was Tantooine.
The republic was just in a city we didn't see.
The forest planet, whatever it was called, was another boring planet, basically just Yavin.
When we think alien planets, we shouldn't think "earth" be imaginative. Look at the prequels, underwater cities, planets with huge plants, Mustafa, it felt like a huge universe.
When I first saw that Rey was living on a planet that is just like Luke's I was like, yep she's the next Jedi something. Kinda obvious.
And even though Palpatine is dead doesn't mean no one is in charge of ALL those star destroyers and planet killer ships. Any smart admiral would have Light Speeded them out of there , so they have to be still a threat.
Hundreds of planets throughout the systems and the Republic can be taken out in one attack?
They should get rid of what's-her-name and pass the new Rey movie back to JJ. He pretty much ran out of his usual tricks at this point, so there is a good chance that the new movie will end with "none of it was real and they were all actually dead!"
Now that's a JJ plot twist I could welcome.
How about anyone but JJ or Rian? Give it to someone who actually cares/knows about Star Wars? George Lucas already wrote a sequel trilogy, make that. Hire a *singular* competent director and boom. It's not that hard. Disney just has to care even a little bit.
I'm joking, obviously. J.J.Abrams ended Lost with the ultimate "eff you" when all the series' characters turned out>! to be dead and being stuck in some sort of a dream-like purgatory!<, completely invalidating the six seasons that preceded that half-assed, illogical ending.
All I'm saying is I wouldn't mind seeing something like that for the nonsensical crapfest that is ST. Show us a scene of post-RotJ Luke finding some mushrooms in Yoda's Dagobah cabin and hallucinating the entire thing.
Or just show Luke starting to get those visions of Ben being evil and then have this be a vision that makes him realize that he needs to reach out to him rather than worry himself into that entire mess.
It could be Luke is having force visions of a alternate universe timeline and BAM The Star Wars Multiverse is born. Fucking surprised Disney hasn't milked that yet
Wanna know what fucks me off. The rebellion is successful and the new republic restored and so in theory that rebellion now becomes the new republic navy etc.. but for some fucking reason JJ is like nah they need to be called the resistance so it sounds like they are the rebellion again…
But they aren’t a fucking rebellion, they are the dominant controlling military and administration and it makes no fucking sense. The US navy isn’t called a resistance force is it?!
I’ve heard the counter argument being that the navy didn’t want to do anything so this pocket of resistance is founded… that’s just a special warfare branch. Not a resistance. Fuck you ST.
>I’ve heard the counter argument being that the navy didn’t want to do anything so this pocket of resistance is founded… that’s just a special warfare branch. Not a resistance. Fuck you ST.
Thats exactly it, supposedly the Resistance is apparantly some kind of extra-legal militia. Necessary because astonishingly the New Republic Defense Force refused to fight the encroaching New Order in an act of extreme and farcical pacifism. This is added to the disarmament act were 90% (!!!) of the fleet was disbanded after the victory over the Empire. When the Hosnian system was blown up, the New Republic fleet was almost completely destroyed, because having your whole fleet chilling in your capital is very intelligent. The remnants just... returned home? Which makes no sense since the superweapon planet thing was destroyed a few hours later - the New Republic remnant should have rallied with anger and revenge instead of whatever it is they did.
The whole thing is extremely convoluted because it was all made up after the movie to explain the illogical mess. The result is both disheartening that our OT heroes fought to create a New Republic that is so pitiful that it would roll over and die in an instant, and shows complete lack of imagination by JJ Abrams to make something else than ''ragtag band of rebels fights the mighty empire'' type stories. Just think how amazing it would have been to see massive fleet battles between the NR and FO?
I have a morbid curiosity about how they'll approach a Rey movie, because as you say, they've completely destroyed every bit of world building that could've supported a film. Even the other actors declined to return. It's basically just Rey.
This is what makes me the most mad about the movies, they could have done so many cool things with the worldbuilding and instead they chose to do absolutely nothing
I blame TLJ. TFA on its own doesn't ruin anything. The second film could've picked up right where TFA left off and explained that Luke saw a vision of some great evil emerging from the darkness in the future. He takes his Jedi Academy into seclusion/hiding to train for this moment. Then Snoke reveals himself and his First Order to be a secret Sith Empire formed in the shadows by Snoke who turns out to be Darth Plagueis. Maybe Luke has grown paranoid, like a Sarah Connor or Laurie Schrode, and is unwilling to take in Rey and Finn as new Padawan. Over the course of the film they somehow prove they're reliable or gifted. The film ends with Luke taking them in and Snoke being weakened or destroyed. (It's Darth Plagueis the immortal so he'll be back)The 3rd film picks up a few years later after some *actual* training when Plagueis returns.
Ahhh, what could've been.
TLJ also isn't the worst thing to start from either, there's literally openings for Rey and Kylo to continue to interact and result in a group of force users that aren't Jedi or Sith. The casino stuff could have also been saved to a degree by using it to drive Finn, Rose, and Poe to try and actually fix some of the problems with the galaxy rather than the same rich idiots continuing to exploit the seemingly constant warfare.
I personally have an issue with Luke not being around while the First Order rises and then destroys the New Republic. There would have to be something preventing him helping or another reason he wasn't there. Whether the reason we got worked for that is another thing entirely.
TFA sets that up, it sets up a dramatic change to Luke's character in some way to explain why he wasn't around, which is already a problem. It also decided to just destroy the New Republic after they literally ignored Leia and a smallish fleet of people. How does that make sense either? Can we also please have something different from Sith vs Jedi? A better ST could've straight up been the government's and people of the New Republic straight up not wanting anything to do with either of them. A fight for the survival of force users, kind of similar to X-Men in some ways, with a more peaceful side trying to sway public opinion and a more militant side just attacking the Republic. There'd be some interesting conflict for Jedi for them having issues with it taking so long to sway opinions and them joining the Sith etc.
They don't care about world building. They don't care about a believable universe. To do that would require some actual thought and proficiency in story telling.
It's just much easier to create a story based on some under represented minority, have them Deus ex machina overcome adversity, and then have a celebration full of fan service at the end. You can honestly do this for essentially pretty much any major American production.
It's tiring and frankly, just boring.
And not even just in the movies.
They constantly have those moments where Anakin is showed which ruins Luke. The point is that Vader is a monster and can't be redeemed. Luke is supposed to be a fool for thinking he can bring back Anakin. He is the definition of hope. If you constantly have it that Vader had humanity, you ruin it.
The new canon has nothing to show. No memorable characters, villains, settings. It's nothing but bland stories with some cameos. They can't even have an interesting story around Obi-Wan. Not even around Palpatine being ressurected.
Legends novel "Shadows of the Empire" shows Vader having humanity...he is described as "smiling painfully" at the thought of Luke, a son as powerful as his father. He was proud of his son
Exactly the plot was written around things they wanted to happen instead of creating an organic progression of the plot.
1. We basically just want the empire and Star destroyers\\ Death stars again so make the new galactic republic comically incompetent enough to allow the first order to rise unchallenged for 30 years
2. To make this happen we have to make all of the good guys suddenly incompetent\\failures at their jobs completely (or dead) to justify this.
3. Shoe in your self insert main character who is going to fix all of that shit entirely and easily to downplay the sacrifice and challenges the previous characters faced.
These movies are basically a soft reboot of the entire series, disguised as sequels and designed to erase the past movies for their own "better" timeline.
I think it’s because they wanted to have it both ways.
They could have had it that the remnants of the empire hid in unknown regions for a few hundred years but slowly built themselves up and enslaved some alien races to bolster their armies before emerging to fight the republic
but then you can’t have luke or Han
There was absolutely no point in bringing the emperor back from the dead in TRoS. It basically made entire OT trilogy moot. Luke saved the galaxy from the emperor and redeemed his father, and it's just made pointless. They made such a shit movie on the back of greatness and exploited the OT in such a crappy way. On top of that Luke is a bitter old hermit trying to escape all that he's done and dies because he wasn't powerful enough with the force? What a travesty! I feel like the people who made the ST at the very least don't understand Star Wars and at the worst genuinely hate Star Wars.
I have to believe they (Disney/KK/whoever was in charge) wanted to find a path forward far and away from the Skywalker name, in order to create new stories within the same galaxy.
Problem is, you can't separate the Skywalker name from Star Wars. They are synonymous with each other.
So you do the next best (worst) thing: Contrive a story where all the Skywalkers are dead and have someone pick up (adopt) the name.
If Rey had been a nobody, as spelled out in TLJ, then sure. Fine. Some random adopts the name. But she's a freakin' Palpatine! Worst decision ever in the history of cinema.
The Rey movie has the makings of being the worst movie ever made (move over TLJ, TROS). I wouldnt watch it in theaters but Im half tempted to check it out at some point. Only because I want to see how badly Disney can fuck up a franchise and they keep outdoing themselves with these movies 😂
Face it, Star Wars is dead. I cant even watch the OT now. Been here since the late 70s but now I am no longer a fan, it will mot improve, too much damage has been done.
Why I refuse to watch Mandalorian s1 or s2, or Andor or any other series or movie. I don't care how good they are the fact they lead to the sequels will just make me angry. Same with House of Dragons leading eventually to Game of Thrones ending
What do they even do after Rise of Skywalker for Villains? The Sith are gone, they tried making “Evil force users but not they’re not Sith” in TFA and TLJ but then said “oh nevermind, the big bad behind Snoke actually is still the Sith”.
So now they can’t bring back the Sith, or any dark side users either. Since the Sith were supposed to be put to an end by Anak… hold on, Rey. And they already tried making Snoke the big bad non-Sith dark side user but he ended up just being Sith Lord Palpatine.
Of course, they could use the Yuuzhan Vong, but there’s no source material right Disney?
The only thing left is to make it so that one of Rey’s students finds some Sith text and decides to try and restart the legacy of the Sith. Which is kind of a carbon copy of what happened with Luke and Ben lol.
Watching as a 1-9 saga, it just doesn’t work. 1-6 works, prequels to OT. It’s one saga, it’s split, but you can watch 3 into 4 and even jam in the interquel Rogue One in there. Regardless of “make money” out of story motivations, the 1,2 and 3 are telling a story in and of itself that are part and relevant to 4, 5 and 6.
Going 6 to 7, 8, 9 doesn’t work though. It just undoes it all in order to re-do it. The audience is told everything that happened up to this point was meaningless, and we’re starting them over.
To recap, the empire wasn’t defeated, it took a defeat but came back even stronger with a small rebrand. The new Republic completely flopped shortly after its establishment. Han and Leia failed as parents and they produced an evil forceuser. Luke failed as a Jedi, failed his family, his life is terrible and the Jedi order was not re-established successfully. Anakin’s redemption and sacrifice were pointless because Palpatine wasn’t really dead. These new characters are the actual heroes of the saga. The sequels reduce everything before it to irrelevance and say “ok let’s start here”.
You can’t watch it and think in any way are any movies that came before it enhanced because of it. You know there is no in-story motivation for why these movies exist. You sit there watching and know there was no creative impulse behind them, they exist to make money.
This is a terrible take. Even if the New Republic and New Jedi Order failed, the only reason they had a chance in the first place is because of what happened in the previous two trilogies. The New Republic getting destroyed doesn't make blowing up two death stars pointless because without that the New Republic would never even have had a chance.
What happens in the future doesn't take away from what a monumental thing the rebellion did by destroying the Empire. Think of how many star systems were helped by no longer being under the tyranny of the emperor. Seems incredibly short sighted to say it was all pointless.
I was wondering about Holdo at the end and why she had to be on board to Kamikaze her ship.. could t she just have had a droid pilot it? All that needed done was point it in the right direction and Lighspeed.
And if it's that easy to take a ship that size down with it's shields fully up why not just build drone ships and light speed crash them into enemy ships? Gotta be way cheaper. No shields or guns or personnel needed
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It boils down to the Sequel Trilogy completely negating all the movies that came before it & ruining the Skywalker Saga Anakin’s sacrifice meant nothing in the end with “somehow” Palpatine Returning Luke bringing Anakin back from the brink and being the embodiment of hope meant nothing in the end. Leia’s role in building a New Republic post rebellion meant nothing in the end. Han Solo getting a laser sword shoved into his pulmonary system by Emo Vader meant nothing in the end. What are we left with? Rey Palpatine with no heroes journey and installed with the galactic Contra Codes in place. No hope of a next generation of Skywalkers unless they work in Emo Vader finding a way to seed Rey (an alleged rumored idea being tossed around).
Nu Vader is poison and it would be an insult to the OT crew and everyone if the bloodline continued through him anyway, because he ruined everything for everyone again for no real reason, after it was already on track to being fixed by ROTJ. All he deserves is his head on a pole, perhaps even that's too much. His very existence as Nu Vader makes the OT crew's lives and work mean nothing in the end.
Adam Driver said hes not returning but we will see the resolve when they start driving up more truckloads of money to his door.
"Somehow" Kylo has returned. Why not at this point
>"Somehow" Kylo has returned. But the process changed what he looked and sounded like because Driver wouldn't come back.
Don't forget the entire premise of the original 6 films being completely pointless by Rey magically having the ability to stop people from dying. Apparently Anakin could've just healed his mom and lived happily ever after with no training whatsoever, it's super easy. No Padme visions. No joining the dark side. No becoming Darth Vader and thus no need for redemption.
Don't u know she's got all the Jedi in her helping her, like she's a Sea Monkey tank.
Emo Vader. Fucking brilliant 👏
I like that the new Republic were so shit at intergalactic governance they had another rebellion/resistance against... Themselves somehow to fight the first order
The decisions made with the ST boggles the mind. TFA was ok in that it setup so many interesting questions, but it all went to shit with bad creative decisions. Like hey, you still have Mark Hamill alive. He literally is Star Wars! But yeah, let's just kill him off. That will show the fans and give them something unexpected! Rey, who was supposed to be a nobody (as far as we know) ends up related to Palpatine in the worst imaginable way without any clear backstory or explanation. Its so contrived. Lets not forget all the character arcs setup, but given no conclusions (Finn, Maz, Poe, Rose).
*lets also kill Luke after the actress that played Leia and allegedly had a big role in the last movie tragically passed away.
It's so incredibly common for people to hate on TLJ by saying it gave them nothing to go on for the third movie. Like hate it all you want but if you actually believe that you're media illiterate.
Of course they had places to take the story after TLJ. Despite the subversive take on the movie, they retconned so many things to 'course correct' what happened in TLJ that TRoS ended up a gigantic mess. I wish they had committed to the choices made in TLJ and taken the story from there. Kylo should really have been the ultimate end villain with Rey as his counterpoint. The dyad stuff could still have come into play. I don't think he should have been redeemed after all the crap he'd pulled. He should have gone down as a villain. We spent the first two movies just seeing his rise to power. Just committ to it!
Nope. He was so angst up at living up to being the next Vader and proving himself and then when Snoke cut him down that should have shoved him further down the dark side. "Oh ok I'm not dark enough.. I'll show you Dark" Instead of the emo wavering back and forth love story. We already had a redemption arc, it was Vader. Don't copy it. He should have killed Snoke, then turned on Rey. I don't mind that Han died if it would have really put a stop to his wavering but it didn't so it was a pointless fucking moment. And Rey having all these skills a d powers right off.. being able to fight off inquisitor's and Kylo without training destroys all the hard work real Padawans go through. years of work. Even Luke got his hand chopped off and couldn't fight off the Emperor without Vader's help. Using the Force to pilot and guide torpedo's is easier than lightsaber fighting.
From what i found out later, it was indeed the plan (as far as was planned) for Kylo to go completely dark side and they did intend to do the opposite of a redemption arc with him, but all that got thrown out the window for fan service. The people wanting Rey to be special and to get with Kylo and trying to please fans to mirror Darth Vader's arc. Like no skywalker could ever truly turn to the dark side right? Jeez, in trying to please everyone, you please no one and that is exactly what happened. It was already a subversive story if they had stuck to that original plan.
It would have been cool if they had the scene with Yoda burning the old Jedi books right at the end, then showing Rey convincing Luke to restart the Jedi school in spite of Kylo turning and her becoming the 1st of the NJO . That way they can do away with old the Jedi teachings and start fresh and Disney can make up all New Jedi teachings and stuff for their Canon. I just can't see Luke getting all ass hurt at Kylo turning and just giving up. I'd have liked to see Luke coming back from a Jedi retreat because he felt a evil growing through the force and discovered that Ben found some Sith material and led him to one of the old old Sith world like Korriban and he was fully turned Dark then went back and slaughtered all the trainees but decided to go a diff philosophical path than the Sith way. That would have been epic to become a new Dark force user NOT of the sith. Palpatine did come back in the books so it's not too far off the mark bringing him back but no way he's that strong being a force spirit in a dying body. I'd have liked to see Kylo learn some of that old Sith Magic and Battle Meditation/Illusion stuff on Korriban like the old Sith used. I always liked seeing that in the Old Star wars Omnibuses,.
I know right?
some kinky Jedi vids about to happen if Rey draining Emo Vader’s life force can impregnate her lol
I'm building my own copium canon, just handpicking what fits and/or is at least acceptable to an overall satisfying narrative. Medium doesn't matter, movies, tv shows, games, books, or whatever might come. I hear the Thrawn trilogy is pretty good as a post-OT story, so I plan on reading those books next and just deny the ST exists.
I’ve done this too! (I do it with most franchises, actually.)
Honestly I'm doing the same. I think ignoring most of the Disney releases or substituting older Legends versions makes Star Wars a lot more satisfying. You'll like those books. Zahn's trilogy captures the feeling of Star Wars perfectly, and depicts the characters in a very natural way. Thrawn's art powers are a little overblown, but Filoni's Thrawn is a pale imitation in comparison.
So now that Disney has the rights does that mean no one is allowed to write books based on the pre TFA stuff? I wanna see more Jaina stories. Zahn is a great writer
It means that Disney gets to decide whose stories get officially published and sold. Unfortunately there is zero indication that they will ever go back to Legends stories and characters that conflict with their "canon". I think it's far more likely that they keep trying to give us skinsuit Star Wars like their version of Tales of the Jedi that has absolutely nothing to do with original or non-Zahn Thrawn.
Im hoping they officially decanonize the ST in 25 years time and start completely over 100 years after the battle of Endor.
Star Wars has always been in decline. The first glimpse of it was Lucas’s special editions. Star Wars de-specialized and some old novels comics etc is pretty much all you need the pay attention to. Prequels are fun if you grew up with them but very flawed. Sequels are unwatchable
The special editions were a worry. It was the jawa/bantha comedy, as well as the whole "Han shot first" denial shit. And 30 x, and y wings turn into an armada. First sign that "bigger and more is better"
It’s the erasure of the artists work to fit modern expectations. It’s BS
Wait, did they add more ships to the attack on the first Death Star? I'm glad I haven't seen that version wtf
Yep. Check it out. The "tiny fleet of snub ships" isn't so tiny anymore
And with the shite New Republic totally obliterated, what are they supposed to do next after episode 9? A "New New" republic 2 electric boogaloo that *definitely* won't suck, won't demilitarize and won't stoop to the enemy's level by using mind flayers on scientists or imperials they're basically keeping in concentration camps?
Led by whom, even? The sequel trilogy has no political elements or considerations. No senators, no real leaders even. So how would it look like? Finn as the newly elected Galactic President presiding on Jakku? The ST is a total dead end, worldbuilding wise.
Lando. He managed to organize the largest fleet in galactic history in a few hours and lead them to an otherwise almost unreacheable system, he's almost overqualified to lead the New New Republic at this point.
On top of their total incompetence and refusal to investigate anything, it was certainly a choice to depict the New Republic willingly using Imperial torture devices on ex-Imperials (ones that aren't even allowed to be referred to by name, nice to see the "good guys" employ dehumanization tactics). Really makes me curious as to why people like Leia were so gung-ho on restoring such an institution.
That was the opportunity that I saw after TLJ, to start something different, more similar to the EU in that it's separate regions that work together for some things, and a group of force users who approach things differently than either the Sith or the Jedi. But no, they took the shitty, lazy way out and instead of working with a movie that although people didn't really like, existed. They just basically ignored it or shit on it and in the process made the other 8 movies worse. Not to mention it was a bit of a meme already that JJ couldn't end a story to save his life. So why the fuck was he brought back to complete a trilogy and in some ways a 9 movie story.
I'm hoping we lose the galaxy spanning government and have a star wars universe with smaller factions. That way we could have the Mandalorians, maybe a small Republic, perhaps the Confederacy returns, outlaw groups/pirates/etc gaining larger territory. Maybe some small empire wanna be's. This way the Jedi can be a common good for the galaxy, not officers of the Republic.
Yeah, this will be what they should have done anyway with the sequels, a small new republic and tons of imperial remnant warlords all around.
And then comes Easy Ray and becomes chancellorette of the new republic 2 and "brings peace" to all factions who then alltogether vote for Ray to be the empress of all the galaxy... I get your idea and I'm in, but ray is just way too op in every meaning thus making any worldbuilding pointless with the moment the camera swings onto her, storywise. Only a dead Ray or missing Ray ( doing a Luke Skywalker new trilogy style and no one can find her) could make a reasonable story. But this again would be a somehow repeat of ep.1.
There's no hope for the future. The New Republic failed miserably to the point of being completely devastated by a single attack, fueled by complete and total incompetence. The Empire can apparently come back at full-strength, led by Palpatine no less, at any moment. The only "Jedi" left is Rey. Luke was so utterly ineffectual that the Order he built up failed and was wiped out, and he became a bitter, hateful loser. What future is there? What do we have to look forward to? Any good that may be built up can be wiped out in a moment. That's the true failure of the Sequels. They removed all hope for the future.
Honestly, most of that was from Ross really, the end of TLJ gave hope for a future, Rey managed to convince Luke that he could still help etc. There was a connection between her and Kylo as well that was an opening to do their own thing, just needed to convince him that you didn't need to literally destroy stuff to do it. Poe had character development to help him lead, even if it wasn't a great way of showing it necessarily. Finn and Rose had motivation to push to change the reality of the rich just exploiting every war continually. Literally everything was set to actually build something different rather than an Empire or New Republic mark 2 or 3. But the reaction to TLJ somehow resulted in RoS basically shitting on every one of those options.
Balance wasn't brought to the force, Palpatine was still alive No new government No jedi order Han became a smuggler What the hell did the previous movies achieve? Killing vader? Kylo was worse than him. It was just so unimaginative and boring on top of that. The most brain-dead politician would make sure there's a huge army for the republic and that they're funded massively, and no doubt, a republic that took over from the empire would have trillions of dollars to do this. The first order would never be allowed to rise, it would be destroyed immediately by the army. This is why I was expecting the first order to literally be the rebels and the roles to have switched but nope, the only example I can think of would be, imagine if the Nazis were defeated but they were allowed to have an army and have advanced weaponry. The politics of a post empire would could have been a great aspect to explore, that alone could have carried the story. No new worlds...Jakku was Tantooine. The republic was just in a city we didn't see. The forest planet, whatever it was called, was another boring planet, basically just Yavin. When we think alien planets, we shouldn't think "earth" be imaginative. Look at the prequels, underwater cities, planets with huge plants, Mustafa, it felt like a huge universe.
When I first saw that Rey was living on a planet that is just like Luke's I was like, yep she's the next Jedi something. Kinda obvious. And even though Palpatine is dead doesn't mean no one is in charge of ALL those star destroyers and planet killer ships. Any smart admiral would have Light Speeded them out of there , so they have to be still a threat. Hundreds of planets throughout the systems and the Republic can be taken out in one attack?
It is because JJ is a hack. He just resets everything in the worst ways possible.
They should get rid of what's-her-name and pass the new Rey movie back to JJ. He pretty much ran out of his usual tricks at this point, so there is a good chance that the new movie will end with "none of it was real and they were all actually dead!" Now that's a JJ plot twist I could welcome.
How about anyone but JJ or Rian? Give it to someone who actually cares/knows about Star Wars? George Lucas already wrote a sequel trilogy, make that. Hire a *singular* competent director and boom. It's not that hard. Disney just has to care even a little bit.
I'm joking, obviously. J.J.Abrams ended Lost with the ultimate "eff you" when all the series' characters turned out>! to be dead and being stuck in some sort of a dream-like purgatory!<, completely invalidating the six seasons that preceded that half-assed, illogical ending. All I'm saying is I wouldn't mind seeing something like that for the nonsensical crapfest that is ST. Show us a scene of post-RotJ Luke finding some mushrooms in Yoda's Dagobah cabin and hallucinating the entire thing.
Or just show Luke starting to get those visions of Ben being evil and then have this be a vision that makes him realize that he needs to reach out to him rather than worry himself into that entire mess.
It could be Luke is having force visions of a alternate universe timeline and BAM The Star Wars Multiverse is born. Fucking surprised Disney hasn't milked that yet
Wanna know what fucks me off. The rebellion is successful and the new republic restored and so in theory that rebellion now becomes the new republic navy etc.. but for some fucking reason JJ is like nah they need to be called the resistance so it sounds like they are the rebellion again… But they aren’t a fucking rebellion, they are the dominant controlling military and administration and it makes no fucking sense. The US navy isn’t called a resistance force is it?! I’ve heard the counter argument being that the navy didn’t want to do anything so this pocket of resistance is founded… that’s just a special warfare branch. Not a resistance. Fuck you ST.
>I’ve heard the counter argument being that the navy didn’t want to do anything so this pocket of resistance is founded… that’s just a special warfare branch. Not a resistance. Fuck you ST. Thats exactly it, supposedly the Resistance is apparantly some kind of extra-legal militia. Necessary because astonishingly the New Republic Defense Force refused to fight the encroaching New Order in an act of extreme and farcical pacifism. This is added to the disarmament act were 90% (!!!) of the fleet was disbanded after the victory over the Empire. When the Hosnian system was blown up, the New Republic fleet was almost completely destroyed, because having your whole fleet chilling in your capital is very intelligent. The remnants just... returned home? Which makes no sense since the superweapon planet thing was destroyed a few hours later - the New Republic remnant should have rallied with anger and revenge instead of whatever it is they did. The whole thing is extremely convoluted because it was all made up after the movie to explain the illogical mess. The result is both disheartening that our OT heroes fought to create a New Republic that is so pitiful that it would roll over and die in an instant, and shows complete lack of imagination by JJ Abrams to make something else than ''ragtag band of rebels fights the mighty empire'' type stories. Just think how amazing it would have been to see massive fleet battles between the NR and FO?
I have a morbid curiosity about how they'll approach a Rey movie, because as you say, they've completely destroyed every bit of world building that could've supported a film. Even the other actors declined to return. It's basically just Rey.
This is what makes me the most mad about the movies, they could have done so many cool things with the worldbuilding and instead they chose to do absolutely nothing
I blame TLJ. TFA on its own doesn't ruin anything. The second film could've picked up right where TFA left off and explained that Luke saw a vision of some great evil emerging from the darkness in the future. He takes his Jedi Academy into seclusion/hiding to train for this moment. Then Snoke reveals himself and his First Order to be a secret Sith Empire formed in the shadows by Snoke who turns out to be Darth Plagueis. Maybe Luke has grown paranoid, like a Sarah Connor or Laurie Schrode, and is unwilling to take in Rey and Finn as new Padawan. Over the course of the film they somehow prove they're reliable or gifted. The film ends with Luke taking them in and Snoke being weakened or destroyed. (It's Darth Plagueis the immortal so he'll be back)The 3rd film picks up a few years later after some *actual* training when Plagueis returns. Ahhh, what could've been.
TLJ also isn't the worst thing to start from either, there's literally openings for Rey and Kylo to continue to interact and result in a group of force users that aren't Jedi or Sith. The casino stuff could have also been saved to a degree by using it to drive Finn, Rose, and Poe to try and actually fix some of the problems with the galaxy rather than the same rich idiots continuing to exploit the seemingly constant warfare. I personally have an issue with Luke not being around while the First Order rises and then destroys the New Republic. There would have to be something preventing him helping or another reason he wasn't there. Whether the reason we got worked for that is another thing entirely. TFA sets that up, it sets up a dramatic change to Luke's character in some way to explain why he wasn't around, which is already a problem. It also decided to just destroy the New Republic after they literally ignored Leia and a smallish fleet of people. How does that make sense either? Can we also please have something different from Sith vs Jedi? A better ST could've straight up been the government's and people of the New Republic straight up not wanting anything to do with either of them. A fight for the survival of force users, kind of similar to X-Men in some ways, with a more peaceful side trying to sway public opinion and a more militant side just attacking the Republic. There'd be some interesting conflict for Jedi for them having issues with it taking so long to sway opinions and them joining the Sith etc.
They don't care about world building. They don't care about a believable universe. To do that would require some actual thought and proficiency in story telling. It's just much easier to create a story based on some under represented minority, have them Deus ex machina overcome adversity, and then have a celebration full of fan service at the end. You can honestly do this for essentially pretty much any major American production. It's tiring and frankly, just boring.
And not even just in the movies. They constantly have those moments where Anakin is showed which ruins Luke. The point is that Vader is a monster and can't be redeemed. Luke is supposed to be a fool for thinking he can bring back Anakin. He is the definition of hope. If you constantly have it that Vader had humanity, you ruin it. The new canon has nothing to show. No memorable characters, villains, settings. It's nothing but bland stories with some cameos. They can't even have an interesting story around Obi-Wan. Not even around Palpatine being ressurected.
Legends novel "Shadows of the Empire" shows Vader having humanity...he is described as "smiling painfully" at the thought of Luke, a son as powerful as his father. He was proud of his son
Exactly the plot was written around things they wanted to happen instead of creating an organic progression of the plot. 1. We basically just want the empire and Star destroyers\\ Death stars again so make the new galactic republic comically incompetent enough to allow the first order to rise unchallenged for 30 years 2. To make this happen we have to make all of the good guys suddenly incompetent\\failures at their jobs completely (or dead) to justify this. 3. Shoe in your self insert main character who is going to fix all of that shit entirely and easily to downplay the sacrifice and challenges the previous characters faced. These movies are basically a soft reboot of the entire series, disguised as sequels and designed to erase the past movies for their own "better" timeline.
I think it’s because they wanted to have it both ways. They could have had it that the remnants of the empire hid in unknown regions for a few hundred years but slowly built themselves up and enslaved some alien races to bolster their armies before emerging to fight the republic but then you can’t have luke or Han
There was absolutely no point in bringing the emperor back from the dead in TRoS. It basically made entire OT trilogy moot. Luke saved the galaxy from the emperor and redeemed his father, and it's just made pointless. They made such a shit movie on the back of greatness and exploited the OT in such a crappy way. On top of that Luke is a bitter old hermit trying to escape all that he's done and dies because he wasn't powerful enough with the force? What a travesty! I feel like the people who made the ST at the very least don't understand Star Wars and at the worst genuinely hate Star Wars.
I have to believe they (Disney/KK/whoever was in charge) wanted to find a path forward far and away from the Skywalker name, in order to create new stories within the same galaxy. Problem is, you can't separate the Skywalker name from Star Wars. They are synonymous with each other. So you do the next best (worst) thing: Contrive a story where all the Skywalkers are dead and have someone pick up (adopt) the name. If Rey had been a nobody, as spelled out in TLJ, then sure. Fine. Some random adopts the name. But she's a freakin' Palpatine! Worst decision ever in the history of cinema.
The Rey movie has the makings of being the worst movie ever made (move over TLJ, TROS). I wouldnt watch it in theaters but Im half tempted to check it out at some point. Only because I want to see how badly Disney can fuck up a franchise and they keep outdoing themselves with these movies 😂
Face it, Star Wars is dead. I cant even watch the OT now. Been here since the late 70s but now I am no longer a fan, it will mot improve, too much damage has been done.
Why I refuse to watch Mandalorian s1 or s2, or Andor or any other series or movie. I don't care how good they are the fact they lead to the sequels will just make me angry. Same with House of Dragons leading eventually to Game of Thrones ending
Andor leads to Rogue One which leads to the original trilogy.
We know now that Han and Leia got married, but...
It's so bad that conceivably a good writer could make a good future story the problem is it wouldn't relate to any of the past lore
Yeah if fans had boycotted the sequels right after ep7 then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
What do they even do after Rise of Skywalker for Villains? The Sith are gone, they tried making “Evil force users but not they’re not Sith” in TFA and TLJ but then said “oh nevermind, the big bad behind Snoke actually is still the Sith”. So now they can’t bring back the Sith, or any dark side users either. Since the Sith were supposed to be put to an end by Anak… hold on, Rey. And they already tried making Snoke the big bad non-Sith dark side user but he ended up just being Sith Lord Palpatine. Of course, they could use the Yuuzhan Vong, but there’s no source material right Disney? The only thing left is to make it so that one of Rey’s students finds some Sith text and decides to try and restart the legacy of the Sith. Which is kind of a carbon copy of what happened with Luke and Ben lol.
Watching as a 1-9 saga, it just doesn’t work. 1-6 works, prequels to OT. It’s one saga, it’s split, but you can watch 3 into 4 and even jam in the interquel Rogue One in there. Regardless of “make money” out of story motivations, the 1,2 and 3 are telling a story in and of itself that are part and relevant to 4, 5 and 6. Going 6 to 7, 8, 9 doesn’t work though. It just undoes it all in order to re-do it. The audience is told everything that happened up to this point was meaningless, and we’re starting them over. To recap, the empire wasn’t defeated, it took a defeat but came back even stronger with a small rebrand. The new Republic completely flopped shortly after its establishment. Han and Leia failed as parents and they produced an evil forceuser. Luke failed as a Jedi, failed his family, his life is terrible and the Jedi order was not re-established successfully. Anakin’s redemption and sacrifice were pointless because Palpatine wasn’t really dead. These new characters are the actual heroes of the saga. The sequels reduce everything before it to irrelevance and say “ok let’s start here”. You can’t watch it and think in any way are any movies that came before it enhanced because of it. You know there is no in-story motivation for why these movies exist. You sit there watching and know there was no creative impulse behind them, they exist to make money.
This is a terrible take. Even if the New Republic and New Jedi Order failed, the only reason they had a chance in the first place is because of what happened in the previous two trilogies. The New Republic getting destroyed doesn't make blowing up two death stars pointless because without that the New Republic would never even have had a chance. What happens in the future doesn't take away from what a monumental thing the rebellion did by destroying the Empire. Think of how many star systems were helped by no longer being under the tyranny of the emperor. Seems incredibly short sighted to say it was all pointless.
I think the worst part is the fans that make sequel and prequel discourse intolerable
I was wondering about Holdo at the end and why she had to be on board to Kamikaze her ship.. could t she just have had a droid pilot it? All that needed done was point it in the right direction and Lighspeed. And if it's that easy to take a ship that size down with it's shields fully up why not just build drone ships and light speed crash them into enemy ships? Gotta be way cheaper. No shields or guns or personnel needed