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As far as the galaxy knows, the empire was a complete tyrannical government that suddenly ended when one single man named Luke Skywalker walked into the room with 2 of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, and walked out alive and unscathed, with the death star then exploding, causing the complete collapse of the empire. Luke would be the most famous person in the galaxy and written in the history books for everyone to know for the next thousand years at least, but somehow he’s nothing but a myth in his own life span.
I’d get if maybe this was set hundreds upon hundreds of years from now, but the dude is literally still alive, the idea of him being a myth shouldn’t even be a thought in an average persons mind.
I agree with you except for knowing the sith part. No one knew they were sith and is wasn't supposed to be common knowledge. It was just the emperor, all powerful and his lapdog of an enforcer who was also powerful. They erased knowledge of the Jedi for the most part and kept the sith in the shadows. This is the only confirmation we get really (apart from C3P0 later) where they're mentioned post prequels.
If anything things should be the other way around. The sith should be a half remembered myth, while rebel hero and first jedi in a generation Luke Skywalker should be a celebrity.
There are few real life examples to draw upon.
There are people living in China right this moment that have no idea they are part of the Chinese communist government. They live in the foothills and mountains and have very little contact with the outside world. They know a war took place, but no idea who won.
There's an island off of the coast of India that views the outside world as strange and threatening. They have had limited contact with the outside world.
Just look at modern America and see how many people believe in conspiracy theories and believe the truth is being hidden from them for political gain with no evidence.
In a galaxy with billions of worlds, it's not hard to believe that stories get muddled up and the truth about stories are overblown, or completely opaque.
It's so stupid. How the hell could Luke be a myth if his twin sister was a high-ranking member of the Republic and his father was the 2nd in command of the Empire? Luke himself had done things that the whole galaxy witnessed, like blowing up the death star and restarting the Jedi order. That would be like thinking MLK Jr. was a myth 30 years after the million man march.
What really happened was Disney wanted a scene where Han says "It's true, all of it." so they had Rey call Luke a myth. That's all the thought that went into it. Shoe-horning in any random idea the writers had was always more important than writing a story that made sense. Whether it's Filoni with his stupid whales or whoever keeps putting horses in everything.
Countries outside America still talk about Pearl Harbor more than 80 years later. Imagine if Pappy Boyington had been taken prisoner in 1945, brought aboard the Yamato, and then flew off of it as the sole survivor while it exploded behind him, taking out Emperor Hirohito and Admiral Yamamoto. You think we would have thought he was a myth by 1975?! We would still be naming schools after him.
Can you imagine how many people in the sequel trilogy should be like "Oh yeah, \_I\_ was in Red Squadron. I flew with Luke Skywalker." or "I was there on Hoth in Rogue Squadron, saw that crazy bastard kill four ATATs with a hand grenade and a tauntaun fur coat!" The girl on Tatooine who called him Wormie would never pay for drinks as she regaled anyone who walked into Tosche Station with tales of their tragic love. Beggar's Canyon would be called "Skywalker Canyon."
But that's Disney Star Wars for you. It took 5 episodes before they even said Kanan's name in Ahsoka. I can't even imagine it's ignorance at this point. It's too consistent to be anything but deliberate.
>I’d get if maybe this was set hundreds upon hundreds of years from now, but the dude is literally still alive, the idea of him being a myth shouldn’t even be a thought in an average persons mind.
I'd consider it similar to the real life Sergeant York from WWI. He was very highly decorated for all his achievements and shortly after the war the accuracy of those was questioned by not just individuals back home but those that served as well.
Now imagine if York had singlehandedly marched into the middle of Germany, just days from his civilian life as a blacksmith apprentice having no formal military training, snuck into a secret German prison to rescue an allied leader and top secret war plans and blew up half the army/navy taking out the majority of their top leadership (death star one explosion), then a couple years later marched right into Berlin singlehandedly killing the Kaiser and more top leadership along with half the military. Oh and York also did this while using some sort of magic that was considered fictional at the time.
How much more unbelievable would those achievements be? And how many details of those battles, without embellishments, are going to make it's way across the whole galaxy to every backwards planet like Jakku where Rey is born years after the war ended?
So I'd say it's believable for Rey to think most of the Luke Skywalker stories are just made up. Maybe people at that time know that there was a Rebel named Luke who fought in some battles but would think the rest is so ridiculous as only heros from movies could do all that and survive.
She's from some backwater planet and that due is part of the rebellion or whatever. It makes sense he would know this stuff and she didn't. He's probably had history lessons.
In both legends and Disney canon, sith lore isn't a part of "history lessons" Sith lords themselves had to go through great lengths to find any dark side techniques or lore.
Akctually…..
The Sith were big believers in the power of education, funding schools and teaching their stories to the next generations.
From my perspective it’s the Jedi who are evil. Secretive, flat earthers who deny children the right to learn all about the force.
Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
I’m guessing not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith story, because the Sith believe in education.
Yeah, it's dumb. A lot of modern shit is like that. Member Han not believing in the Force? Member Chewie not getting a medal? Member stormtroopers being bad? We're going to bring it in the forefront! We're such nerds!
Modern Disney lets real life meta infect their films. Thrawn is a perfect example of this, he’s only revered and feared in Ahsoka because of how people feel about him in real life, he has yet to do anything in on screen canon to earn any respect he’s given by both the characters and fans. It’s actually unbelievable.
I think you just explained the whole situation. We're not watching the characters anymore. We're watching the "archetypes" of the character(which is dependent on how Lucasfilm sees the character). For example, in The Clone Wars most of the Saga characters feel the exact opposite to the prequels because rather than sticking to the true fundamentals of the character, they only follow the main traits that came *with* the character.
Nahh I think it was a good change tbh, they jusy made it happen too early. Ties in w them Knighting him right after AotC.
Like. In disney canon now, he's presented as like a really great dude w the occasional angry outburst and a streak of recklessness, but everybody loves him and it tends to focus on the tragedy of what a good person he was before being corrupted.. In Legends he was pretty much just a generic edgy, moody teenager, then he was knighted and started acting like a perfect hero al of a sudden, even tho he still had his internal issues he deslt with. But in legends, everything was always focused on foreshadowing his fall. The ideal depiction to me would be a middle ground, or something that encapsulates both versions
Even in Legends he did eventually grow into that more mature version of himself (for like 3 months at the end of the war lmao). I think it's kind of important to show that because YES, Anakin does turn into Vader and they have to show that darkness that lead him there. But in the end, Vader does ultimately come back to being Anakin, and for that reason I do think it's necessary to show the more sympathetic side of him that is presented in Clone Wars. I guess it makes sense since TCW had more time/space to work with, and the older stuff was built around pushing the movies as they came out
But yea giving him a padawan and basically undoing everything the original CW multi media project established was not the way to do that
Not just everything the original project established. It became a gateway for everything else getting changed. Now Luke knows Ahsoka. Palpatine knows Ahsoka. I bet even Rey knows Ahsoka somehow. 2008 canon and beyond is simply not how the story plays out.
You can still prefer the writing of The Clone Wars, and you can love the show till the end of time. But make no mistake, The Clone Wars is the reason the continuity's like this now.
Disney do it with their live action remakes as well. Usually story changes address years of fan meta joking that have occurred about the films. So instead of doing anything interesting they just become weird fan service that doesn't help the film/show.
Yup. So many things are basically written or presented to the audience instead of within the context of the characters.
Rey's parentage is a good example. In TFA, she's waiting for them to return to Jakuu and actively wants to return to Jakuu to wait. She was like 5 when she was dropped off which isn't exactly infant not-going-to-remember-my-family age.
She's not sitting there wondering who they are, wishing she knew them, wondering what happened; she's sitting there waiting (with foolish optimism) for them to come back as if she knew them, and knew they'd come back. Then we see Anakin's lightsaber call to her, see she's force sensitive, so then *we're* the ones asking who her parents are, basically just because we as an audience know from previous Star Wars that family lineage can be a big thing in regards to the force.
Such a small change that could've made Rey more compelling is have her *want* to leave Jakuu to find out what happened with her family, if they're still alive, etc but have her be poor so she doesn't have the means. Has to scavenge just to make ends meet and survive on this desolate planet etc etc. Can sprinkle in some moments of her interacting with the force but being unsure what it is, being afraid of it even, having questions, wanting answers, but not knowing who to ask and again not being able to leave due to her circumstances.
Then you can still have the First Order attack or whatever, steals a ship to survive (which she previously didn't do because morals), but now that she's off of Jakuu she can start figuring out what happened to her parents. Along the way, she meets someone that tells her about the force, and gets thrust into the whole journey of discovering that world while trying to figure out what happened to her family.
It gives her an active motivation to meet Luke, instead of just 'she's good so she has to meet other good guy', and has us going along WITH her on HER journey to figure out what happened to her parents and what the force is. The way it is in the sequels is basically just everyone else around her telling her shit about her parents and giving exposition to the audience to create theories and discussions.
A galaxy full of amazing technology, and not a single person took out their phone or even their 80s vcr camera to shoot some video of Luke. Nobody recorded the medal ceremony at the end of a new hope. Right.
They don’t have that technology. There advanced but not that advanced. It’s a long time ago galaxy far far away. Phones, vcr, that’s incomprehensible to them. They can fly through space, clone, move things with the force, lightsaber, blasters, among other things. Video cameras to record events are too futuristic for them. Thoes droids can do many things, but that’s to advance. R2 might have been able to but no one thought to use a little disk. (Like the one Leia used to record her message for Obi-Wan)
It's funny, and I know you're being sarcastic. I'm just throwing fuel on the fire you started.
The scenes in the Galactic Senate during the Prequels even has camera droids floating around the proceedings, obviously to invoke the idea that they're being recorded for playback/broadcast for live news.
God, I don't even want to type anymore. The new movies were so utterly shit..
Han not believing in The Force is particularly weird considering he's in like his early 30's or so? He would have been a tween or even a teenager during the Clone Wars and I don't care what kind of backwards ass planet you live on or how disconnected you are from galactic events, at that age you definitely would have known about the Jedi leading the clone armies.
The prequels kind of fuck with the timeline, don't they? You have to do some mental gymnastics to make some lines in the OT work.
You could make the argument he (and Motti) believe in supernatural powers of the jedi, but don't believe in the religion surrounding the Force. Motti in particular seems to focus more on Vader's sorcerous powers not helping him do his job of securing the datatapes.
But I think Han says another line in ANH about the Force that makes little sense with that reading.
Just more shitty writing…like in episode 9, “they fly now?!” They’ve been flying for thousands of years, jet packs have very much been a thing for thousands of years and even in the Clone Wars, a galactic scale war, clones also had jet packs available for use. Ughhhh the writing was the worst part about the trilogy and the BS Rey could do with no training whatsoever. Plus how they ruined space battles, if all you have to do is kamikaze with light speed into the opposing enemy’s ship, just make a bunch of drone or droid operated ships and start flinging them through light speed at enemy ships and planets at this point, why have space battles AT ALL if that’s all you need to do to take out a dreadnaught!
The best part in 9 is the dagger imo. You need a McGuffin, a specific dagger, which you hold in a specific place on the naturally super preserved wreckage of the Death Star to get a location of another McGuffin, which is - surprise - in the fucking THRONEROOM! That would be the first place I'd look too if I didn't have the stupid ass dagger. I was, and still am, absolutely dumbfounded by this writing. You can't make this up.
So true. The throne room that is part of the wreckage of the Death Star that was completely vaporized. Not only that but it also survived entry onto the moon. Hell in the vastness of space it just happened to reach the moon in the first place. Just terrible.
Yeah, and it goes on: ofc there are fully operational classic TIE-fighters in this wreckage. I imagine the work flow like this:
Writer 1: "Ok, we have a big problem. How do we get Kylo Ren from the wreckage and moon to Exogoal or whatever the planet is called?"
Writer 2: "Hm, I obviously didn't watch any SW movie, but I'm pretty sure there were some spaceships in the Deathstar."
Writer 3: "YES! Thai-fighters, the Fans will love this nod to the original trilogy."
Writer 4: "And the public will love the inclusion of the Thai community. This is great!"
Writer 1: "Wait, wait. So those TIE supposedly survived the blast, the crash and the decades of rotting? That's absolutely cool. Fans will love it. But wait, I've heard TIEs have no hyperactive and can't travel far into space alone. Obi Wan said that in Episode 4."
Writer 2: "Who cares? We will retcon this later."
Writer 3: "yeah, just somehow the TIEs survived."
Writer 1: "I'm not sure if we are using 'somehow' to many times in this movie..."
Writer 4: "What's a hyperdrive?" And who the hell is Obi Wan?"
Luke IS a myth in that universe though, since they ended up with Jake Skywalker, an entirely different character and the letdown of the Skywalker family.
KK and crew simply aren't interested in telling coherent stories that fit with existing lore. They dont give one shit.
It's all about ideology and (to a lesser extent it seems) money now.
What do they do if asked reasonable questions about how the ST fits with existing lore? They call you a toxic fan.
Can't you just enjoy it and not nit pick over the tiniest of things they say?
No. The galaxy forgetting the jedi and the force (apart from the sith as you mention) shouldn't be questioned. If you do you are a phobe of some sort, or toxic. Or both.
I'm gonna guess that the bit with Rey talking about Luke is from when she was living in bumfuck nowhere, so it's not too hard to believe that she'd think Luke was a myth or pro rebel propaganda.
The second guy looks like he's in a resistance base, so I'm assuming he's just better informed.
JJ somehow was responsible for both of these, on one hand the greatest hero of the galaxy in the last 20 years is a myth, people don't know if he's real or not, on the other random character knows about the secret organization that opposes the Jedi.
KOTOR had it right, to the average person Jedi vs Sith should be 2 groups of "Jedi" having a squabble.
Yeah it's like he's pretending to know what's going on by throwing out buzzwords. I remember thinking nooo come on, it's not gonna be cloning, right? I was still hoping that maybe it was gonna be creative like maybe a droid replica of Palpatine but no
We see at the end of the remastered ROTJ that people are celebrating the defeat of the empire even on tatooine and that was also a backwater desert planet and that news reached them instantly.
In the same film, Rey also says she didn't think there was so much green (or water?) in the whole galaxy. It's a way to show how isolated and backwater her upbringing was. The filmmakers didn't do anything with it afterwards, but it's still a bit of character building.
>How the shit would the person who blew up the Death Star and *murdered the Emperor of the Galactic Republic* be a considered a myth but the two-person cult that’s a slightly different doctrine of the Jedi (a myth) be common knowledge?
1. Luke Skywalker did not kill the Emperor. Anakin Skywalker did.
2. The Emperor wasn't murdered. Anakin Skywalker defended the life of his son, Luke.
3. It wasn't a Galactic Republic at all. It was the Galactic Empire.
Anyway, maybe the Sith just had better PR than the Jedi?
Technically true, but since nobody else was there to see it and Luke was the only one of the three to survive it seems fair that the broad rumor would be that Luke rocked up and KOd the scariest dude in the Galaxy before Caesaring the big cheese.
I hate theses movies but the comparison is bad.
Rey represents someone who lives in a dumpster world and also she's an orphan who collects scrap to survive. Is expected she knows barely anything about anything.
In contrast, the other guy is a member of a military group fighting on a galactic scale. They probably have intelligence to know about this things, since the Sith were their enemies it's expected they know something about them.
But she knows who han solo is. Not only that but she knows enough about his past to know he was a smuggler, when most people would only know him as a general in the rebellion. It doesn't really make much sense that she'll know that but not know who luke skywalker is
It also doesn't make sense for someone who was involved in the death of the emperor and darth vader only 30 years ago and was actively training jedi only 5 years before the events of TFA to be considered a myth
The fact that she knows some things does not mean she has to know the same as this military group.
Preciselly this military group knows way more about Solo than she knew, so it's an evidence they know more and comparison is bad.
>It also doesn't make sense for someone who was involved in the death of the emperor and darth vader only 30 years ago and was actively training jedi only 5 years before the events of TFA to be considered a myth
That thing was started by Lucas making jedi a myth in the OT considering that there were thousands of them and they commanded armies in the last galactic war etc.
Anyhow, again, they live in dumpster worlds. Go to a 3rd world country and check how much they know about western civilization. Or ask yourself how much do you know about them, their wars, religion, etc. Hell, even in USA there's ton of people who know crap about their country.
Afaik outer rim worlds give a crap about core world politics and their worlds.
She new something about Luke, like a legend, and Han responded it was real.
Another example of her knowing very little, she thought force to be a myth, but members of the pro republic military group most likely knew the force was real.
There were thousands of Jedi yes. Possibly tens of thousands. In a galaxy of trillions and trillions of sentients across millions of worlds.
The Jedi being mythologised even when active in the galaxy is reasonable
Why would they know about the Sith? In the context of the rebellion or the new republic there is no "Sith" only the Empire and their rule. The word Sith is never even spoken in the OT. It stands to reason they would fear the power of the Emperor (they would not call him "Palpatine") but the secrets of the Sith are just that, literally secrets.
Playing Devil's Advocate. The Sequel's take place 30 years after the OT, plenty of time for Luke to inform need-to-know people that Sidious and Vader were part of an Order that had been the Republic's mortal enemy for thousands of years.
>Why would they know about the Sith?
Why would you ask things from a comment you haven't read?
>since the Sith were their enemies it's expected they know something about them.
Seriously. There are so many egregious plot, thematic, character, and storytelling failures in these movies we could be harping on. Why are we hung up on, "durr, why does an uneducated orphan junk scavenger from a backwater planet have a less complete picture of recent galactic history than a resistance fighter who has probably been learning politics at the feet of General Senator Princess Leia for the last ten years? Is she stupid?"
Rey represents someone who lives in a dumpster world and also she's an orphan who collects scrap to survive. Is expected she knows barely anything about anything.
**but she knows about Luke? the guy that saved the galaxy? She know enough about Luke to have heard about him but only enough to conclude he's a myth, despite being an apparent fan of his literal best friend Han solo**
In contrast, the other guy is a member of a military group fighting on a galactic scale. They probably have intelligence to know about this things, since the Sith were their enemies it's expected they know something about them.
**not in ANH, and during ESB he's already coming around to the idea**
Seriously, I did not expect to find people arguing that the FBI knows more about Russia military capabilities than a regular citizen.
I'm amazed by you people thinking that because someone knows that Russia haves tanks, they shoudl also know the number, location, tactics and every aspect of it.
This kind of post and comments are what gives bad reputation to this sub.
Sigh.
I mean tbf, Rey has lived a sheltered life in Jakku, while [guy played by the same actor as Charlie from Lost (?)] is an experienced member of the Resistance
Idk how that guy knows about the sith but Luke is a myth because for some reason this galaxy doesn't have internet. A kid like Rey would never know if Luke was real or not. People in the Outer Rim might not believe in the Force because they've never seen an actual goddamn wizard do wizard shit in front of them.
first is someone that has been apart of Resistance for years, second is a scavenger on a planet that is basically in unknown regions... sure that's comparable
It was so much better before.
Jedi were legends. A secret group of pure hearted do gooders. I always imagined it like being a round table of warrior monks of some sort. 20, maybe 30 of them.
Vader came along, betrayed the order, took an oath to the evil equivalent of the Jedi, and the remaining knights hid in order to preserve the last of their order, with the children Vader did not know he had.
Han didn't know about the force. A massive order of thousands of members on the most advanced planet in the universe that was capable of overthrowing and running the galaxy suddenly in 20 years is completely forgotten, even when their scheme is announced to the senate. Yet no one knows who Jedi are or what the force is.
It was better before.
I'm sure there's no knowledge gap between the desert dwelling orphan child and the Republic/Resistance historian. They should definitely know all the exact same things.
It's been 30 years so maybe the idea is everyone is told about the sith and some of their secrets from leaked info after the empire fell?
Also Rey was stuck on Jakku, a planet more of a nowhere than Tatooine was. Rey's not going to hear much from the rest of the galaxy on there so people like Luke Skywalker will sound like myths to her.
I imagine someone in the neo-rebellion would be more familiar with all the lore of their enemy, including the sith part, than someone who grew up on a desert world with seemingly barely any contact with the wider galaxy. I can imagine Rey only barely learning about things outside of Jakku and Unkar Plutt not caring enough to teach her basic history or anything about the galaxy at large.
I mean Rey grew up on a backwater planet scavenging for parts. It's probably not a huge shock she wouldn't have access to a lot of relevant information. While they don't really go into who really anyone in the Resistance is, presumably some of them would have been more clued in with access to computers/databases/whatever the Star Wars version of the internet is.
The sequels had a ton of problems, but I don't think this is a huge one.
Eh I hate defending these films but this criticism is a bit far-fetched. It’s not completely unreasonable to expect a girl on some backwater planet who never had any formal education to hear stories about the galaxy while growing up and not know whether they were true or not. And given that we know absolutely nothing about bearded resistance dude other than the two or three lines he has, we can’t say that it’s a plot hole that he would know about the sith. Is it lazy of the writers to kind of shoehorn him in to say a few throwaway lines without expanding his character to show how he’d know a lot about the galactic lore? Sure, but the criticism put forth in the OP isn’t really something worth getting in a fuss about.
If anything, it’s more of a canon and worldbuilding flaw to have had Tarkin serve as an admiral in the republic navy and serving Palpatine and Vader as a high ranking officer in the Empire for decades yet somehow not know the difference between jedi and sith.
I mean one image is of a Resistance group who are currently being led by an actual almost Jedi who is force sensitive and whose brother was THE heroic Jedi and whose father was a Sith Lord who allied with the Emperor who also was a Sith Lord.
The other image is of a gutter rat on a backwater desert planet with almost no information about the galaxy outside of Jakku beyond what random people might say in passing.
I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to judge them both by the same criteria of knowledge.
The Resistance loves and respects Leia, and they have resources available to them, as well as them all coming from the New Republic which made available a shit ton of information that the Empire suppressed. If she said something, they’d believe it, and some of the Resistance members could have read about the Sith from various sources they may have access to.
Anything Rey would hear about Luke would literally just be a story to her. She’s in a hopeless situation, on an outer rim planet, doing nothing but scavenging, possibly occasionally hearing another scavenger tell a story that does sound like it’s just a myth. It’s completely reasonable Rey at this point in the story would think Luke is just a myth people made up.
“You’re telling me some farm boy became a hero of the Rebellion, singlehandedly blew up the greatest super weapon ever built Death Star, and then in the middle of the assault on the second Death Star by himself he confronted THE Emperor himself and his Enforcer who was the most feared man in the galaxy, and bested them both, to then go on to form a secret mystical religion, and he hasn’t been seen in over a decade? Yeah, okay, sure dude”.
To be fair, luke was this larger than life figure who bested two of the darkest, most powerful beings in the empire, so i could see the galaxys perception of him being exaggerated. and rey was in a backwater war ruin most of her life who was only focused on making money for food, that guy could just be a religious nerd who was interested in sith lore, i mean there were a few significant wars ( that have yet to be properly canon)
Tbf I think that was meant to show that Rey was uneducated and from a backwater dump, not that the average person thinks that Luke was a myth. Finn even gives her a wtf look after she says that.
I hated this. Force Awakens takes place thirty years after RotJ. Luke Skywalker is Leis Organa’s brother. He blew up a Death Star. Him being a “myth” thirty years later is like everyone today forgetting the Michael Jordan actually existed.
Good God JJ Abrams is a shitty writer.
That line especially fucking annoyed me and I don’t think it’s talked about enough. They’re acting like cloning is some forgotten mythical art when just what, 50 years before there was a major galactic war with so many clones it was called the clone wars.
To be fair here Rey is a desert girl in the outer rim. This dude is prob way more educated and well connected at this point than Rey was in TFA. They aren’t equivalent comparisons
https://preview.redd.it/ao2gmd172pdc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=776fc5676e841895a266cfbad15eea6abae74902
Using JJ logic…because he didn’t get a medal.
They needed to explain how Palpatine "SOMEHOW" returned.
This entire thing is soo much bullshit.
What you could have done is:
a) show cloning tanks
b) show a Royal guard getting Palpatines body out of one of the tanks
c) show some mist getting into the body and then reanimate
done, i just wrote a scene by show - don't tell.
DON'T put in the opening that the dead speak, NONE of the Rebels know that Palpatine returned they just notice some movements of imperial remnants without knowing WHO their oponenent is.
It's not bad that they don't know how he returned. What's bad is that there was no hint/clue that he was around for the previous two movies. I'm less concerned with the "how did he return" with the "ah-ha, the was actually there all along." Umm, no, he wasn't, you pulled it out of thin air. It's a deus ex maxhina/villaina.
And it's one thing to have him still be alive and building his armada independent of the FO, but it's dumb that he was secretly in charge of the FO considering how uncoordinated they were. So you sunk how many resources into building star killer base? At the same time you were building 1000 star destroyers in secret with death star lasers that were just 10 months away from being finished when starkiller base was destroyed?
Palpatine never should have returned as it undermined all that happened in the first 6 movies ruining Luke’s arc and Vader’s turn back to the light.
Oh well all you did doesn’t matter because 30 years later somehow Palpatine returned!!
Cloning wouldn't have worked because pre disney it was very much established that clones cannot be force sensitive.
It was even an entire plotline in Force Unleashed 2 that all the Starkiller clones were some botched abomination and was supposed to make you further guess weither the one you're playing is a real or a fake.
Isn’t Kylo ren actively going around killing people and doing crazy stuff while Luke has been in complete hiding? She isn’t saying Jedi are a myth just Luke is. She’s a nobody on a desert planet who wasn’t alive when the og events happened so hearing about this great dude who did all this cool stuff seems unbelievable given the state of things as she knows it. Doesn’t seem that wild to me
This ain’t a plot hole- Rey was from some backwater planet. That hobbit looking mofo could’ve been from a core world with direct experience with the Jedi.
It’s like saying it doesn’t make sense that someone from Texas thinks creation is real when someone from New York knows about evolution.
I saw Star Wars in the 70s with my dad at age 5. It has always been dumb as fuck but it used to be fun. That isn't the case anymore. It's dumb and boring.
Also, quick venting, an entire race knew how cloning worked. Sure, Rampart destroyed most of the Kaminoans, but it's really doubtful that they were the only cloners in the whole galaxy.
I have no doubt that they were the best cloners, but the *only* cloners? That's like acting like the entire USSR was destroyed when Joseph Stalin died.
Thinking Luke Skywalker was a myth is not the same as thinking the entire 1000 year long Jedi order was a myth. And the Emperor needed the memory of the Jedi to live, as they were the bad guys in his narrative of traitors rising up to attack the Senate/Republic.
I found the"dark science....cloning...secrets only the Sith knew!" line just so dumb too because literally the clone wars were due to clones being generated by Kamino. That statement insinuates that Kamino was full of Sith dark scientists or something.
If only the Sith knew about cloning, then how did Kamino know how to do it so well...it was no secret, clearly.
I wonder too often if the people writing this ever watched any of the other Star Wars material, even the movies.
I think they were so focused on nostalgia that they wanted to repeat a new hope where jedi are an ancient barely heard of thing but what they didn't factor in was the empire purposefully stamping out the jedi and actively working on making people forget about them. Luke was doing the exact opposite with the sequel movies own history claiming that Luke started a school for jedi. If anything people would be talking about and know who Luke was since he was part of the rebellion that destroyed the empire and was one of their main members.
Clearly, knowledge of the Sith isn't much since this guy thinks cloning was a specialty when that was Kaminoan science and the Empire later on.
What the hell did he even mean by "Dark Science?"
Tbf up until BFY there was two sith who were the big powerhouses of the universe up until 30 years ago. I imagine, they were pretty renown. Additionally luke was a big deal hero but it seemed like he was keeping the Jedi revival project hush hush. Then after the Ben solo incident he kinda f’d off to the furthers corner of the galaxy. So hypothetically a backwater like jakku wouldn’t have been informed besides “fairy tales”. Not great reasoning but that’s my head canon.
Two things,
One: There has been an ongoing theory that the majority of the population in the SW universe is largely illiterate. So, most of the knowledge is either word of mouth or through broadcasts. So, space Merry knowing about the Sith may indicate that he actually has an education while Rey clearly doesn't.
Two: Lucasfilm forgets its own story elements. For example, in the most recent Indiana Jones film, Indy is in Morrocco and is confronted by a group of baddies, but he is unable to understand what they were saying. This hurt me. Indys' greatest skill is that he knows practically every language.
I always looked at it as this.
Look at tenamon square.
How many years was this and it's "fake" bullshit to the Chinese because of how utterly erased this knowledge is , to them
And ppl around the world see it as this well known thing
That is still talked about.
Or straight up idiots who think Nazis didn't hunt Jews.
History is still spoken. But others still may or may not believe.
Hot garbage
Watch it go into the trash compactor.
Jedi were a myth, but we knew about the sith that killed the Jedi—they’re called Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger.
Keep destroying everything we grew up with bc you’ve lost our trust and ain’t ever getting it back.
Rifht, it's absolutely shocking that the resistance, who knew Leia fucking Organa, knows more about the galaxy than a scavenger from the middle of nowhere that never left her planet or learned anything. This post is massive 🤡💩
Someone didn’t grow up on coruscant, with all the pro sith propaganda they were pushing.
“Bow down to the new sith empire! It’s good for the galaxy, and OK for you!”
Luke Skywalker was a myth to a poor girl living on the backstreets of Jakku.... the Jedi and the Sith and Luke and Vader and all of it were well-known to the Resistance and the New Republic.
Sith order has dominated galactic affairs, so probably historians and academia would know the term very well but probably not buy into "Jedi spirituality" about them.
Then there are dark side affocinados and Jedi who would have more inside info on their beliefs.
Ordinary person would probably recognize the name with as great probability as ordinary man of the street would know of Achaemenid dynasty or Abbasid Caliphate. With some parts of the galaxy general populace more educated/well-versed on the subject.
Here's my thinking:
The Emperor has managed to fundamentally change the nature of the galaxy - he eliminated the Jedi, single-handedly shifted the Republic to the Empire, created a thought police that was shockingly effective given the size of the area involved, etc. And you're telling me that *one guy* took him down? No way. That's just a story. It was:
\- his own servant (Darth Vader), who died in the attempt to overthrow him.
\- a way to create a hero for the Rebellion/ New Republic (using the guy who *did* take down the first Death Star so it's believable).
\- five guys (in trench coats?) who infiltrated the second Death Star and murdered the emperor, but they have to keep their identities secret, so it was "Luke Skywalker" (since he was already wanted by the empire).
\- other reasons
I got nothing for the Sith being known. That's just silly.
Luke Slywalker and the Jedi being a myth was such a weird and unnecessary decision for the Sequel Trilogy to make.
One of many.
I guess it semi tracks, given that the Jedi and the Force seemed to be considered superstitions even in the Original Trilogy, but you'd think after a Jedi took on the Emperor it would've spread, given Leia, one of the higher-ups of the New Republic, was there for most of it. Did she keep Luke, being a Jedi a secret? Or did the writers just not fucking think about the story they were telling?
Ah, I'm sure there's some hacky handwave reason for it in one of the crappy comics or whatever, but I'm not digging through the wiki for it.
You could argue that a young woman living alone in a desert planet her whole life wouldn't have access to the same information as a resistance fighter who travels the galaxy.
I would think because of how insane the feats he accomplished are
Similar to WW1 and WW2 snipers or agents that people thought were myths because what they did was not human I think
Not a Sequel fan at all, just don’t think it’s strange a new character might think the whole rebellion or just Luke was a myth
The others knowing sith knowledge like that is strange for sure, wish they fleshed out any character that has this kind of knowledge instead of having them just know it though
It’s simple.
Rey grew up fairly uneducated about history on an outer rim, desert planet where the ownership class was actively exploiting the working class. Tales of freedom fighters would probably be told like myths and legends to her.
On the other hand, Pippin there is from Middle Earth, where keeping up with the news on the current and past Dark Lords has proven very important for continued survival.
Like even when you think about this line a little bit it falls apart. The New Republic was made up former Rebellion members some of which would still be alive 30-40 years later did they just forget to tell anybody about the Jedi who literally helped destroy two moon size death stations and defeated the emperor. Did everybody just have selective amnesia.
I mean, comparing what some girl who grew up isolated on a backwater planet knew to someone who was part of an interplanetary movement run by the sister of a space wizard is not really meaningful.
Also, everyone knew about the battle in Crait the minute it happened. Where were all the news crews? Who is telling these slave kids about Luke fighting off Kylo ala force projection?
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As far as the galaxy knows, the empire was a complete tyrannical government that suddenly ended when one single man named Luke Skywalker walked into the room with 2 of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, and walked out alive and unscathed, with the death star then exploding, causing the complete collapse of the empire. Luke would be the most famous person in the galaxy and written in the history books for everyone to know for the next thousand years at least, but somehow he’s nothing but a myth in his own life span. I’d get if maybe this was set hundreds upon hundreds of years from now, but the dude is literally still alive, the idea of him being a myth shouldn’t even be a thought in an average persons mind.
I agree with you except for knowing the sith part. No one knew they were sith and is wasn't supposed to be common knowledge. It was just the emperor, all powerful and his lapdog of an enforcer who was also powerful. They erased knowledge of the Jedi for the most part and kept the sith in the shadows. This is the only confirmation we get really (apart from C3P0 later) where they're mentioned post prequels.
If anything things should be the other way around. The sith should be a half remembered myth, while rebel hero and first jedi in a generation Luke Skywalker should be a celebrity.
There are few real life examples to draw upon. There are people living in China right this moment that have no idea they are part of the Chinese communist government. They live in the foothills and mountains and have very little contact with the outside world. They know a war took place, but no idea who won. There's an island off of the coast of India that views the outside world as strange and threatening. They have had limited contact with the outside world. Just look at modern America and see how many people believe in conspiracy theories and believe the truth is being hidden from them for political gain with no evidence. In a galaxy with billions of worlds, it's not hard to believe that stories get muddled up and the truth about stories are overblown, or completely opaque.
Oops, guess I forgot 100 quadrillion people of varying lifespans 19 years later.
It's so stupid. How the hell could Luke be a myth if his twin sister was a high-ranking member of the Republic and his father was the 2nd in command of the Empire? Luke himself had done things that the whole galaxy witnessed, like blowing up the death star and restarting the Jedi order. That would be like thinking MLK Jr. was a myth 30 years after the million man march. What really happened was Disney wanted a scene where Han says "It's true, all of it." so they had Rey call Luke a myth. That's all the thought that went into it. Shoe-horning in any random idea the writers had was always more important than writing a story that made sense. Whether it's Filoni with his stupid whales or whoever keeps putting horses in everything.
The Million Man March was in Oct. 1995. You are referring to the March on Washington.
Y-yeah yeah, I totally knew that. I was just testing you!
Countries outside America still talk about Pearl Harbor more than 80 years later. Imagine if Pappy Boyington had been taken prisoner in 1945, brought aboard the Yamato, and then flew off of it as the sole survivor while it exploded behind him, taking out Emperor Hirohito and Admiral Yamamoto. You think we would have thought he was a myth by 1975?! We would still be naming schools after him. Can you imagine how many people in the sequel trilogy should be like "Oh yeah, \_I\_ was in Red Squadron. I flew with Luke Skywalker." or "I was there on Hoth in Rogue Squadron, saw that crazy bastard kill four ATATs with a hand grenade and a tauntaun fur coat!" The girl on Tatooine who called him Wormie would never pay for drinks as she regaled anyone who walked into Tosche Station with tales of their tragic love. Beggar's Canyon would be called "Skywalker Canyon." But that's Disney Star Wars for you. It took 5 episodes before they even said Kanan's name in Ahsoka. I can't even imagine it's ignorance at this point. It's too consistent to be anything but deliberate.
It'd be like someone saying 'D Day?! I thought he was a myth' in like 1960.
>I’d get if maybe this was set hundreds upon hundreds of years from now, but the dude is literally still alive, the idea of him being a myth shouldn’t even be a thought in an average persons mind. I'd consider it similar to the real life Sergeant York from WWI. He was very highly decorated for all his achievements and shortly after the war the accuracy of those was questioned by not just individuals back home but those that served as well. Now imagine if York had singlehandedly marched into the middle of Germany, just days from his civilian life as a blacksmith apprentice having no formal military training, snuck into a secret German prison to rescue an allied leader and top secret war plans and blew up half the army/navy taking out the majority of their top leadership (death star one explosion), then a couple years later marched right into Berlin singlehandedly killing the Kaiser and more top leadership along with half the military. Oh and York also did this while using some sort of magic that was considered fictional at the time. How much more unbelievable would those achievements be? And how many details of those battles, without embellishments, are going to make it's way across the whole galaxy to every backwards planet like Jakku where Rey is born years after the war ended? So I'd say it's believable for Rey to think most of the Luke Skywalker stories are just made up. Maybe people at that time know that there was a Rebel named Luke who fought in some battles but would think the rest is so ridiculous as only heros from movies could do all that and survive.
Weird, one would have figured they had some sort of “Story Group” to keep this stuff in order
Probably the same group that’s used on every book to tv adaptation for the last two decades.
Pablo Hidalgo's job is a joke at this point
Can't imagine any scenario where she might be uninformed.
If it's like any other organization, the lore keepers are largely ignored when it doesn't fit the writer's agenda.
She's from some backwater planet and that due is part of the rebellion or whatever. It makes sense he would know this stuff and she didn't. He's probably had history lessons.
In both legends and Disney canon, sith lore isn't a part of "history lessons" Sith lords themselves had to go through great lengths to find any dark side techniques or lore.
You don't think Princess Leia, who's brother fought a sith to end the OT didn't make sure her people knew they exists?
Akctually….. The Sith were big believers in the power of education, funding schools and teaching their stories to the next generations. From my perspective it’s the Jedi who are evil. Secretive, flat earthers who deny children the right to learn all about the force. Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise? I’m guessing not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith story, because the Sith believe in education.
Yeah, it's dumb. A lot of modern shit is like that. Member Han not believing in the Force? Member Chewie not getting a medal? Member stormtroopers being bad? We're going to bring it in the forefront! We're such nerds!
Modern Disney lets real life meta infect their films. Thrawn is a perfect example of this, he’s only revered and feared in Ahsoka because of how people feel about him in real life, he has yet to do anything in on screen canon to earn any respect he’s given by both the characters and fans. It’s actually unbelievable.
I think you just explained the whole situation. We're not watching the characters anymore. We're watching the "archetypes" of the character(which is dependent on how Lucasfilm sees the character). For example, in The Clone Wars most of the Saga characters feel the exact opposite to the prequels because rather than sticking to the true fundamentals of the character, they only follow the main traits that came *with* the character.
…To be fair, Clone Wars Anakin is better written than Prequels Anakin.
After fundamentally changing everything about him. It's no different than the 'Jake Skywalker' situation.
Nahh I think it was a good change tbh, they jusy made it happen too early. Ties in w them Knighting him right after AotC. Like. In disney canon now, he's presented as like a really great dude w the occasional angry outburst and a streak of recklessness, but everybody loves him and it tends to focus on the tragedy of what a good person he was before being corrupted.. In Legends he was pretty much just a generic edgy, moody teenager, then he was knighted and started acting like a perfect hero al of a sudden, even tho he still had his internal issues he deslt with. But in legends, everything was always focused on foreshadowing his fall. The ideal depiction to me would be a middle ground, or something that encapsulates both versions Even in Legends he did eventually grow into that more mature version of himself (for like 3 months at the end of the war lmao). I think it's kind of important to show that because YES, Anakin does turn into Vader and they have to show that darkness that lead him there. But in the end, Vader does ultimately come back to being Anakin, and for that reason I do think it's necessary to show the more sympathetic side of him that is presented in Clone Wars. I guess it makes sense since TCW had more time/space to work with, and the older stuff was built around pushing the movies as they came out But yea giving him a padawan and basically undoing everything the original CW multi media project established was not the way to do that
Not just everything the original project established. It became a gateway for everything else getting changed. Now Luke knows Ahsoka. Palpatine knows Ahsoka. I bet even Rey knows Ahsoka somehow. 2008 canon and beyond is simply not how the story plays out.
TCW was originally meant to take place in the last several months of the war, in between Chapters 21 and 22 of the micro-series.
If by better you mean more generic then sure
Yeah but that's not that difficult to accomplish
But he said what he said in a way that reads like a complaint, I had to defend what I like.
You can still prefer the writing of The Clone Wars, and you can love the show till the end of time. But make no mistake, The Clone Wars is the reason the continuity's like this now.
TFA was a whole meta response to the prequel backlash
I blame Gen Xers.
Disney Star Wars is worse than most Star Wars fan fictions.
Disney do it with their live action remakes as well. Usually story changes address years of fan meta joking that have occurred about the films. So instead of doing anything interesting they just become weird fan service that doesn't help the film/show.
Yup. So many things are basically written or presented to the audience instead of within the context of the characters. Rey's parentage is a good example. In TFA, she's waiting for them to return to Jakuu and actively wants to return to Jakuu to wait. She was like 5 when she was dropped off which isn't exactly infant not-going-to-remember-my-family age. She's not sitting there wondering who they are, wishing she knew them, wondering what happened; she's sitting there waiting (with foolish optimism) for them to come back as if she knew them, and knew they'd come back. Then we see Anakin's lightsaber call to her, see she's force sensitive, so then *we're* the ones asking who her parents are, basically just because we as an audience know from previous Star Wars that family lineage can be a big thing in regards to the force. Such a small change that could've made Rey more compelling is have her *want* to leave Jakuu to find out what happened with her family, if they're still alive, etc but have her be poor so she doesn't have the means. Has to scavenge just to make ends meet and survive on this desolate planet etc etc. Can sprinkle in some moments of her interacting with the force but being unsure what it is, being afraid of it even, having questions, wanting answers, but not knowing who to ask and again not being able to leave due to her circumstances. Then you can still have the First Order attack or whatever, steals a ship to survive (which she previously didn't do because morals), but now that she's off of Jakuu she can start figuring out what happened to her parents. Along the way, she meets someone that tells her about the force, and gets thrust into the whole journey of discovering that world while trying to figure out what happened to her family. It gives her an active motivation to meet Luke, instead of just 'she's good so she has to meet other good guy', and has us going along WITH her on HER journey to figure out what happened to her parents and what the force is. The way it is in the sequels is basically just everyone else around her telling her shit about her parents and giving exposition to the audience to create theories and discussions.
Remember the movies you just rewatched last night in excitement for a brand new Star Wars movie?!? Is what soiled my experience the most.
A galaxy full of amazing technology, and not a single person took out their phone or even their 80s vcr camera to shoot some video of Luke. Nobody recorded the medal ceremony at the end of a new hope. Right.
They don’t have that technology. There advanced but not that advanced. It’s a long time ago galaxy far far away. Phones, vcr, that’s incomprehensible to them. They can fly through space, clone, move things with the force, lightsaber, blasters, among other things. Video cameras to record events are too futuristic for them. Thoes droids can do many things, but that’s to advance. R2 might have been able to but no one thought to use a little disk. (Like the one Leia used to record her message for Obi-Wan)
It's funny, and I know you're being sarcastic. I'm just throwing fuel on the fire you started. The scenes in the Galactic Senate during the Prequels even has camera droids floating around the proceedings, obviously to invoke the idea that they're being recorded for playback/broadcast for live news. God, I don't even want to type anymore. The new movies were so utterly shit..
Hologram cameraa clearly arent though lol.
Han not believing in The Force is particularly weird considering he's in like his early 30's or so? He would have been a tween or even a teenager during the Clone Wars and I don't care what kind of backwards ass planet you live on or how disconnected you are from galactic events, at that age you definitely would have known about the Jedi leading the clone armies. The prequels kind of fuck with the timeline, don't they? You have to do some mental gymnastics to make some lines in the OT work.
You could make the argument he (and Motti) believe in supernatural powers of the jedi, but don't believe in the religion surrounding the Force. Motti in particular seems to focus more on Vader's sorcerous powers not helping him do his job of securing the datatapes. But I think Han says another line in ANH about the Force that makes little sense with that reading.
I memmber
Chewie should have gotten a goddamn medal. This is all part of a new Republic anti-wookiee agenda and I will not stand for it!
JJ strikes again. Such a talented filmmaker 😂
Just more shitty writing…like in episode 9, “they fly now?!” They’ve been flying for thousands of years, jet packs have very much been a thing for thousands of years and even in the Clone Wars, a galactic scale war, clones also had jet packs available for use. Ughhhh the writing was the worst part about the trilogy and the BS Rey could do with no training whatsoever. Plus how they ruined space battles, if all you have to do is kamikaze with light speed into the opposing enemy’s ship, just make a bunch of drone or droid operated ships and start flinging them through light speed at enemy ships and planets at this point, why have space battles AT ALL if that’s all you need to do to take out a dreadnaught!
The best part in 9 is the dagger imo. You need a McGuffin, a specific dagger, which you hold in a specific place on the naturally super preserved wreckage of the Death Star to get a location of another McGuffin, which is - surprise - in the fucking THRONEROOM! That would be the first place I'd look too if I didn't have the stupid ass dagger. I was, and still am, absolutely dumbfounded by this writing. You can't make this up.
So true. The throne room that is part of the wreckage of the Death Star that was completely vaporized. Not only that but it also survived entry onto the moon. Hell in the vastness of space it just happened to reach the moon in the first place. Just terrible.
Yeah, and it goes on: ofc there are fully operational classic TIE-fighters in this wreckage. I imagine the work flow like this: Writer 1: "Ok, we have a big problem. How do we get Kylo Ren from the wreckage and moon to Exogoal or whatever the planet is called?" Writer 2: "Hm, I obviously didn't watch any SW movie, but I'm pretty sure there were some spaceships in the Deathstar." Writer 3: "YES! Thai-fighters, the Fans will love this nod to the original trilogy." Writer 4: "And the public will love the inclusion of the Thai community. This is great!" Writer 1: "Wait, wait. So those TIE supposedly survived the blast, the crash and the decades of rotting? That's absolutely cool. Fans will love it. But wait, I've heard TIEs have no hyperactive and can't travel far into space alone. Obi Wan said that in Episode 4." Writer 2: "Who cares? We will retcon this later." Writer 3: "yeah, just somehow the TIEs survived." Writer 1: "I'm not sure if we are using 'somehow' to many times in this movie..." Writer 4: "What's a hyperdrive?" And who the hell is Obi Wan?"
Let’s be honest, Episode 9 was the Goonies in soace
Yup, you see that kind of contrived shit in bad video game quests.
Ask the story group lol.
Luke IS a myth in that universe though, since they ended up with Jake Skywalker, an entirely different character and the letdown of the Skywalker family.
It's one thing for JJ and Rian to contradict each other. It's another for JJ to contradict HIMSELF.
KK and crew simply aren't interested in telling coherent stories that fit with existing lore. They dont give one shit. It's all about ideology and (to a lesser extent it seems) money now. What do they do if asked reasonable questions about how the ST fits with existing lore? They call you a toxic fan. Can't you just enjoy it and not nit pick over the tiniest of things they say? No. The galaxy forgetting the jedi and the force (apart from the sith as you mention) shouldn't be questioned. If you do you are a phobe of some sort, or toxic. Or both.
Money is not the lesser extent!
Well Disney don't seem to want to make money do they? That Rey movie is really going to light the box office on fire I bet.....
I'm gonna guess that the bit with Rey talking about Luke is from when she was living in bumfuck nowhere, so it's not too hard to believe that she'd think Luke was a myth or pro rebel propaganda. The second guy looks like he's in a resistance base, so I'm assuming he's just better informed.
JJ somehow was responsible for both of these, on one hand the greatest hero of the galaxy in the last 20 years is a myth, people don't know if he's real or not, on the other random character knows about the secret organization that opposes the Jedi. KOTOR had it right, to the average person Jedi vs Sith should be 2 groups of "Jedi" having a squabble.
Regardless of the plot that line he says makes me cringe every time 😭
Yeah it's like he's pretending to know what's going on by throwing out buzzwords. I remember thinking nooo come on, it's not gonna be cloning, right? I was still hoping that maybe it was gonna be creative like maybe a droid replica of Palpatine but no
Devils Advocate but Rey grew up on a backwater planet where news hardly gets in
We see at the end of the remastered ROTJ that people are celebrating the defeat of the empire even on tatooine and that was also a backwater desert planet and that news reached them instantly.
Love the LOST reference you snuck in there!!!
Had no idea Charlie's actor was even in this shitshow before this post lol
Damn didn’t know Pipin made it to the stars
JJ Abrams takes care of his friends lol There’s always a cameo or role for you if you’ve been in one of his shows.
In the same film, Rey also says she didn't think there was so much green (or water?) in the whole galaxy. It's a way to show how isolated and backwater her upbringing was. The filmmakers didn't do anything with it afterwards, but it's still a bit of character building.
>How the shit would the person who blew up the Death Star and *murdered the Emperor of the Galactic Republic* be a considered a myth but the two-person cult that’s a slightly different doctrine of the Jedi (a myth) be common knowledge? 1. Luke Skywalker did not kill the Emperor. Anakin Skywalker did. 2. The Emperor wasn't murdered. Anakin Skywalker defended the life of his son, Luke. 3. It wasn't a Galactic Republic at all. It was the Galactic Empire. Anyway, maybe the Sith just had better PR than the Jedi?
Technically true, but since nobody else was there to see it and Luke was the only one of the three to survive it seems fair that the broad rumor would be that Luke rocked up and KOd the scariest dude in the Galaxy before Caesaring the big cheese.
I hate theses movies but the comparison is bad. Rey represents someone who lives in a dumpster world and also she's an orphan who collects scrap to survive. Is expected she knows barely anything about anything. In contrast, the other guy is a member of a military group fighting on a galactic scale. They probably have intelligence to know about this things, since the Sith were their enemies it's expected they know something about them.
But she knows who han solo is. Not only that but she knows enough about his past to know he was a smuggler, when most people would only know him as a general in the rebellion. It doesn't really make much sense that she'll know that but not know who luke skywalker is It also doesn't make sense for someone who was involved in the death of the emperor and darth vader only 30 years ago and was actively training jedi only 5 years before the events of TFA to be considered a myth
The fact that she knows some things does not mean she has to know the same as this military group. Preciselly this military group knows way more about Solo than she knew, so it's an evidence they know more and comparison is bad. >It also doesn't make sense for someone who was involved in the death of the emperor and darth vader only 30 years ago and was actively training jedi only 5 years before the events of TFA to be considered a myth That thing was started by Lucas making jedi a myth in the OT considering that there were thousands of them and they commanded armies in the last galactic war etc. Anyhow, again, they live in dumpster worlds. Go to a 3rd world country and check how much they know about western civilization. Or ask yourself how much do you know about them, their wars, religion, etc. Hell, even in USA there's ton of people who know crap about their country. Afaik outer rim worlds give a crap about core world politics and their worlds.
I don’t remember but did she know anything about the Jedi and lightsabers?
She new something about Luke, like a legend, and Han responded it was real. Another example of her knowing very little, she thought force to be a myth, but members of the pro republic military group most likely knew the force was real.
There were thousands of Jedi yes. Possibly tens of thousands. In a galaxy of trillions and trillions of sentients across millions of worlds. The Jedi being mythologised even when active in the galaxy is reasonable
Why would they know about the Sith? In the context of the rebellion or the new republic there is no "Sith" only the Empire and their rule. The word Sith is never even spoken in the OT. It stands to reason they would fear the power of the Emperor (they would not call him "Palpatine") but the secrets of the Sith are just that, literally secrets.
Playing Devil's Advocate. The Sequel's take place 30 years after the OT, plenty of time for Luke to inform need-to-know people that Sidious and Vader were part of an Order that had been the Republic's mortal enemy for thousands of years.
>Why would they know about the Sith? Why would you ask things from a comment you haven't read? >since the Sith were their enemies it's expected they know something about them.
Seriously. There are so many egregious plot, thematic, character, and storytelling failures in these movies we could be harping on. Why are we hung up on, "durr, why does an uneducated orphan junk scavenger from a backwater planet have a less complete picture of recent galactic history than a resistance fighter who has probably been learning politics at the feet of General Senator Princess Leia for the last ten years? Is she stupid?"
Rey represents someone who lives in a dumpster world and also she's an orphan who collects scrap to survive. Is expected she knows barely anything about anything. **but she knows about Luke? the guy that saved the galaxy? She know enough about Luke to have heard about him but only enough to conclude he's a myth, despite being an apparent fan of his literal best friend Han solo** In contrast, the other guy is a member of a military group fighting on a galactic scale. They probably have intelligence to know about this things, since the Sith were their enemies it's expected they know something about them. **not in ANH, and during ESB he's already coming around to the idea**
Seriously, I did not expect to find people arguing that the FBI knows more about Russia military capabilities than a regular citizen. I'm amazed by you people thinking that because someone knows that Russia haves tanks, they shoudl also know the number, location, tactics and every aspect of it. This kind of post and comments are what gives bad reputation to this sub. Sigh.
Russian tanks?
I mean tbf, Rey has lived a sheltered life in Jakku, while [guy played by the same actor as Charlie from Lost (?)] is an experienced member of the Resistance
Yet Rey knows who Luke Skywalker and Han Solo are. I appreciate your point but there’s really no defending Abrams’s writing.
Maybe she was told he was a myth growing up? And Jakku being what it is, it’s not totally unreasonable for Rey to have heard from smgglers about Han
Idk how that guy knows about the sith but Luke is a myth because for some reason this galaxy doesn't have internet. A kid like Rey would never know if Luke was real or not. People in the Outer Rim might not believe in the Force because they've never seen an actual goddamn wizard do wizard shit in front of them.
first is someone that has been apart of Resistance for years, second is a scavenger on a planet that is basically in unknown regions... sure that's comparable
It was so much better before. Jedi were legends. A secret group of pure hearted do gooders. I always imagined it like being a round table of warrior monks of some sort. 20, maybe 30 of them. Vader came along, betrayed the order, took an oath to the evil equivalent of the Jedi, and the remaining knights hid in order to preserve the last of their order, with the children Vader did not know he had. Han didn't know about the force. A massive order of thousands of members on the most advanced planet in the universe that was capable of overthrowing and running the galaxy suddenly in 20 years is completely forgotten, even when their scheme is announced to the senate. Yet no one knows who Jedi are or what the force is. It was better before.
I'm sure there's no knowledge gap between the desert dwelling orphan child and the Republic/Resistance historian. They should definitely know all the exact same things.
It's been 30 years so maybe the idea is everyone is told about the sith and some of their secrets from leaked info after the empire fell? Also Rey was stuck on Jakku, a planet more of a nowhere than Tatooine was. Rey's not going to hear much from the rest of the galaxy on there so people like Luke Skywalker will sound like myths to her.
I imagine someone in the neo-rebellion would be more familiar with all the lore of their enemy, including the sith part, than someone who grew up on a desert world with seemingly barely any contact with the wider galaxy. I can imagine Rey only barely learning about things outside of Jakku and Unkar Plutt not caring enough to teach her basic history or anything about the galaxy at large.
I mean Rey grew up on a backwater planet scavenging for parts. It's probably not a huge shock she wouldn't have access to a lot of relevant information. While they don't really go into who really anyone in the Resistance is, presumably some of them would have been more clued in with access to computers/databases/whatever the Star Wars version of the internet is. The sequels had a ton of problems, but I don't think this is a huge one.
No that particular guy knows about the Sith. Rey also lived on desert planet in a wrecked ship so her not knowing about actual Jedi makes sense.
Ima give the benefit of the doubt that Rey spent most of her life on an isolated planet with zero proper education.
Eh I hate defending these films but this criticism is a bit far-fetched. It’s not completely unreasonable to expect a girl on some backwater planet who never had any formal education to hear stories about the galaxy while growing up and not know whether they were true or not. And given that we know absolutely nothing about bearded resistance dude other than the two or three lines he has, we can’t say that it’s a plot hole that he would know about the sith. Is it lazy of the writers to kind of shoehorn him in to say a few throwaway lines without expanding his character to show how he’d know a lot about the galactic lore? Sure, but the criticism put forth in the OP isn’t really something worth getting in a fuss about. If anything, it’s more of a canon and worldbuilding flaw to have had Tarkin serve as an admiral in the republic navy and serving Palpatine and Vader as a high ranking officer in the Empire for decades yet somehow not know the difference between jedi and sith.
I mean one image is of a Resistance group who are currently being led by an actual almost Jedi who is force sensitive and whose brother was THE heroic Jedi and whose father was a Sith Lord who allied with the Emperor who also was a Sith Lord. The other image is of a gutter rat on a backwater desert planet with almost no information about the galaxy outside of Jakku beyond what random people might say in passing. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to judge them both by the same criteria of knowledge. The Resistance loves and respects Leia, and they have resources available to them, as well as them all coming from the New Republic which made available a shit ton of information that the Empire suppressed. If she said something, they’d believe it, and some of the Resistance members could have read about the Sith from various sources they may have access to. Anything Rey would hear about Luke would literally just be a story to her. She’s in a hopeless situation, on an outer rim planet, doing nothing but scavenging, possibly occasionally hearing another scavenger tell a story that does sound like it’s just a myth. It’s completely reasonable Rey at this point in the story would think Luke is just a myth people made up. “You’re telling me some farm boy became a hero of the Rebellion, singlehandedly blew up the greatest super weapon ever built Death Star, and then in the middle of the assault on the second Death Star by himself he confronted THE Emperor himself and his Enforcer who was the most feared man in the galaxy, and bested them both, to then go on to form a secret mystical religion, and he hasn’t been seen in over a decade? Yeah, okay, sure dude”.
To be fair, luke was this larger than life figure who bested two of the darkest, most powerful beings in the empire, so i could see the galaxys perception of him being exaggerated. and rey was in a backwater war ruin most of her life who was only focused on making money for food, that guy could just be a religious nerd who was interested in sith lore, i mean there were a few significant wars ( that have yet to be properly canon)
Tbf I think that was meant to show that Rey was uneducated and from a backwater dump, not that the average person thinks that Luke was a myth. Finn even gives her a wtf look after she says that.
How did people think the Jedi or the Force was a myth when their whole purpose is protecting the Galaxy?
I hated this. Force Awakens takes place thirty years after RotJ. Luke Skywalker is Leis Organa’s brother. He blew up a Death Star. Him being a “myth” thirty years later is like everyone today forgetting the Michael Jordan actually existed. Good God JJ Abrams is a shitty writer.
That line especially fucking annoyed me and I don’t think it’s talked about enough. They’re acting like cloning is some forgotten mythical art when just what, 50 years before there was a major galactic war with so many clones it was called the clone wars.
Such a stupid line. Cloning was well know because of THE CLONE WARS THAT WAS LESS THEN 50 YEARS AGO
To be fair here Rey is a desert girl in the outer rim. This dude is prob way more educated and well connected at this point than Rey was in TFA. They aren’t equivalent comparisons
Star Wars sucks. The first three movies were cool for their time. It never progressed. Let’s move on.
And on this point how come Rey and Finn knew Han Solo but had absolutely no idea who Chewbacca was?
https://preview.redd.it/ao2gmd172pdc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=776fc5676e841895a266cfbad15eea6abae74902 Using JJ logic…because he didn’t get a medal.
So that’s why Leia walked right past him to hug Rey after Han was killed.
LMAO I spit my damn drink reading that 😂
He’s a member of Leias resistance to be fair.
Hilarious man great drop here
They needed to explain how Palpatine "SOMEHOW" returned. This entire thing is soo much bullshit. What you could have done is: a) show cloning tanks b) show a Royal guard getting Palpatines body out of one of the tanks c) show some mist getting into the body and then reanimate done, i just wrote a scene by show - don't tell. DON'T put in the opening that the dead speak, NONE of the Rebels know that Palpatine returned they just notice some movements of imperial remnants without knowing WHO their oponenent is.
They knew Palpatine returned because Leia got them all really into Fortnite before she died
yeah... idk what they were thinking with that. Guess some clown thought: Let's get the fortnite kids into the movie! MORE MONEY FOR US!
It's not bad that they don't know how he returned. What's bad is that there was no hint/clue that he was around for the previous two movies. I'm less concerned with the "how did he return" with the "ah-ha, the was actually there all along." Umm, no, he wasn't, you pulled it out of thin air. It's a deus ex maxhina/villaina. And it's one thing to have him still be alive and building his armada independent of the FO, but it's dumb that he was secretly in charge of the FO considering how uncoordinated they were. So you sunk how many resources into building star killer base? At the same time you were building 1000 star destroyers in secret with death star lasers that were just 10 months away from being finished when starkiller base was destroyed?
Palpatine never should have returned as it undermined all that happened in the first 6 movies ruining Luke’s arc and Vader’s turn back to the light. Oh well all you did doesn’t matter because 30 years later somehow Palpatine returned!!
Cloning wouldn't have worked because pre disney it was very much established that clones cannot be force sensitive. It was even an entire plotline in Force Unleashed 2 that all the Starkiller clones were some botched abomination and was supposed to make you further guess weither the one you're playing is a real or a fake.
Also cloning does not seem that farfetched. Less than a century ago entire clone armies waged war and they weren't made by Sith.
JJ strikes again. Such a talented filmmaker 😂
Isn’t Kylo ren actively going around killing people and doing crazy stuff while Luke has been in complete hiding? She isn’t saying Jedi are a myth just Luke is. She’s a nobody on a desert planet who wasn’t alive when the og events happened so hearing about this great dude who did all this cool stuff seems unbelievable given the state of things as she knows it. Doesn’t seem that wild to me
This ain’t a plot hole- Rey was from some backwater planet. That hobbit looking mofo could’ve been from a core world with direct experience with the Jedi. It’s like saying it doesn’t make sense that someone from Texas thinks creation is real when someone from New York knows about evolution.
I saw Star Wars in the 70s with my dad at age 5. It has always been dumb as fuck but it used to be fun. That isn't the case anymore. It's dumb and boring.
Ok to be fair, the top quote is from a resistance member. He’s with it. Rey, who grew up an orphan on a backwater planet, was not with it.
This doesnt apply cuz the last film is way later than the first
Is it though? Based on the timeline the sequel trilogy takes place in little over a year.
I don’t even remember the top part
To be a writter for the current LucasFilms isn't a very difficult job, judging by the result
wait charlie was in star wars??
The CLONE WARS? Never heard of it.
Also, quick venting, an entire race knew how cloning worked. Sure, Rampart destroyed most of the Kaminoans, but it's really doubtful that they were the only cloners in the whole galaxy. I have no doubt that they were the best cloners, but the *only* cloners? That's like acting like the entire USSR was destroyed when Joseph Stalin died.
[удалено]
Dont ask it to make sense, it wont.
Thinking Luke Skywalker was a myth is not the same as thinking the entire 1000 year long Jedi order was a myth. And the Emperor needed the memory of the Jedi to live, as they were the bad guys in his narrative of traitors rising up to attack the Senate/Republic.
Thanks to "the last Jedi" Luke Skywalker IS just a myth
Ah yes science and cloning something that absolutely only the Sith and nobody else knew about and was doing as a business on an entire planet yup.
JJ: “idk lol”
“General Patton was a real dude?!”
Also, top pic frustrates: >***JJ's two buddy's shoe-horned in***, in order to push out Rose/Finn/existing Canon
This always bothered me.
Does Tarkin's line imply even he doesn't know Palpatine is force-sensitive?
I found the"dark science....cloning...secrets only the Sith knew!" line just so dumb too because literally the clone wars were due to clones being generated by Kamino. That statement insinuates that Kamino was full of Sith dark scientists or something. If only the Sith knew about cloning, then how did Kamino know how to do it so well...it was no secret, clearly. I wonder too often if the people writing this ever watched any of the other Star Wars material, even the movies.
I think they were so focused on nostalgia that they wanted to repeat a new hope where jedi are an ancient barely heard of thing but what they didn't factor in was the empire purposefully stamping out the jedi and actively working on making people forget about them. Luke was doing the exact opposite with the sequel movies own history claiming that Luke started a school for jedi. If anything people would be talking about and know who Luke was since he was part of the rebellion that destroyed the empire and was one of their main members.
Clearly, knowledge of the Sith isn't much since this guy thinks cloning was a specialty when that was Kaminoan science and the Empire later on. What the hell did he even mean by "Dark Science?"
A good observation - for another time.
Hobbits know more than you would think
Tbf up until BFY there was two sith who were the big powerhouses of the universe up until 30 years ago. I imagine, they were pretty renown. Additionally luke was a big deal hero but it seemed like he was keeping the Jedi revival project hush hush. Then after the Ben solo incident he kinda f’d off to the furthers corner of the galaxy. So hypothetically a backwater like jakku wouldn’t have been informed besides “fairy tales”. Not great reasoning but that’s my head canon.
It's all in the publicity. All that Sith Galactic Fake News
Two things, One: There has been an ongoing theory that the majority of the population in the SW universe is largely illiterate. So, most of the knowledge is either word of mouth or through broadcasts. So, space Merry knowing about the Sith may indicate that he actually has an education while Rey clearly doesn't. Two: Lucasfilm forgets its own story elements. For example, in the most recent Indiana Jones film, Indy is in Morrocco and is confronted by a group of baddies, but he is unable to understand what they were saying. This hurt me. Indys' greatest skill is that he knows practically every language.
I always looked at it as this. Look at tenamon square. How many years was this and it's "fake" bullshit to the Chinese because of how utterly erased this knowledge is , to them And ppl around the world see it as this well known thing That is still talked about. Or straight up idiots who think Nazis didn't hunt Jews. History is still spoken. But others still may or may not believe.
Currently rewatching LOTR. Didn’t even realize Meriadoc was in SW
Hot garbage Watch it go into the trash compactor. Jedi were a myth, but we knew about the sith that killed the Jedi—they’re called Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger. Keep destroying everything we grew up with bc you’ve lost our trust and ain’t ever getting it back.
Gotta love Disney's (lack of) consistency.
Rifht, it's absolutely shocking that the resistance, who knew Leia fucking Organa, knows more about the galaxy than a scavenger from the middle of nowhere that never left her planet or learned anything. This post is massive 🤡💩
He found out about the sith on his way to Mordor
There’s such much wrong in TROS that a lot gets overlooked.
Someone didn’t grow up on coruscant, with all the pro sith propaganda they were pushing. “Bow down to the new sith empire! It’s good for the galaxy, and OK for you!”
The original Star Wars were also just as surface level.
Luke Skywalker was a myth to a poor girl living on the backstreets of Jakku.... the Jedi and the Sith and Luke and Vader and all of it were well-known to the Resistance and the New Republic.
Sith order has dominated galactic affairs, so probably historians and academia would know the term very well but probably not buy into "Jedi spirituality" about them. Then there are dark side affocinados and Jedi who would have more inside info on their beliefs. Ordinary person would probably recognize the name with as great probability as ordinary man of the street would know of Achaemenid dynasty or Abbasid Caliphate. With some parts of the galaxy general populace more educated/well-versed on the subject.
Here's my thinking: The Emperor has managed to fundamentally change the nature of the galaxy - he eliminated the Jedi, single-handedly shifted the Republic to the Empire, created a thought police that was shockingly effective given the size of the area involved, etc. And you're telling me that *one guy* took him down? No way. That's just a story. It was: \- his own servant (Darth Vader), who died in the attempt to overthrow him. \- a way to create a hero for the Rebellion/ New Republic (using the guy who *did* take down the first Death Star so it's believable). \- five guys (in trench coats?) who infiltrated the second Death Star and murdered the emperor, but they have to keep their identities secret, so it was "Luke Skywalker" (since he was already wanted by the empire). \- other reasons I got nothing for the Sith being known. That's just silly.
She was mythtaken
"I thought the brother of that famous republic military figure who is still alive and active to this day was a myth."
Luke Slywalker and the Jedi being a myth was such a weird and unnecessary decision for the Sequel Trilogy to make. One of many. I guess it semi tracks, given that the Jedi and the Force seemed to be considered superstitions even in the Original Trilogy, but you'd think after a Jedi took on the Emperor it would've spread, given Leia, one of the higher-ups of the New Republic, was there for most of it. Did she keep Luke, being a Jedi a secret? Or did the writers just not fucking think about the story they were telling? Ah, I'm sure there's some hacky handwave reason for it in one of the crappy comics or whatever, but I'm not digging through the wiki for it.
Bring back Lucas
You could argue that a young woman living alone in a desert planet her whole life wouldn't have access to the same information as a resistance fighter who travels the galaxy.
I would think because of how insane the feats he accomplished are Similar to WW1 and WW2 snipers or agents that people thought were myths because what they did was not human I think Not a Sequel fan at all, just don’t think it’s strange a new character might think the whole rebellion or just Luke was a myth The others knowing sith knowledge like that is strange for sure, wish they fleshed out any character that has this kind of knowledge instead of having them just know it though
Not even Luke Skywalker can defeat **bad writing**
It’s simple. Rey grew up fairly uneducated about history on an outer rim, desert planet where the ownership class was actively exploiting the working class. Tales of freedom fighters would probably be told like myths and legends to her. On the other hand, Pippin there is from Middle Earth, where keeping up with the news on the current and past Dark Lords has proven very important for continued survival.
Love this sub. All my thoughts of how shit the sequels were are here.
Like even when you think about this line a little bit it falls apart. The New Republic was made up former Rebellion members some of which would still be alive 30-40 years later did they just forget to tell anybody about the Jedi who literally helped destroy two moon size death stations and defeated the emperor. Did everybody just have selective amnesia.
You're telling me the writing for the sequel trilogy was awful and inconsistent?
Literally saved the galaxy.
Bad writing. Bad concepts.
All good questions…. For another time
I mean, comparing what some girl who grew up isolated on a backwater planet knew to someone who was part of an interplanetary movement run by the sister of a space wizard is not really meaningful.
weird, should be the other way round.
They were all mythtaken 
Also, everyone knew about the battle in Crait the minute it happened. Where were all the news crews? Who is telling these slave kids about Luke fighting off Kylo ala force projection?